0:01

Welcome to go Ask Ali, a production

0:03

of Shonda Land Audio and partnership with I

0:05

Heart Radio. Rolling

0:08

on the full. Loafing is a thing I can I've seen

0:10

you know, We've all seen people do it. I've done it kidding.

0:13

For me now, the work is to

0:15

want what I have, even kind

0:18

of shinny stuff. You know, that's my work. It's

0:20

it's imperfect. So let me ask you a question about

0:22

actors because you are Yeah,

0:25

me too. We are old funny duddies.

0:27

We go to sleep at ten, we wake up at six,

0:30

but we go to bed at eight, So there are

0:32

more funny duddies than you. You are the

0:34

funny duddiest. Yes,

0:41

welcome to go ask Allie. I'm Alli Wentworth.

0:44

I don't know about you, but I

0:46

feel like we're all immersed in

0:48

a very fear based culture. I'm

0:51

scared of everything from global

0:53

warming to nuclear war to

0:56

the things I'm streaming on television

0:59

which all see to be true crime. I

1:02

think people read little things

1:04

in magazines and then you somehow

1:07

put them in a scenario within your own life

1:09

and just scare the ship out of yourself.

1:12

So what is our relationship with fear?

1:15

What does it mean? How do we reduce

1:17

it, how do we understand it? How

1:20

do we intuite it? Well?

1:22

My guest today is

1:24

the genius of all these things.

1:27

Gavin de Becker is a leading expert

1:29

on the prediction and management of violence.

1:32

Gavin's work has earned him three presidential

1:34

appointments and a position on a Congressional committee.

1:37

He was twice appointed to the President's Advisory

1:39

Board at the U S Department of Justice. He's

1:42

also a senior fellow at u c l A

1:44

School of Public Policy and Social Research.

1:47

Gavin is a New York Times bestselling author

1:49

of The Gift of Fear, which I encourage

1:52

everybody to read. His books about

1:54

violence and safety are now published in eighteen

1:57

languages and have been profiled in

1:59

Time and Is Week, featured on Oprah Winfrey

2:02

Sixty Minutes, and many many others. Please

2:06

note that this episode contained some conversations

2:08

about violence that some people may find disturbing.

2:11

If you prefer to avoid this content, the

2:13

topics and time codes are in the show notes.

2:17

Gavin de Beecker, I

2:19

have never been so scared in my life.

2:22

And this is complete truth

2:24

and honesty. And I think I can speak

2:26

for my husband, George and most

2:29

of my friends, Because, as

2:31

you've talked about in your book and in

2:34

lectures and stuff, you know, this

2:36

isn't a These aren't l

2:38

A freeway shootings. It's not some

2:40

serial killer. I

2:43

feel like the whole world is on fire,

2:45

and I'm afraid of of

2:47

our politicians being killed, of

2:49

nuclear war, of global warming,

2:52

of domestic and international

2:54

terrorism. And you must

2:56

hear this a lot. But how do I

2:59

call my nerves? How do I

3:02

live my life without constantly

3:05

not being able to sleep because of anxiety

3:07

and being in perpetual fear of

3:10

so many things? I

3:12

love the question because I can fix that in just

3:14

a few seconds. Excellent with

3:17

a pill. Now

3:19

it actually takes a lot of pills, I'm

3:22

sure. So you know,

3:24

there is a thing that that governments

3:26

tend to spray at people,

3:29

which are worst case scenarios.

3:32

Worst case scenarios. And the worst

3:34

case scenario is not a prediction.

3:36

It's not a uh

3:39

an organized thought process. It

3:41

is a creative process where people

3:44

think, as they have to in government, what would

3:46

be the worst thing that could happen with a

3:48

virus, for example, this virus, what's the worst

3:50

thing that could happen? Now, rarely do they say,

3:53

here's the best thing that could happen, right, it could

3:55

peter out, it could the variance could be better

3:57

instead of worse, that kind of thing. So

3:59

we see a lot of worst case scenarios,

4:01

and I think it's valuable for people to know that

4:03

the words scenario, of course,

4:05

comes from scene. It is a creative

4:08

exercise. And when we do

4:10

that in our minds, you could say, for example,

4:12

Captain, what's the worst case scenario on

4:15

the flight fiery crash. That's

4:17

the worst case scenario. Officer, what's

4:19

the worst case scenario? Homicide? Doctor,

4:22

what's the worst case scenario? Sudden death? But

4:25

we don't live our lives that way, asking

4:27

what are the worst case scenarios? Rather we

4:29

ideally live our lives asking what are

4:31

the likely events. So

4:34

at home, on your refrigerator, you

4:36

might have a list of phone numbers. You've got Dr

4:38

Kellerman, you've got the pediatrician, you've got so

4:40

and so, But you don't have the

4:43

Nuclear Emergency Search Team, which

4:45

is the organization that tracks down

4:49

radioactive material that might

4:51

be used by terrorists, for example, and they've got a bunch

4:53

of helicopters, etcetera. But that's not

4:55

on your refrigerator because it's actually

4:58

not likely. And so what

5:00

I encourage people to do is look at

5:02

the likely events in their lives

5:05

as opposed to the worst case scenario events.

5:07

And this is the opposite of what

5:10

government does, and it's the opposite

5:12

of what media does. News media,

5:14

right, news media. It's only news because

5:17

it is something that isn't likely

5:19

in your life. You know what is it that makes

5:21

news? It is the unusual. It

5:24

is specifically that which is not typically

5:26

happening. If we were to be honest

5:28

with the public and to shout

5:31

at them about what's alarming, let's

5:33

say the public health institutions

5:36

of America, CDC, f d A, etcetera.

