0:00

In eighteen fifty two, a paper called

0:02

The Spirit Messenger told people

0:05

new to spiritualism how to hold

0:07

their very own seance. Who

0:10

right, Okay, let's get some seance music

0:12

going. Huh nice? Okay.

0:15

A seance or a spirit

0:17

circle requires this of the sitter,

0:19

according to the publication quote,

0:22

First, let none join your circle

0:25

but those who feel attracted. Invite

0:28

none but those who feel a desire

0:30

to search for truth and would be congenial

0:32

with you. Second, when you

0:34

have a medium present, communications

0:37

are promised conditionally. If

0:39

you come with candid minds and a desire

0:41

to know the truth, the spirits will endeavor

0:43

to communicate with you. Third,

0:46

let one among you be appointed

0:48

to repeat the alphabet. Fourth,

0:51

your meetings should be opened with singing,

0:53

and clothes with singing, and all

0:56

should pray, ferishing an inward

0:58

desire to have good spirits

1:00

with you or those who are the

1:02

most progressed. Five, in

1:05

the absence of a medium, the circle

1:07

should be formed with the same harmonious

1:09

feelings, and the spirits be with

1:11

you and impress with truthful thoughts.

1:14

Six. Those who unite with the

1:16

circle must not indulge in inharmonious

1:19

feelings, strife, or bitterness,

1:21

but follow the example of Christ

1:23

in doing good seven all

1:26

strive to live cheerful or happy,

1:28

and there will be a corresponding harmony

1:30

between you and the spheres

1:33

unquote. Now, obviously, the

1:35

mid nineteenth century wasn't the first

1:37

time that people had tried to make contact

1:40

with the dead in human history. They

1:43

had been at it first

1:45

centuries. Ancient mythology and

1:47

history is full of accounts of contact

1:50

with the dead through necromancy,

1:52

which shares qualities of the seance,

1:54

but is not the seance. Necromancy,

1:58

unlike the mediums who are inspired by

2:00

the Fox Sisters of Hydesville, New York

2:03

in the forties, often

2:05

involved violence in its early

2:07

history, featuring a combination of

2:09

ritualized words spells

2:12

if you will, and an action,

2:14

often a sacrifice. Necromancy

2:17

appears in some of the most famous

2:19

early stories we have. So just

2:21

kick it back to your middle school brain for a

2:23

second and think of Odysseus,

2:26

who talks to a witch who is able

2:28

to conjure the spirit of a crewman

2:31

in odissease his mother and even

2:33

the mythic hero Hercules for

2:36

him to get advice. And yes,

2:38

they all drink the blood of sheep it's the whole

2:40

thing Orpheus. This whole story

2:42

involves going down to the spirit world

2:44

to rescue his wife from the underworld,

2:47

and Hercules himself goes down there too.

2:50

In ancient Rome, the stories were even

2:52

louder and more violent. One

2:55

of my favorite is when a witch screams,

2:58

do I ever jet? These spells out

3:00

consuming human and trails

3:02

incredible energy. Let's let's bring up back.

3:05

Some Roman emperors actually employed

3:07

necromancers, most notably

3:10

Emperor Nero, which is interesting because

3:12

I feel like he was a pretty chill guy.

3:14

Otherwise, there's also records

3:16

of necromancy and killed the history and myths.

3:19

It is featured throughout the Middle Ages

3:22

in early Christianity, where some

3:24

of the earliest cautionary tales exist.

3:27

One that comes right to mind is King Saul

3:29

outlawing the practice of necromancy

3:32

and then seeking out a spirit guide

3:34

anyways, and action that leads to the

3:36

loss of a huge battle as well

3:38

as the life of him and his son.

3:41

These appear alongside uh

3:44

good Christian ghosts, which are

3:46

different for reasons.

3:49

I mean Easter ghost holiday

3:51

Phononically, there's actually a

3:54

lot of ghost holidays. There

3:56

is Dia de los Muertos in

3:58

Mexico. So when in

4:00

the Celtic tradition the Hungry

4:02

Ghost festival or Yulawn in China,

4:05

Oban in the Japanese Buddhist

4:07

tradition gaid in Haiti

4:10

or Easter where Jesus is famously

4:13

dead. But there's one important element

4:15

that distinguishes the seance from virtually

4:18

all of these holidays and many

4:20

of these myths. In these holidays,

4:22

the ghosts come to us. We

4:25

are on their schedule. In a

4:27

seance, we are the ones

4:30

calling them. In these

4:32

stories, the person who seeks out

4:34

contact with the dead for their own personal

4:36

comfort as opposed to the interest

4:39

of others or to serve their

4:41

own God are usually punished

4:43

in seances. That's the whole

4:46

point. It's a small distinction, but

4:48

an important one. The seance,

4:50

as spiritualists use it was one of the first

4:53

major innovations of the faith. But

4:55

the history of spiritualist rituals came

4:57

to be so much more, some

5:00

of which has fallen by the wayside, and

5:02

other practices that are still used

5:04

in Cassadega today.

5:07

Today is all about turning it up to an

5:09

eleven. We're going to go to Cassadega

5:12

to check out the colossic spiritualist

5:14

ritual of table tipping, and

5:17

check in with the Fox Sisters who invented

5:19

the practice of the science on their first

5:22

national tour, and see what happened

5:24

during their first brush with public backlash.

5:27

So, okay, we're starting our science.

5:30

Now, let's get this going. Step three,

5:32

let's get singing. Somebody

5:35

once told me the world

5:38

is just kidding. Start the theme song

5:42

wore.

6:38

All right, I'm back in Cassadega,

6:40

Florida, and I'm waiting for

6:43

a friend. Yeah, I

6:45

have friends. I'm walking around

6:47

looking for snacks, of which

6:50

there are none to be found. But

6:53

on my walk around the neighborhood, I

6:55

do spot this beautiful

6:57

candy colored lavender house, four

7:00

bedrooms and a small gazebo

7:02

on sale for a kind of stunningly

7:05

reasonable price. But it's a

7:07

nonstarter. You need the approval

7:09

of the Southern Cassadega Spiritualist

7:12

Camp to live there, due to its status

7:15

as a protected official campgrounds

7:17

home. This approval process

7:19

is referenced extensively on the

7:22

Cassadega, Florida and lily

7:24

Dale, New York websites. Sure

7:27

you can live in a gorgeous house for a

7:29

low price, But you first

7:31

need to prove that you are worthy

7:33

and involved with the community, and

7:36

in a move that is a little exclusionary

7:38

but makes sense to me in the circumstances.

7:41

Mediums who have completed the equivalent

7:44

of a three or more year university

7:47

course slash unpaid internship

7:50

to live there will get preference.

7:53

But I let myself have the fantasy for

7:55

a minute. Anyways, a friend and

7:57

I come down to Cassadega. We learned

7:59

to immune with the dead. We live

8:02

a minute's walk from a gorgeous

8:04

public park and community,

8:06

and well, I guess we would need to get a

8:08

car because the only place to get food

8:10

in all of Cassadega is a

8:12

place called Sinatra's Restaurante,

8:15

and it's open five days out of

8:17

the week. But the ear here smells

8:19

so fresh, and it's attempting

8:21

idea. But to quote

8:24

the man who I am taking today, is able

8:26

tipping class from the reverend

8:28

doctor. I know another

8:30

reverend doctor, the reverend

8:32

doctor Lewis Gates. He

8:34

will say to me in a reading I get from

8:36

him a couple of days later, you

8:39

have no business in Florida. Okay,

8:42

he's probably right, but that's a little

8:44

harsh but I don't know he's

8:46

going to say that yet. At this point,

8:49

Reverend Doctor Lewis Gates is little

8:51

more than a name on a website to me.

8:54

But unlike most reverends and mediums

8:56

at the camp, he's got deep

8:59

roots here. He's a third generation

9:01

medium, raised by a medium

9:03

mother and a Baptist priest father.

