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Pushkin Dot fhim as

0:46

a young woman in high school, I

0:49

was on a bus one day and a

0:51

group of guys from a high

0:54

school called Resurrection, it was a Catholic high

0:56

school, well on the bus and they

0:58

started singing glory, glory, segregation.

1:01

They're putting all the in word

1:04

where the white men ought

1:06

to be. And there was another

1:08

little girl sitting on the bus, and

1:11

that little girl was getting

1:13

off the bus in the back of the bus. And

1:16

this little girl must have been seven

1:18

or eight years old. As

1:20

she got off the bus, a group

1:23

of white boys took a big book, like a

1:25

big biology or chemistry book and

1:28

slammed the book into the little girl's

1:30

face and you could see blood. And she was upset

1:32

and she was afraid, and you

1:35

know, she ran off the bus and

1:37

I, you know, I panicked.

1:39

I didn't know what to do, and I thought I'm

1:41

next, and I couldn't help the little girl.

1:44

I was really almost paralyzed.

1:47

But I always felt guilty that I

1:49

didn't do something

1:54

to help that little girl, although realistically

1:56

there was really nothing that I could do, but

1:59

I always felt in life whenever opportunities

2:02

like that came up that I would do

2:04

the most that I could possibly do.

2:09

That's Sakarie Hardnet

2:11

talking about growing up in New Orleans.

2:14

To day, she's a civil rights lawyer outside

2:17

of Washington, d C. I

2:19

wanted to start with that story because it is

2:21

at the center of what Hardnet does

2:23

now. She defends

2:26

and protects people. She

2:28

is courageous.

2:30

Since that day on the bus,

2:33

she has made it her mission to speak

2:35

out when she sees injustice,

2:39

and one of the people she stepped up to defend

2:41

was me. I'm

2:45

Anita Hill. This is

2:47

getting even my podcast

2:49

about equality and what it takes to

2:51

get there. On this

2:53

show, I'm talking with trailblazers,

2:56

people who are working on improving

2:58

our imperfect world and finding

3:01

solutions. In

3:03

my first episode, I spoke with journalists

3:05

and commentator Mark Lamont Hill about

3:08

my on President Biden's historic

3:11

announcement of a black female

3:13

Supreme Court nominee.

3:16

In this episode, you're going to

3:18

hear about another historic Supreme

3:21

Court nomination hearing, one

3:24

that took place over thirty years ago, one

3:27

in which the public heard my testimony

3:30

and saw the aftermath. This

3:34

changed the course of my life forever. But

3:38

in this episode, you're

3:40

not going to hear about me. You're

3:43

going to hear about Sakari Hardnett.

3:51

In the mid nineteen eighties, Hartnett

3:54

served as the assistant to the chairman

3:56

of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission,

3:59

a federal agency in charge of receiving

4:01

and responding to complaints of job discrimination.

4:05

Hardnet and I never crossed path, but

4:08

we had a boss in common, Clarence

4:11

Thomas. In

4:13

nineteen ninety one, Hardnett submitted

4:16

a sworn affidavit to

4:18

the Senate Judiciary Committee outlining

4:20

Thomas's behavior that she had

4:23

witnessed at the EOC. I

4:26

had held the same position prior to her.

4:29

She recounted an environment where young

4:32

black women were being inspected

4:35

and auditioned as

4:38

sexual objects by

4:40

Thomas. She added,

4:42

quote, women know when

4:44

there are sexual dimensions to the attention

4:46

they are receiving, and there

4:48

was never any doubt about

4:51

that dimension in Clarence Thomas's office.

4:55

Hardnett was one of three witnesses the committee

4:57

never called to testify, so

5:01

I decided it was time to give

5:04

her a call. Okay,

5:11

it is recording, Zakari,

5:15

Can you hear me? Yes? I can. Great.

5:18

I am so glad to be having this conversation

5:21

with you. I have always

5:23

wanted not only for myself

5:26

to hear what you had to say, but I want

5:29

the world to hear your

5:31

voice. And I

5:34

am ever grateful that you came

5:36

forward. And I

5:38

feel really fortunate

5:40

to be able to provide this platform

5:43

for you to speak today,

5:46

even though it is thirty years late.

5:49

Thank you very much. This

5:52

episode is about the importance of the truth

5:55

and the price people pay to talent.

5:58

Hardnet's commitment to truth telling began

6:01

well before she went to work at the EOC.

