0:30

Everyone has a

0:30

relationship with gender. What's

0:33

your story? Hello, and welcome

0:33

to Gender Stories with your

0:35

host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

0:39

Hello, and

0:39

welcome to another episode of

0:41

gender stories. I know I always

0:41

say I'm excited, but I am I'm

0:45

excited every time listeners and

0:45

today I'm excited because I'm

0:49

bringing you a conversation with

0:49

Deana Ayers, who is a 21 year

0:52

old black non binary organizer.

0:52

They've been in Minneapolis

0:56

about two weeks, but they

0:56

graduated this May with a

0:59

Bachelor of Social Work degree

0:59

from the University of North

1:02

Texas. As a college student,

1:02

they were involved with student

1:05

government, reproductive justice

1:05

organizing, and a push for

1:09

transformative justice and

1:09

police abolition. Like I said,

1:12

they've been in Minneapolis a couple of weeks with their girlfriend, and they're

1:14

interning for an economic

1:17

justice organization, and

1:17

writing articles about prison

1:20

industrial complex abolition,

1:20

political education, and the

1:24

social work profession. You can

1:24

check out their published

1:27

articles in their portfolio and

1:27

I'll put the website in the

1:31

episode description and also

1:31

follow them on Twitter

1:35

@deanaayers and I'll put that in

1:35

the episode description as well.

1:39

So welcome, Deana. I'm so glad

1:39

to have you on the show. Thank

1:43

you so much for responding to my

1:43

tweet of like, who wants to talk

1:47

prison abolition gender and race

1:47

with me? And you're like, I do.

1:50

And I was like great! And so

1:50

tell me a little bit about what

1:55

made you say, Yes, I want to

1:55

talk about that with you, when I

1:59

send that tweet out in on the

1:59

internet.

2:04

Um, actually, I had

2:04

one of the a social worker send

2:07

it to me. So there's an

2:07

organization called Social Work

2:10

Cares, which is like Social Work

2:10

coalition for free anti racist

2:13

education. So they have kind of

2:13

connected to them. And so one of

2:18

the organizers for that send me

2:18

the tweet and was like, oh, like

2:20

you would be a really good fit

2:20

to like talk about this and

2:23

especially like the relationship

2:23

between like social work and

2:26

prison abolition. So I thought I

2:26

was really grateful for that and

2:29

I'm super excited to kind of

2:29

talk to you about some of my

2:32

passions.

2:33

Wonderful. I'm really excited to talk to you about those passions, and what a

2:35

time to be in Minneapolis. I, as

2:40

the listeners know, I'm not

2:40

originally from the states are

2:43

Minneapolis, but I lived here

2:43

for 12 years, and actually live

2:47

right in South Minneapolis. So

2:47

you know, my practices by the

2:51

cars across the street, where

2:51

the Mr. George Floyd was

2:54

brutally murdered and then I

2:54

live not very far from there.

2:58

And it's been a very intense

2:58

time during the uprising in

3:02

Minneapolis and I wonder what

3:02

it's been like to come from

3:05

Texas, into the Twin Cities in

3:05

this particular moment in time

3:10

for you.

3:12

It's definitely

3:12

been an experience just to see

3:15

like the amount of like

3:15

community like actual community

3:19

organizing that happens here.

3:19

And it's kind of like the

3:23

uprisings and like the

3:23

organizing and the like very

3:26

principled demands, like in

3:26

Texas, like that's what we were

3:30

looking at, because it's like,

3:30

we've had multiple people buy

3:34

from John, our town, Jefferson,

3:34

like, all these people in Texas,

3:39

like there's a lot of police

3:39

brutality here. And yet, we

3:42

don't have I don't think like

3:42

the organizing structure and

3:45

like as many people who are

3:45

like, trained to like do, like

3:49

police abolition work and

3:49

respond. So it was really, it

3:53

made me like mentally sad, and

3:53

like, I had a lot of feelings

3:58

about it. But their reaction of

3:58

like people taking action and

4:02

actually getting what they need

4:02

in their communities as a result

4:05

has been like really powerful

4:05

coming from Texas, where we

4:08

don't really see a lot of like,

4:08

wins like this.

4:13

Absolutely. And

4:13

that's the thing, right that the

4:15

murder of Mr. George Floyd was a

4:15

tipping point, you know, the,

4:19

this waves, unfortunately, of

4:19

systemic violence against black

4:23

and brown body and especially

4:23

against black bodies. Is is a

4:27

national pandemic, really it is

4:27

a it is a public health crisis

4:31

here in the US and many people

4:31

locally have said, it's really

4:35

hard to talk about what's

4:35

happening in Minneapolis outside

4:39

with people who are outside of

4:39

this place, right? And I wonder

4:43

what it has been like for you to

4:43

come in, come in as an outsider

4:48

into this moment of organizing

4:48

and how easy it was for you to

4:51

plug in and to get connected

4:51

because like you said, there's a

4:54

lot of already existing

4:54

organizations and organizing

4:58

that was happening and how did

4:58

you manage to connect on the

5:01

ground? Because I know a lot of

5:01

people have also said, it's been

5:04

really hard to figure out how to

5:04

plug in. And so I wonder, are

5:06

you plugged in, in the to this

5:06

moment?

5:08

So I'm just trying

5:08

to like figure out where I fit

5:12

into everything both like trying

5:12

to use what I know, in my

5:16

experience to help as well as

5:16

being humble and recognizing,

5:20

you know, it might seem a little

5:20

sketchy to people that I just

5:23

pulled up from a different state

5:23

two weeks ago. And now like, oh,

5:25

yeah, I also hate the police.

5:25

Like, I definitely know, like,

5:28

understand how it looks. I will

5:28

say that organizing in

5:32

Minneapolis seems a little

5:32

insular. And that, like, it's

5:35

hard to even find the like, get

5:35

involved or like Join button on

5:39

a website. And so I'm still

5:39

trying to, like figure out where

5:43

my places and like, who I can

5:43

get connected to. And it's also

5:47

like, I think a lot of works

5:47

everywhere, not just Minneapolis

5:51

struggle with, there's something

5:51

that happens like something that

5:55

starts to fire, like a bunch of

5:55

people want to be involved and

5:57

so you both have to try to do

5:57

the work of whatever has like

6:02

inspired a push for change, and

6:02

like capitalize that and like

6:06

change the world into a better

6:06

place. While also like plugging

6:09

people into these movements and

6:09

I think people don't realize

6:13

that that can be really hard.

6:13

And so like, I definitely

6:16

recognize it, like, you know, if

6:16

it takes a couple of like days

6:19

or a week or so to get back to

6:19

me for an email, like, I

6:22

understand that, because where

6:22

I'm like, I might see it as

6:25

like, oh, well, you know, they should be lucky that I want to be involved and that's, like,

6:26

that's not really the case.

6:30

Because they have to train me

6:30

they have to, like educate me on

6:33

like, what they're actually

6:33

doing and make sure that like

6:35

I'm a good fit or that I'm not

6:35

like the feds. And so there's a

6:39

lot, I think behind the scenes,

6:39

that can make it a little harder

6:43

to get involved in organizing.

6:43

And so that's been frustrating

6:45

for me, but because I like have

6:45

been in their shoes, and I

6:48

understand it. I'm trying to be

6:48

patient and understanding and

6:52

just like, you know, I'm in

6:52

somebody else's, like hometown

6:56

and not be really full of myself

6:56

and just like understand if it

7:00

takes time it takes time.

7:02

Absolutely. And I

7:02

love the way you're I feel like

7:05

what you're really speaking to

7:05

is their relationship building.

7:07

Right. And the relationship

7:07

building is a really good area

7:12

maybe to move on for a moment,

7:12

because a lot of white folks are

7:17

waking up to this idea of prison

7:17

abolition, right. And I say

7:19

specifically white folks,

7:19

because, you know, I really feel

7:22

like the black and brown folks

7:22

have been working for this for a

7:25

long time. That city of

7:25

Minneapolis council vote, you

7:29

know, to define the police

7:29

didn't come out of nowhere,

7:31

they've been organizers,

7:31

especially black femmes, you

7:35

know, working for this for a

7:35

long time. I don't think it's an

7:37

accident that we have two

7:37

amazing out kind of black trans

7:41

city councilors on our council,

7:41

there's just been so much

7:44

organizing, and so much work.

