0:00

When you know that you are queer but

0:02

your favorite drink is beer that's gay-ish You

0:05

can bottom without stopping but you can't stop

0:07

going shopping that's gay-ish Oh,

0:09

gay-ish, you're probably gay-ish Life's

0:13

just too short for narrow

0:15

stereotypes, oh it's gay-ish We're

0:17

all so gay-ish, it's gay-ish

0:19

with Mike and Kyle Hello

0:21

everyone in the podcast universe, this is

0:24

gay-ish The podcast that peers through the

0:26

window in your hole Wait,

0:30

I have a window in my hole? Yeah and

0:33

I can see right into it Ooh, what

0:35

do you see? What's in there? Is this just

0:37

darkness? It's just

0:39

darkness and sadness I'm

0:43

Mike Johnson I'm Kyle Getz And we're here

0:45

to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality

0:47

and today it's not just about my hole

0:50

Well, it could be change of plans, this

0:53

episode is about Mike's hole Mike, how's your

0:55

hole? Great, it's fine

0:58

Okay, how's your hole? It's

1:00

wonderful Great, it's

1:02

chipper today It's full of wonder Full

1:06

of wonder No,

1:08

we would say we're talking about memoirs We're

1:10

going to talk about memoirs, which is a

1:12

French for Biography,

1:15

I think, I don't know, it's

1:17

French for something Oh, really? Oh, okay

1:21

But first feedback corrections

1:23

and 100 words This is a

1:25

little bit of all of those

1:27

at the same time At

1:30

a certain level of Patreon, if you send in 100 words, I will read them It's

1:34

also lovingly known as the Use Mike's Hole

1:37

benefit Go ahead and

1:39

send those in, everybody Even if you've done it before, I get to

1:42

decide if there's conflicts I don't

1:44

know Anyway, this

1:46

was from John Wong Here we

1:50

go, are you ready Kyle? I'm ready Hi

1:54

Mike and Kyle and Derek Just

1:56

Finished the Playboy episode and bonus video, and

1:58

thank you all. For bringing up the

2:01

Comstock Act. Or. Flight to next

2:03

you know on the bonus video plan,

2:05

be sliced. The morning after pill is

2:07

not an abortifacient. it's contraception as it's

2:10

meant to prevent fertilisation and does not

2:12

abort a fetus. However, it's absolutely true

2:14

that many Republicans, including openly to supreme

2:16

court justices in a recent case, want

2:19

to revive the com stock get to

2:21

go after the mailing of medication, abortion,

2:23

drugs like method priests down. While it's

2:25

unlikely the justices Alito and Thomas will

2:28

get their way and the miss oppressed

2:30

don't case, it is absolutely the case.

2:32

That right wing conservatives want to revive

2:34

it and use a potential next Republican

2:36

President to enforce the Comstock Act on

2:39

abortion. To. Ban medication, abortion, drugs

2:41

like with a priest stone and miss

2:43

a process all. As well

2:45

as possibly to ban the mailing a

2:47

medical tools that could be used for

2:49

an abortion. They of course could go

2:51

after contraception met methods like plant be

2:53

next after banning the mailing have any

2:55

abortion related materials. Regardless, thanks Mike for

2:57

bringing it up and it's absolutely important

2:59

to talk about and of course ties

3:01

into my stick about voting. While voting

3:03

doesn't solve everything, not voting or even

3:05

worse, voting for right wing A Holes

3:07

this year means a lot more freedoms

3:09

will be taken away. Please vote this

3:11

year in the primary and general election.

3:13

and also if people. Have legal

3:15

questions about abortion, pregnancy loss,

3:18

or other pregnancy related stuff.

3:20

They can go to www.reproach

3:22

Legal Help line.org. Thanks.

3:24

Again as always for the informative and entertaining

3:27

show. I know this is more than one

3:29

hundred words, but consider this my way of

3:31

using makes hold. This week Wiki emerged the

3:33

best. John Henson. Thanks. John

3:36

I. I'm I'm I'm

3:38

glad that you're getting the word

3:40

out about voting cause guess. We.

3:43

Should do that in up. Also about the

3:45

Playboy episode at this is not so much

3:47

a correction as an oversight. I later found

3:50

an article were apparently Hugh Hefner as an

3:52

ex wife after he died. felt after a

3:54

couple of years have gone by. it was

3:56

okay to come forward and say that she's

3:59

really sure that he was banging dunes that

4:01

he is the hell I that he is

4:03

to have dude come visit and would like

4:05

kick her out of the bedroom and they

4:08

would have sexy fun time without her and

4:10

she was mad about it. At

4:12

but. Let it slide into that. He was dead.

4:15

No way. Yeah that's exciting we we

4:17

are we how to discuss on their

4:19

weather like what he's his statement whether

4:22

meant that he was doing gay stuff

4:24

or not and. I. Guess he

4:26

was, which he didn't deny. Doing.

4:28

Sexy stuff with other dudes in the

4:31

room because of swinging but this was

4:33

like she's like nah dogs he was

4:35

being in those boys some s yeah

4:38

good for him. Okay. Now.

4:40

The News: Shut your mouth all

4:42

it's time for your air hose.

4:44

News. News News. Okay News: The

4:46

First: Are you ready? How? Yeah.

4:48

Many? Okay, great. we should talk

4:50

about the first. As sick as

4:52

I think, it's the most important,

4:54

the Biden administration has made changes.

4:56

now. it's a Title Nine that

4:58

protects Trans and Nine Barrett non

5:00

binary students bathroom and pronoun use

5:02

at school. So. Ah,

5:04

the Us Department of Education announce

5:06

a final rule under Title Nine

5:09

that protects people in public schools

5:11

from sex based discrimination and harassment.

5:13

I'm it. Is A It's

5:16

a big update right that add

5:18

this and this sort of gray

5:20

area for whether Title Nine applies

5:23

to trans folks or not and.

5:26

This. Makes it clear

5:29

that it absolutely does except when

5:31

it comes to sports which is

5:33

why agree that is that it

5:35

was chicken shit but the by

5:37

the administration was like yeah we

5:39

couldn't go after transports protection the

5:41

same and have a pass because

5:43

of the defect things asshole said

5:45

are in congress. I'm. But

5:49

us at these. These.

5:52

Rules at the very least mean

5:54

that all public schools k through

5:56

twelve and I Am and colleges

5:58

students pronouns and right to use

6:00

them stream of the gender with

6:02

which they identify is protected. and

6:04

I'm if. Schools. Don't

6:07

tell that line. They risk losing their federal

6:09

funding which is. A. Lot. Of

6:11

often I mean mostly awesome. Yeah, except

6:13

for the athletes part. Yep, which I

6:15

do think you know there is a

6:17

pragmatism that I think we have to

6:19

be mostly okay West right? Like if

6:21

it's if it's pass some protections we

6:23

shouldn't say we should have done. All

6:25

of them are none of I'm afraid.

6:27

Ah yes, if this is what get

6:29

past and this is what to get

6:32

past. Yeah, I guess so

6:34

this is like a metaphor for

6:36

of why we're voting for Joe

6:38

Biden re as it's because it's

6:40

the best we can do for.

6:42

Yep! Absolutely. He's.

6:45

What weakest since then month? Okay

6:47

news the second. I'm multi

6:50

Pancho Li who you might know

6:52

as tennis from Thirty Rock. A

6:56

has been on invited to

6:58

speak at a school district

7:00

in Cumberland Valley, Pennsylvania. At.

7:02

He was scheduled to speak next month

7:05

at Mountain View Middle School and Mechanicsburg

7:07

about his experiences with bullying and the

7:09

importance of empathy and inclusion Ah, but

7:11

the school board voted unanimously to cancel

7:14

the event citing concerns that his Lgbtq

7:16

plus advocacy would be to political for

7:18

a school setting. There. Was

7:20

a community backlash? ah about letting

7:23

a faggot talk to kids? I

7:25

guess I am. Yeah, there is

7:27

a petition that the communities putting

7:29

together to reinstate the event, but

7:31

the Cumberland Belly Board has been

7:34

saying at we don't Care and

7:36

now John Sediment apparently is involved

7:38

Somehow Sen. John Center met Sediments

7:40

at the Democrat known for wearing

7:42

hoodies to Congress as openly now

7:45

criticise the school district saying that

7:47

that at removing this imitation was

7:49

deeply wrong. And a detriment to students'

7:51

education and diversity and bullying. He's.

7:54

On threads, which I guess he's the

7:56

only one I. Expressing

7:58

his concern and. Them to

8:01

reconsider. Anyway, I.

8:03

Guess I really just put the sorry

8:05

in here because it's Cats from Thirty

8:07

Rock and I know you love the

8:10

show. Dance dass die tell us a

8:12

steadicam. Yeah, I saw this. It's really

8:14

frustrating. like just by virtue of who

8:16

we are, our identities are politicized like

8:19

we don't. We're controversial just by existing

8:21

is gay people and out and get

8:23

us cancelled. And. That's why

8:25

we have to be given that microphone

8:27

I think right like like this is

8:29

the problem with people and their kids

8:31

and their relationship to school districts. This

8:34

whole like parental choice fucking horse shit

8:36

that dick back up his ass off

8:38

like to talk about. Sometimes.

