0:01

Hey everyone, from time to time, we'd

0:04

like to bring you episodes of other

0:06

podcasts that we think listeners of global

0:08

dispatches would appreciate. Today

0:10

we are bringing you an episode of

0:12

the podcast Inside Geneva. Recently

0:15

Anurah, the UN's relief agency for

0:17

Palestinians, has been facing scrutiny of

0:20

what exactly their role is in

0:22

the current Israel-Hamas conflict. Many

0:25

people around the world hadn't heard of

0:27

Anurah before this conflict, so what is

0:29

it exactly? Why was it founded, and

0:32

does it need to continue? Journalist

0:35

Imogen Fokes takes a deep dive,

0:37

talking to Anurah Chief Philippe Lazarini,

0:41

Israeli diplomat Nina Benami, Jan

0:43

Egeland of the Norwegian Refugee

0:45

Council, and Louis Charbonneau of

0:47

Human Rights Watch. The

0:49

Inside Geneva podcast is recorded

0:51

and produced in Geneva, where

0:53

many international organizations have their head office.

0:56

It is published every other week

0:58

on Apple, Spotify, and most major

1:00

podcast platforms. Inside Geneva

1:03

is produced by SwissInfo, a

1:05

multilingual public media service based

1:07

in Switzerland. You can follow

1:09

the show wherever you get your podcasts. This

1:30

is Inside Geneva. I'm

1:38

your host, Imogen Fokes, and

1:41

this is a production from SwissInfo,

1:43

the international public media company of

1:45

Switzerland. In

1:48

today's programme, Anurah remains

1:51

the only lifeline in

1:54

a region full of despair,

1:56

a region which Now

1:58

deserves that. We live. At

2:02

promoting a proper generally.

2:05

Political Solution: I think that there has

2:07

to be alternatives to and run in

2:10

Gaza. Israel. Will not continue

2:12

working with with and doesn't mean we're not.

2:15

A long running. Complaint.

2:17

Is that Unrwa? By

2:19

it's very nature and it's

2:22

very mandate keeps the refugee

2:24

issue alive. Issues like the

2:26

right of return for Palestinian

2:28

refugees we have moved dead

2:31

children and gossip in these.

2:34

Five months. Then

2:36

and. Centuries,

2:47

And. New and will can again to

2:49

inside Geneva into these programs are going

2:51

to. The she sleep subjectively.

2:54

Can look pretty. Un agencies which for

2:56

years it seems was not in

2:58

the news. That is now with

3:00

the i have a political and

3:03

media storm that agencies on ruff

3:05

long version The United. Nations Beliefs

3:07

and Works Agency for Palestinian

3:10

Refugee. See

3:12

year was nineteen. Forty eight or

3:14

nine. Seven Hundred and Sixty. Size

3:16

and Palestinians. Were expelled from their land

3:18

and state of Israel came to the In.

3:21

The conflict I found that it's

3:24

effects remain a ruins, but above

3:26

all a new problem and exodus

3:28

of almost a million Arab refugees.