9:06

And he'll tell us that he still uses

9:08

the deck of tarot cards that belonged

9:10

to his grandmother. Now, one

9:12

of the defining traits of modern spiritualism

9:15

is its seemingly intentional

9:17

lack of central figure. But for

9:19

my money, if Cassadega at

9:21

present has one defining figure,

9:24

it appears to be Reverend Dr

9:26

Lewis. He's virtually everywhere

9:29

during my time there. He's at services,

9:31

he's doing healings, he's

9:34

headlining the message service as it

9:36

were, he's going on walks,

9:38

he's attending services, he's

9:40

not even technically participating it.

9:43

And he's got a big personality. He's

9:45

a real animated guy and probably

9:47

the best candidate to show us how

9:49

tables can connect us with the

9:52

spirit realm, both because

9:54

he has a lot of experience and because

9:56

he has this unique ability to

9:58

sell a group of people mostly new

10:01

to the religion of Spiritualism on

10:03

one of its more esoteric experiences.

10:06

Another of these more obscure ideas

10:09

that he specializes in that I find

10:11

particularly fascinating is

10:13

trance mediumship, a form

10:16

of mental mediumship where a spirit

10:18

communicates through a medium

10:20

using their own voice and mannerisms.

10:24

Reverend Dr Lewis writes on his website

10:26

about a spirit that he channels most

10:28

often, whose name is Lucerne,

10:31

who he identifies as quote

10:33

being from another dimension unquote.

10:36

Lucern started coming to him many years

10:39

ago, so for comparison,

10:42

Reverend Dr Lewis Gates, sounds

10:44

like this, we have a fear of

10:46

leaving people behind. I'll

10:48

leaving our life behind, our vibration. We

10:50

are the fear kind of what

10:53

we're going to see when we open our eyes on the

10:55

other side. And Locern sounds

10:58

like this, when you actually

11:00

despaired world to come here, you

11:03

pick your place in the city

11:06

and state of your bath, in the

11:08

city and country of your bath, my

11:11

kingdom for a single meeting with Ucern.

11:14

But unfortunately Lucern

11:16

is not making an appearance in Cassadaga

11:18

today. Instead, my friend

11:20

and I are taking a class in

11:23

the Reverend Dr Lewis's physical

11:25

mediumship through table tipping.

11:28

My friend is from Orlando, about a half

11:30

hour away, and she is

11:32

coming in completely cold,

11:35

so buckle in right

11:37

away. She has this combination

11:40

of wonder and conviction about

11:42

how the world works that is fascinating

11:45

to me. I've never actually met

11:47

this friend in real life before.

11:49

We met around six months ago through unionization

11:53

efforts for podcasters, which

11:55

listener, let me tell you worked

11:58

out unionize your workplaces. But

12:01

this is the first time we've actually met in

12:03

a time where I sometimes forget that

12:05

I haven't met people in person in

12:07

a while. She parked in front of the bookstore

12:10

and doesn't know whether to comment on

12:12

how bizarre it is that this place exists

12:14

so close to where she grew up, or

12:17

to just kind of take in the experience. She

12:20

starts by telling me that I'm so much taller

12:23

than she thought, which is something I

12:25

get a lot. You know, Jamie, I didn't expect

12:27

you to be this tall. Well, guess what,

12:30

I'm six ft tall and my personality

12:32

is hard five six

12:35

all right, I don't have to disclose that to

12:37

you. Nice to meet you too. She

12:39

comes into the gift shop with me as the class

12:42

is about to start, and immediately picks

12:44

up on one of the more obvious

12:46

and polarizing aspects of Cassadega

12:49

and of American spiritualism

12:51

on the whole. It's extremely

12:54

white, she says, quote,

12:57

what is this? Is this white people

12:59

culture? I look around

13:01

nervously, already feeling like my most

13:03

recent encounter with the Spiritualist

13:06

had left me a bit at a disadvantage.

13:09

My goal for today is to be

13:12

here, be present, try

13:14

not to piss anyone off, and show

13:16

that I'm genuinely interested so

13:18

that the board of the Spiritualists

13:21

who control public relations don't

13:24

tell me to go fuck myself. But

13:26

it feels weird. So

13:28

I lean over to my friend and I tell

13:30

her I don't really know

13:32

what table tipping is, but surely

13:35

Reverend Dr Lewis is going to tell us

13:37

what it is. At the beginning of the two hour table

13:40

tipping session, right, I

13:42

noticed a few things about the Andrew Jackson

13:44

Davis Educational Room that I didn't

13:47

at the message service earlier in

13:49

the day, particularly this one

13:52

poster sized papyrus font graphic

13:54

reading proclamation beneath

13:57

Cassadega's signature, some flower

13:59

loco everything is

14:01

significant here, and so it stands to reason

14:04

that the sunflower is as well. I

14:06

wasn't able to trace the history of who

14:09

decided that the sunflower was

14:12

the symbol of the spiritualists,

14:14

but it's one that has always symboled

14:16

constancy and can be found

14:18

on nearly every branded item in

14:21

the camp. There's maybe about forty

14:23

people at the afternoon table

14:25

tipping class. Our chairs

14:27

are surrounding Reverend Dr Lewis

14:30

Gates and his fellow Cassadega

14:32

medium and spouse Marie

14:34

Gaines. They stand in the center of

14:36

the meeting room with three tables

14:39

of various sciences, all of

14:41

which have three legs. I'm

14:43

about to learn way more about the

14:46

other people in this room than I

14:48

thought I was going to. Within

14:50

minutes, I will know that there's a man

14:53

whose father had died just weeks

14:55

before, who he was desperate to

14:57

make contact with in spite of his disc

15:00

belief in the great beyond. I

15:02

would learn about the old woman who comes

15:04

every time this workshop is held

15:07

in an attempt to make contact with her

15:09

dead pets. I would meet the

15:11

Cassadega regulars who want to say

15:13

hello to their dead relatives that they

15:15

speak to on the tables all the

15:17

time. I meet the curious goth

15:20

girls making a day trip together after

15:22

the first one of them got their driver's license.

15:25

The German tourist girls on a semester

15:27

abroad who gets scared and leave in

15:29

the middle. The middle aged women who

15:31

are there to support their friend as she

15:33

embarks on the goal of becoming a medium

15:36

and maybe going to night class

15:39

question mark. And I'm there

15:41

with my friend too, So let me give

15:43

you a feel for Louis

15:45

and Marie Gates. He wears

15:48

a Hawaiian shirt, more casual

15:51

than the Sunday dressing of just an

15:53

hour before. And Marie,

15:55

who grew up as a Quaker, and

15:58

I later noticed walks of

16:00

real footsteps behind her husband

16:02

on their morning walks as they

16:04

take their cat around in a stroller. Iconic

16:07

love that for them. They both

16:09

have very distinct personalities.

16:12

His is booming and hers is

16:14

observational and at a few

16:17

choice points a little quietly

16:19

sarcastic towards her husband. They

16:21

act as if we all know exactly

16:24

what table tipping is, which

16:26

is a huge mistake, if the confused

16:29

faces of most of the people in the room

16:32

are any indication. But

16:34

they banter like a married couple because

16:36

they are a married couple. Here's

16:39

Louis Gates being introduced at a Sunday

16:41

service in Cassadega the week after

16:44

I left by Marie at

16:46

a service where because the Valentine's

16:48

Day, a number of spiritualists

16:50

had just renewed their wedding

16:53

vows. At this time, I

16:55

would like to bring up our pastor,

16:58

Reverend Dr Louis Gates, pastor,

17:00

medium, healer, teacher, an

17:02

awesome husband. Yeah,

17:11

I wanted to speak today about

17:14

our commitment to each other, our

17:17

commitment to the universe, our commitment

17:20

to our own being within our lives.

