0:01

Welcome to go Ask Ali, a production

0:03

of Shonda Land Audio and partnership with I

0:06

Heart Radio. Rolling on the full.

0:08

Loafing is a thing I can. I've seen you know, We've

0:10

all seen people do it. I've done it, I've kidding

0:13

For me now, the work is to

0:15

want what I have, even kind

0:17

of shinny stuff. You know, that's my work. It's

0:20

it's imperfect. So let me ask you a question about

0:22

actors because you are yeah,

0:25

me too. We are old, funny duddies.

0:27

We go to sleep at ten, we wake up at six,

0:30

we go to bed at eight, So there are more

0:33

funny duddies than you. You are the funny

0:35

duddiest. Yes, welcome

0:40

to go ask Allie. I'm Ali Wentworth Now.

0:42

One of the most requested topics

0:44

by listeners is making friends

0:46

as adults. So for all

0:49

you listeners out there, today's your

0:51

lucky day. As important as

0:53

food, oxygen, and water.

0:56

Friendship, you know everybody

1:00

has struggled with friendship, how

1:02

we attach ourselves to people,

1:05

how we detach ourselves to people.

1:08

I know for me that my friendships

1:10

are as meaningful and

1:13

integral to my life as my husband

1:15

and my children and everything else. And

1:18

friendship is a very big subject

1:20

in my house for me because

1:22

I hold my friendships so

1:25

dear. But also I have two

1:27

teenage daughters who are constantly

1:29

trying to chart the waters of friendship

1:32

and all the pain and elation that

1:35

goes with it. And my mother,

1:37

who at eighty eight years old,

1:40

has found herself a widow and

1:43

with many of her friends deceased. So

1:46

how do we maintain friendships?

1:48

How do we make new friendships? My

1:51

guest today is Dr Marissa G. Franco.

1:53

She's a psychologist, professor, and author

1:56

of Platonic, How the Science of

1:58

Attachment can help You Make and Keep

2:00

Friends. She writes about friendship

2:02

for Psychology Today and has been a featured

2:05

connection expert from major publications

2:07

like The New York Times, The Telegraph, Advice.

2:11

Marissa is a professor at the University of

2:13

Maryland and speaks on belonging at

2:15

corporations, universities, and

2:17

more. Welcome,

2:22

Marissa, So happy to be talking with you.

2:25

I am so glad you're here because

2:27

I find that female friendship

2:30

is such an integral part of

2:32

all of our lives. And I take my friendships

2:35

very seriously, and I have to say that my

2:38

my friendships have caused me

2:41

even more pain than

2:43

my love relationships in the past. So

2:47

I just ate your book

2:49

right up, Platonic how the science of attachment

2:52

can help you make and keep friends, because there's

2:54

so much there, and

2:57

there's so much there that I want to give my daughters

2:59

too, because is obviously they're

3:01

younger than me, and they're dealing with friendships

3:04

in a different way that I am as

3:06

an old lady. Now, um,

3:08

but the most important the theme in your

3:10

book is really attachment and

3:13

the whole theory of attachment. So let's

3:15

let's just dive into that right away.

3:18

Yeah. Well, first of all, Alliam, I'm

3:20

so honored to hear that you want to share it with

3:22

your daughters. That really touches me.

3:24

Oh, I sent your book Platonic to my

3:26

daughter in college because I feel

3:28

like they're always struggling with

3:31

friendships, and you know, from

3:34

from kindergarten on you're you're

3:36

constantly dealing with how

3:39

you attached to people. So let's

3:41

start with attachment theory.

3:43

So attachment theory is basically

3:45

the idea that in our early lives

3:48

with our parents, we begin to

3:50

develop a certain template for how people will

3:52

treat us, and after that we we

3:54

developed that template, we engage in like confirmation

3:57

biases, where we see people interacting

3:59

with us in ways that match that template and

4:01

almost ignore times that they don't write. And

4:03

then we build a number of strategies in

4:06

reaction to these assumptions that we think people

4:09

in reaction to these ways that we think other people will

4:11

treat us. So, you know, what does that mean

4:13

in a more practical way, If you're anxiously

4:15

attached, your template says people

4:18

are going to abandon me unless I cling cling

4:20

cling close to them, right, And

4:23

so you know, anxiously attached people,

4:26

they often misspire and

4:28

think they're being rejected even when they're not.

4:30

They often give too much in

4:32

friendships because again they need they feel like

4:34

they need to to feel worthy to feel

4:36

like they'll keep other people around. They

4:39

don't stand up for themselves, they don't have

4:41

boundaries, they don't bring up conflicts again

4:43

fear that other people are gonna abandon you. Sometimes

4:45

they can also be quite demanding because

4:47

of the sense that I need you to do

4:49

this to prove that I am worthy to me right,

4:52

And and sometimes they don't necessarily consider

4:55

other people have different needs outside of them, or reacting

4:57

to them in ways that aren't necessarily personal. Right,

5:00

and then you have avoidingly attached people. Their

5:02

template their early childhood was usually

5:05

I got food, I got water, I

5:07

got shelter, but there was nothing emotionally.

5:10

It was sort of like emotional neglect. I

5:12

was told to handle things on my own, you know,

5:15

be a big boy, be a big girl. And

5:17

what that means is that avoidingly attached

5:19

people are very uncomfortable with emotions,

5:22

very uncomfortable with intimacy. Their template

5:24

says, other people can't be trustworthy,

5:27

so they tend to invest

5:30

less in friendship. They tend to not be as vulnerable

5:32

in friendship, they tend to ghost more. Um,

5:35

you know, people that are friends with them feel like I've known

5:37

them for so long, but I don't feel like I really

5:39

know them because they're not necessarily vulnerable.

5:41

Or I don't feel reciprocity. I feel like I'm

5:44

putting in all this effort but the other person isn't.

5:46

Because avoidingly attached people fundamentally

5:49

enjoy friendship less because they see

5:52

it as a liability or responsibility.

5:54

Right. And then you have securely

5:56

attached people who have learned

5:59

in their relationships. And again,

6:01

it's it starts with your parents or caretakers.

6:03

But it evolves, right, so it's not just your

6:05

early relationships, and they

6:09

trust that they can build relationships

6:11

with people. They trust that other people like them.

6:14

They are comfortable being vulnerable, but

6:16

in a way, that's that oversharing, right.

