0:01

Welcome to Go ask Alli, a production

0:03

of Shonda Land Audio and partnership with iHeartRadio.

0:07

Rolling on the full. Loafing is a thing I can. I've

0:09

seen We've all seen people do it. I've done

0:11

it. I've kiddies for me.

0:14

Now the work is to warrant what

0:16

I have, even kind of shinny

0:18

stuff. You know, that's my work. It's imperfect.

0:20

So let me ask you a question about actors because

0:23

you are Yeah, me

0:25

too. We are old, funny duddies. We

0:27

go to sleep at ten, we wake up at six,

0:30

we go to bed at eight, So there are

0:32

more funny duddies than you. You are the

0:34

funny duddiest. Yes, welcome

0:42

to go ask Alli. I'm Alle Wentworth. I've

0:45

always been fascinated by cult. I think

0:47

when I was in college in

0:50

Upstate, New York, the whole Moon

0:53

cult was living all around us,

0:55

and I didn't understand what it was and I was afraid

0:57

I was going to be kidnapped by them and

1:00

had so many questions. And ever since then, whenever

1:02

I see a cult documentary

1:05

or some kind of a streamer about

1:07

cults, I'm always tuning

1:09

in. So what is it about

1:11

cults that were so fascinated by

1:13

Are we afraid of becoming engulfed

1:16

in one, getting lost in one, being

1:18

brainwashed by one? There's

1:23

no better person to talk

1:25

to about cults, about brainwashing,

1:28

mind control, all of it than doctor

1:31

Stephen Hassen. He's

1:33

a PhD. He's a mental health professional

1:36

and expert in an educator in cult

1:38

and undue influenced tactics. A

1:41

former member of the Moon Cult himself,

1:43

doctor Hassen was d programmed when

1:45

he was twenty two. Doctor Hassen has

1:47

been working in the field of cults now for over

1:50

forty years and has developed models

1:52

to identify control tactics. He's

1:54

a founding director of the Freedom of Mind

1:56

Resource Center, and he's the author of four

1:59

books on cult and mind control, and

2:01

also hosts his own podcast, The

2:03

Influence Continuum.

2:08

Hello, doctor Hassen. I there's

2:11

a wealth of information in

2:13

your podcasts, in your ted talk,

2:16

so I'm going to try to hit your greatest hits.

2:19

Thank you. So, doctor Hassen,

2:21

it is not every day that

2:24

somebody wants to study brainwashing,

2:27

my manipulation cults. And

2:30

there's a reason that you sort of started

2:32

delving into this world. So you have to tell

2:35

that story because you've walked

2:37

a few miles in the shoes of

2:39

the cult, so tell my listeners about that.

2:42

Sure, So go

2:45

back to February of nineteen

2:47

seventy four. I

2:49

was nineteen. I was an upper junior

2:52

at Queen's College, studying creative

2:54

writing poetry in particular,

2:57

and my girlfriend dumped me abruptly,

3:00

and I was kind of blue, and

3:02

the new semester was starting, and

3:05

three women came up to me while

3:07

I was sitting in the cafeteria and flirted

3:09

with me and asked if they could

3:12

join me at my table. And

3:15

I was a nineteen year old, healthy

3:18

male who thought he got lucky

3:20

that day. And they

3:22

said they were students. They said they weren't

3:25

part of a religious group, but it turned out

3:27

they were recruiters for the Moon

3:29

Organization, Korean

3:33

messiah who wants to

3:35

take over the world and thinks that democracy

3:38

is satanic. But I didn't know any of

3:40

this. And I grew up in a middle

3:42

class Jewish family. My dad had

3:44

a hardware store, my mom was an art

3:46

teacher. In eighth grade, two older

3:48

sisters extra honor

3:50

student, and I

3:52

was not a joiner, but I was

3:55

bright, and I want to improve

3:58

myself and didn't want to

4:00

be closed minded, and so

4:02

they were flirting. They said, we lived

4:04

together with people from all over the world. You

4:06

have to come and meet our friends. And

4:10

two and a half years later I was

4:12

waking up on the Baltimore Beltway

4:14

driving into the back of a tractor trailer

4:17

truck at eighty miles an hour due to

4:19

sleep deprivation. And

4:21

in between that, I was made

4:23

a leader in the Moon cult and was recruiting

4:26

and doing crazy things like

4:28

fasting for Richard Nixon during Watergate

4:31

because God said he should

4:33

be president. And I had hated Nixon

4:36

before I've met the cult

4:38

and been indoctrinated in mind

4:40

control. Anyway, what happened

4:43

in nineteen seventy six was

4:45

this near fatal van crash in

4:47

the hospital away from the group,

4:50

sleeping a lot, and I

4:52

called my sister, who I was always

4:54

very close with, and she persuaded

4:56

me to visit her and my nephew

4:59

and she said on him to know his uncle Stevie

5:02

come home. So I said, if

5:04

you don't tell the parents, and you don't tell

5:06

Steph, my oldest sister, who

5:09

had all said I was in a cult

5:11

and I was brainwashed, and I knew that

5:13

was evil and satanic. I

5:17

did go, and she did tell,

5:20

and they had hired some ex moonies,

5:22

one of whom was a woman I had recruited

5:25

myself into the cult and I was very

5:27

fond of and I was

5:30

program to kill rather

5:34

than betray the Messiah.

