0:00

This is the BBC. This

0:03

podcast is supported by advertising

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outside the UK.

0:07

BBC Sounds.

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Music, radio, podcasts. Before

0:13

we start, a warning that

0:15

this episode contains strong language.

0:20

Good afternoon, I'm Kayla McLaughlin, the Communications

0:23

Director with the Department of Corrections. There's

0:26

about to be an execution. A

0:28

crowd of press is gathering on what looks

0:30

like a large village green, with

0:33

neatly cut grass and electons set

0:35

up on one side. It's a lovely

0:37

sunny scene. You could bring a picnic.

0:40

Until you remember, a death chamber

0:43

is across the road from the field, and

0:45

a man is waiting to die in a holding

0:47

cell right next to it.

0:50

Foreign media

0:52

aren't ever allowed into the room to witness a United

0:54

States legal homicide, so

0:57

we've arranged for local journalist John

0:59

Coke to cover it for us.

1:01

John Coke, ma'am. I

1:04

am yours. What do you want me to do?

1:06

Hop on one foot and pat my head?

1:09

John Coke is a character.

1:12

He's a death row reporting veteran

1:14

who has seen 82 executions, and he has a nickname.

1:18

Yeah, I somewhere picked up the

1:21

Dr. Death thing. That was radio network

1:23

guys.

1:24

Around three o'clock,

1:27

more officials arrive. Smart

1:29

suits, shiny shoes, briefcases,

1:31

lanyards, all suited

1:34

and booted for the office, except

1:36

they're in a field. They turn

1:38

up in a convoy of pristine white vans

1:41

and stride up to the podium. The

1:44

press pack assemble. The

1:46

atmosphere is tense.

1:47

You probably are all wondering

1:49

why I danced around here. So John

1:52

lightens the mood by grabbing the mic. I

1:54

would like to make an announcement. I

1:57

am not running for president. At 6

2:07

p.m. today, per Florida law, the

2:10

department will carry out the sentence of the court in the

2:13

state of Florida versus Darrell Brian

2:15

Barwick. Barwick woke

2:17

up this morning at 4.15 a.m. This

2:20

field is not in Texas where

2:22

we spent a lot of time. This

2:24

is Florida and the execution

2:27

of Darrell

2:27

Brian Barwick. Police department are looking into

2:29

Monday evening stabbing death of 24 year

2:32

old Rebecca Wentz. It

2:34

was evident that a tremendous growth took place. We're

2:36

here because

2:36

while other states are pausing executions,

2:39

Florida has just restarted.

2:43

Throughout the previous episodes, we've

2:45

considered some reasons why there have

2:47

been fewer executions in recent

2:49

years. But in this episode,

2:52

what might change that?

2:53

On Monday, Governor Ron DeSantis

2:56

signed the death warrant for 56 year old

2:58

Darrell Barwick.

2:59

I'm Libby Hadock. I'm from BBC

3:01

Radio 4.

3:02

This is Killing Death

3:04

Row.

3:05

I prefer to speak

3:08

living and living. We

3:10

are

3:18

the last meal at 9.15 a.m. A

3:21

fried chicken, a brownies

3:24

cheese, black, soybean rice, cornbread, ice

3:27

cream and a cola. He

3:30

met with a spiritual advisor earlier today. Can

3:33

you describe his demeanor? I

3:35

would say common and good spirits. Thank

3:39

you.

