0:00

Good Company is a production of I Heart Radio.

0:02

I couldn't be in a better place, in a better

0:05

position, extremely happy for what we've

0:07

been able to build. We're growing faster

0:09

than than a newborn baby, for sure.

0:17

Hi, I'm Michael Casson. Welcome

0:19

to Good Company, where I'll explore how marketing,

0:22

media, entertainment and tech are intersecting,

0:25

transforming our lives and the way we do business

0:27

at a breakneck speed. I'll be joined

0:29

by some of the greatest business minds and strongest

0:32

leaders who will share how they build companies from

0:34

the ground up or transform them from the inside

0:36

out. My bed is you'll pick up a lesson

0:39

or two along the way. It's all good.

0:42

It's really a great pleasure to welcome

0:44

Rich Paul to Good Company. Rich

0:47

is the CEO and founder of Clutch Sports.

0:49

Doesn't need too much of an introduction, as

0:52

Clutch Sports and Rich Paul have

0:54

become synonymous with leadership in

0:57

sports in the agency side

0:59

of the business US and the exciting

1:01

part for me, of course, is when Media Link

1:04

joined forces with the United

1:06

Talent Agency at the end of One

1:10

of the great benefits of that was the

1:12

ability to call Rich Paul my partner

1:14

and my friend, so rich, welcome, thank

1:16

you, thank you for the kind words, and uh,

1:19

I appreciate you allowed me to get on and

1:21

have this conversation. Is pretty much just

1:23

a typical dinner nite for us, but we'll do it

1:25

at at tend There

1:27

you go, so rich your

1:29

story, and you know, I had the pleasure of

1:32

hearing it directly from you, and I know our audience

1:34

will will love to hear your story. But

1:37

can you just kind of give us a little bit

1:39

of a picture of how you got

1:41

started? And you know, it's a funny

1:43

thing to say how you climb the ranks, because

1:46

I think you traversed them in a way that it's

1:48

kind of never been done. You kind of went

1:50

in auto terms from zero to sixty and

1:52

about two seconds, putting

1:55

yourself right in the center of the action

1:58

in sports. But I loved it. Just talk

2:00

about kind of where you got started. And

2:02

as my friend Jeffrey Katzenberg once said,

2:04

when he asked somebody who's a singer,

2:07

when he wants to know their motivation, he says

2:09

to them, who was the artist and what

2:11

was the song? So I would say to you,

2:14

you know, who was it and what was it that

2:16

that kind of catapulted

2:18

you. I think my dad

2:20

was my biggest motivation. You know, my

2:23

story is a story of faith, it really

2:25

is, and passion too, But my

2:27

dad was probably my biggest motivation.

2:30

And I think my environment was

2:33

my my biggest push.

2:35

You know, I come from a place in which we

2:37

have very few outlets, have very few

2:39

options, there's zero infrastructure.

2:43

The education that you

2:45

are able to obtain through public

2:48

resources is very

2:52

what I would say, basic basic

2:55

education. And so you

2:58

know, as a kid, I looked around, I saw

3:01

things at a very early age I probably shouldn't

3:03

have. I heard things I probably shouldn't have.

3:06

But also the bright side of

3:08

that was the world

3:10

that I live in today. I know

3:12

that it's not necessarily

3:15

everyday life for every one, and

3:18

so it allows me to have a great balance, allows

3:20

me to actually appreciate the position that

3:22

I'm in and some of the things

3:24

I've been able to do along with my team

3:27

over over the course of the past ten

3:29

years. And the grind.

3:31

It really allows you to appreciate the grind. Nothing

3:34

was given, everything was earned

3:36

and will continue to be and

3:39

as it pertains to the to the clients

3:41

that we are able to represent, it allows

3:43

you to have this relatability and

3:45

understanding of each other as people first,

3:48

not being seen as just a transaction or

3:50

a fee. We've been able to

3:53

build the business on the foundation of that

3:55

integrity, and so I

3:57

couldn't be in a better place and a better

3:59

position, Extremely happy for what we've

4:01

been able to build. We're growing faster

4:04

than than a newborn baby, for sure,

4:06

and it's a lot of fun. It's

4:09

a lot of fun, well rich.

4:11

It's interesting. You know. I'd tell people,

4:13

and this might surprise you, but I

4:15

tell people that my parents did me a great

4:17

service and they did me a disservice.

4:20

The great service was I grew up early.

4:23

I grew up fast. I had two older sisters,

4:25

and so whether it was social or

4:28

other aspects of life, I was exposed

4:30

to a lot as the youngest and the only child,

4:32

the only boy. And you know with

4:35

with older sisters, you tend to grow up a little

4:37

faster. It just you know, you're part

4:39

of the equation in a different way

4:41

from me. And I've always said, I

4:43

don't know that I had a proper childhood.

4:45

I didn't have an improper childhood, but

4:47

again, I was exposed to things that were

4:49

probably beyond my years. You know, when

4:52

movies start started putting ratings

4:55

on them. Um, you know, you couldn't

4:57

see a PG thirteen or are or

4:59

what have you. My family didn't

5:01

have that filter of PG thirteen. Yeah,

5:05

no, And it's it's really interesting, but

5:07

I think it contributed a lot to you know,

5:10

whatever monicum amount of success I've been

5:12

able to achieve. And similar to

5:14

you, those things are motivators

5:16

and you know, again are are growing up experiences

5:19

were likely you know, different

5:21

but but similar in that way

5:23

that on the one hand, it made me,

5:26

it made me a better person. On the

5:28

other hand, I kind of felt like some of the

5:32

some of the childhood stuff escaped

5:34

me. So it's interesting that that, you know, we hadn't

5:37

had that conversation before. It can be

5:39

a sword and a shield when you have that exposure

5:42

too early, what you know, the idea of too

5:44

much too soon can really

5:47

you know, screw up a lot of people. In your case,

5:49

it obviously acted as a as

5:51

a projectile, and

5:53

in my case it did too because I just felt

5:55

like I was already there. I was already older.