6:18

If someone withdraws from them or doesn't

6:20

like them, they kind of walk away instead

6:22

of work harder, which you tend to see with more anxiously

6:24

attached people, they're better at initiating

6:27

friendships, less likely to dissolve friendships.

6:29

Their friendships are are very stable, right,

6:31

And that's why I call them like the super friends

6:33

of connection. And I think what we learn from

6:36

attachment theory and what I argue

6:38

in Platonic is that our personality

6:41

is fundamentally a reflection of

6:43

our past experiences of connection. Whether

6:45

we are open, warm, trusting,

6:47

critical, aggressive, you know, generous,

6:50

all of these are predicted by whether we've connected

6:52

well in the past. But not only that, then

6:54

who we are affects how we connect. The people

6:56

that are best at connecting now typically

6:58

have healthier history of relationships, which

7:01

have given them the template that

7:03

other people are trustworthy, that they can connect with people

7:05

that allows them to continue to connect whereas

7:08

if you've had a very difficult history that you haven't

7:10

processed, it can lead you with a set of beliefs

7:13

and a set of strategies that actually make

7:15

it a little bit more difficult to form relationships

7:17

and friendships in the future. Okay,

7:20

So, can somebody be born

7:23

with anxious attachment just

7:25

sort of based on their personality or

7:28

is it environmental? Yeah,

7:30

this is a great question, um, something

7:32

I want to clarify because I tell people about attachment

7:35

theory and they're like, good for those people with healthy

7:37

parents, Like, Okay, you know I'm

7:40

at a luck then, And I don't think that's what I'm trying

7:42

to convey, especially for me as someone who's

7:44

gone from anxious to more secure. Your

7:46

attachment can fundamentally change over time.

7:49

Some research finds that it's more likely to change than

7:51

stay the same after you, you know, you have different

7:53

relationships that that kind of adjust your sculpture

7:56

template over time. Right, And I think

7:58

knowing about our attachment style isn't

8:00

deterministic that we're going to be doomed because

8:02

we had doomed relationships in the past, but

8:04

instead it allows us to instead

8:07

say nobody can be trusted,

8:09

you know, everybody's gonna abandon me. And

8:12

if you feel like that is the truth that's out there

8:14

in the world, you have no agency, You're

8:16

just powerless. Right. But

8:19

when you know how your own behavior can influence

8:21

people in ways that make it more likely

8:24

that your fears are going to come to fruition because you

8:27

sort of behave in ways that make these behaviors

8:29

more likely to be true, then you can change

8:31

your behaviors and you can develop

8:33

really good relationships with people. So I hope that it can

8:35

be more empowering. But related to your

8:37

question, Ali it there is a genetic

8:39

component to attachment. Um. There's

8:41

this theory and psychology called the orchid hypothesis,

8:45

which is basically the idea that some

8:48

of us are more vulnerable to our environments,

8:50

whether good or bad. Right. So

8:52

if these these more sensitive folks um

8:55

genetically right, are in a good

8:57

environment, they're going to thrive. If they're in a bad

8:59

environment, are going to be devastated. Right. Others

9:02

of us are kind of like we have less of

9:04

a range, Like we're gonna be kind of similar.

9:06

We're not as affected by our environment,

9:09

so our outcomes are going to be like sort of similar

9:12

ish whether we have really good environment

9:14

or a bad one, right, And so

9:16

there is that genetic difference which

9:19

is partially how much are we absorbing

9:21

our environment that that differs between

9:23

a lot of us. Yeah, because I

9:25

think, you know, for instance, I'm thinking about

9:28

one of my daughters, who, you

9:30

know, the second she came

9:32

out in the hospital, she was mommy,

9:34

mommy, mommy, and she was a clingy

9:37

baby. She wouldn't let anyone else hold her.

9:39

And you know, I think she

9:42

falls under the category of anxious

9:44

attachment, and it's

9:47

it's, you know, maybe I coddled her too much,

9:49

But I don't look at it as

9:52

oh, did we not give her enough love? Did

9:54

we not you know, nurture her enough.

9:56

We did in huge amounts.

9:59

She literally was born like that,

10:01

like as a baby, whereas

10:03

my other daughter was like, hey,

10:05

put me in the crib, I don't care, I'm fine, And

10:08

she has, you know, she has more

10:10

of the calmer, kind

10:12

of less attached personality,

10:16

and so in some ways, I do think it's genetic.

10:18

Yeah. Yeah, I think what you're talking about

10:21

is a temperament and the psychology, which

10:23

is like we're kind of born with a certain temperament

10:26

that then can sort of interact with our environment

10:28

in certain ways, right, because temperaments are also going to draw

10:31

something different out of a parent, right. Yes.

10:33

Absolutely, you might react to your babies differently

10:35

because they have they're reacting to you differently. Right.

10:37

So it's it's really interesting how these

10:39

two things can intersect. Yes. And

10:42

so one of the things I

10:44

am fascinated by in your book is the idea

10:46

of, in terms of friendship, platonic

10:49

love. Right. So,

10:51

platonic love is the

10:54

love I have, let's say, for my girlfriends,

10:56

and even though they lack

10:59

sex and fashion, they

11:01

feel to me just as

11:04

integral to my life and as strong

11:07

as a romantic relationship.

11:10

Yeah. Yeah, And actually I think in platonic

11:13

I was interested in learning the lines between

11:16

romance and friendship

11:19

because Angela Chen she

11:22

she has this really great book Ace, and she kind of

11:24

talks about how, you

11:26

know, in the a sexual community, there's very

11:28

much a distinction between being sexually attracted

11:30

someone and romantically attracted to someone, right,

11:33

And so sexual attraction as I want to have sex

11:35

with you, Romantic attraction is I'm passionate

11:38

about you, I idealize you, I think you're amazing,

11:40

you feel like my soul ate right. And so

11:42

when we look at relationships

11:44

between woman friends in particular, we

11:46

see them saying things like you are my soulmate

11:49

and all I want to do is spend my time

11:51

with you, right, And that is

11:53

sort of sounds like it's kind of on the romantic

11:56

spectrum. And in fact, throughout our history,

11:58

um, you know, in the early

12:02

seventeen hundreds, there was the sense

12:04

that the genders are so distinct that

12:06

you can only find this true and deep

12:08

intimacy with your friends who share

12:10

the same gender as you, kind of like romance

12:13

being more of a part of friendship than it was

12:16

marriage. Right, And so at that time, friends

12:18

were holding hands, friends were sharing beds,

12:20

friends were cuddling, right because all

12:22

of that, m oh, that was

12:24

normal at that time. Now, of course, our script

12:27

for friendship is a lot more limited. Right.

