0:00

When you know that you are queer but

0:02

your favorite drink is beer that's gay-ish You

0:05

can bottom without stopping but you can't stop

0:07

going shopping that's gay-ish Oh,

0:09

gay-ish, you're probably gay-ish Life's

0:13

just too short for narrow

0:15

stereotypes, oh it's gay-ish We're

0:17

also gay-ish, it's gay-ish with

0:19

Mike and Kyle Hello

0:21

everyone in the podcast universe, this is

0:23

gay-ish The podcast that

0:26

holds these bussies to be self-evident Oh

0:31

my god, oh my god,

0:33

okay That's

0:35

the declaration of in

0:39

dim pants, no I don't know what I'm saying I

0:42

like that I'm Mike Johnson

0:44

I'm Kyle Getz And we're here to

0:47

bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality

0:49

and today Today? This oughta

0:51

be fun Oh god, we're

0:53

gonna talk about otters We're gonna talk

0:55

about otters Uh, we've been

0:57

on the- well we'll talk more about the

1:00

how we got here and when it took us so long

1:03

Yeah, yeah Um,

1:05

but first But first This

1:07

happens a lot, Kyle What

1:09

does? We're out of stuff

1:11

to talk about so, you

1:14

know, like top of the show stuff so the

1:16

news comes real fast It just feels Mike,

1:19

how are you doing? Oh god I'm

1:23

getting over COVID so like my brain is all

1:25

kinds of weird Okay

1:28

I've got the dizzy COVID You've

1:30

got the dizzy COVID? Are you-

1:32

you're sitting down If you fall

1:34

over, I'm gonna call the police

1:36

or something Yeah, I think you're the only

1:38

person that has keys to my place that

1:40

doesn't live here so Okay, okay,

1:43

I've got my eye on you Okay, great

1:45

Well You need to get- you only need to have

1:47

your shit together for like an hour and 15 minutes

1:50

Okay, and really I

1:53

don't even know if I need to hit that together for this

1:56

Okay, great Okay, great. Thanks.

1:58

Thanks, Kyle for- for- Stalling

2:00

no problem. No, it's stalling

2:02

or catching up. Oh Well,

2:05

no if we were catching up, I'd be like, how are you?

2:07

Oh, yeah, but you don't care about that You

2:14

know, it wasn't the purpose But

2:17

now but now I do want to know because no

2:19

other people might want to know My

2:22

big news is I'm starting TMS aka

2:24

brain magnets again. So I got my

2:26

first zippy zap today And

2:29

before the one of the side effects was

2:31

that I was really exhausted after sessions So

2:35

far I'm doing okay, but we'll have to see if

2:37

that picks up once I once

2:39

start going So if I fall asleep, I may fall asleep

2:41

in the middle of this recording just a warning We're

2:43

in tip-top shape Mike great same

2:45

for pushing it. Yep. Well with

2:48

that Ben. Here's the news Shut

2:50

your mouth. Oh time for

2:52

your ear. Oh news news

2:57

Jesus Christ, Kyle. Yeah News

3:00

the first Speaking of Jesus

3:03

Christ sure the United Methodist

3:05

Church has overturned its 40 year

3:07

ban on gay clergy Yeah,

3:11

so they had a big old meeting

3:13

in Charlotte, North Carolina and They

3:17

fought and they fought and they fought

3:19

and then they fought some more and ultimately

3:21

they decided in a 692

3:24

to 51 vote. Oh, wow To

3:29

overturn both its ban on gay clergy penalties

3:32

for holding same-sex marriages and

3:38

No, that's it just those two things I

3:41

mean they did a whole bunch of stuff right like they got together

3:43

and they voted on a bunch of church stuff But like the stuff

3:45

that we care about the gay shit Mm-hmm. Yeah,

3:48

you can be you can be queer and be a

3:51

member of the clergy now in the Methodist Church and They

3:55

Had been holding same-sex marriages for a long,

3:57

long time, but that was technically speaking against

3:59

church. The law and could result result

4:01

in penalties if they were. Found

4:04

out in in like at church

4:06

prosecutor they don't know how that

4:08

works but a different law and

4:10

order. Search

4:12

France Line Order. Trust me you. Let's

4:16

see. so what is it? They had to so

4:18

long conversation about whether they read a split into

4:20

two churches. Boom, the the one that was okay

4:22

with the gaze of the one that wasn't. Oh.

4:25

That. They decided to be. The. Images

4:27

United Methodist Church. It's right there in

4:29

the name of innocent and knighted. So

4:33

they had banned clergy members

4:35

who were quotes self avowed

4:37

practicing homosexuals. I

4:40

like to think of myself as a practicing

4:42

homosexual. I practice it a lot. I've now

4:44

I'm not an expert. Yeah, but I am

4:46

practicing. right? Well and and

4:48

self avowed like. Death.

4:51

Yeah. I. Get. Real

4:53

gay men practicing know or even

4:55

it. And the ban started in

4:58

Nineteen Eighty Four, Which it doesn't

5:00

go unnoticed that that's when the

5:02

Gay rights movement was really gathering

5:04

steam, but also that Hiv Aids

5:06

phobia was rampant and people would

5:09

be in real crazy about it.

5:13

But yet anyway. Anyway,

5:16

Pastor Met Patrick wrote in a

5:18

post on X formerly Twitter quote

5:20

this morning I cried because a

5:22

fight I've been in for so

5:24

long. Sound justice to are no

5:26

longer saying that being gay is

5:28

a sin and no longer banned

5:30

Lgbtq from serving as ministers. Praise

5:32

be to God Cries Willow Hama.

5:34

Great. It's

5:38

it's it's it's oh god

5:40

Ok. I'm news

5:42

the second. Yes, Ah,

5:45

let's see. Let's.

5:47

Start with, let's do this

5:49

when So this last week,

5:51

on Wednesday evening the Youtube

5:54

Public Auditor released a form.

5:56

Encouraging. People to report

5:58

trends individual encountered in

6:01

changing rooms and restrooms

6:03

to state authorities. Oh

6:05

god what an what

6:07

as dicey road because

6:09

whenever. You. Are

6:12

supposed to try to tell by looking

6:14

at to try to try to see

6:16

who's trans. It also sexist people like

6:19

women with for short haircuts for example

6:21

will start getting. Called. Trans

6:23

when they really not

6:26

absolutely absolutely months Or.

6:29

So. This is an online

6:31

form. Titled

6:34

Quote: Alleged government violations of

6:36

Utah Code Sixty Three D

6:38

Chapter Thirty One Distinctions based

6:40

on sex. There's

6:43

a law enacted earlier this year that

6:45

bans trans people from using restrooms the

6:47

match their gender identity in schools as

6:50

well as locker rooms and similar facilities

6:52

in public buildings across the State of

6:54

Utah, including the fucking Salt Lake City

6:56

Airport. apparently. So, one major question during

6:59

the debate of the bill was over

7:01

how those going to be enforced. And

7:04

so they decided the best way

7:06

was to set up a web

7:09

form and collect reports from vigilantes.

7:11

Yeah, but. Apparently first

7:13

of all, zero credible reports

7:15

have been filed in the

7:17

last however, many days for

7:19

five days. But ah, one

7:21

person submitted a report of

7:23

beavers in their bathroom. Another

7:27

one posted a picture from the B

7:30

movie which apparently is a common thing

7:32

that I'm when states or other jurisdictions

7:34

put up these kinds of sites a

7:36

targeting trans people be movie and the

7:39

script of be movie has become a

7:41

thing that they spam. These.