7:44

And and, you know, now we see,

7:49

you know, not that some white

7:49

folks have been part of this

7:52

work too but on a much bigger

7:52

scale, we're seeing white people

7:55

waking up to this idea of prison

7:55

abolition. And then really

7:59

missing this relationship piece,

7:59

right, really missing how

8:02

community organizing needs to be

8:02

rooted in relationship and

8:07

something a lot of people even

8:07

struggle with this idea of how

8:11

do I build relationship with my

8:11

neighbors? How do I plug into

8:15

this, this idea of reimagining

8:15

community safety? Right. And,

8:20

and I feel like that

8:20

relationship building is a

8:23

fundamental, I don't know, it's

8:23

foundational, I would say to

8:28

this prison abolition where it

8:28

can I don't know if you feel

8:31

similarly but I was curious

8:31

about what you think

8:33

relationship has to do with

8:33

prison abolition? Yeah.

8:36

I think relationships are kind of like the building block of like, the

8:38

idea of us having like safe and

8:41

healthy communities that don't

8:41

have policing or like, have any

8:46

form of like surveillance and

8:46

like state induced harm. And I

8:50

think especially in like the

8:50

like white supremacist

8:53

capitalist society that we're

8:53

in, where we are like, okay, you

8:57

know, I go from my house, to a

8:57

job, back to my friends, I don't

9:01

interact with the people who

9:01

live around me, I don't like,

9:04

there's like, there's whole

9:04

books. I think there's one

9:07

called Bowling Alone that I

9:07

read, and it talks about like

9:10

the decline and like people

9:10

being involved in like,

9:12

community organization is just

9:12

like bowling clubs, let alone

9:16

organizing for like, radical

9:16

social change. And so I think a

9:20

lot of like, it is a majority

9:20

white people, but there are also

9:25

like other people who have

9:25

people of other races, who just

9:28

like, it isn't really clicking

9:28

about just like the basics of,

9:33

you know, like, prison abolition

9:33

is your relationship with like,

9:37

one other person and then like,

9:37

spiraling out from there. And so

9:41

you can see it kind of I've seen

9:41

it on Twitter, where white

9:44

people are just, like, explain

9:44

prison abolition to me, like,

9:46

just explain it to me, and it's

9:46

like, these are people's like,

9:49

these are our personal stories.

9:49

These are our whole like lives

9:53

that created us into like prison

9:53

abolitionists and to just be

9:56

like, Okay, give me a reading

9:56

list. Like it's not about just

10:00

you know, reading the material

10:00

and like understanding the

10:02

theory, it's like, okay, but how

10:02

are you like practicing what

10:06

you've learned and like

10:06

practicing healthy relationships

10:09

and knowing how to apologize and

10:09

like, understanding that you

10:12

harm people and other people

10:12

harm you. And I just think that

10:17

that's like really missing,

10:17

especially for like, white

10:20

people who don't like white

10:20

Americans who don't have like a

10:23

lot of like community ties, or

10:23

any culture that like, relates

10:26

to like, larger families or

10:26

like, any kind of like,

10:30

community socialization, they're

10:30

just like, continuously, like,

10:34

not understanding the building

10:34

blocks of like, how to talk to

10:39

another person. And then it's

10:39

like, okay, if you can't even

10:41

like, ask me for resources in a

10:41

way that humanizes me, how are

10:45

we going to like, transform

10:45

society together, like, you have

10:49

to work on like, being able to

10:49

talk to other people before we

10:52

can even get to that point.

10:54

Absolutely. I

10:54

often talk about how, you know,

10:58

whiteness is so built on anti

10:58

blackness and for me, it feels

11:03

like this disease, right, white

11:03

supremacy and part of this

11:06

diseases like the lack of

11:06

relationship. I was really

11:09

struck, you know, when I first

11:09

moved to the UK, I was 22. And

11:12

then 15 years later, I moved

11:12

here to the US, one of the

11:16

things that I keep noticing,

11:16

again and again, is this, you

11:19

know, people who have been

11:19

assimilated into whiteness, have

11:24

really lost this capacity for

11:24

relationship have really lost

11:28

the capacity for connection, you

11:28

know, and that is such a deep

11:32

one. And maybe it's because I'm

11:32

a family therapist, and I'm

11:35

relating to systems and

11:35

relational system. But that's

11:39

really, you know, like you said,

11:39

it's such a building block of

11:43

prison abolition. And I

11:43

definitely don't want to go into

11:45

definitions or reading less than

11:45

if listeners if you're

11:48

interested in finding out more

11:48

MPD150.org has got it all

11:53

reports specifically about

11:53

Minneapolis Police, you know,

11:57

because this is where I am. And

11:57

this is where this uprising that

12:00

rippled across the country kind

12:00

of started. And it's even on

12:04

Spotify as an audio. So go

12:04

listen to the MPD150 report.

12:08

There's also some other

12:08

wonderful resources on their

12:11

website. For our conversations,

12:11

I really want to go back to this

12:15

idea of relationship, but also

12:15

how when we're in relationship

12:22

that is so different than

12:22

policing right? Not just kind of

12:27

police in the official police.

12:27

But I just want to go into this

12:31

idea of like, policing each

12:31

other's bodies, policing who

12:34

belongs in which space, based on

12:34

our bodies are being read, you

12:39

know, how we're gendered how

12:39

we're racialized. You know, this

12:42

happens all the time. You know,

12:42

we walk around our neighborhood,

12:46

and we look at people and we're

12:46

making judgments about who

12:49

belongs and what doesn't belong,

12:49

right? All the time, and

12:52

especially when the relationship

12:52

is missing. What does policing

12:56

means in that context? Sorry, I

12:56

went on a long ramble. It was

12:59

about a week. I don't know if

12:59

I'm making sense, but...

13:01

You know, I think

13:01

we talked about kind of like the

13:06

whiteness of like, not having

13:06

like not knowing how to build

13:09

those relationships. But there's

13:09

also like, the says hetero

13:12

patriarchal part of our society,

13:12

where it's like...

13:15

Yes.

13:16

It's normal to

13:16

police people's gender, and to

13:19

make a personal decision about

13:19

whether you'll respect to those

13:22

pronouns or whether or not like,

13:22

I'm deciding that non binary is

13:27

or isn't a thing. Like, it's

13:27

normalized to us to, like,

13:31

punish people for being

13:31

different to both stick our

13:35

noses in others people's

13:35

business and make judgment

13:37

calls, but also not build

13:37

relationships with those people

13:41

and just to kind of like, watch

13:41

others and like, survey them and

13:46

see like, if something is wrong

13:46

with them. And so I think,

13:49

especially for like, the

13:49

relationship between like gender

13:53

and prison abolition, like

13:53

there's just so many different

13:56

parts of our society that are

13:56

just like, specifically for

13:59

punishing people who are not

13:59

like cis men. So like, if you

14:04

try to defend yourself against

14:04

an abuser, and you are not cis

14:07

man, like, you know, if you're

14:07

defending yourself, like, you're

14:10

probably going to jail, and then

14:10

you're going to, and like,

14:13

you're going to be going to if

14:13

you're, if they perceive you or

14:17

decide that you fit into their

14:17

category of the state, as a

14:20

woman, they're going to send you

14:20

to a woman's prison where like,

14:23

the conditions are terrible, and

14:23

like there's a bunch of other

14:27

people who are victims of abuse,

14:27

so been hurt by other people.