8:40

Your city as kidneys to be exposed to

8:42

shit that the like you're just. Going.

8:45

To like We're going to teach

8:47

your kid some shit because it's

8:49

real. Gay people exist or real.

8:51

You. Just like. It's not our jobs

8:53

you. Not tell your kids yet

8:55

because you're an asshole. Yeah, and I think

8:57

forcing issues sometimes necessary. And I'm trying to

9:00

think of an example where it might go

9:02

the other way. Like if they wanted to

9:04

start saying like we can't talk about. The.

9:07

Existence of Christians in schools. I

9:09

would be against that. also rightly

9:11

right. Christians exist or most

9:13

of them are dumb but like we can't

9:16

pretend they don't exist so that year of

9:18

stupid atheist kid doesn't have that. Experience.

9:21

That. Content either. Not just like

9:23

Skyn of yourself parents. Schools are supposed to

9:26

teach. What? Society needs taught.

9:28

not what you want. Your city kinda

9:30

not here. Brand. Scintillating.

9:34

Scintillating. Accounts

9:38

avid over delay, admire and mates

9:40

or my internet or good the

9:42

last of it. I'm. pretty

9:44

sure that i've talked about them before

9:46

if i haven't it's another group if

9:48

i have is the same group doing

9:51

shit again but there is a glut

9:53

of that there's a group of gave

9:55

furry hackers called ceased sex and they

9:58

have hacked and docs people people's

10:00

data from far right media outlet

10:02

Real America's Voice. Real

10:05

America's Voice, they just came up with

10:07

the first idea they had and went

10:09

with it. They should really think about

10:11

that name. It doesn't roll off the

10:13

tongue. Real America's Voice

10:16

or RAM. Nope, that's

10:18

not what that spells. RAV. Okay.

10:20

RAV. Anyway, businessman

10:23

Robert Sig owns the right-wing media

10:25

outlet and they regularly platform far

10:27

right commentators like Steve Bannon, Charlie

10:29

Kirk. They have pushed

10:31

conspiracy theories like COVID-19

10:33

misinformation, 2020 election

10:36

conspiracies, QAnon horseshit, of course,

10:38

obviously a bunch of transphobic

10:41

and anti-LGBT content. So

10:44

this group of gay furry

10:47

hackers targeted them and

10:50

then released the personal information of over 1200

10:53

app users, included

10:55

their full names, phone numbers, and email addresses.

10:58

I don't know how I feel about that. The

11:00

group also said that they quote went poof on

11:02

their files and wiped a

11:04

bunch of data from the apps API and

11:06

its cloud storage. They said, throughout our attacks

11:09

on transphobic entities, we have received concerns that

11:11

our attacks will use to label the LGBTQ

11:13

plus community as terrorists and criminals. The

11:16

thing is, these types of people will blame the

11:18

LGBTQ plus community regardless of what we do. They

11:20

will look for a reason to hate. They won't listen

11:22

to reason. They want to spread lies to shun people

11:25

different than them. And yeah, they

11:27

also made headlines in November 2023 when

11:29

they hacked into the biggest nuclear laboratory in the

11:31

United States and demanded that

11:34

its employees focus on research into

11:36

real-life cat girls. They

11:40

posted to about

11:43

the hack and in cat

11:45

language. What

11:48

is cat language? Well, they

11:50

boasted about the attack of I&L's data in

11:52

public posts that began meow, meow, meow. I

12:00

don't know, man. Like I think, I

12:02

don't know if I would advocate for

12:04

the methods that they're employing, but also

12:06

like they're definitely attacking the right people.

12:08

I, I don't know how to, I don't know how

12:10

to feel about it. Kyle. Yeah. The

12:12

hacktivist groups are a challenge because they're

12:14

not regulated by anyone. So they're just,

12:17

which is partially why they can do

12:19

what they do. And

12:21

it feels good when they're

12:23

hacking the people that are, that you're

12:26

against. So until

12:28

they go after someone you like,

12:30

then it's feels like

12:32

a good thing. But yeah, it's a

12:34

tricky, it's, it's

12:36

tricky to know how to feel about this

12:38

kind of activism. Yeah, absolutely.

12:42

And also I

12:44

feel like right wing

12:46

people are dumb dumbs and they're less

12:49

good at security. I

12:52

think they might be easier targets. Like

12:54

they're worse at the internet. That's totally

12:56

just my bias coming through. Yeah.

13:00

Yeah. Okay.

13:03

All right. That's it. That's

13:06

the news. That's the news. Speaking

13:09

of people that we would like

13:11

to talk to in cat language,

13:13

I want to thank the following

13:15

meow new Patreon members. Thank you

13:17

to Jerome

13:20

Guilema. Nailed it. Probably.

13:23

And Troy Jones. That one

13:25

I know I got. That was easy. Yep.

13:28

If you want bonus episodes a day

13:30

early, if you want to use my

13:32

coal, if you want

13:34

to support the show, go to

13:37

patreon.com/gayish podcast. Do it. Do it.

13:41

You wanna talk about memoirs? Yeah. Let's talk

13:43

about memoirs. All right. Well, we are

13:46

going to have with us a

13:48

known memoir writer named Stan Zimmerman.

14:00

Our our own treasure trail. We shaved it,

14:04

Just like Harrys blaze their own trail

14:06

because there were no other raises before

14:08

they existed. Ranking system Harrys our customers

14:11

get ripped off the question or products

14:13

for the saving industry decided to do

14:15

something better. I use Harrys and it

14:17

gives me smooth press looking face when

14:19

I see around my beard and I

14:21

really like their products. yeah I did

14:24

to the raises a really really good

14:26

but also I enjoyed that body was

14:28

Sonos are awesome. I use the fig

14:30

ah flavored. I'm pretty regularly little if

14:32

you want to get in. On the

14:35

action, don't settle for the status

14:37

quo. please your own trail with

14:39

Harrys. Get started with the thirteen

14:41

dollars set for just three dollars

14:44

that harrys.com flash Guess yeah of

14:46

five. played razor with awaited handle,

14:48

farming shapes, health and travel cover

14:50

for just three bucks. harrys.com/gaius that's

14:53

Harrys accomplice. Guess for a three

14:55

dollar trials? Yeah, get it. You

14:58

member what it was like when prep came

15:00

out I sure do. Yes it was a

15:02

big deal is everybody was like now we

15:04

don't have to worry about Hiv Aids anymore

15:06

which is pretty huge for the community will

15:08

matter not but for us to eyes. Imagine

15:10

a world where as the eyes are thing

15:12

of the past everyone's been talking about doxy

15:14

path and that's cause is ninety percent effective

15:16

at curbing as he has a chlamydia, gonorrhea

15:18

and syphilis you don't want any of those

15:20

can make them not happen to you. Ended

15:22

up from it's he was Care is one

15:24

of these even get a hold of it

15:27

A are a top telemedicine. Provider with

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board certified physicians across all fifty

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states with one miss in making

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15:37

medical questions on their hipper complaint

15:40

online platform in one of their

15:42

positions were prescribed accept you feel

15:44

like it's zip straight to your

15:46

door in discreet packaging. It.

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Is affordable? Just a hundred nine dollars

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a year and that covers your online

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evaluation, the medication, and the shipping. So

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ready to rewrite your story? Ready to

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rediscover the joy of carefree intimacy? The

16:00

same with care.com/gays and

16:02

take control of your

16:04

sexual health. That same

16:06

with care.com/gaius Your liberation

16:08

is leaving your liberation.

16:11

Movement. Season.

16:15

And I he's gonna wanna talk about

16:17

use his book the Girls from Golden

16:19

to Gilmore and that's his that's his

16:22

book. About while

16:24

it's a memoir, By. Tonight at

16:26

talks about him being a writer on

16:28

a bunch of really really awesome shows

16:30

that I that many of us know

16:32

and love and. I including

16:34

Golden Girls. Girls. Gilmore

16:36

Girls. he wrote on Roseanne. He wrote

16:38

one of the Brady Bunch movies so

16:40

he's written a lot of stuff that

16:43

you may know here. And oh he's

16:45

also gay. Projects such

16:47

as as rich as important as it

16:49

was an important to the so. Yeah

16:52

yeah. Is that? do

16:54

you have more to say? I'm. Or

16:57

memoirs gay. I hope he helpless figure

16:59

that out. Mean is I mean be

17:01

a writer? is kind of gay already

17:03

so. Writing about your

17:05

own life. Being gay I think. Gives

17:08

you content to write about it for your

17:10

memoir because you can write about like all

17:12

the shitty things people did you. because you

17:14

are guess. Which I

17:16

think is part of what was included

17:18

in in Stance Memoir. More!

17:20

Yep. Yep!

17:23

Yep, yep. well I'm like I was just

17:25

get to it than. Yes sir,

17:27

it. When. We're going take a break.

17:29

We get back. We're gonna have Stand Zimmerman with us

17:31

to talk about all things. Writing.