7:44

Web. Sites with foods like a have

7:46

gathered says if a thing with they

7:48

like he is Now I don't think

7:50

I'd necessarily agree with the method here,

7:53

but one person reported Gov Sarah Huckabee

7:55

Sanders as a trans person. Trying

7:58

to illustrate the point that you are just making. Which

8:00

is says people get reported as

8:02

trans all the time just as

8:04

I February. Similar thing happened in

8:06

Indiana and Attorney General Todd Rokita

8:09

release a similar snacks line through

8:11

sports schools. I and got a

8:13

whole bunch of copies of a

8:15

picture of Godzilla holding a Trans

8:17

flag and several bee movie scripts

8:19

as well. Anyway, it just wouldn't

8:22

you after to try to throw

8:24

them off from once. you have

8:26

to submit something that looks credible

8:28

at first like any. Time. I gotta

8:30

be movie script. I would just delete it. Is

8:33

the point that they would get be

8:35

inundated with so many submissions of the

8:37

Bee movie script. the you can actually

8:39

find the real ones? Well. So.

8:42

First. It's just

8:44

a way to be creative. I

8:46

think since that aims internet is

8:48

a way for people to be

8:50

funny, but also maybe it's at

8:52

an attempt at a d dogs

8:54

attack right? Oh okay. Personally,

8:57

take down there something and distributed denial

8:59

of service. Like if it's if you're

9:01

If it's just if it's just accepting

9:04

giant images and a whole bunch of

9:06

scripts and the services set up in

9:08

a way to accept that kind of

9:11

load and. Maybe. That's what they're doing.

9:13

I don't know. I'm.

9:17

Anyway, anyway it's just it's just

9:19

really really really really stupid and

9:22

I are you Drennan of media

9:24

matters. I'm who is at a

9:26

Trans activists that watches these kinds

9:28

of things. I'm said that the

9:30

site is already seen glitches and

9:33

errors. maybe from the number of

9:35

people flooding the form with means

9:37

and I I don't know. Maybe

9:39

maybe we'll hook we can post

9:41

the you are else I'm the

9:44

only people are so inspired and

9:46

the news the last. Yeah,

9:48

see who should not be named but I'm

9:50

going to say her name Jk Rowling I'm

9:52

ah is that. In

9:54

some kind of weird snit as

9:56

usual about trans people, she's has

9:58

been a real. That a real

10:00

bitch about the whole thing, but she

10:03

was pinned down on X on April

10:05

sixth. Giving. What her

10:07

definition of a woman is And she

10:10

says quote, I believe woman is a

10:12

human being who belongs to the sex

10:14

class that produces large gametes. It's irrelevant

10:17

whether or not her gametes have ever

10:19

been perth fertilized. A

10:21

and I'm. So basically

10:24

like. If you make

10:26

eggs, you're a woman it then

10:28

there's no other way to interpret

10:31

that. Guess who replied yesterday? Who

10:33

Ilan fucking Musk replied to that?

10:35

Oh great. Let's get him in

10:38

on the combo. Yeah and.

10:40

He said while I heartily agree

10:42

with your points regarding sex and

10:44

gender, may I suggest also posting

10:46

interesting and positive content on other

10:48

matters. Ah,

10:50

even Ilan mask is like tired

10:52

of the turf balsa. Yeah, yeah,

10:54

even even most goods like great.

10:57

We get it, you're you're managers

10:59

people. Please shut up. Like with

11:01

yes with it's when it known

11:03

trans folk, dick bag puppies asshole

11:05

who's trains kid wants nothing to

11:07

do with him. Is that what

11:09

it's like? Maybe. We should move

11:11

on. Yeah, take a it Yeah,

11:13

it's like that's all Exes known

11:16

for now is like it's for

11:18

porn and terse. Yeah.

11:20

And and at other threads is

11:23

not much better. At least that

11:25

couple of times and I've dipped

11:27

my toe into that cesspool. I'm.

11:30

Basically. The internet is terrible, especially to

11:32

trans people. Yeah, Well

11:35

that's the news. On that note

11:38

of of i'm speaking to people

11:40

that are not terrible. I want

11:42

to think the new patron members

11:44

zero own dilemmas nailed it. Boy,

11:46

I have no no idea if

11:48

I got that right. Troy Jones.

11:51

Pretty certain. under. The other with

11:53

wait did I think you said an easy one

11:55

last week decided like that are you is is

11:57

is a repeat. Oh. Is this a review?

12:00

Are you can see trade zones every week?

12:02

And yes Try! Jones is gonna be my

12:04

guinea every single we assess assess the i

12:06

don't know he did or know. A

12:08

guy laura that. Al.

12:11

Qaeda and Easier. I'm John

12:13

Jeanette he John's and nerdy

12:15

and Devon Daniels rule that's

12:17

afford name this ssssss it

12:19

is seven I'm A. We

12:21

also special shout shout out

12:24

to the other other other

12:26

Derek for updating his name

12:28

to the other other other

12:30

Derek per feedback last time

12:32

when we we mentioned his

12:34

an omelet what our wheels

12:36

assists I know we can

12:39

make meetings or feature on

12:41

name's Thanks Steve you. One

12:43

bonus episodes ad free and a day

12:45

early? Nope. If you want regular episodes

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as free today or leads and you

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and half hours and a lot of

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other other it's really cool bonus content

12:58

than go to patron.com/case podcast. Do.

13:00

It. Do. It says. The

13:04

show sponsored by Better Help make I need

13:06

to tell you something okay. Get off your

13:09

chest Kyle! Looking for jobs? Really frustrating. I

13:11

hate it. It's frustrating every step the way

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I don't like it. Yeah, that sounds stressful

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Get. Off my get off. I don't

13:53

get off with my therapist. I

13:57

get it off my chest.

14:00

Get it off your chest. Then you won't be

14:02

an otter anymore. It

14:05

only makes sense if this airs

14:07

during our Otters episode. I know,

14:09

that's true. Okay. Funny is forever,

14:11

Kyle. Sure. betterhelp.com/gayish. Do

14:14

it. Got weird at the

14:16

end. Yep. Do

14:19

you want to talk about Otters? Let's talk

14:22

about Otters. Let's talk about Otters. So,

14:24

this is like, it's been on the

14:26

list for a long, long, long ass

14:28

time. Yes, it has. I

14:31

think it's, Derek has been requesting

14:33

that we do this for a

14:35

little bit. So, known secret otter,

14:37

Derek. See Otter? Who

14:40

works for us? We're

14:43

going to interview him for the

14:45

Patreon segment. Yeah. And talk about

14:48

everything wrapped up in Otter identity. Yep.

14:51

What are the Otter politics of the day? Oh, yeah,

14:54

it'll be fun to get real life

14:56

updates from a real life Otter. When he floats

14:58

on his back, does he try to hold hands

15:00

with whoever's next to him? We'll find out. Yeah.

15:03

Cute. Uh,

15:06

okay. Well, that was

15:08

fun. That was fun. Is

15:10

this the last on the nose?

15:13

Why the fuck haven't we talked about it yet topic?

15:17

Like, I think we covered lots

15:20

and lots and lots of them, right? We

15:23

have not done gay voice yet. And that's

15:25

another on the nose. Why haven't we done

15:27

it topic? I mean, gay

15:29

identities. Like, I think we're

15:31

through like the initial wheelhouse, I

15:34

think. Okay. Trying

15:37

to think of who we've

15:39

done. Yeah, I think

15:41

so. Okay. So, we

15:44

now know Otters come last. But

15:48

they come eventually. But they eventually,

15:50

eventually they come. All right. We

15:53

do, we have this like document where we keep track of

15:55

all of our ideas. And

15:58

like, this has been on. on there for

16:01

literally like seven years. Yeah, yeah, it's

16:03

been sitting there. So hopefully we do

16:06

it justice. Not

16:08

going to, not in this detail. No. No.

