0:06

Welcome to Glamrs Trash. This is a celebrity

0:08

memoir podcast where we dive into all of

0:10

the glamour and all of the trash. If

0:12

you have ever referenced Mariah Carey in therapy,

0:14

then this is probably the podcast for you.

0:17

I'm your host Chelsea Devontas. I'm a

0:19

TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes

0:22

I'm in stuff too. Today

0:24

we are book clubbing Margaret Cho's

0:26

very first memoir. You

0:29

know Margaret Cho from her very

0:31

famous sitcom All American Girl. More

0:33

recently the movie Fire Island. She has been

0:36

in so many TV shows and so many

0:38

standup specials. It's too many to name, wildly

0:41

famous, but also she was on an

0:43

episode of Not Dead Yet, which

0:45

is a show I wrote on. And when you're a writer, you

0:47

get to recommend people. I got to say we should have Margaret

0:49

Cho and everyone was like, oh my God, of course. And

0:52

she was on Not Dead Yet and she was just so lovely

0:54

and wonderful and funny. Now today we

0:56

are book clubbing her very first memoir

0:59

written in 2001 titled I'm the One

1:02

That I Want. It was a

1:04

national bestseller. It is so funny, so poetic,

1:07

and so dark. And as a listener

1:09

of this podcast, you know, I love

1:12

the dark memoirs the most. I love them

1:14

dark. And Margaret's quickly became a

1:16

favorite after I read it. And

1:19

her book was the subject

1:21

of the very, very, very,

1:24

very first live Zoom show

1:26

we ever did for this

1:28

podcast. Another amazing charity organization set it

1:31

up to raise money. I

1:33

had no idea what I was doing and accidentally

1:35

set it on a holiday. I

1:38

don't remember which one. I think maybe Memorial Day. Unsure.

1:41

Only 30 people attended, but those

1:43

30 OG cookies got to see Margaret

1:46

Cho herself who joined us on the Zoom. The

1:48

audio is still up. It was so great. But

1:50

because we were talking to Margaret, we didn't really

1:52

get to talk about the book. And

1:54

my guest, it was amazing. We were

1:57

like, man, there's so much we wanted to talk about

1:59

the book. So for the past like four years,

2:01

I've always wanted to do a full episode and

2:03

really cover the book. And my guest for the

2:05

show is amazing. Let's just get into it. I

2:08

have a Korean name. My Korean name is Moran,

2:10

which is a pretty name, but you have to

2:12

understand, I've heard my mother scream it from across

2:14

the hills. Moran! Moran!

2:21

What? I'm

2:27

sure you can relate. When

2:30

I get famous enough, I want to have my own fragrance

2:32

and have it be called Moran. I have

2:34

the abs, the old Asian women coming out

2:36

of French doors, like in

2:38

the Ego East ad. Moran!

2:45

Our guest today was born in South Korea

2:47

and raised in the Pacific Northwest. She now

2:49

lives in Atlanta with her family and has

2:51

quickly gotten accustomed to saying, y'all. Her

2:53

over 20 year career includes roles in

2:56

theater, TV, film, voiceover, and a passion

2:58

for teaching at the university level. She

3:00

loves to cook stuff, craft stuff, and

3:02

talk about lots of stuff. She's a

3:04

stepmom, an adoptive mom, and a birth

3:07

mom. So always have snacks in her

3:09

bag. Please welcome Joy Osmansky. Hello! I'm

3:11

so happy to be here. Your bio

3:13

is so fun. Was that really four

3:16

years ago? Because that's bracing. It's

3:20

tough, isn't it? Yeah. It

3:22

is four years ago. Yeah, it's really painful. Okay. And

3:25

it was gotten, but it lived so vividly

3:27

in my memory. It was truly surreal and

3:29

wonderful on so many levels. We were in

3:31

a moment in time where the pandemic had

3:33

just started and Zoom shows had just

3:36

sprung up and it was like, what? And

3:38

then we did it and it was so crazy. It

3:41

was Yumi and Margaret Cho. And

3:43

Margaret was in her parents' house. That's

3:45

right. And she talked about her parents in the

3:47

memoir. You could hear them in the background and

3:50

it was like, it was just very much like

3:52

a, oh my God, this is, this is real

3:54

life. Yeah. So Joy, I

3:56

introduce my guests with the story of Howie

3:58

first met. I know I'm sure. I told it on

4:00

that show, but I'm going to tell it again. I

4:02

stole you from Yasser. You came

4:05

to our porch. You had painted

4:07

a watercolor portrait of

4:09

our needy quarantine dog, which

4:12

immediately, I was like,

4:14

oh, I take a knee now. You're

4:16

my queen. And then we had

4:18

a conversation about open adoption, almost immediately versus

4:20

a closed adoption. And it was, I don't

4:23

know, seven minutes into meeting you in person.

4:25

And I was like, oh, this will be

4:27

a very close friend of mine for the

4:29

rest of my life. So I just love

4:32

you so much. And I'm so glad you

4:34

would take two times in your life to

4:36

podcast with me. OK, so Joy,

4:38

what was your, I know the answer to this,

4:40

but I'm making you say on this podcast, what

4:43

was your experience of Margaret Cho growing up

4:45

in the zeitgeist? I mean, she was

4:47

it. She

4:49

was the only one. And

4:52

even then, I remember being only

4:54

sort of peripherably aware, because I don't

4:56

think she and I are that far

4:59

apart from age. And

5:01

as a kid, I certainly don't, I

5:03

didn't have anyone, she didn't come along and

5:05

do her sitcom until I was, I

5:08

think, at my last year of college. I

5:10

think. It was 1994. And

5:13

she was only 25 years old. So she

5:15

was very young when she finally became

5:17

famous. My god, yeah, so 1994, I would have been, I

5:20

guess, in my first year of college. And I

5:23

do remember distinctly this concept

5:26

of this all Asian cast. And

5:29

I remember thinking it might

5:31

have been about aliens. Do you know what I mean? It

5:33

just seemed completely bizarre, because

5:36

it was. It was a complete anomaly. The

5:38

internet will say it's the first Korean-American

5:40

sitcom on television. And I'm like, that's

5:42

even too niche. It was kind of the

5:44

first Asian representation, not the very first.

5:46

There's like two other, I looked

5:49

it up, there's like two other instances of like there was

5:51

an Asian lead on a sitcom. But like this was so

5:54

different, where it's like multiple Asian leads centered

5:56

around an Asian storyline. It was about

5:58

Korean-Americans. Yes. And it

6:00

was selling itself as, I mean, literally

6:02

the all American girl. Like it was

6:05

trying to encapsulate that experience, which

6:07

is even now, I think would be

6:09

really ambitious. Impossible. Impossible.

6:12

What is that? When

6:15

this episode first came out, I got so many

6:17

messages from cookies being like, I loved that show.

6:19

That was one of my favorite shows. But you

6:21

know, when Margaret talks about it in the book

6:24

and we'll get into it, you know, it's a

6:26

really painful experience. And she endures all the horrific

6:28

press being like, you know, these are

6:30

stereotypes and this is terrible. And it's canceled after

6:32

one season of 19 episodes. So were

6:35

you aware of that when it was on? Like

6:37

this show is getting a lot of hate? No,

6:39

I don't think I had anything, any

6:42

awareness about that. Also, I was so

6:44

far from my own path as an

6:46

actor that I wasn't dialed in to

6:49

business related stuff at all. I was

6:51

just a passive viewer like everyone else.

6:54

Isn't it so funny that like so many people have

6:56

an experience of that show is like, I just loved

6:58

it. But, you know, when you're the creator, Margaret

7:00

had to go through literal hell and get

7:03

and read all these articles about it that

7:05

were just so painful. Yeah, she just

7:07

had to almost die. You know, no,

7:09

no, no, no, no, no, that's all you have

7:12

to do to break ground is just face mortality

7:14

directly. I'm God. Yeah.

7:16

Yeah. I mean, it is

7:18

it's it's a really, really sad, dark

7:21

book, which I relate

7:23

to. Yeah, I know. I love how

7:26

dark it is. Yeah. Yeah.

7:29

OK, so my first

7:31

experience of Margaret show was the shoes music

7:33

video. I don't know if you remember, it's

7:35

one of the very first music videos to

7:38

ever go out of music video comedy video.