5:58

I already needed to become ridding

6:00

myself as an older person because I

6:02

felt older. That's I mean, yeah,

6:04

that aligned directly with how I grew up. It

6:07

was a se sauce sort of speaking

6:09

with the good and the bad. But what emotion?

6:12

Emotion? I think it's necessary as well. I

6:15

think I wouldn't change I

6:17

wouldn't change anything. Rich Let

6:19

me go back to that question though, what

6:21

was the singer and what was the song? You know, who

6:23

was the artist and what was the song? What

6:26

made you realize that that you know

6:28

sports and you know representation.

6:31

I'm sure you didn't think about it in that context

6:33

at that moment, but what was that moment?

6:36

And I know you've told me a story about a jersey.

6:39

I'd love you to share that story.

6:41

Yeah, I think the I think the artists

6:43

from a figure to perspective was

6:46

probably just Um warm

6:48

Moon as a sports figure. You

6:51

know, that jersey met. My understanding

6:54

of who warm Moon was and

6:56

being a fan of his led me to purchasing

7:00

his jersey, and that jersey got

7:02

the attention at that time

7:05

in that moment, a young

7:07

man happened to be uh

7:09

Lebron James. But you know, I

7:12

think again the song was

7:14

was just it wasn't

7:17

a specific song, it was just entrepreneurial

7:20

spirit. You know I had that

7:23

as a kid, I had that. I

7:25

don't know. I guess my dad would probably say I might

7:27

have been two or three years

7:29

of age. Um. And I was

7:31

always very aware

7:34

of my surroundings and able

7:37

to understand

7:39

the detail and in the

7:41

different characters of people, you know, because

7:43

I was able to see characters

7:46

every day all day, you know, because

7:48

my dad on the corner store and you're in the corner

7:50

in the neighborhood. There's all type

7:52

of characters that come, male,

7:55

female, kids, adults, It

7:57

don't matter. And so you

7:59

know, one day I took a bus trip

8:02

and it was my friend's mom was

8:04

throwing a bus trip and I was really at

8:06

his house to visit him. And

8:08

when she explained to me they were having this bush

8:11

trip, I was being I was

8:13

really being supportive, and I said,

8:15

you know, I'll pay for

8:17

four four people to go. Gave

8:19

her the money and I didn't

8:22

think twice about it. So about

8:24

three weeks later, it

8:26

was in the wee hours the morning, I get this call

8:28

and it's my friend's mom and I'm like hello,

8:32

She's like, um, you know, basically,

8:34

where you guys at. I'm like, who is you guys?

8:37

You know? What are you talking about? She's like, we're at

8:39

the At that time, it was it

8:41

was Tops and Tops was a grocery store

8:44

chain in Ohio. It was it's

8:46

sort of like Rouse here, and

8:49

they would park the cars there for the

8:51

bus to meet him. Indeed, you would go. And

8:54

I was like, um, well what

8:56

do you What are you asking me to do? And she was like, we're waiting

8:58

on you. We can't leave. Were waiting on you.

9:00

So I was like, I didn't really want

9:02

to go. I was paying for someone else to go.

9:05

And she was like, well, we're here. And I was with a

9:07

friend of mine and he was like, well, man,

9:09

we might as well just go. And so

9:11

we went and we're only men, the only men

9:13

on this bus. And we go to

9:16

New York City and we get off on Canal

9:18

Street and they were going

9:20

to bargain shop, which all understand, but

9:23

I wasn't a bargain shopper. And so

9:25

we got in the cab and we went

9:27

over to Fifth Avenue

9:29

and did some shopping and whatnot. And then

9:32

the last stop I made was an NBA store

9:35

and I was going to get a jersey I had

9:37

been wanting for a while because

9:39

I was known to like, say, sneakers.

9:42

So I would have sneakers for like six months and

9:44

we're wearing It's a weird thing I would

9:46

do before this whole sneaker thing

9:48

went crazy. But but nevertheless,

9:51

I was there and I was in line. I had the

9:53

jersey I wanted and it was actually the

9:56

Trails Freewell Nicks. I wanted to go with

9:58

these bow Jackson I had had for And

10:01

at the corner of my eye, I saw this little

10:04

area and it was and I was asked to guys,

10:06

said what is that over there? He said, that's our new

10:09

hardwood classics, and I

10:11

said hardwood classics. So they had an Elgin

10:13

Baylor Lakers, a Bill Russell

10:15

Celtics, and they had an Oscar Robberson

10:18

Bucks. I bought two to three Celtics,

10:20

I mean Bucks and Lakers and

10:23

got to the register and I didn't even look

10:26

at the price of the of these jerseys.