3:30

Owner was founded in Nineteen Forty

3:33

Nine to support almost a million

3:35

Palestinians who wrecked, spelled, or fled

3:37

from what is now Israel, losing

3:40

their homes and livelihoods in the

3:42

process. That balls yes seventy five

3:44

years ago said went on risk

3:47

Commissioner General City plus mean he

3:49

came to Geneva. I asked him

3:51

why the work and Ization still

3:54

existed after all this time. In

3:56

reality, it's an organization that

3:58

provides he said such

4:01

as education, primary health

4:03

care to one of

4:05

the most destitute community in the Middle

4:07

East, being the Palestinian

4:10

refugees. And UNWWA

4:12

has been created to be

4:14

a temporary organization to provide

4:16

these services, to provide

4:19

also some job opportunity to

4:21

invest in fact in human

4:23

development of this community. Until

4:26

the day there is a lasting and

4:28

fair political solution between Israel

4:31

and Palestine. Not a few,

4:33

but an interesting example 75 years

4:35

later is nothing else than

4:37

the expression of a

4:39

collective failure to have promoted

4:41

a lasting and fair political

4:44

solution. So ideally you'd quite

4:46

like to be out of a job,

4:48

but you can't be because there's no

4:50

political solution. Ideally we should be out

4:52

of a job. And now the question

4:54

is, after this seismic

4:56

changes occurring now in the

4:58

Middle East and this unprecedented

5:03

war in Gaza and

5:05

unprecedented massacre on October

5:07

7th, maybe it

5:09

is time that the international

5:11

community be generally invested

5:14

in promoting such a political

5:16

solution. And if we have such

5:18

a political solution, indeed UNWWA

5:21

would face out because we would

5:23

hand over all our

5:26

activities to a newly

5:28

set up Palestinian state

5:30

and administration. 75

5:32

years later, as we all know, there

5:34

is no Palestinian state and

5:36

the chance of one seems further away than

5:39

ever. For millions of Palestinians,

5:41

the primary UN agency ANRA is

5:43

simply a lifeline. Today UNRWA

5:45

supports almost 6 million

5:48

Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon,

5:50

Syria, the West Bank and

5:52

the Gaza Strip. An astonishing

5:55

new image that turns this

5:57

decades old conflict around. a

6:00

coordinated and unexpected attack,

6:02

a breach in Israel's

6:04

security. Unprecedented attacks by

6:07

Hamas militants. It

6:09

represents the biggest loss of life

6:11

in a single day in Israeli

6:13

history. Now, in

6:15

shocking allegations, Israel claims

6:18

some UNRWA staff were involved

6:20

in the October 7 attack

6:22

by Hamas, in which almost 1,200

6:25

Israelis were killed and at least 200

6:27

taken hostage. Nina

6:30

Ben-Ami is the Israeli diplomat in

6:32

charge of relations with the United

6:34

Nations. October 7 was a game

6:36

changer. And what happened on that

6:38

day required us

6:41

in Israel and many people in the

6:43

international community to take another look

6:46

at what was going on. Because

6:48

the involvement, direct involvement

6:51

of those 13

6:53

UNRWA employees in the

6:55

October 7 attacks on Israel, turned

6:58

them into... So you

7:00

brought the allegations to the

7:02

United Nations, to UNRWA. They

7:04

fired the people. They're

7:06

now having this official

7:09

investigation, plus an overview assessment

7:11

of UNRWA. You

7:14

must be quite pleased with the quick

7:16

reaction. I think it's something that has

7:18

to happen, because it's clearly not in

7:21

the interest of the international community or

7:23

of the UN to have

7:26

taxpayer funds from around the world

7:28

go into an organization that

7:30

is co-opted by being

7:32

so involved in terror. And

7:35

I want to just open up a little bit more,

7:37

because some of the claims are that, oh, it

7:39

was only these 13 people. What

7:41

about the rest of the organization? But

7:44

as we've continued our operations

7:46

in Gaza, the information has

7:48

continued to come out. And the numbers

7:50

are much wider. We

7:53

know about 1,500 people that

7:56

are UNRWA employees that are

7:58

Hamas operatives. And

8:00

about 50% of the people

8:03

who work for UNRWA have a

8:05

first degree relative who is a

8:07

Hamas operative. In

8:09

war-torn Gaza, UNRWA, the UN's Relief

8:12

and Works Agency, is one of

8:14

the largest providers of life-saving aid

8:16

to Palestinians, but now shocking revelations

8:19

from the agency itself. Now,

8:21

to be fair, what we know so

8:23

far is that Israel claimed to

8:26

the UN that 12 or possibly

8:28

13 UNRWA staff

8:30

were in some way or other involved

8:32

in the October 7 attack. UNRWA

8:35

immediately fired those staff members,

8:37

and now the UN has

8:40

launched an investigation. The

8:42

organization has 13,000 staff in Gaza. It

8:46

runs schools and clinics. Jan

8:48

Egland, former UN Humanitarian

8:51

Coordinator and now head

8:53

of the Norwegian Refugee Council, told

8:55

me his reaction when he

8:58

heard the news. Very serious

9:00

allegations. And I felt

9:02

really when I heard of it that potentially,

9:05

potentially, 12 colleagues

9:08

in UNRWA have

9:11

betrayed every fundamental

9:13

humanitarian ideal. We're

9:16

supposed to be humanitarians by

9:19

being neutral, independent,

9:23

impartial. And we

9:25

start to fight in the

9:27

conflict. I mean, we undermine

9:29

those sacred humanitarian values for

9:31

all. You have said,

9:33

and in fact, the humanitarian community is

9:36

pretty much speaking with one voice here,

9:38

that UNRWA is

9:40

crucial in Gaza

9:42

and cannot be replaced.