7:49

This is wrong. And

7:53

I was like obsessed with that video. I was like,

7:55

what is this? And Margaret show was in it. And

7:57

then she later did like another video with like the

7:59

same guy. And like that was my listen,

8:02

I grew up in a small town. I didn't have a lot going

8:04

on in the world So it did take me until

8:06

shoes to to know Margaret. Well, I think

8:08

I mean I think I was even later

8:10

I think it was her stand-up special because

8:12

the first memory I have of her is

8:15

her screaming her own name into the mic

8:17

as her mother More yeah,

8:19

yeah, like that's my first clear memory

8:21

of her Okay, and you

8:23

know what we're gonna play that her joke as

8:26

as our opening clip now Because

8:29

it's hilarious it is it

8:31

is very funny. So let's dive in there's

8:33

I really really really want to talk about

8:35

a lot of the Like

8:37

stuff with her sitcom that we didn't get to talk

8:39

about. We also have to talk about her childhood, which

8:42

is brutal

8:45

Yeah, the movie. I mean the the

8:48

amount of cruelty and of course I love

8:50

that she is very distinct about how the

8:52

most cruelty she experienced was within the Korean

8:54

American community Yeah, you know,

8:57

yeah, it wasn't like a bunch of little white kids. It

8:59

was it was people who look like her

9:02

Yeah, and I mean and later it will be

9:04

I believe it's like Lottie and Torina or something

9:06

She says her first memory is of her grandparents

9:08

all circled around her calling her ugly because she

9:10

hasn't washed her face That's her

9:12

first memory. So Her

9:15

parents are in San Francisco. Yes, and

9:18

her parents have her and

9:20

she said My father didn't

9:22

know how to break it to my mom

9:24

that he was to be deported three days

9:26

after I was born So

9:28

he conveniently avoided the subject. He didn't lie

9:30

He simply withheld the truth and at the

9:32

last minute left her holding the bag or

9:35

as it were me And

9:38

so she's abandoned very early by

9:40

her father. He's not part of

9:42

her childhood He's just really

9:44

around and yet again The book is dedicated

9:46

to her parents and when we zoomed with

9:48

her She had moved her parents into her

9:50

house and like forgiveness runs in her veins

9:53

Yeah, no, I think she has

9:55

this incredible ability to telescope out

9:57

from an event which is a

10:00

very rare thing. I mean, I... Yeah.

10:02

And then to also have what sounds

10:04

like her mother kind of reinforced like,

10:06

I hate your daddy, like this concept

10:08

of her mother also hating her father

10:10

or resenting him for that. That

10:13

can be an almost impossible thing to shake

10:15

as a child and then as an adult.

10:17

That's really powerful. Yeah. One of the times

10:19

she finds her mom crying, she hugs her.

10:21

She's three years old and

10:24

she says, don't worry, I'll be your

10:26

mommy. Which, you know, there's, I

10:28

don't know, 19 therapy books

10:30

on like when you have to parent your parent. Yeah.

10:32

That are in that sentence alone

10:34

and it gets so

10:37

brutal. So yeah, so her

10:39

name is Moron. So

10:42

of course all the kids in school call

10:44

her Moron. Oh God. It's just, and

10:47

it's such a rejection of

10:49

her culture. It's a rejection of her parental

10:51

choices in her life. It's just, it's a

10:53

rejection of everything. Yeah. Yeah,

10:55

absolutely. You know, she has this

10:58

horrible incident. Oh, it's Lottie and

11:00

Connie who were her friends. Yeah.

11:02

And then they go to camp.

11:05

Oh, the camp. The camp section nearly drove

11:07

me insane. Like... And early you're like, how

11:09

am I going to keep going? I

11:12

just, to hear about a

11:14

child being treated that cruelly.

11:16

Like all I know is that if I

11:18

found out one of my children went to

11:21

camp and kids put pine

11:23

cones and literal shit in their sleeping

11:25

bag, I would be at that camp

11:27

so fast. I would have those children

11:29

by the ears. I would have the

11:32

camp director by the ear. I would

11:34

be livid. Yeah. Yeah. And yet she's

11:36

alone. She's alone. Like she doesn't have,

11:38

she doesn't have a joy to show

11:40

up and be like, everybody's life ends

11:42

today. Instead she just has to endure

11:45

them calling her a Moron and a

11:47

sleeping bag full of shit. Oh

11:49

God. Yeah. And this feeling of

11:52

like just raw

11:54

survival and somehow the concept

11:57

of how you parent, it could be argued

11:59

that it's swung. and completely too far

12:01

the other direction. But like, I certainly,

12:04

when I was a kid, there was an element of like,

12:06

toughen up. And like, what's brutal to

12:08

you will make you stronger, which we now know

12:11

is a bunch of shit. That's not true. Yeah,

12:13

no. But as brutal to you, we'll then show

12:15

up in your own relationships later and ruin them

12:17

for you. Yes, we'll then make

12:19

you highly dysfunctional later. Exactly.

12:22

But I mean, this, and I think

12:24

from a lot of cultures, not just

12:26

Korean American cultures, but that like stiff

12:28

upper lip ideology of

12:31

like, if you can hold your own and prove yourself

12:33

and get through it, then yeah, that will bolster you

12:35

later. And no. Yeah,

12:37

no, no, not at all. And this

12:39

section I wanna read about that camp

12:41

incident in hindsight is indicative of why

12:43

I love this memoir so much. My

12:46

brother remained friendly with Lottie and Connie

12:48

for years afterward. It makes me

12:50

feel betrayed that he is close to them, but at

12:52

least it gives me an opportunity to find out how

12:55

they are doing. In some way, I

12:57

suppose I miss them because I can't seem to

12:59

let go of their memory. I

13:01

wish our friendship could have been allowed to grow and

13:03

change and carry on into adulthood. They

13:06

were horrible to me, but kids are like that sometimes.

13:08

I wanna forgive and be loving and try to see

13:10

it from their point of view. My brother says

13:13

that even now, they always ask how I'm doing

13:15

and are genuinely happy when he tells them she's

13:17

just fine. I turned my

13:19

Korean name, Moran, into one of my most

13:21

lasting and memorable routines. I portray my mother

13:23

screaming it through a set of French doors,

13:26

Moran, why would you name your daughter?

13:29

It's like calling your firstborn ass hill. Now people

13:31

call it out to me at shows, Moran, Moran,

13:33

Moran, and it feels like love. The

13:35

cowboy sleeping bag sits in the closet

13:37

at my parents' house after 20 years

13:39

and a lifetime of youth. It still

13:41

smells faintly of sap. I mean, it's

13:43

devastating. It's devastating. But it

13:46

was like, she spoke to this

13:48

thing where I had two sets

13:50

of two girls who were vicious

13:52

to me. And in seventh grade,

13:54

one was smearing hamburger all over my locker during

13:56

the lunch break. And Then the second

13:58

one came later in high school. The And and

14:00

we all society each other in the sandlot.

14:03

as you do inmates. I do think about

14:05

them a lot. Of am a

14:07

lot like when say so came around first people

14:09

a looks up. And so. Why?

14:13

Why is that? I love to see Articulated

14:15

that is a luxury ice in a way.

14:17

You like care about them more than other

14:19

people like. I've never wanted to know more

14:22

in my life how someone is doing than

14:24

those fucking bitches. To start, you're right I

14:26

I had an altercation and a high school.

14:29

And. It was one thousand percent my fault.

14:31

I got slapped in the face. And

14:33

if. If you're out there can bury.

14:38

It was so my fault and I

14:40

felt terrible about it for the rest

14:42

of my life. I've always wondered how

14:45

she's doing because it was such a

14:47

i was punching down and it was

14:49

absolutely something to see how that perfect

14:51

wrote to get upset about. And yeah,

14:54

the people that you have those kinds

14:56

of little wars with. The.

14:58

Getting grained in you? I don't know why,

15:00

but they really do. They. Really? did

15:02

they become your most important person in

15:04

many ways? And yeah, I've said this

15:06

on the podcast before, but I didn't

15:08

go to my friend druze birthday party

15:10

in second grade and later it becomes

15:13

a whole thing and he moves away

15:15

and I just I've. Always been like true.

15:17

If you're out there like I am so

15:19

fucking sorry. I didn't go because another little

15:21

girl told me that like everyone would hate

15:23

me as I glance. Yeah, this

15:25

monstrous monsters savior. Well, children are often

15:27

monstrous and but a But I'd make

15:30

sense because these are the years

15:32

we you're trying to sort where you

15:34

go. Yeah. Right And and

15:36

and all the social pressures are

15:38

so overwhelming. and and you don't?

15:40

you don't have any judgments. There's

15:42

no, there's no context. And

15:44

be like feel like. Well.