10:28

So when I got to the register, my

10:31

balance jumped off. It

10:33

jumped all the way up, and I said, whoa, whoa, whoa,

10:36

what the hell the day he goes? Hey, man, each

10:38

one of these is like three So

10:40

I was like, So

10:42

I was like, okay, So I bought him, and

10:44

I'm mosy on we get back because the bus is

10:46

going back that day. It's not like you're spending night

10:48

and check into a hotel. So hot

10:51

back on and we get back. And

10:53

in Cleveland, Thursday through Sundays the

10:55

biggest club nights. And so I

10:57

wear these two jerseys to the club different

11:00

nights. And I just got this crazy response

11:02

Michael, and I'm like, hmm,

11:04

so that Sunday is our biggest night. And

11:08

I might have got home in like five in the morning. And

11:10

I bought my first home when I was nineteen

11:14

years old, so where yeah, And I had

11:16

this little makeshift, makeshift office because

11:18

I was trying to put myself

11:20

through college. I was going like two days out of the week.

11:23

And I stayed up all night

11:25

thinking about this jersey

11:28

response I was getting, and I

11:30

googled. It wasn't even Google you, I

11:32

don't think I put in the A. O. L. Hardwood

11:36

Classics. First thing that came on the search

11:38

was this story in Atlanta called Distant Replays.

11:41

And when I went on their site, they had all

11:43

these different jerseys and that

11:46

caused me to stay up till nine in

11:48

the morning. And I was the first person

11:50

to call this story and the guy answers

11:53

and I get to talk to him about jerseys on the side

11:55

and said, well, we don't have this where we have this one blah

11:57

blah blah. And over time I

12:00

developed a relationship with this with this guy,

12:02

and I would buy jersey from me every week and

12:05

I would ram to the club and I would get the same response.

12:08

I did this for for two months straight,

12:11

and finally, after the two months. His name

12:13

was Andy Hyman. I asked

12:15

Andy. I said, Andy, do you

12:17

think it's possible that I can invest in your business?

12:20

And he said, if you're serious, fly

12:23

down to Atlanta and see me. Well,

12:26

I had one major problem. I had never

12:28

flown before because

12:30

we would drive everywhere, you know, for

12:32

for sports and things like that. We would always

12:34

dry And so a friend of mine

12:37

said to me, I told him about this conversation

12:40

I had. He said, you know what, my high

12:42

school classmates, they

12:44

all go to clark in More house. They live in

12:46

Atlanta. So I booked the flight. You

12:48

just pay me the money back and we can stay at my

12:50

friend's house in Marietta. You go to your

12:52

meeting, we'll hang out and come on back. So

12:55

that's what we did. I didn't know

12:57

he was gonna book this flight out of akron Kent Airport.

13:01

I thought he would book it out of Cleveland. You know, Hopkins,

13:03

you got Delta and goes right there. He

13:06

was trying to save money on the purchase of the ticket.

13:09

But we have to go forty five minutes

13:11

to Act from Canton and come back forty

13:13

five minutes. So time is money, it's what

13:15

It's the way I would think. Luckily,

13:18

that's not how he was thinking. And so through

13:20

my travels, one day I'm at the

13:22

gate and these kids are I

13:24

see these tall kids, and they're like looking

13:27

at me. I'm looking at them and I don't know what they

13:29

want, you know. And and then one

13:32

of them asked me, like, hey man, what kind of jerseys that you

13:34

have? Bre And I go into explaining

13:36

and we get on the plane and get the baggage

13:38

claim. Here they come again. And

13:40

so I gave him my business card and

13:43

I said, listen, go to this store. If

13:45

you have any problems. If I'm not there,

13:48

have him called me. You can use my discount.

13:52

Sure enough, and he calls me.

13:54

But I'm back in Cleveland. And when he calls me,

13:56

and he goes, there's some kids in here. They're shopping

13:59

and dropping your name. I said, what they buying

14:01

and say buying one? Jursey said which one? Because we always

14:03

wanted to know what someone was buying Magic

14:05

Johnson Lakers. I said, okay,

14:08

so yeah, they can use my discount. By the

14:10

way, Rich, Rich, you understood then

14:13

how important data was. Okay,

14:15

you you were trying to you were you were getting the data,

14:18

so you were ahead, you were prescuted, you were ahead

14:20

of the curve. You understood that data

14:22

was gonna be predictive for your business.

14:24

So that's a that's an important message

14:26

to the audience. Trust me. Yeah,

14:29

And without knowing data back then, I guess.

14:31

So I guess you're right, and that kid end up being

14:33

Lebron James. Out of nowhere. That's

14:35

good data. That's

14:37

good literally out of nowhere.

14:39

And so that started the relationship.