17:33

And memory. And and I said

17:35

yeah, listless, Take a break. With.

17:37

Cigarette. Break.

17:40

Thank. You for taking a break

17:42

and. The

17:51

remember what it was like when prep came out? I sure

17:53

do. Yes, it was a big deal because everybody was like

17:55

now we don't have to worry about Hiv Aids anymore which

17:57

is pretty huge for the community. Rent

18:00

the Eyes. Imagine a world where as

18:02

the eyes are thing of the past.

18:05

everyone's been talking about Doxie Path and

18:07

that's cause is ninety percent effective at

18:09

curbing as he has a chlamydia, gonorrhea

18:11

and syphilis you don't want any of

18:14

those that can make them not. Happened

18:16

in Duffy up from it's he was

18:18

Care is one of these. even get

18:20

a hold of it! A are a

18:23

top telemedicine provider with board certified physicians

18:25

across all fifty states with one mission

18:27

making Doxie Pub accessible and affordable. The

18:29

process. As hassle free answer some

18:31

medical questions on their hip a

18:33

complaint online platform in one of

18:35

their positions were prescribed accept you

18:38

feel less expensive straight to your

18:40

door in discreet packaging. It.

18:42

Is affordable. just a hundred

18:44

nine dollars a year and

18:46

that covers your online evaluation,

18:48

the medication, and the shipping.

18:50

So ready to rewrite your

18:52

story? Ready to rediscover the

18:54

joy of carefree intimacy? Visit

18:56

Seamless care.com/gays and take control

18:58

of your sexual health. That

19:01

Seamless care.com/guess your liberation is

19:03

leading liberation. Movement.

19:08

As episode of Sponsored by Better Health

19:10

makes yeah, sometimes it takes more energy

19:12

to do things like record an ad.

19:14

Boy, it sure does. He have to

19:16

think of a topic, You have to

19:18

think of something witty to say. It

19:20

can be kind of draining sometimes. Absolutely.

19:22

And I like being drained, but not

19:24

in this way. Like

19:28

can be draining with more social commitments.

19:31

After the winter, people expect that you're

19:33

going to hang out, spend more time

19:35

together and that can. Yeah, that can

19:37

be draining, especially. In Seattle and the

19:39

fun starts coming out next. When all

19:42

the people in the world come back,

19:44

ask for your time Ruff! I mean

19:46

better boundaries I think yes. So therapy

19:49

helps me process what my social life

19:51

should look like and how I deal

19:53

with my social battery, how I dust

19:55

mites room in my upper me to

19:58

and speed get those boundaries. Talking

20:00

about, please remember to try to

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20:32

Are we back? We're back where

20:34

fact is, It's

20:36

we're here. Withstand the room. And ah,

20:38

welcome to the show San Appreciate you

20:41

being here. Thank you for inviting me.

20:43

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah Okay let's just

20:45

jump right into it. You are based

20:47

in in Los Angeles. A You said

20:49

you're spitting. This is from Hollywood Right

20:51

now I'm in Hollywood get I would

20:53

ball. I also just started a timeshare

20:55

at a place in New York City.

20:57

So and ten my you I kept

20:59

the A like a New Yorker. People

21:01

think I'm a New Yorker. I

21:03

watched and more time back there, hopefully

21:05

getting more involved and theater and I

21:07

just when I land I feel like

21:10

I'm at home. What's Gay? or L

21:12

A or New York? Ah jeez, they're

21:14

very very very different. I mean you

21:16

see more gay I guess because you're

21:19

walking on the strain, your bumping into

21:21

people and and it's just very fashionable

21:23

and cool. But

21:25

he now then you'll you'll read a

21:27

license plate that cycle that could be

21:30

any gay or or or you see

21:32

our and comics are. You know

21:34

people just talk and the phone mother driving and

21:36

that's pretty gay. So I

21:38

had a little fourth of has

21:40

it's advantages as far as the

21:42

gay world in our it is

21:44

very. Often the open he now

21:47

as opposed to still when I go home.

21:49

I'm a member of the Midwest and blaze

21:51

grew up in the suburb of Detroit. Ten.

21:54

Mile if you're thinking Eminem in

21:56

that area. It's

21:58

just those references. You

22:00

know, there was always, you know, you

22:02

live in your house, you shut the door, what

22:04

happens behind your door, that's your business. Where

22:07

I feel like in New York, LA, probably

22:09

even in Miami or in bigger

22:11

cities, it's just much more, you know,

22:14

out in the open and kind

22:16

of okay. But in any

22:18

city, you still have to be careful, unfortunately,

22:21

still, where you walk, what you do. Mm

22:24

hmm. Mm hmm. So growing

22:26

up, growing up in Detroit, what's that like?

22:29

Um, you

22:31

know, in going back

22:33

and writing this book, I had to go

22:35

back into my childhood. And you

22:39

know, people find it so

22:41

hard to believe back then how closeted we

22:43

all had to live. And

22:45

that, you know, people are so shocked when

22:48

they find out that writing on Golden Girls,

22:50

even though it was season one, we were

22:52

told to stay in the closet, and

22:55

not say you were gay on such a

22:57

progressive show. But it was just a different

22:59

time then. And people have asked, how could

23:01

you be so creative?

23:04

And you know, in creativity and artistry, you have

23:06

to open yourself up and be

23:08

an open vessel in a way. And yet

23:10

we so much of our lives were shut

23:12

down. So it got

23:14

me thinking, as I'm doing this

23:17

little book tour, realizing

23:19

I have so many years

23:21

to perfect that hiding and

23:23

deflecting and being, you know,

23:27

gay with my friends and most of my

23:29

family, but in the world, it was still

23:31

that was just not talked about.

23:34

And how do you survive and be creative and successful

23:36

and all of that. And it

23:38

was so nice to finally start breaking

23:41

down those barriers back then, against all

23:44

odds appearing in a

23:46

local independent newspaper in LA with

23:48

our picture on the backlot.

23:50

Like Warner Brothers and gay

23:52

writing duo, like in comedy that

23:54

just wasn't heard of. I don't

23:56

even know if there were any

23:59

before us. I when I want

24:01

to ask who is it it's telling you

24:03

you need to stay in the closet Like

24:05

are there other people who are explicitly like

24:08

saying with their words you need to stay

24:10

in the closet or is it more and

24:12

in applications and agent a representative. So you

24:14

figure it, they know they have the key

24:17

to your next job. Also a lot of

24:19

these people were gay themselves. Or

24:22

their word development executives. We had a

24:24

mentor who is gay gary keeper. And

24:26

it it was as com analysis which you

24:28

did but states would say all well you have

24:30

a big party for one of your first

24:32

shows. A premiere party. You need to bring

24:34

a woman. In

24:37

Up and Tell. On

24:39

Roseanne we got nominated for Writers Guild

24:41

Award for the don't ask, don't Tell

24:43

episode which is also known as Lesbian

24:45

Kiss episodes. I brought Margaret Cho with

24:48

me who in a friend at the

24:50

time and and didn't have a boyfriend.

24:52

I will give you that and I

24:54

really does love hanging out with her

24:56

but it still makes you think like

24:58

he. There were still little residue of

25:01

that. If you are going to something

25:03

so public it probably be better. If

25:05

you are with a woman. You've

25:07

mentioned that there is where least

25:09

one golden girl that figured out

25:12

the you were day early on

25:14

yes And of course our Dsl

25:16

getty they were ally of all

25:18

allies. Ah and see, nose. And.

25:20

When little teeny off broadway plays and

25:23

then she happened to lock into being

25:25

Harvard fire stance mom and for sunk

25:27

trilogy off Broadway. And then that exploded

25:29

on Broadway which I thought I had

25:32

moved to L A. but I'd come

25:34

back. To. New York or my writing

25:36

partner was still living and he said I

25:39

got a ticket to as also that exploded

25:41

on Broadway. I knew nothing about it and

25:43

of the Sun I see the Total Woman

25:45

come on stage and Harvey's interviewed and putting

25:48

them as mother and son. Them they were

25:50

just hysterical together. I had no idea that

25:52

a year and a half later I would

25:54

be writing for her but one of the

25:57

first days on said see. Came

26:00

up to I think she teeny tiny,

26:02

so clear and she started like walking

26:04

away. Him and Gemini are looking for

26:06

the worse. You going to follow me

26:09

and with followed her around the Sat

26:11

and she's like come here they come

26:13

down to her heights which is lived

26:15

for something. As you said your secret

26:17

save with me. And

26:19

gemini to l looked at each other more like. That.

26:22

Were Jewish as. Fast

26:25

as I feared. J Yeah now and like

26:27

I know I know I'd are. My friends

26:29

are gay and like guy I got you

26:31

now I got your back. And.

26:34

So there were still the idea of

26:36

the to keep the secret but it

26:38

was so great that she was like

26:40

in a always the winking at us

26:42

and so that we instantly became fast

26:44

friends and. Our friendship grew

26:47

even after we were not on the

26:49

show and further seasons and stayed in

26:51

touch with her room. And me,

26:53

I gutter. To. Two different

26:55

events with her and I just adore

26:58

her and I really respect that. At

27:01

night after rehearsal the golden girls who

27:03

would go and do a benefits and

27:05

there were so few stars of note

27:08

that would put their face or names

27:10

to and aids benefit and he was

27:12

stopped wanting to do everything she could

27:15

do. To. Save can only imagine

27:17

how like comforting that must have been

27:19

to have to have that little secret

27:21

moment of trust by. But the.