15:47

Not for everyone but civically to me

15:49

because I still be discussing it with

15:51

my therapists seem like came to me

15:53

he to feel like safety so sad

15:56

when has the like you say you're

15:58

safe and it's anyone doesn't like you

16:00

you now I'm safe like anything to

16:02

happen. See it which is like you know, not true and

16:04

not as a concept but. I think that haven't for

16:06

a lot of kids like every nice like me or

16:08

something bad is going to happen. Oh I agree is

16:10

at when I knew that there were people in school

16:13

who actively didn't like me with it was wasteful or

16:15

whatever it was like an abyss. I. Just

16:17

yeah, ts Eliot come out of

16:19

buying it was terrifying. Yeah

16:21

yeah I remember talking about this a little

16:23

bit but is it is so t it's

16:26

so deep and you have little kids now

16:28

I bet it's wild to think lakes who

16:30

are they dealing with like at school and

16:32

homeland enough stuff starts. so like the politics.

16:35

Is instance. Before. They

16:37

talk. Slaves. A female politics

16:39

man and it's really hard to control

16:41

yourself. I mean if and times and

16:43

the more I saw rural Toddlers has

16:45

like on taken off that a we're

16:48

going lake and yeah and a three

16:50

year old girls and like not mean

16:52

that three year old parents mean the

16:54

seats assess, assess assess assess. As

16:57

a disadvantage for it's still very sad, Dell,

16:59

like you said you're there was no, it

17:01

doesn't go away, it doesn't ever though the.

17:04

Yeah. Well, some some know right choice

17:06

precious metal as it's see turned it

17:08

into a wonderful career. You may turn

17:10

it into a wonderful memoir and a

17:12

when you compare it into a wonderful

17:15

for and look at us now yob,

17:17

Syria, Isis Monetize that's a pain says.

17:19

Okay so the next piece I really

17:21

loved and please pipe in with anything

17:23

if I'm skipping but sir Chapter five

17:25

is titled on been a fag hag

17:27

and he said I am fortunate enough

17:29

to have been a fag hag for

17:31

most of my life. A fag. As

17:33

a woman who prefers. The company of

17:36

gay men, the marriage of to

17:38

derogatory terms sag and hags symbolizing

17:40

the union of the world's most

17:42

popular objects of scorn. Homosexual and

17:45

woman creates a moniker that most

17:47

of those who were at find

17:49

it in offensive, possibly because it

17:52

smacks of solidarity. And I

17:54

love reading this because it was written in

17:56

two thousand one and I do think there's

17:58

arguments now that could. be like,

18:00

no, we're not gonna, I mean, not,

18:02

I do think. I know there are arguments like

18:04

don't say that, don't use that, don't whatever, but

18:06

it really was a term of pride. And

18:09

I even have friends who have written a script that

18:11

had a play on those words and they're like, maybe

18:13

we shouldn't use it anymore. And I was like, if

18:16

it's yours to use, it is yours

18:18

to speak about. You know? And

18:20

it's not others to use, but yeah. And then

18:22

she writes this whole chapter. What'd you think of,

18:24

I don't know if you remember this whole piece,

18:27

there's a whole paragraph I'm gonna read about it.

18:29

I loved, I love this chapter. And on that

18:31

first page, I underline that passage because

18:33

I so understand this. The gay man

18:35

in your life is not concerned with

18:37

your youth and beauty. He wants

18:39

to know your soul. He loves you for

18:41

your courage and intellect, whether you are lovely or

18:43

plain, you're beautiful to him for these qualities and

18:45

many more. And I

18:48

so relate to that. And I think that

18:50

is why so many women are drawn

18:53

to that quality in gay men.

18:55

Oh yeah, and I mean, I've definitely played

18:57

this role my entire life and I will

19:00

play it every day. And it's my favorite

19:02

place to be. It's like, yeah, it feels

19:04

like home. It feels like safety. And yeah,

19:07

she wrote, we fag hags love drama and

19:09

our skilled thespians on the stage of life.

19:12

We also crave scandal and gossip. Be warned,

19:14

we don't keep secrets. We harvest them. Of

19:16

course we do. We know when and where

19:18

loyalty is required. And in these cases, we

19:21

are true to our beloved. Bitchiness is always

19:23

appreciated. And insulting others behind their back is

19:25

a favorite pastime. This is a way for

19:28

us to repay the world for the way

19:30

we are treated. Women and

19:32

gay men have long been considered second-class

19:34

citizens by the dominant culture. How do we

19:36

keep our strength? By talking shit

19:39

about those who think they can oppress

19:41

us. Here with one caveat given by

19:43

a particularly elegant and flamboyant gentleman, fight

19:45

fire with flame. Do not

19:48

underestimate the power of our wagging tongues.

19:50

Cross us and you will get burned,

19:52

not licked. I was

19:54

like, anthem, anthem, church, church. It

19:57

is an anthem. It is and it makes me

19:59

feel better. It makes so much sense

20:01

because, and I think in particular being

20:03

a woman of color and being a gay man, it's

20:05

like women of color

20:08

can't escape the judgment. We look

20:10

it, we are it. And so

20:12

I've always really connected to any

20:14

expression of gayness that is super

20:17

visible, any expression of

20:19

queerness that is super visible. I've

20:21

always just been like, yes, yes,

20:23

that, just because it's such a

20:26

defiant thing to do. Yeah,

20:28

it's, if RuPaul's The Library is open, we're going to get

20:30

there. We're going to give out awards for the bitchiest comments.

20:33

It's shade as an art form. It's

20:36

a culture created in response to being

20:39

othered and creating such

20:41

a powerful culture that you become

20:43

the power holders for a brief moment, for

20:46

a brief insult. Exactly, exactly. And

20:49

it's incredible. It's so powerful. My

20:51

God. And I love how she gets

20:53

political in the book. So she'll be talking about stories

20:56

and then she'll stop down and deliver a speech, which

20:58

I love. But then in the

21:00

next chapter, you know, a

21:02

trigger warning here for sexual assault,

21:05

she is 14 years old and

21:08

a 21 year old is like, let me give

21:10

you a ride home. Doesn't takes her to his

21:13

house and he rapes her.

21:17

And she says, I was in shock

21:19

because I didn't know him. He was on top of

21:21

me and it happened so quickly. I didn't say yes,

21:23

but I didn't say no either. It

21:25

was like a flash. And

21:27

she said during it, I silently thanked my

21:30

family for making me go to long church

21:32

services because that taught me how to leave

21:34

my body at a young age. Those

21:36

skills really do come in handy. You end up

21:38

using them in life, not like algebra. Then

21:41

when he was, you know, more details. And then

21:44

she said lower, we didn't call it rape

21:46

back then to us. Rape was what happened

21:48

to hitchhikers and to single women living in

21:50

ground floor apartments by men and ski masks.

21:53

This were not guys we knew who dated

21:56

the popular girls at our school. We

21:58

Thought that what happened was. And romance ravished

22:00

mess. It felt wrong to me, but I

22:02

still defines it in those terms because those

22:04

were all we had. And that

22:07

that was her virginity. story of God.

22:09

And that passage I highlighted just that

22:11

we thought what happened with Passion Romance

22:13

Officers? I did. I remember thinking that

22:16

and being said, the steady diet of

22:18

eighties movies. You. Know which

22:20

completely romanticized assault. And

22:23

had a view to do with

22:25

consent And it was all about

22:27

usually assists white male. Inserting

22:30

himself literally and figuratively into a young

22:32

woman's life whether she wanted it or

22:34

not. I used to love and still

22:36

the that movie. Say Anything with John

22:38

Hughes. Ah ha, I only Sky I

22:40

oh nice guy who is writing a

22:42

memoir. Oh my God. Oh my God.

22:44

Yeah. I interviewed her to sell it's

22:46

Coming it's core. Okay, keep going. Oh

22:48

that's can be fascinating. But. My even

22:51

just that part it which was the height

22:53

of romance when I was at he is

22:55

or was he goes to her house and

22:57

stands outside her house without boombox. Yeah. That's.

23:00

Really Okay. We

23:02

really because I I know you're saying but

23:05

where do you draw the line? I haven't

23:07

seen the movie recently and us to. Discuss.

23:10

This well but like know be you right? Where

23:12

is the line? Like if someone held up a

23:15

boombox. And I like Sam I do like hi.

23:17

Hi, try harder! love it your brothers address

23:20

but if I told them no multiple times

23:22

I'd be kind. Of

23:24

us. And I think I saw them

23:26

no one side be like throwing rocks

23:28

at them at this point my life.

23:30

and maybe maybe in the on paper

23:32

accounting of that incident. That's what it

23:34

would look like within the within the

23:36

context of the movie. It was slowest,

23:38

Silva Romantic. Oh My. God. Yeah. that's

23:40

what we were brought up on and.