6:05

My interests in civil rights came

6:07

from just growing up in New Orleans.

6:10

I grew up in a very volatile

6:12

period in New Orleans

6:15

and being a black woman, and you

6:18

know, my whole community was black, and I

6:20

just wanted to see some equity there. So

6:23

early on, I teamed up with my

6:25

friends and we would just stage, you

6:27

know, demonstrations. We'd go to theaters and

6:29

try to integrate. We go to lunch

6:31

counters and we try to integrate. We'd

6:34

ride the buses and sit in the front

6:36

of the bus to try to integrate.

6:38

And that really was my

6:41

lifelong experience. So

6:43

working at the EOC must

6:46

have been like

6:49

reaching a high point in your

6:51

career since you were interested in civil

6:53

rights law. Well, actually

6:56

it was very disappointing. When

6:59

I got to the Commission. I worked in

7:01

the office of reviewing Appeals, and

7:04

we were basically locked in

7:06

our offices during the day, and

7:09

we were basically not given

7:11

any training or any support

7:13

on how to prepare or to do the

7:16

appeals, and we were discouraged

7:19

from deciding an appeal

7:21

in favor of some of

7:23

the people who filed appeals. So

7:26

I just felt that it was dishonest. So

7:29

I went to the Chairman's office

7:32

to say thank you for hiring me, but

7:35

I just can't do this job anymore. And

7:38

at that time he says, oh, you don't have to

7:40

leave, Why don't you come and work in my

7:42

office. So I

7:44

was poor. I didn't have any money, I didn't

7:46

have any other prospects and sights.

7:49

So I

7:51

decided to take him up on that offer,

7:54

and I went to Clarence's

7:57

office. Little did I know I

7:59

was jumping from the skillet directly into

8:02

the fire oh, describe

8:04

the environment in that office.

8:09

He was like a fox in

8:11

a henhouse. He would approach

8:14

different females at the Commission. He would

8:16

talk about their bodies, he

8:18

would talk about people that he was dating.

8:21

He talked about things that I

8:24

really wasn't particularly interested in

8:26

discussing with him. And he

8:28

felt that this is my personal

8:31

feeling. He felt that all the black women

8:33

at the Commission were really there at his beck

8:35

and call to say whatever

8:37

he wanted to say to them, to

8:39

attempt to do whatever he wanted to do, and

8:41

that we would just we

8:44

and they were just there to

8:46

accept it and not

8:47

to not to complain

8:49

about it. And I must admit I never

8:51

saw him interact that

8:53

way with any of the white females at the

8:55

Commission. After

8:58

a while, I saw, you know, how he

9:00

interacted with me. And on

9:02

many occasions, I would leave

9:04

the office in the morning and try to not

9:07

return, just to to stay

9:09

away because I did not want to be

9:11

in that office. And he would call around,

9:14

you know, have people call around to find out where

9:16

I was, for me to go to have coffee

9:18

with him or to just chat

9:20

with him. So I would try

9:23

to get involved in other activities

9:26

at the Commission, and it got

9:28

to the point where I just

9:30

I did not want to be in that office

9:32

anymore, and I

9:35

asked to be transferred out of that office

9:37

to the General Council's office at that time,

9:40

and I was told by the woman who

9:42

was executive secretary at that time

9:44

that people did not ask to be transferred

9:46

out of the Chairman's office, but I

9:49

told him that, I guess you know, I'm an exception

9:51

and I don't want to be in here anymore. Did

9:53

you experience something similar to

9:55

this in other professional roles

9:58

that you had, or was this there's something

10:00

unique about this office?

10:02

Well. Being a black woman in

10:04

America and a young woman

10:08

in America, I mean, we're often

10:10

times subjected to what's

10:13

known now as sexual harassment, but

10:16

it happens on different levels, and

10:18

sometimes, you know, in order to survive,

10:20

you just to try to shirk it off. But

10:22

in this particular situation, because

10:25

of the way that I felt about civil

10:27

rights, because I knew

10:30

the importance of that position

10:32

and the importance of that

10:35

organization, it was really

10:37

difficult for me to watch Clarence

10:41

take it so cavalierly and

10:43

the things that I thought were important

10:46

in terms of civil rights and what was happening

10:48

in the nation and our progression

10:51

as a people, our progression

10:53

as women. I just did not see

10:55

that happening at the Commission

10:58

at that time. Do

11:00

you remember when

11:03

you first found out that Thomas was

11:05

being considered for the Supreme Court?