14:31

But the state said, you fit into

14:31

this box of like, what harm is

14:35

unacceptable, like what counts

14:35

is a crime. And so it doesn't

14:39

really like help anyone or fix

14:39

anything. And then when you go

14:43

further into it in instances of

14:43

like, well, who is being

14:47

criminalized by the state, you

14:47

know, who is whose business is

14:50

being policed? And it's like,

14:50

sex workers, like, just

14:54

automatically like you're a bad

14:54

person, you're criminalized,

14:57

like people seeing what you do

14:57

on a daily basis. As your

15:00

existing is policed, like,

15:00

there's just so many ways, even

15:05

taking out like the prison

15:05

aspect of it. I think it was a

15:08

couple years back, they were a

15:08

bunch of men who were like

15:11

doxing sex workers and like

15:11

putting all of their information

15:16

and sending that information to

15:16

the IRS, because they didn't

15:18

like that they weren't paying

15:18

taxes. And it's like, one that's

15:22

none of your business. Two it's

15:22

not hurting anyone what they're

15:27

doing, and it's not helping you

15:27

to report, you've just decided

15:31

like it vigilante justice,

15:31

justice is like the way for you

15:36

to get to tell people like this

15:36

is what's okay in society and

15:40

this is what's not. Like,

15:40

there's just so many instances

15:44

of that of just society saying,

15:44

you know, here's what's okay,

15:50

here's what's not, it's in the

15:50

hands of like the most

15:52

privileged, and the people who

15:52

benefit from the systems of

15:55

oppression, to just like, step

15:55

on other people and say, like,

16:00

'Okay, like, Oh, if the state's

16:00

not going to police, you, if the

16:02

state's not going to punish you

16:02

for existing in a way that is

16:05

not the same as me, then I'll do

16:05

it on an interpersonal level,

16:10

like, I will continue all of

16:10

these systems of oppression,

16:14

just interpersonally, one to

16:14

one, because I can and because

16:17

society has said that's what I'm

16:17

supposed to be doing'.

16:21

Absolutely, and

16:21

in a lot of ways, the police, we

16:25

could also talk about the

16:25

military, but I feel like that's

16:27

a whole other conversation. But

16:27

you know, the police industrial

16:30

complex is really like, almost

16:30

like the apex of that policing,

16:34

right? Or we can do all the

16:34

policing interpersonally and

16:38

actually, policing is really

16:38

about control, right?

16:43

Controlling bodies, controlling

16:43

borders, and the roots of the

16:46

police were very much around

16:46

controlling property that was

16:49

stolen, you know, from

16:49

indigenous people, controlling

16:52

bodies in terms of, you know,

16:52

slaves running away from

16:57

plantation, those are the roots

16:57

of the police in the United

17:00

States, as I understand them. So

17:00

the police was never meant to

17:03

protect communities as we think

17:03

about communities right now. But

17:08

it was really meant to protect

17:08

the interests of like settler

17:11

colonial cis hetero white

17:11

patriarchy, really, that's who

17:17

the police has been kind of.

17:17

That's what they were born to

17:20

protect, in some ways and

17:20

because lots of people talk

17:23

about, you know, why can't we

17:23

just reform the police? And I

17:26

think it's important to talk

17:26

about the roots, because that's

17:29

one of the reasons why so many

17:29

folks, and you know, and black

17:32

folks really say we can't reform

17:32

the police, we need to abolish

17:36

and I don't know if you want to

17:36

say a little bit more about that

17:38

but I know that's something that

17:38

people really go to a lot. Well,

17:41

can we just reform and defund

17:41

and abolish? Like such a strong

17:46

word, you know? And I mean, of

17:46

course, usually that's white

17:49

There's been a lot

17:49

of, I'll start off with, like,

17:49

folks. there's been a lot of people who

17:53

are saying defund, and they're

18:00

not saying it in an abolitionist

18:00

way. They're saying like, 'Okay,

18:03

cut, like half of their budget,

18:03

and then do a bunch of trainings

18:07

and community policing and all

18:07

of these things'. It's like, no,

18:10

like, we're asking, like, we're

18:10

not asking, we're demanding that

18:13

the budget keeps on being cut

18:13

that these people stopped being

18:16

hired or being fired. Like,

18:16

we're trying to get to like zero

18:20

state police, like as it really

18:20

is an entity, no police and then

18:25

go from there. Like, that's the

18:25

energy that we have and I think

18:29

a lot of people who are calling

18:29

for reforms don't realize that

18:34

they're saying, like, this

18:34

system can be safe. They're

18:37

saying, like, oh, we can just

18:37

like reimagine the police. And

18:42

it's like, at the end of the

18:42

day, like police are always

18:44

going to protect the state,

18:44

police are going to protect

18:48

property. And like, that's not

18:48

really the you can't get away

18:52

from the roots of that, as well

18:52

as these reforms that people are

18:56

calling for are usually so

18:56

ineffective. It's like, oh, do

19:00

paperwork before you shoot

19:00

someone and it's like, we've

19:03

literally time and time again

19:03

seen police officers, break the

19:08

rules, break the laws, and have

19:08

no punishment. So why are we

19:11

still asking pretty please don't

19:11

break these new rules, like

19:14

they're gonna do it just because

19:14

they can because there are no

19:18

consequences like between the

19:18

other like people on the police

19:21

force, the courts and like the

19:21

public opinion of the most

19:25

powerful people in the country,

19:25

like, there's no incentive to,

19:30

like taking these reforms

19:30

seriously. And even if they

19:33

claim to like the states who are

19:33

saying like, Oh, listen, they're

19:36

the department. Oh, we check off

19:36

all of the policies, and it's

19:41

like, okay, but like you still

19:41

have so much like, police

19:45

brutality and killing of people.

19:45

And it's like, that's, it's

19:50

obviously not like, reducing

19:50

harm. It's just putting more

19:54

paperwork and more, you know,

19:54

like, oh, well, we have a rule

19:58

that says so you must have

19:58

listened to it on top of the

20:01

lack of accountability, it's

20:01

like okay, like, Yeah, we're

20:05

gonna believe that they did the

20:05

paperwork. We're gonna believe

20:07

what the police say because

20:07

that's like, there's no

20:11

accountability. There's no

20:11

incentive for them to, like,

20:15

tell the truth or like be honest

20:15

about the people that they hurt

20:17

and harm, like, these reforms

20:17

are asking for something that

20:23

can't happen. They're asking for

20:23

like, a more abolition, they're

20:27

asking for, like, abolitionist

20:27

policing, which doesn't make

20:30

sense. Like you're not going to

20:30

get policing that cares about

20:34

like, harm and like centering

20:34

survivors, and cares right, like

20:39

transformative justice. Like,

20:39

that's not how that works like

20:42

police departments and prisons

20:42

have been like, oh, yeah, like

20:45

we're doing restorative justice

20:45

practices now, but it's like,

20:48

there's still carcerality of

20:48

people being arrested and people

20:51

being incarcerated and like,

20:51

being dehumanized, separated

20:54

from their families, like

20:54

abused. And so we're asking

20:59

these people who are

20:59

continuously like, murdering and

21:02

abusing oppressed people, will

21:02

you pretty pleased, act nice

21:07

just this once, otherwise, what?

21:07

Like, what power do we have,

21:14

besides getting rid of them

21:14

completely, like, we have no

21:17

control over this like entity of

21:17

violence. So it's like, if we

21:20

have the momentum and the drive

21:20

to do something, we should just

21:24

get rid of it altogether. And

21:24

like reimagine how our society

21:28

looks rather than this urge to

21:28

stick with the status quo and

21:33

stay with what we've known our

21:33

entire lives and has also been

21:36

ineffective our entire lives.

21:39

Absolutely. And I

21:39

think it's it's no accident,

21:42

right? That the police also has

21:42

a very kind of patriarchal,

21:47

sexist kind of structure by the

21:47

police is just so deeply rooted

21:51

in this idea of kind of who gets

21:51

to be who gets to be watched, as

21:57

you said, and surveyed, you

21:57

know, and who gets to be

22:00

monitored. And yeah this idea

22:00

that, you know, often people are

22:05

like, wow, you're always had

22:05

both hand and nondepolarizing

22:08

person, you know, when I'm

22:08

having conversation with folks

22:10

on my, yes, this is actually one

22:10

of those cases where it cannot

22:14

be both hand. Because when it

22:14

comes to people's humanity,

22:18

because basically like the

22:18

police is the way that it's

22:22

rooted the way that it's been

22:22

built in the way it's

22:25

manifested. It's just inherently

22:25

does not recognize the humanity

22:30

of the large parts of the

22:30

population. And sure, there are

22:32

kind of women police officers,

22:32

and I'm sure there's probably

22:36

trans identify police officers,

22:36

I don't know I've never come

22:38

across them. But the culture is

22:38

predominantly white supremacist,

22:43

predominantly patriarchal,

22:43

predominantly queer phobic, and

22:47

all of those things don't happen

22:47

by by accident. And in all of

22:51

those things, don't don't lead

22:51

to justice. You talked about

22:54

justice. And what does justice

22:54

mean? Right? What is it that

22:59

people mean when they say

22:59

justice, and that idea that even

23:02

when folks like this man were

23:02

doxing sex workers lay when they

23:06

feel like, wow, the state is not

23:06

doing their job. So we will do

23:10

this job of policing sex workers

23:10

income, right? We will do this,

23:15

we will bring justice in our

23:15

mind to an unjust situation.

