0:01

Welcome to Go ask Alli, a production

0:03

of Shonda Land Audio and partnership with

0:05

iHeartRadio. When

0:08

I have been with friends and that happened and

0:10

I peed my pants, I did lose

0:12

the room. They did leave. I saw

0:14

her light up and I was like, I'm just going to work.

0:17

But we are here until one

0:19

of our last rips. Yeah. I was just the one

0:21

that was meant to take care of mamma. It's for me to remember

0:23

every single day is that I always

0:25

have a choice. Everyone always

0:28

has a choice. Whenever somebody says no,

0:30

you can't, or there's

0:32

no roles for you, or you have to look

0:34

like this, I go. I'll show you. I'll

0:38

show you. Welcome

0:42

to Go ask Ally. I'm Allie Wentworth. So

0:45

this is a very tricky

0:48

subject, the subject of pornography.

0:51

And to be very honest with you,

0:54

I don't watch pornography. I never have.

0:57

It's not something that I look

0:59

for in my life. I have issues

1:01

with it, particularly about the subjucation

1:04

of women and my fear

1:06

that it damages intimacy. And

1:08

I call it a friend of mine recently and I

1:10

said, is everybody watching

1:12

pornography? I mean, I've been married

1:15

for twenty one years and

1:18

I haven't, and she said, oh, Ali,

1:20

listen. First of all, pornography is

1:22

pervasive, so you better get used

1:24

to it. So I decided

1:27

I need to delve into the subject a

1:29

little bit because I am curious

1:32

and I do want to learn. So

1:34

for the sake of this podcast, the

1:37

pornography we are discussing in this

1:39

episode is ethical pornography

1:42

people who want to be there, and

1:45

I also want to know personally does

1:48

pornography affect long term

1:50

monogamous relationships? After

1:52

all, it's a huge part of our culture,

1:58

and there's nobody better to talk to. The

2:00

doctor David Lay. He's a clinical psychologist,

2:03

sex therapist, and author. He's

2:05

written several books and research articles

2:08

on sexuality, sex addiction, and pornography,

2:10

including The Myth of Sex Addiction and

2:12

Ethical porn for Dicks, A Man's Guide

2:14

to Responsible Viewing Pleasure. Doctor

2:17

Lay is a frequent guest in media, on

2:19

television with Anderson Cooper, Katie Currek,

2:21

Doctor Phil and others, and in

2:24

print including The New York Times, CNN,

2:26

and Time and Playboy magazines and

2:29

now on Go Ask Galli the podcast.

2:34

Well, first of all, thank you for being here, Doctor

2:37

David Lay. Thank you for having

2:39

they should be a fun chet Yeah. So you

2:41

know, you've written such

2:43

incredible books. And one

2:45

of the things I was very cognizant of was

2:48

when I started this podcast, there

2:50

are so many different directions I can go in.

2:52

And I realized recently

2:55

as I was talking to women kind

2:57

of my age let's

2:59

say middle age, but let's just say forty and

3:02

people women particularly,

3:04

we're having the same conversations with

3:08

me, which basically

3:10

were is pornography

3:13

okay in a long

3:15

term monogamous relationship? And

3:17

the interesting thing is when

3:19

I talk to women, the majority of the women say

3:22

it's not okay, I'm uncomfortable with it, blah

3:24

blah blah. The men say,

3:26

I see it as something completely

3:28

different. I can compartmentalize it doesn't affect

3:30

my relationship. And every one

3:33

of my gay male friends says

3:36

it's totally fine. It's part of our relationship.

3:39

So I'm curious.

3:42

Does pornography affect monogamous

3:45

relationships? Kennet. It's

3:48

a good question, Allie. At

3:50

first, I think we have to acknowledge not

3:53

all couples are the same as

3:55

you. As you identified. We see this

3:57

popping up for heterosexual couples. We

4:01

don't see pornography being a

4:03

problem or a conflict in

4:06

LGBT couples. We also, interestingly

4:08

don't see it as a problem in non monogamous

4:11

couples. Non monogamous couples

4:13

tend to use pornography more than monogamous

4:15

couples and don't have any problems

4:18

or consequences related to it for the most

4:20

part. When we look at heterosexual

4:22

couples, one of the things

4:24

that we do find is that a hetero

4:26

couple that watches porn together tend

4:29

to have a healthier relationship, have more

4:31

sex, have more novel sex, and have

4:33

a healthier sexual relationship. Couples

4:37

where one partner views

4:40

pornography in a negative way,

4:42

couples where one at least one partner

4:44

has moral concerns about pornography

4:47

are likely to have conflicts over pornography,

4:51

so the pornography represents

4:55

moral attitudes about sex. One

4:58

of the things that I see when I work with couples

5:00

where there is a conflict about pornography

5:03

is that oftentimes one partner

5:06

has the idea that watching

5:08

pornography is a form of infidelity,

5:10

that watching pornography is

5:13

somehow demeaning to them or to

5:15

others. Or that watching

5:17

pornography creates a competition

5:20

with the primary partner, such that one partner

5:22

might feel like, well, you're

5:24

watching people that look different than

5:26

me or are more attractive than me, and so

5:29

you're not attracted to me anymore. Well, one

5:31

of the things I hear from women over and

5:33

over again is what

5:35

am I not enough? That is

5:38

the number one thing I hear over and over. Am

5:40

I not enough? Why does he or

5:43

she need to go outside the relationship

5:46

for arousal And I

5:48

can't possibly compete with that

5:50

idealized version of a sexual

5:53

partner exactly.

