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0:41

Welcome back to Girlboss Radio. I'm your

0:43

host, Avery, and the founder and CEO of

0:45

Bloom, a workplace design consultancy and a

0:47

firm believer that work should work for all

0:50

of us. Today, I'm joined by two friends of mine

0:52

who you might know, Jillian Harris and Sarah

0:54

Nicole Landry of The Birth Papaya. These

0:57

women have built multimillion dollar brands and

0:59

gained millions of followers because of their

1:01

unfiltered authenticity. They talk

1:03

openly about mental health, motherhood, and body

1:05

image. And believe it or not, I met both

1:07

of these incredible women via IG.

1:10

So this is your sign to slide into the DMs

1:12

of the women that you admire. You might get a new friend

1:15

or two out of it. We chat about first

1:17

jobs, the expectations versus reality

1:19

of being a full-time content creator and

1:22

why they continue to create when algorithms

1:24

and internet trolls are stacked against them. Let's

1:27

get

1:27

into it.

1:34

I am so excited

1:36

to have this conversation today. I've invited

1:38

two of my friends, Jillian

1:40

and Sarah, to join us.

1:42

How are you both doing?

1:44

I'm doing great today. Actually, we're recording

1:46

on a Monday and I don't know, it's like that start

1:48

of the week. I don't know what I want

1:51

to do podcast. I love Mondays. How about you Jillian?

1:53

Yeah, likewise, the sunny day. It was a good weekend.

1:55

I'm feeling good. I've been prioritizing

1:58

myself for the first time in like. five

2:00

years. So life is, I can't complain about

2:02

too much today. Catch me later on

2:04

on Thursday and we'll see what I have to say.

2:06

Yeah. And I've noticed that shift

2:09

in you, Jillian, like I know that you've been

2:11

making more of an active effort to prioritize

2:13

yourself and your time. And I love to

2:15

see it. I think that is something that I've been feeling

2:18

pretty inspired by.

2:20

I mean, I can't get aligned with Jillian and

2:22

her cold plunges, but I love a hot shower.

2:25

Meditation and all this like time for yourself, it just feels

2:27

like such a privilege to have it these days because everything

2:30

is so stacked. I had a friend who suggested

2:32

that I start doing audio

2:34

in the shower so that I have meditated time

2:37

in the shower because I'm already doing it and I'm

2:39

already isolated away from my phone,

2:41

but I could have something going on so that I can dedicate

2:44

that time. And that just like blew my mind

2:46

open. So I feel like I'm actually using the time

2:48

effectively because that's where we're at.

2:50

And I could say forever that it's the job,

2:53

it's the work, it's who I am as a human being. If I

2:55

have something, I'll fill it. And also there's four

2:57

kids and like a family in a household to run. It's

2:59

a lot.

3:00

What I learned is that you can meditate

3:03

in many different ways. I always assumed that meditation

3:05

was like sitting on a pillow and breathing

3:07

deeply and listening to really calming music. But

3:10

like you can meditate by looking at a candle, looking

3:12

at fire. So something that I do every Friday,

3:14

I burn a lot of stuff in my backyard.

3:16

It's like my thing. It's burned

3:19

shit Fridays. Oh my God.

3:21

I love this. I don't

3:25

want to burn shit Friday. I'm curious.

3:28

Like what were you doing before your

3:30

life changed

3:30

forever by reality TV?

3:33

So I was doing restaurant design

3:35

and also like project management and like business

3:37

development. So I was always like in this entrepreneurial

3:39

space and slash design space. And

3:41

I actually really loved it. I always thought that that

3:44

was going to be my calling, but I just

3:46

couldn't get ahead. And I was feeling

3:48

like I was just busting out of my shell. Like I wanted

3:50

to do something so exciting and it wasn't happening

3:53

for me there. So then one day I was like, fuck

3:55

it. I'm going to try to apply on this TV show

3:57

and see if something exciting can happen somewhere else. And it just

3:59

sort of happened.

3:59

This is so wild. Oh

4:02

my gosh. And I can't wait to explore more about what

4:04

came from your debut experience.

4:06

I think you were like the first Canadian bachelorette,

4:08

right? Yeah, I was. Yeah. Yeah,

4:11

it was huge. So for you, Sarah,

4:13

what were you doing before you became a full-time

4:16

creator?

4:17

I was a stay-at-home mom for a decade. So

4:19

I actually started blogging when my

4:21

daughters were two and newborn and

4:23

I had just been plunked into Ottawa with

4:25

my ex-husband and felt so disconnected

4:28

from the world. I remember finding like Utah mom

4:30

bloggers and just for the first time I was like, oh

4:32

my God, there's like other people who are moms and at

4:34

home. And I started blogging and I did that

4:36

for a long time until I then

4:39

had three kids moved back home to my hometown

4:41

and didn't have anything to do

4:44

because I had been at home with them. And

4:46

now that they were all three in school, I

4:48

started applying for jobs and like nobody really

4:50

would take me. I couldn't get a job almost anywhere.