23:43

The. Images we were given of romance were

23:45

about being taken. You know, like all those romance

23:47

cover. I mean I would go into the library

23:49

and like sneak off for my mom and like

23:51

find those books and just look at the covers

23:53

and. Because it

23:55

was chest about the ravished and one

23:57

was old and of draped and mademoiselle.

24:00

We. Sell. Out of control. It

24:02

isn't establish the. Dallas.

24:04

A concept he was passionate.

24:07

But. Was I it's theme

24:09

for any then leads to.

24:12

Comedy later in life where she says

24:14

comedy help me pull away from self

24:16

destruction at least at the beginning. Iam

24:19

side oh my god and

24:21

she's Iam. She said

24:23

I thought if I could just be allowed to go

24:25

on stage and make people laugh every night that I

24:27

wouldn't care if I made money or became famous, just

24:30

the ability to do it would be payment. And thus

24:32

I don't know if I feel that way anymore. I

24:34

have become jaded in my own way and I love

24:36

the material success that I have been so lucky to.

24:38

Receive that the way it all started

24:40

With my intense love of comedy in

24:42

everything that went with this. So.

24:45

As you were yes, you read beautifully about how

24:47

comedy saved her life which is how I feel

24:49

about comedy as well as a how you also

24:51

feel about act scene and are yeah, I think

24:53

I don't know how to survive without it. I

24:55

don't know how people survive without. They do. I.

24:58

Don't know how? Yes, I don't know. And they have

25:00

other things that are. Probably

25:02

healthier. Than

25:05

out there survive that are centered

25:07

around total uncertainty and projects, and

25:09

I'm so I'm sure they do,

25:11

but I cannot imagine doing anything

25:13

else as brutal as it is.

25:16

And I understand it as a form of

25:18

escape. but more often than not for me

25:20

it's been a form of confrontation with various

25:22

things That's a beautiful way to put it

25:24

in on any light. I get it. Oh

25:26

yea I get to be someone else, but

25:28

in that else is always me. So like

25:30

sooner or later I'm gonna have to. Face.

25:32

Whatever it is. But yeah, I think it's

25:35

interesting that at the beginning she did see

25:37

comedy as an escape, but then I of

25:39

course came to also understand that very transactional

25:41

nature of the business and that that was

25:44

inevitable. Yeah, and that and that it becomes

25:46

her. Cheaper. In her punisher.

25:49

Soon. Later. Okay

25:51

when he sees a quick break and then will come

25:53

right back into the Africa. Siblings.

25:57

sites are unavoidable for what is

25:59

every you had was under a

26:01

microscope on a global scale. That's

26:03

the reality for brothers Prince William and

26:06

Prince Harry. They were each other's closest

26:08

friends and allies since the death of

26:10

their mother. But that all began to

26:12

crack as they married and took wildly

26:14

different approaches to their royal duties. Wondery's

26:17

podcast, Disintelles, is hosted by comedians

26:19

Sydney Battle and Matt Bellassai. Each

26:22

episode unpacks one of pop culture's

26:24

most iconic celebrity feuds, and they

26:26

recently took a deeper look into

26:28

the real reason William versus Harry

26:31

started. It's actually much bigger

26:33

than these two brothers, stretching back into

26:35

the history of the British monarchy. Did

26:38

their feuds start with the royal

26:40

family's mistreatment of Meghan Markle, or

26:42

was it something that started much

26:44

earlier? Follow Disintelles on the

26:46

Wondery app or wherever you get your

26:48

podcasts. I started this podcast

26:50

because I have been obsessed with

26:53

memoirs my entire life, and I can't

26:55

believe it, but I got to write my own and

26:57

it comes out on June 4th and you can order

26:59

it right now. The book, you

27:01

know, I was asked to describe it

27:03

and I said, it is an absolutely

27:05

harrowing, traumatic memoir, but funny.

27:09

So if that sounds good to you, order it. Let

27:11

me give you some topics that are in this memoir.

27:13

We talk about how I got into Hollywood, all those

27:15

nitty gritty details people usually skip. I put all those

27:17

in there because you know, I'm not skipping that stuff.

27:20

How I got to be John Stewart's head writer. I

27:22

got some celebrity stories. I talked some trash for sure.

27:25

And I talk about really the most haunting,

27:27

harrowing things that have ever happened to me.

27:29

And really everything I look for when

27:31

I read a memoir, I put

27:34

into my own. I gave this book everything I had.

27:37

Each chapter title is a different woman's name

27:39

in my life. Some are heroes, some

27:41

are motherfucking villains. But you know what? A

27:43

villain and a hero? What are both of

27:45

those things? A leading role. And we do

27:47

love women in our leading roles. So pre-order

27:49

the book, it matters a lot. I linked

27:51

everywhere that you can buy it in the

27:53

show notes, but you know, go anywhere. Also,

27:56

I am reading the audio book personally.

27:58

So I'm personally narrating it. So if

28:01

you like this podcast, get my longest podcast

28:03

ever. And the audiobook is also available for

28:05

pre-sale everywhere you get audiobooks. And thank you

28:07

so much for listening to this podcast. You

28:09

are the reason I got to write a

28:11

memoir. So thank you so, so much. Okay,

28:16

welcome back. Let's continue the conversation.

28:21

So she becomes a standup. She goes

28:23

on tour by herself. If you are

28:25

into comedy, if you are into show

28:27

business at all, this book is a

28:29

must, must, must read. And she describes

28:32

a part of the business that is

28:34

never described, including, you know,

28:37

being on tour by yourself for so long. And then

28:40

the part where she tries to get an agent, she wrote, nothing

28:43

came easy. Trying to get an agent had been

28:45

a nightmare. I met with one guy who told

28:47

me that he couldn't represent me because Asian people

28:49

couldn't make it in this business. He assured me

28:52

that he had tried. He had

28:54

a Chinese client once and the failure was

28:56

so painful. He vowed never to make that

28:58

mistake again. Later, he

29:01

represented one of the actresses on my TV show

29:03

and he would come onto the set on tape

29:05

days and I would be standing right next to

29:07

him and he couldn't even look at me. I

29:10

of course stared at him so much. I

29:12

am surprised he didn't burst into flames. The

29:15

amount of times that she had people

29:17

who wronged her then circle back into

29:19

her life was

29:22

also interesting to me. I could dine on

29:24

it. I could dine on that feeling. The

29:26

emails I received were like, Hey girl, I'm

29:28

like you piece of shit. Yum,

29:31

yum, yum. It's delicious.

29:34

And why, why do people have such selective

29:36

memories? I do not know. Like those girls

29:38

that bullied her and who showed up at

29:40

her show and they were like, Hey, she

29:42

was like, hmm. Did they think that once

29:44

you reach a certain amount of perceived success

29:46

that you're all healed and you're fine. Do

29:48

they really have no memory of what they

29:50

did? Or is it that

29:52

their values were always cool people and not cool

29:54

people. And I want to be around cool people and

29:56

you're not. So I've fucked you over. Oh, she's cool

29:58

now. Now I'd want to to be around

30:00

her. Like it's all so self-centered and so

30:03

unaware of like, oh, didn't know Margaret's awesome

30:05

now. Let's go. No, my God. I think

30:07

you're right. I think it really is. And

30:09

that's why it continues to happen because it's

30:11

that black and white. Yeah.

30:14

It's so, it's so disgusting. Well,

30:18

and then there's so much of this book I

30:20

love. So an agent named Karen, a good Karen,

30:23

a good Karen, a good

30:25

Karen shows up to one of her shows and

30:27

is like, you are, you're

30:29

it. You're so talented. Yeah. And

30:31

she writes, I was suspicious of her.

30:34

I could not believe

30:36

that anyone would be so interested in me

30:38

just for my talent. And

30:41

then later she says, she

30:43

was right. And the showcases we did started a

30:45

bidding war between all major studios. I got a

30:47

deal, a great one. I am sure I would

30:50

still be trying to audition for things or suffering

30:52

if it weren't for her. And

30:54

then she goes,

30:57

it's a complicated story, but another

31:01

person who was working with her, her manager,

31:03

that's right. Can convinces her

31:05

to meet with a different guy behind Karen's

31:07

back. That's right. That manager was threatened by

31:09

Karen. Yes. And

31:12

so she's like, take a meeting with

31:14

this guy agent who's not Karen behind

31:16

Karen's back. She said, somehow

31:18

Annie, the person who had set up behind

31:20

her back, let it slip about

31:22

the meeting. And we were caught agent handed,

31:24

but Karen had a plan of her own.

31:26

I was in New York at the

31:29

time doing a show for comedy central. Karen sent

31:31

in Greer, a new manager

31:33

from a hot firm that she knew would impress me.