14:41

But then, you know, I was always

14:43

a kid into sports and into fashion and

14:46

into culture, and that's what

14:48

I was known for my neighborhood. I was known

14:51

for being very fashion

14:53

forward, like in I

14:57

think I got pictures of this definitely in seven,

15:00

you know, wearing DC

15:03

and why my jeans were a little slimmer

15:05

and everyone else's. And I remember

15:08

having like a Versace shirt, you know VERSACEI

15:10

he didn't think it made and it was tight

15:13

at a moment where guys were

15:15

there, but you know, it was me, So people

15:17

didn't really make fun of me. They

15:19

wanted to more so. No, what

15:21

that was, and that was like my

15:23

my thing growing up. It really was. Well,

15:26

you haven't lost that. You're still a fashion

15:29

east. I'll tell you

15:32

you got some stuff. You've got some style going

15:34

on. No one gets put clothes

15:36

on here, so I just wear hoodie. Yeah,

15:41

Rich, you know, you

15:43

you broke a milestone, not recently, but

15:45

some time ago with you

15:47

know, a nice round number of representation

15:50

and contracts and and you know

15:53

clients generating you

15:55

know, in excess of a billion dollars

15:57

in contract value. Probably

16:00

you know, I've seen numbers anywhere from a billion

16:02

to two billion dollars in

16:04

contract value on behalf

16:07

of some of the boldest face names

16:09

in sport. Let's be clear. I

16:11

mean, whether it's Lebron or Anthony Davis

16:14

or you know, go down the list. There's

16:16

there's the envy of all. But

16:19

I think the part of your story

16:21

that is so interesting, not many

16:23

people. And I'll tell you again, maybe this

16:25

is a similarity in our

16:28

backgrounds would put me in the media

16:30

business. Was actually rewriting

16:32

a law. As crazy as that sounds,

16:35

I represented a client when I was a lawyer

16:37

rich and that client got

16:39

into a bankruptcy circumstance and I was a

16:41

tax lawyer, but I helped change a law.

16:43

I went to Washington on behalf of a client

16:46

back in and actually wrote

16:48

a law. But I actually wrote a sentence

16:51

that is still on the books of the United

16:53

States Bankruptcy Code because it was around

16:56

fairness in a in a particular

16:58

provision. And a senator

17:00

from Ohio, uh, Howard

17:02

met Zimbaum, who was your senator,

17:05

turned out to be an extraordinarily close friend

17:07

of mine and changed the course of my

17:09

career. And I mean that genuinely great

17:12

respect and affection for Howard met Zimbaum.

17:15

And that name is it's

17:17

just crazy that you say that, because Metsinbaum

17:21

for me growing up, was a place

17:23

that they took kids that were

17:25

didn't have parents. Yeah

17:29

really, I'm sure. I'm sure

17:31

named after his family. Yeah, so

17:33

so that's that's a funny, separate story.

17:35

But the senator from Ohio changed

17:38

my career, and I probably wouldn't be in the media

17:40

business if it wasn't for Howard met Zimbaum in

17:42

a funny kind of crazy way. But

17:45

um, you know, I get to write

17:47

a law. They wrote a law for

17:49

you, the so called Rich Paul

17:52

rule. I'd love you to give some

17:55

some some background on that and

17:57

and you know what led to that, and you

17:59

know, and and its hats off to you for

18:01

getting people to pay attention to what probably

18:04

was a law that needed to be rewritten

18:06

or a rule that needed to be changed. Yeah.

18:09

Look, I think for many years that

18:12

there has always been a

18:14

monopoly uh in the industry

18:16

of sports and representation just in

18:18

general, and you can say probably in

18:21

in representation in the Hollywood space as

18:23

well. And the biggest

18:25

thing was they weren't

18:28

used to the black face, um,

18:31

especially an unapologetic black

18:34

face. UM A young you

18:37

know, do things my way.

18:40

I'm going to add fashion forward, um

18:45

you know, um,

18:47

not afraid of conflict, not playing

18:50

the the game of you

18:52

know, lie to your client while doing

18:55

lunch with the owner type

18:57

of face. They

18:59

weren't used to that. And the

19:01

barriers that were placed and the challenges

19:03

that were placed was from a collective.

19:06

You know, it wasn't just a CIA

19:08

that were trying to make it hard for me when

19:11

I decided to start Clutch. It was everybody

19:14

involved, all the competitors involved,

19:16

whether they were

19:18

you know, given information to media

19:21

outlets or trying to

19:23

drive a wadge amongst clients and

19:25

things like that through false

19:28

information. And so when

19:30

the Rich Paul rule came about that

19:32

restriction number one, it

19:35

made absolutely no sense because you know, any

19:38

in the representation business, the

19:40

best agents are

19:42

more, you know, they learned more from

19:44

the hands on experience, and they can never learn

19:47

from having a degree, right,

19:49

Like, what is the degree going to do for you

19:52

in this space? And so I

19:54

felt like what they knew was there

19:57

was less people of color to even

19:59

have degrees, because an education

20:02

is something that it's not

20:05

the first thing you think about when you're trying to survive

20:07

in everyday life. And I knew

20:09

that my ribs is touching because

20:12

of hunger. How the hell I'm gonna think about

20:14

opening this book to understand

20:16

the opt to triangle or the A

20:19

word problem, or if I

20:21

have to write this paper in the m l A format,

20:24

I can give a ship that's about that. When I got

20:26

my siblings here that that's

20:28

hungry, you know, And so I

20:31

was really disturbed by it. And

20:35

you know, they make up these rules

20:38

and they create these narratives in this perception

20:41

um based upon how

20:43

they view you. So we

20:45

know, higher education wasn't something that

20:47

people of color was going to be able to obtain

20:50

in abundance. So therefore, all of

20:52

a sudden, you gotta be or

20:54

were You're supposed to be a lawyer. To

20:57

be able to be an agent, you had to have a law degree.

20:59

That's what it would said to be. So now

21:01

if you are someone of color and you do have a law

21:04

degree, then you're accepted because

21:06

that's going to be a small it's still gonna be a small

21:08

group of people. When I came along,

21:11

it became a thing where you

21:13

don't want to be with somebody that listens to your

21:15

type of music, or that doesn't wear a

21:17

suit, or that goes

21:19

to the club with you. Those are all things

21:22

that I actually did. And so when

21:25

the competition would be in the rooms,

21:27

they would say, knowing

21:29

that they probably meet with me next or met

21:31

with me prior, not to do these

21:33

things. And it became a thing

21:35

to where you know, you want to be with

21:38

us because we're in this space.

