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0:38

This is Girlboss Radio with me, Avery, your

0:40

host. I'm the founder and CEO of the workplace

0:42

design consultancy, Bloom, and a firm believer

0:44

that work should work for all of us. Today

0:46

I'm joined by Ladevia Drain, the head of global

0:49

inclusion, diversity, and equity at Amazon

0:51

Web Services. Ladevia has been a longtime

0:53

leader and champion of removing barriers for

0:55

underrepresented communities and cultivating

0:58

equitable spaces. Her career is

1:00

nothing short of impressive, spanning law, politics,

1:02

and tech. Previously, Ladevia

1:04

worked as a law associate, then she transitioned

1:07

to public policy and politics. She

1:09

worked as a chief of staff in Congress and even

1:11

served on Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential

1:14

campaign. Ladevia and I chatted about big

1:16

career pivots, how to make your market a large company,

1:19

and what a typical day looks like as a DEI leader

1:22

and a working mom of three. Let's get

1:25

into it.

1:26

Thank you so much for joining us at Girlboss

1:29

Radio today. I am very excited to have

1:31

this conversation. First and foremost, how are you

1:33

feeling?

1:34

I'm feeling good. How are you, Avery?

1:36

I am good. It's been one of those weeks. I'm

1:39

moving through. I'm

1:41

happy that I'm talking to you today. It's not often

1:43

that I get to speak to someone that I really admire

1:45

that's industry adjacent on the podcast.

1:48

So I'm just excited to dive in today.

1:50

Well, just know that the feeling is mutual. Thank

1:52

you so much for having me. Thank

1:54

you. Okay. So my heart fluttered,

1:56

by the way, when you said that. I was like, oh, no. Amazing.

2:00

So I always like to look

2:02

backwards before we talk about present day. And

2:04

I'm really interested, before you

2:07

became the woman that you are, what did

2:09

you want to be when you grew up?

2:10

When I was a little girl, I was really bossy. And

2:13

I knew, number one, I wanted to be a lawyer, but

2:16

further from that, I wanted to specifically

2:18

be a judge. I wanted to be a juvenile

2:20

court justice.

2:22

And to this day, I really do

2:24

admire judges, and I specifically admire judges

2:26

that work with children. That's incredible.

2:29

Every single time I talk to anyone, and

2:31

I've been asking this question a lot now, what

2:33

they wanted to be when they grew up didn't materialize into

2:35

what they are now. So you went from working

2:38

in Capitol Hill to Amazon Web

2:41

Services, very different industries.

2:43

How did you get to where you are

2:45

now from there?

2:47

You know, even though the industries are different,

2:50

so government versus technology,

2:52

the brands, the

2:55

impact, the size, the

2:57

scope, the scale, are

2:59

very similar. I knew coming from Capitol

3:02

Hill that I needed to attach myself to

3:04

the same type of organization where

3:06

we would be close to the sun, where

3:09

there was a spotlight, there were high risk,

3:12

high reward. And so for me,

3:14

I'm not sure if there's many

3:16

brands that have that same

3:19

presence as Amazon, and it's

3:21

kept me busy.

3:22

So how did you get

3:24

there? How did you make that shift?

3:27

On Capitol Hill, I worked in policy

3:29

and legislation, and so I actually made

3:31

a pretty simple transition over

3:34

to Amazon as a lobbyist. Same type

3:36

of work, working with the same people,

3:39

still going to the Hill, interfacing

3:41

with members of Congress and people in the administration.

3:44

So really seamless transition over

3:46

to Amazon, but then there was the

3:48

jump from Amazon Public Policy to

3:51

Amazon Web Services, inclusion, diversity, and

3:53

equity. That was kind of different, a space that

3:55

I always wanted to get

3:56

into specifically for a large tech company.

3:59

So what I learned love most about your journey

4:01

and as peers in the industry. I

4:03

know that some of the most impactful work is

4:06

work that's actually focused on systems and

4:08

policy change. So I think it's so valuable

4:10

to have people like you and the role that you're in.

4:13

What I was actually really curious about is like, why

4:15

did you make the pivot?