5:36

And I actually almost snapped my father's

5:39

neck while he was driving in the Long

5:41

Island Expressway, but

5:43

I didn't kill him, thank goodness. We

5:46

get to the point of the dprogramming

5:49

place and a big burly guy is

5:51

going to come and help me go in

5:53

there with my big long cast and

5:56

I basically said to my father, who

5:59

knew I was very very strong. I'm six

6:01

feet tall. I said, if

6:03

you try to make me go in there, I will

6:05

be very violent and I will

6:07

kill everybody or they will kill me,

6:09

and my blood will be on your conscience

6:12

forever. And my father cried

6:14

and say, what would you

6:17

do if it was your son, your

6:19

only son? How would you feel?

6:22

And it was the tears that got

6:24

to the real me, and I

6:26

switched into what I

6:28

imagined was his perspective, thinking

6:31

how crazy it must have looked to him

6:33

that I had dropped out

6:35

of college, quit my job, donated my

6:37

bank account, and was fasting for Nixon.

6:40

So anyway, I said, what do you want

6:42

me to do? He said, just listen with

6:45

an open mind. If you want to go back,

6:47

at least your mother and I will be able to

6:49

sleep at night knowing we did the responsible

6:51

thing. So I wanted to prove

6:54

I wasn't brainwashed or mind control,

6:56

and I wanted to show that I

6:58

had free will by the end,

7:01

because they were showing me things like Chinese

7:04

communist brainwashing studies

7:06

of Robert Lifton, and

7:10

basically my mind opened where

7:12

I realized Moon was a liar. I

7:15

had heard him personally tell us to

7:17

lie so many times,

7:19

and how could he be a man of God if he's

7:21

a liar if we're teaching that God

7:23

is a god of truth. So the wheels,

7:26

the creaky wheels, started going,

7:29

and then it just felt like a

7:31

house of cards was going plap, plap

7:33

pop, and I and I went.

7:36

I just cried for three hours,

7:38

like what was I been doing for two

7:40

and a half years? And

7:42

at that point I just needed to

7:44

understand what happened to me. I

7:46

bet because I'm you know,

7:49

just a few minutes that I'm looking at you

7:51

and talking to you, You're incredibly

7:54

smart man, and I

7:56

can't imagine you were any less smart

7:58

when you were a eighteen nineteen

8:01

year old man. No, I was reading

8:03

postgraduate level when I was eight

8:05

years old. Right, You're

8:07

not an idiot as a teenager. As my point,

8:10

you seem to have a caring, loving

8:12

family. So definitely,

8:15

what is it that these

8:17

women, Okay, aside from hormones,

8:20

how how did they infiltrate you

8:22

in this way? How could they manipulate

8:24

your mind? I mean to me, it

8:27

reminds me of you know, I

8:29

have friends whose children were addicts,

8:32

and they literally had to have somebody

8:34

come in at three in the morning and take them away

8:37

and kind of break them all down and rebuild

8:39

them again. And it sounds like you kind of have

8:41

to do that when somebody has been seeked

8:43

in a cult. I'm not a fan of

8:46

the three AM boot

8:48

camp interventions. I'm

8:50

sure some have saved people's

8:52

lives, but also a lot

8:54

of them are run by people who

8:56

are not mental health professionals. Well,

8:59

yes, I agree with you. The bottom line is

9:01

that I that people are

9:04

situationally vulnerable. Breakup

9:07

of a relationship, death of a loved

9:09

one, illness movie. So your

9:11

breakup is your vulnerability.

9:14

The girlfriend that broke up with it was

9:16

the biggest vulnerability, if I

9:18

can be honest, allay was that I thought

9:20

I was too smart and only dumb

9:23

people get into cults. I

9:25

thought I was too smart. I had bicycle

9:28

cross country when I was sixteen. My

9:31

father taught me in the hardware store.

9:33

When he brought me in to train

9:35

me, he said, you can

9:38

tell if someone's lying by their eyes.