5:39

What would they shout at us, If they were being

5:41

accurate to reality, they

5:43

would say, Um, accidents

5:45

in the home a major killer. Millions

5:48

of you will suffer these this week, and three

5:50

thousand of you will die. That's exactly

5:52

true, accidents in the home. However,

5:55

because we know that accidents in the home are

5:57

slightly under our control, because

5:59

we know that they are not new, we

6:02

tend to be less afraid of them than

6:05

of any of the things you mentioned. Uh,

6:08

the newest virus you know at the moment, for

6:10

example, while while

6:13

COVID is a current

6:15

variant that is not particularly serious

6:17

for the overwhelming majority of people, people

6:20

your age and even my age, I'm sixty eight.

6:22

Uh. The average age of death from

6:24

the very beginning back in two thousand twenty

6:27

was one. In Canada.

6:29

This will be an interesting fact. In

6:31

Canada, sevent of

6:33

all the people whose deaths were attributed

6:36

to COVID they lived in nursing

6:38

homes. They were nursing

6:40

home residents. So right away you could

6:42

say, if I'm not a nursing home resident, um,

6:45

I have a massively greater chance

6:47

of surviving this virus than if I

6:50

am a nursing home resident. And what kills nursing

6:52

home residents, by the way, everything

6:55

they're they're generally to die. Right

6:57

in Los Angeles County, the

7:00

average term of residency

7:02

in a nursing home is less than

7:04

six months. So when

7:06

you say you've got a lot of deaths and

7:08

you attribute them to COVID, for example, and

7:11

the majority of them are in nursing homes, you basically

7:13

can begin to and this is my answer to

7:15

your question, exclude yourself

7:18

from the likely candidates for

7:21

that outcome. There are

7:23

two forms of fear anxiety

7:26

isn't even on the list. By the way, anxiety is not a

7:28

fear. Anxiety and worry are a different

7:30

thing, different part of the brain, different part of the heart.

7:32

But there are two forms of fear. One that's enormously

7:35

valuable, and that is true fear.

7:38

True fear is a signal in

7:40

the presence of danger. That means

7:43

I see it, I hear it, I feel it, I taste

7:45

it, I perceive it. It's a signal

7:47

in the presence of danger lying right there,

7:49

snake right there. I need to know that information.

7:52

Unwarranted fear is

7:54

not based on your senses. It is always

7:57

based on your imagination or your

7:59

memory. So I share this example

8:01

with you. You're at the airport,

8:04

you're boarding a plane, and you think, don't

8:06

get on that plane. That I don't I don't feel

8:08

good about that flight. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it.

8:10

So you can you can ask yourself what is

8:13

the cause of that fear. Is

8:15

it, uh, something you saw on

8:17

the news about an airplane crash

8:19

in Brazil three months ago, in

8:21

which case it's in your imagination or

8:23

your memory, or is it

8:26

because you just saw the two pilots stumbling

8:28

out of the bar and wobbling their way onto

8:30

the aircraft. That would be in your environment. That

8:32

would be something you sense, and that would

8:35

be true fear. So the difference

8:37

between true fear and unwarranted

8:39

fear is the answer to your question,

8:42

which is could it happened

8:45

that we would have nuclear war? For example?

8:47

Could it happen? Is never the question

8:49

to ask could it happen? We

8:51

always know the answer. I can give you the answer for every

8:54

good question right now. Yes, yes

8:57

you can have heart failure right now, Yes you could

9:00

it, absolutely. But the question we

9:02

all ask in our lives is what's

9:04

most likely? What's most

9:06

likely to happen. I'm gonna give you one last example

9:08

in the longest answer in podcast history,

9:11

I don't think so oh oh, you

9:13

must have had somebody even more longer. I

9:15

think my third question is going to have a longer

9:17

answer, But go ahead. I'm

9:20

gonna get ready, I'll have a I'll have a brief break between

9:22

now and then. Um,

9:24

the in your home, in

9:26

anybody's home, any viewer or listener of

9:28

the podcast. Uh. We know

9:31

that helicopters could land on the roof

9:33

with intruders who could core through the ceiling

9:36

and lower themselves with ropes into

9:38

our apartment or home. That could happen,

9:41

but we've made the decision that a more likely

9:44

area of entry is the front door

9:47

or the front window, so we put locks on

9:49

the front door and the front window. My

9:51

point there is that could is simply

9:53

always the wrong question when it comes

9:56

to safety, because we

9:58

have to be able to to act

10:00

every day and and face

10:03

life, and life itself

10:07

is a sexually transmitted,

10:09

always fatal condition.

10:13

Everybody dies, and the question

10:15

we have to ask ourselves is not

10:18

how shall we die, but how shall we

10:20

live? And that's the choice.

10:22

And so we do have to set aside risks.

10:25

To fly to the moon. As an

10:27

astronaut, I have to set aside the risk of

10:29

getting on top of a giant uh,

10:31

you know, a bag of fuel and lighting

10:33

the match, which is basically what a rocket is.

10:36

To build that bridge, I have to set

10:38

aside the risk of crossing that big

10:40

expanse of water and the bridge that you drive

10:42

over, often yourself. Brooklyn Bridge and

10:44

others. People died building those bridges, all

10:47

of them, and so it they

10:50

had to set aside risks and and take

10:52

risks and and and still act

10:55

you know, as a parent, we have to you

10:58

know, we're walking around almost like our hearts

11:00

are outside our bodies. These these

11:03

children we care about so much, and

11:05

yet we have to say, Okay, you can

11:07

go, you can go on that thing, you're old

11:09

enough to cross that street, you can ride that bicycle.

