0:00

what a creative does they seen exceptional?

0:02

say this is an opportunity, this is something

0:04

that could be, how do i get more

0:06

of that? and then the other course often have

0:08

is what we call perspective into

0:11

other people's perspectives and say, what would i do if

0:13

i was this person and that is a story and

0:15

if, you know, a friend, whose very empathetic, very

0:17

curious about other people, is able to tell these stories

0:19

that have a large cast characters

0:22

and that is a huge sign, creativity

0:27

the question what is a

0:29

, not your own

0:31

story by the story that you really had

0:34

the power to change not just

0:36

your mind mind your life

0:39

for the fact that you're listening to this podcast

0:41

right now tells me likely already know the

0:43

power of a compelling story

0:45

great storytelling and great writing

0:48

can persuade and inspire and ultimately

0:50

grab hold of the hearts and minds of who

0:53

ever is listening reading so

0:55

whether you call yourself a lover of classic

0:58

literature an avid reader or neither

1:00

you can probably think of a book or story

1:03

that you've read

1:04

or heard at some point

1:06

that's completely changed your outlook

1:08

on life are given you much needed perspective

1:11

the stories although the act may seem

1:13

like second nature is a powerful

1:15

tool that we all can use the

1:18

deep in the way we learn and interact with one

1:20

another and ourselves and

1:22

help us find more meaning and direction

1:24

in our own lives and to bring

1:27

the power storytelling to light further

1:29

and break down the science behind it

1:31

and him back behind it is today's

1:33

guest singers fletcher professor

1:35

of story science at ohio

1:37

state's project narrative the

1:39

world's leading academic think tank

1:41

for the study of how stories work

1:44

so as a practitioner story science

1:46

great story scientists by the way idol

1:48

loves that title china was it was my

1:50

son and guess as guess as in neuroscience

1:53

from the university of michigan and a phd

1:55

in literature from yell and his fascinating

1:57

research it employs a mix of like

2:00

the to a experiment literary history

2:02

and rhetorical theory to explore

2:05

be psychological effects cognitive

2:07

behavioral therapeutic of

2:09

different narrative technologies

2:12

the news research on resilience and creativity

2:15

with the us army special ops community

2:18

has just been published in harvard business

2:20

review and the new york academy

2:22

of sciences and today he joins

2:25

me as one of the world's leading experts

2:27

on the psychological effects of

2:29

narrative and literature to

2:31

dive deeper into the science of stories

2:33

and explore how we all could use

2:36

the stories we are told and

2:38

tell ourselves to better our lives

2:40

and stein more meaning joy and hope

2:42

and our chat you'll hear us talk more about the nitty gritty

2:45

of narrative theory and his new book

2:47

on the science of stories wonder works

2:49

and explore how storytelling

2:51

and specific techniques that writers

2:53

and storytellers have used for time

2:56

immortal is a powerful

2:58

driver of change self efficacy

3:00

and connections that we all need

3:03

an hour ago not lies and in our

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child

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no advantage and

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this

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we have this conversation you