16:13

Okay, well, let's talk

16:15

about otters. Okay. Human

16:17

otters, not bio otters, which

16:20

I've heard the pup community say bio

16:23

pup like humans

16:25

aren't alive. I

16:27

don't. Because like biologically

16:30

a dog. Biodog

16:32

is biologically a dog. All

16:34

right. Whereas humans are not

16:36

biologically dogs. Allegedly. Okay. It's

16:39

fine. Okay, so

16:41

otters. Here's the thing. Otters are part

16:43

of this like gay taxonomy. And I've

16:45

talked about it before on the show,

16:47

but I really wanted to revisit it

16:49

because like it

16:52

feels like what are

16:54

you? What kind of gay are you?

16:56

Is like one of the very first questions that

16:58

you get asked when you come out or when

17:02

there's a hot new celebrity, everybody

17:05

tries to put them in a box. What are those

17:07

boxes and where did they come from? And

17:09

this is one of those weird things where

17:11

we actually know, sort of. So

17:14

on July 26th

17:17

of 1979, an

17:20

article called Who's Who at the

17:22

Zoo was in The

17:24

Advocate. Yes, that The

17:26

Advocate. And

17:29

there was a longtime advocate

17:31

cartoonist named Gerard Donilon who

17:33

tried to canonize all

17:38

of the different kinds of gay and

17:40

how they related to the animal

17:43

kingdom. So there

17:45

had always been classifications of

17:47

like Butch and Femme.

17:50

These things had been around for a

17:53

really long time, but enough people in

17:55

the San Francisco Bay Area especially had

17:57

started to use these animal names for

17:59

different. kinds of gays that the advocate picked

18:01

up on it and did this like picture

18:04

book of, here's, here's what,

18:06

what all of them are. And I

18:08

really looking through it, I guess

18:11

I have some feelings because the

18:13

only one that has survived to this

18:16

day is bear. And

18:20

it's important because almost

18:23

everybody who studied it says

18:26

that otters are just an offshoot of bear. And

18:28

we're going to talk about our

18:30

bears and otters the

18:32

same later, but initially the illustration of

18:34

the bear in the advocate article from

18:36

79, uh, is, is not, uh,

18:42

a large looking figure,

18:45

like bears sort

18:47

of imply a certain

18:49

size of human. And,

18:52

and, and the bear in this picture

18:54

has a big old mustache, uh,

18:57

but is really. Pretty, pretty

18:59

thin body type. And,

19:02

uh, all of them, all of

19:04

them had like general characteristics, what

19:06

they eat meeting peculiarities, natural habitat,

19:09

uh, and domestic rating in this article.

19:11

But the general characteristics for bear was

19:13

just hair. It wasn't hair and size.

19:15

It wasn't hair and weight. It was

19:18

just hair and

19:20

that bears laugh a lot and are generally

19:22

good natured. That's kind of

19:24

adorable. It's kind of adorable. Um, although

19:26

it did say that what they eat

19:28

is beer, right. Fish

19:32

it right out of the river. Yeah,

19:35

right. Exactly. But

19:37

so the other options

19:39

were owls, signet swans,

19:41

peaks and Afghans, gazelles,

19:43

pussy cats, and Mourna sets.

19:46

Um, and again, bear is the only one

19:48

from that list that, that it seems to

19:51

have survived some modern day, but what is

19:53

not in there is. Otter.

19:56

Right. So as near as

19:58

I can tell. moving

20:01

forward, there were similar attempts

20:05

to categorize everybody in the gay

20:07

community, but one

20:10

that I could find that's earlyish

20:12

or earlier was December 18th of

20:14

2012 in The Village

20:17

Voice, New York's alternative newspaper

20:20

from Greenwich Village. It

20:22

was called Bears versus Otters

20:24

versus Wolves, Here's the Rundown,

20:28

and tried to break down those

20:30

things. By that time, it says bears

20:32

are chubby, hairy, masculine,

20:34

gay males who like beer and

20:36

flannel shirts. Cubs are basically

20:39

young bears. Otters are

20:41

slimmer and less hairy bear

20:43

admirers. Wolves

20:49

are bears that are more aggressive and overtly

20:51

masculine. Rawr. Rawr.

20:54

And then it says, as long as we're indulging in gay

20:56

nature lingo, though, I wonder what a wolverine is. Did

21:01

you hear that Hugh Jackman might be gay? I

21:03

heard that a bunch, yes. But

21:05

gay Twitter was a flutter. Oh,

21:08

this is a recent thing? Like two weeks

21:10

ago, saying that he was for sure banging

21:12

that boy. Anyway. Oh, no, I didn't

21:14

know that. I haven't followed up on

21:16

it. I just basically, whatever my boyfriend tells me, I

21:18

believe. Okay.

21:22

So by 2012, otters and bears

21:24

have split into this thing, but

21:27

there is this tie that otters

21:29

are slimmer and

21:31

less hairy bear

21:34

admirers. And not

21:36

sure when otters became

21:38

a thing, but that's where it evolved to

21:40

by 2012. I

21:43

read a bunch of things that had

21:45

definitions and nothing in what I read

21:47

said bear admirers. That's a new one

21:49

to me of like trying to

21:51

define an otter. Oh, that's interesting.

21:54

Yeah. Well, the village voice thinks

21:56

so. Or at least my... I mean, they're

21:58

the experts, not me. Michael Musto of... the

22:01

village voice thinks so. Then

22:03

there was also in 2013 just

22:05

after that there was a series of posters

22:09

that was made for Pride that

22:11

looks sort of like, I don't know, tarot

22:14

cards, but it was the

22:16

bear, the otter, the twink, the twink, the drag queen, and

22:18

the butch. And they

22:20

were $18 each and the proceeds

22:22

went to Think Before You Speak

22:24

campaign, which

22:27

supported LGBT teens. It

22:30

was in 2013 and the

22:32

otter won, if I

22:35

can get it to load. Load

22:37

that otter. Lean build

22:39

with a layer of scruff, laid

22:42

back and never too serious. Is that a

22:44

sweater or is that just his chest? The

22:50

level of hair seems inconsistent on

22:53

these definitions. Well, is it

22:55

less hairy or is it so hairy it

22:57

looks like a sweater? Well, and not just

22:59

less hairy than bears. But

23:03

yeah, you're right.

23:05

How much hair is necessary to be considered

23:09

an otter? There

23:11

is a huge spike on

23:13

Google Trends in 2016 for

23:15

reasons that I do not

23:17

understand, except I think that's

23:19

when looking came out and

23:22

there's some conjecture that maybe that's,

23:27

oh, looking was 2014, but

23:29

that a lot of gay terms were popularized by that

23:31

show being on HBO. That's

23:35

what I've got though.

23:37

Otters have now turned

23:39

into a tribe on Grindr, which is

23:41

great, and just means

23:45

skinny, hairy dudes. At least that's how

23:47

I understand it. Yeah. Maybe

23:50

I will read

23:52

on LGBTQA.wiki slash

23:56

Wiki/otter. Is

24:01

a big long definition of.

24:04

What? An otter is and I wrote

24:06

down anything that like. Describes

24:08

what what they are. Okay, maybe I'll

24:10

read through some of those Athena it

24:13

is. This sounds like a definitive source

24:15

code. That. Sounds like. Experts.

24:19

It's I would. I would hope that

24:21

Lgbtq A.wiki is A is a good

24:23

source, but we'll see. I mean to

24:25

read this and one we can see

24:27

how much we agree with. sorry I'm

24:29

It says it blends the physical and

24:31

social traits of bears and tweaks Okay,

24:34

which I could see somewhere between baron

24:37

twins I could see that being an

24:39

otter, but unlike. Not not

24:41

between them, but across of them.