11:12

We know, of course all variety of injury

11:15

can come to them, as it can come to us, but we

11:17

we act with courage and almost

11:20

done. Courage is not the

11:23

absence of fear. Courage

11:25

is acting in the face of fear. I

11:28

know something, I'm doing a podcast. I

11:31

could make a terrible mistake and be canceled for

11:33

something I say. But I'm acting anyway,

11:35

and I'm not unafraid of

11:37

the mistakes I might make or you might make her who

11:40

knows what may happen. But I'm

11:42

willing to act in the face of those

11:44

fears. That's courage,

11:47

and that I would say that I do that with my children.

11:49

I don't want my daughter to go out at

11:51

ten o'clock at night to a party downtown.

11:54

But if I don't let her go

11:57

and she doesn't go out and experience the world,

11:59

I'll stimately I'm not helping her, even

12:01

though I saw the

12:04

the movie Abducted or whatever

12:06

it was called. I mean, I feel like everything

12:08

on streaming right now starts with a dead

12:11

white girl. So you know, my

12:13

my fears are

12:15

always with my daughters. Oh my god, something's

12:17

going to happen. So but I try to override

12:20

that. Um. I do want to talk about

12:22

the media with you, because you do. You've

12:25

talked a lot in your book, particularly about

12:28

using fear to get people to watch.

12:30

And I feel like it's everywhere everywhere

12:33

I look. When I try to escape and

12:35

watch something on TV, it

12:38

it makes me scared. And I don't know, should

12:40

we turn off the news? Should

12:42

we only watch Seinfeld? Um?

12:45

How do we find a

12:48

constructive balance between

12:51

everything that is we're inundated

12:53

by on a day to day basis with the media.

12:55

All right, So a couple of things. One is that

12:57

I do believe that the news

13:00

media, and particularly television and particularly

13:02

local news, is very bad

13:04

for people when it comes to getting

13:07

information. I encourage people to choose

13:10

their avenue for going and getting the

13:12

information. Meaning the Internet is so remarkable,

13:14

with all its failings. It's so remarkable that I

13:17

could say, oh, I'm a little interested today in

13:19

the homicide rate in Sweden. I

13:21

can go find that information, but if I wait

13:24

for the local news to scream it at me and

13:26

spray it at me, it will be presented

13:28

in the most alarming way possible. Years

13:30

ago, I used to joke that, uh,

13:33

the Channel two News ought to say, welcome to

13:35

the Channel two News. We're surprised you made

13:37

it through another day, and here's what happened

13:39

to those that didn't, and then they would

13:41

give you the death litany all the ways in which

13:44

people died. And so you

13:46

know, years ago there was a big

13:48

earthquake in l A. And after

13:50

the earthquake there was all kinds of news media

13:53

reports, was this the big one? What about

13:55

if the big one comes? And one of my favorites

13:57

was on CBS uh

14:00

k n x T I think was the CBS affiliate in

14:02

Los Angeles, and it said what

14:04

would have happened if the earthquake had also

14:06

caused a tsunami? And they had

14:08

Los Angeles graphics showing

14:11

waves going over forty story

14:13

buildings in downtown l A. And my first thought

14:15

was, if there had been a tsunami, we wouldn't

14:18

have to pick up all this glass that we were sweeping

14:20

around our House. That was the funny part.

14:22

The not funny part was that they did

14:24

a graphic and they showed you what Los Angeles

14:27

would be like if if if, if, if could

14:29

could could could, And so that

14:32

is bad for us. That very element is bad

14:34

for us. And I think one thing that's

14:36

going on now that is new and

14:39

particularly destructive, and

14:41

we see it probably most of all with

14:43

public health issues is that the

14:46

government and the news media are

14:48

aligned. Now, you could

14:50

say how nice, but of course the

14:52

history of the value of the news media

14:55

was to ask tough questions of an

14:58

Anthony Fauci or a doctor

15:00

more La, the CEO of Viser.

15:02

Whenever prior to this time

15:05

did the news media say, oh, okay,

15:08

okay, great viser, Sure

15:10

we like it, Yeah, that's a good enough for us. There'd

15:13

be questions. There'd be a lot of questions, and there'd

15:15

be a lot of press conferences, and there'd be people

15:17

refusing to attend press conferences and

15:19

people reporting on that. And there

15:21

is something about public health and

15:24

pharma that somehow

15:27

takes the spine and the

15:29

legs out of the news media.

15:31

And that's something might include the fact

15:34

that between seventy and of

15:37

cable news channels are sponsored

15:40

by Visor and other pharma

15:42

companies. That's a problem. Uh.

15:45

And so it's why is it a problem?

15:47

Because it does incline you to not

15:49

want to begin your telecast today

15:52

with all the failings in a

15:54

clinical trial if you feel there wordy

15:56

for example. And so what we're seeing

15:59

is, I is there more fear

16:01

because at the current moment we don't

16:03

have an advocate in

16:05

the news media or in the government

16:08

balancing the only thing we get.

16:10

So, for example, politicians starting with Trump

16:13

going through Biden um talk

16:15

about the big story

16:17

of our lives, which is this pandemic

16:20

probably the biggest event in world history.

16:22

And I don't mean because of COVID, I

16:24

mean because of government reaction lockdowns.