3:40

Just before 5, journalist

3:43

John Cope gets ready to board the bus

3:45

that takes all witnesses into the prison. If

3:47

you all have any of the items,

3:49

please place them into your vehicle because

3:52

they know of and cannot be inside the institution. If

3:54

you have any firearms, knives, narcotics,

3:57

alcohol, prescription drugs, personal handcuffs,

3:59

keys, cell phones,

3:59

smart watch money over $60

4:02

camera audio or video recording device

4:05

PDA other recording devices P38

4:08

can opener computer storage devices

4:10

MP3 player USB cord matches

4:12

or big lighters please place them into

4:15

your vehicle at this time

4:16

it's

4:22

called Q-Wing where the death chamber

4:24

is and my wing was right next to

4:26

it my

4:29

name is Ralph Wright I'm Florida's 27th

4:32

death row exoneree here in the state of Florida

4:34

and a survivor of death row under

4:36

a wrongful conviction experience

4:39

Ralph Wright was once in the same

4:41

jail where Darrell Barwick is waiting to

4:43

die there were

4:45

several of them while I was there and each

4:48

one you know you get that same

4:50

feeling ringing in the bottom of your gut

4:53

and your mind circling out of control

4:55

all over again each and every time

4:58

we're talking to Ralph Wright because

5:01

he embodies a key reason why

5:03

death row convictions are harder to

5:05

secure as Nick's honoree

5:08

he spent time on death row had

5:10

his case come back to court and was

5:12

freed Ralph was

5:15

arrested for the murder of his ex girlfriend

5:17

and their 15-month-old son in 2007

5:19

that

5:20

was on the road driving

5:22

a truck and I was pulled into

5:24

a place to deliver a load and as

5:27

I'm walking in with the paperwork I

5:29

guess it was a SWAT team up there comes out

5:31

with guns pointing at me yelling get on the

5:33

ground put your hands up all this stuff

5:38

the only thing you can think is whoa

5:41

whoa what is going on

5:43

station at McDill is

5:45

now standing trial for the 2007 double murder

5:47

of his ex girlfriend

5:49

and their baby boy I just

5:51

sat there when I heard the guilty verdict and

5:53

I thought oh my god that I just become

5:55

a convicted felon

6:04

We're back outside in the bright light

6:06

and bustle of the prison field. The

6:08

same field Ralph could hear from the inside.

6:12

The field Darrell Barwick may be

6:14

able to hear. He's been on death

6:16

row for 36 years and today

6:19

he'll be leaving it. A group

6:21

of people are congregating.

6:23

My name is Brian Sieber. I'm an attorney

6:25

here in Florida. I am adamantly against

6:27

the death penalty. Brian

6:29

has traveled here on a coach with

6:31

a group of school kids from his church. They're

6:34

here to protest about the execution

6:36

and they've brought a keyboard, a sound system

6:39

and a large black bell to run.

6:42

The building is right over there someplace. Over

6:45

there you see where that big white tower is in the distance?

6:48

That's where the rest of death row is and

6:50

that's where this bell that's going to be rung, that

6:52

the sound will make its way all the way over there

6:55

and those inmates there in death row will be able to hear

6:57

that we're here today because of the execution. So

7:00

they know we're here.

7:01

I'm Arianna and I'm a lovely.

7:04

I feel like I'm a nice

7:06

man and no one deserves to die. Across

7:11

the field from Brian's anti-death penalty

7:13

coach trip is a designated

7:16

space for people who do believe

7:18

in execution.

7:19

Today that space is occupied by just

7:22

two people, settled in camping chairs.

7:25

My producer Anna Meissel, how do

7:27

I chat to them?

7:28

I'm from the BBC, I'm a journalist. I'm

7:31

making a podcast about the death

7:34

penalty in the US.

7:37

I was wondering what I can do a quick

7:39

chat with you.

7:40

I really love them all. Would

7:44

you mind me asking why? I'm just

7:46

kind of proud of my whole purpose. Okay.

7:50

No, no, of course I respect that, thank you. And

7:53

yourself? No, I really want to thank you. Okay,

7:55

no problem. Thank you.

7:56

It's a shame. You want to hear

7:58

it. You want to hear it.

7:59

hear both sides. But at this

8:02

particular execution, one set

8:04

of voices are much louder than the other.

8:06

Amen, I say to you today,

8:10

you will be with me in paradise.

8:15

The Gospel of the Lord.

8:26

I am Maria Deliberado with Floridians

8:28

for Alternatives to the Death Penalty. And

8:31

yet again, here we stand, third

8:33

time in 70 days.

8:44

Ralph, could you hear it when you were on the inside?

8:47

Yes, we could hear the bell in there. And there's many

8:49

of those inmates today that correspond

8:51

with family members and friends and let them

8:54

know that they did hear the

8:56

bell being told out there that day.

9:00

The vans are coming back and

9:02

John and the other reporters jump off

9:04

to do their broadcast.