24:43

You. Eat. When.

24:46

Indifference. It's not like

24:48

it's not like there's a slider and on one end

24:50

as tweaking when into as bear and users like slight

24:52

it is somewhere in the middle is otter. I think

24:54

it's like specific. See.

24:57

Any know. Maybe. Not. Like.

25:00

I don't think that like otters. He.

25:02

More than tweaks or. Like

25:05

I mean asserted of tweets are that they

25:07

don't need it off. So. I think

25:09

they do eat more than swings. Okay,

25:12

or it isn't that the

25:14

stereotype? Maybe he? Well, yeah.

25:18

But. I also think otters don't eat.

25:20

Oh. And went one sitting right here

25:22

listening to us. So I like. Z

25:26

This in a definition it said

25:28

they both invoked in defy traditional

25:31

masculinity. Which. That

25:33

was a theme of like

25:35

that. That doesn't really help.

25:38

Define anything because I think that's

25:40

just every one. You have some

25:42

and don't have some masculine traits.

25:45

Like. Isn't that just everyone in

25:47

the world? share? And.

25:50

It okay okay I'll go all

25:52

evil on Jk on you

25:54

earn Like it. In a world

25:57

where we equate. Gender

25:59

with set. which we shouldn't, but

26:01

if we do, like

26:05

the Y chromosome makes hairy happen.

26:08

And so it seems like hair

26:11

and size, two of the things that like

26:13

the Y chromosome does to people seem

26:16

associated with masculinity and the hair

26:19

part for sure means

26:21

otters. So, but the size part doesn't?

26:24

I don't know. Yeah,

26:26

so yeah, this interesting combination

26:28

of having some masculine

26:30

qualities and not others seems to be a,

26:32

was a common theme in the definition. It

26:36

said, while otter culture tends towards

26:38

the masculine, it isn't as masculine

26:40

dominated as bear culture. It

26:44

described them as average build with a fair amount of

26:46

body hair. It says, again,

26:48

they usually dress in a way that

26:51

combines traditional masculinity with a subversion of

26:53

it. So again, like this has some

26:55

masculine qualities and some defying

26:58

masculine qualities seem to keep

27:01

coming up. It described them as

27:03

casual, frequently considered to be laid back.

27:06

It said that they were almost always

27:08

welcome in bear centric spaces, despite their

27:11

differences. It said they were calm.

27:13

Is that true? Is that true? I

27:16

think so. First of all,

27:18

I'm kind of blown away with the idea of otter

27:20

culture because some part of me

27:22

thinks of otters as being like lone wolves or

27:24

something. They don't

27:27

travel in packs. Like, I don't know. But,

27:30

um. Too much competition. But

27:32

the idea that an otter could navigate

27:35

a bear space more effectively than a

27:37

non otter that wasn't

27:39

a bear is interesting to

27:41

me. I think otters are included in

27:44

bear culture in

27:47

bear spaces. Okay, all

27:49

right. Just like cubs are a different

27:52

offshoot but are also included in bear

27:54

spaces. Okay,

27:57

calm, laid back and casual, occasionally compared

27:59

to bear. to the guy next door stereotype.

28:02

And then finally, fairly common for an

28:04

otter to become a bear as he

28:07

ages, particularly as the physical aging of

28:09

men and others with testosterone dominant bodies

28:11

tends to bring them in line with

28:13

the body type expected of bears. So

28:16

an otter might just be a bear in training.

28:19

I feel that sort of. Let

28:22

me think. Let me. My

28:24

brain is not great. Okay. It's

28:27

like twinks and cubs and

28:29

otters are for the young, but bear is forever.

28:32

Oh, like

28:34

I do think that less

28:37

so than twink and cub. I

28:39

think an otter can age out also. Like

28:41

I don't, I don't associate like you either become

28:44

a bear or a daddy. I don't,

28:46

I don't think you can maintain your

28:48

otterness into your sixties.

28:51

That's true. Yeah. Twink, otter

28:53

and cub all have like a youthful

28:55

quality to it. At least an overtone.

28:58

Yeah. Yeah. Which

29:00

okay. The

29:03

actual definition of what an otter is,

29:05

I think is kind of nebulous and

29:07

hard to completely nail down because like,

29:09

I think just like we said with twinks, like

29:13

any one quality we give it as a descriptor,

29:15

you could probably come up with a counter example.

29:17

This like, Nope, this person isn't this

29:20

thing, but still counts as a twink. I feel like

29:22

otters are like that too. Like any way

29:24

you try to describe them, you

29:27

could probably find someone that is

29:29

an otter and doesn't meet that

29:31

specific criteria. So it's, so

29:34

we're just giving very like vague generalizations

29:36

for now. And like

29:38

all generalizations, I think that it's

29:40

probably, it's not okay to thrust

29:42

that label on someone else, like

29:46

you have to self identify, do not

29:48

ask somebody if they're pregnant, unless

29:50

you see a baby coming out

29:52

of them. Like don't assume somebody's

29:55

otter and let's say they

29:57

are one. Yep. Absolutely. Or

30:00

a beer or a twink or a jock or

30:02

Jim bunny or whatever. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay.

30:05

That was more just definitions. Can I

30:07

get into some of the data? I

30:09

hope you do. There's other data. That's

30:11

interesting. Well, all I did

30:13

was find, I could only find three

30:15

studies that mention otters at all. So

30:17

I want to tell you about those

30:19

three studies. There's not much tangible data.

30:22

I just wanted to tell you about

30:24

what kinds of context that they

30:26

come up in. These are, these are human

30:28

otters. These are human otters.

30:30

Yep. Great. Yep. There

30:32

were other studies that mentioned bio otters, but

30:35

you know, the first one I

30:37

found it in was a study

30:39

called physical behavioral and psychological traits

30:42

of gay men identifying as bears

30:44

by David M. Moskowitz, Jonathan Terberchi,

30:46

Hector Lozano and Christopher Heijjak in

30:49

2013 in archives

30:51

of sexual behavior. And it said

30:53

there are many different subdivisions within

30:56

the bear community. Men

30:58

are categorized primarily by their hairiness, but

31:00

also by their weight, age and ethnicity,

31:03

and it gave a list of divisions

31:06

within the bear community. Oh,

31:09

this sounds bad. This

31:12

is the list. Oh no. There's

31:14

grizzly bears who

31:17

are white, hairy and heavier men.

31:19

Wait, what, what not a polar bear? There

31:22

are polar bears, which are

31:24

older men with graying or white hair. Oh,

31:27

okay. There are cubs, which are

31:29

younger, hairy men. But

31:31

doesn't that, does that apply like

31:33

smaller to you also? Yeah,

31:35

maybe a little less hair or a little smaller.

31:37

I used to give them as being like, like,

31:39

like a, like a booboo to the yogi. Yeah.

31:43

Yeah. I can see that for sure. Uh,

31:45

there's big teddy bears, which

31:48

I don't think of that as a separate

31:50

category, but it defined them as

31:52

men who are hairy yet heavier than grizzly bears.

31:55

There are otters, men who are

31:57

hairy, but thin was their definition.

32:00

Okay, okay. Not just smaller

32:02

than but thin. Yeah,

32:05

which is that's where if you want to

32:08

think of them as like a cross between

32:10

bears and twinks, the thin

32:12

part is what they pick up from the twinks and

32:14

the hairs what they pick up from the bears. I

32:17

do think also going back to the teddy bears,

32:19

sorry, going back to

32:21

teddy bears, there are some bears who are

32:23

just like big happy

32:26

want to hug them types.