23:21

It's always fascinating to me to

23:21

who feels wronged by the current

23:28

system and I don't know, am I

23:28

making sense, but just...

23:33

Yeah definitely.

23:33

Justice is such an interesting

23:37

topic to talk about when we like

23:37

in like, abolitionist

23:41

conversations, because a lot of

23:41

us, like, don't really

23:45

experience like any kind of

23:45

like, justice, when we see the

23:49

harm or wrongs done here, like,

23:49

the way that we framed justice

23:54

in the United States is, someone

23:54

hurt you. So you tell the

23:58

police, the police arrest them,

23:58

and then they go to jail, pay a

24:01

bunch of money or like stuck in

24:01

jail, if they can't pay that

24:04

money, go through a court system

24:04

that's like stacked against

24:07

them, and then if they're found

24:07

guilty of that harm, are

24:10

inprisoned. And it's like, okay,

24:10

but I'm hurt, like, someone hurt

24:15

me. Whereas, you know, where's

24:15

the process for me not feeling

24:19

hurt, or like repairing that

24:19

harm? And it's just not there,

24:23

because it's not about you were

24:23

hurt. It's about the state said,

24:27

you're not allowed to hurt

24:27

people, and you broke the

24:29

state's rule. And so now you're

24:29

going through this entire, like,

24:32

carceral punishment process

24:32

that's supposed to deter more

24:36

people, but really just like

24:36

dehumanizes and abuses mostly

24:40

like black people. And so a big

24:40

thing I've been thinking about

24:44

about like, what does justice

24:44

look like is for the police

24:48

officers who are murdering

24:48

people. So like, there have been

24:51

a lot of calls to action and

24:51

petitions around Breanna Taylor

24:55

specific center like arrest of

24:55

the officers that murdered

24:59

Breanna Taylor. And I'm like,

24:59

no, like, if we're saying to

25:04

arrest them, like, that's not

25:04

getting justice for her, because

25:06

it's saying like, Oh, yeah, the

25:06

system that ultimately, like

25:09

murdered you that like took this

25:09

person off of the face of the

25:13

earth, we're gonna double down

25:13

on that and say, oh, yeah, we

25:16

can find good in that we can

25:16

believe that that is a good

25:20

determinate of like who's good

25:20

and who's bad. It just like

25:25

reaffirming a system that if

25:25

we're saying that, like, these

25:28

things are happening, and

25:28

they're wrong, the prison

25:30

industrial complex is like, an

25:30

inherently like, bad and vile

25:34

system, and then saying, Okay,

25:34

we want to put more people into

25:38

that system, it just kind of

25:38

ignores like, all of the ripples

25:42

of that, like good people who

25:42

are going to be incarcerated

25:45

with that person who are going

25:45

to be treated worse, you know,

25:49

like a cop in prison, like,

25:49

they're gonna be protected by

25:52

correction officers are going to

25:52

be, you know, treated better.

25:55

And the people who are

25:55

surrounding them, like these,

25:57

like black and brown people are

25:57

gonna be treated worse, and are

26:01

gonna, like be hurt. And like,

26:01

you know, they're like, oh, that

26:04

person looking at me that they

26:04

can get, like the crap beat out

26:07

of them just because there's a

26:07

white cop who's being treated

26:10

like royalty in this prison. And

26:10

so if like, is that justice to

26:13

us, like hurting other people

26:13

who are incarcerated, because

26:16

we're doubling down in the

26:16

system? I also thinking about

26:22

that, that this idea of like

26:22

justice and prison abolition is

26:25

can we get justice for someone

26:25

who we've lost? And that's

26:30

really hard, especially when we

26:30

see a lot of like trans people

26:34

were killed by the police, or

26:34

like people in their lives, and

26:37

it's like, get justice for this

26:37

person. It's like, I don't know

26:41

that we can't get justice for

26:41

them. Like, we've already failed

26:44

this person. Like, we've allowed

26:44

a society to foster that, like,

26:48

perpetuates transphobia, and

26:48

sexism, and misogyny, that

26:53

results in all of these people

26:53

dying. And it's like, to me, the

26:58

only thing that comes close to

26:58

like justice is making sure that

27:01

it doesn't happen to more people

27:01

and creating a society that is

27:05

free of transphobia. That is,

27:05

like safe for like most

27:07

oppressed people in our society.

27:07

As you know, we should, we

27:12

should make sure that the people

27:12

who are perpetuating harm,

27:16

especially these police officers

27:16

are going through transformative

27:19

justice processes, you know,

27:19

losing their jobs, not being

27:22

allowed to join another police

27:22

force, like paying some form of

27:25

restitution. Like speaking

27:25

honestly, about what kind of

27:30

harms they perpetuated, and

27:30

like, what was allowed to be

27:33

swept under the rug. But to me,

27:33

just like giving, like an eye

27:40

for an eye isn't justice here.

27:40

Like we're not getting any

27:43

closer to a more liberated

27:43

world, or just saying, okay, as

27:47

long as we're in this world,

27:47

we're just gonna keep on using

27:49

the systems that we have and

27:49

it's like, the end of the day

27:51

with the systems that we have,

27:51

even if we're using them to get

27:54

like, a little bit of like, what

27:54

we perceive as justice, which is

27:58

more likely, like, vengeance is

27:58

like, okay, it might make you

28:01

feel better now, but like, look

28:01

at all the people in your

28:04

community are going to be

28:04

negatively impacted by the way

28:08

that you reacted to this. And

28:08

like, I don't think that you're

28:13

a bad person, if you're asking

28:13

for Breanna Taylor's murderers

28:17

to be arrested. But I do think

28:17

that it requires really sitting

28:21

with what you are calling for

28:21

and and the systems that you're

28:23

choosing to uphold and digging.

28:23

For me, it's been like digging

28:27

really deep to figure out for

28:27

the community surrounding her

28:31

and surrounding like all of

28:31

these murders by police, like,

28:36

what can we do to make sure that

28:36

there is accountability for the

28:42

people who perpetuate this harm,

28:42

but also that we're not, in turn

28:46

perpetuating systems that we've

28:46

said are rotten to the core.

28:50

And that's one of

28:50

the trickiest thing, right? And

28:53

I really found that heartbreak

28:53

when you're like, we've already

28:56

failed this people, you know,

28:56

all the black and brown and

29:00

trans bodies are, like, impacted

29:00

by violence, and especially

29:04

police brutality, you know, the

29:04

murder of black trans women that

29:08

continue to sweep the country

29:08

and you know, black trans folks,

29:11

especially, and, and I love what

29:11

you said about, you know,

29:15

vengeance and liberation. And I

29:15

think that's so important,

29:18

right? What is justice? Is

29:18

justice, vengeance, which is

29:22

understandable, right? We're

29:22

human. It's like if somebody

29:24

hurts, you know, somebody is

29:24

like your family and your

29:28

community. It's very human to

29:28

feel the desire for vengeance.

29:32

It's very human, to feel like

29:32

this desire for even a life for

29:37

a life, right, that brings to

29:37

the death penalty and things

29:40

like that. And that is vengeance

29:40

that is life for a life and I

29:46

for an I and, and this idea of

29:46

prison abolition is really

29:49

ultimately about liberation, and

29:49

relationships that I don't even

29:54

know some folks can even imagine

29:54

living in a community where

29:57

there is a degree of

29:57

relationship and deep

30:01

accountability that can bring on

30:01

that. That liberated justice,

30:06

let's call it for one of a

30:06

better word rather than that

30:08

vengeful justice. I think most

30:08

people tend to associate with

30:12

the word justice.