27:23

In in this environment the you're describing of be

27:26

sure to see in the closet with to have

27:28

to have that sort of confidence. It. Must

27:30

must have been a relief. He.

27:32

Was a relief. but then we'd go into

27:34

the writers' room and at the time Gemini

27:37

were sharing. The bottom.

27:39

Half of a house in Silverlake.

27:41

And sober like with time known as a gay

27:44

area and one day we came men. And

27:46

on Monday people said why did you do

27:48

and we said we went to this garage

27:50

sale as I bought all I got all

27:52

these didn't it's sweaters. As all

27:54

the writers like their eyes bug. Doubt

27:57

my said. But. It

27:59

was it a yard. They are a garage

28:01

sale because the guy died of Aids. You.

28:03

Have gone or in those letters

28:05

oh my God And Be. And.

28:07

Back then again you didn't know that much

28:09

about him or like oh my God was

28:12

either. I didn't burn them but I remember

28:14

putting them in a garbage bag and tying

28:16

it, titan throwing them out. I'd never wore

28:18

them, you know? So again it was that

28:20

fear and think about like the early days

28:22

of covertly just didn't know or in a

28:24

were watching down are all the stuff. Grocery

28:28

bags and things. So

28:30

I think it is important to talk about that

28:33

and that's why I did included the my book

28:35

so that younger people. Know. The

28:37

history of. Where.

28:39

We came from where we are

28:41

many places were still the same.

28:43

The fact that we're you know,

28:45

citing you know for trans rights

28:47

and drag queens to read books

28:50

in schools. I mean that they're

28:52

still this notion and that has

28:54

that same that if you talk

28:56

about being gay. oh my god,

28:58

it's so exciting you're going out

29:00

this suddenly. Kids are going to

29:02

become gay That a citizen of

29:04

odd. Philosophy.

29:07

To think. Ah, or when

29:09

actually talking about are seeing drag

29:11

queens. Maybe these kids will actually

29:14

learn about. Tolerance. And acceptance

29:16

and that there are many kinds of

29:18

people. In visibility and

29:20

that's why I think you dealt with

29:22

this earlier in your program. But my

29:24

friend Molly, Pencil Lakes and I've been

29:26

cancelled to speak at a middle school.

29:29

And. I did all of them. Instagram

29:31

thing. no visibility save lives and

29:34

I think that's what he's been

29:36

fighting for. As. Am

29:38

I with my suicide awareness player?

29:40

I preferred go with small leak

29:42

accident and term in New York

29:44

a Town Hall. Two years ago

29:47

the I'm The To school board

29:49

in Pennsylvania that that the voted

29:51

to exclude him from. Speaking of

29:53

the middle school I'm V kept

29:55

using the word lifestyle over and

29:57

over again about that beings it's

29:59

his. Lifestyle that were worried about being

30:01

promoted and I thought we gave up

30:04

on the fucking word lifestyle in the

30:06

night out, about your super old school.

30:08

I then it wasn't. There is still

30:10

this olds and a race and that

30:12

still looks at it as a lifestyle.

30:15

I don't care if you're born with

30:17

it, if you chose it, who the

30:19

fuck cares? If you wanna say I'm

30:21

gay, identify gay, or you wanna like,

30:23

you know, I can just i

30:26

get sick of they'd on here like

30:28

suck cocks Zola a dull and you

30:30

know many people including some you know

30:32

senators and Congressmen that would mind meeting

30:34

you and some bathroom at Dulles airport

30:36

which with the. No

30:40

names. Like

30:42

that people just live. Why heavenly

30:45

gotten to that place yet? I

30:47

just you know. but. The.

30:49

Site cause I'm It does go on and

30:51

each time we think. It's. Gonna

30:53

like are over there Oh now here

30:55

we go again and them It has

30:58

felt very two steps forward one step

31:00

back with you know throughout throughout history

31:02

and it it does feel like we're

31:04

any taking a step back moment. right?

31:06

Now and ipad it's hard to hang

31:09

on to that but hope to this

31:11

is an oscillation but like if it

31:13

if it will get better. The long

31:15

arc of history has been in a

31:17

good direction but man things are rough

31:19

right now. Yeah. I didn't

31:21

understand if that's how like with Bill

31:24

Clinton were Calico case and does not

31:26

to name drop again by. I happened

31:28

to be going to dinner with the

31:31

Lily Tomlin and our partners and Wacker.

31:34

Like I think we suck when the

31:36

first bush came back and I'm going

31:38

to explain that like the greatest minds

31:41

of my lifetime. like just a help

31:43

me I don't get it And they

31:45

said you have using a politics like

31:47

a pendulum. And

31:50

like when I think of that I'm like

31:52

I could relax a little bit. So like

31:54

you know as Obama was in of. With.

31:57

Pushed him and went that way of and of a

31:59

sudden we and. The to the orange one and

32:01

then life like back and people keep pushing

32:03

it this way we we've just got to

32:05

be like no. We're. Not going

32:07

back to that and it means

32:10

you know, everybody getting out and

32:12

voting. You. Know I'm

32:14

what was it like for you Growing

32:17

up I go into schools are being

32:19

put the he's ah how was growing

32:21

up gay for you. Again

32:23

it was hard and mile little

32:26

complicated head with believe that a

32:28

Jew Frau. I. Did have like. Of

32:31

the cutest bluff man I don't

32:33

now just got tired and sick

32:35

doing whatever I can licenses and

32:37

have a fact and ah it

32:39

was very hard and my little

32:41

mine too. Wanting.

32:44

To figure out why when I went to

32:46

school I would be bullied out be spread

32:48

on and then I went to the summer

32:50

theater camp. And. I was the most

32:52

loved person there. And so

32:54

by and the same person lie

32:57

in one environment. Do.

32:59

They not respect me or see me and

33:01

then the other. I'm finding

33:03

my tribe and I did through

33:05

theater and doing plays. And

33:08

that was my saving grace. I

33:10

don't think I would be alive

33:12

today if I didn't have theater

33:14

and everything that that brought me

33:17

friends, laughter, joy preseason my creativity.

33:19

Be a kids are really cruel

33:21

and I'll have you go home.

33:24

And I never told my mother that I was spit

33:26

on and school I'd it wasn't till later it ears

33:28

and she was a why didn't you tell me I'm

33:30

like. What? Could I

33:32

have even sad fact that I was too afraid

33:35

even say I think I'm gay or I'm gay

33:37

or why they are calling me that. So

33:40

I would to go up into my bedroom.

33:43

Shut. the door and use my imagination

33:45

where i created my own tv

33:47

network which i'm sure most kids

33:49

do and haven't faced with a

33:51

programming and of course i gave

33:53

lily tomlin her own one hour

33:55

variety show because great sentiments school

33:57

and i felt i needed to

34:00

The world needed to see her genius

34:02

once a week and I got to tell

34:05

her that which was really cool. Lots

34:09

of different shows that I created or if there was

34:11

a show that got cancelled that I really liked, I

34:13

would put it on my own network. Working

34:17

in television just felt like something, of course

34:20

that's going to happen one day and I

34:22

was lucky that it did. So

34:24

it sounds like this was always your path or always what

34:26

you thought you'd be doing? Well

34:29

I wish I was tall and could be a fashion model

34:31

but that was not to be. It

34:33

would be 5A and a half so

34:36

that was not. Then I

34:38

thought I'd be like a background dancer on

34:40

a TV variety show but I

34:43

didn't start taking dance class actually until

34:46

NYU times and I got to study

34:48

with Joffrey Ballet and then with

34:50

them I got to kind of dance in

34:52

the background or move with

34:55

Rudolph and Ray out front so

34:57

that was very exciting to have

34:59

that tiny, tiny experience.

35:03

What was your break? When did you get your break? How

35:06

did it happen? The first break was getting our first

35:08

TV show so I moved out to

35:10

LA and in less than a year we

35:12

got offered two TV series. One, probably

35:15

one of the little regrets that

35:17

I had, it starred Madeline Kahn. It

35:19

was an ABC TV show and she

35:22

was just a friggin genius and I

35:24

kind of wish we had done that

35:26

show but we went where our mentor

35:28

was producing a show and we took

35:30

that job at ABC. The

35:33

show got, we filmed 13

35:35

episodes but it I think only aired seven or

35:37

eight but from that we got

35:39

a pilot at CBS, started doing,

35:42

that was a big break

35:44

and that was like the job when I was working

35:46

at the Vista movie theater. We

35:49

got the job on a Thursday I think and

35:52

I went to the job, handed in the

35:54

keys And they said, you know,

35:56

we know Hollywood, why don't you keep the keys, you'll

35:59

probably be coming back. Your to work

36:01

for a couple months. I was determined

36:03

there were no fucking way I was

36:05

kind of impact their names. it's like

36:07

I'm done. I'm out and I gave

36:09

him the keys. Flew to New York

36:11

for the weekend, came back and never

36:13

looked back. Really. Best:

36:17

The Golden Girls Wyatt Where you were gay

36:19

So obsessed with Golden Girls. Will.