17:23

A lot of times we forget ourselves as we

17:25

move into different situations. Today

17:28

we committed our connection

17:30

to the individual that we married as

17:32

our renewal vows. Again,

17:34

we had a few connect to their higher

17:37

connection to themselves. But

17:39

we always have to realize that we

17:42

have to nurture our being

17:44

in this lifetime. We have to nurture ourselves.

17:46

We have to connect ourselves to

17:48

this higher sense of consciousness. So,

17:51

yeah, they're a team and they practice

17:53

out of the same building around the

17:55

corner. But today we are

17:57

table tipping and they get right into

18:00

it without explaining to you what the

18:02

funk is going on. This seems

18:04

to be the general practice in the area, though,

18:07

these assumptions that you understand

18:09

what's happening, things like yes,

18:12

spirit is real, Yes, you're

18:14

going to talk to the spirit. Yes, right

18:16

now, Okay, let's go. Oh

18:19

this table. Yeah, it's made

18:21

with the house of George Colby, the

18:23

man who founded Cassadega. Yes,

18:26

of course his house burned down, and

18:28

of course we retrofitted the banister

18:31

into a table. What question

18:33

could you possibly have? It's your turn. We

18:36

hope you thought about who you wanted to hear

18:38

from from the great Beyond before you arrived.

18:41

Louis does do us the service of

18:43

introducing the three tables he's brought

18:45

with him. One of a pretty small

18:48

coffee table that falls far

18:50

below his I would say about six

18:52

ft five frame. One is

18:55

a medium sized TV dinner

18:57

table that your grandma would set her coffee

18:59

on, which tween episodes of soap operas.

19:02

And then there's this larger table, this

19:05

pale blue George Colby table

19:07

that will be using today, one

19:09

that has been made specifically to

19:12

Louis Gates's body's specifications,

19:15

and which his wife Marie can make

19:17

work as well as in

19:20

use the table to get in touch with the

19:22

ghosts. He says this of the George

19:24

Colby table, where I, in just

19:26

a couple of minutes will be speaking

19:29

with my dead brother. I need

19:31

one so I don't have to stoop down, you know. Louis

19:34

Gates gave a speech at Gala

19:36

Day in Cassadega just the day before

19:39

about an equally esoteric

19:41

spiritualist practice called spirit

19:44

trumpets, essentially an

19:46

older spiritualist tradition in

19:48

which spirits will make instruments

19:51

move and play. Today,

19:54

he tells us that the tables for

19:56

table tipping need to have three

19:58

legs for the Father, Son

20:01

and Holy Spirit. Something about three

20:03

legs just works, he says, and that any

20:05

table will do, but the bigger, bulkier

20:08

ones are his personal preference. He

20:11

says that he's blessed the space before

20:13

we entered. This involves his

20:15

saying a prayer in each corner of the

20:17

room to clear negative energy,

20:20

and being the one who said the prayer automatically

20:23

makes him the alpha of the workshop.

20:26

He is responsible for our spiritual

20:28

safety. Rooms can hold onto

20:30

energy positive and negative, he explains

20:33

to us, So you have to be very careful.

20:36

He uses the example of the

20:38

way that you can enter a space where

20:40

something horrible has happened and you

20:42

can somehow just feel it, feel

20:45

that something isn't right, or to

20:48

borrow an example of the room that we're

20:50

currently standing in, a hall where

20:52

there were fundraising dances during both

20:54

World Wars and where mediums

20:56

say they can hear music and

20:59

joyful foots steps while they're on nighttime

21:01

walks. It's not that these

21:03

spirits are haunting the space, he

21:05

tells us, it's the energy of

21:08

the event and things that happened

21:10

there, which means that

21:12

my virginity is haunting a

21:15

dirty hotel room in Annapolis,

21:17

Maryland. Actually, if you apply

21:19

this rule to any hotel room,

21:22

they become uninhabitable.

21:24

Anyways, Reverend Dr Lewis

21:26

says this, I've been doing this since

21:28

I was five years old. It took me years

21:30

to get in touch with all of this. He

21:33

says, this with the swagger I'll come to associate

21:35

him with, as he introduces the tables,

21:38

saying it takes years of practice

21:40

to get them to quote unquote fly

21:43

the way they do for him. Hell,

21:45

he says, even Marie has trouble

21:47

getting the tables going. Sometimes

21:49

sometimes their own cat has more success

21:52

getting the table to move than Marie, and

21:54

it's like, jeez, man, she's standing right

21:56

there after all. Reverend

21:58

Dr Lewis explains he's been practicing

22:01

mediumship to some degree for over

22:03

half a century, one of the only

22:06

people at the camp to be a generational

22:08

member of Spiritualism.

22:10

Yes, he says he's seen tables

22:13

levitate. Yes, he says

22:15

he hears the tables rattle around

22:17

he and Marie's house at night. He

22:19

points to one table and says he found

22:22

it rattling in the back of an antique

22:24

store and the dealer said, I don't

22:26

like that table. Something's not right with it,

22:28

and so Reverend Dr. Lewis bought it because

22:31

it was jumping out at him.

22:33

He's got the kind of charisma that makes

22:35

you glad that Spiritualism has

22:37

no interest in being a cult, because

22:40

this guy could sell a cult the

22:42

same way that the early Spiritualists

22:45

of the eighteen hundreds could sell

22:47

the religion. But we'll get

22:49

back to them

22:59

now that we've met the tables. The

23:01

table tip in class begins.

23:04

Reverend Dr Lewis asks for six

23:07

people to get up. They do

23:09

and get around the big wooden table

23:12

with Lewis and Marie, and

23:14

everyone is instructed to put

23:16

their hands on the edges of the

23:18

table very lightly, no

23:21

grip. The rest of us stay

23:23

on the perimeter of the circle

23:26

in our chairs as the group

23:28

of six begin to move the table

23:30

around the interior of the room,

23:33

and I don't know what to tell

23:35

you. After a second, the table,

23:38

which is huge, does

23:40

begin to move, and

23:43

it seems to kind of take the eight

23:45

people surrounding it to the left

23:47

side of the circle we've created

23:50

as the less initiated, like myself

23:52

and my friend look on kind

23:55

of in bafflement. Now,

23:57

I want to be clear, this isn't a table

23:59

movie, as in levitating,

24:02

This isn't a conjuring movie. It's

24:04

not this what's going on, ladies,

24:06

please remove your glove believe we're about to commuting

24:09

with the spirit. His

24:12

lips are red like blood from a coop

24:14

when you took his teeth,

24:16

a sharp black yours when you bit a coot.

24:19

And it's so cold and dark and wet

24:21

like the jungle, like tears. I

24:23

am crying. I am sorry. Fright,

24:25

father, find me, find

24:27

me, save me, Save me.

24:41

Uh. There was a clip from Penny dreadful.

24:43

But it is a table dragging

24:45

across the floor, not lifting,

24:48

but moving quickly and not appearing

24:50

to be pulled by anyone in particular.

24:54

And for skeptics listening, I

24:56

promised to take this class seriously.

24:59

But of course I'm watching Lewis

25:01

and Marie's forearms to

25:03

make sure that they're not flexing with

25:05

every movement that the table makes,

25:08

and it doesn't look that way. But okay,

25:11

they're both wearing long sleeves, and

25:13

maybe I'll have a better idea when my turn

25:15

around the table comes. For now,

25:18

all I know is that the six not

25:21

gates is are chasing the table

25:23

around as it lifts towards

25:25

its first victim, a woman

25:28

who has been here before. So

25:30

once the table stops, it tends

25:32

to tip towards one

25:35

person, and it sways

25:37

back in this jerky, seasick

25:40

kind of way while it waits

25:43

to make contact. So

25:45

Reverend Dr Lewis nods at

25:47

the woman the table is tipping towards,

25:49

saying, that's you, sweetheart.

25:53

And what takes place is this stressful

25:55

game of yes or no questions

25:58

that happens rapid fire. She's

26:00

a little nervous, but she tries an

26:03

easy question. Is this

26:05

spirit a man? The

26:07

table goes still, its legs go

26:09

back on the ground. That means no,

26:13

is this spirit? Uh?