32:28

And there are bears that are

32:30

terrifying. Like

32:32

drag queens. Yeah.

32:36

Although do not hug a drag queen.

32:38

No matter how nice she is, you're

32:41

going to fuck up her makeup and that's going to

32:43

get you a shoe to the face. Yeah. Other

32:46

classifications that encompass ethnic

32:48

variations are. Oh no,

32:51

Kyle. I know. This study said

32:54

black bears, hairy men of

32:56

color. Okay. That's a little on the nose.

32:58

And then this one, I don't know,

33:01

panda bears, hairy

33:04

Asian or Pacific Island men. Oh

33:06

no. I don't know if

33:08

you should, like this is again, like

33:10

don't call someone this unless they self-define

33:12

that way. Yeah. Yeah. I agreed.

33:16

So what it said directly after

33:19

giving all of these kind of

33:21

divisions of within the

33:23

bear community, it said, despite physical

33:26

differences within the bear community, most men

33:28

subscribe to a shared identity. Masculinity

33:30

is praised and therefore celebrated within

33:32

the community. And

33:34

then it said, quote, there is

33:37

a dearth of general research regarding

33:39

this community and no studies to

33:41

date that use quantitative methods. So

33:44

there aren't even that many studies

33:46

about bears, much less just studies

33:49

plainly about otters. Well, okay. And

33:52

for all of those nebulous reasons that we

33:54

were talking about, can you empirically study a

33:57

difficult to define population? Well,

34:00

I think then you just use self-definitions. That

34:02

would be interesting to find out who defines

34:04

themselves as an otter and what are their

34:06

characteristics. If you call yourself an

34:10

otter, what's the average age of that

34:12

person? What's the average hairiness of

34:15

that person? What's the average race of that

34:17

person? I think it'd be

34:19

fun to work backwards. I

34:21

wonder, is there an objective

34:24

way to measure hairiness? That's

34:28

interesting, because there are a

34:30

hairometer that you can... Yes,

34:32

the hairometer scale. They

34:34

have a hairy quiz. Okay,

34:37

the second study that I

34:39

found that mentioned otters was

34:42

called Assessing Bear Cub Otter Identity and

34:44

History with Cardiovascular Disease Among Gay

34:46

Bisexual and Other Men Who Have Sex

34:49

With Men in Metro Vancouver. And this

34:51

study is by a whole host

34:53

of people. I'm assuming Canada and not

34:55

the shitty one. I

34:58

will also assume that because I don't

35:00

have that written down anywhere. But this

35:02

came out in 2021 in the Canadian...

35:05

Oh, Canadian, yeah, the Canadian Journal of

35:07

Human Sexuality. So they,

35:09

in Metro Vancouver, they

35:11

looked at men who have sex with men

35:13

and the percentage that identified

35:15

as bear slash cub slash otter is

35:18

21.3%. Interesting,

35:23

okay. I then,

35:26

taking my own assumptions, I assume

35:28

there's more bears than there

35:30

are otters. I

35:33

think that's... I would

35:35

agree with that. I have no data,

35:37

but yes, I'm with you. So

35:40

if we said that half of them are bears,

35:43

that leaves 10% or less

35:45

that would identify as otters. So...

35:47

Or cubs. Or cubs. Are

35:50

you crying cubs bears? No, but

35:53

I don't know. I don't have any felt sense

35:55

of how many cubs versus otters there are. I

35:58

just felt like a majority were probably...

36:00

bears. So that's the only way I

36:02

could like in myself try

36:04

to get down to an

36:06

more specific number. Less than 10 percent.

36:09

My guess is less than 10 percent of the

36:11

community identifies as an otter. I think

36:14

that's probably safe. Actually,

36:16

now that I like kind of sit on the number

36:18

a little bit nice, that's a nice number. Get

36:21

in there. 20 percent

36:24

seems high. Like we've gotten

36:26

feedback or at least anecdotal evidence that like a

36:28

lot of people don't feel like they belong to

36:30

any of these tribes. And in fact it can

36:32

be distressing for some people that they don't know

36:34

which box they're supposed to be in, which girl

36:36

don't be in a box, then it's fine. Yeah.

36:39

And like it can be

36:41

alienating especially I think when you first come out.

36:44

But 20 percent seems high to me. Yeah. Yeah.

36:47

Anyway. That's a sis. Yeah,

36:50

we should say this. I

36:52

know we've said it before but it's worth repeating just

36:54

what you said is like a lot

36:56

of times there are all these categories. But

36:59

I've seen things that say like most people

37:01

don't put themselves into a specific category that

37:03

don't have. So it is it is

37:05

okay to not feel like you fit

37:07

in with a twink or bear or cub

37:09

or otter or you know whatever else people

37:13

might define themselves as.

37:15

And actually a lot

37:17

of people also don't fit into

37:19

these predefined boxes. I mean

37:22

I do think that like especially

37:24

when we first come out we have

37:26

just such a deep sense of like

37:29

a need to belong and a

37:31

desire to find community. And I

37:33

do think that some of these things can provide a shorthand

37:36

for community.

37:38

Yeah. Maybe that's driving a

37:41

lot of the appeal.

37:44

Like I don't know. I

37:48

do think that people get a lot of people

37:50

do get a lot of community out of out

37:53

of an identity like that. Yeah. Like leather I

37:55

know also is like they have a

37:58

strong sense of community. It helps people. them feel like

38:00

they fit in. There are like,

38:02

you know, it's a little bit more structured. There

38:04

are events and rules and stuff that you follow.

38:07

So it can, yeah, I agree. I think it

38:09

can help get you

38:11

a sense of feeling of a very direct

38:13

feeling of community right away. Just like I

38:15

think bears can, you know, going

38:18

to bear events, bear culture

38:20

can make you feel like you have a community right

38:22

away. Yeah. Yeah. I

38:25

also think it can make you

38:27

feel like when you don't realize that a lot

38:29

of people don't fit into any of these identities.

38:32

I think when you see all of these identities,

38:34

when you first come out, it can make you

38:37

feel a little alienated because you're like, Oh, what

38:39

am I? I don't know. Okay. Do I have

38:41

to pick one of these and what am I?

38:43

And, and it can make you feel like you

38:45

don't really belong when really you don't have to.

38:48

Right. You don't have to. Um,

38:51

the third thing that I found was

38:53

a book. So I got no, I

38:55

could find no actual like specifics

38:57

on what it said. All I know, this

38:59

was the bear book too. Oh,

39:02

great. So there was enough information on bears.

39:04

Yeah. That we needed a sequel. Um,

39:07

is there a cliffhanger? Yes.

39:11

Does the bear fall in love or not? Wait,

39:14

he probably like was about

39:16

to fall in love and then, Oh, I have to hibernate.

39:19

Yeah. What

39:22

happened? And then when he came back, he didn't

39:24

like his love interest was

39:26

gone. So now he's got to search and find

39:28

them and clues and a whole,

39:30

anyway. Okay, go ahead. What a compelling bear

39:32

story. Um, this is

39:34

a book by less right came out in

39:36

2001 and chapter four was called

39:41

by any otter name, the

39:44

negative space of the bear. Sure.

39:47

The negative space of the bear. Yeah.

39:51

I wish I knew more about what that meant, but

39:53

again, I'm not going to buy this fucking book and

39:55

read it just for this one podcast. So sorry. Yeah.

39:59

Um, yeah. Yeah. All I know

40:01

is that bears and

40:03

otters are always mentioned within the

40:05

same breath, particularly in

40:07

studies that do mention otters. Mm-hmm.

40:11

Mm-hmm. Well,

40:13

there's some evidence to suggest that it's

40:15

a newer term. It's

40:18

reached critical mass. It's out

40:20

there. People know it. People use it.