9:40

Steve and I looked at their eyes

9:42

and they were completely convincing

9:44

that they were sincere. They were students,

9:47

they weren't part of a religious group. And

9:49

I later became a top recruiter

9:52

doing the same techniques to get people

9:54

in believing that the world was

9:56

satanic and I needed

9:59

to save their souls and all

10:01

their ancestors. Let me ask

10:03

you this very quickly. Sure, so let's

10:05

define cult. Okay, So

10:08

what I'm my work is around authoritarian

10:11

cults and a way

10:13

of thinking about it as a pyramid

10:16

structured organization with someone

10:18

or some group or some ideology

10:21

that's controlling and

10:23

the deceptive recruitment and

10:25

the behavior, information, thought,

10:27

and emotional control to make

10:30

a new identity where their dependent

10:32

and obedient on the group and

10:34

some people say you need a living

10:37

guru or leader to have a cult,

10:39

and that's not my knowledge

10:41

or research, because you can have ideological

10:44

cults right right.

10:47

So, for example, the

10:49

right wing sovereign citizens,

10:52

the racist, the neo Nazis,

10:54

they were doing leaderless resistance

10:57

was the term. In other words, they put an

11:00

isis was doing this. Um.

11:02

They put out the ideology, they they

11:04

they they give videos and for

11:07

people to indoctrinate, but they leave

11:09

it up to people to decide how they're going

11:11

to act out right. Um. And

11:14

I went on to develop my

11:16

own model based on an

11:18

influence continuum from

11:20

ethical to unethical and

11:23

what I call the BITE model of authoritaring

11:26

control. Yeah, behavior,

11:29

behavior control, information

11:31

controls, and emotions emotional.

11:33

Yeah. So if you can control those

11:35

four variables including where

11:37

the persons sleeping and eating,

11:40

and their clothing and their language,

11:42

and give them rigid rules and regulations

11:45

and put them through a process

11:47

where they're confused, disoriented,

11:50

and hypnosis is a major factor,

11:53

but not the the watch

11:56

kind of hypnosis. It's a

11:58

much more DVOS this kind

12:00

of process level of hypnosis.

12:02

It's something that I've spent a lot of times

12:05

learning about because it helps me

12:07

and my work to coach families how to

12:09

help love ones and to help people recover

12:12

from these types of cases. And

12:15

it's been a journey. I was persuaded

12:17

to get my doctorate a few years ago

12:20

because I got involved with a forensic

12:22

think tank at Harvard Medical School,

12:25

because I realized the law is about a

12:27

hundred years out of date with understanding

12:30

neuroscience and social psychology.

12:34

And if you're young, you

12:36

can be unduly influenced automatically

12:38

by your age. If you're older

12:41

and have dementia, that but

12:43

the middle ground is called

12:45

a slippery slope, and for

12:47

me, it's not a slippery slope if

12:49

you have these four components

12:52

in the context of a lack of informed

12:54

consent and installing

12:57

phobias, for example, to make people

13:00

rationally afraid to question

13:02

the leader or the group, or irrationally

13:04

afraid to exit the group because

13:07

terrible things will happen

13:09

to you. I was literally taken

13:12

to the Exorcist movie alley in

13:14

nineteen seventy four and Moon said,

13:16

personally, God made the

13:18

Exorcist movie, this is what will happen

13:21

if anyone leaves the Unification Church.

13:23

And at that point I had no

13:25

critical thing you'll start throwing up and

13:27

spinning around. Wow, it was scary, yes,

13:30

of course, And so obviously

13:33

I think about Patty Hurst. She

13:35

was made into Tania and she robbed

13:38

banks and yeah, and a

13:40

lot of people didn't believe she was brainwashed.

13:42

They thought she was a wealthy little kid acting

13:45

out. And in my opinion, she was

13:47

absolutely a victim

13:49

of brainwashing. She was put in a closet,

13:52

she was sexually abused. So

13:54

for me, it was just bad legal

13:57

defense and lack of the

14:00

public's awareness and understanding

14:03

that it doesn't just happen to stupid

14:05

people, weak people, people from bad

14:08

families, etc. Right, the

14:10

right conditions, almost

14:12

everybody can be hurt this way,

14:15

and so and can you create those

14:17

conditions, Meaning with Patty Hurst, they

14:19

locked her in a closet, they sexually abused her.

14:21

I'm sure they starved her. I mean, so you

14:23

can also as a

14:26

cult leader, you can create

14:28

all those conditions with which

14:30

to get people embedded

14:32

in your sort of philosophies and

14:34

your agenda. Basically, Yeah,

14:37

so traffickers and pimps

14:40

do this, And trafficking

14:43

is illegal in the US and most

14:45

civilized countries of the world. It's

14:48

defined as fraud, force, or

14:50

coercion, and most

14:53

every mind control cult has

14:55

the fraud, the lack of informed consent,

14:58

and the coercion, which is granularly

15:01

explained by the control

15:03

of behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions.