16:27

When you have billions of people affected

16:29

in terms of their day to day lives, that's a big

16:31

deal. So that

16:35

issue that I'm that I'm zeroing

16:37

in on, which is that normally you had

16:39

government saying here's

16:42

the new thing to be afraid of, and I a politician,

16:44

I'm going to fix this for you, and you've got to be aware of it.

16:46

Blah blah blah. Historically,

16:49

governments throughout human history

16:51

have used fear to control populations,

16:54

it's either fear of the other, the bad guys

16:56

in the next village, or it's fear of

16:59

internal uh risks

17:01

like terrorism. But whatever it is, that's

17:03

what governments do. They use fear to control

17:06

conduct and behavior. So,

17:08

if you imagine, to put it in very simple terms,

17:11

the king and the queen, they're looking

17:13

over the castle wall, and there's always

17:15

a castle wall. They're not walking around with everybody

17:17

else for good reason. And they look over

17:19

and they see the population is

17:21

fighting with each other, and that

17:24

is good news. They high five each other,

17:27

because the only bad news for the king and the queen

17:29

is when everybody feels the same way.

17:32

That's when you get real change. That's when you get Tunisia

17:34

or Egypt or the Arab sprint. And

17:37

so at the current moment, the division

17:39

that we see, and it is profound.

17:42

It is civil war profound. The division

17:44

that we see. That division is

17:47

encouraged by those in power.

17:49

It is not discouraged. And I say

17:51

those in power doesn't mean just an administration. I mean

17:54

a government. Administrations come and go,

17:56

government stays. And so when

17:58

you have government doing what governments do they

18:01

never haven't, which is used fear

18:03

to control populations. And to and to influence

18:05

events. And you also have

18:07

the news media doing it, which they always

18:09

have, but they were a check

18:11

in balance prior to this moment.

18:14

The challenge there is that at

18:16

the moment we are being hit with fear

18:19

from government and media and they're not

18:21

in conflict, they are aligned.

18:23

COVID is the worst thing in world history. It

18:26

ain't not even close. Uh

18:29

lockdowns are good, they ain't not even

18:31

close. So anyway, my, my, my,

18:33

My ending to this answer is that

18:36

fear is worse today

18:38

for everyone than

18:40

it was two and a half years ago. In fact,

18:43

I would add sounds like a politician, but

18:45

everything is worse than it was two and

18:47

a half years ago. And so you don't

18:50

you don't see the King and Queen looking

18:52

down and seeing this polarized

18:54

political parties um

18:56

as a good thing?

18:59

Now do you know? It's it's

19:01

like you said, there's civil unrest.

19:03

Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Well?

19:06

I think it's a bad thing, But I assure you politicians

19:09

think it's a good thing. Uh, leaders

19:11

and and people in the White House that

19:13

comes and goes. Of course, I'm sixty eight, so you

19:15

get a fair number of people coming and going

19:17

in the White House, and it's and you see that it's not

19:20

all about them people in power,

19:22

like division among the population

19:25

period that includes the news

19:27

media, who would have very little to report.

19:29

CNN would have even less viewership

19:32

than it has now. Fox would have even less viewership

19:34

than it has now if they didn't have the

19:37

the stridency of their

19:39

disagreements. Uh. And the

19:41

and the division. The division

19:43

is good for business. It is extremely

19:46

bad for the citizens.

19:48

However, extremely bad because

19:50

we are social animals. And

19:53

yet what's happened in the last two and a half years

19:55

that, in my view, must never happen again,

19:57

is the ability for direct communication

20:00

from power to the individual news

20:02

media or direct communication

20:04

from controlled power social

20:06

media to the individual, and not a

20:08

whole lot of communication among

20:10

each other. So all we're left with

20:13

is our controversies. Whereas

20:15

when we're allowed to be together, concert,

20:17

beach, shopping, uh

20:20

event, we are at our

20:22

best. So that's their

20:25

thing, that's okay, But you

20:27

don't give them the central position

20:29

in our lives, top of the news, top

20:32

of the White House all day, twenty

20:34

four hours. When you do that for any one topic,

20:36

we suffer. It could be a war, it

20:38

could be crime. Anything that you make one

20:40

topic. That's not what life is like. There's

20:44

a lot more to come after the short break and

20:56

we're back. I

20:59

read your book a while ago,

21:01

but I remember thinking, yes, I'm

21:03

somebody that sees a serial

21:06

rapist on the news and I'm convinced

21:09

he's out right outside my door,

21:11

when in fact it's a guy

21:14

in you know, northern California

21:16

who's three thousand miles away from me. But

21:18

yet I kind of and

21:21

I think a lot of people do this. You make it about you,

21:23

You put yourself in that scenario,

21:26

in that creative, you know,

21:28

image that you have. UM.

21:30

But I want to talk about spousal homicide

21:33

because you say you can actually

21:35

predict the violence that

21:38

is imminent. Yeah, pre incident

21:40

indicators. But I do just want to say quickly

21:42

because you said, I say it's it's predictable. Yes,

21:45

I think it's the most predictable serious crime

21:47

in our lives that that

21:49

never happens. Where everybody

21:52

says or the victim says, well, I had

21:54

no idea that was coming. Bob just came home and killed

21:56

me. That's not what's going on. She's

21:58

been afraid, she's been concerned.

22:00

There have been police calls, there have been visits.

22:03

You know, he had usually witnessed violence in

22:05

his childhood. He uh, he

22:07

made threats, He used weapons as an

22:09

instrument of power. He glorified weapons.