40:22

But I think maybe it's going

40:25

to take a little longer for otters to find their way. For

40:28

them to get their own studies? Yeah, exactly.

40:30

Yeah. Let's start studying trans people

40:32

first before we study

40:35

otters, if we're going to really pick one

40:37

community to... one understudied

40:39

community go after. Yep. Yep.

40:43

I have a punch line, but no joke. Okay.

40:47

Great. I just... I really want... I desperately

40:49

want to say otter modipia. I

40:54

don't know what it means. I like it. Great.

40:57

Okay. If you have the beginning of

41:00

this joke, text it in to us.

41:03

5855G. Standard

41:05

raise reply. Standard raise reply. Okay,

41:09

Kyle. Yeah. Hey, Kyle.

41:11

Hey, Mike. I can't not talk

41:13

about real otters. Sure. Bio

41:15

otters. Okay. Let's do it. Were

41:17

you done with the gator? I was done with

41:20

the gator, yeah. Okay. Your face

41:22

said maybe done with the gator. Oh,

41:24

yeah. Good social cue picking

41:26

up on. Yeah. Doing

41:29

great. Okay. What's

41:32

the interesting stuff to pull out of

41:34

here, though? Okay. So first

41:36

of all, the

41:38

word otter. I love

41:40

me some etymology, Kyle. It

41:42

comes from otter or

41:44

otter in Old English,

41:48

which comes from the same Proto-Indo-European

41:50

root word as the word water.

41:53

So otter and water come from the same

41:55

place because that's where

41:57

they belong in rivers and streams.

41:59

streams and lakes and seas. Yeah.

42:03

Okay. Do you know what an otter's house

42:05

is called? Where they make their home? This

42:08

sounds like an otter-monopoeia. This sounds like the

42:10

set up to a joke. It's otter-monopoeia. An

42:14

otter's den is called a holt.

42:18

Like Lester Holt or that hot boy

42:20

from the X-Men. Or

42:24

a couch. They also call it a couch.

42:26

So if you're looking for otters, check

42:28

the couch. Oh, I might be an otter

42:30

then. Maybe. Male

42:33

otters are called dogs or boars. Females

42:37

are called bitches or sows. Aww.

42:40

Bitch. And their offspring are called pups

42:42

or cubs. Cute. Then there's

42:44

a bunch of fun collective

42:46

nouns. You know, like murder of crows and

42:48

all of those. That shit. The

42:51

ones for otters are bevy. That's

42:54

a good one. Family.

42:57

Oh. Lodge. Or my

42:59

favorite, a romp. A

43:02

romp of otters? A romp of otters. That

43:06

is a good way to describe like a

43:08

group of like an otter gathering. Like a

43:11

human otter gathering to describe a group

43:13

of otters as a romp of otters

43:15

is really good. So despite saying

43:17

earlier, I didn't think that they traveled in packs. Now I want to

43:19

encounter a romp of otters. A romp

43:22

of otters, of course. I can announce to

43:24

them that that's what they're doing. But

43:26

unfortunately, you can't call someone

43:29

an otter without them identifying themselves

43:31

as one. Now I need to

43:33

find a group of otters who then says,

43:35

we're otters. So I could say, you're a

43:37

romp. That's a long way to

43:39

go just to call them a romp. But

43:42

one day, one day, my chance will

43:44

come. It's going to be so worth

43:46

it. Also apparently

43:48

some people call otters that are

43:50

in water a group of them is a raft.

43:53

Oh, okay. A raft of otters.

43:56

Because when otters sleep, they hold

43:59

hands. So that they

44:01

can't cheat on each other. So

44:03

otter poop is called a sprain

44:07

Okay, I didn't

44:09

know we had to have specific names

44:11

for the poop of different animals I

44:13

didn't either but like apparently otter poop

44:15

is has a distinctive smell

44:19

That's been described as freshly

44:21

moaned hay for putrefied

44:23

fish Yeah

44:28

And then just a couple of queer like

44:30

like sort of associations, I guess North

44:34

miss Norse mythology talked

44:36

of there's a dwarf

44:38

named otter Who was a

44:40

shapeshifter and could take any shape that he

44:42

wanted to and he did In

44:45

fact, some people would take issue with

44:47

calling him a he but usually resembled

44:49

being a dwarf but

44:52

also loved turning into an otter and

44:55

it's just interesting that like I Don't

44:58

know like if you could if you could take any

45:00

form at all You would like

45:02

would you pick otter and just eat a

45:04

whole bunch of fish? I might pick unicorn.

45:06

Okay, okay Yeah.

45:10

Oh, yeah, I forgot about this. So in

45:12

in in a lot of Norse mythology Sources

45:16

all dwarfs are male, which is gay

45:18

as fuck Why

45:21

is that gay because it's all dudes

45:23

like like Snow White do you really think all of

45:25

them were like into her? Mmm,

45:29

I don't think so. Yeah sleeping

45:31

for that dick Yeah,

45:33

and then in Irish mythology, I just thought

45:36

this was adorable. There's a character named Lee

45:38

Bon and she

45:41

was turned into a mermaid

45:43

that was half human and half salmon

45:46

and given 300 years of

45:48

life to roam the oceans and To

45:53

keep her company her dog turned

45:55

into an otter Hmm and

45:58

shared her wanderings That's

46:02

not gay, I just thought it was adorable. Okay,

46:04

that is sweet. And in

46:06

Korean mythology, apparently if you see an otter, it

46:08

means that you will attract rain clouds for the

46:10

rest of your life. For

46:13

the rest of your life? I

46:16

think that's why there's so many otters in Seattle. Wow,

46:18

that's a quite

46:21

the lifetime burden. Yeah,

46:24

indeed. Indeed. That's

46:28

just some stuff about real otters, Kyle. Okay.

46:30

You said you had some stuff about real

46:32

otters too. Speaking of stuff about real otters,

46:35

I read a Vox article by Dylan Matthews

46:37

that was called The Case Against Otters. Necrophiliac

46:40

serial killing fur monsters of

46:43

the sea. They rape

46:45

baby seals and hold each other's pups

46:47

hostage for food. Now

46:50

we're talking. So this

46:52

is the drama I wanted, Kyle. There

46:56

are some pros to otters and

46:59

that is like the, you

47:01

know, they hold each other's hands, they

47:03

juggle rocks, they baby

47:06

otters that are raised in captivity when they're

47:09

first introduced for water, they squeak. So

47:13

there are some pro things. What? Oh

47:16

my God. And they do gay stuff. And they

47:18

do gay stuff. I forgot to mention that. There's

47:20

like a list. There's like a list. The dude

47:22

wrote this whole book that was just a

47:25

list of like animals that fuck other animals

47:27

of the same gender and otter

47:29

was on it. Oh nice. So

47:31

otters are gay for at

47:33

least two reasons. But

47:36

the cons to real otters is they attack

47:38

humans. Well, I mean,

47:40

we kind of suck. That's

47:42

true. I'm not saying it's not justified. I'm

47:44

just saying it happens. Yep. Okay.

47:48

They kill other animals. We, they

47:50

have been seen. We eat them.

47:52

We kill them and eat them. So

47:55

what were you saying? You were saying that we're just as

47:57

bad as otters? Maybe.

48:00

Well, the next one

48:02

is their necrophiliac. Okay,

48:04

well, they're less likely to do

48:06

that. Yeah, they've been seen copulating

48:08

with dead carcasses. Male

48:10

otters sometimes hold pups ransom to force their

48:13

mothers to give up some of their food.

