0:01

Welcome to Go, Ask Alli, a production

0:03

of Shonda Land Audio and partnership with iHeartRadio.

0:07

I think, like Gyorginas have a lot to say.

0:09

I think we should let them speak out of it and they'll

0:11

just talk. Yes, one of

0:13

the hardest things to absorb for those who

0:15

are new to these kinds of fights. Again, if

0:18

we want all of them, we wouldn't be here.

0:20

If you see a monster, don't

0:23

try to run away, step right up

0:25

to it and say what do you have to teach me?

0:27

Why are you? In my mind, I want to be the person

0:29

who has cancer and doesn't run a marathon,

0:32

Like, do I have to work that hard? No, it's

0:34

the best excuse not to run a marathon.

0:42

Welcome to Go, ask Alli. I'm Allie Wentworth.

0:44

So we've all heard the word narcissist

0:46

being thrown around. He's a narcissist,

0:48

she's a narcissist. But what exactly

0:51

is a narcissist? And how

0:53

do we spot a narcissist in our life

0:55

and how do we get them the hell out of

0:58

it? There is no better

1:00

a person to talk to about this than doctor

1:02

Craig malcol He's a clinical psychologist,

1:05

author and lecturer for Harvard Medical

1:07

School. His internationally acclaimed

1:09

book, Rethinking Narcissism, The Secret

1:12

to Recognizing and Coping With Narcissists,

1:14

has been translated into twelve languages.

1:17

That's how many narcissists there are in the world.

1:20

In February this year, Rethinking Narcissism

1:22

was named by Oprah Daily as the best

1:24

book to read if you have a narcissist

1:26

in your life. One hundred percent chance

1:29

you do. His articles, advice

1:31

and insights on relationships have appeared

1:33

internationally in outlets like Time Magazine,

1:35

NPR, and the Oprah Winfrey

1:37

Network. Doctor Malkin is President

1:39

and Director of y M Psychotherapy

1:41

and Consultation in Cambridge.

1:48

Well, doctor Malkin, are you

1:50

a narcissist? I'm just curious how

1:52

you got involved in researching

1:55

narcissism. Are you

1:57

a recovering narcissist? I should ask. I'm

1:59

actually covering echoist, which is

2:01

a whole other topic that

2:04

is related to narcissism. What's

2:06

an echoist? So if

2:09

you think of narcissism along

2:11

a spectrum, and you really should, because

2:14

study after study, decades of research show

2:16

that it's really best to think of narcissism

2:19

as pervasive universal trait that

2:21

exists to some extent in all of us, to

2:24

a greater or lesser degree. I

2:27

think of as the drive to feel special,

2:31

and we can talk about why. I think that captures

2:33

all forms of narcissism. But

2:35

you think of that drive to feel special along a spectrum.

2:38

Imagine it from zero to

2:40

ten. A lot of times people start at

2:43

some narcissism bad

2:45

and then all the way up to a lot of narcissism

2:48

really bad. But what we've learned

2:50

from the research is a little of that drive

2:52

is helpful. And if you have none

2:54

of it, if you have what's

2:56

called a failure to self enhance,

3:00

that is what I describe as echoism.

3:03

And the term echoism comes from the

3:05

myth of narcissists. In echo, Narcissus

3:08

is the vain Greek youth who fell in love with his reflection.

3:11

Echo is the nymph who was cursed

3:13

to repeat the last few words

3:15

she heard. She had no voice of her own, and

3:18

she fell in love with Narcissus.

3:20

And I like to think

3:22

of echoism along those lines.

3:25

These are people who, because of their experiences,

3:27

have no drive to feel special or very little,

3:30

fail to self enhance, and they intend

3:32

to have fall into relationships with extremely

3:34

narcissistic friends and partners, not always

3:37

a lot of time, and that pretty much

3:39

describe my dating life right for most

3:42

of my early adulthood. Interesting. Yeah,

3:44

yeah, you've just described a lot of people. I

3:46

know, a lot of women. I know. All

3:49

right, So let's dive right into narcissism

3:51

because I think that and I'm sure

3:53

you've dealt with this A lot people

3:55

get confused with exactly what narcissism

3:58

is, and we

4:01

need to be very clear because I feel like the word

4:03

is thrown out so casually

4:05

all the time. So how would you, doctor

4:09

Melkin? How would you define narcissism

4:13

we've just discussed. I think the starting

4:15

point is the drive to feel special,

4:18

exceptional, or unique compared to

4:20

the other eight billion people nearly eight

4:22

billion people on the planet. Is it the

4:24

drive or do you feel those

4:27

things? It's both. It's

4:30

both. The reason it's both is

4:32

because the drive is there, that is, the

4:34

intense engagement in

4:36

experiences in a relationship

4:39

in a way that's expressly

4:41

geared to maintain this sense

4:44

of feeling special. But people will struggle

4:46

with narcissism, particularly in the extreme,

4:49

don't always feel special. They're

4:51

driven to create experiences that they

4:53

can have that feeling, but it doesn't always stick and

4:55

they don't always feel that way, So I would

4:57

say it's both. There are three

5:00

terms for a narcissist. Correct, correct?

5:02

Can you tell me what these three terms are? Sure,

5:05

so you think of the drives you feel special

5:07

as the heart of narcissism. There's lots

5:09

of ways to feel special, but to date

5:12

they come down to three that we've identified

5:14

in the research. The first

5:16

is extroverted narcissism,

5:19

also called overt or

5:22

grandiose or obvious. Really

5:26

it's that loud, outgoing

5:28

brand of narcissism.