36:21

You tell me, why are you obsessed

36:23

with that? Are you such as well?

36:25

For me, I grew. I was a

36:27

kid in the eighties and I loved

36:30

it because my my grandmother, my very

36:32

conservative Catholic grandmother fucking loved that show.

36:34

So we were just snuggle up on

36:36

the couch and watch this show. And

36:38

so I've got a lake? Is that?

36:40

That's not even part of the queer

36:42

experience? That's just. Bonding with

36:44

my grandmother. And

36:46

I I mean I I I I

36:48

do think the game in our that

36:50

sort of enamored by powerful women that

36:52

seems to be a theme. Are

36:55

lots of stories about Lgbtq

36:58

youth been with their conservative

37:00

graham mother's mostly and I

37:03

really think. You. Know

37:05

there was a moment. Well, obviously the show

37:07

had a clear sensibility. Even though Gemini were

37:09

the only queer writers, On. It

37:11

or the first season there wasn't till Mcsherry

37:13

came on. years later. But.

37:16

That you could sit there and he. He. Could

37:18

laugh together and then it wasn't like

37:21

he when they felt differences in a

37:23

politically like certain there was a common

37:25

ground. I think it gave us hope

37:27

and then also I think back then

37:29

while for people that lived and then

37:32

that time there was we were losing

37:34

a lot of people and aids and

37:36

and worry about would we even lived

37:38

to be that old and then they

37:40

would take care of us would we

37:42

live with so that. For.

37:45

People came together. To.

37:48

Form like a their own family with

37:50

com a new concept and I think

37:52

it gave a lot of us and

37:54

still does have that in the end

37:56

We don't wanna be alone that we

37:58

will find you know. You

38:00

know, Grandmother. In

38:02

family you know and may be

38:04

crazy mother and you know and

38:06

lots of sex coming in. That

38:08

Doria is so weird to meet

38:11

the I'm I'm I'm forty five

38:13

ends. I'm rapidly approaching the Aids

38:15

that they were supposed to be

38:17

fixed at at are or it

38:19

like what constitutes golden I think

38:21

has shifted in the last more

38:23

years or whatever hall I've seen

38:25

a lot of names were the

38:28

had pictures of say allow like

38:30

a stripper pole and. Saying he

38:32

was the same age as room Atlanta,

38:34

Allen says artists and is like. How

38:37

could that be? And they say

38:39

that? like your hairstyles really? He.

38:42

Now can make you look older and

38:44

those hairstyles was so old looking at

38:46

lunch of the never made a damn

38:48

it's a really push for was a

38:50

Betty White's have looked like George Washington.

38:55

Know like helping Betty would like

38:57

at i'm going All but it's

38:59

okay to you make fun of

39:01

Be Arthur but that don't make

39:03

fun of Betty White about it.

39:05

Did didn't move, it never move.

39:08

It was just like In Out.

39:10

It was very very strange. Safe

39:12

and out. There are many pictures.

39:14

If you'd taken those ladies faces

39:16

and had contemporary hairdos they would

39:18

love. Probably twenty years younger than

39:20

her girlfriend. And you do? You

39:22

do see. Like. When their own made

39:24

up for the Emmys or whatever that

39:27

big beard the the clearly not the

39:29

characters that they were made up to

39:31

be. i'm Amanda because that does Dell

39:33

I think was a year younger than

39:35

be Arthur. And

39:38

then between season london to i guess you

39:40

got a facelift. That she didn't

39:42

tell anybody and she comes to work in. there are

39:44

like. Or. There's another our make up

39:46

organ half day before together look like that.

39:49

I'm. ah now

39:51

you the now that on however

39:54

no matter no up or any

39:56

of them did after they look

39:58

fantastic and and gotta

40:01

love them because unlike any other show I've

40:03

ever been involved with, almost

40:05

every interview you see with them,

40:07

they compliment the writer

40:10

first and they give us the credit. It

40:12

isn't about them, it's about we

40:14

had these great words to say and

40:17

that's such a cool thing, you know,

40:19

maybe it's because they were older actors and

40:21

they really did appreciate good writing and it

40:24

was consistently really top-notch

40:27

writing. We knew we couldn't go home, it had to

40:30

be the best of the best jokes because

40:32

we had the best of the best actors. Yeah.

40:34

Well and there's there's such

40:36

a dearth of roles for women of a

40:39

certain age, much less good roles and good

40:42

roles in a group like that. It's

40:45

a magical combo. It was.

40:47

I guess originally they never thought Bea Arthur

40:50

would do a show because after Maude she's

40:52

like I'm done, I don't want to do

40:54

another long long running show and

40:56

then the script that Susan Harris so

40:58

beautifully did in the pilot, she

41:01

wrote Dorothy as a Bea Arthur type.

41:03

I guess from McClanahan, her friend from Maude,

41:06

read the show and she called her up and said, Bea, I

41:09

don't care if you have to read this script,

41:11

like this is really good and that's

41:14

how we got Bea Arthur in the show.

41:18

So did you have anything to do with writing

41:20

for Coco, the character Coco? No,

41:23

we did not come on the

41:25

show until, well

41:28

that was in the pilot Coco and then

41:30

they realized that they didn't need another character

41:33

because Estelle Getty's character was so funny and

41:35

she was supposed to be just like a

41:37

guest star and they're like no that's the

41:39

winning combination. So they did eliminate

41:41

Coco by the time we went in and

41:44

pitched. So the show got picked up and

41:46

then they have writers come in and pitch

41:48

different stories and we luckily sold

41:51

one and wrote a freelance script and they

41:53

liked the first rough draft of it so much

41:55

that they brought us on staff right away. But

41:58

we started going to all the taping. before it

42:01

started airing in September. So

42:03

we kind of saw where the show was going. I

42:05

often brought up like, let's explain the

42:07

disappearance of Coco. And they

42:09

didn't want to have anything to do with it. They were

42:11

like, he's done, he's gone, boom.

42:14

You know, and it was a different time then because

42:16

you only saw the shows

42:19

in reruns. It wasn't like you could

42:21

watch it, you know, in Hulu every night. So

42:24

I thought it'd been fun to have

42:26

them back and do a fun episode, but they

42:28

just, they never bought those pitches. Yeah.

42:31

I sort of wonder like an openly

42:33

gay character at that moment in

42:36

time seems so implausible

42:39

at that would ever make it to air. And then

42:41

it did in the pilot, but then I wonder who

42:43

writes that character? Cause like to your point of agents

42:45

saying you have to stay in the closet, who

42:48

writes gay characters in the

42:51

eighties? Well, we would,

42:53

yeah. They wouldn't

42:55

even probably think of that. I mean, they would probably

42:57

just think, well, Susan Harris wrote

43:00

the Billy Crystal character and soap

43:02

was one of the first gay characters on a

43:04

TV show. I

43:06

assume if they had kept Coco, they probably would

43:09

have looked for some gay writers. And

43:11

there was one or two where there'd be like half a

43:13

writing team that was gay. A

43:15

couple, you know, men that wrote on their own.

43:17

I'm sure there must've been some lesbians that were

43:20

writers, but

43:22

not many. It just wasn't, it

43:24

was thought of as like an old boys network.

43:27

You know, I'd even read somewhere

43:29

that on all of Gary Marshall

43:31

shows that the writing staff

43:34

in between writing scenes would go play

43:36

basketball outside. And so I

43:38

was like, well, I can't play basketball so I can't be

43:41

a writer. I mean, it was that, oh,

43:43

that jock thing again. Oh, then they're gonna play dodge

43:46

ball and I'm gonna be hitting the head and

43:49

looking those memories all over again. Although I

43:51

learned to catch the ball in dodge ball.

43:53

Like I used my tiny little body, like,

43:56

and I was read there for like a

43:58

month. Caught it

44:00

and you know that fucking asshole that threw it

44:02

at me that thought he was gonna like, you

44:04

know knock me to the floor he

44:07

was happy about that but with

44:10

survival My boyfriend

44:12

plays gay dodgeball and there's a lot of like

44:15

aggression that I

44:19

mean how many nightmares have you had about still

44:21

about that game That and

44:23

then the skins and shirts thing that

44:25

I could like I picked take my shirt off. Are

44:27

you kidding me? Yeah, that was

44:29

only when I get highs and have to go

44:31

to the school nurse or something or I sudden

44:33

like coughing fit I mean, I mean

44:36

this in the nicest way possible. I don't know a lot of

44:38

writers that I want to see shirtless, you know Guild

44:44

calendar Like

44:48

January maybe around Thanksgiving or no,

44:50

it's like eating back then Yeah,

44:53

I'll be I'll get on that right away.