30:14

And it's to me,

30:14

it's thinking about, like, you

30:17

know, like, people have hurt me

30:17

interpersonally. And it's like,

30:20

you know, I was like, Oh, well,

30:20

I wish that they would, you

30:24

know, feel how I felt. And it's

30:24

like, no, like, I wish that I

30:27

didn't feel bad. Like, I wish

30:27

that this person hadn't, like,

30:29

hurt me or turned their back on

30:29

me or made me feel all of these

30:33

ways that I felt like, it's

30:33

like, society has said, the only

30:38

way that you can perceive

30:38

justice is another person being

30:41

hurt. And it's like, well, why

30:41

can't we turn it around and say,

30:43

like, I want this person, like,

30:43

instead of, like, wanting

30:48

another person to be hurt it

30:48

feel hard to be honest. And say,

30:52

like, I want this person to

30:52

like, understand what they did

30:56

that hurt me to explain why they

30:56

did this thing that hurt me, so

31:00

I can try to understand my side

31:00

of it. And to also like, do

31:04

things to write that, like, hurt

31:04

really tried to repair that

31:08

harm, whether with me or without

31:08

me, and also not perpetuate it

31:11

again. But that kind of thing is

31:11

so unheard of, like, I've never

31:17

experienced that kind of like

31:17

that transformative justice

31:20

process where like, all of those

31:20

steps happen, as well as like,

31:23

getting to the root of what

31:23

caused it and understanding

31:27

that, like, that's never

31:27

happened for me. And so, it's

31:30

easy to just go, Well, I felt

31:30

this way. So you should feel

31:33

this way because, you know, when

31:33

have we ever seen these

31:36

processes, like, happen, you

31:36

know, like, it feels impossible,

31:41

but it's like, once we start,

31:41

you know, doing our homework,

31:44

doing our research, like

31:44

understanding that other people

31:47

have made this work, I feel like

31:47

the next time that like,

31:51

somebody really hurts me in and

31:51

organizing work, I'll be more

31:55

able to ask for a transformative

31:55

justice process. And I feel like

31:59

that's, it's a result of

31:59

grappling with really difficult

32:03

ideas and I don't think anybody

32:03

is saying, like, abolition is

32:08

like, really easy. But I do

32:08

think that we're saying, like,

32:12

when you look at the facts of

32:12

the matter, when you look at

32:15

history, when you look at all

32:15

these different components, and

32:18

you think of like the end

32:18

result, you know, we don't want

32:23

to live in a carceral society,

32:23

we want transformative justice,

32:27

and we want like abolition of

32:27

all forms, and like prisons and

32:30

policing. And for that to

32:30

happen, we're all going to do a

32:33

lot of really hard work like

32:33

interpersonally and in our

32:37

communities and I feel like

32:37

that's really hard to say, it's

32:42

like, yeah, the path to

32:42

liberation is a whole bunch of

32:45

work and learning how to

32:45

apologize. And it's like, it is,

32:50

and I think it's, it can be a

32:50

hard sell versus, you know, a

32:54

very easy just arrest the people

32:54

who do harm. Right? There's work

33:00

to be done in terms of just

33:00

thinking through the ideas.

33:03

Absolutely, there

33:03

is so much work to be done. And

33:06

I think that's why, you know, I

33:06

think that prison abolition is,

33:12

it is what we need, if were to

33:12

break away from the cycle of

33:15

violence that the whole country

33:15

was based on, right? It's like,

33:18

it's really saying we would no

33:18

longer want to do this. And you

33:22

know, and I think that black

33:22

communities have been doing this

33:25

work for a long time, and a lot

33:25

of white folks are waking up to

33:28

this work. And, and it is not an

33:28

easy sell, like you said, you

33:31

know, but I feel like that about

33:31

trauma healing, right, as a

33:34

trauma therapist, and as

33:34

somebody who's a survivor,

33:37

myself, I know that the path of

33:37

healing hasn't been easy the

33:39

path will be healing is also

33:39

knowing my own agency, you know,

33:43

in my own power that was taken

33:43

away, right, and recognizing

33:46

that and, and being in

33:46

relationship with myself and

33:49

other people. And, and what,

33:49

what I'm really interested in

33:54

talking about is all these

33:54

different layers, right? prison

33:57

abolition happens on a community

33:57

organizing level, on a political

34:01

level, on this macro level, but

34:01

also happens, or like really

34:06

local community levels, street

34:06

by street organizing neighbor to

34:10

neighbor, and then our own inner

34:10

work right? Our own, I would

34:14

almost dare say spiritual work

34:14

around what we truly believe

34:18

about humanity and what we truly

34:18

believe about liberation and

34:23

what we truly believe about

34:23

justice. And there are so many

34:27

layers to this work, and it is

34:27

so nuanced in a lot of ways.

34:32

Yeah, and I've just and you

34:32

know, you've done that work a

34:35

lot, obviously. And that just I

34:35

don't know if you have anything

34:39

that you want to share with the

34:39

listeners who are interested in

34:41

doing this work. How can they be

34:41

present in all these different

34:45

levels or maybe even where it's

34:45

a good place to start for folks

34:48

who are newer to this work?

34:50

I think it's always

34:50

best to start where you are and

34:56

I feel like that's hard in

34:56

organizing because it's like,

34:59

oh, I want to do all this like

34:59

big world changing stuff. So I

35:02

need to go like join an org and

35:02

like all of these things. And

35:05

it's like, yes, you do need to

35:05

have like, a political home base

35:08

or like you, there's

35:08

accountability and like a shared

35:12

like goal and vision for the

35:12

world and where you're like

35:15

doing your work. And so I think

35:15

joining an organization, or at

35:18

least some organized kind of

35:18

political home is really

35:22

important. But I think for

35:22

myself, it's been really equally

35:28

important to be practicing that

35:28

kind of stuff in your own day to

35:33

day life. So for me, I was doing

35:33

last year, I guess, this spring

35:39

before everything kind of hit

35:39

the fan with COVID-19 did a

35:44

presentation on my campus about

35:44

community alternatives to call

35:46

the police. And it was really,

35:46

you know, I did the research for

35:50

it, I looked in all of these

35:50

things, I vetted it all my

35:53

sources. And then one of the

35:53

first things in my presentation

35:56

was you need to talk to your

35:56

neighbors. And I was like, okay,

35:59

and I was living in like a

35:59

little duplex at the time where

36:02

me and two roommates were

36:02

upstairs, and they were two

36:05

girls living downstairs. And I

36:05

was like, I've been living here

36:07

for three months, I've never

36:07

talked to the people living

36:09

downstairs. And it's kind of

36:09

like, it's really easy. Like,

36:14

technically, even though it's

36:14

really complicated to get to,

36:17

like, understand these, like

36:17

political, like prison abolition

36:21

as a theory in relation to your

36:21

life. And like, get to that

36:25

point where you like, understand

36:25

it and like are like, I'm an

36:27

abolitionist, like, the point

36:27

where it really matters is like

36:31

your actual, like, life and

36:31

interactions with others. So for

36:35

me, it was like living up to

36:35

like those values of like, oh,

36:38

like prison abolition was

36:38

important and like community is

36:40

really important. And that's

36:40

like, Okay, talk to your

36:43

neighbor. So made me really

36:43

anxious but I went down there

36:46

and I was like, hey, like, my

36:46

name is Deana, here's your phone

36:48

number. If anything's ever

36:48

wrong, we need anything like,

36:50

call me. And then I was honest,

36:50

and I was like, and then like,

36:54

instead of calling the police, please call me I don't want police in the apartment. And for

36:56

me, and one of my close friends

37:02

who was living with at the time

37:02

that I was organizing with, that

37:05

was really important of like,

37:05

you know, I'm not going to tell

37:07

people go talk to your neighbors

37:07

when I haven't done it. And so I

37:11

think, of course, like find your

37:11

political home and do your

37:15

organizing work there and get

37:15

plugged into the work that's

37:18

happening. And of course, like,

37:18

read about these ideas, really

37:22

sit with them, and grapple with

37:22

them. But also, like, this idea

37:26

of being an abolitionist, is

37:26

part of personal life as well.