4:16

You know, just hearing you talk about systems,

4:19

you helped me to make the connection. I

4:22

know that this work is work that I've always done

4:24

on the heel, working for the

4:26

Congressional Black Caucus. I mean,

4:28

working with minority caucuses

4:30

overall, always looking

4:32

for ways to be

4:34

the voice for the voiceless. There's something

4:36

about digging deep into the processes

4:40

and figuring out what needs to change

4:43

in order to ensure that the system

4:45

changes, right? The outcome of those systems

4:47

change. And that's what I did on

4:49

Capitol Hill. And that's what I'm able to do

4:52

now at Amazon Web Services. Not everyone

4:54

is able to do that in these jobs. Not every

4:56

company is looking for someone to

4:58

come in who wants to dig deep into their systems,

5:01

right?

5:02

People that are listening right now, you can't see me, but I

5:04

am like nodding ferociously to everything

5:06

you're saying. And like so many things are coming up for me.

5:08

A lot of organizations love to focus

5:10

on performative type of work, things

5:13

that are external facing, but those are oftentimes

5:15

in my personal opinion, Band-Aid solutions as it relates

5:17

to this work. And I know that we've gotten already

5:19

quite deep into the conversation, but for folks that aren't

5:22

like so totally aware of DEI,

5:25

what is DEI? So you can kind of explain it for folks

5:27

listening.

5:28

We're the people that look

5:30

at representation. We also

5:32

look at equity. Are we meeting

5:34

our employees where they are

5:37

and adjusting to where they

5:39

need us to be as opposed to them

5:41

meeting us where we are, right? And then inclusion,

5:44

making sure that everyone has a place

5:46

in the work. No one, regardless

5:48

of where you're from or how you look, no

5:51

one's left out of the work. We all have

5:53

a part to play. So that's the

5:55

D, the E and the I of the

5:57

work.

5:58

Yeah, I love that. I

6:00

wanted to ask you, what inspired

6:02

you to get into this work? Well,

6:05

Arie, I'm a Black woman in America.

6:07

Every day of

6:09

my life, even before I was born,

6:12

right, there are systems

6:14

of inequality. There's racism

6:16

that I've faced, even when I didn't know

6:19

it. Not that I'm an adult, I look back

6:21

and I wonder, why can't I swim?

6:23

Why can't swim? Because I grew up in the inner city

6:26

of Cleveland, where I didn't have access to pools.

6:28

There's a reason why I lived in an all

6:30

Black neighborhood. And so for me, I've

6:33

been really fortunate that I don't believe

6:35

that my race has stopped me from being

6:37

successful. There are things that I'm sure

6:40

I don't have access to in places I don't

6:42

have access to because of my race and because

6:44

of my gender. But for me, it's not

6:46

necessarily about me. There are people

6:49

coming behind me,

6:50

in particular, girls, that

6:53

I want to have access to the

6:55

best. That's my mission. That's why

6:57

I do this work. It's for those women,

6:59

those girls that are coming behind me, and

7:02

folks that are non-binary, that may face the

7:04

same type of challenges to show up

7:06

and be exactly who they are at places like

7:08

Amazon Web Services.

7:10

Yeah, definitely. I think that that's such an important

7:12

mission. And I think that, unfortunately, a lot

7:14

of that work is following on people within

7:16

the community. And I'm saying this as a Black

7:19

biracial woman, right? It's so funny

7:21

when you mentioned living in an all Black neighborhood

7:23

right now and growing up in Black neighborhoods

7:26

and not having access to something as simple as like a pool

7:28

so you didn't learn how to swim. I was actually walking

7:30

around my neighborhood today, and I'm constantly facing

7:32

just nuanced microaggressions

7:35

and shitty experiences because I live in a predominantly

7:38

white neighborhood. And I asked myself just

7:40

inner monologue, why don't I live in an all Black

7:42

neighborhood? And I asked myself that honestly. And the

7:45

things that came up weren't great for

7:47

a myriad of reasons, mainly because I'm single, live

7:49

alone, but also because they're like underfunded,

7:52

underprotected, underserved. And specifically

7:54

in Canada, and I know this is changing a lot in North

7:56

America, but not really, right? And

7:59

these are like small, barriers that I think that a lot of people

8:01

that aren't black don't have to think

8:03

about. That's

8:04

right. You shouldn't even have to ask yourself that question.

8:06

When I first moved

8:08

into my home, I shared this on social media

8:11

a few years ago. I was really excited

8:12

about my renovation because I bought a 200 year

8:14

old home. I wanted to gut it and renovate

8:16

it from top to finish and be like a little Joanna

8:19

Gaines or Leanne Ford and do my thing.