15:06

And in fact, labor trafficking

15:09

experts are using my model, and sex

15:11

trafficking experts who are

15:13

helping people get out of that

15:15

type of mind control are using it

15:17

because it makes sense. So with

15:19

the sex trafficking and labor trafficking,

15:22

it's very fear based, right, It's

15:24

much more about if you try

15:27

to leave, you will be killed or will

15:29

kill your family or right,

15:32

yes, so that's where the force comes

15:35

in. If somebody holds a knife

15:37

up, like Larry Ray of the Sarah

15:40

Lawrence cult, he was just convicted

15:42

of trafficking, if he holds

15:44

a big knife up and starts to

15:47

coerce you to make a false confession,

15:50

you repeated enough times, you

15:53

start believing it, because that's the way

15:55

the mind works and memory works,

15:57

is you can reprogram people's

15:59

memories and people

16:01

can have false memories of experiences

16:03

that never happened. And so Charles

16:06

Manson was kind of the genius of this too.

16:08

Correct. Well, we

16:10

don't want to give him that much credit. I don't think genius

16:12

is a right word. I don't think it was a genius, but

16:15

he was. He

16:17

was definitely involved

16:19

with scientology and he

16:21

also used psychedelics. So psychedelics

16:24

is another method that can

16:26

be used to subvert people's critical

16:29

thinking and reality

16:32

testing. If you're tripping on acid

16:34

and somebody is telling you we

16:36

were married in the past life, don't

16:39

you remember, you know, we

16:41

were walking down the river of the

16:43

Nile and we were

16:46

fishing. Don't you remember, and you're

16:48

tripping, you know, it's going to go

16:50

in your head somewhere. Yeah,

16:54

there's a lot more to come after the short break

17:05

and we're back. It's

17:08

interesting you think you equate sex

17:11

trafficking with a cult, because most

17:13

people think sex trafficking is they

17:16

go after vulnerable children or women, They

17:18

kidnap them, and then they use

17:22

threats and fear to keep them there,

17:24

same with pimps. But

17:27

you're saying that it's it's more than that, No,

17:30

it's it really is a systematic

17:33

social influence process

17:36

where people's behavior, information,

17:39

thoughts, and emotions are manipulated

17:41

to create a new identity that's

17:44

the pendant and obedient on the pimp

17:46

or the trafficker. So they

17:48

frequently will change the name, change

17:51

the clothing, change the language

17:53

system, and people have

17:55

an alternate life and belief

17:58

about themselves. And so

18:02

I do want to clarify something. So

18:04

I have something called the influence continuum

18:07

ethical to unethical, and

18:10

this is all on my Freedom of mind dot com

18:12

website under learn about undue influence.

18:15

So I say there are cults along

18:17

the entire continuum, but

18:20

the difference between healthy cults

18:22

as you choose. You can

18:24

think you have your own critical faculties.

18:27

You can leave without threats or fear

18:29

or harassment. You

18:31

can be fanatically into something,

18:33

but it's your own choice versus

18:36

having a new identity. I mean, one could

18:38

say that there are abusive

18:41

and horrific relationships that

18:43

are that model this cult

18:45

thing. I mean, I have some friends

18:48

whose son has

18:50

gotten involved with a woman and

18:52

he doesn't speak to his parents and he's

18:55

moved far away, and I keep

18:57

saying to them, God, it's like he's in a cult,

19:00

But no one looks at it that way because

19:02

it's a relationship one cult to one. No, you're

19:04

right, yeah, you're one hundred percent

19:06

correct. And men

19:09

controlling women and in fact, in

19:11

the UK they have a new

19:13

law called course of control

19:15

where a man is controlling a woman

19:17

and isolating her from her family and

19:20

controlling her finances. It's

19:22

not yet recognizing women controlling

19:24

men. But in the United States

19:27

I do a lot of cases one

19:29

on one controlling

19:31

and they're typically malignant narcissists,

19:34

by the way, so it's another

19:36

way of saying it is a narcissist who's

19:38

a psychopath who

19:40

are isolating a person and

19:42

taking their money and wanting

19:45

to exert power over them and sex.