12:29

But I think if we look at if we

12:31

can differentiate or take a fine tiof

12:33

comb between the differences between all these different forms

12:35

of love, we can see that romantic

12:38

relationships romantic feelings are

12:41

kind of I would argue, even normal without

12:43

a lot of particularly close and intimate friendships.

12:46

Okay, so let me ask you this, because this is

12:49

advice that I've given my friends,

12:51

and you can tell me it's probably wrong,

12:54

and I'll make sure I edit this part out.

12:56

But um, I

12:59

say to my girlfriends

13:03

that they shouldn't expect

13:05

their partner to be their best friend,

13:08

because I feel like they are setting

13:10

themselves up let's say when they first lived

13:12

with somebody or marry them, because

13:15

I have found the game

13:17

changer in my marriage, which is a very

13:19

good marriage, was that

13:21

when I would go to my husband for

13:24

a lot of kind of scaffolding, he

13:27

he just wasn't the person

13:29

like I never was satiated by

13:31

what I got back from him. But if I went to

13:34

my girlfriends, you know, they like to chew

13:36

on some of the stuff I like to chew on for a

13:38

lot longer. And yet

13:40

my life path is with

13:42

my husband and sort of the big

13:44

issues I deal with with my husband and obviously

13:47

have sex with my husband. But my

13:49

girlfriends I've sort

13:51

of kept for a lot of the other

13:54

emotional stuff that I

13:56

sometimes think it's too inundating for my husband.

13:59

Meaning I say to my girlfriends, don't

14:02

necessarily go into marriage with this idea

14:04

that this person is your all, your

14:06

best friend, your lover, or your everything. Am

14:08

I right or am I wrong? I

14:12

agree with the idea that your

14:14

spouse should not be your

14:16

everything, and in fact I argue that

14:20

being in a healthy

14:22

romantic relationship or healthy marriage

14:24

really requires you to have people to support

14:27

you outside of that marriage, because the

14:29

research finds that when you're in conflict with

14:31

your spouse, it disrupts your stress

14:34

hormone release in unhealthy ways

14:36

unless you have quality connection outside that

14:38

marriage. That when you make a friend, not

14:41

only are you less depressed, your spouse is

14:43

less depressed too. Um that people

14:45

that you know, related to what you said, Alie, engage

14:48

in emotion ships, which means you go to different people

14:50

to help you work through different emotions, they have higher

14:52

overall well being. That women

14:55

who have close friends out of the marriage are

14:57

more resilient to strife within the

14:59

marriag much whereas people that only rely

15:02

on a spouse, they're very

15:04

devastated when things go wrong. Right

15:06

their mental health, according to the research, is

15:08

just more impacted by the natural ebbs

15:11

and flows in that relationship. And

15:13

what that means is that if something goes wrong

15:15

and you're completely off kilter, it's harder to

15:17

heal from it, Whereas if something goes wrong,

15:20

and you go out and you get some support, you return

15:22

to your relationship in a centered place to be like,

15:24

we're not enemies, let's work this out. I've process

15:26

of my feelings. I'm not in a reactive place that

15:29

is such a great resource for your marriage.

15:31

And so I definitely agree

15:33

with you that this has been a truth throughout our entire

15:36

species that somehow we've forgotten in

15:38

recent decades, that we've always needed

15:40

an entire community to feel

15:42

whole. And so I hope that my message

15:45

of friendship is really really important

15:47

while I came to it going through breakups

15:49

and feeling like I feel so bad

15:51

in these breakups because I feel like romantic

15:53

love is the only love that makes me lovable, and I'm

15:55

questioning whether that's true because I see how much

15:58

my friends love me. Right. But I think this message

16:00

of we have to maybe see love unless of

16:02

a hierarchy, so that we can value

16:05

and put effort into our platonic partnerships just

16:07

like we do our marriage, right, I think it benefits

16:09

all of us, whether we're single or whether we're

16:11

married. I would go so

16:13

far as to say that in the past

16:16

what I found was so kind of helpful

16:18

to my well being, And you talk about a wellness

16:20

group at the beginning of the book. UM

16:23

was I've had versions of that. I've had

16:26

lunch clubs, I've had book clubs.

16:29

UM I have basically

16:31

now a like a menopause

16:33

club with a group of women my

16:36

age. That is, so the sole

16:38

purpose is to

16:40

support each other. And you

16:42

know, when somebody's parent dies

16:44

or a divorce, or you know, any kind

16:47

of life shift, we

16:49

kind of circle the wagons and

16:51

and I think it's so important. And I think

16:54

that there's something about

16:57

the group of women that kind of quilt

16:59

together, the kind of support that

17:01

is impossible to find anywhere

17:04

else. Yeah. I also

17:06

love a group, you know, monthly Spanish speaking

17:08

group and a bi weekly dinner club.