5:31

The second type is introverted when

5:33

people were more inward and reflective and

5:36

less outgoing. Doesn't

5:39

mean they don't have any aspect of that. So

5:41

that's more introverted or vulnerable or

5:44

covert. And these are

5:46

people who agree in self report with

5:48

questions like no one

5:50

understands my problems. A few

5:52

people have suffered as much as me, so

5:55

you get the idea the flavor of it, which

5:57

is with overt narcissism, the grandi

6:00

is obvious and the insecurity

6:02

is hidden. In covert narcissism,

6:05

the insecurity is obvious, shy,

6:08

anxious, withdrawn, self doubting,

6:11

low self esteem. The grandiosity

6:14

is on the inside or hidden, hence covert.

6:17

And then there's a third brand of narcissism

6:19

that we've identified recently in the research, which

6:21

is communal narcissism.

6:23

And communal narcissists agree with statements

6:26

like I'm the most helpful person I know and

6:31

it always makes me laugh without fail.

6:34

So I'm the most helpful person I

6:36

know, and one day I'll be known for my

6:38

good deeds. So these are people feel

6:40

special by virtue of their helpfulness

6:43

or their altruism. As you might expect,

6:46

their belief in their altruism and helpfulness

6:49

isn't necessarily correlated with their actual

6:51

altruism or helpfulness, but that's

6:53

how they feel special. So those

6:55

are the three types. And so are

6:57

you born a narcissist? How do you acquire

7:00

narcissistic traits? You know it?

7:02

Like most answers in psychology

7:05

and development and personality, the

7:07

answer is it's really

7:10

best understood as a combination

7:12

of genetics or temperament and environment.

7:15

We know from a

7:18

terrific longitudinal study

7:21

by a psychologist named Phoebe Kramer,

7:24

where she traced people over time

7:26

for twenty one years. She

7:29

used data that had been around to

7:31

track patterns of behavior, and

7:33

one measure was early precursors

7:35

for narcissism in

7:39

preschoolers, like

7:41

being melodramatic, being

7:44

impulsive, always wanted to be the center of

7:46

attention, being aggressive. These were signs

7:48

as early as age or four or five that

7:50

she discovered predict

7:53

later on unhealthier pathological

7:55

narcissism unless

7:59

those kids had a kind of

8:01

parenting called authoritative parenting,

8:04

which you want to think of as a combination warmth

8:06

and structure. It's kind of what it sounds like.

8:09

They set limits, they have boundaries, but they're carrying,

8:11

they're connected, they're empathic with their kids.

8:14

And if those little

8:16

sort of obnoxious tikes had

8:18

that experience over

8:21

time, they didn't grow up

8:23

to be extremely narcissistic, they didn't

8:25

show unhealthy narcissism. So, combined

8:28

with genetic studies that also

8:31

show what we call in the research

8:33

a concordance rate, where you look at twins

8:36

and if one twins particularly

8:38

separated at birth, but they're identical

8:41

twins and they're separated, if one has

8:43

narcissism does the other, there's

8:45

a high concordance rate. So that also

8:47

suggests there's genetics or temperament involved,

8:50

but we know that's not enough because

8:53

kids need a particular experience that

8:55

leaves them insecure in

8:57

a very specific way that

9:00

also causes them to develop unhealthy

9:03

narcissism over time. So if

9:05

you had a narcissistic toddler

9:07

and you're not an authoritative parent,

9:10

let's say you're a free range parent, chances

9:13

are that narcissism would

9:15

grow absolutely,

9:18

particularly because that

9:20

kind of unhelpful

9:22

free range parenting that you're talking about is

9:25

often called permissive parenting, and

9:27

it's not simply hands off.

9:29

It's not just lais a fair. Parents

9:32

who slip into that kind of permissive

9:34

parenting are also not really paying

9:36

close attention to what's going on with their kids.

9:39

And so you take a kid with this kind of earth

9:42

and we're talking a particular kind of narcissism,

9:44

I should mention right when it's outgoing,

9:48

when it's aggressive, that one

9:50

tends to develop along

9:52

these lines, particularly

9:54

when kids don't have limits and boundaries.

9:57

And if you take a kid with that temperament and put

9:59

an an environment where the parents

10:02

just kind of asleep at the switch in all

10:04

kinds of ways, not just in boundaries

10:06

and limits, but more

10:08

importantly emotional

10:11

intwuments. Are they paying

10:13

attention to when their kid is sad or scared

10:15

or lonely or blue. They're not paying attention

10:18

to other things like obnoxious behavior.

10:20

They're not paying attention to that either. That

10:22

is a recipe for unhealthy narcissism.

10:25

So is it a leap to say that narcissistic

10:28

toddlers, when not having

10:30

a strong connection to their parents, become

10:32

bullies in high school. No,

10:36

it's not a leap at all. The core of

10:38

the problem there this brand

10:40

of narcissism which is extroverted.

10:43

It's the loud, brash, as

10:45

I say, narcissists we all know and loathe, right,

10:48

we all recognize that. And

10:50

what drives that most

10:52

powerfully is aggression, which is also

10:55

wired in. We also come into

10:57

the world with that biological equipment, taking

10:59

kid with that kind of aggression and give

11:01

them an experience where

11:04

they're not taught to consider others,

11:08

where they have, say an authoritarian

11:10

or bullying parent themselves, or

11:12

parent who doesn't really help them think about other people

11:15

in these the kind of empathic way that we're talking

11:17

about. Authoritative parenting Yeah, they're going

11:19

to become a bully. Sure, and you

11:21

just hope they don't become president one day.