19:49

So we can talk about political cults,

19:51

therapy cults, multi level marketing

19:54

cults, psychotherapeutic

19:57

cults, boot camp cults, which

19:59

you mentioned something

20:01

about friends who brought their

20:03

kids who are addicts to a closed

20:06

environment to break them down and

20:08

create a new identity presumably,

20:10

but a lot of those groups make

20:13

the person dependent on the cult well,

20:15

especially because they get kickbacks, and

20:18

that whole system in Utah so

20:21

corrupt, but yes, exactly,

20:23

Utah is one of the worst states for these

20:26

systems, and Paris Hilton is

20:28

probably the most famous person who survived

20:31

that. And so when you talk about

20:33

like communist China, brainwashing

20:35

and some of these techniques whether they're

20:38

used on an educated

20:40

adult. When it comes to

20:42

let's say, sex trafficking, isn't

20:45

it all fear based? Well, people

20:48

don't understand. Most

20:50

young people, mostly

20:53

women or girls rather or

20:55

boys, are recruited around

20:57

twelve to fourteen years of age, and

21:01

so it starts with what's called grooming,

21:03

and the right wing is now using that

21:06

term and flipping it on its

21:08

head. But the real grooming

21:10

of perverts and pedophiles and traffickers

21:14

is giving food,

21:17

buying a gift, walking

21:20

with them, paying attention to them,

21:22

maybe playing video games with them

21:24

online where the person thinks they're

21:26

their own age. And

21:28

by the way, neuroscience has now

21:31

told us that when someone

21:33

is playing a video game online, the

21:35

brain starts acting like it's a friend,

21:39

even though you have no idea who's on the other

21:41

side, and it could be a

21:44

Chinese agent or a Russian agent,

21:46

or the porn industry. It's

21:48

exactly. It's typically a love

21:51

thing where the young people

21:53

think that that's a boyfriend, and

21:56

they step by step get

21:58

them involved with sex and do a

22:00

favor for me. My best friend is

22:02

coming over. He's really lonely, he

22:04

needs attention. Give him a back rub,

22:07

you know now pull down his shirt

22:09

and rub his back that way. And it's just

22:12

step by step. And and

22:15

it's unfortunate that

22:17

everybody who walks

22:20

around thinking it's only someone

22:22

else's kid, it's

22:24

only weak people or stupid people.

22:27

They're the most vulnerable. Really,

22:29

it's way better to be humble and

22:32

go. It could happen to me. And

22:35

that's why you always want to stay in touch

22:37

with your intuition, your gut,

22:40

and you want to always have

22:42

a red flag go off in your mind.

22:44

If someone is saying don't tell your parents

22:46

or don't don't share this with your

22:49

husband or your wife. That should be like

22:51

an immediate information control,

22:53

right, danger, danger, you

22:55

know what I've The bottom

22:58

line is there's some people who

23:00

are exceptionally vulnerable. And it

23:02

turns out that people on

23:04

the spectrum, very smart,

23:06

high functioning folks on the spectrum,

23:09

are exceptionally vulnerable

23:12

to recruitment by mind control cults.

23:14

Why because they're love

23:17

bombed. They have an instant

23:20

community where they have meaning

23:22

and everyone's saying, oh,

23:24

oh, Allie, you're so special, you're

23:27

so smart, we're so glad to have you. So

23:29

I did a chapter for an Oxford University

23:32

Press textbook on loan actor terrorism,

23:35

and mine was the only chapter on

23:37

online indoctrination. And

23:39

I used the case example of

23:42

someone on the spectrum who was moved

23:45

to violence because they

23:47

were manipulated to feel

23:49

like they have to act out either against

23:52

women because women are evil, because they

23:54

could never get a girlfriend, or

23:57

they want to tear down America because

24:00

America is evil, so they want

24:02

to create anarchy. So

24:05

the thing that I want so desperately,

24:08

and why I'm so grateful that you asked

24:10

me to be on your show, is I want people

24:12

to step back and understand

24:15

we're living in the age of influence,

24:18

and in particular digital

24:20

influence. Yes, yes, I want to talk

24:22

to you about all of that because it's very scary

24:25

and COVID has sped everything

24:27

up and people are believing stupid,

24:29

crazy conspiracy theories because

24:32

they've been programmed. Let's just throw qan

24:34

on out there, let's take them. That is,

24:37

to me an authoritarian

24:39

cult in itself exactly. I did

24:41

a bite model analysis actually

24:43

of QAnon on my website.