8:21

And I started documenting the experience and within

8:24

like a month of starting this project,

8:26

my house was vandalized on the outside. They threw paint

8:28

all over and sent me a letter threatening me. And

8:31

I stopped because I was concerned

8:33

about my own personal safety. Right. And I think

8:35

that I don't know if it was a racially motivated event.

8:38

I have no clue. But what I do know is it didn't happen

8:40

to anyone else's house that no one in the neighborhood

8:42

has ever had an experience like that. And I escalated it

8:44

right up to the mayor and his response

8:46

was like, yeah, there's a racist underbelly in

8:48

the environment, the space that we

8:50

reside in. Right. And it's an unfortunate, hard

8:52

truth. And I'm sharing this today because I think

8:55

that's what kind of motivated me to reflect on that experience.

8:57

But then also for me to even have

8:59

this happen and have to think, was this because of the

9:02

way that I look? Is this because of my race? These

9:04

are all things that

9:04

white folks don't necessarily have to think about

9:07

on a daily basis. And Avery,

9:09

you have the privilege to be able to

9:11

make that choice. There was this place called the

9:14

West Side of Cleveland and we knew that

9:16

black people didn't live on the West Side of Cleveland. And

9:18

so, yeah, it's so nuanced and

9:20

it changes and it evolves. But you should always

9:23

have the choice.

9:24

Absolutely. Absolutely. So in reflecting

9:27

back on the work that you're doing at Amazon Web Services,

9:29

I think that removing barriers

9:32

for folks specifically from historically marginalized

9:34

communities, so they actually have a choice is

9:36

so important. You're right. I'm coming from

9:38

a huge place of privilege where I do have options

9:41

and choice. So I wanted to

9:43

go back to the pivot, right? Because a lot of folks are

9:45

probably listening to this. And I mean, you and I could

9:47

talk a lot about the experiences of lived

9:49

experiences of black folks and our own personal lived experiences.

9:52

But what is your advice for listeners who

9:54

are trying to make a career pivot?

9:56

Well, number one, I would say you can't be afraid to

9:58

fail. Right. We want to.

9:59

fell forward. And so anyone

10:02

that is being held back

10:04

or making that pivot because of fear, that's

10:07

the reason to do it.

10:08

Leap, jump, go for it, fell

10:11

forward,

10:12

dust yourself off and try again. There's

10:14

something about complacency. And

10:16

so my message is that to anyone

10:19

who wants to pivot and

10:21

hard pivot,

10:22

completely different industry. If you

10:25

have that in your gut, if that's

10:27

something that you desire, you want to go after

10:29

it, do not be afraid and do

10:32

it just because you're fearful. That means

10:34

that there's something that's awesome on the other side.

10:37

If it's hard to get to, usually it's worth

10:39

it.

10:39

Yeah, totally.

10:41

So Amazon Web Services, massive,

10:44

massive organization, an iconic brand,

10:46

globally known. How do you actually make

10:48

your mark at a large company so

10:51

you don't feel like a small fish in a big

10:53

pond? That

10:54

is such a good question. You

10:56

know, I think you make your mark

10:57

number one by doing good work,

11:00

not taking shortcuts. I remember

11:02

working on Capitol Hill and wanting

11:05

to

11:07

be someone that folks would come to

11:10

for advice and to work with

11:12

on bills and things like that. And so I

11:14

decided that I wasn't going to do that through

11:17

social circles. Instead, I was

11:19

going to do really good work, right? I was going to

11:21

write really important bills

11:23

and work to get them passed. And it's

11:25

the same thing for me in my current

11:27

role. I don't think it matters where you

11:30

are, but that you show

11:32

up and do a really good job at what's in

11:34

front of you. And it all comes. It's

11:37

so important, especially now with things like social

11:39

media and folks just wanting to be on

11:41

the stage and have the microphone. But what's the

11:44

substance behind what you're saying? Like I can

11:46

truly say that Amazon Web Services

11:48

is better today in the space

11:50

of inclusion, diversity and equity because

11:52

my team exists because of the work that we've

11:55

done over the years. And so that's

11:57

what I'm able to talk about as opposed to giving

11:59

lips.

11:59

of things that really don't matter, right?

12:02

Or showing up in that way. So I think it's the hard

12:04

work, it's the substance behind the work. And that's

12:06

how you make your mark.

12:08

So every day you're doing a lot of work to support

12:10

the liberation of underrepresented groups and people.