4:28

are currently professor story science and

4:31

states project narrative as

4:33

you want to get into what that is but

4:36

there's been a really meandering road

4:39

to get your but maybe me and reason the outside

4:41

looking in but not so much from the inside looking

4:43

out we start back in the early

4:45

days when you actually studied hard sciences

4:48

came out and then you and

4:50

reading a chunk of time the med school

4:52

narrow physiology lab i'm

4:55

so curious what first draws

4:57

you to the world of hard science which all

4:59

of new feels like it's really rule

5:01

based fairly rational then as

5:03

you almost like leave that behind first

5:05

completely different context

5:07

yeah well of course i left it because i'm

5:09

i had a crisis at a crisis of faith in

5:11

what i was doing but i was in there and the first

5:13

place largely because i'm an

5:15

immigrant a come from nijmegen family you

5:17

know the first half as you get here is

5:20

you emphasize education and there's

5:22

the sense that america's this land of opportunity and go

5:24

anywhere as long as you have good grades

5:26

you go to a good school and you are signs saying

5:29

so i very much was have

5:31

dialed in my my parents on

5:34

science as the kind of

5:36

future of humanity and that's the

5:38

doctors do anything science space

5:41

study science and i was genuinely

5:43

interested in certain areas of science to particularly

5:45

i was interested in the human brain because i mean

5:47

to me the greatest more on the greatest mystery

5:49

on earth is other humans and

5:51

i just kind of wondered understand like where was all this magic

5:54

coming from it also whereas or the harm

5:56

coming from cause i mean as humans we create

5:58

worlds we destroy worlds

5:59

the

6:00

i got a got in there probably because of my parents pushing

6:02

but also because i was generally really interested

6:05

in human brain so i made some interesting

6:07

starting point because the whether he describes

6:09

the human brain surgery

6:11

or else had read destroy world's is there's

6:14

not what i think about when i think about like how

6:16

does the good body workout is the

6:18

system of the brain work with his de niro physiology

6:21

of of the chemistry of the endocrinology of a

6:23

day the electricity of

6:26

as a from the very beginning there was a bigger

6:28

contest for you it wasn't just

6:30

let me really understand what's happening underneath her

6:33

how is a suspect in the way that we live in the world

6:35

and and the way that we treat the world we live yeah

6:38

and then idea of creating the world i mean i think

6:40

a lotta times when we get into science you're talking

6:42

about it is reason and rules i think a lot of

6:45

times we think of sciences a kind of disenchantment

6:47

there was about seeking a lot of things to see mysterious

6:50

mean giving us the formula or giving us

6:52

the chemicals that explain everything me

6:55

i always think of signs little bit as the other way

6:57

around i mean i think about it as

7:00

a sign of door insert the magic

7:02

into the mystery and a particular as far as

7:04

soon as a concern and what's really interesting

7:06

to me about humans is our imagination i

7:08

mean we just kind of refused to be prisoners of the

7:10

moments we we were born

7:13

into this world and we've done nothing since

7:15

the moment of our birth but try and change the worth

7:17

trying chains the conditions and we inherited

7:19

and where did that drive com from and

7:21

beyond the dry wit is the ability

7:24

to make it happen because you look around the world

7:26

i mean the world now so the way it was a hundred years ago

7:28

another way it was a thousand years ago another way was ten thousand

7:30

years ago and and almost all that is because of human

7:32

hands and human brains human minds

7:34

human hearts and so that's me is just

7:36

what is so exciting about our species and i

7:38

think we live in a moment where there's a lot of negativity

7:41

around humans love to spare lot of burn

7:43

out about exhausted lot of anger ah

7:46

but to me there's this oysters

7:48

underlying sense that we can do anything

7:50

because we have done things that seemed impossible

7:53

and so to me size is just kind of the key

7:55

into that and it's about finding

7:58

a way city that just

8:00

sort of big extraordinary beautiful same

8:03

and breathe a little closer within reach so

8:05

it can be trained and taught and has

8:07

on a little in a little more organized

8:09

fastened to the next generation yeah

8:12

i research as a as it's funny i've i've

8:14

gone didn't do down the rabbit hole of up

8:16

as a psychology of less size seven

8:18

years or so the more i learn

8:20

about it and the have plenty of friends who are leaders

8:22

in the field and really deconstructing the research with

8:24

them the more i learn about

8:26

it the more i keep thinking to myself i've also

8:29

done a fair amount of exploration of eastern philosophy

8:31

and traditions in buddhism and on

8:34

i keep saying to myself you're you're giving me

8:36

the scientific basis for why

8:38

things that people have been doing this in philosophy

8:40

worth four thousands of years now

8:43

we've actually always known all

8:45

of these different things but people always trying

8:48

to figure that but while it's how and why

8:50

does it work because and rican weekend

8:52

package it we can recreate it we can train that

8:54

we can as he make it more sensible to a wider

8:56

number people whatever you're saying about

8:59

south eastern philosophy i mean in general so huge part

9:01

of my career is seeking incisive been around

9:03

for thousands of years and philosophy and

9:05

literature and wisdom literature the

9:07

water was incisive been actually thrown

9:10

out of our modern education system which has become

9:12

interested other things and

9:14

a big part of what i want to say is no actually there's

9:16

a reason that that suspect that philosophy

9:18

and literature was around for thousands of years really works

9:21

the things that seem not logical or