22:11

He broke things in the house,

22:14

which is called symbolic violence. He you

22:16

know, tore up the picture that she was in. He

22:18

tore up the wedding gown. Um, she

22:20

showed up at work wearing sunglasses. On and

22:23

on and on and on. It is never uh

22:27

that. It's the example I use as you have

22:29

two wolves on a mountain

22:31

path somewhere and they meet each other

22:34

face to face, and one the ears

22:36

go back, and the tail gets big, and the

22:38

hair goes up on their neck, and a low growl starts,

22:41

and then one attacks the other. The

22:43

victim wolf never says, oh, I had no idea

22:45

that was coming. All the signals

22:47

have been exchanged, and human beings are

22:50

no different. Do you think you can

22:52

predict violence not

22:54

only in a spousal

22:57

homicide, but can you predict violence

22:59

in so many different other scenarios?

23:02

Like could you tell me if there's gonna be

23:04

a lot of civil unrest? It's

23:06

true different each kind

23:08

of prediction, and there are many that society

23:11

makes. Is this employee gonna work out

23:13

well for me? Is this boyfriend going to

23:15

turn out to be a great guy or a dangerous guy?

23:17

Is this pilot gonna do a good job?

23:19

Etcetera. And what people often say

23:22

is, well, you never know about people. And

23:25

who says that is the principle of the school

23:27

that hired the teacher who molested the kids,

23:30

Oh, well, you never know about people. Um,

23:32

going directly to your question. The years

23:35

ago, when I used to give speeches, I

23:37

would ask the audience, is there anybody

23:39

here who is at

23:41

this talk today and had had to

23:43

have childcare arranged in order to be here?

23:46

And several hundred people would raise their hands,

23:48

and I would say, is there anybody here who's not

23:50

fully comfortable with the child

23:52

care that they've arranged? And a bunch of people would

23:54

raise their hands, and I would say, go home.

23:57

Yeah, you know, this is not where you want

23:59

to be. But when I interviewed people in the audience,

24:01

invariably the people who told me I

24:03

am absolutely comfortable with

24:06

my child care, they say, we love

24:09

her, we consider her a member of our family,

24:11

we trust her completely. They don't say,

24:13

well, you never know about people. They have a strong

24:16

feeling of certainty about it. And when

24:18

you have a strong feeling of certainty in either

24:20

direction, that's meaningful.

24:22

The prediction you asked me about, can

24:25

we predict social unrest, Well, it

24:27

couldn't be easier to predict because

24:29

we already have social unrest. We've

24:31

had sixteen thousand, thousand

24:35

demonstrations since the beginning of lockdowns

24:38

in the United States, so

24:41

you already have. You'd have to describe

24:43

Los Angeles as a being

24:45

in a state of social unrest, between

24:48

homelessness, between crime. It's

24:51

not all organized social unrest, like they're

24:53

all standing in the same place holding the same sign.

24:55

But the universal pre incident

24:58

indicator for violence, there is a universal

25:00

pre incident indicator. It's always present, and

25:02

that is misery. Yeah. The

25:05

person who comes to school uh

25:07

and shoots up his former

25:09

students or former teachers, the person

25:12

who comes to work and shoots up as co workers.

25:15

These are people in misery.

25:17

They are alienated, they are in

25:19

need, they are suffering, and

25:22

so that is always present. Otherwise,

25:25

human beings don't don't kill each other. There are

25:27

very minor exceptions to that, which

25:30

includes soldiers and police

25:32

officers and people who we accept all

25:34

right, that's a killing we brought into But

25:37

the

25:39

the pilot in the Middle

25:41

East who kills

25:43

a group of people on the ground with a missile,

25:46

and the terrorist who comes

25:48

to New York City and flies an airplane into a

25:50

building, they're making the same

25:53

kind of rationalization

25:56

for killing. One is not a monster

25:58

and the other one a saint. Both

26:00

are deciding, based on the narrative

26:03

in their heads that this is

26:05

justified. So justification

26:08

is the key. January six

26:10

justified in the in the minds

26:12

of the people who showed up to demonstrate

26:14

outside the capital uh Minneapolis.

26:17

All the fires and riots

26:20

and looting, justified in

26:22

the minds of people who were reacting to the

26:25

death of George Floyd. And so justification

26:27

is a key component. Um.

26:31

I think about a lot of our politicians

26:33

now, I would guess there are

26:35

a lot more death threats on our

26:38

congressmen and women and our senators

26:41

than ever before. That's

26:43

true, that's true. Okay,

26:45

that's what I thought. Um. And yet

26:47

yet the government doesn't pay to have

26:50

them have any security.

26:52

That's that's that's that's not correct.

26:55

The security is now

26:57

provided to more public officials than

26:59

at any time in our history. It used to be

27:01

that the Secretary of the Interior

27:04

had a driver, but he didn't have bodyguards.

27:06

Now every member of the cabinet

27:08

has bodyguards assigned in the

27:11

In the Senate, you have the

27:13

Speaker of the House has a full time protective

27:15

detail. Vice President, vice president's

27:18

family, President president's family, former presidents,

27:20

former president's family, Secretary of State, on

27:23

and on and on. But can we provide

27:25

it to thirty five members

27:27

of Congress. No, we can't

27:30

do it. I mean, what do do you want to do? You want

27:32

to spend billions of dollars protecting

27:34

people who go into public life. And

27:36

one of the risks of public life, be it the small

27:38

town mayor or the president, is

27:40

that you're going to uh,

27:43

You're going to encounter people

27:45

who are angry, people who are hostile,

27:48

mentally ill. People that goes with public

27:50

life. Now, I support protection

27:52

for presidents, even though

27:55

mayors get attacked more often than presidents.