26:16

Woman? The table leans

26:18

towards her. Yes, that means

26:20

yes, okay, is it her mother?

26:23

No? She thinks harder. The

26:25

other five people around the table are looking

26:27

at her intently. There is this kind

26:30

of pressure to perform when

26:32

the table is talking to you. If

26:34

you lose the rhythm of the thing, it

26:36

gets less exciting. So the woman thinks

26:38

fast. She says, is this

26:41

her biological mother? Interesting?

26:44

Now everyone in the room knows that she's

26:46

adopted. The table says

26:49

yes, yes, it's rocking back

26:51

and forth. That's an hiological

26:53

mother. So the woman nods, as Lewis

26:56

and Marie keeps staring at her

26:58

as if to say, what question

27:00

are you going to ask? Now? Uh?

27:03

The woman gets nervous ask

27:05

her a question, So the woman asks

27:08

the spirit are you okay?

27:10

And the table rocks back and forth.

27:13

Yes. The woman says, I

27:16

love you, and the table tips

27:18

towards her slowly. Louis

27:20

says, that's a hook. And

27:23

this woman who is talking

27:26

to her biological mother via

27:28

table says a little awkwardly,

27:32

oh, thanks, And

27:34

the table, as if sensing that things

27:36

are starting to get weird, goes

27:38

still. Everyone in the

27:41

room takes a breath. Was

27:43

that it

27:46

is? That all there is to a tipping table?

27:49

And after a second, the table takes

27:51

off again. It moves to the left, this

27:54

big fucking Quiji board, and

27:58

the group of six starts to follow

28:01

it again, and it starts all

28:03

over. My friend looks over

28:05

at me a little confused. She

28:08

mounts to me, was that

28:10

real? And as I sit here,

28:13

I feel more skeptical

28:16

than I was wanting to. It all feels

28:18

a little forced and performative.

28:20

But I'm not here to decide if ghosts

28:23

are real. I'm here to watch other

28:25

people decide if they think

28:27

ghosts are real. Many of the

28:29

table tipping interactions are similar

28:31

to this first one. There are people

28:34

who are a little nervous and struggle

28:36

to think of questions. There are people

28:38

who end up connecting with a spirit

28:41

other than the one they had clearly

28:43

been hoping to. There are

28:45

skeptics that were brought with believers

28:47

who are only taking it half seriously

28:50

and kind of slowing down the proceedings.

28:52

And there's a million Hi Grandma,

28:56

miss She's but

28:59

like the message they're resk that took place before

29:01

it. There are moments around the table

29:03

that are extremely intense and

29:06

even pull tears from people who

29:08

came here to talk to someone who they loved

29:10

and lost. Table

29:15

Tipping is something of a rarity

29:18

in Cassadega and in modern spiritualism

29:20

in general, and it makes sense that

29:22

a legacy spiritualists like Reverend

29:25

Dr Lewis Gates is the one to

29:27

show it to us by in large

29:29

physical mediumship like table

29:32

tipping and spirit trumpets

29:34

have been abandoned by spiritualists

29:37

over the years, but the majority

29:39

of mediums ratings in Cassadega

29:41

now being done intuitively

29:44

or only with the mind. I

29:46

mentioned this in our first episode, but because

29:48

there is such a misconception on this topic

29:51

even within Cassadega, mediums

29:54

trained in Cassadega, Florida

29:56

do not use tarot cards

29:58

and rarely use physical

30:01

tools at all. It's

30:03

not that they're banned by any means.

30:05

I mean, you can take an occasional

30:07

table tipping class like this. There

30:09

are things like spirit photography

30:12

walking tours marketed mainly at

30:14

tourists, that encourage you to walk around

30:16

with a camp sanctioned guide and capture

30:19

orbs on camera, but these

30:21

events are in the minority, and

30:24

Cassadega mediums have actively

30:26

distanced themselves from the tarot

30:28

card readers who operate in the camp,

30:31

particularly the ones who work

30:33

at the Cassadega Hotel where

30:36

I'm staying. Dot dot dot.

30:38

That's a drama for another day. But one

30:41

reason that spiritualists on the whole

30:43

seem to have distanced themselves from

30:46

larger physical demonstrations

30:48

over the years may have to do

30:50

with the extreme controversy that

30:53

surrounds some debunked methods

30:55

of the nineteenth century spiritualists.

30:58

Again that dichotomy. In the

31:00

world of sciences in the nineteenth century,

31:02

there was often this demand for

31:05

more, more contact,

31:07

more proof of life after death, a

31:10

demand that pushed early practices

31:12

like spirit wrappings and table tipping

31:15

even further towards things like

31:17

quote unquote spirit hands

31:20

that sitters could touch from the beyond, full

31:23

on body materializations,

31:26

levitation, spirit photography,

31:29

ectoplasmic mouth ejaculate.

31:32

I can't talk to you about that right

31:34

now. That's going to have to wait. But it's

31:36

as gross as it sounds. But

31:38

the more theatrical of a presentation,

31:41

generally the swifter it would

31:43

be debunked by skeptics,

31:45

and so to protect their own religion

31:47

and beliefs, most mediums

31:49

today elected to tap into spirit

31:52

using their minds and no

31:54

clunky objects. That

31:56

is to say, it's interestingly old

31:58

school that friend Dr Lewis Kates

32:01

does teach physical mediumship as

32:03

he does and also engages

32:06

in trance mediumship, because

32:08

these tend to be the elements of spiritualism

32:11

that draw far more skepticism.

32:14

Here's a quick smattering of early examples

32:16

of physical mediums getting debunked.

32:20

These examples come from Barbara Weisberg's

32:22

biography of the Fox Sisters

32:24

Talking to the Dead, as well

32:27

as the book Calling the Spirits

32:29

a History of Sciences by

32:31

Lisa Morton. Early spiritualists

32:34

Ira and William Davenport,

32:36

the teens seancers I call

32:38

him, began as stage magicians

32:40

before pivoting to spiritualist seances,

32:43

where they were eventually caught performing tricks

32:46

with elaborate spirit cabinets

32:48

where they'd be tied up and shoved inside,

32:51

only for quote unquote spirits

32:54

to begin playing musical instruments

32:56

while they were While Ira

32:58

was said to be a practicing spiritualist,

33:01

he also sat Harry Houdini down

33:03

and showed him how he and his brother pulled

33:05

off the spirit cabinet illusion shortly

33:08

before he died. Next up

33:10

one of history's most famous mediums,

33:13

the Scotsman D. D. Home, who

33:15

was often referred to as a medium

33:18

who never got busted, an impressive

33:20

figure who was said to be able to levitate

33:23

and produce physical manifestations

33:26

of spirits, and he never was

33:28

publicly exposed for sure, but

33:30

there were several rumors and accounts

33:33

that detailed things like a

33:35

found fake spirit hand,

33:37

or in a well circulated rumor

33:40

about a seance attended by writers

33:42

Robert and Elizabeth Browning, a

33:45

glowing appendage in the dark was

33:47

grabbed by Robert Browning and

33:49

revealed to be Holmes's own foot.

33:52

And finally, the first popular spirit

33:54

photographer, William Mummler, who

33:57

was brought to court for fraud, although

33:59

to his at it after three weeks of

34:01

testimony, including P. T. Barnum

34:04

testifying against him, that's

34:06

really saying something. No one

34:09

could definitively show how Mumbler

34:11

had created the spirit photographs, and

34:13

so he went on to take one of the most famous

34:16

of all time, one of Mary

34:19

Todd Lincoln and what appears to be

34:21

the spirit of her assassinated

34:23

husband. Maybe you've heard of him.

34:26

Now, Some of what I just described still

34:28

does remain in the murky world

34:30

of allegation. So physical

34:33

mediumship, whether you believe in it or

34:35

not, it's riskier.