5:55

And one of the challenges is that couples

5:58

are oftentimes not talking about that. Those

6:00

attitudes or feelings are there, but

6:03

the couple isn't sitting down and

6:05

having a conversation about their attitudes

6:07

about sex and masturbation. And

6:09

that's also one of those super important

6:11

things, because oftentimes

6:14

couples will fight over pornography

6:17

when actually what they're fighting over is masturbation,

6:20

and most pornography

6:22

is accompanied by masturbation, but

6:26

we oftentimes forget to talk about that

6:28

now. And I think it's important

6:30

because one of the things that we see, particularly

6:32

in heterosexual couples that have been together for a while

6:34

and are monogamous. Is that

6:36

as sex frequency goes down

6:39

in men especially and in women

6:42

to a degree, masturbation and

6:44

porn consumption goes up. So

6:47

people are using pornography

6:49

and masturbation as a way to

6:51

compensate for the couple not having as much

6:53

sex as they would really like to have. That

6:56

conversation oftentimes doesn't happen.

6:59

I'm wondering too, because I'm

7:01

you know again, I'm talking about

7:04

a monogamous relationship that has

7:06

been going on for a while. And I wonder

7:08

too with women my age, like in perimenopause

7:11

and menopause, their libido

7:13

goes way down, so they're already

7:16

feeling insufficient, and then

7:18

I would imagine their husband or

7:21

their spouses or their partners

7:24

porn watching and masturbation goes up,

7:26

and so you then have this inequality

7:29

of kind of sexual

7:32

activity that I

7:34

would imagine causes a lot of problems.

7:37

It certainly can, as again, especially

7:40

when that resentment

7:43

or conflict is there and people aren't talking

7:45

about it. Now, I will say, we

7:47

don't teach people how to talk about this stuff.

7:50

I mean, we don't teach people even somebody

7:53

you've been married to for fifteen or twenty years,

7:55

we don't teach people to talk about

7:57

masturbation. Now again

8:00

when we refocus this on masturbation,

8:03

and I think that's an important piece because

8:07

back in twenty seventeen, a colleague of mine,

8:09

Sam Perry, he's a sociologist in Oklahoma,

8:12

he published data that showed

8:15

at the time that pornography

8:18

used predicted future divorce.

8:20

Now, Sam went back and

8:23

reanalyzed the data a little later

8:25

when he heard from folks like me, and

8:27

interestingly, he found that actually,

8:30

when you separate out the variance

8:32

related to masturbation, that

8:35

pornography used actually was neutral

8:38

to slightly positive for a

8:40

relationship, but masturbation

8:43

frequency predicted future

8:45

relationship problems. Now, it's not that

8:47

masturbation is bad for a marriage, but masturbation

8:51

increases can reflect a

8:53

desired discrepancy, can reflect

8:56

sexual mismatch that isn't getting

8:58

talked about in the relationship.

9:01

That and it's a symptom of

9:03

other issues. When I see couples

9:05

in my office, and I see a lot of them that

9:07

are struggling with pornography,

9:10

it is always the canary in the coal mine.

9:12

There are other issues and problems

9:15

that don't relate to the pornography,

9:18

but the pornography is a symptom of it. So,

9:20

for instance, you know, one partner

9:22

might have a sexual interest that

9:24

the other partner doesn't share and

9:27

actually shames the one partner

9:29

for having an interest in, whether

9:31

it's pornography or fetish

9:34

behavior or BDSM or any

9:36

other kind of behavior. So the partner

9:38

goes to pornography to experience

9:40

that kind of arousal and stimulation

9:44

in a way they can't get with their partner because

9:47

of the conflict and the undisclosed

9:49

or unresolved kind of mismatch. I

9:52

mean, you've talked about symptoms

9:54

of pornography and masturbation being

9:56

abandonment and rejection. I

9:59

mean, do you have to and if you

10:01

did really go into deep therapy

10:04

about the underlying issues, would

10:07

that somehow change their

10:09

pornography viewing if you really got

10:11

to the root of it. I've

10:14

seen that happen. Definitely. When

10:16

we can get the couple to

10:18

talk about the fears,

10:21

the emotions, the

10:24

thoughts that they are having about

10:26

this issue, then we

10:29

can start addressing those real

10:31

issues. Unfortunately, pornography

10:34

is a it's a sexy, shiny object

10:37

that distracts us from dealing

10:39

with those real underlying

10:41

conflicts. And I think that's so important

10:43

because you know, if the husband,

10:47

and unfortunately this often is

10:49

a male female kind of dynamic, if

10:51

the husband doesn't really understand

10:55

the degree to which his

10:57

wife feels threatened by

11:00

the women in porn, then he

11:02

can't do the work to

11:04

let her know how attractive he thinks

11:06

she is, how attracted he is still

11:09

to her, and

11:11

that she is somebody he lust

11:13

after still after fifteen years of marriage.

11:16

So explain the sexual shiny

11:18

object syndrome exactly.

11:22

So whenever, whenever

11:25

sex is present and porn

11:27

is a big, sexy, shining object,

11:29

we get distracted by that and we

11:32

chase it like a rabbit down a hole and

11:35

blame lots and lots of problems

11:37

on that instead

11:40

of addressing again

11:42

all these underlying kind of problems. Now,

11:44

both men and women use

11:47

pornography viewing as a way to

11:49

deal with negative emotions. Men

11:51

in particular used pornography

11:54

and masturbation of pornography as a

11:56

way to kind of turn off anxiety because

11:58

it is a very effective strategy for that.

12:01

Well, how is it effective for anxiety?

12:03

Evolutionarily? You know, we were

12:05

built as a species that

12:09

made it at any opportunity,

12:11

and if we were nervous about

12:13

that saber tooth tiger getting us, you

12:16

would jerk off, Well, you

12:18

wouldn't. You wouldn't jerk off,

12:21

you wouldn't masturbate. And so sexual

12:24

arousal turns off anxiety.