9:06

One

9:08

unfortunate journalist asked

9:11

him in his pockets before he got to the

9:13

jail. He ate me and I asked

9:15

him, and he said, I didn't put my fucking phone

9:18

in my fucking car.

9:20

Shame on you. He's still moaning

9:23

as the press conference begins. I'll

9:25

give the phone, just hold the phone, anybody.

9:27

Good evening again. I'm Kayla McLaughlin,

9:29

communications director for the Florida Department of Corrections.

9:33

The sentence of the state of Florida versus Daryl

9:35

Brian Barwick was carried out at 614

9:37

p.m. The execution took

9:40

place without incident. Other

9:42

grubs joined as the officials pack up

9:44

and the lectern is taken down. So

9:47

how was it?

9:48

I can honestly say routine. The

9:50

man fell asleep and he was killed. Next

9:55

time maybe. I'll buy the snacks.

10:01

He was given the opportunity for last words.

10:03

He gave quite a few. He apologized

10:06

to the family and said he didn't know

10:08

why he did what he did. And that's when

10:10

the process to kill the condemned person

10:13

begins. And

10:15

by 6'10", 6'11", you could see the

10:18

bluish lips and the gray and ashen

10:20

face.

10:21

And how are you? Are

10:23

you okay?

10:25

You know, I watched

10:27

a man die. It's

10:30

never easy to do that, but

10:33

look at what he did. There

10:35

has to be some consequences for

10:38

what these people do. And if it's a lawful

10:40

execution, if it's a lawful conviction, what

10:43

can I say? If I

10:45

say, no, I don't believe in it, then I don't believe in the

10:47

Republic.

10:51

A lawful conviction, lawful

10:53

execution. Justice for

10:55

Rebecca Wint, Carol Barwick's

10:58

victim. He chased around her

11:00

home and stabbed her 37 times. For

11:05

John Kirk, for official Kayla

11:07

McLaughlin, the job is done.

11:10

Supporters would say the system is working,

11:13

as long as it's the right man, of course.

11:17

Ralph Wright was completely cleared of

11:19

killing his ex-girlfriend and his son. He

11:21

spent eight years in prison, three

11:24

of them on death row.

11:25

He

11:28

found out he'd been cleared while watching

11:31

the local TV news in his

11:33

cell. Here's a look at more state

11:35

government action from this week.

11:37

Well, I happened to look up at the screen and I

11:40

saw my name. And then I tried

11:42

reading what was after my name.

11:44

Well, wait a minute. And they'd already switched

11:47

to another story.

11:48

And the question now for some is,

11:50

what's next? So after

11:52

that, I start hearing all the yelling and

11:54

hollering of other inmates. You know, Ralph

11:56

Wright, they did him wrong. He going

11:59

home.

11:59

free.

12:01

What was that like getting out? You know the

12:03

walk to freedom.

12:04

Well even

12:07

though they all know that you're an innocent man

12:09

and you're being released having been exonerated

12:11

by the highest court in the state, they

12:14

still have their procedures they have to go through.

12:17

You're handcuffed and they go through

12:19

the same process of putting the shackles,

12:21

the leg irons on my ankles and the

12:23

belly chain around my waist. They

12:26

took me all the way down to the room where

12:28

I was changing out and I look over

12:30

and I see a pair of jeans and a shirt and you

12:32

know civilian attire sitting there that my sister

12:34

brought for me. The assistant

12:36

warden and I think two of his captains

12:39

came out and they shook my hand, apologized

12:42

to me and they actually

12:44

carried my boxes out to my sister's

12:46

car for me and walked me out, told

12:49

me to take care of myself and that

12:51

was the end of that day there.

12:56

What was the first thing you did on

12:58

seeing your sister?

12:59

Of course a big hug and then

13:01

you couldn't get to the car fast enough. We

13:04

get in the car and start driving home. I think

13:07

I lasted probably 15 to 20 minutes before I found

13:11

myself balling like a little girl. You know

13:14

you just couldn't contain it anymore and

13:16

you overcome

13:18

by it.

13:20

Ralph is a free man. He starts

13:23

life again. Professor

13:26

Debra Denno is an expert in the death penalty.