24:46

I was invited by Dave Troy,

24:49

who does ted X mid Atlantic,

24:51

to do a program called Dismantling

24:54

QAnon, and it was there

24:56

that I learned for the first time that QAnon

24:59

was based on alternate reality

25:01

gaming technology, and

25:04

I was I'm old, right, So

25:06

I did pack Man oh too? Yeah,

25:08

yeah, I never did. I never did,

25:10

you know, video games like

25:12

so many people do. But

25:15

this is based on the idea that

25:17

you can go on treasure hunts and figure

25:19

things out and clues with these

25:21

bread drops and this and that, and

25:24

it engages people. And the

25:26

other side of this that I want to state

25:28

for your listeners is this

25:30

is a PSI up. This is a psychological

25:33

warfare operation. And

25:36

we know for a fact Michael

25:38

Flynn, General Flynn did

25:40

this for our country against

25:43

people in other countries for

25:45

a long time. And

25:48

he's already proclaimed the digital

25:50

Soldier oath and he's

25:52

definitely not a person

25:55

who loves the rule of law. Okay,

25:58

And now I have to throw Trump out too,

26:01

because he's clearly was given

26:03

a few handbooks and models

26:05

for this. So

26:08

I wrote the book called The Cult

26:10

of Trump Simon and Schuster,

26:12

and my

26:15

thesis essentially is that they're

26:17

authoritarian cults whose

26:19

leaders were directing people

26:21

to believe in Trump. And

26:24

so chapter seven is all about the puppeteers

26:27

as I research them, including

26:29

Putin. I put him first in

26:31

the list. The Family,

26:34

which is a cult that used

26:36

to do the National Prayer breakfasts

26:38

and everything, and Michael Pence is

26:41

in that group. So that's another

26:43

cult. Jeffrey Charlotte has written two good

26:45

books and there's a Netflix series about

26:47

the Family, and that cult recruits

26:50

Democrats and Republicans. By

26:52

the way. Then we have Opus

26:54

Day, which is a right wing cult

26:57

in my professional opinion of the Catholic

26:59

Church that thinks the Pope is

27:01

Satanic and they want

27:04

to break down the separation of church

27:06

and state. The biggest threat,

27:09

and the media has missed this in my

27:11

opinion, is what's called new

27:14

Apostolic Reformation churches

27:18

and what these are. The media

27:20

said, these are white Christian evangelicals.

27:22

Well, I know white

27:25

Christian evangelicals, and they're like,

27:27

this is not Jesus's teachings,

27:29

this is not biblical. The leaders

27:32

of these groups, they say, I'm an

27:34

apostle or I'm a prophet of

27:36

God. I talk directly to God and

27:38

get direct revelations, and

27:40

I speak in tongues and cast out

27:42

demons like the Exorcists, and

27:44

I can do faith feelings. And their followers

27:47

are called spiritual warriors

27:50

because they're gonna get rid of

27:52

all the satanic libtards

27:55

me and people in the Cult

27:57

of Sorrows presumably me,

28:00

right, But there's forty million

28:03

in the United States in this

28:05

body of different cults, and

28:08

an estimated six hundred and fifty

28:10

million worldwide, and

28:13

people are reporting, oh their

28:15

popularist movements around

28:18

the world. These

28:20

are psyops by

28:22

authoritarian governments or

28:25

people who are promoting fossil fuels

28:28

to divert people from

28:30

global climate crisis legislation

28:33

and action, and to keep the

28:35

prices of oil high. So

28:39

we're in we're in a World War three

28:42

type information

28:44

warfare. Of course, there's kinetic warfare

28:46

in Ukraine right now, as everybody

28:49

knows so well. But we have to

28:52

wake up and realize if

28:55

we love our country, if

28:57

we want rule of law, if we want human

29:00

rights, women's rights, gay rights,

29:02

indigenous rights, we

29:04

have to take action and not just be reactive,

29:07

but we have to proactively think

29:10

about how to reclaim and

29:12

how to reinstitute laws

29:14

that have been systematically broken

29:17

down over the last forty years. Do

29:19

you connect any dots with school

29:21

shootings and cults? Absolutely

29:24

so. There's

29:29

something called social learning theory

29:31

and people who study terrorism, it's

29:34

a version of contagion effect

29:37

or copycat things,

29:39

and they would literally, I

29:42

believe bad actors recruiting

29:44

young vulnerable men to

29:47

think that they will be immortal

29:49

if they go into a mosque

29:51

and kill a lot of people in live stream

29:54

it or any number of

29:56

variables of that. And I

29:58

actually put the NR in

30:00

the Cult of Trump because when

30:03

I was researching it, there were five million

30:05

people. And this is a

30:07

group that is by the

30:09

way, you remember, is

30:12

it Marina Boutina? Remember

30:14

the Russian agent who's now in the

30:16

parliament in Russia. She infiltrated

30:19

the NRA. She was at the national

30:21

prayer breakfast of a family

30:23

cult. Putin doesn't allow

30:26

citizens to have assault rifles

30:28

in Russia, but he wants us

30:30

to have twenty million AR

30:32

fifteens. Why he wants

30:35

us to kill each other. And my

30:37

former cult has a gun factory

30:39

making AR fifteens. The Moonees

30:42

and another son of

30:44

Sun Young Moon has a crown

30:46

of golden bullets, calls himself

30:49

the king and his cult is called

30:51

the Rod of Iron Ministry, saying

30:53

that the revelations

30:56

in the Bible, it says that we

30:58

should have ar fifteen. So

31:00

he has two compounds, one in

31:03

Texas and one in Tennessee,

31:05

hiring vets to train people how

31:07

to use these weapons. And this

31:10

is happening right now in our country.

31:13

And I have to believe that law

31:15

enforcement, now that Biden

31:18

has come in, is trying

31:20

to clean up the mess. Yeah,

31:23

that's been made in the Cult of

31:25

Trump era. Well, and there's also sort

31:27

of small things we can do. Certainly the

31:30

media cannot, and

31:32

they've started to stop showing faces

31:34

of shooters and

31:38

not giving out their name and not using

31:41

any platforms so that they do feel

31:43

immortalized or sainted and

31:45

focus on the victims, and focus

31:48

on the victims exactly. Yeah,

31:53

and it's time for a short break. Welcome

32:03

back to go ask Galley.