12:27

It turned you know, changes some of

12:29

the function in our brain um so

12:32

that we are more focused on pleasure.

12:34

Pleasure feels better. It puts

12:36

away you know, our discussed

12:39

our even our our tendency

12:41

to feel discussed for something goes down

12:44

when we're sexually aroused, and then unfortunately

12:46

oftentimes it comes back after our orgasm,

12:49

and then people start feeling discussed even

12:51

at the thing, at what they were fantasizing

12:53

about or watching. How does

12:55

that differ for women? Women

12:58

have more effective and

13:01

varied coping strategies to deal with

13:03

negative emotions. You know, women from

13:05

from an early age or taught to express,

13:08

acknowledge, identify, and

13:10

cope with negative emotions. Guys

13:13

a lot of times in my office, sitting on my

13:15

couch, guys don't

13:17

even have very good ability to name

13:20

the negative emotions that they're feeling, so

13:23

they oftentimes don't

13:25

practice many skills to

13:27

deal with negative emotions and because

13:30

watching pornography is a great way to turn

13:32

off the depression or the anxiety

13:35

and not worry about those things. Right, then

13:38

guys can oftentimes overuse

13:40

it. Now, if if

13:42

that is going on in a relationship

13:45

and we don't deal

13:47

with it, we don't we don't help the guy

13:50

learn other coping strategies

13:52

to deal with those negative emotions. Then

13:55

oftentimes what happens is we

13:57

are trying to take away some of

13:59

they's only coping strategies

14:01

for bad feelings, and

14:05

that can actually backlash and increase,

14:07

right, increase anxiety and depression

14:10

because now he is feeling

14:12

sad or depressed or worried and he

14:14

can't go to those things to feel better. Again,

14:17

if we don't deal with those underlying

14:20

issues for the man and the couple

14:22

and we just focus on the pornography,

14:24

we're missing the point, right. Um,

14:27

But it is possible for

14:30

both partners to feel

14:33

arousal at the same time with pornography.

14:37

Yeah, oftentimes, Um, that

14:39

is one of the that that

14:42

that's one of the strategies when couples watch

14:44

porn together. Now, I think

14:46

and in my third book about Responsible

14:49

porn Use for Men, which is a great title

14:51

by the way, thank you, um

14:54

ethical dicks for all those

14:56

guys named Richard who liked to watch porn um

14:59

and and even

15:01

just the idea that there is a thing called

15:03

ethical pornography is oftentimes

15:06

a challenge for people because

15:09

they think that all pornography is inherently

15:11

exploitive and if we if we then

15:13

start to that is one of the

15:15

things that oftentimes women fear

15:18

about pornography is that women are being

15:20

exploited in it, that they can't

15:22

watch it ethically or safely. And

15:24

I like to say, hey, there's fair trade born

15:27

out there, just like fair trade coffee, where

15:29

you don't have to feel guilty. Yeah, I'm

15:31

trying to be more open minded about

15:34

it, particularly when it comes to couples

15:37

and how it relates to a relationship.

15:42

There's a lot more to come after the short break

15:52

and we're back. I

15:55

just want to want to ask you right here

15:58

about the men of

16:00

sex addiction, because you've got very

16:03

specific views about it, and

16:06

one has a tendency in much

16:08

of what I've read, particularly women, that

16:11

when men use a lot of pornography,

16:13

they are labeled as sex addicts, and

16:16

that's not always true true,

16:20

And I'm on record for really

16:22

challenging the whole concept of sex addiction

16:24

again because it distracts us from dealing

16:26

with, oftentimes the real issues. So the

16:29

research actually today,

16:31

over the past seven years or so, has

16:34

found that there are roughly two things

16:36

that predominantly predict whether

16:38

a male is going to identify as

16:40

a porn addict. One is whether

16:43

he was raised religious or not. Two

16:46

now is whether he is highly

16:48

narcissistic. And the

16:51

religious conflict is coming

16:55

from the fact that these are men who

16:57

believe that pornography and masturbation

17:00

immoral, and then they engage

17:02

in that behavior, and then they feel

17:04

bad for engaging in the behavior. The

17:07

problem is not the pornography. The

17:09

problem is engaging in a behavior

17:11

that you disagree with and

17:14

not ever examining or addressing

17:16

or dealing with that internal conflict.

17:19

The narcissism is a

17:21

new finding that is popping up in research

17:24

just recently, and narcissists

17:26

and narcissistic males oftentimes

17:29

engage in more selfish, exploitive

17:32

sexual behavior, and when

17:35

they are having conflict about it,

17:37

they're much less likely to take personal responsibility

17:40

for it and instead blame somebody or

17:42

something else like pornography, which

17:44

is why you see so many celebrities in the past,

17:47

that's right, who have been you know, incredibly

17:51

unfaithful and a

17:53

bit of a player or a dog, and

17:55

all of a sudden they're like, I'm a sex addict,

17:57

I'm going to rehab, I'll be back in three

17:59

months and all is forgiven. And yeah,

18:02

do they address it and rehab sex

18:05

addiction summer camp. No, they don't address

18:07

it there. Instead they do

18:09

things like ride horses and you

18:12

know, engage in really unsupported

18:16

kind of therapy. It's really important to

18:18

know that. You know, after forty years of

18:20

the sex addiction model existing, there's no

18:22

data showing that that treatment works.