31:35

So a totally different manager. Greer

31:38

convinced me to leave Annie and sign

31:40

with him. Karen would still be

31:42

my agent and together he promised we would have the

31:44

world. And she said,

31:47

this was a brilliant move on Karen's part. She

31:49

must have known that her words would make a deeper

31:52

impression on me when spoken by a man. It

31:55

is horrifying to acknowledge the sexism within yourself

31:57

because then you see the enemy is not

31:59

in of you but behind your own

32:01

eyes. The reason I didn't feel worthy of the

32:03

love and support Karen gave was because she was

32:05

a woman and I couldn't trust her. I had

32:07

grown up with the idea that while women may

32:09

make strides without men, they could only do the

32:12

real work with them. Even though

32:14

Karen really did everything, she had to make

32:16

me think it was Greer's work in order

32:18

to make such a big impact. I mean,

32:20

and doesn't that seem pretty directly related to

32:22

her father leaving? Yes.

32:26

Oh, just a straight line.

32:28

It's a pretty straight line. And only

32:30

reinforced by the profession that she's in

32:32

too. Yeah. Yeah, no, this Karen person

32:34

is really smart. She's

32:37

incredible. She's a hero. She really is. Yeah, that's right. She

32:39

comes back. And she's going to come back. Okay,

32:41

so she gets her network deal for

32:43

her own TV show. Again, she's 25

32:46

years old. It's going to

32:48

be the first Asian show on television starring

32:50

multiple leads. It's supposedly about her and her

32:52

life. This is, it's 1994. Everyone is racist.

32:54

This is incredible this

32:58

is happening. Then it happened at all

33:00

still staggers me. It really, it really

33:02

does. I just, I mean,

33:05

at this time, I remember feeling just like

33:07

there were two prototypes for Asian women. There

33:10

was Connie Chung, and there was

33:12

the Me Love You Long Time and Full Metal

33:14

Jacket. Like those were the two main things. So

33:16

much so that when I first signed with my

33:18

agent in LA, I said, avoid those

33:21

two things. I don't want to be either of those.

33:23

Good for you. Yeah. Also, when you were starting out,

33:25

you needed to do that. And

33:27

I think there's no way you could have like,

33:29

it's like people like Margaret have to go through

33:31

hell and then people like us can be like,

33:33

wait, don't do that. Oh no, she army crawled

33:36

through the pits of fiery hell so that I

33:38

could go to my agent and say, I don't

33:40

want to play Connie Chung or Me Love You

33:42

Long Time. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Wow. I mean, what

33:48

happens here? I mean,

33:50

I could talk for hours about this. She gets

33:53

this deal and they're like, yeah, but obviously you're not

33:55

going to write it. This like older white dude named

33:57

Carrie. Well, I cannot believe I mean, you know. you've

34:00

been stabbed so many times and

34:02

so successfully, the fact that none

34:04

of these people writing this story

34:06

had any understanding of her

34:08

experience at all, at all,

34:12

and that they wouldn't empower her

34:15

as the person who got this deal,

34:17

who wrote all her own jokes that

34:20

perhaps she should write it. And so

34:22

she said, he cranked out a pilot

34:24

from five minutes of my stand-up, a

34:27

sunny expose on what it was like to

34:29

grow up a rebellious daughter in a conservative

34:31

Korean household. I spared him

34:33

the real story. The truth was that

34:35

I lived in my parents' basement when

34:37

I was 20, because

34:40

my father couldn't stand the side of me and therefore

34:42

banned me from the rest of the house,

34:44

so that I peeped at the family through

34:46

the cracks in the door under the stairs

34:48

like Bad Ronald. I was

34:51

unemployed and trying to kick a

34:53

sick crystal meth habit by smoking

34:55

huge bags of para-quat-laced marijuana and

34:57

watching Nick at night for six

34:59

hours at a time. Now that's

35:01

a sitcom. I would watch that. I'd watch

35:03

that now. Right? Please. I spared

35:06

him the real story. And my God, I

35:08

would kill to have been in those rooms

35:10

before they even brought her in and just want

35:12

to know, from what point of view did they

35:15

think they were coming from? Yes, absolutely. And I

35:17

think this is my favorite paragraph in the book.

35:19

I know you must have had this moment. I've

35:21

had this moment and the moment you have it,

35:23

I've never recovered. She writes, they put her show

35:25

together. He writes it. I just went along with

35:28

it. I thought they all knew what

35:30

they were doing. All caps. I

35:32

thought they all knew what

35:34

they were doing. And

35:36

the craziest thing is that nobody

35:38

knows. Nobody knows. And they don't

35:40

know. They don't know. They're all

35:43

winging it and taking

35:45

guesses at someone's artistry.

35:48

And as an artist, you go, I have to trust these

35:50

people. They get it done. And you

35:53

have to push through that as a 25 year

35:55

old first Asian American woman ever to make it

35:58

on screen. I mean, it's no wonder it was

36:00

impossible. And yeah, that kind of person, it's not

36:02

imposter syndrome because it's not like they even have

36:04

real skills. And none of

36:06

those people would ever have been capable of telling

36:08

her story. And I don't know why they thought

36:10

that they were. Well, I know why they thought

36:12

that they were. Of course. Money.

36:15

Yeah. Money and ego and yeah,

36:17

yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then the network calls her

36:19

and they say, I have to tell

36:21

you the network has a problem with you. They

36:23

are concerned about the fullness of your face. You need to

36:25

lose weight. I don't care what you have to

36:28

do. We have two weeks before

36:30

we shoot the pilot. I am so

36:32

sorry. And

36:34

this is for your future. If you want your

36:36

own show, you need to do it. And

36:39

please, please, please, please do not wear

36:41

anything that bears your midriff. She

36:43

writes one, please, what is the five? How

36:46

do you keep going when someone tells you there's something

36:48

wrong with your face? And

36:51

a few pages later, my agent Karen called

36:53

almost immediately after I hung up. She

36:55

was outraged and was urging me to pull out of the

36:57

show. Don't you see they don't get you. You

36:59

are making a big mistake. They can't ask you to

37:01

lose weight. They can't do that. Don't let them do

37:03

that. And so

37:06

I did the only thing I knew how to do. I fired her. I

37:09

didn't want to go back to auditions. I didn't want to

37:11

go back out on the road. She didn't understand. Nobody did.

37:13

If I could just lose some weight, then everything would be

37:15

fine. I thought Karen was in my way,

37:17

but that wasn't true. I was.

37:20

Karen was the only clear eyed person

37:22

in this entire memory. The only hero.

37:24

The only hero. But because she doesn't

37:27

have the power or isn't fancy enough.

37:29

And yeah. Right. And then what's

37:31

so enraging is how later when they're at like whatever

37:33

the up front or whatever and

37:35

someone asks her about losing weight and Gayle immediately

37:37

is like never happened. That never happened. We never

37:39

happened to do that. And it's like, yes, you

37:42

did. And this paragraph through

37:44

diet and exercise and sheer terror. I

37:46

lost 30 pounds in two

37:48

weeks. I mean. And her kidneys

37:50

collapse and she starts peeing blood and she's like, I have

37:52

to go to set and shoot my sitcom. And that's how

37:55

she shoots it. And she says, I wanted

37:57

to be thin more than I wanted to be alive.

38:00

Oh my God. And then

38:02

she checks herself into the hospital with no

38:04

one knowing. So she never asks

38:06

for help. Yes. She's afraid it's

38:08

gonna be taken away. As they have told her, they

38:11

would. Yeah. Yeah. And

38:13

I think, she does mention this at one point, like

38:15

the concepts at that point in time of what Asian

38:17

women were supposed to look like, which were like tiny,

38:19

frail little birds. Yeah.

38:22

You know, these little- Completely

38:24

sexualized and- Oh, completely sexualized.

38:27

Yeah. And just basically like children.

38:29

I mean, honest, that's really what it is. And

38:31

then going back to that, what you're saying, her

38:34

talent got her this show when

38:36

she did not look like that. Right.

38:39

But in their eyes, she was, you know,

38:41

not thin and still got her own show.

38:43

And it's like, of course it's gonna have

38:45

this horrific ending because what happens

38:48

and what takes up a lot of the book and

38:50

like, I just feel for her so much because,

38:52

you know, when you look

38:54

back at that show, I think most of us are not

38:56

gonna remember this, but it's the only thing she can remember,

38:59

which is that she gets so

39:01

criticized mostly by her own community.