17:10

And you know, I talked about the world this group. I

17:12

love having groups for everything. But what

17:15

we're doing when we create those groups is that

17:17

we are creating the infrastructure

17:19

for friendship to happen organically. So

17:22

this sociologist Rebecca Adams, she

17:24

argues that for friendship to happen organically,

17:27

we need repeated, unplanned

17:29

interaction and shared vulnerability,

17:32

which is school Jim lunch

17:35

recess, right, But as adults,

17:37

we don't often inhabit those environments unless

17:39

we seek them out intentionally. Because work,

17:42

we're not often vulnerable at work, So we're seeing each

17:44

other repeatedly, we're only showing a professional

17:47

quote unquote side of ourselves. We don't actually

17:49

know each other. Right, So if we rely

17:52

on that template from childhood, we

17:54

are going to be lonely and in fact as

17:56

adults. A study found that people

17:58

that think friendship happened without effort are

18:01

more lonely five years later, whereas

18:03

those that see it as taking effort are less

18:05

lonely. Right. And so when

18:07

we create these groups, right, we are giving

18:09

ourselves continuous, unplanned interaction and shared

18:12

vulnerability. We are creating the

18:14

ingredients for our friendships to sort

18:16

of take off and strengthen on our own without

18:18

us having to continue to product them in

18:20

the same way. And it's interesting

18:22

because I have my mother now,

18:25

who is in

18:27

her late eighties. She was somebody

18:29

that had very strong, incredible

18:31

friendships in her lifetime, and she's

18:34

at a point now and you talk about widows

18:37

in your book, but she's at a point now where

18:39

her husband is dead and all

18:41

her close female friends are dead. And

18:44

one of the things that she and I talked about

18:46

a lot is how she at

18:50

can find community now, you

18:52

know what I mean, because she's not even out and

18:54

about. And I said, I know

18:56

that this sounds

18:59

simplistic, but you know you should

19:01

invite people over to play. You

19:03

know, you know there art classes

19:05

and groups like and it used to those

19:07

sort of things when you would hear people

19:09

say it sounded so kind of perfunctory

19:12

and like, oh yeah, okay, I'm not going to join a

19:14

group. But as I get older,

19:16

I realized, yeah, yeah, you kind of have to,

19:19

you know what I mean. And for her well being,

19:22

she needs to figure out

19:24

a way in her late eighties now to find

19:27

friendship. In mind that and as

19:30

much as she you know, needs to get her

19:32

heart checked and bone density, all

19:34

of it exactly. There's

19:38

a lot more to come after the short break and

19:48

we're back. It's

19:51

funny what you were saying to earlier about vulnerability,

19:54

because I have found that and and

19:56

this is not gender prejudice,

19:59

just in my in my life,

20:02

I have noticed that a lot of

20:04

my male friends have

20:06

a fear of vulnerability, and therefore

20:09

their friendships aren't as

20:12

close. And even my husband, I would

20:14

say that that's true with him. Yeah,

20:17

and you are right that vulnerability.

20:19

First of all, um, men are about

20:22

half as likely to to access

20:24

support within their friendships in a given week

20:26

than woman and that that really

20:28

does hinder men's friendships. You

20:30

know, men men have tend to have these more companionate

20:32

friends where you're hanging out around an activity, and

20:35

that is a great form of friendship to write,

20:38

but it has its limitations. We've

20:40

seen that in the pandemic right. If you have friends that you're

20:42

just hanging out with to to play golf and you

20:44

can't see each other, someone moves or you have

20:46

a pandemic, right, which hopefully doesn't happen again.

20:49

But you know, if people move or they become long distance,

20:51

then obviously your ability to maintain that connection

20:53

is very limited. And fundamentally,

20:55

being vulnerable, it does

20:58

increase the depth and the closeness. We

21:00

know from the research that people that intimately

21:02

self disclose are liked more than other

21:04

people. People that express negative

21:06

emotion. Although we think, you know, friendship

21:08

is positive vibes only, they actually are

21:11

more likely to make friends in their traditions

21:13

in their transition to college. And

21:15

we also know that it's very necessary for

21:17

our mental health and well being. Right. That throughout

21:20

the book, I think you'll see that all of the things

21:22

that we do that create connection also tend

21:24

to improve our mental health and well being, vulnerability

21:27

included. Right, So, people that

21:29

conceal tend to be more concealing

21:31

of information about themselves, they experience

21:34

more depression, more suicidality. One

21:36

study that looked at a hundred and six factors

21:38

that predict depression found that having

21:41

it a confidance, someone you're confiding is

21:43

is the number one factor that prevents depression.

21:46

And so I think in the in the American

21:48

culture, we kind of have this very

21:50

false ideal that to be strong

21:53

means I never need anyone and

21:55

I'm handling things on my own at all

21:57

times. Right, And the research binds

21:59

that people that are like that, they tend to experience

22:01

more physical health issues. They're not releasing

22:04

their emotions, so they manifest physically.

22:06

They experience more you know, headaches,

22:08

more gas through intestinal issues. It's not

22:10

that they go away or those emotions aren't there,

22:12

it's just that they're they're kind of wreaking havoc

22:14

on you physically. It's even if you don't if

22:17

you can't necessarily be aware of it, mentally

22:19

right. And so when we see the people

22:21

that actually are the most resilient, it's

22:23

the securely attached people. And that

22:26

security comes from I shared

22:28

myself with other people. They responded

22:30

in a loving and accepting way, and

22:33

I internalize that into being

22:35

part of my sense of self. But I would say

22:37

with the anxiety attachment, and

22:40

I can speak for myself, but

22:42

with anxiety attachment, there's

22:44

obviously the fear of vulnerability.

22:46

But what happens when you are

22:49

vulnerable with somebody else You

22:51

express a secretive part

22:53

of yourself or you know, vulnerable party

22:56

of yourself, and it freaks

22:58

them out or it causes

23:00

them to pull away. Then you

23:03

you it's like it's more damage

23:05

than if you hadn't. Yeah,

23:07

No, you're absolutely right, and

23:10

you're right that it's actually better

23:12

to not be vulnerable if the other person isn't safe.

23:14

But you don't know that, right, Yeah,

23:17

and you don't know that. But I also want to differentiate

23:19

between oversharing and vulnerability.

23:22

Um anxiously attached people, right, they're

23:24

they're afraid that other people are going to reject and abandon

23:27

them. So often their vulnerability

23:29

can come from a place of I want to test

23:31

you to see if you'll abandon me, rather

23:34

than I feel safe with you, and as a reflection

23:36

of that relationship, I am then going to be vulnerable

23:38

with you. Right, And so it isn't

23:41

as authentic because it's like I'm doing this to

23:43

test you and see your reaction and decide

23:45

whether you'll stay around, whereas a vulnerable

23:48

act is more like I'm discerning

23:50

that I feel safe in this moment, and that

23:52

is what is pushing me to share my internal

23:55

world with you. And so I think how we

23:57

understand ourselves, whether I'm being vulnerable or over

24:00

hearing. Is is this coming from a place of fear?

24:02

Right? Is this coming from a place of fear that

24:04

you're going to pull away from me? Versus

24:06

when I'm vulnerable? Is this coming from a sense of safety?

24:09

Right? Two different things that differentiate

24:11

those two acts. But I also want to say

24:14

avoidably attached. There was a study that

24:16

looked at people answering, you

24:18

know, thirty six questions. It was even

24:20

gotten to the New York Times thirty six questions

24:22

to fall in love. When I read that study,

24:24

I found that in general, if we go

24:26

through these thirty six questions of deepening into the

24:29

sy with each other, like when's the last time you cried?