18:25

There's there's no evidence

18:27

that sex addiction treatment is effective

18:29

at addressing any of these problems. Instead,

18:33

what does work for people that are struggling with

18:35

pornography is cognitive behavioral

18:37

therapy or what's called acceptance and commitment

18:39

therapy. These are both strategies

18:41

that don't try to stop the behavior,

18:44

but instead try to address and explore

18:47

the function and the meaning of

18:49

the behavior. That again is

18:51

I think the thing that gets

18:53

lost when we overfocus on the sexual

18:55

behavior. We stop recognizing

18:58

that this is a behavior that's occurred in

19:00

a person, and in a

19:03

relationship, and in a personal

19:05

history of sexual attitudes and morality,

19:08

and to understand that

19:10

sexual behavior, we have to understand all of

19:12

those things. Is there a theme that

19:14

you have seen a lot in your

19:17

work when it comes to pornography and

19:19

couples, They recurring theme. I

19:21

should say largely

19:24

what you really described early on is

19:26

that the wife

19:29

oftentimes has concerns about

19:31

what the pornography use means, and

19:36

the couple isn't talking about it oftentimes

19:38

because the husband is ashamed. Now, I

19:41

do see men who don't

19:44

want to pressure their wife for sex.

19:46

They know that she's not feeling particularly

19:48

into it, and they're going to feel guilty

19:50

if they keep hounding her to

19:52

have sex, So they masturbate to porn

19:55

as an experience, as a release, so

19:57

that they don't have to feel like they're pressure

20:00

on her. So it's interesting

20:02

that there's empathy. They're motivating

20:05

these behaviors for the husbands,

20:08

so they feel worse about sort

20:10

of asking their wife for sex

20:13

more than feeling bad about watching

20:16

pornography. Oftentimes, Yeah,

20:18

because because they know

20:20

the wife feels pressured and they don't want

20:22

to be that guy. Yeah, that can't

20:24

feel good. Sexually either when you know your

20:27

partner's not into it. Yeah. Yeah. Now. The

20:29

one of the other things that we are seeing

20:31

in recent research and clinically is

20:33

that men

20:37

who experience any form of sexual

20:39

dysfunction, whether it's premature ejaculation,

20:41

delayed ejaculation, or a rectile dysfunction,

20:44

are fifty percent more likely

20:47

to experience symptoms of

20:49

that dysfunction when they are attempting

20:51

to have partnered sex and not during

20:54

masturbation. So the

20:57

wife can get upset and say,

20:59

well, you don't have problems with your sexual

21:01

function when you're masturbating watching porn,

21:04

but when you try and have sex with me, these

21:07

problems are coming up and you can't get hard.

21:10

Is there something wrong with me? Or did

21:13

porn do this? But the problem

21:16

is the sexual dysfunction, And again

21:18

the problem oftentimes is anxiety.

21:21

It is much easier to relax,

21:25

watch pornography and masturbate. You don't have to

21:27

buy the internet dinner, you don't have to try and

21:29

find its clitterus, you don't have to worry

21:31

about giving the Internet an orgasm.

21:34

But when we're with a partner, you know, we

21:36

do have to be mindful, We do have to be

21:38

thoughtful and pay attention to our partner's

21:41

needs. And for men that are dealing

21:43

with sexual dysfunction and have

21:45

anxiety, that is a recipe

21:48

for struggle. So one of the things that

21:50

I do with those kinds of couples is,

21:53

hey, let's look at the differences between

21:56

watching pornography and masturbating versus

22:00

partnered sex. Now, what are some

22:02

things that we can try and learn from it?

22:04

Can or can we try and take pressure off?

22:06

Can we increase repertoire for behaviors

22:09

that are not penis focused? Can

22:12

we expand the definition of sex?

22:14

I encourage a lot of these couples to engage

22:17

in mutual masturbation, to start

22:19

learning about how each other

22:21

self pleasures, so that now

22:23

we can take that knowledge back

22:26

into partnered sex. Yes, because

22:28

I've heard a lot of women talk

22:30

about how they can't have orgasms

22:32

with their husband, but they can alone

22:35

with a vibrator or and

22:38

so's it seems to me the

22:40

problems occur when everybody's basically getting

22:42

themselves off, but they're not doing it

22:44

together. And particularly as we

22:46

age, you know, the sexual function

22:49

you know, gets challenged by our aging

22:51

bodies. And so again,

22:53

can we now start to look

22:55

at what do we get out of sex that

22:58

maybe we don't have to have an orgasm together,

23:00

but we get the cuddling, we get the connection,

23:02

we get the physical touch,

23:05

we get the acceptance and the affirmation,

23:08

and we start valuing all of

23:10

those things and we become less

23:12

goal focused, right for

23:15

the sex. That's an important

23:17

thing. Now. One thing that came to mind

23:19

just now as you talked about the women with their

23:21

vibrators. This one husband read

23:23

my book Ethical Porn for Dicks, and he

23:26

came to me and he said, I

23:29

get it now. He said, porn is

23:31

a tool for increasing arousal,

23:34

just like my wife's vibrator

23:36

is a tool for increasing her arousal.