27:58

Oh yes, and a bunch of mayors have been shot and killed.

28:00

And there you know where they live, and they live in your town

28:03

and you're piste off about what happened with your

28:05

building permit and you show up at the mayor's house. Um,

28:07

and so. But but I don't

28:09

think we can we can

28:12

solve that problem with bodyguards.

28:15

Uh, look what we're already doing a few

28:17

billion dollars now being spent after January

28:19

six on on fences and all

28:22

variety of physical changes for this very

28:24

small facility. It's only a few acres

28:27

the US capital. Um, do

28:29

we need to do it? Well, we have

28:32

had one event in our history that would tell

28:34

us that we need to do it, But

28:37

it doesn't. It's not a good direction to move

28:39

in because what happens is

28:41

when every federal building is bulletproof,

28:43

and every federal building has a you know, five

28:46

yard space around it with ballers that

28:48

you can't drive a truck toward it, etcetera, etcetera.

28:51

Um, it's a different kind of future, and it

28:53

is letting individuals.

28:55

We had the you know, the bombing

28:57

in Oklahoma City of the Federal building. Now, teen

29:00

children died that in that

29:02

bombing because there was a child care

29:04

facility there. But nineteen children

29:06

die every week killed by

29:09

a parent in the United States.

29:11

And so we have to sort of balance, and unfortunately

29:14

politics doesn't balance very well

29:16

because politics talks about what's got

29:18

our attention. You said the rapist in

29:20

the park. You know, those stories

29:22

are so interesting Because I'm here

29:24

in such and such park, Candlestick Park, where

29:27

yesterday the serial rapist was arrested,

29:29

and I'm interviewing a woman. I'm terrified

29:31

to go in the park. Wait a second, back up,

29:33

he was arrested yesterday. There's one less rapist.

29:36

It's better than it was before. And

29:38

yet, as human beings, and as

29:40

you said, you do naturally we put ourselves

29:42

in that circumstance and we think, I

29:45

don't want to go to that park. But when

29:47

we do that, now the park

29:49

becomes less occupied. Look at New York City.

29:52

New York City is safe and was

29:54

much safer years ago because we occupied

29:56

it. We were out there on the streets, we

29:58

were out there in the parts, we were using the space.

30:01

As soon as we stop using the space,

30:03

the only people left are criminals

30:05

and victims. That's what happens

30:08

in city and LA has its version.

30:10

In l A, we have something called fort Apache

30:12

architecture. Fort Apache is a

30:14

is a concept that says that

30:17

in the Old West you used to scurry

30:20

through the Indian territory to

30:22

get to the next fort, and you'd only

30:24

be safe if you were in the fort. So we surrendered

30:26

all the land outside the forts Los Angeles,

30:28

the Beverly Center, big center,

30:31

tiny little door to go in, the

30:33

Bondaventure Hotel downtown, big glass

30:35

building, tiny little door to go in. When you go in,

30:38

wow, beautiful atrium, plants, fantastic,

30:40

but outside ship. And

30:43

so when we do that, we go through our gated

30:45

to state, We get in our car, we

30:47

drive through the dangerous park, we pull into

30:49

the Beverly Center, and then we're okay. But

30:51

what we're doing is surrendering two

30:54

criminals all the other space, two

30:56

criminals and poor people ultimately who suffered

30:59

the most and who are the predominantly

31:01

the victims of homicides and crimes.

31:03

So we need to be brave.

31:07

We need to do what Israel does. Israel

31:10

has a bus is

31:12

blown up, and the next day

31:14

people are lining up to ride that next

31:16

bus on the same route. What

31:18

does America, doing the same circumstance, put

31:20

our guards on the bus, make the bus bulletproof,

31:23

change the bus, don't take

31:26

the bus, of course, and uh and

31:29

you know next up people who took the bus and their

31:31

funerals and blah blah blah. So

31:34

yeah, it's a it's a challenge. Look, it's

31:36

a challenge, but we've never what's changed

31:38

in world history? You asked me about the King and Queen?

31:40

And do people still like division? They love

31:43

it? Yes, politicians, please more.

31:46

But what's changed is over a thousand years

31:48

ago with the King and Queen. Is this

31:50

electronic business we're on right now?

31:52

What's changed is the ability to speak

31:54

globally and influence news globally.

31:57

Facebook takes off hate speech, for example.

32:00

Ain't that great? But do we

32:02

want Facebook deciding what's

32:04

hate speech or what's got to be

32:06

said or what's I don't not

32:09

at all. I prefer that the solution

32:11

to speech we don't like is

32:13

speech we do like. I prefer that

32:16

method, and that's how you and I grew

32:18

up most of our lives. Of Course, people are

32:20

going to say ship you don't like. Of course

32:22

they are, and they usually suffer for

32:24

it. And

32:27

it's time for a short break. Welcome

32:37

back to go ask Ali. So.

32:41

I didn't know the difference between intuition

32:44

and fear until I

32:46

was living in Los Angeles and I

32:49

was attacked by a gang and

32:52

they robbed me

32:54

and they threw me up against the car they were

32:56

preparing to gang rate me. They were lining

32:58

up, they were came my clothes off and

33:01

then started screaming at each other in Spanish

33:03

and then tried to push me in the car. And

33:06

I was in a complete submissive

33:08

state. I was going to do exactly what they

33:10

told me to do, and I was shut down.