21:41

Well, it's funny how today is

21:44

every chance they get to hire the young,

21:46

cool black guy, they do it

21:48

and they'll pay them double triple because

21:51

they think that's all Rich

21:53

Paul is. And so we just got to duplicate

21:55

that, which is pretty adya

21:58

to think about that, But that's your where

22:00

it is now. It used to be we

22:02

wanted to you had to have the qualifications.

22:05

Now you just gotta have the cool. My

22:08

thing is great. So the Rich

22:10

Paul rule, they bring that with trying to light on

22:12

it, and it goes away because

22:15

they knew that was not right. They knew

22:17

that that was just something

22:19

that I that I felt like they put these stipulations

22:22

in these restrictions and regulations

22:24

about what right that not in

22:26

this because this is the

22:29

one business that we're in that

22:32

that actually don't apply. Now, don't

22:34

get me wrong, I'm not for anyone

22:37

just jumping into being a representation

22:39

business because it's a big business. You

22:41

are advising young men

22:44

and women at the highest level. You're

22:46

doing contracts the highest level, so

22:48

the capabilities have to be there, but

22:52

you don't necessarily have to have capabilities with

22:55

the degree capabilities could just be capabilities,

22:58

right. You know it

23:00

wasn't you or me. It was Mark McCormick who

23:02

wrote a great book called What You Don't Learn at Harvard

23:04

Business School, and you

23:07

are the personification of that. But

23:09

but my journey came through experience.

23:12

Like people don't understand my dad. I worked

23:14

in my dad's store since I was

23:16

like six years of age. Right

23:18

there, you learn customer service. Where in the

23:20

service business you learn that, you

23:23

know, whether it's you learn marketing. I

23:25

was there when the friedolay Man came in and

23:27

he's introducing the coup

23:30

ranch to Rito. This is so

23:32

now He's explained to you why

23:34

we want to showcase this blue bag

23:37

when the red bag has been selling for the loan.

23:39

You know, Richard's so interesting. When

23:41

I was in um High

23:44

school, maybe I was a freshman in college,

23:46

I knew that I was going to be I knew I was

23:48

going to go to law school. At that point, I

23:51

also knew that I didn't want to practice law forever.

23:53

I knew that for me it was a means to an end.

23:56

But I knew I wanted to go to law school. And I

23:58

said to my dad, add, can you call

24:00

your lawyer and see if I can get a job working

24:02

in a law firm, you know, as an not

24:05

I wasn't ready to be an intern, but you know, as a gopher

24:07

as in the mail whatever, you know, just

24:09

to be around a law firm. And my dad

24:12

called his lawyer and said the lawyer's

24:14

name was Max. I'll never forget, and he said, Max

24:16

Michael would like to have a job working in a law

24:18

firm because he wants to go to law school ultimately.

24:21

And Max's advice to my dad was not

24:24

what he should do. Let him go, park

24:26

cars, let him go. We'll learn how to deal with people.

24:29

He can. He's got plenty of time to be an intern

24:31

and a law clerk and all of that right

24:34

now. The best thing he could do is go learn

24:36

how to deal with people. And interestingly

24:38

enough, the job I took that summer instead

24:40

of working in a law firm was a camp counselor.

24:43

And for me, I learned

24:46

through the lens of kids. You know,

24:48

I was I was as a kid, I was a pretty good

24:50

baseball player. So sports and baseball

24:53

and whatnot we're really important

24:55

to me, and particularly baseball as a

24:57

kid. And so I

24:59

said, you know what, this is the way I can give

25:01

back. Even as a young person, I

25:03

gave back to the community. I literally found

25:06

a team at a little league that didn't have

25:08

a parent able to manage it, and I became

25:10

a manager of a little league team. I didn't

25:12

have a kid. I was in you know, I was senior

25:14

in high school or maybe a freshman in college. That

25:17

was the road I took because I said, I

25:19

took that advice and I said, I'm going to learn

25:22

more by working with people, and you

25:24

know, being a salesman in a men's clothing

25:26

store and being a camp counselor and doing

25:28

jobs like that. Just so it's so interesting

25:30

to have a master's in denning with people from

25:33

top to bottom, from the worst to

25:35

the to the to the most. You know, qualify,

25:38

you've got a PhD. You got more than a master's.

25:41

And so you know, I think that I

25:43

tell this all the time because you know, by

25:46

us and when I say us, you know what

25:49

I've been able to accomplish, what Mavericks

25:51

been able to accomplish. Obviously, um,

25:54

you know Lebron being on the court, and

25:56

you know, people kind of lump us all together. Sometimes

26:00

that's our start. We started together and

26:02

and obviously Randy as well.

26:05

But they look at it and say, okay,

26:07

well he did that, we

26:09

should be able to do it. I said, well, wait a minute. In

26:12

order for you to be me and your twenty

26:15

you gotta be willing to be me. And year one

26:18

you don't. You don't start here,

26:19

you work your way up. And in

26:22

year one there was nothing for me to do. I'll

26:24

never forget the conversation when

26:26

I asked, well, what am I own a salary

26:29

to do? And I never made more than forty eight

26:31

thousand dollars a year, and it

26:33

was nothing. There's

26:36

zero for you to do, And

26:38

so right in and there I

26:40

had to make my way. I worked at Nike for four

26:42

years understanding whether

26:45

it was brand strategy, marketing

26:48

the athlete, the voice of the athlete, cutting

26:50

so sneaker. You know, I can.