37:30

So like interpersonally, like,

37:30

do you know your neighbors, and

37:33

if you don't, like figure out a

37:33

process of like, how you can

37:36

meet at least a few of them.

37:36

Like, do you know how to give a

37:40

good apology. There's a lot of

37:40

resources out there about how to

37:45

give a good apology, because a

37:45

lot of us don't know how to do

37:47

that, you know, we sit with a

37:47

lot of feelings of guilt and

37:50

shame when it comes to hurting

37:50

someone else. And, you know,

37:54

we're asking for a liberated

37:54

world where, you know, there's

37:57

so much less harm, but we don't

37:57

even know the processes of like,

38:00

Oh, what do I do when I harm

38:00

someone else? And so I think

38:04

there's a lot, at least for me,

38:04

this, this journey has been a

38:07

lot of like, internal and

38:07

interpersonal work of like, how

38:12

do I like talk to people that

38:12

I'm close with? How do I

38:15

interact when I hurt their

38:15

feelings, or they hurt my

38:18

feelings, even if it's something

38:18

really small, and just making

38:21

sure that like, if you're

38:21

calling yourself an

38:23

abolitionist, if you've put it

38:23

in your bio, if you're saying,

38:26

Yeah, prison abolition is great.

38:26

Yes, like, okay, like, you also

38:29

have to do the work in your

38:29

interpersonal life. And I think

38:33

that's one of the hardest things

38:33

about prison abolition, for me,

38:36

but also one of the most

38:36

important, and I feel like that

38:39

sometimes, like, when we aren't

38:39

learning and community, and you

38:43

just like reading books, and

38:43

like listening to podcasts

38:46

individually can get swept under

38:46

the rug. But I just see that as

38:50

like, really important, because

38:50

we're not going to get to a

38:53

society without prisons if we

38:53

don't know how to apologize and

38:57

like interact with the people

38:57

around us.

38:59

Absolutely and

38:59

that is the hardest part, right?

39:02

Is that relationship prior to

39:02

even, you know, when? Because we

39:05

were organizing, you know, to do

39:05

some fire patrols when we're

39:09

worried about fires, you know,

39:09

and white supremacist being in

39:12

our communities and, and talking

39:12

to, you know, there was

39:16

obviously not enough

39:16

relationship there with some of

39:19

the neighbors. And then when I

39:19

was like, Hey, I think we don't

39:22

have enough relationships and

39:22

you seem like really suspicious

39:26

or what other white person of me

39:26

also white skin. I'm like, I'm

39:29

really not, you know, there was

39:29

one of the neighbors who was

39:33

like, who called the police, you

39:33

know, when our texts read, and I

39:37

got to the point where I was

39:37

like, do you really think that

39:40

like the trans disabled queer

39:40

immigrant with all the rainbows

39:44

like outside the house called

39:44

the police? We obviously need to

39:47

talk and not get to know each

39:47

other and then there was this

39:51

backing away, you know of like,

39:51

oh, yeah, I didn't mean that. I

39:54

was like, no, let's talk like

39:54

it's okay for suspicious of each

39:58

other but let's build this

39:58

relationship. Who are you and

40:01

who am I. I think one thing that

40:01

witness, at least on on our

40:04

block is that a lot of white

40:04

folks wanted to show up in the

40:08

moment of crisis, but then

40:08

staying in relationship through

40:11

those moments of conflict

40:11

through those moments of

40:14

suspicions. For those moments

40:14

that we don't know each other

40:18

was was really hard, you know?

40:18

And that the work like how do we

40:21

stay connected? How do we have

40:21

the hard conversation of who are

40:25

you? And who am I? And what do

40:25

you believe in? What do I

40:28

believe? And are we on the same

40:28

page or on different pages?

40:32

Because if we don't do that

40:32

work, we can have all the values

40:35

we want about not calling the

40:35

police and even all the values,

40:39

we want on abolition, but we're

40:39

not gonna get anywhere. And I

40:42

think that's I don't know,

40:42

sorry, that was a long rant.

40:45

Personal rant, obviously, I'm

40:45

still processing a lot of what

40:49

happened in the last month or

40:49

so. But I want to talk about

40:52

this piece, because I think for

40:52

some people, it feels like a

40:56

simple as well, you know, we

40:56

defend the police and we give

40:59

all the money to social workers,

40:59

right? I don't have to do it is

41:03

the sense of like, I can show up

41:03

in a moment of crisis and do a

41:06

little piece of work but it's

41:06

really this idea of white

41:10

comfort. And I would say also

41:10

white delegation of the work of

41:13

relationship that, you know,

41:13

that rather than showing up and

41:17

having all this hard

41:17

conversations with one another

41:19

is oh, now we give money to

41:19

somebody else who's gonna do

41:23

this work of relationship for

41:23

us. And those people who do the

41:26

work of relationship are social

41:26

workers is not new with my

41:30

neighbor's money. Am I making sense?

41:32

Yeah, yeah, I think

41:32

there's a big push for, like the

41:37

care work to be the

41:37

responsibility of like an other,

41:40

but like, an authority figure

41:40

either, like it's not supposed

41:44

to, like, Okay, I am supposed to

41:44

care about my girlfriend, and my

41:48

dog, right. But I like as an

41:48

individual and not supposed to

41:52

care for my neighbors. And,

41:52

like, that's how society is

41:55

structured right now. And like

41:55

we were saying, like when people

41:59

are saying, okay, defund the

41:59

police, and then give them money

42:01

to all of these, like state

42:01

organizations and departments,

42:05

and all of these like, very,

42:05

like, centralized like, state

42:10

run organizations like it's kind

42:10

of missing the point, because

42:15

especially for social work, I

42:15

have a very complicated

42:18

relationship with my profession,

42:18

because there are some really

42:21

great theories. And there are

42:21

some very few really great

42:26

social workers in history. But

42:26

overall, like, social work a lot

42:30

of the time has been the soft

42:30

arm of the state. And so like,

42:34

the soft arm of policing, and

42:34

you're saying, oh, yeah, just

42:37

give all that money to CPS and

42:37

not addressing the attitudes

42:41

that are there, you know, like

42:41

the way that we're taught to,

42:44

like, carry out these tasks.

42:44

They're supposed to be like

42:47

caring for community members,

42:47

you know, there's just a lot of,

42:53

I guess, like neglectful care

42:53

work that the state does,

42:59

especially around like taking

42:59

kids away from parents,

43:03

institutionalizing people and

43:03

it's like, all of these, like

43:08

institutions that are supposed

43:08

to care for us, like social

43:11

workers, and like nurses and

43:11

doctors, all these people, like,

43:14

yes, they deserve more funding,

43:14

teachers deserve more funding,

43:17

but it's like, if they've

43:17

previously had a relationship

43:21

with like, an entity of policing

43:21

through the state, and you're

43:25

taking away the policing, and

43:25

then not addressing, like the

43:29

relationship, at least for

43:29

social work, I can see it as

43:33

them saying, Oh, well, I just

43:33

like there's no police. So I'm

43:36

the police without gun. You

43:36

know, and I've even seen some

43:42

social workers advocating for us

43:42

to be armed. And it's ridiculous

43:46

to me, because it's like, if

43:46

we're trying to get to a point

43:49

where there's like a very like,

43:49

minimized harm, and especially

43:52

no link, state sanction harm,

43:52

like, we can't just, you know,

43:57

throw money at the problem, like

43:57

we're talking about, like a

44:01

complete restructuring of our

44:01

society. And that's what I was

44:04

saying earlier, when, like some

44:04

of the people who are calling

44:07

for defunding the police are not

44:07

saying it in an abolitionist

44:10

way. Like, it's still it may not

44:10

be police reform, because they

44:15

want to, like defund the police,

44:15

but it is prison industrial

44:19

complex reform. Like they're not

44:19

trying to, like minimize the

44:23

effects of this and ultimately

44:23

get rid of it. They're just

44:25

saying like, Okay, well, maybe I

44:25

won't have police officers, but

44:29

there will still be like, people

44:29

who do policing, you know, I

44:32

still want to be able to, like,

44:32

call someone if my neighbors are

44:36

being sketchy with I just want

44:36

it to be someone without a gun.