4:53

I went through a divorce and I was living

4:55

at my parents' house and I'm not even kidding.

4:57

I'm sitting down for one of the first

5:00

face-to-face after our split with my

5:02

ex-husband and it was sort of this like defining

5:04

moment where I got this phone call and

5:06

it was from my old high school friend. And

5:08

so I'm sitting there looking at my ex-husband

5:11

and I just sort of looked at him. I was like, I got to go. I

5:13

got to take this call. And I picked up that

5:15

phone and it was my friend from high school

5:17

who I'd worked a couple of their jobs when we were

5:19

in high school, Baskin Robbins and the pharmacy.

5:22

We'd worked a couple of jobs together and she's

5:24

like, I'm about to go on mat leave. I'm due in

5:26

a month. We haven't interviewed anybody to

5:28

replace me. I've recommended you. Would

5:30

you come in for an interview tomorrow? So

5:32

I went in for that job interview with

5:35

a boss who not scolded me, but he sort

5:37

of was like, why did you leave blogging off of your resume?

5:40

They were a publishing company and he was like, you're

5:42

mothering and you're blogging or like valued

5:44

here. And I was like, I didn't go to school and he's

5:46

like, neither

5:47

did I. And so it was a really

5:49

like great experience. They started me

5:51

in reception and then I was at

5:53

the forefront of one of their food blogs.

5:55

So I ended up working my way up to editor

5:57

in that position. And then. I

6:00

quit my job and I had like 60,000

6:03

followers at the time, I think maybe 80.

6:05

So when we talk about life figuring

6:08

its way out, what you're supposed to be doing

6:10

and where you're supposed to be, it's so fascinating

6:12

how these little nudges happen along the way. But

6:15

it's always so rooted in, I

6:17

was that woman in a living room with two kids and wanting

6:19

to feel connected to the world. And that's kind

6:21

of still who I am today. That's

6:23

wild.

6:25

And you know what, Sarah, and I would love to talk

6:27

to other influencers out there and what was

6:29

their purpose in getting started because most people who start

6:31

this industry are so impatient. They're

6:33

like wondering why the money is not coming in. But

6:36

really, I think for you and I both, it

6:38

wasn't a desire to make money at first. So

6:40

it is so, so interesting how this industry

6:42

has evolved, but it was really a desire for that

6:45

connection for me as well.

6:47

Yeah, sometimes when the money starts to come

6:49

in, you really have to humble yourself, if I did this for 10 years

6:51

for free. So if it's not a hell yes, it's a

6:53

no. You make mistakes long away for sure. But

6:56

ultimately landing into a place

6:58

where you can really feel proud of what you're doing. Yeah.

7:00

And I think that for me, Jillian, you were

7:02

like the OG reality star

7:05

to influencer that vein,

7:08

right? What's interesting

7:09

is that you've now gone on to build a

7:11

massive business that's an influencer

7:13

led business is one of the first of its kind.

7:16

I'm curious for you, Jillian, like what is

7:18

the hardest part?

7:20

Well, it's so funny because I don't think it's anything

7:22

like what people think it is. I really think people

7:24

think that you wake up and you're like, I want

7:26

to take pictures of myself today and then I'm going to monetize

7:29

that. And that's basically the extent of it. But

7:31

ultimately, we have the same employees that

7:33

any business would have. We have a CEO,

7:35

we have a CFO, we have project managers,

7:38

we have EAs, we have office

7:40

managers, we have HR staff.

7:42

It is really, truly a business. And so

7:45

we are essentially a marketing platform,

7:47

for lack of a better word. And when people don't

7:49

understand, typically like older folks, when they

7:51

don't understand, I try to go back to explaining

7:53

it as if it were like a magazine, right? And so

7:56

essentially, my business is the same.

7:58

On top of that, the overheads. are things like we have

8:00

an office, we have insurance, there's the website

8:03

fees. I think our website fees are like thousands of dollars

8:05

every month. Like it's out of control. You're really

8:07

trying to balance the business like a business.

8:10

So I think the hardest part is just like, where

8:12

is my time best used? And having

8:14

said that, I've been going through this transformation

8:16

for about the last year, it's been very emotional

8:18

for me. And it started with the end of COVID

8:21

and my mom's illness. I honestly feel

8:23

like I was about to have a massive breakdown

8:26

last fall. And I've been trying

8:28

to get myself into this better place so

8:30

that I could then make a decision in which direction

8:32

I'm going to go because it's not sustainable. What

8:34

I was doing before people say like, how do you

8:36

do it all? And I was not doing it properly.