24:31

People feel more connected to each other, right,

24:33

it generates a lot of closeness. But we

24:36

found is that when someone was avoidantly attached,

24:38

that didn't happen. The voterability

24:41

did not create connection. And that's

24:43

another important thing to recognize. Sometimes

24:45

your vulnerability didn't land and it wasn't

24:48

necessarily because of your issue per se.

24:50

I mean, it could be right, we just talked about oversharing,

24:52

but it could also be because of someone else's baggage,

24:55

Like they're not really able to sit with

24:57

feelings like avoidingly attached people, they're not able

24:59

to sit with emotions. They're not

25:01

able to be open to connection

25:04

without feeling overburdened

25:07

or without feeling like people are putting all this pressure

25:09

on them and that comes from their path. So I think

25:11

it's also important to recognize sometimes

25:14

our vulnerability may not go right,

25:16

and that's not necessarily our

25:19

faults. What we can do in those moments is

25:21

observed, take note, and decide in the

25:23

future, I'm going to be vulnerable with someone

25:25

that does make me feel safe. Well that's

25:27

a great point, So tell me what you mean when

25:29

you say friendship is the underdog of

25:31

relationships. Yeah,

25:33

yeah, I mean that in so

25:36

many ways, our cultural messages

25:38

have focused around I'm

25:40

going to say romantic relationship because that's the

25:43

standard language for doubt, right, But we know you

25:45

know the complexities of that, right. You know,

25:47

people always ask you when are you're going to get

25:49

married? Right? When are you going to find the one? When are you gonna

25:51

find your soul? Many when you gonna find your person? When

25:54

we talk about friends, it's like we'll

25:56

say things like we're just friends, signifying

25:58

that, oh, if we're friends not involved sexually

26:01

romantically, then it's an inferior relationship,

26:03

or let's be more than friends, signifying

26:05

again that there's this hierarchy

26:07

that we have to relationships. And if

26:10

people decide to center their life around

26:12

friendship, it's single people. There's

26:14

a stigma attached to that. Right. While

26:16

marriage does improve well being, single

26:19

people who socialized

26:21

well, who are well socialized, who have a larger social

26:23

networks, are actually happier than the average

26:25

married person. And so I'm interested

26:28

in, i guess, disrupting this hierarchy

26:31

because I think it would allow all of us to be a little

26:33

bit more creative and ask ourselves, what

26:35

are the forms of connection that I do want in my life,

26:37

what makes me feel fulfilled, right,

26:39

instead of feeling this pressure to I'm gonna

26:41

get married to this person and we're gonna become very insular.

26:44

Right, it's just gonna be this nuclear unit. Right,

26:46

Like, we get these these strong cultural messages,

26:49

and they're so strong that they kind of

26:51

they fundamentally alter how we relate

26:53

to our friends, where I think we

26:56

see friendship as inferior and it becomes

26:58

a self fulfilling prophecy because as we're less

27:00

vulnerable, we invest less time, we're

27:02

less affirming, we're not as intentional

27:04

than we would be with a spouse. Inevitably,

27:07

that relationship is going to be inferior. It's not because friendship

27:09

is in fear. It's because you're treating that relationship

27:12

differently because you have this understanding.

27:14

And so I think, you know, in the society

27:16

where we are so so lonely, we just

27:18

can't afford to throw a morsel of connection

27:21

away. And I think so much, so often

27:24

we're just throwing friendship away. We're not being

27:26

intentional, we're not putting in the effort, we're not

27:28

making it a priority. And I think it would

27:30

benefit us all, especially from this very

27:32

disconnected state that we're in. If

27:34

we started to see friendship for the value that it

27:36

could really bring to our lives, well,

27:38

especially because you say that, you

27:41

know, friendship helps us figure out who we

27:43

are, so which

27:46

is you know, if you're saying

27:48

that friendship through your life is like the

27:50

building blocks of creating

27:52

your character, then you

27:55

know you should both have

27:59

great friendships and fail at

28:01

friendships, to have friendships that don't

28:04

go well or you know, break

28:06

up or you know, all those things

28:09

in order for you to figure out sort

28:11

of your own character, and ultimately, I

28:14

would say your adult attachment. Right,

28:16

yeah, yeah, yeah,

28:19

I do argue that, you know, I think there is this

28:21

intimate link between the self and how we form

28:23

friendships. And you know, our friends,

28:25

as they advertise different ways of being in the world

28:28

to us, show us who we could be, right,

28:30

show us all of the options that are available

28:32

to us for how we could be in this world.

28:34

And I think when we're just around one

28:36

person, we shrink. I mean

28:38

I felt this in the pandemic, being with a partner

28:41

at the time, that I

28:43

felt like my relationship with myself had

28:47

shrunk in some way. It was like my

28:49

my identity had sort of thinned out,

28:51

right, Like I had one experience of myself because

28:54

each person calls forth a different experience of

28:56

yourself. Right around this person, I'm

28:58

like this. I'm around this person, I'm like this, And

29:00

so just being around one person, it was it

29:02

was kind of like straight, straight jacketed

29:05

version of my own identity. And so

29:07

I think being around a community helps

29:09

us develop a more dimensional, a

29:12

richer sense of our own identities and our

29:14

own selves. And do you think

29:16

you know, just because of age and experience,

29:19

can you outgrow friendships? I

29:21

mean, you talk about creating new friendships

29:24

when you're an adult, absolutely, can you also

29:26

let go of friendships? Yeah? So

29:28

this is going to be the reality that even

29:31

if you are comfortable with your friendships

29:33

now, chances are there will be another time

29:35

in your life when you might have

29:37

to create friendships again. Um,

29:39

some people move, obviously that can be

29:41

disruptive for friendships. But another study just

29:44

found that every seven years we lose

29:46

about half our friends. Um, so

29:48

that just sort of means yeah a

29:52

lot. Yeah, that the

29:54

friends that we have now may not be

29:56

the friends we have seven years

29:58

from now, or so the have yet being the

30:00

longer that you've kept a friendship, the more likely it is

30:02

to keep going. And so the newer

30:04

friendships, the younger friendships are a lot more

30:07

likely to shed. And I think it is important

30:09

to realize first of all, that that's natural

30:11

and normal, right, because I think a lot of us

30:13

can feel shame around this.