44:38

And it's like, but you still

44:38

want the state to like, be

44:42

surveying people and ultimately,

44:42

like, you know, black people,

44:46

trans people, undocumented

44:46

people sounds like they're gonna

44:50

get the brunt of that policing,

44:50

no matter who is doing the

44:54

policing. I think there needs to

44:54

be, I guess a more nuanced and

44:59

serious conversation about like,

44:59

whether you're asking for like

45:03

more social workers, because you

45:03

really let social worker know

45:05

about the profession and our

45:05

history, or people are just

45:08

asking for more social workers

45:08

because it's just soft policing

45:12

and they still want the

45:12

community to be policed.

45:16

Absolutely and I

45:16

love that you talked about like,

45:18

it is a restructuring of our

45:18

society, because it's not just

45:22

the police. It's also the

45:22

educational industrial complex,

45:25

we know, and also how the

45:25

educational industrial complex

45:27

feeds into the military

45:27

industrial complex for a lot of

45:30

poor black and brown Latino

45:30

folks, you know, it's no

45:34

accident that the military

45:34

recruits in high schools with

45:36

high percentages of the BIPOC

45:36

you know, black, indigenous

45:39

people of color, students, like,

45:39

all of the things are connected

45:43

and the way the medical

45:43

industrial complex, supresses

45:46

the same bodies, they're getting

45:46

policed by the police, you know,

45:49

and it's, it is so complex, and

45:49

it you know, all these scenarios

45:54

are going around people are so

45:54

well meaning and again, white

45:57

folks are so well meaning and

45:57

they put the scenarios of like

46:00

imagine, this person is like

46:00

looking like they're talking to

46:04

themselves. And they're really

46:04

upset, and you press something

46:06

on it on an app and a social

46:06

worker shows up and they know

46:10

this person, and I was like that

46:10

is still delegating care work.

46:13

Why can you just be like, hey,

46:13

and imagine you were adding the

46:17

skills of descalating somebody

46:17

or imagine you having the skills

46:21

to be able to talk to somebody

46:21

and be like, Hey, how are you

46:23

doing? What do you need, you

46:23

seem upset, what's going on, and

46:27

actually having skills and I

46:27

think that's why, you know,

46:32

there cannot be, I don't know,

46:32

it just feels like white

46:35

supremacy, is so deeply rooted

46:35

in this country, that for white

46:39

folks, it's even hard to imagine

46:39

not delegating that kind of

46:43

work, and really doing it for

46:43

them. You know, for ourselves,

46:47

it's like, it's really hard for

46:47

white Americans to imagine that

46:51

to this. It's, you know, I don't

46:51

know, if you've seen all the

46:53

stuff going around the internet,

46:53

imagine this. And it's always

46:56

like, just magically, those

46:56

people come and survey this body

47:02

and figure out where this body

47:02

belongs. But also, this body

47:04

does not belong to your

47:04

neighborhood. I've noticed in

47:07

all the scenarios, like the

47:07

person goes back to the group

47:10

home or some other places, like

47:10

group homes are also part of the

47:13

state system. This is problematic.

47:15

A lot of it is very

47:15

much like, reform instead of

47:21

like I feel like sometimes

47:21

people get to a point where

47:25

they're just like, I've gotten

47:25

it, I get prison industrial

47:28

complex abolition, and it's like

47:28

we don't like there's never a

47:31

point where you like completely

47:31

understand it. Because it's

47:34

like, an like evolving everyday

47:34

practice, like interpersonally,

47:38

like, on the government,

47:38

political level, like all of

47:41

these things. And I think,

47:41

especially like those, those

47:45

calls for someone else to come

47:45

and do it. It's like we're

47:49

asking for police to learn how

47:49

to deescalate a situation. And

47:53

we're asking for, like police to

47:53

do all these things when people

47:56

call for reform? And it's like,

47:56

okay, well, you know, if we're

47:59

saying we're defending the police, and using all that funding for other things, right,

48:01

we can train people on how to

48:05

deescalate a situation like just

48:05

people like not social workers,

48:09

not doctors, not EMTs, not

48:09

police officers. We're like,

48:13

there's nothing that inherently

48:13

makes social workers better

48:17

people than like an average day

48:17

person Like I did not become

48:21

this like amazing, like healer

48:21

when I got my social work

48:25

degree, like...

48:25

What you're not a

48:25

superhero of care you're telling

48:29

Yeah! And I think a

48:29

lot of people just get into the

48:29

me. mindset of like, oh, yeah, like

48:32

this random social worker. And

48:35

I'm like, sometimes I interact

48:35

with someone online or like,

48:39

Okay, I have a social work

48:39

degree. So you're saying like,

48:42

yeah, just throw me into this

48:42

scenario and it'll magically be

48:46

fixed. Like, no, these are

48:46

people, they're fallible, they

48:49

have flaws. And honestly, if we

48:49

didn't put social worker on this

48:53

pedestal, like, Yeah, they'll

48:53

just save the world when we

48:56

don't have police. Like, no,

48:56

like, the reason that we trust

49:00

social workers to like, do our

49:00

care work is because we believe

49:03

that we're giving them the

49:03

skills and knowledge to handle

49:07

these, like issues that we see.

49:07

And like police these people

49:10

that we believe we policing. So

49:10

like, we need to get rid of the

49:14

attitude of like, yeah, we need

49:14

to like police people, like tell

49:18

people what they can and can't

49:18

do and like controlling

49:21

people's, like everyday life,

49:21

but also there's so much power

49:25

in like knowing how to

49:25

deescalate a situation like

49:28

knowing all of these different

49:28

skills, how to communicate with

49:31

someone how to listen, like that

49:31

was a whole a whole class in

49:35

college about like, interviewing

49:35

and basically like listening to

49:39

another person when they talk

49:39

and it's like, they have the

49:42

ability to like, democratize

49:42

that knowledge and make it

49:46

available to everyone and like

49:46

go into communities and like,

49:49

you know, emphasize like you're

49:49

already doing this. Here's just

49:53

adding like more skills and more

49:53

like awareness of the phrases of

49:57

what you're already doing. But

49:57

instead of that people want to

50:00

spend money on different forms

50:00

of policing without the police

50:04

and so like like prisons, like

50:04

the phrase police abolition, I

50:08

think kind of lends itself to

50:08

all of these like misconceptions

50:11

about what it looks like and

50:11

like over reliance on like other

50:15

members of the state for

50:15

policing, because like, I don't

50:18

want to just abolish the police,

50:18

I want to abolish the prison

50:22

industrial complex and all forms

50:22

of policing and surveillance. I

50:26

think we have, like, there's a

50:26

lot of excitement around police

50:29

abolition which is really cool.

50:29

And I love to see that and like,

50:33

it's going to make the world a

50:33

better place but I don't want

50:37

that to be a stopping point for

50:37

anyone, because there's so much

50:40

work that needs to be done,

50:40

like, attitude wise,

50:43

interpersonally, like how we

50:43

handle care work, and like the

50:47

delegation of like, who handled

50:47

these, these people, and where

50:50

did these people go at the end

50:50

of the day, and like, meeting

50:54

people's basic needs, and I

50:54

think just abolishing the police

50:58

doesn't do that, like, you need

50:58

a drastic restructuring of like,

51:01

everything. And so this, like

51:01

radical energy around abolishing

51:05

the police is like, just really

51:05

good. And I want people to know

51:09

that to really good, like yes,

51:09

abolish the police. And, like,

51:12

let's keep going, there's so

51:12

much more that we can do. And we

51:16

everybody, like hands on deck to

51:16

get to like our liberated future

51:20

and so I just want people to

51:20

kind of be aware, like, I get

51:23

why the energy is where it's at.

51:23

But like, let's keep going, you

51:27

know, this is like, a pit stop

51:27

on the road to liberate the world.