9:23

even irrational to us actually

9:25

work with the human brain and you know i had

9:27

my own transformation mom with positive psychology

9:29

i was i getting a keynote address so

9:31

we're years ago at a neuroscience conference

9:33

and i was approached by james while ski who's the head

9:36

of us you know see pennsylvania's

9:38

am graduate program deposit psychology and they

9:40

needed me to mourn selekman and at first i me

9:42

i honestly thought as a little bit of a calls i

9:45

was like all these guys have never about positivity

9:47

all the time since really out of touch

9:49

with reality and then you actually

9:51

start to do it he said look the research to realize

9:54

no actually gratitude is the

9:56

best way to bounce back from back setback

9:58

it's setback it's just tenants magical

10:00

thinking it's it's it's it's different for magical thinking

10:03

and and a lot of that optimism

10:06

and a lot of that resilience and eighty fragility

10:08

is baked into literature is baked into philosophy

10:11

and i think one of the real viruses science can

10:13

be to kind of bring that back because

10:16

we live in a rule that i think prioritizes logic

10:18

over emotion nowadays and

10:20

and we as a result of raising lot of stunted

10:23

selves the don't know how to handle our emotions

10:25

and of those that are emotions are actually one of our

10:27

greatest tools and skill sets

10:30

and so i completely agree that science

10:32

can be a way to recover that ancient wisdom

10:34

and often times not you know replace

10:36

it or upgrade it for just remind

10:39

us of the brilliance already on a bookshelf

10:42

yeah that reconnecting to or past weekend

10:44

as into a we already are always known

10:46

but often had stifled the on to let

10:48

your path so you end up

10:50

going from a neuroses lab to

10:53

then deciding a kiss a logical next

10:55

step for me is go and get my pc and literature

10:57

focusing on shakespeare yeah

10:59

and

11:00

looking a little bit more that what was underneath the

11:02

hood and that decision because it the i mean

11:04

clearly a broader curiosity

11:07

just about the human condition and the about

11:09

a year you've reference stories and also to

11:11

way shapes and forms why

11:13

in particular focus on

11:16

literature and my shakespeare in particular

11:19

so i wish i could say that i had a kind of coherent

11:21

plan when i was making this decision at the

11:23

age of twenty one but i did not have a coherent plan

11:25

of i think i was very lucky that it works out and i think

11:27

i was lucky is a lot of people around me was are kind

11:29

of wiser and guided me interactions can help me on

11:31

my way but the equally as i said earlier

11:33

it was born out of a moment of crisis i was working

11:35

in a science lab where everyone was brilliant com

11:38

essa very forced into warfare we were figuring

11:40

out because we have brain cells communicate with each other the

11:44

whole model we have for the human brain was essentially the

11:46

brain was a computer it was a sense making

11:48

apparatus that it took in data any crimes

11:50

that data to make decisions that

11:52

it was essentially kind of version of what we now think of is

11:54

a i and that just wasn't

11:57

my spurs my own brain my breathing work like that

11:59

most the brings us around we didn't really work like that we

12:01

didn't taken a lot of data and then we also

12:03

capable of of things the computers work able was

12:05

ah there's all these emotions you know in terms of empathy

12:08

love hope but also creativity

12:10

imagination then i go to middle of

12:12

these are other things which are clearly going on in the human brain

12:14

and because we're so obsessed with thinking about the brains the computer

12:17

we can't figure out how they're working as we

12:19

can't figure out how to explain them or how to teach them

12:21

how to train them so i thought i want

12:23

to go somewhere where people really understand emotion

12:26

and they really understand creativity and

12:28

me that was literature and

12:31

to me i thought well i'll go to yale and

12:33

study shakespeare because that's kind of the the

12:35

crucible the kind of cauldron for this and it actually

12:37

turned out to be something of an unusual decision for they got

12:39

to yeah i discovered the people at yale literature didn't release

12:41

that he emotions snorted everything that is creativity

12:44

and if there was a kind of a a collision

12:47

moment there and also deceiving indication

12:49

of how out of touch i was with yale english

12:52

and kind of how in retrospect goofy

12:54

a decision it was i don't i was that

12:56

he she's you're not because i thought of him is the greatest

12:58

writer of all time i thought of him as a

13:00

simpler writer though you know my thought

13:03

process was you know the same way to scientists you can

13:05

go back in time when things were simpler to figure

13:07

out how more complicated things work in the present

13:10

so i thought you know i'm not going to start with this

13:12

really kind of you know complicated technology exists

13:14

now i'm going to clinical work backwards to the

13:16

seventeenth century and and types understand

13:18

the basic nuts and bolts as as initial are

13:20

trusting events you can imagine how thrilled

13:22

with the family were yeah when i phone them that i

13:24

was years that he shakes because i thought he was simpler

13:27

and more recent authors south skill

13:29

that was just the kind of beginning of a series of sharks and jobs

13:32

in is kind of transition the i

13:34

would imagine among states are you sitting in class

13:36

also surly asking all these surveys

13:38

and like deconstruction oriented class

13:40

insightful how's that working was at work in

13:42

what's really going on here in a way

13:45

that maybe

13:47

a little bit different than your typical soon there so

13:50

i have to be honest they tried to throw me out

13:52

after my first year they were so of offs and

13:54

you know now now since then there's been a reconciliation

13:57