39:04

Yeah. Of creating a

39:06

show that propagated stereotypes and

39:10

made Asian people look bad in their

39:13

words. And then

39:15

she said, people of color making

39:17

strides in a field run by

39:19

the dominant culture tend to persecute

39:21

others of their own background because

39:23

anyone else's success makes their own

39:25

achievement seemed unspectacular. It is

39:27

a way to perpetuate the idea that race is

39:29

unimportant, that it means so

39:31

little that one attacks its own time

39:33

to prove it. This is incredibly racist

39:36

in itself. It is also the way

39:38

we keep ourselves from really becoming strong

39:40

and banding together. Worst of all,

39:42

it is insidious. Even accusing this woman of

39:44

it, she's talking about this woman who wrote

39:46

this article about her. Right. And questioning my

39:48

own motives. Am I guilty of it myself?

39:50

If so, how can we stop it? Where

39:53

do we stop internalized racism as far as

39:55

we are aware of it? It's

39:57

even then her generosity, like.

40:00

My response to that is like, no, that one rule

40:02

is awful. Right, right,

40:04

because she put together multiple

40:06

articles, multiple interviews about how

40:08

horrible Margaret Cho and her

40:10

show is. And

40:12

the woman doesn't even work in entertainment. She's

40:15

not an entertainment reporter. She came over from Metro or something,

40:17

was like, I think I should shit all over her. Yeah,

40:20

she was a wretched human being. Yeah,

40:23

absolutely. And then she was like, you have

40:26

to send me a written apology. And Margaret

40:28

sent her flowers. To

40:30

me, that's like thinking

40:32

you're a kidnapper or something. I don't know.

40:35

It's so fascinating though, because I cannot

40:38

relate to it in the ways that Margaret does. But

40:40

what it makes me think of when I read that

40:42

is like, for a long

40:44

time, finally, not anymore. For a

40:47

long time, whenever a very stereotypically

40:49

hot girl got on stage as

40:52

a stand-up comedian, I

40:54

would think to myself, please

40:57

be amazing. If you are not amazing,

40:59

I'm going to be fucking pissed. Because

41:02

you're ruining it for other women if you are

41:04

not good. Which is like, that's

41:06

how she starts. She didn't even open her mouth. And I would

41:08

feel this way of like, you better fucking come through for us.

41:12

And whenever some dude got on stage and was like,

41:14

I smoke pot and jerk off all day and had

41:16

a beard or whatever, I'd be like, I don't care.

41:18

I didn't care. Right, no, of course. But if she

41:20

messed up, I was pissed. Because

41:22

I wanted women to be able to look like

41:24

anything and

41:28

be whatever and use beauty to be funny

41:30

if they wanted to and all this stuff.

41:32

But even still now, it's like, I cared

41:34

more about the Barbie movie and my criticisms

41:36

of it than any other movie this year.

41:38

But because I love it, because it's for

41:40

us. So it's like, the criticism comes from

41:42

a place of like, something for me to

41:44

talk about, finally. I don't get out of

41:46

anything I fucking care about enough to talk

41:49

about. Finally, I have something. But then, did

41:51

I make a mistake by voicing any criticism of

41:53

it and I should have just been full in

41:56

support? Do you know what I'm saying? I think

41:58

this is what Margaret's dealing with. No,

42:00

I do. And I within the

42:02

Asian American actor community, there's absolutely some

42:04

of that. And I think it is

42:07

a problem actually, because, oh,

42:09

God, and you're right, it's complicated, because it's on

42:11

both sides. On the one

42:13

hand, someone like Margaret and someone like

42:16

any woman has been given so fewer

42:18

opportunities to flourish has been systematically

42:21

kept down. But when

42:23

they do get a chance, you, of course, because it's

42:25

relatively rare. So of course, you're like, Come on, come

42:27

on, come on, but they're allowed to suck. They're

42:30

allowed, right? Like, everyone has set

42:32

them up to suck. Every person

42:35

around them is trying their

42:37

hardest, even if they think they aren't for them

42:39

to fail. So if they even make it through

42:41

at all, it's a miracle. It's so

42:43

true. And it's not their fault. Usually, the

42:45

bad parts cannot be their fault. No, oh,

42:48

God, no, we don't know. No, I mean,

42:50

you can only varnish a piece of shit.

42:52

I mean, yeah, I remember earlier in my

42:54

career, I think people were

42:56

getting both within the Asian community

42:58

and also without were getting very upset

43:00

about a role on a sitcom that

43:02

was very stereotypical. And I

43:05

remember thinking, yes, and

43:07

he's paying his rent. You

43:09

know, I don't know. It's like, there were

43:11

there's definitely been time in my career. And I

43:14

think I've been very fortunate. And

43:16

yes, I've also deliberately made choices, maybe not

43:18

to play a certain type of role, because

43:20

it didn't sit right with me. But that

43:22

doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't take it

43:24

and feel fine about it and pay their

43:26

rent. I don't know. I

43:43

mean, I don't know.

43:45

I mean, I think

43:47

that's a good thing. And

43:49

I think it's really important

43:51

that you have the opportunity

43:54

to be able to write material about it. And I

43:56

just feel like people have lost the plot. You just

43:58

hear an accent and think it's a thing. and

44:01

come out and attack Margaret and it's like, people

44:03

just don't know what the fuck they're talking about and

44:05

it makes me so upset. Oh my God. Does

44:08

any of that make sense? Yes, Kelsey, no. Every

44:10

single word makes perfect sense and it's totally true

44:12

and it also infuriates me. And who

44:14

is that criticism usually coming from? You're

44:16

very, oftentimes, like white liberal opinion. It's

44:20

not needed. It's not necessary. They're not

44:22

inquisitive and it's just the same old

44:24

thing. It just has a different mask

44:26

on. It's the same old thing. It's

44:29

still the self-congratulatory. It's still

44:31

racist. It just has a

44:34

new name. Yeah. Oh my God. It's

44:37

infuriating. Well, let's get

44:39

to the part where they cancel her show, season one, 19

44:41

episodes. Her

44:44

manager Greer takes her out to

44:46

lunch at Red on Beverly in

44:48

between Paradise Ice Tea and Chinese Chicken

44:50

Salad. He said, oh, by the way, you know, the show has been

44:52

canceled. She's like,

44:54

yeah, and he just never returns

44:56

her calls again. That

44:58

could describe just so many reps. And

45:00

then, yeah, at the time, this

45:02

was the... You and I both slipped out about this. She

45:05

was like, and at the time, you know, I'd been

45:07

dating Quentin Tarantino. That's right. And he was like, they

45:09

stole your voice. They stole your voice. This isn't you.

45:12

This isn't your comedy. And then she just moves on. And

45:14

I was like, wait, what? One

45:16

mention. One casual mention. One

45:20

sentence. Quentin Tarantino, who was dating at

45:22

the time. And I remember we

45:24

asked her about it, and she did talk about

45:26

that relationship a little. But I think she was

45:28

also like, are you trying to get Quentin Tarantino

45:30

tea? And it's like, I am not. I just,

45:33

I need to know the context of how he

45:35

was around during you filming this season and where

45:37

the two intertwined. Because this man gets to go on

45:40

and make whatever the fuck he wants to make. He

45:43

put stuff on screen we've never fucking

45:45

seen before, and you weren't allowed to

45:47

write about your mom. Right. So

45:49

I just want to know how that relationship worked.

45:51

Yes, exactly. I would love to. Like, how did

45:53

they meet? What was their dating life? Why?

45:57

I mean, what on earth? It's my

45:59

God. What a bomb to drop a bomb

46:01

and and I do I don't know when the

46:04

relationship goes away, but You

46:07

know, she just casual I can't even Love

46:10

that he said that and the

46:12

fact that they retooled right? They tried

46:15

to retool the show They took away

46:17

the entire family except for the grandma

46:19

because old Asian ladies are funny They

46:22

were the entire family and they put her

46:24

with a bunch of slacker guys So

46:26

I love that she says technically it was more

46:28

like my life but they just

46:30

completely they made a mess of everything they

46:32

had such a great opportunity and And

46:35

the fact that it hasn't really been done again is

46:37

amazing to me You're so

46:39

right. Like I was trying to think

46:42

of like maybe Nora from Queens, which

46:44

was like aqua-cenos show. Yes She's amazing.

46:47

That's true. Which also I believe has a

46:49

grandma in it. It does it. She's Wonderful.