30:15

You can feel very isolating, like here's this person

30:17

I thought would always be my person and they're

30:20

not anymore. But everybody's going

30:22

through this, not just you and

30:24

um. But also the other point that I want

30:26

to make is that your friendships will also

30:29

ebb and flow, and so there could be an

30:31

EBB period and if you don't assume

30:33

in that period that the friendship is over,

30:36

it's going to make it more likely to continue. There

30:38

is a study on long distance friends that

30:40

found that perceiving them as flexible and not

30:43

fragile, like oh, maybe we don't

30:45

talk for a few months, but I still assume that I could reach

30:47

out at any time, right, that that actually promotes

30:49

the friendship being maintained and

30:51

continuing. So I think that's

30:54

also important. There are two different issues,

30:56

like we have incompatibility, which

30:58

is contributing to our separation, and but

31:00

we also have normal EBB and flows

31:02

of relationships, and in those cases

31:04

when it's not driven by major

31:08

jarring incompatibilities, then we

31:10

can maintain hope for the friendship returning

31:12

at a later time in life when we both have the

31:14

availability for it. All Right, So

31:17

let's go through the different

31:19

steps of making a new friend

31:22

in our adulthood. Yeah, So

31:24

first I would tell you, Ali, I hope you

31:26

know that friendship and adulthood does not happen

31:29

organically, and if you

31:31

believe that, you're more likely to be lonely. So

31:33

I want you to know that you're going to have to try,

31:36

and you're going to have to put in an effort. Here's

31:39

what might be coming up for you. That sounds very

31:41

scary. I'm worried I'll be rejected.

31:44

Here's what I want to share with you. We're

31:46

less likely to be rejected than we think. When

31:48

strangers interact and they're asked how

31:51

much do you think the other person likes them,

31:53

their estimations tend to be inaccurate

31:56

and more negative than the truth. So this

31:58

is called the liking gap. Right, we

32:00

we erroneously think people

32:02

like us less than they actually do. Right.

32:05

The other thing that I'm going to say, to prepare your

32:07

mindset for going out there and interacting

32:09

is to assume people like you. Reason

32:12

being, this is a self fulfilling

32:14

prophecy called the acceptance prophecy.

32:16

The acceptance prophecy is the finding

32:19

that when researchers told people they

32:21

go into a group and be accepted

32:24

or liked based on their personality profile,

32:26

this was a lie, by the way, but they found

32:28

that people became warmer, open, and

32:31

friendlier, and they actually were

32:33

more likable. So I want you to start assuming

32:35

people like you, right, And now that

32:37

your mindset is right, I

32:40

think we can go two different avenues. One

32:42

reconnect with people from your past, because the research

32:45

finds first of all, that people appreciate

32:47

that reconnection text more than we assume,

32:50

but also that when we reconnect with people from

32:52

our past, we have more trust, so the relationship

32:54

moves more quickly. Okay, right, So is

32:56

there anyone you've fallen out of touch

32:58

with who you would have preferred to stay in touch with? Right?

33:01

Can you reach out to them? But the

33:03

next thing I tell you to do is

33:05

to pursue a hobby in community

33:07

with other people. The reason being

33:10

that when people are pursuing hobbies

33:12

and community they are, they tend to be more

33:14

open to friendship. Right. One of the reasons

33:16

that we tend to pursue these hobbies and community is

33:18

to meet people. It's like our covert way of saying, I

33:20

what friends. As I joined this kickball league

33:22

or this arn't class, right, I didn't do it alone for

33:25

a reason. And joining something that's repeated

33:27

over time, which is not not a

33:29

workshop, but uh, you know, a class

33:31

that's more repeated, you're going to capitalize

33:34

on something called the mere exposure effect,

33:36

our unconscious tendency to like people

33:39

who are more familiar. So when

33:41

these researchers planted women into

33:43

a psychology class, students

33:45

didn't remember any of the woman, but they like the woman

33:47

who showed up for the most classes about

33:50

more than the woman that didn't show up for any And

33:53

so what that tells us is that when

33:55

you first joined this group, it's going to be awkward. You're

33:57

not gonna trust, You're gonna feel weary as

34:00

refect has not set in. But as

34:02

you stay in this group for two to three months,

34:04

those feelings are going to change. They're gonna like

34:07

you more, You're going to like them more. Right.

34:09

I also suggest when you join

34:11

that group, you're overcoming something called overt

34:14

avoidance, which is our tendency to not

34:16

show up because we're scared. But you also

34:18

have to overcome covert avoidance, which

34:20

is our tendency to show up physically but

34:23

check out mentally. So I want to make sure

34:25

that when you get to that group, you're not just on

34:27

your phone, that you are actually introducing

34:29

yourself and saying, Hey, I'm Marissa,

34:31

it's great to meet you. How have you liked this hiking

34:34

group so far? Remember, you're assuming people like

34:36

you here, and then lastly, generating

34:38

exclusivity with someone in the group, finding

34:41

someone in the group who you like, asking

34:44

them to hang out outside of the group so you

34:46

have particular memories and experiences

34:48

with that person that you don't share with the rest

34:50

of the group. That is what builds friendship.

34:53

Yeah, I like to. I mean, I actually

34:55

have made a lot of new friends in my adulthood.

34:58

Um. And I've found also that the older

35:01

I get, I'm much bolder about pursuing

35:04

friendships than I was when I was young.

35:06

You know. Now I'm just like I got nothing to lose, you

35:08

know what I mean? Like what And I also

35:10

find that what you said before earlier,

35:12

they people are more receptive.

35:15

Like you think you're going to reach out and they're

35:17

gonna be like, what is this fucking stalker

35:19

doing, you know, but yet they're like, I would love

35:21

to go for a walk, you know. I love to

35:24

like I'm always surprised when I'm

35:26

received that way, you know, because

35:29

you're you're always, you know, kind of your fourth

35:31

grade self, no matter how old you are,

35:33

when you're sort of reaching out and making a friend

35:38

and it's time for a short break.

35:48

Welcome back to go ask Alli. You

35:52

talk about intentional generosity,

35:54

which is something that I've tried to always

35:58

feed and water in myself. Um,

36:01

and one kind of friend I like to be is a

36:03

creative friend. So I make my own sort

36:05

of holiday cards. I love to bake people's

36:08

birthday cakes. I love. I have found that

36:10

it has given me immense

36:13

pleasure to be an

36:15

intentional, intentionally

36:18

generous friend. I guess you would phrase it that

36:20

is really lovely. And um,

36:23

I think what we're really getting at here is

36:25

something called the theory

36:27

of inferred attraction, which is the

36:29

idea that people like people that they think like

36:31

them. So anything that you

36:34

do that shows people I care about

36:36

you, You matter to me, You're important.