9:46

Why not? There are other aid

9:48

agencies there. Your own is among them. Well,

9:51

we, the other organizations, including the

9:53

Norwegian Refugee Council, we have 60

9:57

Colleagues inside Gaza at the moment.

10:00

There were one of the

10:02

larger a nongovernmental organizations, but

10:04

I would admit that. All

10:07

of us combined all of

10:10

a non governmental organizations, all

10:12

of the Red Cross, red

10:15

Crescent organizations, all of the

10:17

Un agencies combines. We're not

10:20

even sauce or what unripe

10:22

is for gas and society

10:25

and the reason for that

10:27

is the whole premise that

10:29

gossip that West Bank the

10:32

Palestinians have been optimised sound

10:34

occupation on the seats they

10:37

haven't had. A state says

10:39

ninth and Forty Eight see

10:42

a whole purpose of unrest

10:44

is to provide saucer services,

10:47

education, healthcare and hopefully more

10:49

and more works so that

10:51

one day. They. Can

10:54

stand on their own, fit within

10:56

the nation state, but until then

10:58

it's unripe East be social services

11:01

if you're like of. For the

11:03

Protestants, the Israeli. Prime Minister Benjamin

11:05

Netanyahu says he has told the

11:07

United States he opposes the establishment

11:09

of a Palestinian state. Is

11:12

making the point that Philly. Plus, he

11:14

also. Made onerous mandate is

11:16

different from that at the

11:18

classic aid agencies. It was

11:20

supposed to be temporary, that

11:22

because there has been no

11:24

political solution, it's still there.

11:27

The current Israeli government seems

11:29

to have ruled out any

11:31

chance of a two state

11:33

solution, and Lily Charbonneau, the

11:35

Un Directorate Human Rights Thoughts,

11:37

tells me the fact that

11:39

the Un agency supporting Palestinians

11:41

still holds out the hunt

11:43

for statehood has. Been a

11:45

source of irritation in some

11:47

Israeli political circles for years.

11:49

and israel has long accused

11:51

on role of being by

11:54

as dumb they've criticize their

11:56

approach to education because on

11:58

robot is as the main

12:00

organizer of schools and

12:02

education in Palestinian areas.