44:55

Yeah same with podcasters Okay

45:01

I definitely want to make sure that we get a chance to

45:03

talk about Roseanne. You also wrote for Roseanne But

45:07

there's no overlap there right or was there like

45:09

were you writing for both shows at the same

45:11

time? I'm trying to remember were they ever did

45:13

they ever air at the same time? No,

45:16

that was many many many many years apart. I

45:18

think yeah. Okay. Okay. One was 80s one was

45:20

90s. Okay Yeah

45:25

Yeah, no Roseanne we

45:28

got offered the pilot of Roseanne before

45:30

Laurie and John Goodman Lord

45:32

Matt Kef and John Goodman were attached and

45:34

they wanted this crazy deal with like seven-year

45:36

commitment And we just were very excited to

45:38

be creating her own material in so we

45:40

said no Love

45:43

the show loved her always thought she'd be

45:46

from the minute. I saw her stand up I

45:48

knew she would could be a TV star even

45:50

though Everybody around us said

45:53

nobody wants to watch someone that looks like

45:55

that on TV They

45:58

were wrong and And

46:01

then it came back to us in season five

46:03

and we went our agents went

46:05

hard in to get us that job It's just like

46:07

this is the kind of show we liked it was

46:09

in the vein of like a Norman Lear show Which

46:12

I grew up on and loved it was dealing

46:14

with real people and middle-class Midwest

46:17

where I came from and

46:21

he fought hard and got us a gig and we got

46:24

on there and They're pretty

46:26

miserable on the show It was

46:28

21 writers Most

46:31

of them were stand-up comedy friends

46:33

of Tom Arnold and Roseanne So

46:36

they weren't really experienced writers at the

46:38

time, but they were brilliantly funny like

46:40

a Norm McDonald and Laura

46:43

Keitlinger and Peppler So

46:46

we kind of had to teach them about writing. I

46:49

love the show, but there was just

46:51

no respect No acknowledgement of your hard

46:53

work She was

46:56

always mistrusting of writers

47:00

We got friendly with Tom Arnold and he

47:02

was really cool and he did keep that

47:04

engine going That's a lot of work to

47:06

keep a show going and to do you

47:09

know now some shows are like 10 episodes

47:11

a season And no, they're so tired. You know, we would

47:13

do like 22 to 26 episodes. That's not a lot I

47:18

mean, you know by the time you

47:20

you started in July You

47:23

get to March April and you're just dizzy

47:25

and you know, you have no life and

47:27

it's exciting But

47:29

it is a it's a trade-off And

47:33

then you're kind of done my writing partner was

47:35

so done with all of that But

47:38

luckily we did meet Amy Sherman paladino

47:40

on that show which did lead eventually

47:42

to Gilmore Girls So

47:46

I think Roseanne Roseanne Arnold Roseanne

47:48

bar as being Really

47:50

progressive in the 90s and then she's

47:53

landed where she's landed now, which is

47:55

decidedly in the other direction Yeah

47:58

medical mental health reason Around

48:00

that I mean you can't watch. For.

48:02

Podcast or some those crazy video such

48:05

as making and who is very open

48:07

about her mental health issues. The mean

48:09

back in the days was reading books

48:12

but multiple personalities and you know the

48:14

guess is she has on her shows

48:16

like Carry Like Him I mean just.

48:20

Been. A really some cuckoo people.

48:24

But she's like emblematic of things

48:26

that I've seen with like my

48:28

family or or like a vacuum

48:30

and on conspiracy folk through the

48:32

whole Reddit about like I lost

48:34

my dad to this this craziness.

48:36

Like she's not the only one

48:38

that puts what's going on the

48:40

beginning. If we

48:42

can't have half the country with mental health

48:44

problems for me to we can. I don't

48:47

know. Ah yes, she blamed on ambien. That

48:50

first tirades other got her fired.

48:52

ah. Ha. I mean,

48:54

that's a big question, you know? Have

48:57

the lab discussions with and and variant

48:59

much into politics. and they have Msnbc

49:01

and. Like. Pretty much all

49:03

day long. I. Do. You

49:05

want to figure way to read

49:07

Some people are those people just.

49:10

You. Know clueless and you seen

49:12

so many videos the least I

49:15

have to someone yesterday where are

49:17

they showed a clip they faked

49:19

trump? Saying. That most

49:21

horrible things. And in this

49:24

group both. Be. Like

49:26

a research group they all have excuses

49:28

for it seems like still. I mean

49:30

he was sent off of things but

49:32

windy sleep with his daughter and they're

49:34

like well he's a red blooded man.

49:36

I like it his daughter see I

49:38

can we don't matter of they had

49:40

just like I just feel like. Some.

49:44

Other people's as got into their

49:46

really strong camps and I know

49:48

there's an intersection of like good

49:50

in there. So. where do

49:52

we find that intersection let's start

49:55

from that but when you see

49:57

so many people like with roseanne

49:59

thou and that you know, like

50:01

Marjorie Taylor Greene, they're not talking

50:03

about solutions. They're just screaming and

50:07

being loud and the louder they are, the

50:09

more they get covered in media and the

50:11

more money they get in. So it's not

50:13

about solving problems. Politicians should be there to

50:15

solve problems. She

50:17

used to be about entertaining and enlightening people

50:20

and getting people to think. And

50:22

now she's just about screaming her

50:25

point of view up there. How is that

50:27

helpful? I don't know. It's

50:29

one thing to have a different opinion of

50:32

how we all reach happiness,

50:35

but it's another to create

50:39

people that are othered and put

50:41

down other people and not

50:44

respect any, you know, all people

50:46

no matter what, back to

50:48

your lifestyle or whatever,

50:51

however you choose to live your life. Let's put

50:53

it that way. There's the whole thing about

50:55

like when you're writing jokes, are you punching

50:57

up or are you punching down? And, you

51:01

know, having respect for making

51:03

sure that you're not picking on

51:05

people lower on the ladder

51:07

in order to get your point across

51:09

or make points. Yes, I

51:11

didn't always see that. I thought you had

51:13

to be like mean and bitter and sarcastic.

51:16

And really, when I moved to LA, I just

51:18

thought I'll move to LA. What if I lose

51:20

my bite, my New York bite? And

51:23

I just started reading a lot of

51:25

books like Louise Hay

51:27

and even Shirley MacLaine and, you know,

51:29

and Shelby's like past lives. And it

51:33

just opened my mind to so many people

51:36

can believe different things. If it works for them,

51:40

God love them. You don't have to put them down for it. It's

51:42

working for them and not hurting you. And that

51:45

was just a new way of thinking.

51:48

And you can still be very dry

51:50

and sarcastic without it being mean to

51:52

people. And that kind

51:54

of humor I Just don't like, you know,

51:56

who is that guy that did both the

51:58

Golden Globes this year? And

52:00

the that? a house? Then he just came

52:02

out sort of making fun of everybody electrically.

52:05

surveys. Now with somebody

52:07

else. Oh. I forgot his name.

52:09

Anyway, and then he blamed the writers.

52:12

And. Like on a bloated with Sigma

52:14

practices. And then he said all,

52:16

Isis got the job Like you

52:19

know month ago. The.

52:21

Don't take the job. I mean I weep from

52:23

Scrubs Out In the Night and had to rewrite

52:25

a whole script and the day. So

52:28

you heard the jokes. You go. Now

52:31

you know the audience you're going in

52:33

front of. A big

52:35

you can poke fun without being mean and

52:37

there's some people those as a mean. This

52:39

said, I don't really need to be around

52:41

or here. Now. You're.

52:44

So. Tell us about writing for Gilmore

52:46

Girls. How's that different than the other kind of

52:48

jobs you've had? or what was it like? rating

52:50

for the for them. Ah,

52:52

Again, on that show was going into season

52:54

five so there were four seasons and they

52:56

were our show that I've only watched the

52:59

pilot so I had a. In

53:01

a weekend, Watts bins all those shows

53:03

and I did some love with that.

53:05

I just love the riding. I love

53:08

the speed of the talking. The actors

53:10

are amazing. Amy Sherman Palladino writing is

53:12

extraordinary. She created just as magical world

53:14

that I wanted to be a part

53:17

of and I was really difficult to

53:19

that. It is a lot of words.

53:23

And it was her vision which is so

53:25

specific. And. So I think that's

53:27

why she asked means him to come on

53:29

staff because you'd burn through lot of writers.

53:31

They weren't quite getting what she wanted. And.

53:34

Really hard for writers to get your

53:36

vision and to write a good first

53:38

draft and does so we were honor

53:40

that she asked us and we took

53:42

a year out of our development. Like

53:44

to go on that. I'm so glad

53:46

I did. An upgrade people! I learned

53:48

a lot about writing, planting stories and

53:50

sing the seeds come up later and

53:52

have to spend a lot of great

53:54

friends that I've been putting in my

53:56

plays and. Have

53:58

become like family to me? really? And

54:01

where along the way did you come

54:03

out with a weekend a skipped over

54:05

you're coming out story or have we

54:07

as a sellout? Importance and. Where

54:10

that came out well between Golden

54:12

Girls and Roseanne Really in our

54:15

friends knew then family that was

54:17

color below tough. Just

54:20

because you know you want their acceptance and

54:22

their love. My father's

54:24

rip. My parents are divorced by that

54:26

point. My father's reaction was I so

54:28

I just want my son back. When.