34:38

Just because there were smoking mirrors

34:40

demonstrably at play in the examples

34:42

I just gave doesn't necessarily mean

34:45

that the people doing it didn't

34:47

believe or didn't think

34:49

that these things weren't possible. I

34:51

mean, does the priest in a confession box

34:54

really believe that they are providing

34:56

divine forgiveness? Probably

34:59

not always, but often

35:02

when it comes to things like this, literal

35:04

magic tricks, a wet glove, a slipped

35:06

knot to play spirit instruments. I

35:09

mean, it's very hard to defend, but some

35:12

accusations of fraud are more difficult

35:14

to parse. And I also

35:16

include the Fox Sisters,

35:19

who we are overdue to check in

35:21

on. So let's go back to

35:23

the late eighteen forties. After

35:25

becoming locally famous in upstate

35:28

New York for spirit rappings in their

35:30

own home said to be from a famous

35:33

murdered shoe peddler named Charles

35:35

Rosna, the sisters Maggie

35:37

and Kate Fox, both still

35:40

children, moved to the city

35:42

of Rochester with their older sister

35:44

Leah, herself a single mother,

35:47

to begin the process of becoming

35:49

public religious figures.

35:52

I mean, can you blame a kid for wanting to

35:55

so? Where do we leave our

35:58

gals? The Fox sister oh,

36:01

right, per their account, they're having

36:03

the ship slapped out of them by the ghosts

36:05

of Rochester in the summer

36:07

of eight I mean, my

36:09

God, the way that Leah

36:12

Fox, the eldest, describes Slappy

36:14

the ghost my nickname, not

36:16

hers. I will not give her credit

36:18

for my amazing ghost nickname,

36:21

but the way that she describes this malevolent

36:24

spirit in her book The Missing

36:26

Link is very intense. The

36:29

youngest sister, Kate Fox, was

36:31

in particular targeted and tormented,

36:34

at one point, appearing to be slapped to the

36:36

point that she was unconscious,

36:38

only to come to reciting poetry

36:41

saying to be with Christ is

36:43

better far. This stage

36:45

of the Fox sisters lives is extremely

36:48

difficult to verify, in part because

36:50

the presence of spirit in the world, like

36:53

all things I've become hyperfecated on, pends

36:56

to be pretty difficult to speak of

36:58

with any sort of jectivity.

37:01

I firmly believe that this is a topic

37:03

that's almost impossible to

37:05

come at with any clear sort of mind,

37:08

because a person's perspective on the

37:10

afterlife is usually connected

37:12

to deeply personal parts of themselves,

37:14

how they grew up, their relationship

37:17

or lack thereof, with faith, people

37:20

that they've lost, and the people

37:22

that they've lost beliefs. I

37:24

will say that Leah Fox's accounts

37:27

in particular are tough for me.

37:29

She functioned not only as a Fox

37:32

medium during her career, seriously,

37:35

just give her a year or so, but Leah

37:37

also worked in the unofficial capacity

37:40

of Maggie and Kith's manager, part

37:42

time guardian, and family

37:45

myth maker, who would soon be taking

37:47

their show on the road. Like

37:49

a book of letters that Maggie would publish

37:52

later in her life. The contents of Leah's

37:54

book was heavily contested

37:56

by her own sisters later in

37:58

their lives, as the relationship between

38:01

the three of Margaret Fox's daughters

38:03

exploded both their personal

38:05

lives and their religion in

38:07

a very public way,

38:10

a moment for Leah here. Barbara

38:12

Weissberg does an amazing job in her biography

38:15

of Maggie and Kate Fox of showing

38:17

all sides of their sister Leah, including

38:20

the hard to deal with sides. In

38:23

her day, Leo would be considered some

38:25

sort of saint le mother figure

38:27

in the spiritualist movement, as the

38:29

public opinion of her younger sisters tended

38:32

to wildly fluctuate as their lives

38:34

went on, But there's indication pretty

38:36

early on of Leah having some

38:38

volatile tendencies. One

38:41

example in particular stands out regarding

38:43

how Leah treated her own daughter in

38:45

these early months of spiritualism.

38:48

A local man hoping to make contact with

38:50

his daughter who was thought to have been murdered

38:52

by her own husband but whose

38:54

killer was acquitted, met

38:56

with Maggie, Kate, Leah, and

38:59

Leah's teenage daughter Lizzie for

39:01

a seance. So they conducted

39:03

this early version of a seance with all the sisters

39:05

present, but no spirit raps

39:07

came, and Leah began to brate

39:10

and blame her own daughter for

39:12

the raps not materializing. Lizzie

39:15

began to cry and it became clear

39:17

that she had expressed after witnessing

39:19

her niece Kate pass out seemingly

39:22

possessed by Slappy the ghost, that

39:24

she wished that the spirits would go away.

39:27

Oh no, she said, she didn't like

39:29

when her twelve year old niece was possessed.

39:33

What a bit. But

39:35

in this public forum, Leah demanded

39:37

that Lizzie apologize, humiliating

39:39

her in front of her own family and strangers,

39:42

and Lizzie sobbed quote I

39:45

was sincere. I don't know how to repent

39:47

unquote. Finally she relented

39:50

to her mother's verbal accosting and

39:52

sunk to her knees and apologized

39:54

to the spirits, and suddenly

39:57

the rapping began again. Shortly

40:00

after, Lea sent Lizzie away to live

40:02

with her father for over a year in Illinois,

40:05

banishing your team daughter, not

40:07

very saintly behavior. The

40:10

summer of eighteen forty eight found the

40:12

Fox sisters slowly discovering their

40:14

place within Rochester society,

40:16

first by making an important connection

40:19

through befriending influential couple Amy

40:22

and Isaac Post. There's

40:24

probably a whole other podcast to be had about

40:26

these two. They were radical Quaker

40:28

abolitionists and feminists.

40:31

They held organizational meetings

40:33

for local abolition advocates.

40:35

They provided safe harbor for fugitive

40:37

slaves. After the fugitive slave

40:39

Act of eighteen fifty made it so that

40:42

white Southerners could capture any

40:44

black person on free soil and

40:46

claimed them as their slave, and the

40:48

federal government played a much more active

40:51

role in the recapturing of enslaved

40:53

people. They were also close friends

40:56

of Frederick Douglas of Susan

40:58

b. Anthony of Sojourner Truth,

41:01

and after realizing that

41:03

the Spiritualist kids who kept popping

41:05

up in the news were actually kids

41:08

from their own neighborhood, the Posts

41:10

became some of the first true believers

41:13

in the fledgling Spiritualism

41:15

religion. Like many early

41:17

and subsequent adopters, it's likely

41:20

that their willingness to give it a chance was

41:22

at least in part motivated

41:24

by the fact that they had lost a child

41:27

in the past, one that they very

41:29

much wanted to make contact with from

41:32

beyond the grave. Maggie

41:34

and Kate, still kids themselves,

41:36

were more than happy to oblige. The

41:39

summer of eighteen forty eight was

41:41

huge in Rochester, New York.

41:44

In July of that year, the girls lived

41:47

a stone's throw from the Seneca Falls

41:49

Convention, the first major women's

41:51

right convention in the United States

41:54

history. Amy Post was in

41:56

attendance along with Frederick

41:58

Douglas and Elizabeth Katie's anton.

42:00

I won't rehash the event for you here.

42:03

There are plenty of places where it's been

42:05

done far more effectively, and I

42:07

will link them in the episode description. But

42:09

the short story is that the Seneca Falls

42:11

Convention Hicks started the first wave

42:14

of American feminism, while

42:16

laying bare the inequities within

42:18

this movement, particularly between

42:21

white women and women of color. But

42:23

another topic whispered around this

42:25

convention was that of

42:28

spirit communication. The Fox

42:30

Sisters were not present at the Seneca

42:32

Falls Convention, but they were sort of

42:35

there in spirit.