26:53

I can go into any shoot

26:55

company and work on their side

26:58

as well as on the side for for for

27:00

my client, and so that dual

27:02

threat people. People

27:05

don't understand the experience and the capabilities

27:07

can bind. And I'm not discouraging

27:10

anyone from I want

27:12

people to be encouraged

27:14

and to be motivated, motivated to

27:17

come into this space. But don't

27:19

come into the space with an entitlement

27:21

because you're sibling or

27:24

because you're a friend. Come

27:26

into this space with the understanding

27:28

that I'm not gonna get rich overnight.

27:31

That's not gonna happen. And I

27:33

have to know what I don't know. So

27:36

therefore, my biggest value to this

27:38

person that's allowing me to have an

27:40

opportunity is to understand

27:42

and to know what I don't know. So therefore,

27:44

if I can identify what I don't know, then

27:47

I can go and allocate somebody

27:50

that actually does know. And

27:52

that's a smart decision by

27:54

me, for my

27:56

client or for someone that I'm working alongside

28:00

everyone, especially in my space and come

28:02

from my world. We have

28:04

this mentality that we want to do it ourselves

28:07

and no one does it. Look at all these people in this car.

28:10

It's not just Rich and Michael on the

28:12

car, because no one does it by

28:15

themselves. But that

28:17

was the mentor. And it's a trick, right,

28:20

It's a trick because what one thing about

28:22

doing it by yourself? You know what that does?

28:25

That makes you devalue infrastructure,

28:28

that makes you devalue expertise,

28:31

and that's not a good thing. Yeah, Rich

28:33

it's it's interesting. I grew up with a friend

28:36

who the way I described him to somebody

28:38

once was this was a guy who was always looking

28:40

for the easy way out, and so

28:42

was I. But what I learned early was the

28:45

only way you get to the easy way out is to work

28:47

really hard, and then you can find

28:49

the easy way out. But it's not easy to find the

28:51

easy way out. You got you gotta work hard to find

28:53

it. Yeah, And and working

28:55

hard comes in several

28:57

packages. Going back to the rich

29:00

Paul Roue, I just think that that was more

29:02

based upon trying to discourage

29:05

someone to continue

29:07

down the path that they

29:09

that they inspired to be. And

29:12

so discouragement, I say this

29:14

all the time, has definitely killed more

29:16

people than guns. And we know

29:18

how many people guns have killed. But discouragement

29:20

is just as bad. And so I don't see

29:22

here today in my seat to discourage

29:24

anyone. I built the business that actually

29:28

has an open doorpot. I don't care if you

29:30

have a degree from Michigan or

29:32

if you have a felony. I

29:34

really don't give a shit about either one. What

29:36

I care about is who you are as a

29:38

person, your ability to come in and be willing

29:40

to learn and listen, and you're and develop

29:43

good habits and capabilities and how

29:45

you fit within our team well and

29:48

and and and that's the great outlook.

29:50

And I have to add in as a plug for

29:52

the Wolverines. I'm glad you chose Michigan

29:54

because I think you know this. All three of my kids

29:56

went to uh, the University of Michigan. So

29:58

go Blue. I'll give you that. But you know where

30:00

I stand on a book. I

30:03

do. I do so rich. You

30:05

and I made a similar decision a couple of years

30:08

apart, but we made a similar decision

30:10

to to you know, partner

30:13

and and and aligned with United

30:15

Talent Agency. I know my

30:17

motivation. I'm curious what yours

30:20

was and what was what was the attraction?

30:22

And you know it's interesting because,

30:25

as I say, we both made a similar decision.

30:27

Both had you know, fortunately built

30:29

successful businesses in their

30:32

own right. And you know I'd sold once

30:34

before, as you know, but I bought it back

30:36

with you t A. You know, you made that decision

30:39

in what was it

30:41

that you saw that would enhance

30:44

the Clutch story as part of the United Talent

30:46

Agency. And you know as well,

30:48

the opportunity which I don't mind sharing

30:50

on this call, on this discussion

30:53

of us working together, but but generally,

30:55

what was what was the motivation for you?

30:57

And in u t A, Well, it was

31:00

a couple of things. For me, I kind of foresaw

31:02

what the business was going. And although

31:05

I was and we were at Klutch, was considered,

31:07

you know, the the cool kid on

31:09

the block, I never was complacent

31:12

in that position. And so what

31:15

I the athletes is always

31:17

evolving as the world evolves.

31:20

And I had a choice to either

31:22

I wanted to grow, and I wanted to grow from

31:25

a perspective of infrastructure and

31:27

expertise. And so it's

31:30

a couple of ways you're doing that. One

31:32

was partnering with someone who already had

31:34

that in house. The other was going out

31:36

and raising capital and then

31:39

finding the people to do so. And

31:42

when I sat down with Jamie and we had a conversation,

31:44

and actually Jim Burkes had a conversation

31:47

with a partner of

31:50

a business associative mind

31:52

Uh and Paul and Paul

31:54

and Jim had a conversation which led to Jammy

31:57

and I had the conversation. And when I

31:59

and my first sit down, I actually I like Jammie

32:01

a lot, not knowing if I was going to go

32:03

down the road of doing business with him. I just

32:06

like the person, and through the conversation

32:09

he understood

32:11

where I was trying to go. We had

32:13

some great dialogue and I

32:15

think, you know, we got the deal done in probably

32:17

sixty days. And it wasn't more so about

32:20

finance for me than it was about

32:23

being able to scale properly and grow

32:25

my business properly and being

32:27

able to, if necessary,

32:30

represent the athlete holistically.