11:08

Yeah? I do. When

11:11

Clarence was nominated for that position,

11:13

I was literally shocked because

11:16

I knew him, I knew what he did at the Commission,

11:19

and I could not believe that

11:22

somebody like Clarence

11:24

would be considered for such an important

11:27

position. And really,

11:29

I don't understand why

11:31

I was so naive at that time, because

11:34

that same body as the body that

11:37

you know of help Plessy versus Ferguson,

11:40

the same body that said that,

11:42

you know, we were not entitled to certain

11:44

rights as human beings, as full human

11:46

beings. So I remember

11:49

talking to different people

11:51

and eventually talking to the dean of

11:53

my law school, Edgar

11:55

Khan, and meeting with Edgar,

11:58

and you know, saying to him, Edgar, something's

12:00

got to be done about this, and

12:05

really thinking what could

12:07

be done, because it liked

12:09

it was already etched in stone that that's

12:11

what was going to take place. He would be nominated

12:14

right the president said he was the best qualified

12:17

man for the job. You

12:19

had already left the EOC by then,

12:22

that's correct. He had left

12:24

the EOC to sit on

12:26

the Court of Appeals in Washington, DC,

12:29

which is considered to be

12:32

one of the entry

12:34

points to a Supreme Court nomination

12:36

sitting in a DC Court

12:38

of Appeals. So, given

12:40

all of that that you knew, what

12:43

did you expect to happen?

12:46

How did you expect that the confirmation hearing

12:48

was going to play out? Well,

12:51

you know, I had no idea. I had no idea.

12:54

Eventually I began to hear your

12:56

name, you know, I began to hear

12:59

more about you and what was

13:01

taking place, and I

13:03

sort of witnessed what you were

13:05

going through with the confirmation hearings,

13:08

and as a result of that, you know,

13:10

I really became alarmed and got

13:13

in touch with again with my professor

13:15

Edgar Khan, and told him that I felt

13:17

that I had to do something, or that

13:20

we needed to organize a group

13:22

of people to get together to do something

13:24

to support you. But what

13:26

we decided to do was to

13:29

attempt to give some credence to

13:31

what you were saying and to let people

13:34

know that it was not unusual

13:37

for Clarence to act that way with people,

13:39

and especially black women at the Commission.

13:45

Like I said before, he was like a fox

13:47

in a henhouse, And

13:49

I wanted to make the committee

13:51

aware of the fact that you were

13:54

not lying to them or making up

13:56

statements, that this, in fact

13:59

is what was happening at the EOC

14:02

and that you had witnessed it, and

14:05

that yeah, that I've witnessed it firsthand.

14:09

When we come back, Hardnett and

14:11

I will get into the details of how her statement

14:13

was handled or mishandled.

14:23

You're listening to getting even my

14:26

podcast about equality and

14:29

what it takes to get there. I'm

14:32

Anita Help and I'm talking

14:34

with Sukari Hardnett. She

14:38

submitted a statement to the

14:40

Senate Judiciary Committee in

14:42

nineteen ninety one outlining

14:45

Clarence Thomas's behavior that

14:47

she witnessed while working at the Equal

14:49

Employment Opportunity Commission, but

14:52

she was never given an opportunity

14:55

to testify. So it's out

14:57

of your hands. Now you've written your statement.

15:00

What did you expect to happen with

15:04

the statement? What would you have liked to

15:06

have happened even well,

15:09

would I would like to have had the

15:11

opportunity to

15:14

testify before the

15:16

committee to let them

15:18

know that what he was

15:20

saying was absolutely

15:23

true, that your experiences

15:25

had been my experiences. At the

15:27

commission, Clarence

15:31

was not the best qualified person

15:33

for that position. There were

15:36

many many I mean, if they wanted to have

15:38

a black person in that position, there

15:40

were many, many, many black

15:42

men and women who were

15:44

far more qualified than Clarence

15:47

and somebody who was

15:50

suitable to step into

15:52

the quote unquote seat that

15:55

was held by Thurgood Marshall.