42:37

No I can't, I'm bailing on the joke. The

42:39

Sisters, either in a move of smart

42:41

networking or smart networking

42:43

from spirit, were some of the

42:46

first to predict that Frederick Douglas's

42:48

newspaper, The North Star would

42:50

be a success, the first

42:52

of many interactions with Douglas that

42:54

indicate that while he wasn't a full

42:57

convert to spiritualism, he was

42:59

deeply interested in it and many

43:01

of the people who supported it. Barbara

43:04

Weisberg describes it like this in her

43:06

biography of the Fox Sisters,

43:08

called Talking to the Dead quote

43:11

many of those in attendance, such as

43:13

Frederick Douglas and Elizabeth Katie Stanton,

43:15

had also heard about the possibility of

43:18

spirit communication through their Rochester

43:20

acquaintances, and others soon learned

43:22

of it. Wrapped were reported

43:24

to have struck the very table at which

43:26

Stanton and her colleague Lucretia

43:28

Mott had drafted the Conventions

43:31

resolutions unquote, as

43:33

it would for their entire career. The whiffs

43:36

and accusations of Humbug

43:38

as it were, followed talk of spiritualism

43:41

wherever it went, But many progressives

43:43

who were strong proponents of science

43:46

were actually inclined to advocate

43:48

for spiritualism in a time where it felt

43:50

like with some study and some time,

43:53

anything could be proven as

43:55

true. And in the late eighteen forties,

43:58

negative press was no man for

44:00

the public's curiosity in spirit

44:02

communication, either in the

44:05

interest of science or as

44:07

would be true time and time again.

44:09

Into the very recent past, there

44:12

was a lot of death and a

44:14

lot of people that they're grieving

44:16

wanted to get in touch with in

44:18

addition to the normal culprits. In a time

44:20

where life expectancy still hovered

44:23

somewhere around forty a cholera

44:25

epidemic swept Europe and the US

44:27

in eighteen forty nine, bringing

44:30

with it a new crowd of grieving

44:32

who were eager for closure with relatives

44:35

and loved ones they had suddenly lost.

44:37

By the end of the decade, Hate, Maggie

44:40

and Leah were notorious

44:42

communicators with spirit In

44:45

eighteen forty nine, Leah had promoted

44:47

herself from manager Mommy

44:49

to Manager Mommy Medium

44:51

Live Left Love with some trademark

44:54

Fox Drama. The Spirits are

44:56

said to have threatened to leave the Sisters

44:58

permanently during the fall of eighteen

45:00

forty nine if the Sisters didn't

45:02

comply with a very specific

45:04

desire of spirits that

45:07

wish to take their show on

45:09

the road, and after a little bit

45:11

of rehearsal, they did just that.

45:14

In November of eighteen forty nine,

45:16

the Sisters performed in the

45:18

largest theater in Rochester, New

45:20

York, officially taking

45:23

spiritualism to the next

45:25

level. November eighteen

45:28

forty nine. Price of admittance cents

45:31

fifty cents amidst one man and two ladies

45:34

Good to Know. Four people

45:36

attend in all, including Amy Post,

45:39

lending the events some bonus credibility.

45:42

Kate Fox remained in the audience for

45:44

the demonstration, which was attended

45:46

by both the curious and the

45:48

skeptical, and Maggie came on

45:51

stage in a pale blue dress.

45:53

In all likelihood, those in attendants

45:55

would have had some familiarity

45:58

with the concept of the supernat troll. Outside

46:00

of Christianity, there were well

46:03

known figures who navigated this area,

46:05

people like Emmanuel Swedenborg,

46:08

the Swedish Swedenborgish

46:10

philosopher turned Christian mystic from

46:12

the late sixteen hundreds. There was also

46:15

Anton Mesmer, the German physician

46:17

and friend of Mozart, who theorized

46:20

about quote unquote animal

46:22

magnetism, which stated that

46:24

there was a super fine, invisible

46:26

fluid in the body that could

46:28

be amplified. More recently, there

46:31

was the Poughkeepsie seer Andrew

46:33

Jackson Davis, who had revived interest

46:36

in clairvoyance in New York, and interestingly

46:38

enough, the whole that the table tipping class I

46:40

took in Cassadega is named after

46:43

him. But these

46:45

figures were all grown men, many

46:47

of them well educated. None of

46:49

these figures were as underestimated

46:51

or disrespected as a teenage

46:54

girl as ordinary seeming

46:56

as Maggie Fox. After

46:58

a lecture from the journalist who had chronicled

47:00

the events at the Hydesville House, Eliab

47:03

Capron. Maggie entered

47:05

with Leah Fox, who was now

47:07

claiming mediumship herself. To

47:10

the shock of the audience, the spirit

47:12

raps came and

47:15

the crowd was immediately split.

47:17

Many were just as blown away as the

47:19

people who would come to the Hydesville House, but

47:22

the skeptics organized quickly. When

47:24

the demonstration was complete, and

47:26

by all accounts, Maggie pulled it off,

47:29

the audience grew restless and

47:31

in the room demanded that there

47:34

be a committee of five men assigned

47:36

to investigate the phenomena, and

47:39

nominated them before they let anyone

47:41

leave. The Foxes did not

47:44

see this coming, understandably, but

47:46

the newly formed committee demanded that the sisters

47:49

submit themselves to testing the

47:51

next morning, which they

47:53

did at the Sons of Temperance

47:55

Hall in Rochester the next day,

47:57

with the committee declaring that there would be

47:59

a second show at Corinthian

48:01

Hall that night to reveal the results.

48:05

This time, and even bigger crowd

48:07

arrived. Caprine published an

48:09

account of night to along with a fellow

48:11

journalist. So consider the source,

48:13

they are biased in the Fox sisters

48:15

favor But the long and short of it

48:18

was that the committee had not been able

48:20

to bust them, even after reportedly

48:23

putting their hands on the feet and joints

48:25

of the girls as the rappings took

48:27

place, And that still wasn't

48:30

enough. A second investigation

48:33

was called for, followed by a

48:35

third night of shows to indicate

48:37

the results. This committee

48:39

was even physically harsher on

48:42

Maggie and Leah. Their feet were

48:44

bound and their dresses were groped,

48:46

while the committee demanded that the sisters

48:48

summoned the wrappings. And again

48:51

the committee was unable to find

48:53

fraud. So on the third night

48:56

of shows, yet another committee

48:58

was called for. And it's like,

49:00

guys, it's eighteen forty

49:03

eight. We've got bigger fish to fry here. But this

49:05

time the committee called for would

49:07

be only composed of women, so

49:09

that the Fox sisters could be physically

49:11

humiliated even further.

49:14

Barbara Weisberg describes the inspection

49:17

like this quote. With

49:19

the sister's reluctant consent, a

49:22

subsidiary committee of ladies took

49:24

them into a separate room, then stripped

49:26

and searched them, examining both

49:29

quote their persons and clothing unquote,

49:32

in search of noisy devices such as

49:34

leaden balls mortified.

49:36

Both sisters wept through much of

49:38

their ordeal, until their sobs

49:40

reached such a pitch that Amy Post

49:43

burst into the room and brought the investigation

49:46

to a halt. Unquote. Now,

49:48

no matter how you feel, this is a fucking

49:51

Guantanamo style physical humiliation

49:54

of two women, one of whom is

49:56

a minor. Maggie did not want

49:58

to return to corint i in Hall after

50:01

this abusive third investigation, but

50:03

Amy Post convinced both her and

50:05

Leah to attend in protest of

50:08

how they'd been treated. And again the

50:10

committee found no fraud,

50:13

and the Fox Sisters Kate included,

50:15

were now considered legit enough

50:17

to continue their work, but at

50:20

what cost. Understandably

50:22

freaked out by how the public had demanded

50:24

to strip search them multiple days

50:27

in a row, the sisters spent the next

50:29

stretch of time perfecting their spirit

50:31

rapping seances in Rochester

50:34

in privately arranged sessions.