you know by the mean they were appalled i mean

13:59

i and and they were also wants reasons i mean first

14:01

of all am i just a lot of the literature

14:03

we read i've since he was very good you

14:06

know we'd realization works you know what

14:08

i'd say well i don't understand this it all the since terrible

14:10

why are we reading this you know a lot

14:12

of shakespeare's plays degrees only ones

14:14

i was like oldies are as good as his later ones and and

14:16

you say things like this in this kind of considered to be that

14:19

religious but one of the things that i

14:21

think came out of it is is is the real value

14:24

of innocence and inexperience in these situations

14:27

i'm any because i hadn't side have

14:29

been in kind of the cult

14:31

of literature for years and years and years i did

14:33

actually have a different way of seeing and

14:36

and i think that's something that we don't get enough

14:38

of in the modern world we don't get enough of

14:41

of getting people who are really rookies and

14:43

then putting the next to true experts and

14:45

then having that that collision of intelligence

14:48

so i was very fortunate that they did not throw me

14:50

out after year and they put up with me

14:52

i'm but yes to your points i mean

14:54

i ask those questions they didn't have answers for i mean

14:56

i said well why is it the when i read as i feel

14:58

joy and you know

15:00

they would say well i mean i don't have the us to that extent

15:02

the has existed must be in the words and

15:05

i don't believe that actually i don't believe that the reason

15:07

she scruffy his choice because of the words he uses

15:09

i mean i believe that they're different reasons ah

15:11

he creates joy because words or something that actually

15:13

computer processor there's something more going on

15:15

there so he was a lot of things like that

15:17

and there's a lot of kind of sputters and miss firings

15:19

for long periods of time but i just kind of kept in

15:22

there because i knew at the end of the day that

15:24

what was happening in my brain was happening the brains of everyone

15:26

around me and so i knew that the phenomena was

15:28

real and i just had to keep pushing find

15:30

the answer it's so interesting read because

15:33

i think of these things are so many people and they read shakespeare

15:36

especially when so many are introducing yeah like that

15:38

the classic high school education class

15:41

and it's sort of like okay let's take

15:43

this couple sentences it's take this page the

15:46

train translate into the way that like you actually

15:48

what is essentially means you and

15:50

then memorize it memorized versus he can spit

15:53

it back on the task then i wonder if surly

15:55

to traditional way that that we

15:57

most of us and mean suited were introduced

16:00

any form of literature created

16:03

a sense of almost the opposite

16:05

of what you're describing a lot a lack of curiosity

16:07

a lack of wonder alaska what

16:09

does this mean and and was it made me feel this way more

16:12

just almost like a brutalizing

16:14

experience of like what do i need to do to

16:16

just get through this so i don't ever

16:18

have to revisit these things again

16:21

it would seem this tragic to me the

16:23

way you describe is exactly right in it's the horror of

16:25

our modern education system i mean sister

16:28

has been used for centuries as an almost imperial

16:30

tool i mean the british based week sport as shakespeare

16:32

and and compel many other countries who are

16:34

non native english speakers to learn shakespeare there's

16:37

a sense that he has been used as an indoctrination

16:40

instrument and the same thing course we get in school we read

16:42

and i meet your sense of shame and confusion

16:45

and frustration and anger at the literature

16:47

and all these kinds of things and and we get this

16:49

anxieties i just have to please my teacher i just have to get

16:51

it right i just do it's expected of me i'm

16:53

so actually when i teach in an empty go off

16:55

and scientists are borderline heretical i

16:58

mean i've been teaching shakespeare from us when years

17:00

i've never assign shakespeare in a class once

17:02

i don't assign sister i ask spring in their favorite

17:05

stories isis you know it's it's you know

17:07

if you like tv show you like as

17:09

a comics if you like a song what's

17:11

the art the resonates most with you and we start

17:13

to break that song down and talk about what's going

17:15

on their brain we talk about as you know the neurosciences

17:18

psychology why that's working in the brain and then

17:20

i leveraged that and say you know what's

17:22

happening here that was invented

17:24

by this other authors two hundred years ago

17:26

or four hundred years ago and lot of times

17:29

the stuff that's going on traces

17:31

back to shakespeare or before and that allows me

17:33

to hand him a copy of hamlet or hand them a copy that

17:35

nuclear patents so we get into shakespeare

17:37

not at the beginning but as kind

17:40

of part of a journey and it makes sense

17:42

them because that journey starts with them

17:44

their own experience

17:45

as opposed to the institution prescribing

17:48

being and it's empty kind of replicate itself

17:50

by forcing this culture on that yeah

17:53

i'm is such a different way to approach it as

17:55

serve like you start with why

17:57

is a story or moment or palmer's

17:59

own the directly relevant was

18:01

it make you feel something right now and then

18:04

introducing the notion of our there are mechanisms

18:06

and here that have existed for time immoral

18:08

and and wouldn't it be cool to see

18:10

trace it back and see where it really came from so there's

18:13

like you're planting a relevance and curiosity

18:15

see in something where there's really

18:17

strong context for them and saying oh now it's actually

18:19

related back to this other thing that by

18:22

the way just have no has been never really

18:24

long time i love that approach to it

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it also tells me when i think about our