12:13

And we know that you're a working mum

12:15

of three.

12:16

How do you balance life and

12:18

work? I decided in the very

12:20

beginning, so when I came into this role

12:22

a few years ago, that I was not gonna

12:24

compartmentalize, right? That

12:27

I was going to be all of who

12:29

I am every day. And I knew that

12:31

in this role, I would be better if

12:34

I brought all of that with me

12:37

into the office. That's what pushes

12:39

me. That's what motivates me.

12:41

I think deciding to be exactly

12:43

who I am and not compartmentalize is really

12:45

what helps me to get through this work. And I don't

12:47

have to pretend to be someone different at work

12:49

from when I'm at home, especially working from home.

12:52

I mean, how do you do that? Who

12:54

wants to go on a trip to Italy with Diane Keaton,

12:58

Jane

13:01

Fonda, Mary Steen version and Candice

13:03

Bergen? All of us, right?

13:06

Your favorite book club movie is back. And

13:08

this time they're jetting off to the pasta capital

13:10

of the world for the ultimate bachelorette

13:12

bash.

13:13

What was supposed to be a relaxing vacation turns

13:16

into a once in a lifetime cross country adventure

13:18

with plenty of laughs, romance and a sprinkle

13:21

of scandal.

13:22

These fabulous best friends proved that like

13:24

wine, you only get better with age. Book

13:26

club two, the next chapter is in theaters

13:28

and on demand now. Get your tickets

13:31

at the link in the show notes.

13:33

You're listening to my chat with Ladevia,

13:40

the head

13:42

of global inclusion, diversity and equity at

13:44

Amazon Web Services. Next up, we

13:46

talk about how workplaces can be more inclusive for

13:49

working moms and parents. Let's get back into

13:51

it.

13:52

So speaking of all this, speaking

13:54

about authentic selves, how can

13:56

we make the workplace more inclusive for

13:59

working moms and parents?

13:59

and parents.

14:01

I know that I'm a better employee because I'm a mom.

14:04

I work really hard because I have little people

14:06

at home that depend on me.

14:08

Because I have an eight-month-old, I'm up most

14:10

hours of the night

14:11

and I check my email. So yes, I

14:13

may have to turn off at a certain point to make dinner

14:16

or to put the children to bed, but usually I get

14:18

back on and I'm up early and I work really

14:20

hard and so I do believe that

14:23

it's in a company and organizations.

14:26

It should be a priority to make sure that

14:29

mothers feel as though they can

14:31

be moms and still

14:33

be in the workforce, be able

14:35

to progress in the workforce, be successful,

14:38

lead teams. It's so important.

14:41

It's so

14:41

important.

14:42

Yeah, I totally agree and I think that

14:45

having the autonomy to

14:48

have more flexibility in your

14:50

work structure is incredibly

14:53

important and integral for working parents.

14:55

I myself am not a parent but we have two

14:57

parents that work at Bloom

14:59

and I know that what they've shared with me is having access

15:02

to flexible work hours has been really important

15:04

for them. And another thing that we've launched

15:06

at Bloom that doesn't work for every company but I know

15:09

that a lot of organizations are aspiring to one

15:11

day get there is the four-day workweek has been like

15:13

a pretty big shift in supporting that but

15:15

I think that you're right. A lot of people

15:17

that I've spoken to that have embarked

15:20

on parenthood or motherhood have said that

15:22

they've become like a better employee

15:24

or even just better what they do because

15:27

of it because prioritizing your time becomes

15:29

like a superpower. And

15:32

I can tell you one thing that Amazon

15:34

does really well is allow

15:36

whether or not you've birthed

15:39

a child or adopted a child

15:41

but to be able to take the time

15:44

and to have your leave right

15:46

and have extended leaves in addition to

15:48

what's acceptable right what's reasonable. I was

15:51

away for almost six months

15:53

and this is the first time that I was

15:55

able to take six months away and

15:58

come back full throttle.

15:59

because I wanted to. After the fact,

16:02

my job was there. There was no question

16:04

that my job would be there. And I still have

16:06

time that I can take before my child turns one.

16:08

And so the programs that companies

16:11

build with their employees in mind

16:13

and the way that we live our lives now,

16:16

I think are just so important. Our leave

16:19

policy, it was a game changer for me.

16:22

That's amazing. And yeah, I totally agree.