11:23

Correct. Yes, that's

11:26

an interesting topic. Of course, most presidents

11:28

they're narcissists, yes, yeah, but

11:31

there I would imagine different levels

11:33

of narcissism that works in their favor,

11:35

and then there's those that work again

11:38

correct, Yes, yeah,

11:41

I think you have to be somewhat of a narcissist who

11:43

want to be president of the United States, and

11:45

that is that is confirmed by research.

11:47

There's a couple of researchers, James de Luga,

11:49

another one Scott leland Field Lelandfeld

11:52

excuse me, who took

11:55

measures of narcissism, of which we have many,

11:58

and took one of the most popular. And you can take

12:01

a measure like that, and you can ask expert people

12:04

to rate someone on

12:06

that scale, and both these studies

12:08

did that and not surprisingly, look at presence

12:10

over time and looking at their behaviors, and there's

12:13

plenty of biographical historical

12:15

data for this. Most of

12:17

them scored high enough on these measures

12:19

to be called narcissists. That

12:21

doesn't mean disorder, which is your point.

12:24

It means they had the drive to get them

12:26

to that place. Exactly and a high enough

12:28

drive that it's well above average compared

12:30

to other people. But we know from the

12:32

research too, is there's healthy

12:34

and unhealthy aspects of narcissism

12:37

and expressions of it, and they don't rise

12:39

and fall in perfect step with one another. So

12:41

you can be high enough on the narcissism scale

12:43

to agree with statements like I'm a natural

12:46

born leader, which you hope and somebody

12:48

who wants to lead a country, for

12:50

example, but not score

12:52

high on measures. I

12:55

won't stop until I get the respect.

12:57

That's doom and I like to look in mirrors.

12:59

Right right, I will be the fascist

13:02

dictator of a democratic country. People

13:07

with narcissistic personality disorder,

13:09

which we should probably define, are so

13:11

addicted to that

13:14

that need to feel special, so driven

13:16

by it that they demonstrate what I call

13:19

triple E, which is the core of pathological

13:21

narcissism. Exploitation, which

13:26

is doing whatever it takes to feel

13:28

special no matter the cost to others. Entitlement,

13:32

which is acting as though the world should bend

13:34

to our will because we're

13:36

so special, and empathy

13:38

impairments exactly what it sounds like, becoming

13:40

so blind in the needs and feelings of others

13:43

because of our drive to feel special that

13:45

we have to maintain that at all

13:47

costs. We can't see what's going on with other people.

13:49

And triple E accounts for all

13:51

the most destructive, dangerous behaviors

13:54

that you see in narcissistic personality

13:56

disorder. Okay, so

13:59

let me jump First of all, did

14:01

you know your mother was a narcissist when you were a

14:03

kid? I didn't. But

14:05

circling back to your question, this is what got me into

14:07

it, and I didn't know. There

14:09

are no words for this anyway, to kind of think

14:11

of myself as an echoist. And these

14:14

things came later for me in my own

14:16

thinking and research as well. But

14:18

when I was younger, I

14:22

had of Dara say, had a special

14:24

connection with my mother. I mean, I knew

14:26

her to be kind and caring and supportive.

14:28

Looking back, there were red flags

14:30

of her narcissism. Can

14:33

you tell me what those were? That

14:35

our relationship was really organized

14:37

around me being a consummate caretaker.

14:40

So she, for example, had migraines.

14:44

I think she had migraines. I

14:46

don't know now. All

14:48

I know is she locked herself in her room,

14:51

isolated herself, and seemed to

14:53

be in pain and needed special attention.

14:55

You see where this goes. This is what looking

14:57

back, I think of as a

14:59

red flag. Just wanted many but

15:02

she often called me,

15:04

you know, her little helper, her

15:08

little doctor, in terms

15:10

like this to really valorize

15:13

and reinforce

15:16

how great I was it attending to her.

15:20

At at the same time, she could be caring

15:22

with me, and she was often warm.

15:24

I wouldn't say she was the best listener. Again, another

15:27

red flag. It was only when

15:29

I later started learning

15:32

about narcissism an undergraduate that

15:35

I saw a description of narcissistic

15:38

personality disorder in a book, and

15:40

by then I'm a young adult and

15:44

it fit her so well. And that was

15:46

stuck with this paradox of

15:50

this stark contrasts between

15:53

the mother I knew as a child and

15:55

the mother that I knew as an adult, And

15:57

how do I reconcile those Well, it sounds

16:00

like you had a narcissistic mother,

16:02

But it sounds like what you said up

16:04

top of the podcast you were echoing,

16:07

and so you were probably in relationships

16:10

where you participated in

16:13

some form of what you were like as a child

16:15

with a narcissistic partner. Oh spot

16:17

on Allie, I'm

16:21

not a professional, but those

16:23

are the connections I would make. There's

16:27

a lot more to come after the short break and

16:36

we're back. So

16:39

the majority of my listeners are

16:41

women and younger

16:44

women, even older women that are already

16:47

in a relationship, maybe pursuing a relationship.

16:49

What are some of the things they can look

16:51

for when it comes to narcissism.