8:39

As your kids get older, they actually need

8:41

you more. There's sports teams,

8:43

there's conversations. They need you at an emotional

8:45

level. I'm saying no to incredible

8:48

opportunities because I know it's going to take me away from

8:50

my family.

8:51

Sarah, I know that there's probably a lot that Jillian

8:53

has shared that you probably identify with, but I'm

8:55

curious, like, what are the hardest parts for you building

8:58

a business in public?

8:59

It's so interesting because I think the biggest struggle

9:02

is people don't take it seriously. So you don't really

9:04

have a lot of people to talk to. It is a

9:06

very privileged job. And it's also

9:09

one that has a massive peak and you

9:11

don't know how long that peak is going to last.

9:13

So you're building a legacy and you're building lifelong,

9:16

hopefully, income to sustain

9:18

what most people would have in a more steady career

9:21

because it sort of goes straight up and

9:23

you're just like, OK, how can I

9:25

create jobs? How can I sustain this?

9:28

How can I build a legacy brand

9:29

from this moment in time? Because

9:32

for some people, it truly is only a moment.

9:34

That's sort of where I'm at right now is

9:36

just trying to figure that out. While also,

9:38

as Jill noted on, I had this core

9:41

ethos when I quit my job that I would spend

9:43

half of all my working days in community. So

9:45

I only have half of what working

9:47

hours are. So I spend four hours in comments

9:49

and DMS and emails. And then I go

9:52

the rest of the time in creative mode

9:54

to Jill's point as well. Scaling back

9:57

and figuring out priorities. We tried daycare.

9:59

It didn't work out.

9:59

So I've got my daughter at home with me two days a week.

10:02

That sometimes is the biggest blessing. And then I get called

10:04

away for work stuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm

10:06

not doing so great at this balance thing. And

10:09

the kids, they need you so much. I spend an average

10:11

of two hours a day in the car, just driving

10:13

them. That's Monday through Sunday. Like

10:15

that is a nonstop, I'm the

10:17

car with my kids.

10:19

On top of being comments and DMs, on top

10:21

of meetings, on top of podcasts, on top of running

10:23

your household, making meals, organizing

10:26

their stuff, coordinating. Oh, and what about Shane?

10:28

And then what about yourself? And what about you?

10:30

That's just it. That's just it. So

10:33

it is a lot to manage on top of managing

10:35

everything else. And I will be honest, I

10:37

think that the mental health side

10:40

of it, because we work such a privileged job,

10:42

nobody really,

10:43

not nobody, but most people, Avery,

10:45

you and I actually just talked about this the

10:47

other day where everyone thinks they know everything

10:50

that's going on with you. So they stopped checking in.

10:52

They watch your stories. And so they're like, you must be

10:54

okay. And when I went through prenatal

10:56

depression, I realized I

10:58

didn't want to share about it anymore. It was too hard

11:01

to talk about. And everyone stopped checking

11:03

in with me because they assumed I was okay. And as

11:05

time's gone on, I've had to be very vocal. I just

11:07

got diagnosed with PMDD, which makes a whole

11:09

lot of sense. But I've let my friends

11:12

know what my cycle is, because I'm actually asking

11:14

them to check in on me. I have these

11:16

really dark, deep thoughts, and I almost always

11:18

quit my job. And that just doesn't impact me. That

11:21

impacts everybody. That impacts my

11:23

family. That impacts my employees. It

11:25

impacts our whole business. And it impacts the community that's

11:27

relying on me because of three days a month.

11:30

I just feel like I'm not worthy

11:32

of anything. I've had some hard

11:34

times in life. And I think when you come into

11:36

anything that's good, or you've come

11:38

from doing this job for free for so long, and

11:40

now you're getting paid, there's a lot of guilt and a lot of

11:42

feeling of

11:43

the other shoe is gonna drop, everybody's

11:45

gonna hate me. And I don't want to go

11:47

through that in public. I did a

11:49

podcast last week with the gentleman who

11:51

started for a session. So he connects

11:54

patients with therapists. And he

11:56

just learned a little bit about my industry. He's like mind-blown.

11:58

And he's like, I want to see the net. series on

12:01

how this impacts mental health, because

12:03

this is the first time in history where we are creating

12:05

industries literally based on us

12:08

and our personalities and our personal life. And

12:10

we're creating full on corporations,

12:13

multi-million dollar corporations that rely on

12:15

us sharing about our vaginas,

12:18

our stretch marks, our babies, our clothing,

12:20

our recipes. It is totally

12:22

wild. And so oftentimes when I want to escape,

12:24

I think why can't escape? The business is me.

12:27

How do I escape from that?