36:38

Those are going to generate friendship. And I think

36:41

for me when I was younger, I have this misconception

36:44

that to make friends I have to

36:46

be entertaining. I have to be

36:48

insightful, I have to say something

36:50

funny all the time, right, And

36:53

in fact, people report this entertaining piece

36:55

being the least important value they look for in friendship.

36:57

You, I'm screwed. Well,

37:00

you do do the most important thing, which is making

37:02

people feel like they matter, especial

37:05

people want. It's called ego support. And

37:07

you know, I think humor can be a way into that right of

37:10

making people feel like they matter. And so the

37:12

more I think when we feel really insecure about

37:15

belonging, we get into this place

37:17

that's a little bit self centered because we're in pain.

37:20

I think pain is inherently self centered. We don't have the

37:22

resources to think of other other people. Where

37:24

we think have they reached out to me?

37:26

Have they welcomed me? Have they initiated

37:28

with me? Whereas people who are really good

37:30

at friendship, they think a lot more about what

37:32

they have they done for others? Have I made

37:35

them feel welcome? Have I initiated with

37:37

them? Have I made them feel cared for?

37:39

Right? And they don't expect that people are

37:41

going to invest in them if they see

37:44

themselves aren't haven't been accountable for that same

37:46

level investment. So I think sometimes

37:48

we need to gently, kindly empathically

37:51

check ourselves. Right, if our friendships aren't working

37:53

out? What have I done to make

37:55

other people feel loved and valued?

37:58

Right? Rather than what have people done for

38:00

me to make me feel loved and value?

38:02

Because it starts with I'm making them

38:04

feel loved and then it tends to be a sort of

38:06

more reciprocal cycle. How

38:09

do you feel about the term best friend?

38:11

Like, when you're young, it it's territorial,

38:14

and but when you get older, I've

38:16

noticed that women my age

38:19

have a very strong reaction to the term best

38:21

friend. You know, I think we need quality,

38:24

deep intimate connections. Whether

38:26

that has to include the label best friend or not.

38:29

I don't think it's completely necessary, but I

38:31

will say the value of it is

38:33

that friendship is so freaking ambiguous.

38:35

We don't know what we can expect from our friends. We don't

38:37

know how invested they are with us. There's no

38:39

formal ceremony right, set of expectations

38:42

that come with being a friend, and friend

38:44

can be anywhere from someone who's nearly an acquaintance

38:46

that you met for coffee once. I mean, Facebook

38:48

further diluted our perception

38:50

of what it means to be a friend. And so we're

38:52

all working from such different definitions,

38:55

which means we all have different expectations

38:57

from each other that come out of these different

38:59

definite and those different

39:01

expectations is what part of what can create

39:03

problems in friendship. Right, So what

39:05

I like about best Friend is that it clarifies

39:08

some of those expectations. It says,

39:11

Okay, we are going to make each

39:13

other a priority. Maybe we are gonna

39:15

gauge in mutual support seeking. When I have

39:17

a need, I know I can feel comfortable reaching

39:19

out to you. That allows us to kind of calibrate

39:22

our expectations of each other a little bit. Yeah,

39:25

I think that. Yeah, I also think um.

39:27

I did this interpersonal exercise

39:30

and what was kind of interesting about it was

39:32

to see how much time we

39:34

give the toxic people as

39:37

compared to a lot of the people that

39:39

are so close to us. Wow,

39:42

there's as much air time for these people that

39:44

make me feel bad as this circle around

39:46

me, and it it actually seeing

39:48

it visually made me kind of readjust

39:52

you know, my my own landscape of friendship

39:54

in general. Yeah,

39:57

I think two things in relation to that. I

39:59

don't know which is often kind of passive in

40:01

friendships, not necessarily discerning.

40:04

Um. You know, this is what I've realized to having

40:06

a large network of friends, I begin to ask myself,

40:08

who do I want to invest in more deeply? Right,

40:11

it can't be that whoever reaches out to me I'm going

40:13

to go along with, because then I'm not able

40:15

to cultivate and curate my friendships in the ways

40:17

that I want. Right, And so that

40:20

I think is very often occurrence that we

40:22

hang out with people who it's easiest to rather

40:24

than who we want to go deeper with. Um.

40:27

And so that requires some discernment. But

40:29

I also say for anxiously attached

40:31

people, there are many

40:34

different stress mechanisms that

40:36

we might use fight flight, freeze,

40:38

but also fawn. Fawn

40:41

is if someone is threatening to me, I

40:43

try to get them to like me, and

40:46

anxiously attached people tend to experience

40:49

this more so. They actually

40:51

are attracted to people that are

40:53

less engaged with them, that like them less

40:55

because oh this triggers my fond

40:58

response. So now I'm going to engage more and try

41:00

to hang out with them more and try to get them to like me

41:02

right. And that's part of the template of the anxiously

41:04

attached that I am going to have to earn

41:07

love right. Anxiously attached people can

41:09

sometimes feel like someone just likes me.

41:11

What do they know? What do they know? This

41:13

is weird? You know, it's suspicious almost

41:16

right, Whereas securely attached people,

41:18

if someone makes them feel bad, they

41:21

walk away instead of working harder. So

41:23

our attachment style could play into that as well.

41:26

I mean, I wonder if sometimes it's very

41:28

simplistic, But one thing I say

41:30

to my daughters when it comes to friendship is

41:33

find the people that make you feel good. M

41:36

exactly. Yes. I also

41:38

think that when I'm

41:42

I want to not go to

41:45

assisted living. I actually want

41:47

to get a house and live

41:49

with my girlfriends because I think

41:52

I'll be happier. I truly

41:54

believe this. I'll be happier and I'll live longer

41:57

if I already create a community

42:00

um of people that make me feel

42:02

good. Now, I love that,

42:04

and I just love thinking more creatively about

42:07

the potential of friendship. There's been more

42:09

talk about people who physically

42:11

in gen z choosing friends as life partners,

42:14

right, and um, just

42:16

being a lot more creative around what we think friendship

42:18

can do. Because, aside from sex, most

42:21

of the things that you might look for from a spouse

42:23

you can also look for from a friend. There's really no

42:25

reason not to, aside from

42:27

like a lack of creativity. Right, So what sort

42:29

of life do you want to live? What sort of connections do you want

42:32

to have? What feels good for you rather than what

42:34

is the script for how we are supposed to live? Right,

42:36

I think that is just going to fundamentally allow

42:39

for our needs to be met and for us to feel so

42:41

much better. And so I think that just

42:44

requires us to see friendship

42:46

so much more expansively

42:49

and and richly than how we have

42:52

historically seen it. Yes, and I

42:54

inspiration is one of my criteria

42:57

for friendship. And so

42:59

I guess we're going to be friends, Merissa, because you

43:01

really inspired me on this podcast.