16:54

I'm sure you've come across this as yourself.

16:56

Most of the sort of

16:58

signs that people list the

17:01

warning signs, they're really things

17:04

that tend into abuse, gas

17:07

lighting, put downs, and

17:11

those are behaviors that often come later. Most

17:14

people are trying to put their best foot forward

17:16

in a relationship, including people

17:18

who are extremely narcissistic. So those are not

17:20

the ones I focus on. Really,

17:23

they all come down to what

17:25

I call the vulnerability dodge,

17:28

and what I mean by that is the

17:30

more narcissistic someone is, the more

17:33

they have that particular form of insecurity

17:35

I mentioned earlier called

17:37

attachment insecurity, And

17:40

what attachment insecurity is is it means

17:43

that this is a person doesn't trust

17:45

themselves in other people's hands emotionally when

17:48

they're sad, scared, lonely blue, when they have

17:50

vulnerable emotions. In particular, they

17:52

don't trust that they can turn to a

17:55

special person or persons with that for mutual

17:57

care and comfort. That is attachment

18:00

security and extreme

18:02

narcissism is a way of coping

18:04

with that. And one of the ways

18:06

narcissists cope with it is they avoid

18:08

vulnerable states. If I don't go

18:11

into those vulnerable feelings, if I stay away

18:13

from them, if I don't feel them, if I don't share them,

18:15

I'm not going to risk being hurt. Nothing

18:17

bad is going to happen to me. So

18:19

you see these things early on. Subtle

18:23

signs like one

18:25

of them I call emotion phobia,

18:28

and a lot of people are phobic when it comes to

18:30

emotion, but this is a particular brand that happens

18:32

with all forms of narcissism,

18:35

where say, for example, you're

18:37

chatting with your date and

18:40

you know, you're talking to them about

18:43

an experience that you've had, say

18:46

you went through difficulty at work, and

18:48

you're feeling sad and you're feeling hopeless, you're

18:50

feeling upset, and you're just trying

18:52

to share a little bit about that, and they

18:54

say to you, oh, gosh,

18:56

I can't say I've ever felt that way. I

18:59

try to look on the bright side of things. Now.

19:02

A lot of people make a mistake like that, but

19:04

delivered in that way. That is particular

19:06

combination of where they're not only trying

19:08

to stay away from any vulnerable feelings in you, but

19:11

in themselves and at the same

19:13

time self enhance. I

19:15

would never feel that way. What's wrong

19:18

with you? That's the message, right, that's

19:20

weird who would feel that way?

19:23

And as a matter of fact, I feel

19:25

the opposite. It's strange that you would

19:27

feel otherwise. That's a good example. You're

19:29

weak, that's the implication, and it can

19:31

be subtle. I may have played it up more

19:34

than I should have, but everybody runs into

19:36

this from time to time. And when it's that

19:38

combination of staying away from any kind of vulnerability

19:40

and self enhancing, trying to feel

19:43

special or on top of experience

19:45

or better at emotions than you

19:47

are. Right, that's a sign of narcissism.

19:50

Yeah, I would assume that narcissists

19:52

in a relationship, if they've started

19:54

a relationship and the

19:56

person they're having a relationship with maybe

19:59

they're going through hard time, which makes them

20:01

vulnerable and emotional. A lot the narcissist

20:03

would leave. That's a great

20:06

segue. Sometimes.

20:09

Remember there is a brand of narcissism

20:12

introverted or vulnerable or covert,

20:15

and these are people who feel special except

20:17

for unique by virtue of their suffering. Right,

20:20

I'm no one's more misunderstood

20:23

than me. No one has been passed

20:25

over for promotions more often than me, all

20:28

right, And in the beginning of a relationship,

20:30

they're going to put their best foot forward as well.

20:33

And what that means is they might

20:35

join you in that vulnerability and you

20:37

might not catch early on that

20:39

it doesn't feel fully authentic, that

20:42

it doesn't feel fully mutual, more

20:45

along the lines of, oh I've been through that too,

20:48

And you may not catch the lack of mutuality.

20:51

But they wouldn't necessarily leave. They'll stay

20:54

around long enough if they're extremely

20:56

narcissistic in this covert way,

20:59

to show you that you don't understand how much and

21:01

they've suffered. That's where

21:03

it will trend eventually. So

21:05

what this would look like in the interaction is they

21:08

might join you early on and talking about oh,

21:10

yeah, I've been through that too, and I remember

21:12

this one time, and very quickly you realize

21:14

that they're talking about their suffering, and you're

21:17

not sharing yours at all anymore, right,

21:19

and it must feel like sort of a fake

21:21

attachment, which is the opposite of that

21:24

right before. So exactly, let's

21:26

fast forward and somebody is

21:28

now married to a narcissist, let's

21:32

say an extreme narcissist. Is

21:35

there any advice you can give them if they

21:37

need to stay in the marriage. So

21:40

we might need to break this in parts. I have a

21:42

lot to say about it. Yeah,

21:44

good step one. And this is true

21:46

of any relationship experience

21:48

you have. I put the emphasis

21:50

on safety. And not all

21:53

extremely narcissistic people are

21:55

abusive, but many

21:57

are. It correlates.

22:00

Actually, I mentioned that aggressive

22:02

drive. The more aggressive

22:05

drive somebody has, the more

22:07

likely they are to show that really outgoing,

22:09

loud bullying kind of narcissism,

22:12

which is not the covert of vulnerable kind

22:14

that doesn't come out in that way.