21:45

shakespeare particular have an old friend of mine

21:47

who grew up in a tough neighborhood was

21:50

on a not on a great track as a human

21:52

being is and a teacher

21:55

pull them aside one day answered like forcibly

21:58

introduced him to shakespeare and

22:00

there was something about his brain dead

22:02

literally just melted down and transformed

22:05

in the moment and he to this day now

22:08

well into his adult life is a huge

22:10

huge and santa of angeles he helps run

22:12

at like six or festival every year they say

22:15

i remember interviewing him actually onstage

22:17

survivor of about four hundred people then

22:20

he says we're we're talking about a slice and

22:22

and then he starts to share the story of his introduction

22:25

to say spare and then he starts no

22:27

he stands and he is just dropped

22:30

into character like playing a role

22:32

and quoting and like reading the lines honestly

22:36

didn't understand a lot of

22:38

what he was saying yeah i could

22:40

have been blown off my chair as as

22:42

with everybody else in the room there's something

22:45

so palpably emotional in

22:47

the it occurred to me there's something beyond

22:50

because we didn't i didn't understand what he was saying

22:53

but i understood what i was

22:55

feeling like it was almost like it was bypassing

22:57

something in my brain in my brain

23:00

got it even if the really the rational

23:02

filters couldn't quite catch up with it yeah

23:04

well this is the great magic of human brain sue and

23:06

embarrassing by sisters completely correct and and

23:08

pseudoscientific answer to this is it really

23:11

only about five percent of our brain is conscious

23:14

and you know most of it is now unconscious and

23:16

and those non conscious regions are mostly

23:18

motor regions they evolve to kind

23:20

of hope our brain or body do things and

23:23

that's why you can kind of drive a car without thinking about

23:25

it as white and kind of react spontaneously

23:27

say things on his we are thinking about it because they're these

23:29

motor regions moto

23:31

regions work in action

23:34

that's a motor dies it acts and another

23:36

name for an action the air the

23:39

story suitors are the stories

23:41

have this deep deep impact because

23:43

essentially what our brain is doing is not how to spot

23:46

of a brain is just killing thousands and thousands of

23:48

stories were arms or legs and sorts of this is what

23:50

to do this is what part to place and that's why stories

23:52

of this enormous primordial effect on us is because

23:54

they plug right into those non conscious parts of

23:56

the brain and they shift our performance

23:58

and an akita shakespeare the reason that he so

24:00

extraordinarily powerful is

24:03

unlike most the writers that came before him and like

24:05

many the writers the came for century so after him

24:07

he wasn't trying to produce propaganda though

24:10

you know writers have basically been trying to

24:12

moralize m provide morals

24:14

and dogma and doctrine and just basically

24:17

asked rubbish bins a

24:19

you know this is the right answer or

24:21

the courage to go into the questions

24:23

and the conflicts that's why

24:25

when people read hamlet it's so earth shattering

24:27

because you have someone who is struggling

24:29

with does what does it mean to

24:31

die what is it may be mortal and the church says oh no don't

24:33

worry about that because as the heaven and if you follow these rules

24:36

is what happened and ammo to say why mean how

24:38

do you know that i mean that is where's that coming

24:40

from and and and who can see that how do i know don't

24:42

find the right moves there's different sources with different water

24:44

ski resorts ask these questions these starts to pull things

24:46

apart and it beyond helmets questions

24:49

are so many other questions i mean what am i see replaces

24:51

make bath and will reasons as one of my favorite

24:53

places because there's is moment in the middle of

24:55

it were a man loses his children the

24:58

he says what do i do now what do i

25:00

do now that i've lost my children and this is

25:02

a a feeling we know she's for had himself he lost

25:04

his son around this time what do i do know

25:06

what do i do now owning intense greece what

25:09

does it matter and and so

25:11

is the willingness to engage those deep conflicts

25:14

the process them through story as

25:16

opposed to logic and reason

25:19

you know into morality that allows

25:21

those plays post the kind of plugin

25:23

but also just to help

25:26

us and make us feel so cathartic because

25:28

we're not in a space we have to understand or

25:30

or have answers but we can just move that

25:33

me so much as man i love the notion them of

25:35

basically are or were just running

25:38

story scripts on the micro or macro level all

25:40

day everyday and nests fundamentally

25:42

what what is underneath everything i've

25:45

heard you describe party experiences are like

25:47

your transition into this world was also being brought

25:49

into a some the study that has been

25:51

done with that's and greek tragedies to was

25:53

really fascinating as at share bit more

25:55

about without experience and well so

25:58

i was invited to you know i'm consider to be

26:01

the world's leading expert on

26:03

the psychological effects of of narrative

26:05

and of literature and i received this phone

26:08

calls every years ago los angeles and i

26:10

was told about this our side

26:12

is new ah worth

26:14

done by peter my nexus professor at n

26:16

y u and he's a veteran

26:18

himself he we're introducing greek tragedies

26:21

thirty military veterans the

26:23

idea was that they can produce catharsis

26:25

and they could help with post traumatic stress disorder

26:28

and i was asked by could come along a witness they

26:30

began to read that against this is as extremely skeptical

26:33

about i mean i'm a d believer

26:35

in the power of literature to do a lot of things

26:37

and a d believer in the power of literature to spark

26:39

creativity and create joy in whole bunnies

26:41

are all things all the sisters and it is level with

26:44

literature the trauma if you've

26:46

ever worked closely with veterans as i had the

26:48

honor of doing you know just how deep from is that

26:50

you worked survivors of domestic abuse you know

26:52

how deep it is the idea that who go

26:54

wash a greek tragedy and

26:56

somehow this would help you a trauma i just

26:59

seems unrealistic to me i just i couldn't

27:01

believe that it was gonna happen and

27:03

now my my was changed because i went to this performance

27:06

i saw the the tragedy

27:08

performed and then i saw the response from the veterans

27:10

and i saw our men and women unlocked

27:13

and start to grieve and away they hadn't

27:16

grieve before as such a process those

27:18

difficult emotions and then also start to organize

27:20

them in their heads and starts it's

27:22

make that really important shift in the

27:24

brain restart to collect up all

27:27

these fragments of trauma is start

27:29

to put them into a kind of new life story

27:31

a new life narrative and i i saw

27:33

that healing happen that transforming

27:35