16:24

Bring in the more inclusive

16:26

and affirming parental leave policies,

16:28

right? I mean, of course you brought that up because your

16:31

focus is on systems and policy change. It's such

16:33

a big part of that, right? So what advice

16:35

would you give to parents that are working

16:38

in an environment that isn't actually totally

16:41

supportive of people with children?

16:43

I went a long time not putting my

16:45

children first. And I made the decision

16:48

that it was time to put them first. And so I

16:50

sought a job that would allow me to work from home.

16:52

I needed just a few years

16:54

to just be there for them, to pick

16:56

them up from school, to be there when they went

16:58

to bed and when they woke up. And so that was

17:01

a decision that I made personally. And

17:03

I think it's that decision of prioritizing

17:05

what's important.

17:06

If your priority is building, if

17:08

your priority is ascending the

17:11

corporate ladder, then you may

17:13

have to make a different decision about

17:15

whether or not you want to change

17:18

jobs or seek out an organization

17:20

that's

17:20

going to be more open to having

17:23

policies that are friendly to parents. But

17:26

I can tell you, I'm someone that, yes, it's

17:28

important to me to be successful in an organization, but

17:30

it's more important for me right now to prioritize

17:33

my children. So I had to align myself with a

17:35

company that would allow me to do that.

17:37

Yeah, that's super important. Another question

17:39

I just wanted to ask is, for folks

17:41

that are feeling energized by this conversation

17:44

right now, and they're loving the work that you're doing, and they're really

17:46

resonating with what you're sharing, what advice

17:48

do you have folks that are like, I really like to get

17:50

into DEI. How do you think that they can pursue

17:52

that?

17:59

people want to go after that big role

18:02

and lead the organization, I think that there's

18:04

a pathway to get there. The pathway for me

18:06

was starting in public policy and taking

18:09

that experience and using

18:11

that, which I use every day in this role. For

18:13

others, it may be look at product management,

18:16

look at program management, look

18:18

at the areas where you already have

18:20

some type of expertise, and you can bring

18:23

that to DEI. Think outside of the box

18:25

in that way, as opposed to thinking that

18:27

it's some static thing. I'll give you

18:29

another example for people that love community

18:32

work. I have a global community

18:34

leader. I mean, literally every day she wakes

18:36

up thinking about, how do I go

18:38

after partnerships and sponsorships and

18:41

be able to give our employees the

18:43

opportunity to lead in communities

18:45

where or on projects where diversity

18:48

and technology meet? So there's some really

18:50

awesome jobs out there. But again, I would say

18:53

look for those roles where you can use

18:55

what you are great at, the superpowers

18:57

that you already have, and bring those to

18:59

DEI. I think that we're two

19:02

really great examples of this. You came from Capitol

19:04

Hill. I came from a tech startup. Okay,

19:07

so at Girl Boss Radio, we are

19:09

obsessed with exploring

19:11

people,

19:12

and specifically women's different

19:15

definitions of success. And I

19:17

would love to understand for

19:19

you, what does it mean to be successful?

19:22

You know, Avery, I'm successful when my team

19:24

is successful. I don't want to win alone.

19:27

I want to bring others with me. And so

19:29

when I'm most successful,

19:31

I have these awesome people around

19:33

me, and we're making

19:35

things happen together. We're better together. So

19:38

that's when I'm successful. I'm successful when my team is

19:40

successful.

19:41

Oh my gosh, I just had another heart flutter moment

19:43

with you. You're so

19:45

fucking right. Like I'm so

19:47

right. I haven't heard that explanation and

19:50

that frame about success since we started these

19:52

conversations now over the last two seasons.

19:54

And I mean, that unlocked a

19:56

new source of inspiration for me too, because that's

19:59

genuinely what I... feeling the best. Like I think

20:01

I feel more hyped when I get great feedback

20:03

about people on my team. Like that's when I feel successful

20:06

personally. So with that I'd love to ask

20:08

you, do you believe that you're successful?

20:10

Do I believe that I'm successful? I

20:13

believe that every day I'm working

20:15

to get better and better. I ride the Peloton,

20:17

I don't know about you. I have it, I don't

20:19

ride it. I look at it a lot. Okay, okay.

20:23

Yeah, I walk by it every day, has a couple coats

20:25

on it. Well,

20:26

I ride every morning and I love

20:28

it because you have this personal

20:31

best, right? They call it a PR. And

20:34

so every day I'm

20:35

trying to surpass my

20:38

personal record, my PR, from

20:40

the day before or the ride before

20:42

I had my last little guy, right?