22:17

And those types of

22:19

narcissists are more likely to

22:21

exhibit overt aggression

22:24

as well, which could be

22:26

in physical abuse, it could be like an

22:28

onslaught of emotional abuse. So

22:31

I always always talk to people about the three

22:33

stop signs first for any

22:35

relationship. All

22:38

kinds of things drive abuse. Not just

22:40

narcissism, but if you hear put downs as the

22:42

person is trying to control

22:44

you financially, if they're gas lighting

22:47

you, right, if they're trying to say and do things

22:49

to make you feel like you're crazy when you're just trying

22:51

to report events as they happened,

22:54

Like I saw you look at your phone. Oh no, you're

22:56

imagining things that kind of thing. This is

22:58

gaslighting. If you see

23:00

that kind of abuse, that's one of the stop signs.

23:03

Another stop sign is denial. I've

23:06

talked to people about this a lot too. Just in the same

23:08

way, if you have a partner who has substance abuse

23:10

problem, if they're addicted to alcohol

23:13

or if they're addicted to opiates

23:16

and they can't acknowledge that

23:19

there's any problem at all, they're not going to get better.

23:22

So now imagine somebody who's extremely narcissistic,

23:25

where their whole problem

23:27

is they can't allow mutuality in a relationship.

23:30

You know that they're drive to feel special overtakes

23:32

everything, all right. If you imagine

23:35

that situation of somebody who can't eignet a knowledge

23:37

they struggle in any way, and it's not going to get

23:39

better. It's going to get really bad,

23:41

and in fact, in the research, denial is a

23:43

horrible predictor, meaning it predicts horrible

23:46

things down the line. It often

23:48

only gets worse. And then the third

23:50

stop sign is psychopathy. Psychopathy

23:53

and narcissism are related. Psychopathy it's another

23:55

trait like narcissism, but

23:58

unlike narcissism, where people and at

24:00

their worst have blocks in empathy

24:02

impairments. Their empathy might come

24:04

and go if they're motivated. Just as

24:06

we were talking about early on in a relationship, you

24:09

might see flashes of empathy.

24:11

With a psychopath, it's all

24:13

show and

24:15

they feel almost wired in a

24:18

lack of remorse or guilt. So

24:20

this is somebody who you catch them in a

24:22

lie and they don't flinch, and

24:26

they show no remorse and they show no guilt. We've

24:28

gone beyond narcissism to psychopathy

24:31

at that point, and again, to me, that's

24:33

another one of those stop signs that's not going to work

24:35

in a relationship. You know,

24:37

I have an example I want to give just because

24:40

there's something that I witnessed

24:42

in my own life that I think is important

24:44

because you are pretty much describing

24:47

the whole thing, which is I have a friend

24:49

who was married, and

24:52

whenever I was around them, he was so

24:54

verbally abusive to her, you know, and it

24:56

was really uncomfortable for people to be around

24:58

them because you'd say, oh, what do you know, you're

25:00

so stupid you don't know, or well,

25:03

you just won't lose that baby fat,

25:05

and you know, just it was so it

25:09

was horrific, and but

25:11

you know, people at that level, people go,

25:13

well, I guess there's got to be good points to that,

25:15

because she's still in it. And then

25:17

one day she showed up at my apartment and

25:20

he had beaten her up because she

25:22

found meth and a

25:24

pipe in his belongings.

25:27

And so for me,

25:30

thinking quite rationally, I said, we have to call

25:32

the police, and she kept saying,

25:34

oh, no, no, I don't want to rock the boat. I

25:36

don't want to get him mad. He's a father of

25:38

my children, you know, protect him, protect

25:40

him, protect him. Anyway, long

25:43

story short, they went through a horrific divorce.

25:46

He's a meth addict, he's also gay,

25:49

and he showed

25:51

all the extreme signs,

25:54

the red flags that you're describing. But

25:56

at the beginning, it was that

25:58

kind of narcissism. Seemed like

26:00

he was incredibly you

26:03

know, he was a proud man and he was

26:05

so secure and he knew himself

26:07

and that's what attracted her to him.

26:09

And then over time all these

26:12

things developed to an extreme obviously,

26:14

Yeah, an alpha male in the beginning.

26:17

Yeah, and he controlled the finances and all

26:19

those other things. But you know they're now

26:21

finally divorced. And but for

26:23

me as an observer of this,

26:26

this to me was an extreme example of everything

26:28

you're talking about. Such a classic

26:31

example too, of how

26:34

insidious this is in an abusive

26:36

relationship, where

26:39

again, obviously he got

26:41

worse and worse over time. But

26:43

yeah, I don't think the drugs helped either, No,

26:46

no, And they often go hand in

26:48

hand as well. Nothing exacerbates

26:52

personality or character pathology more

26:54

quickly than substance abuse or addiction.

26:57

So obviously it was all it

26:59

was all escalating with

27:01

him. But it's horrible

27:04

to witness that. And it's the classic

27:07

depiction that you're describing

27:10

right now, where the person

27:12

in the abusive relationship is just in it

27:16

and they do a number of

27:18

things. One is they take on responsibility

27:21

for the bad behavior. We just

27:23

have to wait for a pass. They're going through a difficult

27:25

time, we've got to make sure things are better at

27:28

home. Don't want to rock the boat. That's

27:30

taking responsibility for someone's

27:32

abuse, and it's inevitable if

27:35

you're trying to stay connected to someone who's abusive.