that made me realize look i mean greece as he

27:37

was created by veterans thousands

27:39

of years ago individual authors

27:42

were veterans were survivors who suffered

27:44

largely for veterans in it's

27:46

original greek form and litres really

27:48

does have this power and since then i've gone

27:50

on and in the last year so i've been

27:52

privileged non and i work a lot with the army

27:55

medical corps the army nursing core they

27:57

also want a lot with us special operations out

28:00

and i do different things there are any

28:02

similar stuff i do is actually using literature to increase

28:04

mental performance to kind of makes you more creative

28:06

more daft of under stress but i also

28:08

use a lot to process because

28:11

undies men and women have gone through experiences

28:13

like i can't even begin to articulate to then

28:15

you start to hear some things that have happened to them and some

28:18

of the moments where they've they've they've had

28:20

the friends i'm in a diner arms

28:23

are blaming themselves the kind of you know

28:25

the kind of shot and

28:28

helping them realize that that

28:30

stories and help them process that

28:33

and can help them get through that and can help them zealand

28:35

help them grow and actually and a lot of cases actually

28:37

make them stronger them before

28:39

so all of that transition was was a result

28:42

i'm very grateful to to peter and

28:44

yeah for for for shattering my skepticism

28:46

and for those veterans are back in los angeles

28:49

but it's something that you know if you if you talk to veterans

28:51

now i'm they'll be honest with you and they'll tell

28:53

you that the moment they have a feeling of the moment for sharing

28:55

stories and you

28:58

know that's just the essentially

29:01

and gives you a federally when and with one story

29:03

in your head about like what was going to have

29:05

and it's and the story change your

29:07

own story about the context there

29:10

yeah you're talking about people who have been through these

29:12

a deep and profound chalmers both losing the ones

29:14

out and if we like it let's

29:16

look at the world that we're living in right now the

29:19

every human being has literally been through

29:21

years now have some level of the

29:23

tier little t trauma i've

29:25

always been curious year and i know there's research

29:27

on this what it's what distinguishes between

29:29

somebody who experiences trauma

29:32

and then it becomes integrated as

29:34

posted radek growth vs post

29:37

traumatic stress disorder what

29:39

is a distinguishing factor they're like conversations

29:42

with vessel band or coconuts and he

29:44

has certain ideas by what it

29:46

sounds like is is part of this may

29:48

involve how you can integrate

29:50

is and to and story that allows

29:53

space for growth verse is

29:55

the arouses the first thing i think we

29:57

wanted to cigars after of the top as it

29:59

very hard and individual respond differently to trauma

30:02

different kinds of summer different we don't want to make universal

30:04

same it's about these kinds of things but

30:05

the first thing i will always say to people is it

30:07

if you don't believe you can heal from trauma

30:10

it's extremely unlikely that you will answer

30:12

the first thing that that that that that

30:14

if you if you aspire to

30:16

to change and grow from trauma is the

30:19

is to start to save yourself is something that i can

30:21

get that shifting yourself and usually the

30:24

way to get that shift is that not actually to look

30:26

to other people and a lot of times

30:28

what what happens is we look to other people

30:30

who have gone to trauma we find the by examples

30:32

of other people gone should probably try and provide support

30:35

groups and so on and so forth but typically when

30:37

typically do with veterans when i find the most effective

30:39

thing to do is go back into their own life look

30:42

at moments where they have overcome things start

30:44

to develop a psychology of what we call and he

30:46

fragility and because

30:48

you made for jody is just basically going through

30:50

and realizing that there are moments to break you

30:52

that make you strong starting back

30:54

i'm going to your childhood and signed to identify moments

30:57

because children are incredibly resilient i

30:59

notice is my will could parents they have a seat anxiety

31:01

about their kids did like you know terrible

31:03

you know harm is going to have their kids of course harm

31:06

can happen to kids but for the most part

31:08

sooner much much stronger psychologically

31:10

than a lot of us realize and

31:12

you and your saw that are stronger than you realize

31:14

and he started go back and think about all the things that happened

31:17

in your childhood and how you came back from how

31:20

you grew from there did you start

31:22

to go back with those positive most rather starting

31:24

with the trial of those positive moments of growth

31:26

and develop and been an anti fragility he

31:28

said was okay i have this in mean you started

31:30

create a narrative in your head if

31:33

you own ability to process really

31:35

really hard things and find meaning and

31:37

purpose and direction and growth in them

31:40

and then was we go from there we start to start to

31:42

tackle progress with harder things maybe we don't go

31:44

immediately sue the most terrible

31:46

to put things put things we started to tend to focus

31:48

on other things if you haven't resolved yet

31:50

that were hard it was difficult nikita veterans

31:52

mean i find beyond their battles that experiences

31:55

the number one things they carry with them as relationships

31:57

daily many of them are and failed marriages

32:00

the difficult relationships with around kids

32:02

and so we actually start there and we start say

32:04

look you know you can't bring back your body's

32:06

you can't go back in history in chains that moment on the

32:08

bow so do you did is needed that you can

32:10

talk to your kids right now then you can

32:12

start to identify the start of fix that relationship

32:15

shield that relationship gets frozen that relationship

32:17

and you can call up your acts you can talk

32:19

to her any restarted it fixed that

32:21

relationship you know and then and then that

32:23

they start to take these steps rose

32:27

a movie star to put themselves in a position where they

32:29

can start to process that from

32:32

the final set that i always say to them before

32:34

they even go back to their own france is helping

32:36

them help other vets mean she's a

32:38

real gift is helping other people isn't actually helping them

32:40

as helping yourself this is the dirty secret for any

32:42

one season altruism is really doing

32:44

it for yourself and that's where the brain

32:46

develops the most growth is

32:49

from assisting other people and so making

32:51

a conscious decision in your allies to

32:53

reach out to the people around you are having a hard time

32:55

word of were having difficulty and in helping

32:57

them and a sustainable way not giving them a few dollars

33:00

or some advice or something like that but

33:02

saying you know what can i give them that's going to

33:04

change the course of their life how can i empower