12:29

And one thing I just want to reflect on is I know that

12:31

both of you in this conversation have said on

12:33

numerous occasions, like we're so privileged

12:35

to do the job that we do. I think that anyone

12:38

that is employed is privileged. There's

12:40

a lot of people that don't have

12:43

access to jobs and the

12:45

types of careers that like a lot of people in the West

12:47

have access to. And I just want to kind of share

12:50

that. I think that a lot of people have

12:52

assumptions around like the glam around

12:54

being an influencer or creator. And I

12:56

know that it's a very privileged spot to be in. I

12:59

mean, you're supported by your community, right? Whereas

13:01

like, I mean, in a corporate setting, you

13:03

still have people that are like helping you

13:05

get access to like that money. We have people working

13:08

at tech making like $300,000 a

13:10

year right out of university, right? We don't

13:12

have those men specifically

13:15

constantly acknowledging their privilege and access

13:17

to like mega mega money. And I mean, also in

13:19

a capitalist system, we all have to work. So

13:21

I think that if you found a way to work in a way that's

13:24

offering you more flexibility and liberation

13:26

as women, then go for it. A

13:28

hundred percent. And for a long time, a lot of men

13:31

would control essentially like the way that media

13:33

companies, which is kind of what you both are,

13:35

would operate. Now we're actually having

13:38

women, small business owners build and scale.

13:40

It's incredible.

13:41

Which is why they always use the quotation, we

13:44

don't have a real job. But there was a tweet

13:46

I saw years ago that said like anything that

13:48

a woman champion starts, grows

13:50

and monetizes will be minimized

13:53

by society and not taken

13:55

seriously. And I'm 15 years into

13:57

it, monetizing for five of them.

13:59

and literally have employees

14:02

supporting multiple other families, and it's not

14:04

a real job in quotations. I

14:06

mean, I get it. I get it from the perception standpoint,

14:08

but there's just a very different reality. And I think

14:11

it's important to talk about the reality, not just

14:13

so people pat us on the back and go, you're right, it

14:15

is a real job, but just because so many

14:17

people look up to it and they're like, I would love

14:19

to do that. And it's really being able

14:21

to recognize that you're monetizing

14:24

and creating a media company off of who

14:26

you are. And the line is so gray

14:29

between person and brand,

14:29

and you will be impacted.

14:33

You will be impacted emotionally,

14:35

physically, mentally, every single

14:37

day. It's not the same type of

14:39

real job. And I'm not saying it's like the hardest.

14:41

I would never claim that at all, but it

14:44

is something that is deeply been minimized

14:46

because it is led by majority

14:49

women.

14:53

We go through a lot of emotions in one

14:55

work day. You feel like a success in the morning

14:58

and a complete failure by the afternoon.

15:00

That's why we created our Workplace Affirmation

15:02

Deck, a 50-card deck to help you

15:04

cope with every kind of day at the office.

15:07

It's divided by five emotions, when

15:09

you're feeling unstoppable, when you're craving change,

15:12

when you're feeling uncertain, when you totally

15:14

messed up, and when you just can't

15:16

even.

15:17

Prop one on your desk, tuck it in a notebook,

15:20

or even pass one along to a friend who could

15:22

use it. Get yours today at girlboss.com

15:25

slash affirmations.

15:26

That's girlboss.com slash affirmations.

15:38

You're listening to my conversation with Jillian

15:40

and Sarah. Next up, we talk about balancing

15:42

running a business, being a mom, and taking

15:44

care of yourself. It gets emotional, so you'll

15:46

wanna grab some tissues. Let's get back into

15:48

it.

15:49

What advice do you have for influencers

15:52

that haven't yet made their first hire,

15:54

but are potentially exploring that?

15:56

Shameless plug, that is why I started the Jillian Academy.

15:59

I started the Jillian Academy.

15:59

Academy because friends and people in the community

16:02

were seeing me create this job

16:04

and like, holy shit, this is so cool. And

16:06

I want this, even though there's hard parts

16:09

of it, if anybody wants this career, I

16:11

want it for anybody that wants it. And there's room for

16:13

everybody. Because the great thing about influencing is

16:15

you are creating this little mini TV show,

16:17

basically, that's about your life and

16:19

how you intersect it and how you see it. And

16:22

so it's different for everybody. I follow so

16:24

many different influencers. Yeah, you can

16:26

watch two shows at once. People can follow

16:28

both of us. We're not a threat to each other.

16:30

When you hire somebody, it feels like you have to hire them forever.

16:33

Avery will tell me like you can start on contract.

16:35

It doesn't always have to be an employee. And

16:37

I always told my employees from the very beginning, this

16:40

can be as little or as big as you

16:42

want it to be. I had that conversation with Shay 10

16:45

years ago in the cafeteria of

16:47

Whole Foods. I was like, I have no idea what this is going to be.

16:49

She and I didn't know how to post a blog to save our

16:51

lives. But now she is the vice president and creative director

16:54

of this company. And she has driven

16:56

this company. And we've grown with different employees.