12:05

And then a long-running complaint

12:08

is that Anroa, by

12:10

its very nature and its very

12:13

mandate, keeps the refugee issue alive,

12:15

issues like the right

12:17

of return for Palestinian

12:20

refugees who left

12:22

after 1948 and the founding of the State

12:24

of Israel. So

12:30

the complaints against Anroa have been

12:32

around for a long time. They run

12:34

deep. And this

12:36

is the latest series of allegations,

12:38

but again, they're serious allegations. And

12:40

Israel says that they have evidence

12:43

to prove them. We still don't

12:45

know what the full extent of

12:47

that evidence is. But

12:49

even if it's true, we still

12:51

need Anroa to be funded because

12:54

they need to function. They're saving

12:56

lives. And without them, many

12:59

people, women, children, civilians

13:01

will likely die,

13:03

starve to death. We have accused

13:05

Israel of using starvation

13:07

as a weapon of war, which is a

13:09

war crime in the

13:12

Gaza Strip. So we need

13:14

Anroa on its feet. Gaza

13:16

is hungry. This

13:19

is a view from a U.N. convoy as

13:21

it tried to deliver food into war-torn northern

13:23

Gaza this month. Human rights

13:25

watch is critical of the way

13:27

Israel is conducting its war on

13:30

Hamas and the effect on Gaza's

13:32

civilians. Charbonneau too sees

13:34

the allegations against Anroa as

13:36

very serious, but he would

13:38

like to see the evidence. Some

13:41

in Israel have suggested the information

13:43

is too sensitive and can't be

13:45

shared. But Nina Ben-Ami says

13:47

the evidence will be given to the

13:50

two investigative teams the U.N. has set

13:52

up. We will be sharing that evidence

13:54

with both investigative bodies. They are planning

13:56

to come to Israel in the

13:59

next... week or so and we

14:02

will be sharing this information absolutely because we

14:05

call on a serious

14:07

investigation, in-depth investigation on what's happening

14:09

with UNRWAI for it to be

14:11

able to be resolved. We

14:13

cannot continue with the current situation where UNRWAI is

14:15

part of the problem and not part of the

14:17

solution. So the statements made from

14:20

other members of the Israeli government that

14:22

Israel will not share this information because

14:24

it doesn't trust the United Nations. That's

14:26

not true then. You're telling me that

14:28

all of it will be shared? You

14:31

will be sharing the information with

14:33

the investigative bodies that are

14:35

coming here for that purpose. Absolutely.

14:38

And we've invited them to come and we are

14:40

absolutely going to be cooperating with them so they

14:42

can get to the bottom of this because it

14:45

is clearly a subject which concerns

14:48

Israel because we are in the end the receiving

14:50

end of the violence and the terror that came

14:52

out from this situation. But the

14:54

UN has some soul searching to do because

14:56

I would also posit that if

14:58

this has happened with UNRWAI, it's

15:00

possible that there are similar things happening in

15:02

other UN bodies that are also working in

15:04

Gaza. But let's focus right now on UNRWAI

15:06

in Gaza and Israel will

15:08

not be able to continue working with

15:11

UNRWAI in Gaza. We are not. Never.

15:16

Never in the very long term but UNRWAI has become

15:18

part of the problem and not part of the solution.

15:21

It is really incumbent upon the UN to do

15:23

these investigations and to get to the bottom and

15:26

the source of the problem. Well, the

15:28

investigations are now underway and nothing

15:30

is proven yet. But

15:32

it seems many minds in Israel are

15:35

already made up. Meanwhile

15:37

UNRWAI itself has not yet

15:39

seen the evidence. Philip

15:41

Matherini fired his staff on

15:44

the basis of allegations. To

15:46

protect, he hoped the organization as

15:48

a whole. I did not

15:50

have any concrete evidence. These

15:52

are allegations. They are shocking

15:55

allegations. They are related to

15:57

October 7th. Basically,

16:00

I have taken the decision to

16:02

not only terminate the contractor of

16:05

the staff alleged having

16:08

participated through the

16:10

October 7 massacre, but at the

16:12

same time an investigation

16:14

through the Office of

16:16

Internal Oversight Services in

16:19

New York. So

16:21

basically, we have a

16:23

kind of reverse due process.

16:25

The reason behind it was

16:27

because of the huge reputation

16:30

risk of the Agency, but also

16:32

because of the risk to compromise

16:34

the ability of the Agency to

16:36

provide services to millions of Palestinian

16:38

refugees. Let's go to

16:40

the immediate concern, which is

16:42

massive humanitarian needs in Gaza.

16:45

Now, Israel has said

16:48

it really doesn't want to work

16:50

with UNRWA. Wouldn't it be

16:52

sensible in terms of getting a

16:54

more efficient humanitarian operation for UNRWA

16:57

to step back and

16:59

have WFP, World

17:02

Health Organization and so on,

17:04

step in? To start with, if

17:06

Israel does not want to

17:09

work with UNRWA, it's because

17:11

Israel wants to dismantle this

17:13

organization and it is not

17:15

due to the allegation of

17:17

the 12 staff. It's more

17:19

of an overarching political aim

17:22

to get rid of this

17:24

organization. We heard many times

17:26

during this war a number

17:29

of Israeli politicians saying that one

17:31

aim of this war is not only to get rid

17:34

of Hamas, we have to get rid of

17:37

UNRWA as an agency.