43:03

Thank you so,

43:08

Marissa. In the spirit of friendship,

43:10

it is now your turn to ask me a question

43:13

about anything. I love this

43:15

to the tables him turn. Yeah, you

43:17

know, also a psychologists I'm always wanted to ask

43:20

questions. You could listen, you can go deep if

43:22

you want. I'm ready, thank you. I

43:25

am wondering what's something that you learned

43:27

about friendship that you didn't understand

43:30

ten years ago. I

43:32

ten years ago, I didn't understand

43:35

my worth in a friendship,

43:38

meaning I I always

43:41

felt so lucky that this

43:43

person was my friend, and

43:46

I didn't look at it like, well, they're

43:48

lucky that I'm their friend, you know what I

43:50

mean. I didn't see it as an

43:52

equal relationship. Um,

43:56

And I think it caused me a lot of pain,

43:58

and I think it caused me to make bad

44:02

decisions about who I

44:04

spent my time with and who I

44:06

did all those creative things for.

44:09

Because I find in friendship

44:12

when you are one

44:15

of my quote unquote people, I

44:17

am an endless well of love. I

44:21

love to do things for my friends.

44:23

It makes me so happy the way it does, you know,

44:25

when I do things for my daughters and

44:28

so they because some of them

44:30

became so one sided that

44:32

I had to move away

44:34

from them, And it was

44:36

usually somebody else saying like, why are

44:39

you friends with that person? They don't treat

44:41

you well, they don't, they don't call

44:43

you on your birthday, you know, And so I started to

44:45

realize, oh wait a second, where am I

44:47

in all this? Whereas

44:49

now I'm very good at that. And I

44:51

also reach out to new friendships

44:54

the way we talked about with

44:56

somebody that I can already

44:58

tell through just through experience

45:01

and living life. Oh, this is a person

45:03

I can tell who will be

45:05

reciprocal and open and vulnerable

45:08

with me. I

45:11

love that, Ali, I'm so proud of you.

45:14

I don't know if I can ask questions, but

45:17

you can. I mean, as he'll turn into a therapy

45:20

at this session and he'll be like, oh my god, Okay,

45:22

what a quick question. Yes psychologists,

45:27

Yes, yes, like having sense of self

45:29

worth so important for our friendships because

45:32

we have to take risks in friendship, like reaching out to someone.

45:34

Right. If we don't feel worthy, we're not going to want to take those

45:36

risks because we think people don't want to hear from us. Right. My

45:38

follow up question is how

45:41

did you develop that sense

45:43

of worth in yourself? How did

45:45

I develop the sense of worth? I think it

45:47

was a few things. I think it was almost

45:50

like sexual

45:52

relationships in the past, you

45:54

know, of being heard a bunch of times

45:56

of trying different types of people. I

45:58

think the same can be said about friendship.

46:01

There are certain types of people

46:03

that I just

46:06

could innately like

46:08

just feel on a

46:10

visceral level. Oh, I know what

46:13

type of person that is, and I sort of

46:15

get a sense of how they are as a

46:17

friend. I also think that there are

46:19

certain things that I am attracted

46:22

to and friends. There's a bunch of things that

46:24

I learned, and I think I learned

46:26

it by befriending all

46:28

different types of people. And I feel like now

46:30

in my fifties, I had the greatest

46:33

group of female friends,

46:35

more so than I did when I was forty

46:38

year thirty like, and a few

46:40

of them are are from many many

46:42

years that we just sort of live life

46:44

together, I guess, as the kids call

46:46

it, ride or die, and I still seek

46:48

new friends out. Yeah, I

46:51

really like your answer, because, um,

46:53

we develop our sense of self not in isolation

46:56

from people, but when we experience

46:58

loving people. That are if we begin to

47:00

feel more worthy. Right. Oh,

47:03

absolutely, absolutely, Okay

47:05

asked that with the foul up questions. Though I could ask

47:07

more, I know you could, I'd be I'd be

47:09

in therapy for the next four days. Thank

47:12

you so much. This was so Your book

47:14

is so great and insightful, and

47:16

I did get two copies for my daughters,

47:19

and I think everyone should read it because I think

47:21

we tend to focus more on

47:23

the sexual relationships

47:25

more than our romantic friendships.

47:28

And they exactly and they are like oxygen

47:31

and food and water. We need them.

47:33

So thank you so much, thank you so much,

47:39

thank you for listening to go ask Ali now

47:42

Dr Marissa Franco's book Platonic,

47:44

How the Science of Attachment can help you make and keep

47:46

friends. I gave you but a

47:49

sliver of the book that it is

47:51

so full of interesting insights

47:53

and information. So do yourself

47:56

a favor and get the book. Because my

47:58

producer Brook would not let me do a four

48:01

hour podcast, but I could have now.

48:03

If you would like to follow Dr Marissa, she

48:06

is on Instagram at Dr Marissa

48:08

g Franco and her website Dr

48:11

Marissa g Franco dot com, and you

48:13

can take a quiz to assess your strengths

48:15

and weaknesses as a friend. If

48:17

you'd like more info on what you heard in this episode,

48:20

check out our show notes and be sure to subscribe,

48:22

rate and review the podcast, and follow

48:24

me on Instagram at the Real Ali wentworth Now.

48:27

If you'd like to ask me a question or suggest

48:29

a guest or a topic to dig into, I'd love

48:31

to hear from you, and there's a bunch of ways you can do

48:33

it. You can call or text me up three to three

48:36

three six four six three six,

48:39

or you can email a voice memo right

48:41

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48:43

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48:45

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48:47

Alli. Yeah,

48:56

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