50:36

An interesting shift here is that they

50:38

now charged a fee for these

50:41

seances. Frederick

50:43

Douglas was said to frequently attendees.

50:45

He once got so frustrated that it was taking

50:48

so long for the ghosts to show up that

50:50

he called the display atrocious

50:53

and apologize to Amy Post about it

50:55

in a letter written later. Good stuff,

50:58

And yeah, that's a really funny story,

51:00

but it lends itself to the predicament

51:03

that the Foxes and the

51:05

newly minted mediums who were beginning

51:07

to crop up all around the country and

51:09

even overseas, found themselves

51:11

in. People sitting with mediums

51:14

wanted instant ratification,

51:16

They wanted to talk to specific spirits,

51:19

and in some cases it seems like

51:22

more than anything else, they wanted

51:24

a bit of a show. And depending on your

51:26

perspective, no one could put

51:28

on a show or a ritual white

51:31

like a spiritualist medium could.

51:42

All right, we're back in Cassada, back

51:44

in the Andrew Jackson Davis building.

51:47

Yes, that Andrew Jackson Davis,

51:49

the Poughkeepsie seer himself well

51:52

spotted. Group after group are

51:54

going up to the table in

51:56

our table tipping class, and I feel

51:58

so self conscious waiting again,

52:01

wondering if there's any chance that

52:03

Lewis and Marie Gates already know who

52:05

I am, And does that mean that they could

52:07

just take a stab at who I would want to contact.

52:10

That's a classic fraudulent medium

52:12

technique the hot reading,

52:15

meaning that a medium would research

52:17

who you are before they arrive and

52:20

then miraculously bring

52:22

through relevant information across

52:25

the room and around the table. One

52:27

old man connects with his father and

52:29

surprises himself by starting

52:31

to cry. Another woman

52:33

comes in with a very specific agenda.

52:36

She connects with her father's spirit and then

52:38

launches into a hyper specific

52:40

line of questioning. She says she

52:43

loves him and misses him, but she's

52:45

still mad at him about that

52:47

thing, and tells him on the table

52:50

that she still doesn't forgive him.

52:52

She then goes up a second time a little later

52:54

on to speak with her mother's spirit

52:57

and seems to connect, bursting

52:59

into tears and asking if she

53:01

was wrong not to forgive her father. It's

53:04

intense, it's specific, it's

53:06

technically cheaper than therapy. And

53:09

then finally it's my turn. I

53:11

go up with a group and have a vague

53:13

plan of what I'm going to do, try

53:16

to make contact with one of my dead grandma's

53:19

and hope for the best. I'm pretty nervous

53:21

at this point because not only is this something

53:23

I very much want to believe in, I

53:26

also feel very aware of

53:28

wanting Louis and Marie to like

53:31

me. I'm being appraised here to

53:33

some extent observed by the mediums

53:35

of Cassadega, and so I'm both interested

53:38

and performing being interested.

53:41

It's like being on a date, except the means

53:43

to the end is the great beyond and

53:45

the approval of a small community of

53:48

aging mediums and healers. So

53:50

we stand around the table, me right next

53:53

to Lewis. He's huge and

53:55

feels huger when I'm next to him, And

53:57

so when the table takes off, I

54:00

kind of hope that it will all suddenly become

54:03

clear, something like I

54:05

knew it. He's dragging the table or

54:07

Marie is dragging the table. Something

54:09

very obvious is going on. But

54:11

it doesn't seem that way at all, And

54:13

in fact, the gates Is seem to intentionally

54:16

keep their touch on the table pretty light.

54:19

But Lewis narrates the experience like a sportscaster

54:22

as the table takes off and leaned

54:24

to the mom across the table from me. Standing

54:27

around the table is a completely

54:30

immersive experience. It's

54:32

nothing like watching from the perimeter.

54:35

You smell everyone, smell everyone's

54:38

breath. You feel very self conscious

54:40

about how tightly or not tightly.

54:42

You're gripping the table like am I

54:44

dragging it? Am I a part of

54:47

the problem? Are we confirmation

54:49

biasing this table around? Or

54:51

is this real? But I don't

54:53

have time to think about it because suddenly the

54:55

table is tipping towards me.

55:00

So I start to speak to the dead. Are

55:02

you a woman? Please

55:04

say you're a woman. I don't know what to do if you're not a

55:06

woman. The table goes still,

55:09

that's a no, it's not a woman. I'm fucked.

55:12

I'm so fucked. So I asked, is

55:14

this not a woman? Because yes

55:16

or no questions can be really gendered. But

55:19

the table moves again. The answer is

55:21

yes, it's a male spirit

55:24

talking to me, a dead man.

55:26

I'm pretty lucky. I haven't really lost

55:29

many men in my life, Is

55:31

it, Papa? No? Is

55:34

it will no fun?

55:36

I'm blowing it. No one has gotten this many

55:39

nose in a row in the entire time

55:41

this has been going on. So I panic

55:43

and I ask, is this Matthew?

55:48

And the table starts to nod yes.

55:51

And that's really weird because I don't technically

55:54

know Matthew. My mom

55:56

had two miscarriages and we

55:58

were raised to think of them as is our

56:00

siblings, and to talk to them.

56:03

Even our middle names are their names,

56:05

Matt and Beth, and I used to like

56:07

draw these weird pictures of what I thought

56:09

my cool teenage siblings would look

56:11

like if they were alive. They're

56:14

not people I've actually met. They're kind of like these

56:16

characters to me, I guess, but

56:19

it made my parents feel better that me spoke

56:21

life into an experience that have been

56:23

so painful for them. But

56:26

I ask is this Matt? And the answer

56:28

comes back as yes, which leads

56:30

me to what would I say to someone

56:32

who I've never met and is

56:34

mainly the object of my weird

56:36

child fan fiction. So

56:39

I think for a second and I

56:41

asked, are you

56:44

good? I sound like

56:46

a total dumbass, but he says yes. The

56:48

table rocks back and forth, and I

56:50

swear to God, I'm not touching it. I

56:52

ask is he with bethany

56:56

my other siblings who passed away? The

56:58

answer is yes. Has he been watching

57:01

me? Yes? And I feel Louis

57:03

gates his eyes on me and he says, there's

57:06

a man from your work here too. He says,

57:08

you're funny. This kind of

57:10

stops me in my tracks because this

57:12

doesn't really track for me at all. I

57:14

can't think of a man who I've worked with

57:17

who's died that i'd be close enough

57:19

with to say that I'm funny. But

57:22

Louis Gates does know that I'm a

57:24

comedian. You know, it's not inconceivable

57:26

that he could be taking an educated

57:29

guess on something that I would want

57:31

to hear. But I shift my focus

57:33

back to the table. I'm talking to Matt,

57:35

and I'm really feeling the pressure to stick

57:38

the landing on this conversation.

57:40

But I can't think of anything, and I hear

57:43

myself blurting out, were you upset

57:45

about what grandma did? And

57:47

look, listener, what my grandma did or did

57:49

not do is none of your business. But I

57:52

was curious if I could communicate

57:54

with him what he thought. But

57:56

the table goes still. The answer

57:59

is no, and Marie Gates

58:01

looks at me and says, they don't

58:03

bring anger into the spirit realm. They

58:05

really don't. And then

58:07

the table takes off again. My

58:10

turn is over and my friend begins

58:13

a stilted, nervous conversation

58:15

with her grandfather she only met a few times

58:17

as a kid. And that's my first experience

58:20

speaking with the dead maybe.

58:23

This session continues for two hours,

58:25

and it's strange but not unpleasant,

58:28

except for this one moment that sticks

58:30

out to me. A man who was

58:32

sitting across the circle from me had

58:35

a tearful yes or no conversation

58:37

with his father about an hour

58:40

before on the table, and

58:42

he hadn't said much sense, even as

58:44

most of us were whispering with our friends

58:46

or the regulars to the camp laugh

58:49

and catch up with each other. But this

58:51

guy has been keeping to himself,

58:53

looking down at his hands that are kind of shaking.