13:29

She describes herself as against the lethal

13:31

injection but not against the death

13:33

penalty in theory. She thinks

13:36

stories like Ralph's may well affect the

13:38

future of execution in the US.

13:40

A huge factor affecting

13:43

public opinion is the fact

13:45

that the death penalty carries the risk of executing

13:48

an innocent person and since 1973

13:50

at least 192 people have been wrongly

13:55

convicted and sentenced to death in

13:57

the United States. And what I mean by

14:00

wrongly convicted is that they have later

14:02

been exonerated or found to be innocent.

14:05

In the modern era, since 1973, there certainly

14:07

have been at least 30 individuals who have been

14:12

put to death, who officials

14:14

think have been innocent. I

14:17

think the fact that we have executed

14:20

innocent people and that so

14:22

many people have been exonerated is one

14:24

of the biggest factors affecting the

14:26

public's opinion on the death

14:29

penalty. The United States has

14:31

founded on the belief that we would

14:33

prefer to have guilty

14:35

people go free than innocent

14:37

people be convicted, and certainly we don't

14:40

want innocent people to die. I

14:42

think wrongful convictions are a key

14:44

driver in changing the future of

14:47

the death penalty in this country because

14:49

even people who are for the death

14:51

penalty aren't

14:53

for wrongful convictions and

14:55

all of the problems associated with them.

14:58

Professor Paul Cassel supports the

15:00

death penalty and he disagrees

15:03

with Debra Denno. He thinks

15:05

exonerees are a diminishing issue

15:07

for the future of death row.

15:09

The number of exonerations in America

15:12

is already a tiny fraction of cases.

15:15

And when you look at the march of technology,

15:18

DNA testing and other sorts

15:20

of crime solving techniques, I think it's going

15:22

to play less of a role in the future. So

15:25

I don't think the exoneration issue is a

15:27

significant part of the debate here in

15:29

the United States. We

15:33

followed the story of another man who is desperate

15:36

to leave their prison,

15:37

not by the death chamber, but

15:39

through the security gates to the exit.

15:41

And that was placed on Death Watch and I got an execution

15:44

date. They moved me to a special section

15:46

with everybody

15:47

that did death. Ivan Cantu felt

15:49

guilty of double murder. We

15:51

went to see him on death row in episode

15:53

two. He's due

15:55

to die soon and he's appealing against

15:57

his conviction.

15:59

He said he

16:02

didn't do it, although he has

16:05

lost various appeals

16:05

already. And yet,

16:07

apart from his lawyers, there

16:09

are only a few others who support and

16:12

prove. His

16:14

mum is Sylvia Cantu, and

16:16

she's campaigning for his release.

16:19

When I drive home from Austin,

16:22

Ivan's attorney had tried to call, but

16:24

the call dropped. And

16:27

then right after that, Ivan called

16:30

and said, Mom,

16:32

did you

16:32

hear? Well, it was a great feeling

16:35

to be able to tell her the news. It

16:37

was like the kind of weight

16:39

was

16:39

off of both of our shoulders.

16:43

Ivan's news is that seven days

16:45

before his execution date, the

16:47

court has granted him a stay, while

16:50

it looks at what his lawyers claim is

16:52

new evidence. After

16:57

a lot of toing and froing with the prison,

16:59

we finally managed to get another conversation

17:01

with him. He is delighted

17:04

about the stay, because the final preparations

17:06

for his death had been underway.

17:10

Fourteen days prior to your execution,

17:13

you're filling out your package as to who you would

17:15

want to witness your execution, who your spiritual

17:17

advisor's going to be, the money that you

17:19

have on the account and where's it going to go, and you're

17:22

determining, you know, what's going to happen to your remains.

17:25

It's a day by day challenge within your mind

17:27

of just a range of emotions.

17:29

Now, Cantu has more time. The

17:32

execution countdown clock stops.

17:36

Ivan and Ralph's cases are very

17:38

different. Ivan wants

17:41

a retrial to test what he claims

17:43

is new evidence. Ralph

17:45

was cleared because the Supreme Court

17:48

recognised there was no evidence to tie

17:50

him to the crime. What

17:53

was the hardest thing about

17:55

being on death row?