16:59

Some have come, some have gone, but it is

17:00

an investment. But with any investment,

17:03

there should be a return. Hopefully

17:05

it can be beneficial to you and your company. But

17:07

I also think how is this beneficial to the employee

17:09

as well? I think that when I first

17:11

hired, I really didn't know how it was going to work.

17:14

And I maybe over pitched.

17:17

And so being able to follow up and like support

17:19

people long term. I mean,

17:21

the reality is our overhead is a lot. I have

17:24

no regrets. I love that everyone gets to make money. I

17:26

actually wish that I had consulted

17:28

HR earlier. For those that

17:30

don't know, I do use Bloom for

17:33

consulting. And it's helped me make sure that

17:35

they have a great employee experience. But

17:37

I'll be honest, at this point in time, I'm

17:39

terrified to grow because I already

17:42

feel the weight and the pressure of how

17:45

am I going to meet that bottom line. And

17:47

the fact is, I hired a lot of back

17:49

end people. So I am the front end,

17:52

which means if we need to make more money, I have

17:54

to push out more. And so this idea

17:56

of me trying to take Fridays off to be

17:58

with my kids is getting. harder and harder

18:01

because I am supporting these

18:03

other parts of business. I'm full of very

18:05

small salary and everything else goes into people

18:08

and investments to sort of hope that

18:10

we can create long-term jobs for people.

18:13

And so that's been hard for me to expand

18:15

because I don't know how to expand and have people

18:17

help that bottom line when my big stress right

18:19

now is just meeting our overheads,

18:21

meeting our office costs, meeting our equipment

18:24

costs, because I wanted everyone to have the best

18:26

employee experience. And so I

18:29

pay a lot of money into making sure that they

18:31

have classes and menstrual

18:33

care and benefits. I

18:35

have no regrets. I guess I just never imagined

18:38

that I would be because I worked for myself

18:40

and it was always just me answering for me. And

18:42

then suddenly when I say no to an ad campaign

18:45

because I'm burnt out, I'm saying no to income

18:47

for everybody. And that's the hard

18:50

part about growth is really wanting

18:52

to be authentic, wanting to grow in like

18:54

a good way and also like

18:57

trying not to be, I don't know,

18:59

sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, you

19:01

did like 45 links in your stories today. And then I'm also

19:03

like, we got to pay the bills. I get in my head about

19:05

it a lot too. And it's hard to, again,

19:08

probably a lot of like that public perception of like

19:10

whether

19:10

or not it's a real job causes me to question

19:12

myself and whether or not I can

19:14

support it long-term. That's just me being

19:17

completely honest and vulnerable with everybody.

19:19

I never had financial stress until I had employees,

19:21

if I'm honest.

19:23

So like, why do you do it? Creating

19:25

influence and you talked about how you got into it and why

19:27

you got into it, but why do you continue

19:29

to push and build these businesses and these

19:31

companies?

19:33

Why I continue to do it is actually

19:35

a question I've been asking myself for the last year. So

19:37

previous to this last year, I was doing

19:39

it mostly for the team. And my most

19:41

thing that I am most proud of is the team and

19:44

how I built this team who was so capable of running

19:46

my business, of being smart, of being

19:49

strategic. They are just so brilliant

19:51

and I love to give them full reign.

19:53

And I think it mostly is for the team

19:55

because I just want to

19:58

be with my kids more. I'm

20:00

starting to cry. I want more time with them. I want

20:02

more time with my friends. I want to go for lunch.

20:04

I want to go to hot yoga. I want to,

20:07

and I'm such a privilege to work. Like, of course, I want

20:09

to work, but I think I'm not the only one

20:11

that's feeling this way. I think it's just a global feeling

20:14

that people just want to exist. I was always

20:16

a hustle culture girl. I was always that

20:18

girl boss that would be working till midnight every night.

20:21

And I don't know if I just burnt out or

20:23

if I'm, but I think ultimately I just,

20:25

I want to create something that

20:28

I can be proud of, that my kids can be proud of, that my

20:30

employees can be proud of, and that the community I can support

20:32

the community. That's essentially why I keep on

20:35

doing it. And it's fun. I mean, it's fun for

20:37

the most part, for the most part, but there are things that aren't

20:39

fun. And so don't we all wake up every day and go like,

20:41

why am I

20:41

still doing this? While you're on

20:44

this train of thought, you used to be that

20:46

girl boss who would be working until 12 a.m. What

20:48

does being a girl boss mean to you now?

20:50

To

20:51

me, I just feel so empowered since

20:54

October when I'd really lost myself.