58:56

He wants to believe that he's talking to

58:58

his dead father Bade, but

59:00

he clearly has doubts, and

59:03

finally he breaks and looks

59:05

to Louis and makes a proposition.

59:08

He asks them, can the two

59:10

of them get on the table, one

59:12

on one and have a conversation with

59:15

his father. He's half

59:17

desperately wanting to make contact and

59:19

half wanting to reassure himself

59:21

that there is some chance that all of this might

59:24

be real. He tells

59:26

us all that he was with his father when

59:28

he died, and breaks down

59:30

here for a minute because it was just a couple

59:33

of weeks ago, then bounces back.

59:35

He continues, saying his father was

59:38

extremely Christian when he was

59:40

alive, while he was

59:42

more open to alternatives

59:45

like spiritualism. That's

59:47

why he wanted the one on one on the table.

59:50

He wanted to ask his dad what

59:52

he thought about the afterlife and

59:54

whether it's squared with what he very

59:57

firmly believed when he was alive.

59:59

And now I'm watching like a sports

1:00:02

commentator, like how is Lewis

1:00:04

going to handle a request this

1:00:06

direct? These interactions can be

1:00:08

difficult to watch because here

1:00:11

is a man who is clearly in pain

1:00:13

and seeking out answers that could

1:00:16

very well be unknowable, and

1:00:18

it's one person's job Louis

1:00:20

Gates to assure us that they

1:00:23

are knowable. Is this okay?

1:00:26

I I don't know. It depends on

1:00:28

so many things, On if you believe

1:00:31

in it, on if the person is

1:00:33

profiting from it, which it doesn't seem

1:00:35

really like this camp is on whether

1:00:37

the medium believes in what they're doing.

1:00:40

Louis definitely does

1:00:42

not take the man up on the one on

1:00:44

one table request. Instead,

1:00:47

he says that there is a period of adjustment

1:00:50

in the spirit realm in a way that

1:00:52

almost sounds matrix e, but he says

1:00:54

that people in spirit go to a place

1:00:57

where they feel comfort and acceptance.

1:01:00

He says, it's possible that this guy's father

1:01:03

is able to attend Christian ceremonies

1:01:05

in the spirit realm, and enough

1:01:07

time hasn't passed for the deceased

1:01:10

dad to understand the real

1:01:12

truth of what being in spirit

1:01:15

is. The guy doesn't know what to

1:01:17

say. He doesn't push Reverend

1:01:19

Dr. Lewis further, and Louis

1:01:21

takes the opportunity to share a personal

1:01:24

anecdote, revealing that his father

1:01:26

was a Baptist priest who firmly believed

1:01:29

in what he preached, and that his

1:01:31

mother was a spiritualist and that's

1:01:33

whose path Lewis decided to follow.

1:01:36

Louis continued saying that even

1:01:38

in the spirit realm, his father

1:01:41

retained his Baptist beliefs,

1:01:43

but that they spoke together often. He

1:01:45

even goes on walks in Cassadega

1:01:48

with his deceased father and

1:01:51

at this the man seems

1:01:53

comforted or maybe

1:01:55

he's just stumped, and that's the whole

1:01:57

class. Lewis releases us through

1:02:00

the gift shop, but tells us before we

1:02:02

go that you don't need to buy a lot of stuff

1:02:04

to be a spiritualist. And actually, you

1:02:06

shouldn't buy a lot of stuff to be a spiritualist.

1:02:09

All you need is a couple of courts crystals,

1:02:11

he says, and a lot of practice. And

1:02:14

then he laughs and he gestures to the

1:02:16

door and says this by

1:02:18

whatever you want, though, and

1:02:20

we do, and

1:02:23

so ends my journey in the

1:02:26

art of Cassadagan table tipping.

1:02:28

After we leave, my friend wants to provide

1:02:30

me with a true, authentic Floridian

1:02:33

experience, so we get subs

1:02:36

from Publics, which is a grocery

1:02:38

store for the uninitiated. It's

1:02:40

a go to that she coaches me through ordering,

1:02:42

and we sit and we talk about

1:02:44

the tables. I asked her how she

1:02:46

felt about the whole experience, and she says,

1:02:49

she isn't really sure what to believe,

1:02:51

but she was deeply affected

1:02:53

by the people who really felt they'd

1:02:56

made a connection to a recently lost

1:02:58

loved one and expressed

1:03:00

some embarrassment and asking her dead

1:03:02

grandmother if she should text her ax

1:03:04

again. It was like the table was

1:03:07

screaming, don't do it,

1:03:09

and its legs like clattered to the

1:03:12

ground, and it was incredible

1:03:14

comedic timing on the part of spirit

1:03:17

or the table, or Reverend Dr

1:03:19

Lewis, or some kind of combination

1:03:22

of the three. She had a good time,

1:03:24

but she has no idea what to

1:03:26

make of it, and I share the

1:03:29

story of the Fox Sisters with

1:03:31

her because as I've been putting this show

1:03:33

together, I find myself telling my

1:03:35

family and friends the story

1:03:38

of spiritualism pretty often, because

1:03:40

that's what most religions are. It's a series

1:03:43

of stories. Stories you believe

1:03:45

in, stories you attach moral

1:03:47

significance to, and so on. But

1:03:50

after a while of doing this, I

1:03:52

realized that I was doing something

1:03:54

a little bizarre. I was always

1:03:56

sharing the same story, the story

1:03:59

of the Foxes. There's the story of

1:04:01

my experience in Cassadega,

1:04:03

But the way that I was framing it very

1:04:06

much dependent on the person I was talking

1:04:08

to. The people I knew who had

1:04:10

faith as a part of their lives. I

1:04:13

tended to frame the story of the Fox

1:04:15

Sisters as a religious story,

1:04:18

and they reacted to it with more reverence.

1:04:21

But if I told this same story

1:04:23

framed as something a little

1:04:25

weird that got popular in the nineteenth century

1:04:28

also true, people reacted

1:04:30

very very differently. It was

1:04:32

funnier, it was more bizarre,

1:04:35

but it's the same exact story.

1:04:38

So far, Ghost Church has been a lot

1:04:40

of me taking you through my early

1:04:43

experiences in spiritualism

1:04:45

through my eyes, and to

1:04:48

be quite honest, after this table tipping

1:04:50

class, I found myself kind of struggling

1:04:52

more than ever on how much

1:04:55

I was willing to believe, which

1:04:57

was a surprise to me. When I arrived in

1:05:00

Sadega, I honestly thought I would

1:05:02

become more and more secure

1:05:04

in feeling connected with the spiritualist

1:05:06

faith. But a couple of days in and

1:05:09

I was very much struggling, and

1:05:11

more than anything else, I wanted to know how the mediums

1:05:14

who practice at the camp now were

1:05:16

able to find faith like

1:05:18

that. So next week we're going to hear

1:05:21

from four members of the Cassadega

1:05:23

community and get a feeling for how they

1:05:25

became the modern spiritualists,

1:05:28

as well as learning tragic ending to

1:05:30

the story of the Fox Sisters, the

1:05:32

first to be faithful to the religion

1:05:35

or were they next

1:05:37

week on Ghost Church. Ghost

1:05:42

Church is a Cool Zone Media production created,

1:05:45

written and hosted by me Jamie

1:05:47

Loftus special thanks to Robert Evans

1:05:49

for voicing the Reverend Dr Lewis

1:05:51

Gates. The show is produced by so E

1:05:53

Lichterman, edited by Ian Johnson.

1:05:56

Our theme song is by Speedy or

1:05:58

Tease That's CD Klea, Andy

1:06:01

Loholt, Audries, Whitesides and Joey

1:06:03

Dubeck. Music is by Zoe

1:06:06

Blade m

1:06:10

hm hm