33:07

them how can i help them with their story how can i

33:09

sit and listen to them as they tell me hard things

33:11

i may have the patience of can i give the

33:13

maybe one or two pieces of wisdom the more

33:15

you do that the more you said realize

33:18

your own problems or no and

33:21

you can grow if someone

33:23

to say as a good issue go

33:26

back and look for the stories of resilience

33:28

like it in in your early life and

33:30

then you had on this other part of being of

33:32

service other people as a going through on

33:35

their own challenges security curse

33:37

me they we've been talking about this in the context

33:39

of helping you process the trauma

33:41

that you feel you've already been through but this is also

33:43

i would imagine a powerful no

33:46

dalla the if you are

33:48

i mean ozzy world and to experience some level

33:50

of trauma in britain all of it's it's just it's part

33:53

of living right the what have we actually

33:55

look at this as something

33:57

that we train and before we need it he though

34:00

how could we say kids if we start

34:02

to introduce these as serve like a general part of the

34:04

skill set up as you move into adults are you

34:06

going to get knocked around you know that may

34:08

be new job that may be in the world circumstances

34:11

maybe whatever it is the less

34:13

actually start to help

34:15

you develop the skills and the practices now

34:18

do that and yet even when it happens

34:20

you're not starting from zero then i'm

34:22

wondering at do see that we're going on

34:24

anywhere more like equipped presented as

34:26

level the that as you what we're trying to

34:28

do are in school and school system around

34:30

here are in partnership with our school system

34:32

and you know where the positive ways we we

34:34

do that is that the number one

34:37

armed sort of psychological driver of resilience

34:39

released creativity the more you nurture

34:42

summers creativity the more you develop

34:44

their belief that when something happens

34:46

it's unexpected they can

34:49

adapt to it they can be flesh and

34:51

you know our sources are now is eroding we know

34:54

that kids levels of creativity started

34:56

drop pretty aggressively from at the age of eight or nine

34:58

on and more school they have the more

35:00

draw said you have a graduate degree in engineering

35:03

psych last be you one of the least creative people on

35:05

the plus wow what's really driving all

35:08

that is kids get into the system

35:10

where it's partly standardized tests

35:12

but it's also this kind of logic based system

35:14

where there are right and wrong answers and

35:17

you know if you doing the math equation there's a right answer those are wrong

35:19

answers what that means

35:21

is that when the situation

35:23

changes and they can't find an answer

35:26

they feel lost and they feel breast

35:28

and creativity is the ability to come up with

35:30

something weather isn't right or wrong answer and

35:32

creativity is the ability to adapt

35:34

in these kind of fast changing follow

35:37

those situations and being able

35:39

to make something good out of a plan is broken

35:41

or something good out of chaos and

35:44

kids are naturally creative which is why the reasons that

35:46

are so naturally psychologically resilient and

35:48

people are interested we publish this recently new

35:50

york academy of sciences what

35:52

we're doing is a is a kind of new training methods the

35:54

health nurse or kids creativity

35:56

and that's this way of just kind of preparing

35:59

them for impact grain of are impacting

36:01

excited for impact any i think lorna

36:03

problems that we suffer from today's society's

36:05

because we're so used to everything being sanitize

36:08

is we make these long term plans nor have

36:10

i i've gotta have this happened i got a bad habit is holding

36:13

out and everything started bolster the rails was such

36:15

a panic we started it you know as opposed

36:17

to embracing volatility embracing

36:19

change because vol two in chains are

36:21

the key drivers of growth i mean

36:24

if your life happens just as you bought it

36:26

it it would be very boring you never have a chance

36:28

to fall in love with someone who you didn't know you

36:30

couldn't imagine you know you never have a chance to

36:32

have children who surprised you never have a chance to

36:34

have friends and projects that just

36:36

totally reinvented your psychology and so learning

36:39

to see the positive side and embrace

36:41

the chaos and so all again all

36:43

that comes from creativity because creativity boosts

36:45

what we call self advocacy and self advocacy

36:47

is really the driver really of resilience

36:50

yeah and at the same time to for somebody

36:52

to step into that space of is actually

36:54

uncertainty the unknown which is where

36:56

like the seats a possibility really really are born

36:58

right because if you know everything that can be known there's

37:01

nothing to create kinda like all

37:03

you're you're left with may be replicating are slated

37:06

are aiding and that's gets old fast and the contact

37:08

with an interesting life and

37:10

yet at the same time you know

37:13

we are notoriously awful

37:15

existing in a humane state when

37:17

we actually go into that space of uncertainty

37:20

you know we step into it and remember

37:22

seeing some research that says a the rashid

37:25

looking at people sort of like exploring very

37:27

since at the classic ellsberg paradise you know like

37:29

you have to make the uncertain

37:31

choice or make the certain choice i'm knowing

37:33

that the uncertain choice could be better it could be worse

37:35

but like n f m r

37:38

i studies were showing that jozy a made the well

37:40

as lighting up and people like there was a real c or

37:42

response to having to make a decision or taken

37:44

action in the sake of imperfect

37:47

information it feels like we're

37:49

kind of wire do not want

37:51

to do that and it sounds like what

37:53

you're describing the education system

37:55

which says here like let's create a container

37:57

everything is known in there was a right or wrong answer the

38:00

just reinforces that wiring rather

38:02

than trains people to save real life actually

38:04

isn't that way keep introducing

38:07

scenarios and stories where you gonna have to be

38:09

there and breathe into it and make decisions and a

38:11

certain and realize you'll actually not

38:13

only be okay there's an awesome stuff

38:15

in the other side of it that were training

38:17

that out of kids and adults

38:20

to a certain extent we defend i

38:22

think is completely bright and is really

38:24

true the yes our education system sasha

38:26

reinforcing our own worst instincts and

38:28

that the opposite of what we all know education should be doing

38:31

says spits i think we don't need

38:33

education reinforce our own worst instincts you

38:35

know we need it's a stretch our sense we

38:37

have to keep in mind the way that the

38:39

human brain evolve mean human brain involved

38:41

in situations where it was biased

38:43

towards short term success because

38:46

it didn't have this option of sustainability

38:48