15:58

I was fearful actually that

16:01

if he got into into that

16:03

position, considering conversations

16:06

that I've had with him, that

16:08

he would do exactly what he has done

16:10

through the years. Do you

16:13

know what actually happened to

16:15

the statement after you handed

16:17

it over, Well, I knew that it reached

16:20

the Senate Judiciary Committee because they

16:22

said that, you know, another woman has

16:24

come out. So I knew that the committee

16:27

had the statement, and I knew

16:29

that there was a possibility that they

16:32

would call me, and I was prepared.

16:35

I felt that I was prepared at that time

16:37

to answer whatever questions they

16:40

might have had. Probably not as

16:43

artfully and skillfully

16:45

and with such poise as

16:47

you did, but definitely.

16:49

I felt that I could give them whatever

16:52

information they wanted to support your

16:54

position. So what if any communications

16:57

did you have with the Senate Judiciary

16:59

Committee, None

17:02

with the staffers or none?

17:06

Though you were not told anything about

17:09

your statement per se until

17:12

you were told

17:14

that you were not going to be testifying. No,

17:18

I was never told that I would not be testifying.

17:21

Oh. No, one from

17:23

the committee, not the staff members

17:26

on the committee, ever got

17:28

in touch with me. I mean, the most I

17:30

heard was what I saw on

17:33

television, And after a while

17:35

I stopped looking at the proceedings

17:37

because I thought it was just a sham.

17:40

And as a black woman, it

17:43

was very difficult for me to sit down

17:45

and see what they were trying

17:48

to do to you. But

17:50

I think because of your poise, and

17:53

I think I saw your family there, because

17:55

of your family support and

17:58

just an inner calmness

18:02

that you seem to have, I

18:06

think carried you through and prevented

18:09

them from succeeding. Were

18:11

you still watching the hearings when Biden

18:14

bang down the gavel and closed

18:17

them out. No.

18:20

At that point I knew what

18:22

the writing on the wall was. I mean, I

18:24

knew that they were going to confirm Thomas

18:27

and you know that was my fear, and they did.

18:30

And look where we are now, look

18:32

at the composition of the court. Like

18:35

I said, I was very naive then, and I

18:37

thought that, you know, only certain learned

18:40

people who had a sense of justice

18:42

and righteousness should

18:45

hold those positions. But I have subsequently

18:48

learned that that is not the case. And the sad

18:50

thing about that is

18:52

that I'm not the only one

18:55

who has noticed that that

18:57

these are the things that erode at

19:00

our democratic system. You

19:02

know, our system is based upon us

19:04

agreeing to believe in

19:06

certain things and to live by certain

19:09

rules. And when those

19:11

rules are broken down, when

19:13

people are put in a position

19:16

where they don't trust that the system

19:18

will work the way that they've been told

19:20

it's going to work or it should work, then

19:23

that's when you start to have

19:25

problems. And I think

19:28

the thing that has made America the

19:30

country that it is is not so much because it

19:32

was so righteous from the beginning, but

19:34

because we have struggled as a nation

19:36

to get to the point where

19:39

we try to become a more perfect

19:41

union. So ultimately,

19:44

your statement was

19:46

put into the record, which

19:49

is of course not the same as being

19:52

asked to testify, not being allowed

19:54

to testify. I guess

19:56

let me ask it. Let me just ask it. Why do

19:58

you think the Senate Judiciary Committee didn't

20:01

either subpoena you or call you

20:03

to testify. You

20:05

know, I have no idea. I

20:08

think pretty much it

20:10

was decided that Clarence

20:13

would be placed in that position. I

20:15

don't know if the Democratic

20:17

white males on the committee felt that their

20:20

hands were sort of tied and they were attacking

20:23

a black man. Clarence used all

20:26

of the language. I mean, I could not believe

20:29

a high tech lynching, I thought

20:31

to myself, or a high tech tom But

20:33

at any rate, it's almost like they were

20:36

afraid or intimidated and

20:38

just sort of sugarcoated everything

20:40

when it came to Clarence Thomas,

20:43

and it was very difficult

20:46

for me to look at it then and

20:48

then almost thirty

20:51

years later, I couldn't watch

20:53

the Kavanaugh hearings because it

20:56

was reliving to me. The

20:58

whole situation with the Thomas

21:00

hearing and Miss Ford's

21:03

testimony was as compelling

21:05

as your testimony was. You

21:08

know, I have been welcoming the chance to

21:10

talk with you and to hear from you, and for the

21:13

people who would have wanted to

21:15

hear from you thirty years ago. Can hear

21:18

what you had to say. I

21:20

think one of the greatest

21:22

disservices of the

21:25

nineteen ninety one hearing was

21:29

the failure to call you

21:32

to testify.