54:31

Murray club tears and then because

54:33

I was of the holding back

54:35

why was he did they were

54:37

with at fanboy. Ah

54:40

and my mom's was very like I

54:42

didn't have the weren't enough to warrant

54:44

like okay well I am. I

54:47

always felt that she loved having like

54:49

for gay son I think. See.

54:51

You know we just had this

54:54

amazing relationship and them. I

54:57

was always there for her and. Ah,

54:59

You know, I. Think in a way

55:01

to kind of like that. I was a perpetually

55:04

single. So that

55:06

it would just always be able to hang out

55:08

in that you know. She ended up moving to

55:10

Santa Barbara so I could see or lodge could

55:12

come down to all the tapings and eventually come

55:15

down to all my plays and. So.

55:17

I've felt so lucky that I had. That

55:21

person in my life for so long and

55:23

cana really made me who I am today.

55:26

I. Your Mom which which golden girl

55:29

was she most like That's a

55:31

fun party began. Not

55:34

blab set for sure. Ah, She.

55:37

Wasn't thing. isn't that road I guess

55:39

A Dorothy Earth of I guess I'm

55:41

Dorothy and turning into Sophia. Others

55:44

sometimes like when she would go out you

55:47

can turn into rose and chooses talk to

55:49

anybody and to like okay mom like we

55:51

can sit down a lot to become best

55:53

friends with. you know people of that bath

55:56

and beyond or that a wonderful people there

55:58

but. She. was always fun To

56:00

like fear in public. I think also because

56:02

she is a little bit alone like myself

56:04

and always lived alone That when

56:07

she went out, she was just like chatty chatty In

56:12

which golden girl are you I'm

56:18

not getting I'm not getting blanche energy either Maybe

56:24

in a couple hours and a martini then Yes,

56:26

yes, but that's true for everybody

56:28

maybe Yeah,

56:32

probably Dorothy. I mean, I'm just

56:34

very to the point and

56:36

and no bullshit and I don't like wasting

56:38

my time Yeah, but there definitely

56:41

is a little bit of blanche and probably

56:43

Sophia too, but yeah,

56:45

I guess I mean I've always been such a huge

56:47

fan of be Arthur's and I

56:51

Mean the fact that I was even in

56:53

rooms with her still boggles my mind Yeah,

56:57

well, let's let's talk about your book. So your

56:59

memoir the girls from Golden to Gilmore. There

57:02

it is. There it is right there The

57:05

fight about this with the publishers stories

57:07

about all the wonderful women I've worked

57:09

with And

57:12

Roseanne I Wanted

57:16

to end Roseanne here and my publishers like

57:18

oh my god, what is she gonna do?

57:20

What's she gonna say and like bring it

57:22

on I'll take There

57:25

would be like a cage match, huh? I

57:27

feel like she would fight fairly I feel like there

57:29

would be biting or something involved. I

57:32

have my money's on you. I think

57:34

really okay I like yeah. Yeah, I

57:36

would get up so much aggression I

57:40

can't tell you the PTSD I have working

57:42

with actors because starting with her

57:46

Yeah, yeah, I mean

57:48

she had all the actors on

57:50

set living in fear even

57:53

I was friends with Sandra burner, but when I came

57:55

down to set Sandra would be like Talk

57:58

to me. I don't want to get

58:00

fired and you don't want to get fired. And you know, the

58:02

first time I saw Lori Metcalf, I just ran up to her

58:04

like, Oh my God, I saw you in New York and blah,

58:07

blah, blah, blah.

58:09

No, it just, it was, it was known

58:12

that she, that Roseanne did not trust the

58:14

writer. So she was always looking to see

58:16

who's talking to them. You know, I, they

58:18

talked behind my back and yeah.

58:21

So add paranoia into the other things

58:24

that she's now going through. It

58:26

kind of checks out in a way. The

58:30

paranoia thing. Yeah.

58:33

Why, why, why did you decide to write

58:35

a memoir and how long did it take

58:37

you? Have you been planning this for a

58:39

long time or? Yeah, it took over seven

58:41

years. So I had the idea just

58:44

because I always would get asked questions like, how

58:46

could you as a man write for all

58:48

these women? And it wasn't just goals and

58:50

girls, but then it started being like almost

58:52

all the shows that we worked on, including

58:55

last year, Jim and I wrote a

58:57

lifetime Christmas movie called the divas Christmas

59:00

with Donna Mills and Nicolette Sheridan and Linda

59:03

Gray and Morgan Fairchild and Lonnie Anderson. So

59:05

it was like, here we go again. So

59:08

I wanted to answer that question. And

59:11

so then I went back, I had kept journals

59:13

during all these years. I went back and pulled

59:15

all the journal entries from the TV shows that

59:18

I worked on because I wanted to compare where

59:20

I was back then to how I'm feeling now

59:22

and how you grow. And then

59:24

it really became a memoir of how

59:27

do you pick yourself up and

59:29

keep going and reinvent yourself in any

59:31

job, not just show business. And

59:34

then not realizing, I didn't

59:37

even know I had outlined it, but not

59:39

really had an ending to it. And unfortunately,

59:41

the ending became the death of my mother

59:43

and the realization that she was

59:45

my one true golden girl. And

59:48

so that I wish I

59:50

didn't have that as the ending of my book, but it's

59:53

what happened in real life. And so I decided to chronicle

59:56

that and put in my journal entries. And I

59:59

think It's very relatable for people. There's so

1:00:01

many people dealing with grief and

1:00:04

figuring out how to move forward through

1:00:06

it and getting

1:00:09

through the really bad days. And there's some days

1:00:11

when you're like, okay, or you're feeling like, yeah,

1:00:13

I feel her. I have her, you know, she's

1:00:15

pushing me forward. And another day is like, you

1:00:18

know, do I want to live in a world

1:00:20

where she's not here? I mean, that was my

1:00:22

initial reaction, to be completely honest.

1:00:25

So I made the mistake or the good

1:00:27

fortune of mentioning that I was writing a

1:00:29

book, one of the early Gilmore Girl Fan

1:00:31

Festivals. So then every year I

1:00:34

would go back, the first question was like, where's the

1:00:36

book? When are you gonna do it? I don't know

1:00:38

how I've outlined it. Well, I'm

1:00:40

working on finding a publisher. And

1:00:42

then somehow magically during COVID, I just buckled

1:00:45

down, you're stuck in your house. And

1:00:47

I got a publisher. And then I was

1:00:50

just, okay. Every day I

1:00:52

created a spot where I would

1:00:54

go, which wasn't my usual spot to sit in. And

1:00:57

I had my espresso or sugar-free Red Bull,

1:00:59

my computer. And I

1:01:02

just like just get a chapter, chapter, chapter.

1:01:04

And then suddenly I had the whole book.

1:01:07

What are the differences? What are the

1:01:09

biggest challenges compared to writing for TV or

1:01:12

for theater? Well, it's extremely

1:01:14

difficult because first of all, it's your own

1:01:16

life. You know, I take

1:01:18

pieces of my own life and use it in

1:01:20

the different plays and TV shows and movies I

1:01:22

write. But this was like, this

1:01:24

was it. And

1:01:27

it was very easy for me to say, oh,

1:01:29

I did this, I did that. And my publishers

1:01:31

kept saying, can you write it as a scene?

1:01:34

And also I'd always written with

1:01:36

somebody else except for my one play.

1:01:39

So it was very difficult to like,

1:01:41

oh, I don't wanna write alone, but

1:01:44

I pushed forward and created

1:01:46

a lot of them as more scenes than

1:01:49

just, he did

1:01:51

this, I said that, blah, blah, blah. But it was

1:01:53

really, really hard. I don't know if I would ever

1:01:56

do it again, but never

1:01:58

know, maybe there's. a

1:02:00

book about the men in my life. Oh,

1:02:02

there you go. Oh, there you go. That was a

1:02:04

bit of a fight. Yeah. So

1:02:07

Stan, before we go to break, I just wanna ask

1:02:09

you for a writer who

1:02:12

is thinking of getting started and

1:02:14

they're worried about Gen AI taking their

1:02:16

job, generative AI, what would you say?

1:02:19

What's your advice? Keep

1:02:22

writing. As

1:02:25

much as they AI can

1:02:27

create kind of format, it will never

1:02:29

be the same as what we feel

1:02:31

here or here. That's

1:02:34

something, you know, the commonality

1:02:36

people find in all my work, whether it's drama

1:02:38

or comedy, they say we can feel your heart.

1:02:41

Well, AI does not have a heart. They

1:02:44

will never have a heart. They can't recreate

1:02:46

what that heart is. And that's something that

1:02:48

is, I feel it just comes

1:02:50

out in my work. You just get that

1:02:52

sense that I care and that I'm sensitive.

1:02:55

And I don't think that can ever be replaced. You

1:02:57

can get kind of the jokes, but

1:03:01

that piece is always what's gonna make

1:03:04

it special. So don't worry about that.