27:38

We see this, and this

27:40

is why it becomes harder

27:42

and harder to leave over time. Yeah,

27:44

I was going to ask you about that. It seems like

27:46

it's incredibly difficult to

27:49

extract yourself from a relationship with

27:51

a narcissist. How do you do that? For

27:53

practical reasons and emotional

27:55

reasons. Yeah, one of the biggest

27:58

barriers, I would say,

28:01

And this will speak particularly to people who struggle

28:03

with echoism because it's sort of central

28:06

to their defensive style. There are ways of

28:08

protecting themselves. One of the biggest berries

28:10

of self blame. So you're

28:13

in a bad relationship and

28:16

you've got sunk cost as

28:18

we call it, where you've invested a lot, it's been

28:20

years, you've got kids, your lives

28:23

are inextricably bound together

28:26

or seemingly inextricably right, it's

28:28

going to be hard to untangle things.

28:32

There are a lot more reasons to explain

28:34

to yourself why you should stay than

28:36

why you should go. And

28:38

one of the ways that people accomplish

28:41

that is they tell themselves,

28:43

well, I'm being too sensitive. I

28:46

need to approach this differently. I

28:48

need to understand that he's going through a difficult

28:51

time. I've always been this way,

28:53

where I have really intense emotional reactions.

28:55

I have to be mindful of

28:58

that that

29:00

self blame stands

29:02

in the way of the anger

29:06

that's natural and healthy and important

29:08

that you felt watching this happen. I'm

29:10

sure you weren't just sad. I'm sure you

29:12

were angry at times on your

29:15

friend's behalf. Oh yeah, well,

29:17

I mean I wanted to do all

29:20

kinds of legal action

29:22

and absolutely, and that

29:25

is the process. When I work with people who

29:27

are in abusive relationships, whether

29:29

it's a mild form, but regardless

29:32

of whether somebody's extremely narcissistic,

29:34

whatever it's causing us, one

29:36

of the first things I do is try to get them in touch

29:38

with healthy anger. I don't

29:41

know if you know, people are always surprised

29:43

when I talk about anger being important and healthy.

29:45

It is. It's wired in it's

29:47

primary Anger helps

29:49

us stand up and say no and

29:52

connect to feelings about what matters

29:54

and what's right for us. Part

29:57

of dignity feelings, and if

29:59

we learned that it's dangerous to express

30:02

anger, which is the other in cities impact

30:04

of an abusive relationship, like it makes

30:06

things worse often when we try to express

30:08

our anger, all right, So then it

30:10

gets easier and easier to try to silence

30:13

or swelch it. But the tradeoff then

30:15

is that you're cut off from the

30:17

kinds of impulses

30:19

and awareness and insight that

30:22

help you leave. So my first

30:24

step is helping people end self blame

30:26

and instead of asking what am I doing wrong,

30:29

to ask am I disappointed or angry?

30:33

Right? Yeah, I would assume

30:35

it's how you acquire agency of

30:37

your own life, you know. And I

30:39

watch somebody who had none, you

30:41

know, and now it would seem to me, even

30:44

though it's counterintuitive that they

30:47

then repeat this pattern, like

30:49

this friend of mine, you know, I

30:51

don't know what she's going to do, but I hope she doesn't

30:54

now meet another narcissist and

30:56

sort of get into the same cycle

30:59

that can have. And this is one

31:01

of the reasons I developed the concept of echoism.

31:03

Remember, kind of the rule

31:06

of living for an echoist is the less room

31:08

I take up, the better, And

31:11

that's their stance in life, and they're

31:13

caring and generous

31:15

people that they can have relationships

31:18

with, and they're lucky to find

31:20

them. But the reality

31:22

is that anybody who needs

31:25

you to give up your voice in order to feel connected

31:27

to you or to feel comfortable with you, anybody

31:30

who needs you to

31:32

continue that way of living that you've

31:34

become comfortable with, is

31:37

probably going to be more narcissistic because

31:39

they're kind of flip sides of each

31:42

other. Would narcissists have an extreme

31:44

drive to feel special, echoists

31:46

are afraid of special attention, and

31:48

when that becomes a way of living life, staying

31:51

connected to people and moving through the

31:53

world, you've got to think about who's drawn

31:55

to that. The person who's going to be comfortable,

31:58

most comfortable with you is the

32:00

one who likes that you don't take up any room,

32:02

right, who likes that you don't challenge

32:04

their extreme drive fuel special. So

32:07

what starts out feeling as you being

32:09

careful or mindful of others

32:11

in a relationship can become what I call defensive

32:14

empathy right where

32:17

it's kind of the mirror of the what about

32:19

me stance in extreme

32:21

narcissism. The echoing side

32:23

of that is, well, what about

32:26

him, what about her? Look what they've

32:28

been through. They've told me about their

32:30

childhood. Often people who are extremely narcissists

32:32

have been abused and elect themselves, so

32:35

they have that as part of their backstory.

32:38

And often people who continue

32:40

to get into abusive relationships,

32:43

one of the things that they struggle with is

32:45

they trade their anger for empathy

32:48

when you should be able to have both. Right,

32:51

So it sounds like there's

32:54

two different types of childhood trauma

32:56

that then inform kind of who

32:59

they are or will be as adults. So

33:02

I'm calling it a submissive and

33:04

the other abused child is

33:07

sort of cooked into the narcissistic

33:10

traits. That seems like a perfect

33:12

match. It is narcissists

33:14

in echo. It feels like low

33:17

versus high self esteem in a way.