17:39

Now, today the needs

17:41

are absolutely staggering in

17:44

the Gaza Strip. Five percent

17:46

of the population within four months has

17:48

been either killed, injured or is a

17:51

missing. We are talking

17:53

about starvation and possibly famine.

17:55

The level of destruction is

17:57

absolutely unbelievable. about

18:00

a possible looming military offensive

18:03

in Rafa. UNHWA is

18:06

the agency which has an extraordinary footprint

18:09

in the Gaza Strip

18:11

with 13,000 employees. All

18:13

the other agencies have

18:15

a very modest footprint

18:18

for the time being in the

18:20

Gaza Strip. It does not make

18:23

sense at the peak

18:25

of an imminent response, all

18:27

of suddenly dismantling the platform

18:29

which allows all the other

18:32

agencies to operate in the

18:34

Gaza Strip. You said

18:36

that there's a long history of tensions

18:38

between UNHWA and Israel.

18:41

I mean, hand on

18:43

heart, have there been faults on

18:45

both sides? If you

18:47

look back at UNHWA's history, have

18:49

mistakes been made? There are always

18:51

mistakes being made and whenever a

18:53

mistake is identified,

18:57

it is corrected. And this is also the

18:59

reason why today we have

19:01

commissioned a group of

19:04

independent institutes from Denmark,

19:06

Sweden and Oslo to

19:08

look at all

19:10

these internal mechanisms, to look

19:12

at how the agency in

19:15

the past and today is

19:17

dealing with any breaches

19:21

of neutrality. It's an

19:23

extraordinary polarised environment,

19:25

a very emotional environment, it's

19:27

a divided environment.

19:29

Everything seems to be

19:32

black or white

19:34

and obviously reality is

19:37

far more complex than looking through

19:39

the lens of the black and

19:42

white. Children in Gaza are hungry.

19:46

Donors to UNHWA, the main UN

19:48

agency that supports Palestinian, withdrew their

19:50

funding 10 days ago. But In

19:53

reaction to the allegations against UNHWA,

19:55

some donor governments have chosen what

19:58

Lazarini might call a simpani. Written

20:01

are spending their funding.

20:04

The for the investigation city even

20:06

started. Let alone been completed?

20:08

Yarmulke on the first. That's the

20:11

wrong. Choice on Ross done

20:13

everything right since this crisis

20:15

started. Number. One day I

20:18

have that they didn't suspend

20:20

good would be with them

20:22

com of thing as a

20:24

fire. The twelve stuff that

20:26

might have done. What?

20:28

Is read the party to

20:30

the conflict matches. Secondly, they've

20:32

asked for an international investigation

20:34

and or Cites or what

20:36

happens which is ongoing and

20:38

then on top of that

20:40

they've also asked three Scandinavian

20:42

researchers years to look at

20:44

how we operate. Could that

20:46

be something without education systems

20:48

or whatever that we need

20:50

to reform? It's an open

20:52

invitation for a very fine

20:54

organizations to potentially reform and

20:56

improve further. I see.

20:59

And. You are and you have been

21:01

from the moment I started reading. And

21:04

thinking that angry at of fact

21:06

sets a big donors the United

21:08

States, United Kingdom, Germany were so

21:10

quick to suspend the as you

21:13

said they're doing everything wrong. The

21:15

day off the unfair as number

21:17

one. how come it took a

21:19

few minutes for them to spend

21:21

more funding after the hands of

21:24

they had gotten these allegations them

21:26

the seems to be some kind

21:28

of or prescription get an and

21:30

finally a very important point of

21:32

principle. So. Com these

21:35

countries are still selling

21:37

and providing. arms

21:39

to his friends after a

21:42

a million evidence of israeli

21:44

soldiers subdivisions politicians and others

21:47

committing to raised by emissions

21:49

of humanitarian law i'm in

21:52

a is has to more

21:54

than ten thousand children they've

21:57

been destroyed three hundred and

21:59

sixty billion

22:02

housing units, and

22:05

they have had no suspension

22:07

of either aid nor

22:10

arms. By that logic,

22:12

the one party

22:14

that could receive nothing from

22:17

the United States would be Israel.