20:56

I want to be transparent here for anybody that's

20:58

listening, but my mom wasn't doing well. There

21:00

were a lot of unknowns in our business. I

21:03

had babies and then COVID. And so

21:05

was probably drinking too much. I know, Sarah, you've

21:08

had a great come to Jesus moment with drinking. I was

21:10

probably drinking too much. I was like

21:12

defiant. I was like, I don't need to drink water.

21:15

I don't need to exercise and I don't need to eat vegetables. And

21:17

look at all the things I can still do. But ultimately,

21:20

every day I looked at myself, my bags

21:22

were getting bigger. My face was getting puffier.

21:24

I had anxiety. I wanted to

21:26

go to bed at 6 p.m. I was irritable.

21:29

And I'm like, I cannot create

21:31

that legacy. My day to day actions

21:33

are not meeting up with who I envisioned

21:36

to be. And so I did this big

21:38

transformation. I gave myself six months to

21:40

do it. And so what I'm most proud of today and

21:42

what that girl boss means to me today is when

21:45

I look at my schedule and when I'm sitting down

21:47

and prioritizing, it starts with me

21:49

first. It starts with me and the kids. When

21:51

am I going to get to hot yoga? When am I going to go

21:54

cold plunge? What are we going to have for dinner? When

21:56

am I going to go to Costco? When am I going to see

21:58

my girlfriends? And so to. To me, that

22:00

is girl boss now. I get to do

22:03

that now because I built where I'm at. But

22:05

when you're first starting your business and you're first in

22:07

it, it's hard to grind and

22:10

take care of yourself. It's not easy.

22:12

Say yes until you can say no is important. But

22:14

with you, Sarah, I'm curious. Why do you do

22:17

it?

22:17

I came from being a single mom who didn't really

22:19

have a lot of income, nor did I have

22:22

a life outside of my home. And

22:24

for the beginning of it, before the pandemic,

22:26

when I was really starting to do this, I got an opportunity

22:29

to get to know myself. And then I had a baby

22:31

and it really brought me back into the home

22:33

and back into these spaces. And I remembered

22:35

so deeply why I started in the

22:37

first place. And it was because I wanted to connect

22:40

with the world when I was stuck in one

22:42

place. You forget the impact

22:44

that you could actually have these ripple effects of

22:47

singular

22:47

moments of conversation and storytelling

22:50

have an impact on people's lives.

22:52

Like, yeah, we can talk about how much money we make or whatever,

22:55

but like how many people actually went home and

22:57

let their husbands hug them and touch their stomachs

22:59

and how many people went to the beach with their kids and how

23:01

many of them said, you know what, fuck it, I need

23:03

to do something for me. I need to book a

23:05

solo trip. That's the stuff that I think keeps

23:08

me coming back because the last

23:10

couple of years, and I know Jill knows this, it's been really

23:12

hard. People have been meaner than I've ever

23:15

seen. And it gets really hard

23:17

to stay connected

23:17

to the wide because it doesn't matter if it's like 100

23:20

people telling you that they're so grateful for

23:22

you. There's one person that thinks you're the worst person

23:24

in the world. And I will always want

23:26

to try and reach them. It's my toxic trait.

23:29

Totally, totally. You want to try to like prove

23:31

them wrong or whatever. I had to delete Facebook

23:34

for that reason. And yes, as a business person,

23:36

I need constructive criticism. Of course

23:38

I need to know, but I have a team for that now. I

23:40

hired a team for that and they should be strategic enough

23:42

to figure out what to pull the good from the bad

23:44

and like, what do we actually need to listen to? But

23:47

whenever people, let's say they

23:49

say something mean, and then we cry about it or we're upset

23:51

about it, the response after response is, well, you

23:53

got into this industry. So I'm like, so wait a second,

23:56

hold on. Let's talk about this industry. This is

23:58

an industry that was

23:59

created.

23:59

by, funded by, and basically

24:02

motivated by women. They wanted

24:04

to see us succeed. They were tagging us, they

24:06

bought the things, they encouraged us, they comment,

24:09

whatnot. So great. So then you build your momentum

24:11

and some influencers or people in this industry,

24:13

they get more and more successful. They're upset that you've

24:15

gotten too successful. It's not the same because you're not

24:17

in the same playing field as them anymore. But I

24:20

shouldn't feel guilty for that. Why do I have to feel bad

24:22

for that? But ultimately, like you said, no

24:24

other straight male in his 60s

24:27

is sitting there in his CEO position,

24:29

making

24:29

hundreds of thousands of dollars a year feeling guilty

24:32

and feeling like he needs to give away a person with profits

24:34

to make other people feel more seen. I think

24:37

ultimately just be a nice person. And if

24:39

you don't like what somebody's doing, and you don't like the

24:41

content, if you don't like whatever, just unfollow

24:43

them.