32:32

Every athlete is not going to need the resources

32:35

that we now have with this clutch.

32:37

U t a partnership, but for the

32:39

one that does, I wanted to be prepared

32:42

and we wanted to be prepared. And so the

32:45

having that partnership has

32:48

been great. It will continue to be great. I think

32:51

we're hitting our stride in a way in which

32:54

for that client that needs it one

32:57

department or two departments or every

33:00

department great. And you never know,

33:02

these things come up. These things come up, and

33:04

every everybody is different, and our younger

33:06

players are evolving and eventually

33:09

they don't want to become entrepreneurs

33:11

and want to be in executive producing

33:13

fam and television, so on and so forth. And

33:16

then when you came about

33:18

it just even added a more of

33:20

an expertise to what we do. And

33:23

this is something that we don't from like, you know,

33:25

we're not out there saying, oh, look

33:27

what we did, Look what we got. We got doing that. If

33:30

you're inside the end phone, then

33:33

you're able to take advantage and

33:35

be so far ahead of your

33:38

peers in my opinion, because

33:40

of this expertise and it's abundance and

33:43

endless part of resources

33:46

that you have. And I think one thing

33:48

that people don't understand,

33:50

and especially from an athlete perspective,

33:52

and this is what's really tricky in my In

33:54

my world, athletes have

33:57

to lead with ego. But

34:00

that ego drives a competitive

34:03

nature, which is great for

34:05

your sport on the field, on

34:07

the court, right in

34:10

business is not so great. And

34:13

so you have to understand how to balance

34:15

that and then pulled that ego

34:18

cape off and put on

34:21

more of a business minded cape to really

34:23

value the people within the

34:25

walls of the business.

34:29

I've counseled people my whole career

34:31

that the the successful

34:34

people that I know in every walk of life

34:37

have an ego and people

34:39

have to A person's got an ego, I go, I'm

34:42

not I'm kind of not interested in people

34:44

who don't have an ego. What I've always

34:46

tried to counsel people. You talked about it in terms

34:48

of an ego cape. I love that. I've

34:51

always said it, if you don't have an

34:53

ego, you never get

34:55

into the room. But once

34:58

you get into the room, you got leave

35:00

your ego outside, because it's

35:02

your ego that gets you there. But

35:04

if you let your ego then get in the way of

35:06

what you accomplish or try to accomplish

35:08

in the proverbial room,

35:11

whatever that means. Your room, maybe the

35:13

court. It may be in front of

35:15

a camera, it may be behind

35:17

a camera. It maybe noodling

35:20

on on on representation.

35:22

From an agent perspective, it's

35:24

any of those things. You don't get

35:27

successful without an ego. But again,

35:29

the people who know how to check that ego

35:31

once they've gotten to the room,

35:34

that's the people who win all the time

35:37

on the court, behind the you know, think

35:39

about it just in the in the in sport. If

35:42

if if it's all about me, all about

35:44

my ego, all about my taking that shot,

35:48

that you're never going to be as successful as the person

35:50

who has a collaborative approach and the

35:52

egos put aside in

35:54

the effort to win right, because

35:59

you are in control of

36:02

what's to be. You

36:04

know, if this was Apple right and

36:06

you were and you were a colder, well

36:09

that's different. But you

36:11

are in control of the sport

36:13

because it's me that's

36:16

on the court and I'm scoring thirty or on

36:18

the field, I'm throwing touchdowns and running for touchdowns.

36:21

And so what that causes you to do is

36:24

it causes you to buy. You push

36:26

all your chips in on that ability.

36:29

And what it causes the people around you to

36:31

do is say it's say,

36:34

okay, all

36:37

we need is actually this person

36:39

because they're doing the actual

36:42

act right there. They're scoring

36:45

the touchdown or they're they're they're making

36:47

the basket, but they're forgetting

36:49

one thing. Once you come off

36:51

that field, there's a different

36:53

business practice that an

36:55

expertise that you have to have within

36:58

and that takes a different

37:00

thought process. And just because

37:03

you're able to get that person

37:06

on the phone every day or tell

37:08

this person where to be, don't mean

37:10

you have the capabilities to actually

37:13

do the job necessary going forward

37:15

to build the business. And

37:17

that's where in my world people

37:20

running into a very very big problem.

37:23

So so so rich I want to I want to kind

37:25

of, you know, wrap on on one topic

37:27

here. UM. I know, recently,

37:30

in partnership with the et you you

37:32

produced you know, an original

37:35

documentary I think it was

37:37

called the Clutch Academy. UM, talk

37:40

a little bit about the Clutch Academy and

37:42

and and the purpose of that, because

37:45

look, we're in we're in a world right

37:47

now, we're just about every conversation

37:50

that we both have involved

37:52

content, and we talk about content

37:55

and commerce. We talk about

37:57

content and culture, we talk about

38:00

content and community. You got

38:02

into the content business, and you obviously

38:04

in sports representation, you're in

38:06

the content business because the talent

38:09

that we represent, that you represent, they're

38:11

creating content. Content maybe

38:13

on the court, that may be behind the camera all

38:16

the same. But what what was the motivation

38:18

on the Clutch Academy and and as

38:20

it achieved what you wanted through the utilization

38:23

of content. I just I just

38:25

wanted to allow it like a sneak peek into

38:27

what we actually do. You know, you get

38:29

into a lot of these rooms and you know, again

38:32

the competition they just tell lies, you

38:34

know, and so content is king.