48:15

I did read that male

48:17

otters only hang out with other

48:19

male otters until it's time to

48:21

fuck. Oh, see,

48:23

it's opposite for me. Yeah,

48:26

exactly. And

48:28

lastly, 70% of otters

48:30

tested positive for swine flu.

48:33

What? Yeah. That's

48:35

wild. So they carry swine flu. So

48:38

otters seem all cute, but just know there are

48:41

some more murderous necrophiliac

48:43

kind of avenues that otters can

48:45

go down. I mean, really, the

48:47

worst thing is the necrophilia. If you can get

48:50

past that, you know... The rest

48:52

isn't so bad? The rest isn't so bad. Yeah.

48:56

They do make terrible pets. I didn't hear

48:58

that. Okay, that's good to know. So

49:01

do gay otters. Depends

49:04

on which one you get. You

49:07

got to foster them at a young age so

49:09

that you can housebreak them. They have to imprint

49:11

on you so that

49:14

they don't want to eat your face. Yeah. Can

49:17

I read you two quotes from otters,

49:19

from human otters? Okay.

49:24

This is from a pink news article by

49:26

Danny Polaris called, What is an Otter?

49:28

The Gay Tribe for Lean Guys with a Bit

49:30

of Scruff. Okay. And

49:33

the first quote is from Joel

49:35

Olson, a self-proclaimed otter who started

49:37

otterj.com. OtterJ.com?

49:41

I don't know what that is, but

49:44

that's apparently an otter community. Is it just

49:47

the little letter J? Just the

49:49

letter J, yep. J-A-Y? Nope,

49:51

just the letter J. Okay. Oh,

49:55

oh my. What? Just

49:57

the, there's the very first, like, went to

49:59

OtterJ. dot com and it redirected.

50:02

But when it got done redirecting,

50:04

it was just a hairy torso.

50:08

A sexy one. Yeah. I

50:10

did that. I'd lay on top of that. Josh

50:15

said, quote, some people see

50:17

it as a slimmer variation of the bear

50:19

community, but in practice, it seems to be

50:21

as much about style and aesthetic as the

50:23

body itself. And Otter is like

50:25

the guy next door, but with an edge. Otters

50:28

are the guy next door that has grown

50:30

up a bit. They become more sexually adventurous

50:32

and experienced. Furthermore, the fact

50:34

that they no longer, they're no longer

50:36

pruning their body hair to such an

50:38

extent may imply that they're just more

50:40

comfortable in their own skin, in their

50:43

own body, and with their personal level

50:45

of hairiness. And

50:49

Gareth, a self-proclaimed otter living

50:52

in Berlin, said, I would

50:55

classify myself as an otter since I'm

50:57

hairy in all the right places, apparently

50:59

masculine and skinnier than a cub

51:01

or a bear. I prefer to

51:03

think of my build as slender anyways,

51:05

though. I'm a slender gender bender. Being

51:09

an otter is somehow entirely a phase. Lots

51:12

of men grow old and maybe get a

51:14

bit broader around the waist. But

51:16

where's the threshold between being an otter and a bear?

51:18

Is it in the size of your

51:20

waist or is it in your age

51:23

after all? I've never really understood that

51:25

personally. Anyway, I'm classified as

51:27

an otter and I can't even swim

51:29

properly. So that's really funny. I

51:33

do personally find guys with a bit of scruff

51:35

to be more attractive. It's just a personal taste.

51:38

However, I've also had partners who would be

51:40

classified as twinks as well as proper fully

51:42

fledged daddies. I haven't got a massively hairy

51:44

chest, but I do have a really hairy

51:46

ass and a nice full beard, and I

51:48

like that a lot. On my

51:51

body, it's all very all-natural. I don't spend

51:53

so much time grooming and that's absolutely perfect

51:55

for me. You

51:58

know, you're making me realize or think. The

52:02

90s, I think

52:04

of like hairless, hairless bodies,

52:07

everyone's super clean shaven. That was

52:11

like, that was the ideal that was

52:13

being presented. And

52:15

that's definitely shifted, right? Like facial

52:17

hair has been a thing now for a

52:20

while. And I think

52:23

that like, trimmed instead of

52:26

shaved, if taken care of at

52:28

all, is is more the norm.

52:30

And I wonder if that's like

52:32

the rise of the otter is

52:34

just from the shifting societal

52:37

acceptance of body

52:39

hair. Yeah. Yeah.

52:41

And I liked that this also introduced the

52:44

idea of like people that are a little

52:46

bit more confident in their own bodies and

52:48

their own hair. And I think

52:51

I wonder if those two things go

52:53

hand in hand, societal acceptance and more confidence

52:55

in your own body hair. Yeah.

52:59

Yeah, I don't know. Do I fit

53:01

into any of these? Am I I don't know

53:03

if I'm like, it just

53:05

talks about hairy as like bears and

53:08

otters. Well,

53:10

part of their definition. So I don't know

53:12

if I'm like fit into one of these

53:14

communities by definition. So

53:17

interestingly enough, I

53:19

don't know where this is coming from. But I think you're

53:21

too tall to be an otter. Mm. I

53:25

think that there's a maximum height for otter

53:28

and you are past it. I

53:30

don't know where that's coming from. But like, it is a it

53:32

is a it is a thing for me. When

53:34

I was asking one of my friends to

53:37

if he could define otters, a

53:39

gay friend, he said, longer torso was

53:41

in his definition.

53:44

Okay. Yeah. I

53:47

don't. Yeah, I don't really feel like I

53:49

fit into any of these communities. Yeah, well,

53:51

and then there's like, where

53:53

what would you what you self

53:56

identify as? What would

53:58

you fit in with if you were to like

54:00

try to hang out, where

54:03

would you be accepted? Yeah. This

54:06

all is tricky,

54:08

man. Yeah, I don't know where I belong,

54:10

Mike. Right here. Right

54:14

here, right now. Well,

54:17

now you gotta put that on the list. What's

54:19

that phone call? We

54:24

can figure out later. Or you're

54:26

gonna do it now. I'm gonna do it now. That's

54:29

Jesus Jones, right here, right now, but Jesus

54:31

Jones. Watching the world wake up

54:33

from history and be okay with hair. I

54:36

don't know, Kyle. I never felt like I

54:38

fit into any of them either. And I

54:40

think I'm just okay with that. Yeah.

54:44

Although lately, the daddy thing, but there's

54:46

no daddy community. We're all too busy

54:48

hunting twinks, so. Do

54:52

you self-identify as a daddy? On

54:55

your profile, would you put group

54:58

daddy? No, but I do,

55:00

oh wait, maybe I have. Hold on. But

55:04

I do have that daddy t-shirt

55:06

that you gave me. It

55:08

is front and center in a couple of my

55:10

app profiles. And

55:14

I know that that was a selling

55:16

point for boyfriend, too. So

55:21

you're like, it's on my tags,

55:23

Kyle. Wow, Mike, you do

55:25

self-identify as a daddy, but you didn't realize

55:27

it. My tags,

55:29

cuddling, clean cut, daddy,

55:31

gaming, oral, nipples, edging,

55:34

kissing. Wow, is

55:36

this on Grindr? Yeah. I

55:40

guess I am, Kyle. I've arrived.

55:45

I always put guy next door, which

55:48

when this described Otters as the guy next

55:50

door, I was like, huh. I

55:52

think guy next door works for you. I really do. Yeah,

55:56

and because

55:59

you're nice, It's

56:01

all a facade, but it's... People

56:04

assume that I'm very clean cut and

56:08

very nice, which is how

56:10

I try to make people think that I

56:12

am. Right. Exactly.

56:15

Yeah. Mission accomplished. Yeah. Did

56:19

we do it? Yeah, I think so.