20:44

Before I gave birth to Kingston. And so that's

20:47

success for me. It's showing up better than

20:49

I showed up yesterday and it's doing that

20:51

time and time again. So do I believe I'm successful?

20:54

Every day I'm trying to be more and more successful.

20:57

So I'm not going to say yes, I'm not going to say no,

20:59

I'm just going to keep on striving to that PR.

21:01

I love that frame. I think that working

21:04

towards that getting better every

21:06

single day is a really great frame

21:08

to acknowledge. And I think that if you

21:10

define success as the practice of that,

21:12

I think that's a beautiful place to be centered

21:15

around growth and grace, a whole space

21:17

for that room.

21:18

And Arie, I don't want to drink my own juice. I

21:20

don't want to get so full of myself and think

21:22

that in any area, being a mom, being

21:24

a wife, being a manager, being

21:27

whatever it is that you are, I think it's so

21:29

important to remain humble and to know that

21:31

there's always

21:31

the place that you can grow.

21:33

Do you think it's possible to feel successful

21:35

but

21:37

be actively engaged in the pursuit

21:39

of getting better? I do. For

21:41

instance, you gave a speech, you knocked

21:43

it out the park. That was a success. And

21:45

I do believe in attaboys. Like I believe

21:47

in writing down your successes. I believe

21:49

in being grateful for the things that

21:52

you've conquered and the things that you've pushed

21:54

through. But there's always, there's

21:57

always room to grow. There's always more success

21:59

to be had. And maybe for me, I just

22:01

don't want to get to the place where I'm complacent. And

22:04

I feel as though, oh, I can stop. No,

22:06

I gotta keep on moving, gotta keep on pressing.

22:09

A lot of people listening right now probably

22:11

are struggling with their own definitions

22:14

of success. And I think that a big part of that

22:16

is because we change, people change, and our

22:18

concepts of success change. How has your

22:21

definition of success evolved over

22:23

time?

22:24

So I do believe that we have

22:26

to be kind to ourselves, the

22:28

definitions, the things that I think society

22:31

puts on us. I try my very

22:33

best to resist that, right?

22:35

Who defines success for me? I guess I define

22:37

it for myself, but I'm sure that there are societal

22:40

things that have an impact on that. I'm

22:42

okay with not being that every single day

22:44

or not measuring myself in that way.

22:47

And what advice do you actually have for people

22:49

that are struggling with feeling

22:51

like they'll never achieve any sort of level

22:54

of success? And this is specifically true for folks that

22:56

are working within large organizations like

22:58

you are where it takes more time to grow

23:00

and to get that promotion, get that raise.

23:03

What advice do you have for them?

23:04

Don't give up,

23:05

don't quit. There is nothing worse

23:08

than walking away from the fight, from the struggle.

23:10

You gotta give it enough time. I think

23:12

about it as laps around the track, give

23:15

it another lap. And look, if it does get to the point

23:17

where you have to walk away, because there's gonna

23:19

be situations where you may not be successful in

23:21

this place at this time, and you may

23:23

have to pivot. It may be the right time

23:25

to jump and to do something different, but just

23:27

don't give up.

23:29

I don't know about you, but I'm perpetually online.

23:31

And I think there's probably a lot of people that are listening

23:33

right now that spend a lot of time on Instagram and TikTok

23:35

and LinkedIn and Twitter. And they're

23:37

observing all these people's big wins and successes

23:40

and then obviously judging their own.

23:42

This is even harder for folks that work in corporate

23:45

environments where there's more red tape, there's more structure

23:47

and systems in place that don't necessarily prevent

23:49

you but guide you in a little bit of a way along

23:52

your career growth in your journey. And it doesn't necessarily

23:54

happen as fast as if you were to work within a startup or if

23:56

you're like your own business owner.

23:58

What advice do you have for people? that

24:00

are having a hard time with

24:02

practicing that patience. You

24:05

know, it's interesting that you bring up social media.

24:07

So I made a decision that Twitter,

24:09

Instagram, things that were a bit more social

24:12

for me that I just wouldn't engage. But I

24:14

knew that I couldn't fall behind, so I used LinkedIn.