17:56

My children. My children

17:58

are very young, teenage. age years at that point

18:01

and just keep wondering

18:03

every day how they're doing, are they okay, are

18:05

they safe, are they having any problems, is

18:08

there something they need help with, something I can

18:10

talk to them about. That I would

18:12

say was the hardest part of those eight and a half

18:14

years being away from them.

18:17

Ralph has been out since 2017

18:20

and now works as a tour bus roadie.

18:23

He has a fiancé who spent 25

18:25

years inside for something she didn't

18:27

do. They have a lot in

18:29

common. He also campaigns

18:32

to abolish the death penalty. When

18:34

you look at the numbers across the country,

18:37

you know, we keep proving it over

18:39

and over again that, you know, we will

18:42

make mistakes, we cannot get this right.

18:45

But to quote an old friend of mine,

18:47

you know, you can free an innocent man from

18:49

a jail cell,

18:51

but you can never free anyone from the grave.

18:55

Ralph is a powerful voice in

18:57

the debate. Doubt is the enemy

18:59

of death row convictions and innocence

19:02

cases like his are thought to

19:04

be another potential nail in the execution,

19:07

Pimfin. We've now looked

19:10

at all those nails in detail. A

19:12

lack of drugs to carry out the sentence,

19:15

arguments about pain and cruelty,

19:18

the cost and the racial disparities.

19:22

The lower number of executions suggest

19:24

that these could be factors having an impact.

19:28

This slow demise, if that's what

19:30

it turns out to be, angers many

19:32

victims' families. Take

19:35

Robin Amanda Kelly, whose brother

19:37

and sister were murdered as they worked in

19:39

the family's shop. Do you think

19:41

the death penalty is dying?

19:43

Yes, I do. And I think that's really bad.

19:46

Evil is winning on earth.

19:49

The death penalty is not a deterrent. The

19:51

death penalty is divine justice. And

19:54

if you remove that justice piece, you

19:57

are harming homicide survivors.

20:00

Our voices seldom get heard because

20:03

there's that other side of the coin,

20:05

what I call the Satan coin, the anti-death

20:08

penalty, the anti-execution, the

20:10

anti-justice people. Those are the folks

20:12

that are more concerned about

20:15

a cold-blooded killer than

20:17

the innocent lives

20:19

of a good society.

20:21

But despite Robin Amanda's fears,

20:24

there are a handful of states who do

20:26

keep the cogs of death returning. It's

20:29

only five states this year, but

20:31

Alabama, Florida, Missouri,

20:33

Oklahoma and Texas have all executed

20:36

inmates. Former

20:38

prison officer Randy Workman is from

20:41

one of them. He's the warden

20:43

from Oklahoma we've heard throughout

20:45

the series. Do you think

20:47

Oklahoma will move away from the

20:49

death penalty?

20:51

No, no. No.

20:53

I don't. The Old Testament's an eye for

20:55

mine. This is a conservative

20:57

Bible Belt state. You know, a lot of these southern

20:59

states are pro-execution. A lot of

21:02

northern states are not. It's

21:04

kind of like, you know, Trump

21:06

versus Biden, almost. Same

21:08

dividing lines, conservative, liberal. Right

21:11

in the middle. And

21:14

so it's a constant chess game.

21:18

This constant chess game tells

21:20

us everything about the future of death

21:22

row. Look at Florida, where

21:24

we started this episode. There

21:26

were no executions for three years, but

21:28

there's been a recent flurry with six

21:31

in the space of a few months. Republican

21:34

Governor Ron DeSantis has overseen

21:36

a change in the law, which makes it easier

21:39

to carry out an execution. You

21:41

now only need eight members of a jury

21:43

to agree to the death penalty in Florida. It

21:46

used to be all 12.

21:48

So I was working on the book

21:50

between 2016 and 2020. And

21:53

in that time, there was a real decline

21:56

in the death penalty, even in states

21:58

like Texas and Florida that has been in the state. historically

22:00

have executed a lot of people.

22:02

Author Maurice Shamar has been

22:04

our expert guide throughout this podcast.