24:44

Yeah. And honestly, like I think about

24:46

this all the time, every single time I see a woman have

24:48

a comeback career in Hollywood, and

24:51

you realize they're coming back from being torn

24:53

down. They made it too big. Look at Miley Cyrus.

24:56

Look at any big celebrity that's doing some

24:58

sort of a comeback and look at the media that

25:00

happened before they left. It's a tear

25:02

down and then they have to come back from it and then

25:04

they praise them for it and then they'll tear them down again.

25:07

This is across all industries, not just industries

25:09

like influencer and creator agencies. We've

25:12

seen this in tech, the woman tech

25:14

CEO takedown is like a phenomenon

25:16

that a lot of people have been writing about. But I

25:18

mean, what you're talking about, Jillianne, is tall poppy syndrome.

25:20

It occurs when people are attacked, resented, disliked,

25:23

criticized, or cut down because

25:25

of their achievements and or success. And

25:27

this is specifically a really apparent

25:30

within women communities and environments,

25:32

but it does impact women worldwide.

25:34

And it's a unique type of bias

25:36

that happens on like the silent continuum

25:38

that has a huge impact. And it's interesting because I

25:41

couldn't imagine the fun I would

25:43

have as a male CEO and how

25:46

I could run amok and harass

25:48

people and get away with it. Like I wouldn't want

25:50

to do any of these things, but it's like we know men

25:52

behave in horrific ways behind closed

25:54

doors and behind their businesses and never held

25:57

accountable in the same way that women are.

25:59

Sarah, what does success

26:01

mean to you?

26:03

Looping back on what I said earlier, that connection

26:05

to why, but also on the monetary side

26:07

of things. Nicole Walters, I podcasted

26:09

with her not long ago and she's somebody who's

26:12

made multi-million dollars as a woman running

26:14

business and teaching other women to do the same.

26:16

And she said something that deeply

26:18

impacted me and the way that I perceived money

26:21

and success. Cause she said, Sarah, money

26:23

is good with you and money is good with me

26:25

because we're good people and we'll do good things

26:27

with it.

26:28

And I remember that every single time I sort

26:30

of get that guilt, just, oh my gosh,

26:33

why do I have these opportunities? Why me?

26:35

And then I realized how little of it I

26:38

actually keep for myself and how

26:40

much I love to actually do with it. I

26:42

mean, you watch us all open PR

26:44

boxes, but you don't see how 99.9% of

26:46

it goes to mamas for mamas. So

26:50

I receive everything so that it can be a system

26:52

that goes out. It's safe with me. It's good

26:54

with me because I'm working on

26:56

being a good person and pursuing that

26:59

and to be successful, connected with that

27:01

why and continuing to pursue how

27:03

to be a good person with the success,

27:06

it ends up being success. It seems

27:08

so much about us and it's so little

27:10

about us.

27:11

And how about you, Jillian? What's your definition

27:13

of success?

27:15

There's no denying I've done well financially

27:17

in my career. I

27:19

love taking my family on vacation, my extended

27:21

family, my friends. I love giving back

27:23

to the community financially. There's so many

27:26

financial things that I'm proud of, but

27:28

I realize it's not what makes me happy.

27:31

So I think success to me recently

27:33

has just been about that balance, finding

27:36

that balance of really listening

27:38

to your intuition. And I'm thinking about the

27:40

Jillian Harris that hustled so hard and the Jillian

27:42

Harris that's here. All of them are sort of successful

27:45

to me because I'm telling you it's not a dollar figure.

27:47

I've done that. It's the happiness, it's

27:49

all in the happiness. And I know that's really vague

27:52

and it's hard, but I'm telling you it's not in the

27:54

followers and it's not in the money. And

27:56

I wish I could say it was because people want that tangible

27:59

number.

28:00

And I'll tell you, it's not in your weight. It's

28:02

not in your size either. All the things

28:04

that we were told that make women happy are

28:07

not always it. And so you're

28:09

right though, that's why it's such an individual

28:11

thing to ask, like what makes somebody happy? Because

28:13

we're all so different. Can

28:15

I also just mention a caveat to that statement?

28:17

So it's easy for me to say it's not

28:20

money that makes you happy because I have reached

28:22

a place in my life where I'm like, I feel comfortable. So

28:24

for those of you who are listening, that's like, oh, it's easy

28:27

enough for me to say that. I get it. I totally get it.

28:29

And yes, it's nice to be at a place where you don't

28:31

have to worry about where your next meal is coming, of

28:33

course. But when you get to that place

28:35

where you feel like you can be comfortable,

28:37

more money, it gives you a certain

28:39

rush once in a while, but it doesn't ultimately give you

28:41

that internal happiness. LISA DESJARDINS-SJELENI

28:49

I do. I do feel like I'm successful,

28:52

mostly in the eyes of other people.