33:13

I mean it was a survival thing of just completely

33:15

shutting down, leaving my body.

33:18

And at one point I looked over at

33:20

this guy that I was with when we

33:22

were both attacked, and he mouthed

33:24

to me, don't get in. And

33:27

it hit me on such a

33:30

visceral level, and it immediately

33:32

my instinct was if I get

33:34

in this car, I'm going to be killed.

33:36

And I turned around and I ran as

33:39

fast as I could. Two of the gang members chased

33:41

me, couldn't catch me. You

33:43

know, long story short, I tried to I stopped

33:45

some cars. My friend was being stabbed

33:48

but survived. But this experience

33:52

taught me that I that

33:56

a part of me that I wasn't even aware of,

33:58

which I call my gut, said

34:01

to me, in its most survivalist

34:03

way, run basically

34:06

run. And so that's what I

34:09

you know, that's uh,

34:12

I don't know how you I mean, you could term it better than

34:14

me, but it's almost like survival.

34:17

It's my my survival gut or

34:20

that voice or tendency.

34:22

It's not really fight or flight. It's more,

34:25

um, you've got

34:27

your hyper instinctual

34:29

about a situation. It's

34:32

true, and it's it's really at the center of my

34:34

work is intuition. And when I

34:36

was writing Gift of Fear, the the

34:38

word I learned the origin of the word is

34:40

in tear, which means to guard and

34:43

to protect. And you mentioned your

34:45

gut. The gut actually has

34:47

neurons. It has more neurons,

34:50

more brain cells in effect than a dog

34:52

has. It has a great deal of intelligence,

34:54

and it has intelligence that's unfiltered

34:57

when when it's up here we filter it. Oh, I don't want to

34:59

be that kind person. I'll just get in the elevator with that scary

35:02

guy and so we get into a steel, sound

35:04

proof chamber with somebody we're afraid of. No

35:06

other animal in nature would do that. So I think

35:08

that when I'm a big believer in listening

35:11

to intuition, and intuition says, in

35:13

effect, shut up and do exactly what I

35:15

tell you, and I'll get you out of here. And sometimes

35:17

it's counterintuitive, Like you were told,

35:20

always cooperate with people or they'll kill you.

35:22

Know, very often that's exactly the opposite

35:25

of true. And so the the

35:27

the experience you just recounted to

35:29

me reminds me of a woman I interviewed

35:32

where she said, uh that. She said

35:35

it was like an animal uncoiled inside

35:37

me, and I was a passenger

35:40

on my own legs, meaning

35:42

the thing was happening, and the

35:44

there's a woman I interviewed who was

35:46

attacked with her six year old

35:48

daughter. She'd put in the car and she had to get

35:50

around the car and get into the driver's seat.

35:53

And she as she got into the driver's seat, the

35:55

guy was upon her and he was trying to

35:57

hold her legs, and she heard

35:59

the in her mind car key,

36:02

and she thought, I don't want to be the kind of person

36:04

who sticks a key in

36:06

this guy's eye. But amazingly

36:09

she had already done it, and the car

36:11

door had already closed and she had already driven

36:13

away, and then she said, um,

36:15

gee, at least I didn't, you know, stick him in both

36:18

eyes. And then she realized she had done that too.

36:20

Boom boom, And so intuition

36:23

had handled the whole situation.

36:25

So I'm a big believer in intuition, and I believe

36:27

that it is our nuclear defense

36:30

system. Nature has made such a

36:32

huge investment in human beings, every

36:34

one of us, with these millions of neurons

36:37

and this remarkable system that we are,

36:39

and this shared collective genius

36:41

and the individual genius that there's no

36:44

way your daughters were built as

36:46

the most recent model of human being without

36:48

a defense system, and they have a

36:50

nuclear defense system. And that is intuition.

36:54

Intuition is just the communication method

36:57

by which you get the signal for

36:59

your survivor. So how does intuition

37:01

speak with us? It speaks with us through

37:03

gut feelings, through um,

37:06

through hunches, through suspicion. Uh,

37:09

that is an interesting word to suspicion,

37:11

because suspicion people think, oh, I don't want to be suspicious

37:13

of somebody. But all it means the words

37:16

suspice are the root. It means to

37:18

watch. It just means watch,

37:20

just means pay attention. So fear

37:22

is one of the signals of intuition. It's

37:25

the one that's hardest to ignore because

37:27

we feel terrible and and it gets our attention.

37:30

But there are many signals of intuition,

37:32

hunches, gut feelings. Curiosity

37:35

is a signal of intuition, like why did I and

37:37

then you get the idea and you don't go in that underground

37:39

parking lot. So the key is to

37:42

listen to it, to listen to intuition

37:44

and give it a voice and let it, don't

37:46

prosecute it, and send it on its way. That's

37:49

what we do a lot. Oh, I don't want to be like that.

37:51

I'm gonna get in this elevator or this

37:53

is a this is a very sophisticated hospital,

37:55

the Sisters of Mercy. For Christ's sake, I should

37:58

listen to the doctor, not if you think you should, not

38:00

if you have a strong feeling that says whoa, whoa, wha,

38:03

not this guy. And there's a bunch of stories

38:05

in my book of people who did listen

38:07

to doctors who were doing surgery on their kids

38:09

and regretted it because they had the

38:11

feeling not this doctor. Is

38:14

it okay to take your kid, get in the car and go home.