24:17

But I do try to moderate how

24:19

much of that I take in. Everything that you

24:21

see is not real. I think that that's really

24:24

important. Some people are just better

24:26

at branding themselves. That could

24:28

be the challenge. Do I know how to talk about

24:30

my wins? Do I know how to talk about my successes?

24:32

Do I know how to talk about myself in that way?

24:35

And it's not an easy muscle for everyone

24:37

to flex. And so I'm going to go back

24:39

to giving yourself that grace. You know,

24:41

and maybe this is because I have an 8-by-bow and it's just

24:44

where I am today, Avery. And if we talk next year,

24:46

maybe I'd have a different answer. But

24:48

yeah, I have to go back there because

24:51

it's not all real. It's not all real.

24:53

Yeah, and I think that that's really important. I

24:56

oftentimes hear the quote that I feel

24:58

like it's a bit of a trope, though, I'll be honest. But like, comparison

25:01

is the thief of joy. I think that that's true.

25:04

But not entirely. Sometimes comparison can

25:06

be a really healthy motivator, right?

25:08

I like the frame that you've shared about this is to give

25:10

yourself grace. Because I think it holds space for you to

25:12

be motivated by someone that's doing really well,

25:15

that you think someone that maybe is doing something similar

25:17

to you and they've achieved a certain level of success.

25:19

I love that idea of like giving yourself grace when

25:21

you do come across those images of people doing really

25:24

well and maybe you haven't achieved it as fast

25:26

or quickly as they have. So we're

25:28

coming near to the end of the conversation. I

25:30

wanted to ask you a little bit about success

25:33

and actually how we can help other women achieve

25:35

success at work. Do we sponsor them? Are

25:38

there like formal sponsorship programs

25:40

that we can build? What advice do you

25:43

have for women listening that are wanting to engage

25:45

in supporting more women and their success

25:47

at work?

25:48

So I'm going to give two answers, one the formal

25:50

answer and one the informal answer.

25:52

Formally, yes, absolutely. We have to build

25:54

the programs. We have to make sure

25:56

that women aren't falling in between

25:58

the cracks in sponsorship.

25:59

is really important, right? We know

26:02

that mentorship is important, but sponsorship,

26:04

having someone in the rooms that you're

26:06

not in saying your name, having

26:08

someone who knows you intimately,

26:11

right? Professionally, so that

26:13

they can help guide your career,

26:15

so that they can open doors for you, very specific

26:18

doors is

26:18

really important. But I'm gonna lean into

26:20

the informal answer. Every morning

26:23

at 8.45, I reserve this time

26:25

block between 8.45 and 9.15, so that I can take phone calls, or

26:30

I can schedule phone calls that aren't necessarily

26:33

work calls.

26:34

And I do this because there are,

26:36

for the most part, women who

26:38

just need to bend my ear, who just

26:40

need to know that, hey, if

26:42

I reach out to her, it could be through LinkedIn, it

26:45

may be through a friend of a friend, but that

26:47

I'm gonna respond, and that I'm gonna be helpful.

26:49

Help another woman, be there,

26:51

answer the call, give them the time

26:54

that they need. That is such

26:57

a beautiful place for us to leave this

26:59

conversation, ah.

27:00

Before we dive into our in or

27:03

out segment, we do it for every single conversation.

27:05

Is there anything you'd like to leave folks with?

27:08

I do think that we live in a very individual,

27:10

ballistic type of society, where

27:13

we're always pressing forward, we're looking

27:15

for perfection. I just don't believe

27:17

that that's how we move forward. I don't

27:19

think that that's how we press forward. And so that's what I would

27:21

say to our listeners. If you're in a position where

27:23

you could help someone, where you can pull someone along, you

27:25

could pull someone up,

27:27

be that person. Every conversation

27:29

we have, I like to ask people their

27:31

thoughts on what's in and what's out as

27:33

it relates to the workplace, primarily.

27:36

So, in or out, checking emails

27:38

the moment you wake up in the morning.

27:40

That's in for me, it's just what I do,

27:42

I've always done it. There's a person on my team

27:44

that called me inbox zero, because

27:47

I'd never have an unanswered email.

27:49

Wow, so maybe that's the key to inbox zero.

27:51

I haven't been at inbox zero ever. I

27:54

don't think that ever in my life I've achieved that. Okay,

27:56

DEI training.

27:58

I think it's in, it's a part of it. of the work.

28:01

Yeah. Okay. I was nervous about

28:03

that one because we offer her a DI training at Bloom.