1:03:06

Just turn on your computer and

1:03:09

just start and realize that writing

1:03:11

is rewriting. Did

1:03:14

we do it, Kyle? Yeah. We

1:03:16

did it. We did it, yeah. Yeah.

1:03:19

What did you do at the end of

1:03:22

having sex? Did we do it? I think

1:03:24

we did it. We will get the washcloth,

1:03:26

because I don't know. Yeah. Let's

1:03:29

take a break and get a washcloth then. Okay, there

1:03:31

you go. Let's take a break. Let's take

1:03:33

a break. This

1:03:35

is a part where my So

1:03:43

are we back? We're back. We're back. We're

1:03:46

gonna do our gayest and straightest. We're going to

1:03:48

do our gayest and straightest, but first Stan Zimmerman,

1:03:50

where can people find out more about you, what

1:03:52

you're working on? Tell us all the things. Facebook,

1:03:55

but I love Instagram,

1:03:57

zimmermanstan.com. It's reversed, so you just...

1:04:00

just kind of fucks you up a little bit. Find

1:04:02

me there, talk to me, invite me

1:04:04

to your town. I love

1:04:06

meeting people and hopefully I can bring one of

1:04:09

my plays to your town. Oh, that'd be great.

1:04:11

Come to Seattle. You

1:04:13

have such a good theater town. I've been dying

1:04:15

to come back with something. So I have been

1:04:17

talking with a few people because I know that

1:04:20

suicide awareness is a very big topic in your

1:04:22

community and I would love to bring my play

1:04:24

up there. Yeah, yeah, we'd love it.

1:04:28

And your website again

1:04:30

was zimmermansstand.com. And my

1:04:32

book, The Girls from Golden to Gilmore.

1:04:35

You can buy it on Amazon or

1:04:38

a million other places and let me

1:04:40

know your experiences of watching Golden Girls

1:04:42

with your grandma, mama, mammy, nanny,

1:04:45

nanny, whatever you called her. Great. Grandi,

1:04:49

my grandmother that watched Golden Girls preferred

1:04:51

to be called Grandi because she thought.

1:04:53

Grandi, I love that. Yeah, yeah, because

1:04:55

she's kind of a bitch though to

1:04:57

be honest. Okay. What's

1:05:00

her? Well,

1:05:03

our website is gayishpodcast.com. We're

1:05:06

on socials at Gayish Podcast. Our

1:05:08

hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us

1:05:11

voicemails, especially if it's your Gayish Australia, it says 5855

1:05:13

Gayish. That's

1:05:15

585-542-9474, standard rate supply. Our

1:05:20

email is [email protected]. And

1:05:22

our physical mailing address is post office box 9882

1:05:26

Seattle, Washington 98109. Quick

1:05:29

programming note, our Patreon happy hour happens

1:05:31

quarterly, no matter what level of Patreon

1:05:33

support you are at, you can join

1:05:35

us, have a cocktail, talk

1:05:38

about the podcast, pants optional.

1:05:41

The next one is Wednesday, May the 1st. That's

1:05:43

at 6 p.m. Pacific. Yes, Dan.

1:05:46

That's me. Come on, you wanna come? I'll

1:05:48

be up to, yes, that'd be fun. Great, okay,

1:05:50

we'll send you a new invite. You

1:05:52

had me there, yeah. Some

1:05:57

of our listeners definitely don't wear

1:05:59

pants. to those things. But

1:06:03

yeah, I don't think you

1:06:05

two are right now. So yeah, Oh, well, I'll

1:06:08

never tell. Yeah,

1:06:12

happy, happy hours coming up on May 1 at

1:06:15

6pm Pacific. Look in the

1:06:17

Patreon app for the zoom link. It's

1:06:19

time for a guess. The straightest, Kyle,

1:06:21

do you want to start? Yeah, yeah,

1:06:23

sure. So my straightest is similar

1:06:26

to last week's. This week, I

1:06:28

have not listened to the new Taylor Swift album. Oh,

1:06:32

okay. I know.

1:06:34

Yeah, that

1:06:37

between Beyonce and Taylor, their new albums

1:06:39

out that I'm supposed to have listened

1:06:41

to and become obsessed with already. And

1:06:44

I just have not. So that's my straightest. My

1:06:47

gayest is I went out to a nice dinner, so I got

1:06:49

to dress up all cute. I don't really

1:06:51

have too many reasons to

1:06:53

dress real cute these days. So that was

1:06:55

like a nice, fun excuse.

1:06:58

Was it with that boy you're seeing? No,

1:07:01

no, it was with an old work

1:07:03

friend. My other

1:07:05

straightest is then I went to go eat a steak. Thanks

1:07:11

are gay. I eat

1:07:13

a lot of I

1:07:15

will tell a secret. But Michael

1:07:17

Urie, you know, from ugly Betty

1:07:19

and shrinking. We'll go have martinis

1:07:21

and steak. So that's

1:07:23

pretty gay. Okay, okay.

1:07:26

That's my other. I think

1:07:28

I think you need to like change the pronouns

1:07:30

of your of your state. Mike,

1:07:35

what about you? What about me?

1:07:37

The straightest thing about me this week is I'm

1:07:39

leaving for San Francisco for work in about a

1:07:41

half an hour and I have not packed yet.

1:07:43

Just I feel like straight.

1:07:46

It's very straight bro to just like not

1:07:48

even care and just throw shit in the

1:07:50

suitcase and go that the gayer thing would

1:07:52

be the like fret over all of my

1:07:54

outfits for the week or whatever. Yeah,

1:07:56

I can outfits when you're going there for three

1:07:59

days. Exactly, exactly. And then

1:08:01

the gayest thing about me this

1:08:03

week is because of PrEP, my

1:08:06

close personal relationship with my doctor has

1:08:08

led me to yesterday's appointment

1:08:11

or two days ago, appointment where he

1:08:13

was talking to me about traveling to

1:08:15

Argentina while he had a Q-tip actively

1:08:18

up my ass to treat.

1:08:22

Are you sure with the Q-tip? Well,

1:08:24

I hope it was a Q-tip because it's

1:08:26

not very complimentary to him if it was

1:08:28

anything else. How

1:08:32

about you Stan? What's your gayest experience? The

1:08:34

gayest will be, I just went to New York and of course

1:08:37

I saw a theater and

1:08:40

I saw two really gay

1:08:42

plays, Oh Mary started Cola

1:08:44

Scola who is friggin hysterical

1:08:47

and then the show called

1:08:49

Bathhouse PPTX and there

1:08:51

was about bathhouses and there was

1:08:53

some shoving of something up someone's

1:08:56

butt on stage. So

1:08:58

you don't get gayer than that, I think I won.

1:09:04

100% done. And the straightest, I

1:09:06

don't know, it probably goes the opposite of your

1:09:08

traveling thing so I have to do a work

1:09:10

thing to, it's

1:09:13

gonna sound sad, but

1:09:16

a work thing to Europe this summer and

1:09:18

the straightest thing was like I kept putting

1:09:20

off like making the planes and doing like

1:09:22

man things and being for me

1:09:25

that was straight and I just sat down and

1:09:27

like I figured it out and I programmed

1:09:30

it and got it all the shit done

1:09:32

and so I think that

1:09:34

to me that is straight so maybe that's not

1:09:36

in your book but that may seem very gay

1:09:38

so you see you can go either way. You

1:09:41

can go either way. Well

1:09:46

Stan Zerumans thank you so so much for being

1:09:48

on the show with us, they really appreciate it.

1:09:51

Well I love seeing you two laugh and we need more

1:09:53

of that. Again

1:09:57

everybody Stan's a memoir, the girl is from Gold.

1:10:00

to Gilmore. You can get it on Amazon.

1:10:02

Thank you so, so much for putting all

1:10:04

of your wonderful content out in the world

1:10:06

and making my relationship with my grandmother better.

1:10:10

My pleasure. And I want to

1:10:12

thank our Super Gap Bridgers. Thank you

1:10:14

to Kaylee Adams, Kit Oliver, Pip, Andrew

1:10:16

Bugby, William Bryant, John Carly, Steven Porch,

1:10:18

Joost Osell, Harry Shaw, Jonathan Montanez, Wadu

1:10:20

Forest, Neil Patrick Martin, Steve Douglas, explosive

1:10:23

Zania, Michael Covington, Just Jamie, Thomas B.,

1:10:25

Dusty Sands, A. Coleman, Chris Catratorians, and

1:10:27

Jerome York. Thank you for your support.

1:10:30

Thank you for your money. That's it.

1:10:32

This has been Gayish. From the Chris

1:10:34

Catratoria Studios, I'm Mike Johnson. I'm Kyle

1:10:36

Gipps. Until next week, be butch, be

1:10:38

fabulous, be you. See you next week. What's

1:10:56

the gayest thing about you recently? What's the

1:10:58

straightest thing about you recently? Like a big

1:11:01

winner is always like if somebody works on their

1:11:03

car or does like plumbing around the house and

1:11:05

like that's so butch, that's super straight or

1:11:11

watching sports. Yeah,

1:11:13

that won't be that. Yeah.