22:07

He highlights what a change in political

22:10

climate can mean for death row.

22:12

But as I was finishing the book, and

22:14

as it was coming out in 2021,

22:17

Donald Trump was president and he

22:20

set 13 executions, and

22:22

this was the most federal executions

22:24

that any president had overseen in decades.

22:26

I'm calling immediately for the death

22:28

penalty for drug dealers

22:29

and human trafficking. Take a look

22:32

at every country in this world that

22:35

doesn't have a problem with drugs. They

22:37

have a very strong death penalty

22:39

for the drug. I will ask Congress to pass legislation

22:42

ensuring that drug smugglers

22:45

and human traffickers receive

22:47

the death penalty.

22:49

And it signaled that the

22:51

death penalty was back as a political issue,

22:53

as something that governors and presidents focused

22:56

on. And so where I had once

22:58

said the death penalty was falling,

23:00

now I think it's in this moment where there's a

23:03

real question

23:03

mark on whether it's going to rise again. Do

23:05

you think there will be such a day where

23:07

we'll see the complete sort of end of the death

23:09

penalty in the States? I think

23:11

what is more likely to happen is

23:14

we stop actually

23:17

executing anyone and we maintain the death

23:19

penalty just on the books as

23:21

almost like a theory. So this

23:23

is what happens already in California

23:26

and Pennsylvania and Ohio.

23:28

Lots and lots of people are sentenced to death, but these

23:30

States just don't carry out any executions.

23:33

And this reality will spread across

23:35

the country where there is the death penalty in theory,

23:37

but we've all just in our guts as Americans

23:40

collectively sort of decided it's not

23:43

worth actually executing anyone. That

23:45

turns our stomach. We're just going to live

23:48

with that ambivalence. And if executions happen,

23:51

they're going to be incredibly rare, if at all. And

23:53

so maybe there will be a day with no executions, but

23:55

that day may come before

23:57

we abandon the death penalty as an idea.

24:00

because as a symbolic idea in America,

24:02

it still holds such strong purchase.

24:05

Professor Debra Denno says the next

24:07

year might see the death penalty

24:10

firmly under the spotlight.

24:12

The politics behind the death penalty

24:14

and the interest that the public has in it

24:16

ebbs and flows. It depends on

24:19

presidential elections and local elections,

24:21

etc. It really is very much a politically

24:24

driven issue in the United States. You

24:27

know, it's expected to be an issue

24:29

in the 2024 election, perhaps

24:31

in a way that it hasn't been in any

24:33

presidential election recently.

24:38

Throughout this series, we've seen

24:40

how so many factors might lead

24:42

to fewer death row convictions. And

24:45

now we can see how a new political

24:47

climate might swing the pendulum

24:50

the other way. Maurice

24:52

thinks the people of the US might park

24:55

the death penalty in reality, but

24:57

not as an idea. It

24:59

lingers as the final

25:00

justice. The old testament

25:02

is an eye for an eye.

25:04

An eye for an eye. That

25:07

hold on some parts of the US means

25:09

there are those looking for new ways to keep

25:11

the system alive. For example,

25:14

states may decide the lethal injection

25:17

is a problem, but rather than abandon

25:20

execution, they adapt.

25:22

My name is Joel Zivett and I'm

25:25

an associate professor of anesthesiology

25:27

and surgery at Emory University School

25:29

of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia.

25:32

You'll remember anti-death penalty academic

25:35

Joel from episode four. I

25:37

asked him what he thought might happen

25:39

next. What's new, I think

25:41

now, is an attempt to execute people

25:44

using nitrogen gas. So a

25:46

kind of gas execution, which of course

25:48

raises all manner of uncomfortable

25:51

memories of the use of gas

25:54

to kill. And I'm

25:56

very suspicious of this. I think it's not

25:58

going to work. It's not going to work. work in

26:00

a way that the state claims, but lethal

26:02

injection will hang around as long as it takes

26:05

for an alternative method of execution

26:08

that will mollify the public and

26:10

satisfy the courts.