33:19

The high self esteem takes up all the room

33:22

and the low self esteem just powers in the corner

33:24

and takes what it can get it can

33:26

be. I prefer to think of it as addictive

33:29

self enhancement or drives people special versus

33:32

a failure to self enhance or fear

33:34

of special attention. Alright, the

33:37

reason because you lecture at Harvard, So I'm putting

33:39

it in this

33:41

is yber. But the reason

33:44

also is because narcissists

33:47

often don't even have high self esteem,

33:49

but they mask it well. The loud,

33:52

brash kind you remember, the introverted

33:54

or covert narcissists may

33:57

visibly suffer from low self esteem.

34:00

They might even endorse statements like I'm

34:02

not all that special, nobody really

34:05

cares about me, right, which is the harder

34:07

narcissist to spot, because I

34:09

think in our culture we always equate narcissism

34:12

with big, loud bullies,

34:15

like I said before, so the quieter ones

34:18

are very hard to label narcissists.

34:21

They could be so many other things. Yes,

34:26

and it's time for a short break. Welcome

34:35

back to go. Ask Galley, what

34:38

would be your advice to people

34:41

that have familial relationships

34:44

with people that are narcissists. How do

34:46

you preserve your own dignity

34:49

self control when you're

34:51

constantly having to deal with a narcissist.

34:53

Yeah, Often people can't just take

34:56

off, they can't just go no contact,

34:59

as it's often described. Could you never

35:01

abandon your mother because she was a narcissist?

35:04

I didn't, So what

35:06

I did is again, in non

35:08

abusive relationships, something alcohol

35:11

empathy prompts I used these with my

35:13

mother all the time, and that

35:15

is when she was being critical or

35:17

accusing me, for example, of using

35:21

funds from selling off stuff

35:24

that was at their house after my father died

35:26

to help her move because she was a destitute, because

35:28

she'd spent down all her cash,

35:30

and I needed to use some of it to pay for

35:32

the move. Because I was a poor, starving

35:34

graduate student, I didn't have I didn't

35:36

have the money to do it without some help.

35:39

So we got a few thousand dollars, some of which

35:41

went to the move, and she spent

35:44

an hour interrogating

35:46

me about what had happened to the rest of the

35:48

money. With

35:51

her, I used an empathy prompt. It's like, Mom,

35:54

I love you, I care about your my mother,

35:57

You're one of the most important people in my life,

35:59

and it's devastating to hear

36:02

you ask me this as

36:04

though you think I might have just taken the money.

36:07

It makes me feel like you think I'm

36:09

a horrible person or nothing

36:12

in your eyes. That's an empathy

36:14

prompt where you first emphasize

36:17

the importance of the person to you, the

36:21

specialness of the relationship, if you will,

36:24

and it kind of lights up those blocked

36:26

areas of the brain devoted to connection and carry

36:28

and concern, and somebody's extremely narcissistic,

36:31

and then you share from a vulnerable place. It would

36:33

be tempting for me, It would be tempting

36:36

for anybody to say, what the hell are you talking

36:38

about? Are you out of your mind? How

36:40

could you even ask me something that awful? Which

36:43

you can do, but as

36:46

anybody on the receiving end of that is going to get

36:48

more defensive and protective, and with a narcissist

36:50

that means they get more narcissistic. And

36:54

it actually cuts me off from the point,

36:56

which is I want my mother to be caring

36:58

and I want to have a connection to her, and

37:01

me blasting her is actually about distance,

37:03

which is great if you don't have to be in the room

37:06

with a person and you just want to get away. Not

37:08

so great. Of what you're saying is I need you to be

37:10

kinder to me right for us

37:12

to be close. So that's an empathy prompt.

37:15

That's what I did with her. I mean there are other

37:17

things that I did that were more about managing

37:19

the relationship, but that's something

37:21

worth trying. If you have connection

37:24

with this person and they're more in the mild

37:26

range. Remember that spectrum from zero that

37:28

I talked about to give from zero to

37:30

ten left to right zero extreme

37:33

echoist, ten is pathologically

37:36

narcissistic. Someone around a six or seven.

37:38

It's worth trying. Empathy prompts with it's

37:42

good to know. What else are you learning? Like, is

37:44

there any kind of medication that's going to come

37:46

out so we can medicate narcissist and

37:49

block those brain scepters that tell

37:51

them to be the way they are? Well,

37:53

you've got a point that you're making there that actually

37:56

taps into what we do know works

37:59

one medication. So the

38:01

people I see who have narcissist in personality

38:03

disorder, there's kind of a selection bias,

38:07

as we call it, where for

38:10

somebody to get in my door, for

38:12

example, they are not likely

38:14

to be the kind of person with

38:16

narcissistic personality disorder who won't

38:18

admit to problems. And we know

38:21

this is confirmed by research. It's usually

38:23

people with introverted narcissism. They're the

38:25

ones who show up for therapy because

38:27

they're willing to say, I'm upset, I'm

38:30

anxious, I'm depressed, and

38:32

will you give somebody like that in the

38:35

room. One of the first things I

38:37

do with them. I do this with everybody

38:40

to some extent, but especially somebody who's extremely

38:42

narcissistic, as I help them reduce

38:45

their anxiety. So

38:47

anything that helps somebody with particularly

38:50

vulnerable narcissism feel less anxious,

38:53

whether it's medication or whether

38:55

it's psychotherapy, is going

38:58

to reduce their narcissism over time

39:00

eventually, because the less

39:02

anxious someone is, the less they're operating

39:05

in defense mode. The whole point

39:07

of these automatic or unconscious

39:09

defenses, like pathological

39:11

narcissism, which has a collection of defensive

39:13

responses, you know, they can all

39:15

boil down to the vulnerability dodge.