23:39

And research actually supports that

23:42

is that when people, particularly men, watch

23:44

pornography, they're much more likely

23:46

to have a more powerful orgasm

23:49

to get aroused again and have a stronger

23:52

erection than when they are fantasizing

23:55

without pornography. So now,

23:57

nobody's ever really done a comparison between

24:00

mean people masturbating

24:02

watching pornography versus sex, although

24:05

there is interesting research that shows that

24:07

men who watch pornography more

24:11

actually get more aroused

24:14

with their partner and watching

24:16

pornography and masturbation frequency,

24:19

it's not like it takes something away

24:21

from libido or sexuality, but instead

24:24

it oftentimes is an indicator

24:26

of a higher level of sexual interest

24:29

in libido. So, you know, there's

24:31

this idea that if you masturbate,

24:34

then you're taking something away

24:36

from the sexual connection of the relationship

24:40

outside the refractory period

24:42

of maybe an hour or thirty minutes, that

24:45

doesn't appear to be true. So

24:48

when there is dysfunction

24:51

which is based in an

24:53

emotional or deeply

24:56

psychological way, is the only

24:59

way out to have therapy

25:01

and to dig into that stuff, not

25:05

necessarily. And so you know, there's research

25:07

in Canada where

25:09

they looked at people longitudinally over about

25:12

a four or five year period of time and

25:14

found that people who identified

25:17

as sex addicts or porn addicts were

25:21

generally ninety percent likely

25:24

to not identify that way within a year's

25:26

time without having gotten treatment

25:28

or therapy. What that

25:30

message is to me is

25:33

that oftentimes sex

25:35

related problems are

25:39

kind of like an adjustment disorder. That

25:41

people are struggling with something in their

25:43

life, maybe divorce,

25:45

maybe relationship problems, maybe stress

25:48

at work, and they

25:50

are trying desperately to

25:52

feel better and they're using sex

25:55

to try to feel better. As

25:57

their life changes in some of those life

26:00

problems get better. Oftentimes

26:02

some of those problems will go away and the

26:04

sex stops being a problem. There

26:07

are some issues though, erectile

26:09

dysfunction, delayed ejaculation,

26:11

an orgasmia, that those

26:13

are anatomical or physical. These

26:17

well, we really struggle

26:19

at this point to know how much of those

26:21

issues are physical versus

26:23

psychological. Typically it's

26:25

a mix of both. You know, people men

26:28

who struggle to restrain

26:30

orgasm or to have orgasm when they want,

26:33

you know, premature or delayed ejaculation.

26:35

There is a very significant physical and genetic

26:38

component to that. We can improve it

26:41

to a degree with psychological treatment,

26:44

but oftentimes we can't

26:47

fix it entirely because of the

26:49

physical components. Now there are some medications

26:51

that we can also add in to help

26:54

with those things. So we have to address these issues,

26:57

all of them. We are embodied

26:59

people, and sexuality is

27:02

both body and mind, and we have

27:04

to go at it in that way. And having

27:07

a good sex therapist who

27:09

doesn't engage in shame and

27:11

who is educated about the wide

27:14

diversity of normal can help

27:16

us identify how

27:19

our mind is contributing

27:21

to these problems and maybe give us

27:23

some strategies to explore to

27:26

pull those problems away. And if

27:28

you introduce pornography

27:31

into your love making, isn't

27:33

there a fear that you cannot then go

27:35

back to having sex without

27:37

the pornography. I mean, if it's so if

27:40

it's so much better, how do

27:42

you ever then kind of go back

27:44

and say, oh shit, we're in this hotel and they don't

27:46

have moren what are we going to do? You

27:49

know, sexuality is really resilient,

27:52

and I think that one of the things I worry

27:54

about and a lot of the social dialogue

27:56

about sexuality is that we act

27:58

as though it can get broken really easily. And

28:01

generally sex

28:05

is responsive and able

28:07

to absorb these kinds of different things.

28:10

The pornography just like a

28:12

sex toy, just like a vibrator, just

28:15

like lingerie, just like

28:18

you know, chocolate and strawberries can

28:21

be something that couples

28:23

can enjoy as a part of their

28:25

sexuality. And typically

28:28

I don't see couples where

28:31

it takes over. Now, I do see couples

28:34

where one partner becomes demanding,

28:37

becomes kind of bossy and resentful

28:41

if they can't have

28:44

you know, pornography present. That's

28:47

not a problem of the pornography. That's

28:49

a problem of this person and

28:51

their relationship style. And

28:54

rather than talking about the pornography, I

28:56

want to talk about why

28:58

are they struggling to be empathic for their

29:01

partners' needs and how can we increase

29:03

compassion, empathy and communication

29:06

about needs. I'm

29:08

curious about something you just said

29:10

because I've never quite understood

29:13

the chocolate strawberry food

29:16

addition to sex, because I've

29:19

never tried it. But I don't. I don't like

29:21

to mix. You don't like it secks,

29:24

Yeah, I just never I never quite

29:26

got it. I understand the feathers

29:29

and the lingerie, it's

29:31

the food. I'm not excited about

29:35

it. It is a sensuous

29:37

pleasure. It is again

29:39

one of the aspects

29:42

of our physical life where we can feel pleasure.

29:45

You know, there's a reason why Kellogg's corn flakes

29:47

was invented. It was invented as a bland

29:50

food that wouldn't trigger

29:52

people to be overly focused on physical

29:54

pleasure that would lead them to masturbate

29:57

or want to have sex. Kellogg was against

30:00

masturbation and believed

30:02

that if people enjoyed physical pleasures

30:05

too much that it would

30:07

take them over. This

30:09

is true, This is it. Yeah, totally

30:12

true. This is yeah. Kellex

30:14

cornflakes and Graham crackers now and Graham

30:16

who invented Graham crackers, believe the same

30:18

thing. But um didn't

30:21

anticipate s'mores because if you

30:23

you know, if you bring chocolate and chocolate again

30:25

and marshmallows, you know, Graham crackers are pretty

30:27

sell. By the way, I will take us some more

30:30

over sex any day of the week. So that they failed

30:32

that way, So yes, so people

30:35

can by bringing those

30:37

sensual pleasures into sex.