22:19

Palestinians in Gaza are facing the

22:22

immediate possibility of starvation, the UN

22:24

said today. Well, as we have

22:26

said, this is a polarised, often

22:29

emotional debate. But one

22:31

thing the UN aid agencies here

22:33

in Geneva are united on, there

22:36

is no replacement for UNRWA, particularly

22:38

not now, in the middle of

22:40

a major humanitarian crisis. Israel's

22:43

Nina Ben-Ami disagrees. She

22:46

says other agencies should step up.

22:48

I think that there has to be

22:50

alternatives to UNRWA in Gaza. There

22:53

are plenty of organisations and humanitarian

22:55

bodies that do excellent work for

22:58

the UN all over the world, and

23:01

there is no reason why they shouldn't be

23:03

able to step in and fill

23:06

some of the needs that UNRWA is doing

23:08

in Gaza. Israel has

23:10

no limits on what humanitarian aid we can

23:13

put into Gaza. The limits

23:15

are right now inside the

23:18

Gaza Strip, with a

23:20

big part of the bulk of the problem

23:22

being UNRWA and their

23:24

logistical capabilities and their links

23:28

with terror. Just let

23:30

me stop you there, because I listen

23:32

to the humanitarian agencies every week, and

23:35

it's not just one of them,

23:37

it's all of them who say

23:39

that the difficulties with aid getting

23:41

in, if we really want to

23:43

go in that direction, are primarily

23:46

the very limited crossing points, the

23:48

endless checks, the

23:50

repeated denials. So

23:52

I don't think that it would

23:54

be fair for me not to question you

23:56

when you say that it's nothing

23:58

to do with The

24:00

body which controls the a going in and out

24:02

which is which is Israel. And we

24:05

are working together to try and find

24:07

solutions. In ways to get the

24:09

age and his military the into data.

24:11

So. All those agencies that you

24:14

mention were aware of. We work with us

24:16

and it is a big. Challenge

24:18

but one which will not be

24:20

solved by. Own. Rock which is

24:22

helping to do terrorists have some

24:24

isn't. That will upset. If

24:27

anything ruff can I can? I

24:29

just asked you if you want

24:31

to stand by a statement that

24:34

oh Nora, as an institution is

24:36

doing that. At thirty

24:38

thousand people Just sister. And

24:41

my was anti. Muslim. Or in Gaza.

24:43

women gossip that they're dying thousand

24:45

and thirteen thousand. And

24:47

the numbers, though I said I stand

24:49

by them of the Fourteen hundreds that

24:52

are. Militants. And Hamas. Which

24:54

is ill and presented the hub of the

24:57

thirteen. Thousand and fifty percent that have first.

24:59

To relatives. But. I always

25:01

say don't be surprised that there

25:03

are so deeply embedded and the

25:05

involvement of those. Thirteen.

25:07

People on the October Seven defenses just

25:10

I would say. You. Know if an

25:12

indication of what else is going on. Okay

25:14

so for balance I feel I

25:16

need to say Israel's claims that

25:18

ten percent of earners staff are

25:21

involved with M S or that

25:23

says have family members who are

25:25

connected to have as are for

25:28

now just test name's not proven.