38:16

Yes? Is it okay to stand in line

38:18

at the at the clinic or

38:20

hospital for some treatment and feel

38:22

I'll change my mind? Yes, you can

38:24

do that. You can do that, and I

38:27

do want to be sure at some time that there

38:29

is that I tell everybody there is

38:31

a Gift of Fear master Class series that's

38:33

available for free at Gift

38:35

of Fear dot com. I'm not charging anybody

38:37

for it's it's ten episodes

38:40

long. I'm very proud of it. It's

38:42

interviewing a lot of people who prevailed through

38:44

violence, and um, and I can.

38:47

I can plug it mercilessly because

38:49

it's free. Um. Not everybody reads

38:52

books, and not everybody has time to read

38:54

books, and so Gift to Fear is a great book. It's out

38:56

there. Uh. But the

38:58

Gift of Fear master Class series is I

39:00

really aimed at younger people

39:02

who could absorb it in in video

39:05

form, and it's Gift of Fear dot com.

39:07

That's it. End of the plug, which

39:09

is great. It's a perfect way to end the podcast before

39:16

we go. You know, I ask in my

39:19

podcast lots and lots of questions to my

39:21

guests, and then I get to turn around and you

39:23

get to ask me anything, my my

39:25

cupcake recipe, whatever you want.

39:28

So what would you like to ask me? Thank

39:30

you so much. It's not about cupcake recipe.

39:33

I have no interest in baking, but I love

39:36

banana bread that my wife makes. That's a plug

39:38

for our banana bread. My question

39:40

for you has to do with the

39:42

news media also, but in a in a very

39:44

specific sense. How do you

39:46

deal with disagreement with

39:49

your um, your

39:51

husband, with George? How

39:54

do you deal with disagreement when you see

39:56

something differently, when you

39:58

feel differently about it, how do you deal

40:00

with it? Well, when

40:02

we first got married, how we dealt

40:04

with it was I thought, well, he's a Rhodes

40:07

scholar, so he probably knows better

40:09

than me. That didn't last very

40:11

long. And now I think, I

40:14

mean, I think that our fundamental beliefs

40:16

are the same. I don't you know, we're not

40:18

a James Carvill Mary Matlin.

40:20

You know, we don't fight over politics.

40:23

I would say that George is incredibly

40:25

receptive to conversation,

40:28

UM, but we we rarely

40:31

disagree. There are times where I'm more

40:33

of an alarmist about things. You

40:35

know, I just a week ago, you

40:38

know, I was hearing from people, Oh my god, you know, nuclear

40:40

war missiles North Korea, Uh,

40:42

you know Putin And people are

40:44

like, you know, we're gonna go live in Portugal or we're gonna

40:47

go to Malta. And I was eating

40:49

dinner with George and I looked over at him

40:51

and I said, so, what are we going to do

40:54

in case of a nuclear war?

40:56

And George just looked at me and he said, We're going to die.

41:00

And I said, oh, shouldn't we be planning

41:02

anything? Is No, I think it's better we just die.

41:04

And then I was like somewhat calmed,

41:06

and you know, finished my meat loaf. But so

41:11

we do listen to each other, you know. And

41:13

if I have a very and I've had very

41:15

strong opinions, um,

41:17

he knows when that tone

41:20

and that passion comes out of me that

41:23

I'm serious. And usually

41:26

I'm right. When I get to that heightened

41:28

state, I'm usually right. That's

41:30

intuition. That that's intuition usually

41:32

and and true for my wife and me too. And

41:34

I just want to say, you said your values

41:36

are aligned, and that's

41:39

at the core of this issue of

41:41

public division, because in fact, if

41:43

we knew the values of

41:46

those terrible people we judge, um,

41:49

we would find they are also aligned. The

41:51

reality is that the people in those countries,

41:53

and the people in the South, and the people who voted

41:55

for Trump, and the people of this. The people of that all

41:58

care about their kids having a good

42:00

life, all care about the people they love,

42:03

all care about being heard and recognized,

42:05

all care about being part of something vastly

42:08

more, as I write about in Gift of Fear, vastly

42:10

more we have in common than we have

42:13

in contrast. And thank

42:15

you for the answer, by the way, that was a great answer, and I really

42:17

appreciate and I'm glad you guys talk about everything.

42:19

That's a great way to do it. Because all forbidden

42:22

speech in relationships is

42:24

toxic, All forbidden topics

42:26

are toxic because we don't actually have a

42:28

dialogue and we don't get anywhere.

42:30

No, I always say to George, our whole country needs to

42:32

be in couple therapy. Really, yeah,

42:35

it's very true. So anyway,

42:37

Gavin, thank you very much, Thank

42:42

you for listening to go ask Ali. You

42:44

can watch his free master class on personal

42:46

safety at Gift of Fear dot com

42:49

and learn more about Gavin and his company

42:51

at g d b A dot com.

42:54

For more info and what you've heard in this episode,

42:56

and for link to Gavin's book, The Gift of Fear,

42:59

check out our show notes. Be sure to subscribe,

43:01

rate, and review go ask Alli and follow

43:03

me on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth

43:06

Now. If you'd like to ask me a question or suggest

43:08

a guest or a topic to dig into, I would love

43:10

to hear from you, and there's a bunch of ways you

43:12

can do it. You can call or text me at

43:15

three to three four six

43:17

three six, or you can email

43:19

a voice memo right from your phone to Go ask

43:21

Alli Podcasts at gmail dot com.

43:23

And if you leave a question, you just might

43:26

hear it. I'm go ask Alli. Go

43:37

ask Alli is a production of Shonda land

43:39

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