30:40

It gets to what I was talking about a moment

30:42

ago, trying to expand our definition

30:44

of sex. And though as we

30:46

age, can we pull away from

30:50

sex has to be penis and vagina

30:52

penetration to you know, tell orgasm,

30:55

and can we start expanding

30:57

it to include other aspects

31:00

of connected pleasure And

31:03

for some people bringing food

31:06

in now, some people are really into it,

31:08

and they engage in what they call splashing, which

31:10

is like throwing food at each other or

31:12

having having sex or sex

31:15

play like in a baby pool filled

31:17

with food, but

31:21

you use the baby pool so you don't make a mess,

31:23

and then you go get in the shower. I got

31:26

a lot to talk to my husband about. Okay, that's

31:28

so, that's a thing. It's a thing, and

31:31

it's not a thing for everybody, but it's a

31:33

thing for some people. And if

31:35

they do it in a healthy way, if they do it

31:37

with consent and honesty and shared

31:39

values and without exploitation or negative

31:42

pressure, it's healthy. And I

31:44

think that's one of the things that sex

31:46

therapists have really progressed on in

31:48

the past decade or two is

31:51

recognizing that just

31:53

because I wouldn't do something doesn't

31:56

mean it's unhealthy. I mean that was the That

31:58

was Kinsey's definition of an infamaniac

32:01

an anybody who has more sex than the therapist.

32:04

Now we recognize that

32:07

about fifty percent of people have

32:09

sexual fantasies or interests that

32:11

we used to think were unhealthy

32:14

or abnormal or aberrantn't

32:18

We didn't know it was that many because they knew

32:20

we thought there was something wrong with them, so they kept their

32:22

mouth shut. Right now we're

32:24

finding out through the Internet and through pronography,

32:27

we're actually learning a lot of things about

32:29

people's secret sexuality

32:31

through chronography use that we never

32:33

knew before, and is

32:37

because we're taking away

32:39

some of that secret chain. It's

32:41

interesting to look at our country

32:44

historically. And I

32:46

was thinking earlier when we were talking

32:48

about you know, people have fetishes,

32:50

people introduced things into their relationships

32:52

that work for them. In the seventies, you know, key

32:55

parties were such a big part of a

32:57

portion of our culture. And

33:00

I'm just curious with your research.

33:03

It doesn't really work to

33:05

add a third person in, does it. You

33:08

know, I know many

33:11

non monogamous, very healthy,

33:13

long lived couples that

33:16

explore sexuality with

33:18

other people, whether together or apart,

33:21

and are able to make that work. Now, it's

33:24

again, not all couples are the same. It works

33:26

for some people, that doesn't work for others. People

33:28

that you know, are more neurotic,

33:30

people that have greater levels

33:32

of insecurity or jealousy are less

33:35

likely to be able to make that work. People

33:37

with greater openness to experience,

33:39

people with greater emotional stability

33:43

and better communication skills are

33:45

able to make that work. My first book actually

33:47

is about couples

33:49

that brought other men into the relationship

33:52

to have sex with the wife. And I

33:54

got to tell you, my first reaction when I met

33:56

those couples was kind of like yours. Oh,

33:58

this can't work. And then I sat

34:00

down and I talked to these couples, and I found

34:03

out that many of them had been making it work for twenty

34:05

or thirty years, and it

34:07

brought excitement and energy to

34:10

the marriage. For some of

34:12

the men, it took some pressure off for

34:14

them to satisfy their wife.

34:17

For some of the women, it became a

34:19

really interesting kind of place of empowerment

34:21

where the women were able to now

34:24

express and embrace their sexuality

34:27

in a new and kind of novel way

34:29

that they'd never been allowed to before. Wow.

34:32

I mean, because you never hear, or you

34:34

rarely hear about, you know,

34:36

a woman and her

34:39

being allowed to have multiple partners. You

34:41

know, usually it's the other way around, and it's some

34:43

weird cult and you know they're all brainwashed

34:46

women that you know, well, we saw it with Jerry

34:48

Foldball Junior, yes, recently. Yeah,

34:50

And you know, and that actually

34:52

gets to the point I was making. I Mean, one of the

34:54

things that I found super interesting as I

34:56

watched that documentary was

34:59

that, you know, Becky had Jerry

35:01

was basically her only relationship she started

35:03

dating in when she was a teenager, and

35:07

you know, it is at least a hypothesis

35:09

that we can explore is that exploring

35:13

sex with other men, including the poolboy,

35:16

was a way for her to explore something

35:18

that she missed by getting

35:20

into a monogamous relationship so early.

35:23

Would you say it kept the relationship together,

35:26

That maybe if she wasn't able to explore that,

35:28

she would go off and be unfaithful

35:30

unbeknownst to her husband. Possibly

35:35

that is one of the things that you

35:37

know, And I differ somewhat from some sex therapist

35:40

who say, you know, opening a relationship

35:42

in response to infidelity or to

35:45

save a relationship never works. But

35:48

I've seen I've seen couples where it did work.

35:50

I've seen couples where infidelity

35:53

got exposed and now it led

35:55

them to talk about some of the things that had

35:57

been missing in the relationship

36:00

and in themselves, and

36:02

for some of them, exploring non

36:04

monogamy became a way to a

36:07

strategy to fill some

36:09

of those needs. And

36:12

it's time for a short break. Welcome

36:22

back to go. Ask Alli talk

36:26

to me about orgasmic meditation,

36:31

which I just like to say, yeah, oh

36:33

yeah, don't be all I mean on Yeah.

36:38

So, orgasmic meditation is an interesting

36:41

kind of thing that popped up and it was kind of cult related

36:44

a few years ago. And it's

36:46

an interesting practice where a female

36:49

lies prone and a partner

36:52

wearing a glove and using lube, engages

36:55

in kind of ritualized, very

36:57

very stylized manual stimuli

37:00

of the of the female's clarists for a period

37:02

of time. And the point is

37:04

not so much achieving orgasm, but orgasm

37:07

is oftentimes a component of it. For

37:10

many women that that practiced

37:12

it, it became a way

37:14

for them to connect with their sexual

37:17

pleasure in a way that many of them

37:19

had never had before. And you know, one

37:21

of the one of the things I see that's just super

37:23

sad is women coming into my office

37:26

who you know, have just been taught

37:28

to be ashamed of their sexuality,

37:31

of their genitals, of their orgasm

37:34

um, and they've never achieved sexual pleasure.