21:34

I think it was done as

21:38

a way to slight

21:41

and dismiss the

21:43

value of the voices of

21:46

black women. It

21:49

was a way to avoid hearing

21:51

the truth that the committee

21:54

may or may not have been willing to deal

21:56

with as the truth. I

21:59

think it was disrespectful,

22:03

and I

22:06

just wanted to be a part of

22:10

revealing that our

22:14

truths have merit

22:17

and they should be listened to and

22:20

taken into account in the way the world

22:22

is shaped. When we talk about

22:24

fairness and equality, we can't

22:27

have it unless we are listening

22:30

to the people who have

22:32

suffered from inequality.

22:36

And so in part,

22:39

we're asking what if? And

22:42

a big part of the what if is what

22:44

if all of the information

22:47

that was available in nineteen

22:50

ninety one, that information

22:52

that you provided, that the other witnesses

22:55

have provided, that some of the

22:57

experts had developed and were

23:01

ready to testify to what

23:03

if that had been made public?

23:07

Do you think that

23:09

the public conversation might

23:12

be different today because you've talked

23:14

about where we are today, and

23:17

you talked about Christine Bozzie Ford

23:20

in twenty eighteen. Could

23:23

that hearing have been different

23:27

had the nineteen ninety

23:29

one hearing been different? You

23:33

know, Anita, I don't know. But

23:36

what I do know is

23:39

that you give people

23:41

information and

23:44

you let them decide. You

23:46

don't withhold information and

23:49

then say, well, look at

23:51

the conclusion that they came to. And

23:54

we as a nation were denied

23:57

that opportunity to hear

23:59

all the facts, to weigh

24:01

the facts, and to come

24:03

to the conclusion, whatever conclusion

24:05

we chose to come to now

24:09

and the Kavanaugh hearings, they

24:11

were given the facts, and

24:14

I think we have a responsibility to

24:16

give people the facts,

24:19

to give them the truth, and not make believe

24:21

facts the things that we make up, but to give

24:23

them the truth and

24:25

then they can decide. And if they

24:28

take the facts and they misuse them, then

24:31

it's on them. If they

24:33

take the facts and they cover

24:35

them up and they hide it, then it's

24:37

on them. But we have

24:39

a responsibility to give

24:41

people the facts and to give them true

24:44

facts and let them decide

24:47

at that point what to do with those facts.

24:51

In retrospect. Given the way

24:53

the things played out with

24:55

your statement, would

24:58

you do it differently today?

25:02

Without question, I would do

25:04

the same thing. I have

25:06

no reservations, no

25:09

doubts, not

25:11

one. I would do the same

25:13

thing because what

25:16

you said and what you

25:19

did was the truth, and

25:22

I wanted to support the truth. And

25:24

I think even more so in

25:28

this period in our country, we

25:30

understand how important it is to have

25:33

the facts and to have true facts, and

25:36

so I would do it. I would do the exact same

25:39

thing all over again. Do

25:41

you think that there are other people who were intimidated

25:44

I'm coming forward by the behavior

25:47

of the committee. Well,

25:49

I think afterwards I talked

25:51

to people. I remember one friend

25:54

said to me that another friend had called

25:56

and said about me.

25:58

What was she thinking? Why would she do something

26:01

like that? It never occurred

26:03

to me that the consequences

26:05

would be what they have. Then.

26:08

I have not been able to basically

26:11

get a job with an organization, with

26:13

a law firm. I went into

26:15

private practice because that was the

26:17

only option that I had. I've

26:19

been, you know, pretty much blacklisted.

26:22

Not that there was a concerted effort to blacklist

26:25

me, but if anybody knew that I'd

26:27

testified or given support

26:30

to you, they basically did

26:33

not want to have my name

26:35

on their letterhead. Has

26:39

the experience that you had in

26:41

nineteen ninety one shaped

26:44

how you think about

26:46

fighting for justice and truth

26:49

for the people that you represent. Definitely.

26:52

You know, there's a saying that was used on

26:54

the continent for many, many years, and

26:56

I believe in that the struggle continues,

26:59

and it's just made me even more determined

27:03

to struggle and to support

27:06

just causes that I believe in that

27:08

will be my fight for the rest of my life.