46:51

Oh my god. That actor is wonderful. Yeah,

46:54

I it's So fascinating because

46:56

Margaret in 1994 as a 25 year old did Exactly

47:01

what I would do and much more which is that

47:03

she listened to everyone and then

47:05

they fucked up everything on her

47:07

good Name and sent her on her way Yeah,

47:10

and then they just discarded her. Yeah, I

47:13

would not have had the courage to be like I'm walking away

47:15

from this show I would have been like, oh, okay. I guess

47:17

we have to do this. No God, of course she

47:20

enters this just Extreme

47:23

depression just as I

47:25

would and she's just

47:27

getting drunk and doing drugs and

47:30

dancing with weird men and weird

47:32

Hollywood clubs and She's

47:35

just doesn't know what to do with her life and then

47:37

page 166. It's the theme of the podcast

47:40

They love the podcast. She said I

47:43

think if we all told our stories and said out

47:45

loud But it's happened to us to warn other women

47:47

to comfort those who have had the same things

47:49

happen to them To show that we are not

47:51

alone. The world would suddenly become a bigger and

47:53

better place People ask me sometimes

47:55

if I ever go too far if

47:58

I ever reveal too much of myself way to regret it. I

48:01

don't think it is possible to get too personal.

48:03

We all have pain. We all have doubt and

48:05

sadness and horrible things that have happened that shouldn't

48:07

have. And when we cover them up and try

48:09

to pretend that everything is okay, then our stories

48:11

are forgotten and our truths become lies. I tell

48:14

the truth because I am not afraid to.

48:16

I tell the ugliness to show you the

48:18

beauty, but there's so much ugliness still left.

48:20

Yeah, I highlighted that passage. It's incredible. Yeah,

48:24

it's so beautiful and true

48:26

and makes me appreciate her work on such

48:29

a deeper level and this book even more.

48:31

And immediately after that,

48:33

so I think it's the best intro, she

48:35

said she decided on suicide.

48:39

And that it was a relief. Yes. And

48:42

I was recently at a librarian conference doing

48:44

a little talk about my book with other

48:46

authors and this author got up there and

48:48

she has a book coming out that I

48:50

will link in the show notes because I

48:52

can't remember it off the top of my head, but she was

48:54

talking about seeing the signs

48:56

of children who are feeling suicidal. And

49:00

one of the signs can be that they get a lot

49:02

happier immediately. And

49:05

it's because they have

49:07

finally found a solution in suicide.

49:10

And so you feel happy for the first

49:12

time. Right. And I just

49:14

kind of want to pass that on as I'm not

49:16

saying that obviously I'm sure she has much more nuance,

49:18

but that that could be one of the signs of

49:20

like your teenager who's going through a lot suddenly feels

49:23

a lot happier because that's what Margaret is describing. Jesus.

49:26

Yeah, my God. I mean, I get

49:29

that on a sort of cellular

49:32

level. I think I understand that because

49:34

what a relief to feel like you

49:36

have, like you said, a solution and

49:38

a choice. Yeah.

49:41

When so much of your life up

49:43

to that point has been, you know, what's

49:46

that thing she says about how she was

49:48

never defined by herself? Yeah. Like she

49:50

never felt like she was ever making those

49:52

choices. She was always defined by forces outside

49:55

of herself here. Oh, oh, also, sorry, this

49:57

is actually what it is. The problem

49:59

was that I sought approval from

50:01

others because I sought definition from

50:04

others. Wow. I

50:06

had virtually no opinion of myself that was not

50:08

given to me by someone else. Oh my God.

50:11

That hurts too much

50:14

for... It's 1pm in LA and

50:17

I'm not ready for that. I need that to

50:19

be delivered to me at happy hour. No, no,

50:21

no. It's early afternoon. It's true.

50:24

It's true. It's true. But

50:26

that's crazy. And coming

50:28

out of the mouth of someone who when I

50:30

think about her now, I think

50:33

she is so self-defined. Yeah. Oh

50:35

my God. But that's I

50:37

guess where she came to. Yes. But

50:40

I mean, I think that's why

50:42

I love this book too because it's

50:44

the hugely ugly parts before you get

50:47

that little piece of yourself back. Because

50:51

she has these like fucked up boyfriends. She

50:53

adopts a dog who is dying. She's like

50:56

me and this dog are going to die

50:58

together. There's so many fucked up guys and

51:00

there's this guy Marcelle and she's just drinking

51:03

so much. Oh, my body hurt

51:05

like just reading about her out. Yeah.

51:08

Like that hurt me. She said, I was

51:10

sick of myself. I was sick

51:12

of living this way. I was sick

51:14

of dying. I realized I did

51:16

not want to die. I wanted to quit

51:18

drinking. First of all, I

51:20

wanted to get away from Marcelle. And so

51:24

in having this purpose of getting

51:26

away from Marcelle, she

51:30

starts to crawl her way out

51:33

of this depression and breaking up

51:35

with him. And she says this

51:37

is like now my favorite part of the book. No,

51:40

I've said this 10 times. I can't keep saying

51:42

that. But I like this part of the book.

51:44

She says, just after I left Marcelle, my

51:46

old agent Karen called me.

51:50

That's right. The power of a good

51:52

female best friend, even though she

51:54

is her agent. I was so glad to hear from her.

51:56

We hadn't spoken for years. She

51:59

had read my script. and loved it. I told her

52:01

everything that happened with Roman, another fucked up guy. She

52:03

couldn't believe it, but then of course she could. So

52:05

she had written a script and all this and sent

52:07

it to Karen. And then she said that whenever

52:10

I decided that I wanted to take over the world,

52:12

she would be there. I believe that

52:14

when you take those first steps in loving yourself, the

52:16

universe conspires with your soul to keep that love affair

52:18

going. I had taken baby steps and

52:20

sobering up and leaving Marcel and now I was ready

52:23

for the quantum leap. I mean,

52:25

isn't that the way it works? She

52:27

left this toxic thing and this door opened.

52:29

I mean, yes, she has to leave the

52:31

guy. She has to, she's like technically still

52:33

signed with Greer. She has to leave him.

52:35

She has to like make

52:37

space for it. I was just having dinner with a friend

52:39

who was like, I'm cutting all these things out of my

52:42

life because I want to make space for something big. I

52:44

don't know what it is. Yeah. I'm like make space. Oh

52:46

God, I think that is, that's

52:48

great. I mean, Marie Kondo it baby.

52:50

That's right. That's right. And

52:53

she writes, Karen still had utter confidence and

52:56

faith in my talent. She booked

52:58

me at countless clubs and colleges and

53:00

I fell in love with my work in a way I never had before.

53:02

I realized that when I was on stage with

53:04

the mic, I was at home and that when

53:06

I'm at peak confidence, when the crowd is right, the

53:08

night is relatively young and God is there. Nobody does

53:11

it better. I wrote constantly and

53:13

toured with a vengeance. Karen came

53:15

with me to all my gigs, taking notes, helping

53:17

me rebuild myself. And what

53:20

she rebuilds is what

53:22

becomes this book and her first stand, not her first

53:24

stand special, but a huge stand special called I'm the

53:26

one that I want that entirely brings

53:28

her career back to life. I mean,

53:30

again, I just, it just takes one

53:32

person, doesn't it? And, and the fact

53:35

that Karen was still ready

53:37

and so eager

53:39

to support her, I

53:42

find that to be, thank God, thank God

53:44

for Karen. It's so heroic. And it's so

53:46

like the Margaret show we know today. She

53:49

has to go back to zero and restarts.

53:53

And this is also my favorite part of the book. I'm sorry,

53:55

everyone. Okay. She

53:57

was like, Oh, no, but I still need to like lose.

54:00

They forget my career back but

54:02

also I I have all this

54:04

disordered eating around it. And.

54:06

She said subconsciously I was terrified of being

54:08

then sold. Sabotage every plan by overeating and

54:10

punish myself with exercise. and they get to

54:12

hungry to control myself, Run, food and on

54:15

and on. An on. So. When

54:17

day I just dropped it. subject game over.

54:20

I look better today than I ever

54:22

has. Don't kid yourself into thinking weight

54:24

issues are not important. It. Isn't

54:26

a frivolous thing? That. Is still

54:28

a feminist issue? We is not just

54:30

about our bodies, it's how we feel

54:32

about ourselves. It affects every decision we

54:34

make. The Status quo would likely to

54:36

think of it as a petty an

54:38

important thing to make fun of it

54:40

like it is ridiculous. Female obsession a

54:42

weakness. It is one of their greatest

54:45

weapons. Don't become a casualty. The. War

54:47

is almost over and we are going. To win.

54:49

When we let go of that. Our arms

54:51

se to do everything The toughest.

54:54

For saw it as an assassin. Incredibly brave

54:56

thing to say. A painful reading. The war

54:58

is almost over when this is run in

55:01

two thousand and one and twenty twenty four.

55:03

I stand here and say it has only

55:05

gotten. Worse assists. Yeah,

55:07

yeah yeah no it's It's true

55:09

about it. Doesn't affect everything you

55:11

do. it does. It's as it

55:14

has ended in our inner they

55:16

are. You consume everything. Not.