28:05

I'll be honest with you,

28:07

whole business thrown out immediately. It's in. Definitely

28:10

in. Definitely in. Making

28:13

new friends online.

28:14

It's out for me. Oh,

28:17

look, I have some really great friends.

28:20

I've picked up some really great friends along the

28:22

way. And yeah, I may make a friend or two online,

28:24

I guess. But for me, I don't have a lot of

28:26

time. And so I really

28:28

want to give a

28:30

lot of time. And I'm talking about real friends. I'm not talking about

28:32

what we call friends on

28:35

social media, but I really want to have the time

28:37

to be with them, to build with them. And if I

28:41

stretch myself too thin, I don't get to do that. So that's out for me.

28:44

Yeah. I'm just going to say this

28:46

because I'm a big believer in making friends with people online. But what

28:49

I found is that, and

28:52

this is like, I don't even know, Liz might cut this out. Liz, by the way, for

28:54

folks listening to

28:56

this podcast, but I just feel like I have

28:59

a lot of friends. Like I have close

29:01

friends. I do, but like social media

29:03

friends, if they do ever translate to

29:05

real in-person friendships, they're like the best friendships

29:08

you can find. But for the most part, a

29:10

lot of that doesn't happen. You're so used to the

29:12

habit of being friends with these people online.

29:14

And it's so funny because I asked this question to someone

29:17

yesterday when we recorded and they said, yes,

29:19

but I was talking to my mom about friendship. And

29:21

I don't know. It's just interesting because it's like, sometimes

29:24

I feel like online friendships can feel really one-sided.

29:26

It's a static conversation, right?

29:29

Sometimes it responds. Sometimes you send them a meme, but

29:31

it's not really like a dynamic, all

29:33

encompassing, holistic friendship.

29:35

Well, and I think it's generational too, by the way,

29:37

just a concept of meeting friends online. I

29:40

got to say, it's not something that

29:42

I've really thought about. You meet friends in college,

29:44

you know,

29:47

but you know, maybe I should be more open

29:49

to it. Maybe I think

29:51

I should be more closed off to it. It's not that I don't

29:53

have friends. It's a lot of people that I genuinely

29:56

consider close friends, but I was like, I don't even have this person's

29:58

cell phone number because we... only DM

30:00

on Instagram.

30:02

That is so odd to me.

30:06

So anyway, okay, next in or out, failing

30:09

in public. It's funny, the first

30:11

thing that I thought of when you asked that question was falling

30:13

in public. But

30:15

failing in public. No,

30:18

like failing, like if you experience a failure,

30:20

like do you share it publicly or do you navigate

30:22

it privately? I

30:23

navigate it privately, but I do think that

30:25

there's a certain energy that we put out when

30:27

we bring our problems into

30:30

the public, if it's not necessary.

30:32

Now, if that's a way that you heal and it's

30:35

a way that you process, then that's another thing.

30:37

But for me, I generally do that in private.

30:39

So it would be an out for me.

30:41

Okay, that's fair. And my

30:43

final in or out question is public

30:46

apologies. We've

30:48

been seeing a lot of these lately. And I'm saying on an individual

30:51

basis, not based on from a company perspective.

30:54

It's in, it's always in number one, I

30:56

come from politics and politicians are always

30:58

apologizing in public, right? Always.

31:01

This is my had to ask.

31:03

But then also, it is so cathartic

31:06

when I've had these full circle moments when

31:08

people apologize to other people in public,

31:11

something that could have happened in private. Maybe

31:13

it's something that happened in public, but they publicly

31:15

come back and they humble themselves and they

31:17

apologize. Nothing better.

31:19

Nothing better. Yep. Amazing.

31:22

Well, thank you so much. It's been a career

31:24

milestone for me to have this opportunity to chat with

31:26

you and learn more about your career. So thank you for your

31:28

energy. And I know folks listening learned

31:31

a lot from you today. So thank

31:33

you. Thank you so much for having me, Avery.

31:40

Thank you for listening to my chat with La Davia. Selfishly,

31:42

I loved having the opportunity to chat with a

31:44

peer I admire. Come back next week for

31:47

another episode of Girl Boss Radio. And in

31:49

the meantime, please rate this episode or leave a comment

31:51

to let us know what you thought. As always,

31:53

this podcast is produced by Liz Goober and Victoria

31:55

Christie and edited by Diego Domina.

31:58

Until next time, keep looming.