37:36

It makes them feel so guilty, and

37:39

so things practices like orgasmic

37:41

me meditation are

37:43

a way to for

37:46

women to connect with that and to

37:48

connect with their partner doing it.

37:50

So there's been research

37:53

looking at it and finding

37:56

that it increases sexual pleasure, it

37:58

increases orgasm connection or

38:01

ability. The partner

38:03

who is giving has to learn how

38:05

to control themselves. Right, it's not about

38:07

them. They have to restrain

38:11

their desire to know jump in

38:14

and make it about them and

38:16

focus on their partner's pleasure. And that

38:18

give and take and

38:20

the focus on female pleasure I think is really

38:23

remarkable. Now, there was some some unhealthy

38:25

things about the group,

38:28

some of the groups that were doing orgasmic meditation,

38:30

and it turned into pressure and some

38:32

exploitation, but

38:35

there are definitely some valuable things

38:37

that came out of that, right, And

38:39

the other thing I'm really curious about

38:42

is Hypersexual Behavioral Inventory.

38:46

So the HBI, the hyper Sexual Behavior

38:48

Inventory, was created by a colleague

38:50

of mine, Rory Reid, as a

38:53

PhD at UCLA, and

38:56

it's nineteen items

38:58

that assess a range of sexual

39:01

behaviors, not just pornography viewing,

39:03

and it helps

39:05

to identify people who

39:07

are having problems as

39:09

a result of their behaviors. And

39:12

that's an important thing to note because

39:14

many there

39:17

are many people out there who have lots of

39:19

sex and have no problems at Gay

39:22

men and swingers have more

39:24

sex than sex addicts ever

39:26

dreamed of having, but they don't have problems

39:29

because they've integrated into

39:31

their lives and it's part of it's part

39:33

of their culture, so that it's not

39:35

creating a conflict and there's not a lot of

39:37

shame, probably right, exactly

39:40

exactly, And a lot of this goes

39:42

back to shame. A lot of the problems

39:44

related to sexual behavior come out of shame

39:47

and guilt and conflict between

39:50

what we think we're supposed to be versus

39:52

what our body and libido wants.

39:56

The HBI is a good way

39:58

of assessing the

40:00

level of that. Now, there used to be these these

40:02

tests, the Sex Addiction Screening Test and

40:05

stuff like that. Basically, if you took the

40:07

test and you've ever

40:09

masturbated or had a sex fantasy

40:11

that you felt a little bit of shame about,

40:13

you came up as a sex addict on the

40:16

HBI. It's actually normed on

40:18

a general population, and

40:20

so doctor Reid keeps

40:22

adjusting the scoring

40:25

because he's identified that there's

40:27

a lot of people out there that engage in a lot of sex

40:29

and that sometimes feeling guilty or having

40:31

sex problems doesn't

40:33

automatically make you unhealthy. And

40:35

so that that's the most important

40:38

thing I think in research around this is we

40:40

have to recognize we are still

40:42

learning what normal sex

40:45

is because it's been so secret

40:47

and so ashamed for so long. Oh

40:50

well, I would say, on the other hand, too,

40:52

addressing a lot of

40:54

what we've talked about before, addressing

40:57

sexual dysfunction, or

40:59

even going so far as to you know, some

41:01

of the criminal things about sexuality

41:04

and predators, and you know, there's

41:07

a lot of psychology to mind

41:09

there, and we have a tendency just to

41:11

say this is bad, put

41:14

them away, or I'm bad. So

41:16

I'm you know, I'm not going to allow

41:18

my sexual being to be present

41:21

in the world at all. Right, So

41:24

what ways can can pornography

41:26

be helpful in a relationship?

41:30

Is it pure arousalum?

41:33

No, I don't think so. Actually, for instance,

41:35

people that watch pornography

41:38

tend to become more egalitarian

41:40

over time, tend to become

41:42

less religious, and tend to be

41:45

more aware of and supportive

41:47

of female pleasure. So

41:49

watching pornography can expose

41:52

people to a wide diversity

41:54

of sexual fantasies and behaviors,

41:57

even things that don't turn you on. And

42:00

that's one of the things that we see as

42:02

people start to watch pornography

42:04

is they become more accepting of behaviors

42:07

that they themselves don't find arousing

42:11

watching pornography together for a couple. One

42:14

of the most positive

42:17

things is that it injects novelty

42:19

and sexual novelty into the relationship.

42:22

Oh hey, let's try that thing that we just saw

42:24

on the pornography because

42:27

that looked kind of exciting and

42:30

kind of interesting. Now we saw that with

42:32

fifty Shades of Gray that you

42:34

know. The enormous popularity of that book

42:36

in that movie led

42:39

to many many women going

42:41

to their boyfriends or husbands

42:43

and saying, hey, I kind

42:45

of want to try this because I got really turned on reading

42:48

this book. Pornography is the same

42:50

thing. Erotica is really

42:53

pornography for women and

42:55

does kind of the same thing. Increases

42:57

arousal and injects kind of novelty

43:00

and new ideas just

43:02

asking for a friend. I

43:05

think a lot of women's

43:07

aversion to pornography is that

43:10

the things we talked about before, but also

43:12

it's stuff being done to them. Is

43:15

there a niche in the

43:17

pornography world that is empowering

43:20

pornography for women specifically,

43:23

so it's not just a niche. I mean. One of the things

43:25

that a lot of people don't actually understand is that

43:27

the majority of pornography that's actually

43:29

made in the United States now is

43:31

made by independent female performers

43:34

who are producing their own content. Pink

43:37

and White Production and Afterglow

43:39

are two that I've

43:42

had communications with and seeing their

43:44

material, and they've participated in trainings

43:47

that I do that our female

43:49

lad and producing content with

43:52

an eye towards female sexual arousal.