27:11

It has not curtailed

27:14

my determination, it

27:16

has not hindered it in any way.

27:18

It's really just made me even

27:20

more determined to continue

27:22

to do what I do, to

27:25

fight for what I believe in and

27:28

what I know is the right thing to do. The

27:33

way the senators and the media handled

27:35

the hearing didn't just impact

27:37

hardnet in me, and it

27:39

wasn't just that they failed to call

27:41

her to testify. All

27:44

of it had a ripple effect on

27:47

millions of people who were watching

27:49

at home, some

27:51

of them deciding for themselves

27:53

if they would speak up about sexual harassment

27:56

that they had experienced or witness

28:00

I've received thousands of letters. I

28:03

still received letters from people telling

28:06

me about sexual harassment that has altered

28:08

their life, and I can't

28:10

help wondering why they still

28:13

have to pay such a high

28:15

price for telling the truth, for

28:18

doing the right thing. So

28:20

the struggle does continue, Yes

28:23

it does. I do have one question,

28:25

in particular, why did you

28:27

name your program Getting Even Well?

28:31

Because I think what we

28:33

have talked about for many years

28:36

is opportunity, and

28:39

what we're looking for is outcomes.

28:41

We want results. I wanted

28:44

us to think about equality

28:46

and equity in a new way,

28:50

not just in terms of opportunity, but

28:53

also in terms of outcomes,

28:56

measurable outcomes in the way that

28:58

people live every day.

29:00

So that's why it's Getting

29:02

Even I think

29:05

that's my only question. I just I

29:08

just want to say that I hope you continue

29:10

on the path that you have chosen,

29:14

and if at

29:16

any point I can be of

29:18

any assistance, please let me know.

29:21

But I'm very proud of you, and

29:24

you've made a tremendous sacrifice,

29:27

tremendous sacrifice, and

29:30

I'm glad that you did. And

29:32

if you're ever in Washington, we

29:35

should have lunch. Yes, we'll

29:37

find a place close

29:39

to the Supreme Court. Okay,

29:44

sit down and have lunch together. Okay,

29:46

take care. Thank you. I

29:58

will always be grateful to Sakari

30:01

Hartnet for taking an enormous

30:03

risk to help me. We

30:05

will never know the price she paid for

30:07

simply coming forward to tell the truth.

30:11

If only one of the senators had

30:14

stepped up and demanded that she

30:16

be called to testify, that she

30:18

be heard, if

30:20

they had someone deciding

30:22

whether to speak out against sexual harassment,

30:25

they'd witness, might have

30:28

had the courage to follow her example.

30:32

We can't redo nineteen ninety one,

30:35

but I'm hopeful that others like me

30:37

will see Hartnett as their

30:39

model for how to be brave

30:42

in the face of injustice.

30:51

On the next episode of Getting Even,

30:54

I'll be talking with Susan Della Ross.

30:57

She was the only member of my nineteen

31:00

ninety one legal team with experience

31:02

in sexual harassment law. We'll

31:05

be discussing what went on

31:07

behind the scenes. There

31:09

was very clear evidence the media never

31:11

reported on afterwards. They shut it down

31:14

once he was confirmed, so

31:16

the general public has never

31:18

come to learn exactly what

31:21

the evidence was that corroborated everything

31:23

you said. Getting

31:26

Even is a production of Pushkin Industries

31:29

and is written and hosted by me Anita

31:31

Hill. It is produced by Molaboard

31:34

and Brittany Brown. Our editor

31:37

is Sarah Kramer, our engineer

31:39

is Amanda kay Wang, and our

31:41

showrunner is Sasha Matthias.

31:45

Louis Gara composed original

31:47

music for the show. Special

31:50

thanks to Vicki Merrick for

31:52

voice coaching and Eve Abrahams

31:55

for recording this episode.

31:57

Our executive producers are Mia

32:00

Lobell and Lee tal Mallad.

32:03

Our director of Development is Justine

32:06

Lang. At Pushkin

32:09

thanks to Heather Fane,

32:11

Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel,

32:14

Julia Barden, John Schnarz,

32:17

and Jacob Weisberg. You

32:19

can find me on Twitter at

32:21

Anita Hill and on

32:23

Facebook at Anita Hill.

32:26

You can find Pushkin on all social platforms

32:29

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32:31

and you can sign up for our newsletter

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32:36

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32:46

Even and other Pushkin shows

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