25:30

Fists and lawyers will point out

25:32

that having a relative who is

25:34

a bad person is not a

25:37

reason to convict. I have

25:39

condemned unequivocally. The Or

25:41

is buying an unprecedented seven oct

25:43

x have settled by Hamas in

25:45

Israel. Almost. The Jews

25:47

must be treated humanely and release the

25:50

immediately and without conditions. It

25:52

is important also recognize the effects by

25:54

our miles did not happen in a

25:56

vacuum. The. Policy: didn't people

25:58

have been subjected? 56

26:01

years of suffocating occupation. But

26:03

on October 7th, Israel suffered

26:06

appalling violence. So when

26:08

the United Nations tries to point

26:10

out that the tensions in the

26:12

Middle East are long-standing, the feelings

26:14

of hurt and anger

26:16

are understandable. Louis Charbonneau

26:18

again. There's no question that

26:21

Israel has been extremely critical of

26:23

the United Nations. They

26:25

have repeatedly called for the

26:27

UN Secretary General, Antonio Guterres,

26:30

to resign when the

26:33

Secretary General in the Security

26:35

Council strongly condemned

26:37

what Hamas and other Palestinian

26:40

armed groups did on October

26:42

7th, the atrocities that they

26:45

committed. He also said that

26:47

these atrocities didn't take place

26:49

in a vacuum, and that

26:51

caused outrage on the

26:53

part of the Israeli government. So

26:56

the criticism against the UN has

26:58

been very strong. And yes, the

27:00

Israeli government seems to want the

27:02

UN to take sides. And

27:05

this is not something that

27:07

humanitarians can do. They

27:09

have to function as

27:12

neutral parties whose job

27:14

it is to provide

27:16

life-saving humanitarian assistance.

27:19

That's what they're there for. And

27:22

whether it's UN humanitarian

27:24

organizations or the International

27:27

Committee of the Red Cross, they should

27:29

not be forced to take a side.

27:32

We are now in the area of the

27:34

basement of the hospital. In

27:36

this video released by Israel's

27:38

military, it says Hamas used

27:40

the RNTC hospital as a

27:42

command center and to hold

27:44

hostages. But in Israel,

27:46

Nina Ben-Ami is not convinced

27:48

aid agencies are impartial and

27:50

neutral. Israel has

27:53

repeatedly claimed that in densely

27:55

populated Gaza, Hamas is operating

27:57

in or near hospitals. Menami

28:00

claims aid agencies working in

28:02

hospitals in Gaza must have

28:04

seen things and she wants

28:07

them to condemn. I would say independent

28:10

and neutral requires

28:13

very careful standards

28:16

and I almost have sort of pity

28:19

on them if they're inside Gaza and they're

28:21

working and the de facto government is run

28:23

by Hamas then it may be very

28:25

difficult for them to speak out about things that they

28:27

see are a problem. It may be difficult for them

28:30

to say there's something going on in

28:32

the basement here that we need to look at. But

28:35

at the end of the day if they're

28:37

not being fair and if they're

28:39

not able to call out and

28:42

criticize the misuse of a humanitarian

28:45

infrastructure by a terrorist body

28:48

then they're in a situation

28:50

of some kind of complicity

28:52

and I cannot just let it

28:54

stand and have them get away with

28:56

it because it's

28:59

untenable. We're seeing

29:01

over the last few months there is a sense

29:03

that somehow when it comes to Israel that

29:05

they're not doing the efforts

29:08

that we would like to see them do. There's a

29:10

great deal of public anger

29:13

and feeling of abandonment. If

29:15

the UN is doing so much for

29:17

so many others but when Israel is now

29:19

in the time of crisis, when our hostages

29:21

are being held, anyone seeing them,

29:23

having a sign of life, we're getting medicine

29:26

to them and we are left out. So

29:29

yes, for Geneva I would say the

29:31

voice of Jerusalem, there's a

29:33

definite feeling of anger and

29:36

abandonment by the international humanitarian

29:38

community over there. Aid agencies will tell

29:40

you that the only side there on

29:42

is the side of innocent civilians caught

29:45

up in conflict, that they

29:47

haven't managed to convince Israel and

29:50

its vocal lack of trust could

29:52

be very damaging for the UN's

29:54

humanitarian work in all sorts of

29:56

places. Jan Egland fears how

29:58

this conflict is over. conflict already

30:01

so terrible may develop. This

30:03

will end very, very,

30:06

very badly. It can

30:09

end even worse than now, even

30:12

though we are at the

30:14

point where we have more dead children

30:16

in Gaza in these four

30:18

or five months than in

30:21

all other armed conflict combined

30:24

worldwide in the same period. Three

30:26

times more children died in three

30:30

months in the

30:32

Gaza war than in Q, yes,

30:34

of the Ukraine war. But

30:37

Rafa is filled

30:40

to the brim by vulnerable

30:42

civilians, women and children mostly.