26:12

Since

26:19

we recorded this interview, the

26:21

state of Alabama has now

26:24

created a protocol for how to kill

26:26

someone using nitrogen gas. It

26:29

could happen. And in Idaho,

26:31

there's a new law too. Tonight

26:34

Idaho now joins four other states who have

26:36

execution by firing squad as

26:38

an option. The state is spending

26:41

thousands renovating a special

26:43

cell in which the shots will be fired.

26:52

We started this series talking

26:54

about the 2,400 inmates

26:57

in US Penitentiaries waiting

26:59

to die. And among them is

27:01

double murderer Ivan Cantu, sentenced 21

27:05

years ago. When I first

27:07

met him, he had a death date. Time

27:10

was running out. Then that

27:12

date was put on hold while he

27:14

waited to hear if he had a chance of another

27:17

appeal. I heard from him

27:19

again. He was relaxed and more hopeful.

27:22

He was making plans for after his release.

27:25

My mom wants to go to a butterfly

27:27

museum in Branson, Missouri.

27:30

When she shows me the pictures where we talk about

27:32

that, I see her light up like a light bulb because that

27:34

was one of the last places that she went with her

27:36

mother and my grandmother before she passed away. And

27:39

so that's where we're going to go. It's

27:41

going to be wonderful, you know, just to be able

27:43

to,

27:44

you know, be in a room or a place

27:46

outside of prison, you

27:49

know, with my mom in the free world, you

27:51

know, being free.

27:53

A few weeks later, an email

27:56

from Ivan's lawyer, Gina Bunn.

28:00

so much for jumping on the phone with

28:02

us. What happened? Well,

28:04

back on August 23rd,

28:06

the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals,

28:09

which is the highest court of criminal jurisdiction

28:11

in Texas, issued an order

28:14

denying our motion for

28:16

authorization to file a successive

28:19

habeas corpus application. What

28:21

does that actually mean for Ivan? Well,

28:23

it's bad news. When I got

28:26

the word of the order, I'll tell you,

28:28

my heart sank. Because,

28:31

you know, that's really our best

28:33

chance of review. And I'll tell you, I really

28:36

thought

28:36

the court was going

28:38

to give us a hearing. But they

28:40

didn't. The convicting court,

28:43

the local court in Collin County,

28:46

has already scheduled

28:48

a new execution date for Ivan.

28:50

And can I ask when that is? It is scheduled

28:53

for February 28, 2024. And at this point

28:55

in the procedure, in a case like

28:57

this, when

29:01

you are literally, you know, running out of

29:03

options, running out of courts

29:05

to go to, it's just,

29:08

it's difficult. It's very hard.

29:11

So how is Ivan doing now, Gina,

29:13

knowing this?

29:14

He was devastated by the news. It

29:16

was just hope

29:19

crushing. It's just difficult

29:21

to even say where he is right now. Because

29:24

to have your hope dashed and know that

29:27

the chances of relief

29:29

are dwindling. And now, of course,

29:31

that we have another execution date.

29:34

You're counting down those days

29:36

to February 28. But

29:38

with no less habeas time.

29:51

But now, it's counting down

29:54

again. For him and many

29:56

others, there are so many twists and

29:58

turns on the route to the death.

29:59

and the families

30:02

of his victims continue to wait

30:04

for justice to be done. I

30:08

started out looking at a surreal hunt

30:10

for death row drugs.

30:13

But that snapshot was just

30:15

the beginning. Many of the stories

30:17

in this series show how the system

30:20

might be worn down.

30:22

But the cocks still turn

30:24

and the process grinds on. Death

30:27

Row isn't dead yet.

30:46

Killing Death Row is presented

30:48

by me, Livy Hayduck. It's

30:51

produced by Anna Meisel. The

30:54

sound design is by Richard Hannaford.

30:57

The production coordinator is Janet Staples.

31:00

The editor is Claire Fordham. It's

31:03

made in Salford and is a BBC

31:06

long-form

31:06

audio production from Radio 4.

31:13

Thanks for listening to Gangster Presents,

31:15

Killing Death Row. Gangster

31:17

Series 4 will be back very

31:20

soon. And it's an incredible story.

31:23

So if you haven't already, subscribe

31:25

to this podcast and you'll get the

31:27

new series as soon as it drops.

31:30

See you soon.