32:07

Technology. I mean that is sort

32:09

of the greatest enemy to trying

32:11

to stop all this because you

32:13

know, I always say on my podcast, it's it's

32:15

just the wild West. I mean, you can recruit

32:18

extremists, you can create cults

32:20

online without leaving your living room

32:22

now exactly. And to me, I

32:25

mean that seems like an incredibly difficult

32:27

thing to fight to battle,

32:30

you know, because the laws for you

32:32

know, all these techno highways

32:34

have not even been implemented. So how

32:37

can somebody like me take action? What

32:39

should we do? The problem

32:41

was the the infiltration

32:44

through the Federalist Society of our

32:46

Supreme Court and courts

32:48

around the land. But we

32:50

need digital protection legislation

32:54

because there's five estimated

32:56

five thousand data points on every

32:58

voting American that's been

33:00

collected, every website you've gone

33:02

to, everylike, every dislike what

33:05

food you like to eat. There are AI

33:08

algorithms to understand

33:10

which buttons to push for which people

33:13

in order to manipulate them. And

33:15

then the other part of it. I've been

33:17

interviewed by Tristan Harris and the Center

33:20

for Humane Technology, the person

33:22

who is very involved with the

33:24

Social Dilemma documentary, which

33:26

is a must see in my opinion

33:28

for everyone. So

33:30

we need to understand

33:33

that billionaires who have platforms

33:36

and their goal is money and selling

33:38

ad by capturing people's attention.

33:41

The rule of thumb is if it's free,

33:44

then you're the product, right

33:46

right, So you have to understand

33:50

that there are great

33:52

benefits from virtual technology.

33:55

You can surgeons can do surgery

33:58

remotely who are highly skilled

34:00

and save somebody's life. However,

34:03

bad actors who want to subvert

34:05

America's power and prestige

34:08

and subvert democracy. Are

34:11

for example, the second biggest owner

34:14

of Twitter of the Saudis

34:17

or at least the Middle Eastern oil barrens

34:20

if Elon musk Is so into electric

34:22

cars, an electric solar Why

34:24

would oil barons want

34:27

to be on this platform.

34:29

By the way, QAnon's back, Neo

34:32

Nazis are back on Twitter. It's

34:34

really terrible. Yeah, but there

34:37

is hope. But we need to pass legislation.

34:41

And I've been saying we should have

34:43

open hearings on QAnon

34:46

sy ops, information warfare,

34:48

propaganda, brainwashing by

34:50

top experts, educate

34:53

American citizens and the world

34:56

for what we know is being

34:58

done right now. But there

35:00

are all these politicians

35:02

who've been given donations and

35:05

have other kinds of corruption, maybe

35:07

from Russia infiltration, and

35:10

they're gonna undermine

35:12

that effort. So right

35:14

now, it just feels like citizens like

35:16

you, Ali and me and others

35:18

who genuinely care, we

35:21

need to think outside the box for

35:23

how how to get this done.

35:26

So, doctor Hasson, does it really

35:28

all come down to money? Is it just greed?

35:32

So in my work when

35:34

people ask me what's in it for cult

35:37

leaders or what's it all about. It

35:39

seems to me power is number

35:41

one. Money is number two,

35:43

which gives you more power, and sex

35:46

is number three, which can also

35:48

be used. Because you yes, because

35:51

you hear about authoritarian

35:53

cults. You hear, I mean these

35:55

are the ones that are sort of on Hulu

35:58

and Netflix, the political halts,

36:00

and then cults that are sort of

36:03

built from the base up by people that

36:05

that it's just greed, they just want money. Um,

36:08

you know, I would say that there are cults of

36:10

people who you know, rip off grandmothers

36:13

because they have dementias. Right, So there's a difference

36:16

between con artists and cult leaders.

36:18

The con artists just want the quick

36:21

in and out, get the money and move on to

36:23

the next victim. It's the people

36:25

who want to literally create slaves,

36:28

right, people who want the long

36:31

controlled expansion

36:33

of power. But I put them in with the sex

36:35

cults, the slave cults, so I put

36:38

I put them in the same category.

36:40

And that's all power. Yeah, I'm with

36:42

you. I mean, the sex to me is power.

36:44

I find those to be the

36:47

same. Not love. No, it's not love.

36:49

And I'm a love guy, I say too.

36:51

And I've been saying this for years. If

36:53

you have a friend or a family member

36:55

who's gone down the Magar road,

36:58

you know, the qan On road. The

37:00

worst thing to do is cuttle off from

37:02

them, or call them names or say

37:05

their brainwash, just like my family did

37:07

to me in seventy four. It just

37:09

makes the person dig in more and

37:11

feel persecuted. The best

37:14

technique is a warm technique,

37:18

inviting people to remember that

37:20

you were brothers and sisters or

37:22

aunts and uncles or best friends,

37:25

and saying, listen, you're intelligent,

37:28

I respect you. You seem very

37:30

fervent. I want to

37:32

understand how you've come

37:34

to believe this. Please, let's

37:37

spend the time. Go back

37:39

in time and tell me your first memory

37:41

of QAnon, for example, and

37:44

what did you think? And they almost always

37:47

ali say I thought it was crazy or

37:49

I thought it was stupid, and

37:51

then they say, oh, that's very interesting. So

37:53

tell me what was it if you can think

37:55

back, what was it that made you start taking

37:58

it seriously and made as

38:00

one of these propaganda documentaries,

38:03

or maybe one of the girlfriend

38:05

that they're with, the boyfriend that they're with who

38:08

they fall in love with, is into it.