55:18

Just food like a affects how you

55:20

consume media at have sex or you

55:22

consume products and insects. It affects one

55:25

is. Marketed to you. And fix.

55:27

Everything is so and so trail she

55:29

said, you know, I remember being interviewed

55:31

on a morning new cell and discussing

55:33

weight issues, the interim and exclaims that's

55:36

ridiculous You're not that overbay I snapped.

55:38

Fact: I'm not overweight at all. Your

55:40

attitude is a problem. She ignored my

55:42

comment when. On the the interview. When.

55:44

I was on tape. They cut that part

55:46

out. People are stupid and will say what they

55:49

will say. It's not just way either. it's

55:51

everything. The challenges: Learning how to not give

55:53

them the power to dictate how I feel about

55:55

myself, learning how to love myself from within

55:57

to make my opinion kept the most. Knowing

55:59

that no one and nothing is going to save

56:01

me accept myself. These are the lessons I have

56:04

been forced to learns. This is what my

56:06

life now is all about. This is why

56:08

I have written this book. I mean.

56:11

I guess he has to be that

56:13

isolated and that low. I

56:15

mean I feel like I know people are of

56:17

had relationships with people who were like sat in

56:20

the sense that. They.

56:22

Have to figure out all the different

56:24

ways of destroying themselves. Before.

56:27

They can find a way to

56:29

start. In a different direction. Yeah.

56:32

It's as you seen see these high as

56:34

you can always tap into those ways you

56:36

just want to destroy yourself To like the

56:39

never. Really go away.

56:41

You know, like oh my going.

56:43

So let's. Be. Hateful to

56:45

myself? Or am I going to start a

56:47

new weird way plan? Or am I going

56:49

to listen to what people say about me

56:51

more than I listen to myself? Maybe even

56:53

getting to know those those places though is

56:55

really important, right? Because then they can't trick

56:58

you anymore. says. I'm not that way

57:00

I thus far anyway in my own life

57:02

there's certain areas that I feel like I

57:04

have done. Deception. To

57:06

myself in that light or not, someone

57:08

who feels like they need. To explore

57:11

all wouldn't. Have

57:13

do any. Favorite: The six

57:15

of those I like genre I've

57:17

gone or destruction but I don't

57:19

I don't need to go, are

57:22

just broad strokes, but I think

57:24

sometimes some folks do and. Yeah.

57:27

It's hope and pray that they come through

57:29

it and you find their way through it.

57:31

But I mean she did And I mean

57:34

an amazing way. This happy ending. Is.

57:36

Like is just my fever and this

57:38

is two thousand and one that was.

57:40

She's had a career for like he

57:43

had to more decades and decades and

57:45

decades for his of justice. I

57:47

feel like she's beloved. That's how that's

57:49

how I feel. On I think. Everyone

57:52

I think them the culture but agree

57:54

the like market shows beloved yeah I

57:56

think so too. Yeah. I think

57:58

so too. Joey there's so

58:01

much more. wanted to talk to you

58:03

about me and every passes what I

58:05

called the bottle tests. Are you ready?

58:07

Oh yes yes America. First question was

58:09

the other vulnerable and the sharing of

58:12

her truth I think see how you

58:14

could be much more? Yeah yeah she

58:16

sets the standard. Second question was entertaining

58:18

series very very big. It not only

58:21

her voice whitley her writing style like

58:23

just with acquaintances, switches, drop things and

58:25

same. I ripped through this book. I

58:27

read it so fast. Final:

58:29

Question. And did reading this book elevate your

58:31

life in any way and all, I know

58:34

the answers. Yeah, so unless specifically do you

58:36

think this book may be elevated your life

58:38

the most? Sorry to answer for you, but

58:40

I feel confident as we already did a

58:42

show about this. No, No, You're absolutely right.

58:44

Absolutely elevated I'm He has insisted circle back

58:46

to what we talked about before. just in

58:48

terms of what? What's the people who break

58:50

the ground or must endure it so that

58:52

those of us who come later can blithely

58:55

step into a room and and a third,

58:57

a certain amount of autonomy within it. And

58:59

like. And empowerment and an entitlement to be

59:01

there. You. Know see

59:03

nearly died. So

59:06

that I can go into an audition. Be like, you're gonna

59:08

look at me and you're gonna like it. Ah

59:12

like yeah. Seriously, Those two

59:14

things are. Profoundly.

59:17

Connected and I think reading the book

59:19

again even just reminded me of that.

59:21

And a we should all be down

59:23

our knees thinking Margaret Cho I. Completely.

59:26

Agree. And And reading the sack now I'm just

59:28

like. A Macys wildly things

59:30

on a coalition of them. A seems woman in

59:32

the world like these gems. Oh. My.

59:35

God. And. I

59:37

think this look is elevated. My. Life Every time

59:39

I've read through it or talks. At it.

59:41

the way it's elevated my

59:43

license this time is thinking

59:45

about how. See.

59:47

Made it quote unquote. Made it She's she

59:50

thought the thing. And

59:52

it was destroyed. And she

59:54

was destroyed. And. That

59:57

the answer was returning to her artistry

59:59

in the. Answer was returning

1:00:01

to. The. People who

1:00:03

believe in trust you the

1:00:05

most regardless of. Their. Title

1:00:08

or place Athena Karen. And

1:00:11

that going from there. Is.

1:00:13

What rebuilt hurry and saved her life

1:00:15

and and then later her career just

1:00:17

to even just save her heart And

1:00:19

I think likes the idea of returns

1:00:21

your artistry am. Not. Be fucking us

1:00:24

what they're doing and like don't forget it

1:00:26

that that all caps and it is huge and

1:00:28

I have said that things like that to

1:00:30

myself a lot. Is. Reminding myself

1:00:32

that no one knows. Nothing.

1:00:34

To do this and they're dying

1:00:36

for someone to come in and

1:00:38

tell them Yes, Yes! Us! Is

1:00:41

so. True. Still A I just

1:00:43

adore you and you know join in put

1:00:45

her credits in her bio. you guys with

1:00:47

the movie placate. You're going of like all

1:00:49

my guy that is so I go through

1:00:52

a K U. I disagree so much. Tell

1:00:54

people where they can find you follow you

1:00:56

what he wants him to be thinking about.

1:00:58

Where'd you want people to go? We want

1:01:00

them to support. Oh my goodness Oh I'm

1:01:03

only on Instagram at Joy As maskey I've

1:01:05

left to the other platforms say they are.

1:01:07

I didn't see a point. And then in

1:01:09

terms of what I would like people to.

1:01:11

Support the play I just stared

1:01:13

at the public has called the

1:01:15

Allies and it's written by the

1:01:18

incredible Itamar Moses and directed by

1:01:20

the incredible Lyla Noise of Our

1:01:22

and it covered the Palestine and

1:01:24

Israel conflicts and a very real

1:01:26

way and I would love for

1:01:28

people to investigate that play and

1:01:30

to investigate the resources around that

1:01:32

place. And to be

1:01:34

very curious about issues.

1:01:36

That play addresses as I think we need to

1:01:38

be more curious. People need to be more open.

1:01:41

To went to Reality is right

1:01:43

now. I have that so dearly.

1:01:45

We're going to listen be more

1:01:47

serious and scrolling to the show

1:01:49

notes. Or the patron post where Posey on those

1:01:51

links to a were going put em all their so

1:01:53

they are right at your fingertips and you know we

1:01:55

always on have conversations in the comments. to see

1:01:57

their julie's think you so much for

1:01:59

doing this It was a deep pleasure

1:02:01

as always. Thank you for having me

1:02:03

back. I'm so thrilled to be here. A

1:02:09

huge thank you to our podcast

1:02:11

producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer,

1:02:13

Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus

1:02:15

Homme, and our amazing associate producer,

1:02:17

Jaren Padre. I also want to

1:02:19

thank our incredible partners over at

1:02:21

Pattern Brand, Peketo, Gear, Guild, and

1:02:23

Tanteo Tequila. I also want to

1:02:25

let you know that if you

1:02:27

love audiobooks, but you want to

1:02:29

support independent bookstores, go to libro.fm,

1:02:32

where it is easy to download

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audiobooks and support local bookshops. And

1:02:36

right now you get two libro.fm

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with your first month of membership

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G-R-A-S-H, two audiobooks for the price of

1:02:47

one at libro.fm. We'll link all these incredible brands

1:02:49

in the show notes, so go check them out.

1:02:51

And if you have questions, go to the picture

1:02:53

on ShotLounds, and I will see you there.