30:45

And now Israel is thinking of

30:47

going in with a bloody ground

30:50

offensive. You can't have a war in

30:53

a refugee camp. And

30:55

Rafa is today the world's largest

30:57

refugee camp. There is no other way

30:59

to put it. We would hold

31:01

the United States, United

31:04

Kingdom, Germany and all of these

31:06

other countries providing the arms to

31:08

this. We will hold

31:10

them accountable for what is going to

31:13

happen in Rafa. There are countless warnings

31:15

of how bad it would be. More

31:18

than 100 people are reported to have

31:20

been killed in Gaza as they tried

31:22

to reach a convoy carrying food aid.

31:26

The hunger created by war made

31:28

this tragedy. That

31:32

is a fundamental fact of what happened today.

31:36

And UNRWA itself, the

31:38

investigations into Israel's allegations are

31:40

underway. And as we

31:42

said, the staff under suspicion, 12 out of

31:45

13,000 have been fired. But

31:49

UNRWA's biggest donors, the US,

31:51

the UK and Germany, have

31:53

suspended their funding. And

31:56

Philip Lavarini warns the agency

31:58

may not be able to continue. A

32:00

lot is at stake. If the

32:03

agency would fall, not only a

32:05

collective ability to respond to the

32:07

acute needs, would decrease.

32:10

At the time, the International Court of

32:12

Justice is asking all of

32:15

us to increase the humanitarian response.

32:17

But beyond that, there is also

32:19

a risk for the transition period,

32:22

a period which will be very

32:24

painful and miserable for the people

32:26

in Gaza and for which all

32:29

the capacity to provide

32:31

critical services such as

32:34

education to half a million girls

32:36

and boys deeply traumatized that we

32:38

urgently need to bring back into

32:40

an education system. Because if we

32:42

don't do this, we are sowing

32:44

the seeds of future

32:47

hate and resentment. But

32:50

beyond that, there is also

32:52

the political aspect where Palestinian

32:54

will feel that with the

32:56

fall of UNWA, this is

32:59

a big trial of the international

33:01

community, an international community turning its

33:03

back, weakening the

33:05

right of return and

33:08

basically weakening or killing

33:11

the aspiration of Palestinian

33:13

for future self-determination.

33:16

So all this will also be

33:18

seen as an international

33:21

community not generally committed

33:23

to promote a

33:25

proper political solution. It

33:28

is a very difficult time on

33:30

multiple levels. Where

33:32

do you go now? How do

33:34

you motivate yourself to keep on? Listen,

33:37

what motivates myself

33:40

is that I do

33:42

believe that this

33:45

agency remains

33:47

critical, even if sometimes

33:50

it looks like obsolete

33:52

after 75 years. It's

33:55

almost an anachronism that an

33:57

agency be requested to provide.

34:00

public-like services to such

34:02

a large group, but

34:05

on the other hand, the

34:07

UNRWA remains the

34:10

only lifeline in a

34:12

region full of despair,

34:14

a region which now

34:16

deserves that we collectively

34:18

are promoting a

34:20

proper, genuine peace for

34:23

a political solution. And

34:25

my motivation today is

34:27

to try to keep

34:29

afloat this expectation

34:33

of a better future for

34:36

a population which I

34:39

have been in contact in and out

34:41

for the last 33 years. And

34:50

that brings us to the end of this edition of

34:53

Inside Geneva. We know this

34:55

is a controversial topic for

34:57

many, but we hope we've

34:59

managed to bring some clarity to

35:01

a very complex issue. My

35:04

thanks to Philippe Mazzarini, Nina

35:06

Benami, Jan Egland and Louis

35:08

Charbonneau for their time and

35:10

their perspectives. If

35:16

you have comments on Inside Geneva, don't

35:19

hesitate to contact us at

35:21

insidegeniva at swissinfo.ch.

35:25

In our next episode, we'll be

35:27

looking at artificial intelligence. Is

35:29

it a threat to democracy in this

35:32

big election year? And can

35:34

the UN or human rights groups

35:36

provide any guidance to voters? You

35:41

can find us, subscribe to us

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and review us wherever you get

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you've been listening to Inside Geneva

35:50

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35:52

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35:54

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36:05

I'm Imogen Folks, thanks again

36:07

for listening and do join us next

36:09

time on Inside Geneva.