51:32

Absolutely. And I

51:32

love that abolish the police and

51:35

right because otherwise it is

51:35

substituting this kind of more,

51:39

let's call it from a gender

51:39

lens, right? Harsh, masculine

51:42

policing of the police to for

51:42

the soft policing of like, a

51:46

predominantly cis white women's

51:46

profession, which is social

51:49

work. And I know that's been

51:49

changing, but it's, it's still

51:52

policing, right? And I feel like

51:52

there could be all that a

51:54

conversation about like, care

51:54

work and gendered care work, and

51:58

was it you know, and how care

51:58

work can still be about control

52:02

of bodies and I feel like I

52:02

could talk to you forever. And I

52:06

want to be respectful of your

52:06

time. So for now, and I

52:10

definitely am open to having

52:10

more conversations. But for now

52:12

is there anything that we

52:12

haven't talked about or haven't

52:16

asked you about that you would

52:16

really like to add or throw in

52:20

the mix for this episode, or

52:20

anything that we've missed?

52:24

I want to touch a

52:24

little bit on what you just said

52:26

about like how like police are

52:26

seen as like, masculine, and

52:30

then the social worker is seen

52:30

as like more than feminine. And

52:33

I think that is really like a

52:33

lot of what I've been trying to

52:36

like emphasize is that like, why

52:36

are you okay with like social

52:41

workers policing, and not the

52:41

police. Like there's a lot of

52:44

relationships between like, who

52:44

you see as threatening and who

52:47

you see as harmful, but like,

52:47

women are just as capable of

52:52

like perpetuating harm as men

52:52

like trans people are just as

52:55

capable of perpetuating harm to

52:55

cis people. Often when we put

52:59

like oppressed and marginalized

52:59

people in these like positions

53:03

of power, when they're, it's not

53:03

saying like, Oh, you know,

53:07

you're equal to everybody, and

53:07

you're like, liberated and you

53:11

have more freedom. Like, often

53:11

that's just saying, like, we

53:14

just need a more diverse space

53:14

to continue, like harm in these

53:18

in this like, community. And so

53:18

like, community policing, where

53:22

you know, you have like, a trans

53:22

police officer, or like a black

53:26

police officer, like doesn't

53:26

matter because you're still

53:29

harming people, you're still

53:29

killing people. And so like it

53:34

that no, no aspect of your

53:34

identity, like keeps you from

53:38

perpetuating harm. But when we

53:38

look at the politic of being

53:42

black and trans, or just being

53:42

trans or like, the identity that

53:45

we hold and look at like the

53:45

Columbia River collectives idea

53:48

of identity politics, which is

53:48

that like, your identity affects

53:51

like how you move through the

53:51

world, and like how your

53:53

politics is developed. I think

53:53

gender can be a good kind of

53:58

starting point of like, you

53:58

know, how is your gender been

54:01

policed direct your life are

54:01

people like controlled, like how

54:03

you were allowed to tracks and

54:03

present yourself and like,

54:06

whether or not they respect

54:06

like, who you are and what

54:08

you're asking for. I think that

54:08

can be a good like springboard

54:14

into a larger conversation

54:14

about, not even a conversation,

54:18

but just like internally like

54:18

understanding those

54:21

relationships between policing

54:21

and like, personal identity, and

54:26

then like, the politic that you

54:26

develop, and like how you're

54:30

trying to live your life. So I

54:30

think prison abolition really

54:34

brings all of those together,

54:34

and you can like.... I encourage

54:38

everyone who's listening to kind

54:38

of like, think about the

54:41

identities that you hold and

54:41

then think about the ways that

54:45

the state perpetuates, like

54:45

policing and violence against

54:48

those specific identities just

54:48

on the basis of they can and

54:52

they don't want you to have

54:52

power, and then thinking about

54:55

like, the relationships that

54:55

you've had with people who share

54:58

those identities and politic

54:58

with and how you can kind of

55:03

like shake off that idea of

55:03

policing interpersonally if you

55:06

do the work and have the

55:06

community to do so.

55:09

Absolutely and

55:09

hopefully, that's how we become

55:13

really accomplices. As you know,

55:13

those indigenous organizers have

55:16

been making that beautiful

55:16

distinctions between allies and

55:19

accomplices, you know, and

55:19

accomplices are the folks who

55:22

are not just gonna stand there

55:22

when it's convenient, but

55:24

they're gonna, like put their

55:24

bodies on the line and have skin

55:27

in the game. And as people

55:27

understand more and more, this

55:29

idea that like policing bodies

55:29

is impacting them, too. It's not

55:34

just about other people, these

55:34

people over there, they're being

55:38

the systems of violence, but

55:38

actually we are impacted by

55:42

systems of violence and a lot in

55:42

very different ways. And

55:45

definitely, you know, some

55:45

communities are really bearing

55:47

the brand, you know, black and

55:47

brown and indigenous bodies and

55:50

Trans and Queer bodies in those

55:50

communities are bearing the

55:53

brunt of the systemic violence.

55:53

But it's systemic violence that

55:57

needs to be really undone at all

55:57

levels. And, and that can feel

56:02

overwhelming. But I love that

56:02

you've given people a lot of

56:05

really amazing starting points

56:05

started, let's start from

56:08

ourselves. Right, let's start

56:08

here and see what what's

56:12

happening here when we're

56:12

listening to all of those ideas.

56:15

And, and let's start from

56:15

talking to our neighbors, which

56:17

is much harder than one my

56:17

thing, right. And I go from

56:22

there. Like I said, I feel like

56:22

I could have another hour of

56:27

conversation with you, Deana,

56:27

and my brain is passing with,

56:30

like 150 ideas. And so I'm

56:30

probably it's a good time to

56:34

pause before I become like

56:34

incoherent because I have so

56:37

many ideas buzzing in my brain.

56:37

But one of the things I always

56:41

ask is, if you have a call to

56:41

action, or something that you

56:44

want to highlight at the end of

56:44

the episode, or something that

56:47

you'd like our listeners to kind

56:47

of rally behind or anything like

56:50

that.

56:51

Yeah, so there's a

56:51

fundraiser in my college town of

56:55

Denton, Texas, and it's for this

56:55

community of green tree states.

57:00

And it's mostly like a working

57:00

class like Latinx community that

57:04

had their water cut off and the

57:04

city refuses to pay for it. So

57:09

they've reached one fundraising

57:09

goal, but they're trying to

57:12

raise more money so that they

57:12

can get like the all of the

57:16

installations done, as opposed

57:16

to just like paying for the

57:19

service. And so it would be

57:19

really great if anybody could

57:23

donate to them. There's been a

57:23

lot of money flying around and

57:26

they've like reached one of

57:26

their goals. But there's always

57:29

more to do and they were Denton

57:29

as a city has been very

57:33

supportive of my organizing

57:33

efforts. So I would love to give

57:35

back a little bit.

57:37

That sounds

57:37

awesome. I will put that link in

57:39

the episode description. And I

57:39

mean, and what's, what's more

57:43

foundational than water, and

57:43

people having access to like

57:47

safe water, right? It's yes, so

57:47

let's, you know, if you can

57:52

listeners, please either share

57:52

the fundraiser, if you can

57:55

donate or donate to the

57:55

fundraiser, or even better

57:57

donate and share. You know, when

57:57

we do this as a community, even

58:01

if you can't donate very much it

58:01

does all add up. Deana, thank

58:06

you so much for this

58:06

conversation. This has been

58:09

amazing and like I said, I could

58:09

keep talking with you but any

58:14

last words for our listeners or

58:14

anything you want to say in

58:17

closing.

58:19

Just be comfortable

58:19

with the discomfort that comes

58:23

with engaging with like prison

58:23

industrial complex abolition,

58:28

it's not going to be easy, but

58:28

it can be. It can help you find

58:33

a community that you didn't know

58:33

is around you and it can help

58:36

you learned some things about

58:36

yourself that you didn't know.

58:39

So just be patient with yourself

58:39

as you engage with these ideas

58:43

and be proud of yourself for

58:43

wanting to be part of this like

58:46

movement and push for like a

58:46

liberated world.

58:51

That's so

58:51

beautiful. And thank you gender

58:54

stories listeners for listening

58:54

to another episode. Check out

58:58

the episode description for

58:58

links and thank you so much,

59:02

Deana. This has been wonderful

59:02

and you're welcome on gender

59:06

stories anytime you want to talk

59:06

about any of those subjects or

59:10

other subjects again, thank you

59:10

so much.

59:12

Thank you. It's great talking to you.