56:22

I don't know that, like, I mean,

56:24

no, but like, it's hard to pinpoint

56:27

an exact definition of an otter

56:29

and you should mostly leave it

56:31

to people to define themselves. Yeah.

56:34

And one thing that we didn't really go over

56:36

is how to tell the

56:38

difference, because I don't think there is one,

56:41

between otters and

56:44

wolves and foxes. And

56:47

I've heard other animal terms that are all

56:49

in the, like, not

56:51

as big as a bear, but equally hairy.

56:54

And werewolf implies, like,

56:57

bodybuilder build, but the other ones,

56:59

it's, there's a lot of overlap,

57:01

I think. I've never heard, is

57:03

werewolf a subcategory of gay men?

57:08

Maybe just in the circle of Iran? I don't know. Oh,

57:11

I've never heard that. Oh, okay.

57:13

Well, you heard it here for kids.

57:15

Yeah, I guess so. All

57:17

right. Well, let

57:20

us know. What does otter mean to you

57:22

in your heart? Do you like it? What

57:25

does your heart otter song sing? Is

57:27

it? What

57:29

kind of noise otters make? Is

57:31

it like a woodchuck? Oh,

57:35

I don't know. Okay. Anyway. All

57:38

right. Well, let's look. You want to take a break

57:40

then? Yeah. Yeah.

57:42

Let's take a break. This is the

57:44

part where Mike and Kyle take a look. So

57:51

are we back? We're back. We're

57:55

going to do our gayest and straightest. We're going

57:57

to do our gayest and straightest. But first, our.

58:00

website is gayishpodcast.com. We are on

58:02

socials at Gayish Podcasts, or you

58:04

can go find out all of

58:06

our communities like Discord and the

58:08

Facebook group at gayishpodcast.com/contact. Our

58:10

hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails as 5,

58:13

8, 5, 5 Gayish that's 5, 8, 5,

58:15

5, 4, 2, 9, 4, 7, 4 standard rate supply. Our

58:20

email is [email protected]. Our

58:22

physical mailing address is post office box 1 9 8 8 2 Seattle,

58:26

Washington, 98 1 0 9. God,

58:28

I need to go check out. If

58:30

somebody sent us an otter, it's dead. Oh,

58:33

well dead baby. Um,

58:36

Hey everyone. We were recently on

58:38

another podcast. We were on the

58:41

queer voices podcast. So

58:43

if you want to hear more of us go to

58:46

the queer voices podcast and it is as of right

58:48

now, the latest one, uh, the

58:50

latest episode. It's do

58:53

it. Listen. Yeah. Check

58:55

it out. Take a listen. Go download. We

58:58

already talked everybody about pop pop con.

59:01

Yeah, we did great. We can

59:03

say it again. We still, we still are winners.

59:08

We're, we're, we're two first. We're going to

59:10

go for a three feet this year. Yeah.

59:12

All right. Is it time for a guess

59:14

and straightest then? Yeah. Let's do your gayest

59:16

straightest. I'll go. I'll go. I'll go first

59:18

and then I'll fall asleep. Okay. Good call.

59:21

Uh, the straightest thing about me this week is having

59:23

COVID and being at home and just not

59:25

showering, stinking, smelling real bad and eating

59:28

pizza three nights in a row. Ooh.

59:30

Wow. Yeah. I

59:33

did for you. I'm I'm I'm a real

59:35

piece of work tile. Uh,

59:37

and then the gayest thing about me

59:40

this week is doing laundry in preparation

59:42

for boyfriend's return, he went home to

59:44

visit his family and, uh, doing

59:47

a load of towels and oh my God, the

59:49

number of crusty jizz towels that were at the

59:51

bottom of that hamper. Oh no,

59:53

Mike. Gay as hell. You

59:57

can probably sell those on the internet for like 50

59:59

bucks. patreon.com slash

1:00:01

gage. Gage podcast. Yep. Well,

1:00:06

my straightest is instead

1:00:10

of doing my hair this weekend, I was

1:00:12

with friends at a cabin this weekend. I also

1:00:14

did not shower at all. So right there with

1:00:16

you there. I

1:00:19

did not do my hair even once. And when I had

1:00:21

to go out in public, I just put on a backwards

1:00:23

hat. Yeah. You

1:00:25

were your own sex symbol. Yeah.

1:00:30

Um, and my gayest is

1:00:32

when I had control of the music, uh,

1:00:35

putting on my Britney playlist. Nice.

1:00:38

What everybody think. Everyone

1:00:40

was jamming out to all the songs. So I think they

1:00:42

were into it. Every single cut, I'm sure.

1:00:45

Every single one. You don't play any weird

1:00:47

obscure Britney songs that nobody knows ever. This

1:00:50

was the popular ones. Oh, so most people

1:00:52

knew most of them. Okay.

1:00:55

Great. Um,

1:00:57

we have a listener's gayest Australia's this

1:01:00

week. It is in a voicemail. So

1:01:02

just listen. Hey, Mike Callender, this is

1:01:04

Raph from, uh, Philadelphia, uh, calling in

1:01:06

with my gayest straightest week. Uh,

1:01:09

my gayest is realizing that I've been listening to

1:01:11

the back catalog for almost a year and a

1:01:13

half now. And the saddest

1:01:16

part is that I only have seven more episodes to

1:01:18

catch up. So I have a week's worth of listening

1:01:20

to you guys every day. So that's

1:01:22

gonna be a bummer. And then,

1:01:24

uh, my straightest is detailing

1:01:27

my car on Easter Sunday instead

1:01:29

of, uh, preparing for a barbecue that

1:01:31

I had hosting. So gayest

1:01:34

and straightest. Later guys. Love

1:01:36

you. Awesome podcast. Well, thanks for all the hits

1:01:38

to the back catalog. We always appreciate that. Yeah,

1:01:42

that helps our numbers. Keep

1:01:44

listening. Go through them all

1:01:46

again. Yeah. Uh,

1:01:49

that's how we're gonna get that three P. Um, yep. Calling

1:01:53

a car too. That's, you know, yeah. Soup

1:01:55

straight. Can't caring about your car. Butch.

1:01:58

Uh, did we do it? Yeah, thanks

1:02:01

to otters everywhere, even

1:02:03

the necrophiliac ones. And

1:02:06

thank you to our Super Gap

1:02:08

Bridgers. Thank you to Kaylee Adams,

1:02:10

Kit Oliver, Kobe Gordon, Pip, Andrew

1:02:13

Bugby, William Bryant, John Crowley, Joost

1:02:15

Osel, Harry Shaw, Jonathan Montane, Zwadu

1:02:17

Forest, now Patrick Martin, Steve Douglas,

1:02:19

explosive Azania, Michael Covington, just Jamie,

1:02:21

Thomas B., Dusty Sands, A. Coleman,

1:02:24

Chris Catchtorians, and Jerome York. Thank

1:02:26

you for your support. Thank you

1:02:28

for your money. That's

1:02:30

it. This has been Gayish from the Chris

1:02:32

Catchtorian Studios. I'm Mike Johnson. I'm Kyle Gatz.

1:02:34

Until next week, be butchered, be fabulous, be you. See you next

1:02:37

week. See you next time. Bye. Bye.

1:02:40

Bye. Bye. Bye.

1:02:43

Bye. Bye. Bye.

1:02:46

Bye. Bye. Bye.

1:02:49

Bye. Bye. Bye.

1:02:52

Bye. Bye. Bye.

1:02:55

Bye. Bye. Bye.

1:02:58

I had a bite of oatmeal in a bowl and poured

1:03:00

boiling water on it. I did

1:03:02

not open the packet. This

1:03:08

is just how my life is going.