28:54

I know I'm successful because of how people

28:56

have treated me or talked to me, which I'm so

28:58

grateful for. People come up to me in the grocery

29:01

store, or they want to get my picture. That's

29:03

so cool. And I know my mother-in-law and

29:05

my mom, and they're so proud of me. So

29:07

I must be successful. I got this car and this farm,

29:10

and I can buy a first-class ticket if I really

29:12

want to. I must be successful. But I

29:14

do beat myself up because even

29:16

last night, I'm kissing the kids constantly

29:19

because I'm thinking, did I do a good enough job

29:21

today? Didn't I spend enough time with them? Was I present

29:23

enough? And I always think with my staff,

29:26

oh, my gosh, am I too old? Do I go all over the place

29:28

to them? Do they know what their direction is? Do I support

29:31

them enough with Justin? Am I giving him

29:33

enough time? He's going to say

29:35

no right now. He's in the kitchen. He's going to be like, you don't give me

29:37

enough time. But so yes, I do think I'm successful

29:40

in the eyes of others. But I'm very hard at myself

29:42

because I think I could improve so many other

29:44

things that I'm trying. But sometimes it

29:47

just doesn't happen. Yeah, so I don't know. Yes

29:49

and no.

29:51

Yes and no. We get that a lot here when

29:53

we ask that question. Thank you so much for

29:55

your vulnerability, Jillian. Lots

29:57

of tears on this episode.

29:59

too, there's an episode of Friends

30:02

where Rachel quits her job as a coffee person

30:04

to like go and work in fashion. That's what she wants to

30:06

do. And they said, you're never going to do it. You're never going to jump

30:09

from being this to that if you don't have the fear in

30:11

you. And I think about that sometimes

30:13

because I think part of me will

30:15

never really feel success because I'm

30:17

still so

30:18

driven to pursue everything.

30:21

I feel like if I felt successful in

30:23

every sense of the word, not just like other people seeing

30:25

me as successful, I feel like if I felt it, I

30:28

wonder if I would still do it. I wonder if I would

30:30

still care to pursue things. I like that. I

30:32

don't know it. I like that. I don't feel it. I like

30:34

that. I feel like the same person I was when I was 23

30:37

and started all of this. And I'm glad

30:39

that we get to live in a world that other

30:41

people will see it as successful and I still

30:43

don't. Nicole Jardimas

30:44

Okay, so we could have talked for hours, but

30:46

I think that before we wrap up, I wanted

30:49

to do a quick in and out with

30:51

both of you. So very quickly, in or

30:53

out, we'll start with you, Jillian first,

30:55

checking emails the moment you wake up.

30:57

Jillian What's out, but I still do it. Nicole Jardimas

31:01

How about you, Sarah? Sarah K Out.

31:05

Nicole Jardimas Responding to online hate. Sarah K Out. Nicole

31:07

Jardimas Out. Nicole

31:08

Jardimas Making friends online. Sarah

31:10

K And Jill and

31:12

Avery, actually. Nicole Jardimas We all made friends

31:14

online. That's why I put that in there.

31:16

Remote work. Sarah K And Nicole

31:19

Jardimas

31:20

Okay, failing in public. Sarah K

31:22

And even when I don't try

31:24

to. Nicole Jardimas Public apologies.

31:26

Sarah K In. Nicole Jardimas

31:28

In. Sarah K Yes. Okay, cool.

31:31

Is there anything that you would like to leave folks

31:33

off with before we wrap up today? Nicole Jardimas

31:35

Thank you for letting us share and speak

31:38

to some of the more untalked about sides

31:40

of things. Thanks for giving us space to do

31:42

so, even when our heart rates goes

31:45

up a little bit, because I know it's going to be perceived

31:47

beyond what intention is. And Avery,

31:49

thank you so much for leading this conversation and

31:51

reminding us of our worth in this

31:53

space and our success along

31:56

the way. And Jill, as always, I appreciate

31:58

you. Sarah K

31:58

Love you. Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having us and

32:01

anybody who's listening, questioning where

32:03

they are in their life cycle or whatever,

32:05

just be easy on yourself.

32:07

Thank you so much for joining me today. I know that the Girlboss

32:09

community is so appreciative of all this advice

32:12

and the vulnerability that you both showed up with today.

32:14

So thank you. Thank you.

32:17

Thank you. Love all of you.

32:23

Thank

32:23

you for listening to my chat with Jillian and Sarah.

32:26

I really love when I get to have friends on the podcast. I

32:28

feel like we had one of our phone calls and you were

32:30

right there with us. Come back next

32:32

week for another episode of Girlboss Radio and

32:35

in the meantime, please rate this episode or leave

32:37

a comment. Let us know what you thought. As always,

32:40

this podcast is produced by Liz Goober and Victoria

32:42

Christie and edited by Diego Domine.

32:45

Until next time, keep looming.