39:18

As I said, like with any

39:20

of these, the more

39:22

anxiety drops, the less people are operating

39:25

in the defensive mode. So it's not atypical

39:27

for me to have somebody in the room, whether

39:30

it's bases, a combination of us talking

39:32

about in them getting on some anti anxiety

39:34

meds, or just working

39:36

with me to help them know what it

39:38

feels like to not be in that

39:40

fight or flight state, or tense

39:42

or angry, which is also anxiety

39:46

masked. So often people

39:48

with covert narcissism are irritable or briskly

39:51

but it's anxiety, right, and so

39:53

when I help them reduce that anxiety,

39:55

that's often an event in and of itself. I

39:57

had somebody recently come to me and they

39:59

said, I've ever felt this calm

40:01

in my life. Wow. And they started

40:03

using these techniques. And once I've got

40:05

them there, somebody who's calm

40:08

isn't going to go on the attack. They're

40:10

not going to put you down. They don't need to. They

40:13

don't have the insecurity firing up in them.

40:15

Right. So direct answer

40:17

to your question is I, I mean, you get them on

40:20

me on medication that reduces their anxiety,

40:22

it's going to help, right, I mean

40:24

it's going to help most problems really

40:26

if they get lower the stress

40:28

factor. So yeah,

40:35

before I let you go, Um, this

40:37

is going to sound very narcissistic, but it's my

40:39

podcast, and I ask the

40:42

people that come on is my guests a lot of questions,

40:44

and so I like to turn it at the end and

40:47

let my guests ask me a question about

40:49

anything. So do you have a question

40:51

for me? Can you call me schmoopy?

40:54

I'll

40:59

call you smoopy. Course that's

41:02

not my question. It is related though.

41:04

Yeah, there are certain shows that

41:06

we grew up with that that we watched

41:08

addictively. For me, it was Gilligan's

41:11

Island I was little, but in my twenties it

41:13

was in Living Color. Oh

41:15

Wow. Yeah, I watched that show

41:18

again and again and I watched it with my friends.

41:20

And I'm not going to assume that it was a great

41:23

experience for you. But my

41:25

question is, what's your most memorable time on

41:27

in Living Color? Wow? Well, I'll

41:29

tell you one thing that you'll appreciate

41:31

because of what you do, which is, you

41:34

know, very early on, I learned that I

41:36

thought that humor and comedy could

41:38

actually be kind of healing

41:40

tools. And it

41:42

was on in Living Color that I realized

41:46

making people laugh was actually

41:49

a superpower. And so

41:51

that was one of the great things that came out of it. And

41:53

I talk a lot in my podcast I use humor

41:55

to parent, yeah, because I find

41:57

it more effective than saying, like, you go to your

42:00

right now. So let's say, there's

42:02

a lot of memories within Living Color. And

42:05

I got to me Jim Carrey and David

42:07

Ellen Greer and Jamie Fox. I

42:09

will say I had a lot of fun with Jamie

42:12

Fox, and we

42:15

did a lot of crazy sketches together,

42:17

and one sketch we did was he had a character

42:19

called Ugly Woman where

42:21

he yeah, he will make up in a way,

42:24

and we did a basic instinct

42:26

ugly Woman and I

42:28

was Sharon Stone, and so

42:31

in the sketch, now we did it live,

42:34

so you know, there was no changing anything.

42:36

And so in the sketch we're supposed

42:38

to kind of fake kiss, and

42:41

Jamie was chewing gum and he

42:43

just stuck his tongue

42:45

in my and he deposited

42:48

the chewed gum in my mouth. So

42:51

rather than you know, sort of freak

42:53

out or hide it, I took the gum

42:55

out of my mouth and held it up and the whole

42:58

audience was like, you

43:00

know, but that was that was how off

43:02

the rails we were, which was exciting. I mean,

43:04

they would never be able to make this show today

43:06

everyone be canceled. But at

43:08

the time, you know, it felt very groundbreaking,

43:12

and you know, you felt like you were

43:14

pushing the envelope a little, which was pretty cool.

43:17

You are awesome on thank you and

43:19

thank you for thank you for all your work you're doing

43:21

and rethanking narcissism. I've

43:24

so enjoyed your book, Doctor

43:26

Malkin, and I really I bought

43:29

a bunch of them to send us some friends, not

43:31

because I was calling them narcissists, but

43:33

I think it's an important read and recognizing

43:36

and coping with narcissists in the world. So

43:39

I really appreciate you coming on and talk to me

43:41

about this. Thank you, You're so welcome.

43:47

Thank you for listening to Go Ask Alli. I've

43:49

got to hop off this podcast because

43:51

I just realized I am riddled

43:53

with narcissists in my life and

43:55

I need to go get rid of them. Please

43:57

read doctor Malkin's book Rethinking Crassism,

44:00

The Secret to Recognizing and Coping With

44:02

Narcissists. Follow him on Instagram

44:05

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