43:54

And this isn't kind of the nineteen seventies

43:57

and eighties, you know, soft

43:59

porn. It's still pretty hard porn. But

44:02

a woman who's watching it can rest assured

44:05

that everybody that's in it is consenting

44:08

to be there, that they are not engaging in behaviors

44:10

they don't want to engage in. And the

44:13

material is produced in a way that focuses

44:16

on a bit more

44:18

realistic connection and

44:21

arousal kind of practices.

44:24

You know, it's not performative. And

44:27

does it start with the men doing the dishes

44:29

and the laundry because in

44:33

a little made outfit, yeah, yeah,

44:35

and then they're submissive. I mean that to me

44:37

would probably make billions of dollars

44:44

before we go as you know, I

44:46

feel like I don't feel like

44:48

it. I do. I ask a lot of questions on my podcast

44:51

because it's like a masterclass for me. And it's always

44:53

stuff that I'm just fascinated by and interested

44:55

in. But I always allow my guests

44:57

to ask me a question, ask

45:00

me anything you want. So, you

45:02

know, I did some googling alley and I

45:05

saw that Yeah yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah

45:07

you got you got a Google and I

45:09

saw it. Back in nineteen when

45:11

you actually talked about pornography and

45:14

you said that you would watch

45:16

pornography with your kids to help

45:18

them talk with you about

45:21

sex and what real sex is. Did

45:24

that ever happen and what was that like? Ah?

45:27

Yes, you

45:29

know, I got a lot of backlash for that

45:32

comment, and it was actually taken

45:34

out of context. I was talking about

45:37

educating our teens when

45:39

it came to pornography, and

45:42

I made a comment about I think

45:44

about if I had a teenage boy, I might

45:47

if you wanted to show me what he was watching, I

45:50

would be able to talk about it. But to answer your

45:52

question, no, I never watched pornography

45:55

with my daughters. That's a shame. I

45:57

you know, I thought it was such a healthy statement. I'm

45:59

sorry you got backlash. There's a researcher,

46:02

Emily Rothman in Boston who

46:05

teaches porn literacy and

46:07

actually has evidence based research

46:09

supporting that by teaching young

46:12

people about what porn is and isn't,

46:15

we can take away many of the problems

46:17

that porn might cause. So I thought

46:19

you I thought your statement was brilliant, and I'm

46:22

sad. I'm sad you got the hit. What

46:24

I was saying was I think our teenagers,

46:27

because pornography is so pervasive, need

46:29

to be educated. I think with

46:32

girls there's one kind of education,

46:34

but I do think with boys

46:36

it's it's at a much younger

46:39

age. Because they're all watching porn.

46:41

We have to really help them understand

46:44

what true intimacy looks like,

46:48

what kind of pornography, particularly

46:50

the dark and very illegal

46:52

stuff. Kids

46:55

that are already precociously sexual,

46:57

kids that are already interested

46:59

in sad tend to be the ones who

47:01

seek out pornography at earlier

47:04

ages. Most of the problems

47:06

of pornography on adolescents

47:09

would be addressed and mitigated

47:11

with effective sex education. But we

47:13

get so focused talking about pornography

47:16

and the negative messages

47:18

that kids are learning from it that we kind

47:20

of forget we need to put healthy

47:22

messages out there. If we don't want the negative

47:25

messages to stick Yeah, I completely

47:27

agree. I mean you think about you

47:29

know, and night. Again, if I were a teenage

47:32

boy and sex ed was like the

47:34

penis goes in the vagina, it

47:36

throws up, and a baby's made, and then I

47:38

discovered pornography. I mean, come

47:41

on, there's no comparison. So

47:43

I agree with you. I think the sex education

47:45

or country could be amped up a lot more,

47:48

just to show them what real women

47:51

look like when they're naked and what real

47:54

sexual, healthy relationships look

47:56

like. So again that was

47:59

sadly taken out of context, but

48:02

what I was really saying was how

48:04

important it is to educate

48:06

our teens about pornography. But

48:08

you still open the door. Yeah, and I do

48:10

feel like I've educated them another way exactly.

48:12

And kids that can

48:14

talk with their parents about sexuality

48:17

are much more likely to have healthy sexuality

48:19

as adults. Yeah. I want

48:21

to help people be healthy and have

48:24

healthy sex. I love that. Well,

48:26

that's your bumper sticker. Thank

48:28

you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This was fascinating.

48:30

So I thank you so much for

48:33

talking to me about this, Thanks for having me, thank

48:35

you, thank you for doing this. I mean, one of the

48:37

things that I see is that these kinds

48:39

of conversations help all

48:42

of the listeners to address

48:45

the issues of shame and sexuality

48:47

stigma in their life. So you're changing

48:50

the world by having these conversations.

48:55

Wow, human sexuality will

48:57

continue to boggle my mind. But so many

48:59

great insights, so interesting

49:01

to me because I have such rigid

49:04

ideas about pornography and

49:06

have been fascinated for a long time about how

49:09

it is incorporated into a

49:11

monogamous couple. So lots of

49:14

eye opening for me. And also he's

49:16

got an array of great books to

49:18

read if you'd like to know more, and you

49:20

can find him on Instagram at David

49:22

lay PhD. And

49:25

thank you all for listening to Go Ask Alli,

49:28

and for more information on what you've heard

49:30

in this episode, check out our show notes. Be

49:32

sure to subscribe, rate and review. Go ask

49:34

Alli and follow me on social media on Instagram

49:36

at the Real Alli Wentworth. And Now,

49:38

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49:41

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49:43

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49:47

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49:49

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49:53

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49:55

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