38:36

You know, content is the new market. I

38:39

tell families that all the time, like you

38:41

know, you know brands, they

38:43

think different today and they thought twenty years

38:46

ago, ten years ago for that matter,

38:48

and so I would submit it's

38:50

ten weeks ago. It's changing on a

38:53

on a pretty dynamic basis. I

38:55

wanted to do a number of things right. It was pretty

38:57

layer in my decision behind it. Number

39:00

want to give the kids a platform to allow people

39:02

to understand who they are, not

39:04

just as ball players, but as people. I

39:07

think nowadays, you

39:09

know, you want to get into having

39:11

an understanding of who that person is,

39:13

why they do what they do, why they think the way they think,

39:16

what's important to them, and so on and so forth. So

39:18

that was me and us as a company

39:20

providing them a platform

39:22

Number one. Number two give

39:25

a little inside of who we are as a company,

39:27

how we think, how we differentiate

39:30

from the so called competitors

39:32

out there, and what's

39:35

important to us. And I think people were able.

39:37

If you actually watched it, you were able

39:39

to see that, you know what this

39:41

group really cares. This is not just TV,

39:44

this is this is real, This is genuine,

39:46

this is authentic. You saw them there

39:48

that I don't hold no punches. I hope

39:51

myself accountable. I hope my team accountable,

39:54

and we hold the the the

39:56

client accountable because you can't

39:59

walk on X shels in this business,

40:01

you know which most agents does. Most

40:04

agents, you know, the client wants you to

40:06

run and jump over a boy wire offense. Okay,

40:08

how fast we want to do it. It's just, you know,

40:10

like that you see in the movies, that's

40:12

not who I am, that's not what we represent

40:15

um And so I wanted to kind of showcase that.

40:17

And I also wanted to allow the

40:19

younger people, male, female,

40:22

whatever, who no matter what color

40:24

you are, who aspired to be in this space

40:27

to have a little bit of understanding direction

40:30

on what it actually is really about. And

40:32

I've gotten phone calls from

40:34

young men that are now agents

40:37

that are competing, you

40:40

know, or not competing but recruiting

40:42

against us in the in the marketplace and whatnot.

40:45

And you know what, and they said, man, we really appreciate

40:47

it. You helped us so much. And that's

40:49

really what it's about. You know, we can't represent

40:51

every player. That's not gonna happen. You only

40:54

represent those allow you to represent them, which is

40:56

great. But we accomplished

40:58

what we wanted to accomplish. I didn't

41:00

I wanted it to be tasteful. I didn't want

41:02

it to be a reality like

41:05

type drama type of thing because that's not

41:07

what I'm about. And so it was a lot

41:09

of hard work. It was a roller

41:11

closure of emotions, but

41:13

it was fun to do UM and

41:15

and the families. I was glad to do it for

41:17

the families. I enjoy it. And you know, we're

41:20

launching Clutch Originals, which we are

41:22

going into the content space. We're going to produce our own

41:24

content, original content UM

41:26

as well as aligned with you know,

41:29

some some different UM writers

41:31

and things like that and by projects

41:33

and so on and so forth. And so what I'm

41:35

looking at and what I wanted to

41:38

create holistically was

41:41

a branded house, you know, not

41:43

a house of brands. And so I think

41:45

we have the ability to do so. We

41:48

got a great team UM and

41:50

so we're still a very young

41:52

company. It's only we's only we've

41:54

only been here for ten years, which is

41:57

very young. And uh, We'll continue

41:59

to to challenge ourselves to get better

42:01

and do better and continue to surround

42:03

ourselves with people such as yourself, Michael,

42:05

who are o g s in the game

42:08

so to speak, and have been around for

42:10

a long time and kind of understand

42:12

the dudes and don'ts and lean on you when

42:14

when we have to and when we need to

42:16

to to better our education in the space

42:19

because we don't know everything. You know, I tell people all

42:21

the time, I don't know everything. I don't pretend to know

42:23

everything. But guess what I do know. I

42:25

know I can pick up somebody who's willing

42:27

to answer my phone call that does

42:29

know what I don't know. And that's the power

42:32

right there. That's it. And and and rich

42:34

you know, the idea of using Clutch Academy

42:36

as a as a as a way for people

42:38

to get insight into what you've done and

42:40

how you do it and how Clutch

42:43

operates and your motivation.

42:45

I want to thank you profusely for

42:48

giving this audience that same

42:51

opportunity to understand not

42:53

only where you came from, but where you are

42:55

and where you're going. No, thank

42:57

you, thanks for having me on it. I'm

43:02

Michael Casson. Thanks for listening to Good

43:04

Company. Good

43:06

Company is a production of I Heart Radio.

43:08

A special thanks to Lena Peterson, chief brand

43:11

Officer and Managing director of Media Link for

43:13

her vision on Good Company, and to Jen Seely,

43:15

Vice president Marketing Communications of media

43:17

link for programming, amazing talent and contentm