38:10

But the point is is educating them,

38:13

not saying you're an occult, but

38:15

educating them about other groups

38:18

that use mind control, Chinese

38:20

communist brainwashing techniques,

38:22

which is what was helpful to me to get

38:25

out of the Moone fascist cult or

38:27

traffickers, sex traffickers in

38:29

particular of children. They're

38:31

very interested to learn about that. Yeah,

38:35

So here's my big question to you. How

38:38

do you sleep at night? Truly?

38:40

Like how do you digest all

38:42

the stuff all day long? And

38:45

how do you sleep? And do you take

38:47

anything to make yourself go to sleep?

38:50

Because I would be so anxious and

38:52

so scared all the time. It's

38:56

really a burden. My wife of

38:58

twenty almost twenty five years

39:00

has really been incredible

39:03

support and she helped me in

39:05

researching and writing of the Cult of Trump.

39:07

She's a professional writer. But the

39:09

truth is I often don't sleep at

39:11

night, and I don't

39:13

like sleeping pills. My go to

39:17

self hypnosis and

39:20

I've been to clinical interesting

39:23

mental health professionals trained and hypnosis

39:26

and it helps me get

39:28

my agitation my cortsol levels

39:31

down. And by the way, I

39:33

did have cancer, and my heart

39:35

goes out to Jamie Raskin. I had them

39:37

FOMA two because I was working too

39:40

hard and traveling and not sleeping

39:42

enough. My heart goes out to Jamie.

39:45

I hope he has a fast recovery.

39:47

But the bottom line is I

39:50

really am trying to train more

39:52

people to understand how to help

39:54

these victims. That's why I created an

39:56

online course plug Plug

39:59

No good for mental health professionals,

40:01

but for anyone who wants a deeper dive

40:04

to understand how do you help people heal

40:07

from their identity being

40:09

given an associative disorder? Are

40:11

you worried about the future. I

40:14

mean for somebody that is so immersed in this,

40:16

but I mean really worried.

40:19

I was worried about the mid terms,

40:21

whether I would have to move to another country,

40:24

honestly, but I was so relieved

40:27

when we saved

40:29

the Senate that the bottom line

40:31

is I'm an optimist because

40:33

there's no option but to believe,

40:36

have hope, inspire other people,

40:38

and to educate people how

40:41

to protect their own minds,

40:43

their friends and families minds,

40:45

but also to stand up

40:48

against these authoritarians

40:51

and say no, we want

40:53

human rights, we want rule of

40:55

law. Yeah. Oh,

40:58

thank you so much for doing this podcast. I

41:00

said, there's so much, and we have in our show

41:02

notes all your books, and your podcast.

41:04

So I do direct all

41:07

my listeners to everything because

41:09

it's so important and it's so

41:11

informative, and at

41:14

a certain point we a lot of us have

41:16

to do some of the work that you're doing now as

41:18

well, because there are people in our

41:20

friend world and our family that need

41:23

this. So thank you, thank you, thank

41:25

you. So

41:30

can I ask you a question? Yes,

41:32

I was just going to get to that. What's your

41:34

favorite cupcake? Oh?

41:37

What is my favorite cupcake? It's chocolate

41:39

with vanilla frosting. I'm a traditionalist.

41:42

I can do that or I can do vanilla with chocolate

41:45

frosting. But it has to be one or the other. I'm

41:47

not a red velvet fan. Huh. Okay,

41:50

And you like milk with it or of

41:52

course milk, yes, and milk

41:54

with my cookies, and yes, I'm

41:57

all about dairy. You dunk your cookies

41:59

and do not do that. I do it

42:01

more of the way people who drink

42:04

do a shot and then they have a chaser.

42:06

It's more like that. I don't like to mix. So okay,

42:09

okay, there you go. That's great. Thank

42:12

you your pleasure,

42:18

Thank you for listening to go Ask Alli if

42:21

you'd like to learn more about cults and undo

42:23

influence. Check out our show notes and visit

42:25

Freedom of Mind dot com to access tons

42:27

of resources, services, and doctor

42:30

Hasson's podcast, The Influence Continuum.

42:33

Be sure to subscribe, rate and review Go Ask

42:35

Alli and follow me on social media on Instagram

42:38

at the Real Ali Wentworth Now.

42:40

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42:42

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42:44

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42:46

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42:48

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42:51

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42:53

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42:57

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