and kind of long term growth life

38:50

was much more fragile and so it constantly

38:53

defaulted to taking a kind of you know

38:55

small immediate reward over a

38:57

massive long term the

38:59

whole purpose of building society

39:01

such as we have bought today is to stress

39:04

that horizon of course the most

39:06

obvious example this we see the people's dietary choices

39:08

you know i nice enough we don't just need

39:10

to eat chocolate i mean our brains and each onto the topic

39:12

and lusaka is great you know but we've learned

39:15

our society know you got excited stress that are you

39:17

if you want to have health and it's the same thing in terms of our fear

39:19

response i mean so i mean

39:21

i work all the time with are kind

39:23

of miss assessment of risk risk

39:26

is actually one of the most important things we can take

39:28

as as individuals and society says it's

39:30

important to take risks

39:32

for all sorts of reasons it produces growth

39:34

of design what you your point

39:37

whenever we take a risk wherever we walk and one certainly

39:39

our brain starts to freak out because

39:42

it's think it was of i'm gonna die i'm

39:44

going to die because that's where the middle of all

39:46

in that kind of environment and so what we have to do

39:48

so we have to learn the take

39:51

risks to take chances and see that

39:53

we don't die and that's when the reasons why personally

39:55

i have had many my happiest moments of

39:57

my working with actors working

39:59

with the professionals because there's

40:02

nothing really more terrified of the human brain and getting up in public

40:05

you know and a doing something him public any we just

40:07

have still like the biggest fear response and

40:10

what actors have learn to do is sale

40:12

in public the have this kind of rehearsal

40:15

psychology in public the to be

40:17

willing to make themselves look bad

40:19

in public any i have a lot of friends in hollywood night

40:21

and the most people your movie will get released people

40:23

say oh my goodness hazardous actor have done this

40:25

movie how could they not have known as be terrible were really

40:27

doing this as me that's what i love about actors

40:29

i love that there's so much trust and willingness

40:31

to leave you see the soundstage

40:34

every night the willing to take a chance of

40:36

willing to proceed with even though they're really

40:38

incredibly scared you

40:40

look at it as you think they're so confident stage

40:42

they're terrified and so stat

40:44

to me as again some of the i one encouraging kids

40:47

is a reversal psychology a rehearsal mentality

40:50

a sense that you know particularly of our

40:52

times in school that's a stage it's

40:54

a staging area it's a practice space we

40:56

shouldn't be scared of his intestines schools be

40:59

scared about teachers we shouldn't be scared of messing

41:01

up and and and movie mistakes

41:03

the opposite we should embrace was phones

41:06

and these are always i think which are really help him really

41:08

productive that we could do to kind of change

41:10

the psychology of haskell once now yeah

41:12

i mean i'm a lot of sense either and and as you're

41:14

saying that what what occurs to me what assad about

41:16

over the years as the one here

41:18

we're talking about actions he does is make it in

41:21

the context of uncertainty of imperfect

41:23

information seeking the quote rest the

41:25

risk of near the nicholas as risk of what

41:27

you know in for their to be risk the had

41:29

to be states right and then

41:31

okay so where did the steaks and i think one

41:34

of biggest things as in class and we miss

41:36

is that maybe the most dominant

41:38

states that were so fearful of

41:41

you know that we have we made a decision we

41:43

took an action we didn't have all the information

41:45

and it didn't turn out the way we wanted it's

41:48

not so much the notion of like i sailed

41:50

the dad but it's the notion of other people are going

41:52

to observe me selling at that and

41:54

then i would become the social pariah i would be some

41:56

outcast my sense of belonging is dawn

41:59

the really we often discount the

42:02

effect of social steaks in

42:05

decision making where we don't have all the information

42:07

because i think the brain can send a wrap his head rally

42:10

that i nasa it like this you can

42:12

be the fall out i consider how to make more money or reclaim

42:14

this it is the social steaks

42:16

that i sealing off in his the unspoken

42:19

part of equation but potentially the most devastating

42:21

thing that was a brilliant is

42:23

completely correct and course the human brain evolve

42:25

to be kind of social organism that's why we're

42:27

always answer from icing anthropomorphizes

42:29

everything you know i mean that's why we think you

42:31

know our cars is alive and technologies live

42:34

that was lines guys on it's three imagine

42:36

cause this guy noise kinds of things is because we

42:38

have that social psychology and nothing

42:40

is more sort of shameful to aspen

42:42

thinking that other people think negatively of ourselves the

42:45

couple things i want to say to kind of shift that culture

42:48

first of all it's always been my experience

42:50

people actually admire you the most you take risks

42:52

in public and acknowledged mistakes and so

42:54

this is another would area much our brain is actually incorrect

42:57

twenty things by screwing up in public it's

42:59

it's diminishing it's social status in fact

43:02

all of us assume someone make mistaken public and respond

43:04

graciously oh are you know was a sense

43:07

of dignity and we love that for since

43:09

we admire that person and that's important

43:11

to remember is not how you know what you screw up it's how

43:13

you respond to that mistake is how you react

43:15

to that mistake is that rebounded set resiliency

43:18

if you keep yourself in a position where you're never making

43:21

a mistake that what actually happens is

43:23

when you ask when you do make a mistake you don't know how

43:25

to compensate and is much much better

43:27

to just keep pushing yourself into this mistake area

43:29

i mean this is what a lot of the work i do with us special

43:31

operations i mean they were having this problem

43:34

in in training exercises where they were getting better

43:36

and better and better and better a train and

43:39

because we're getting better better better training they felt

43:41

one actually this is gonna translates was being more more

43:43

successful missions than this new

43:45

have a catastrophic failure why is

43:47

it will because they created a culture where actually

43:50

it's none of them wanted to look bad

43:52

in front of their friends in training and he wanted

43:54

to be perfect in framing and so

43:56

basically they just kind of focus instead of taking

43:58

risks and training said the daring in training

44:01

you know they just kept doing other stuff as a new would work

44:03

in training any and they didn't have to take that extra seventy

44:06

didn't make that philosophy to jump it's will be part

44:08

of actually what we want to do you want to build cultures

44:10

and societies because the human brain is so socially

44:13

a wired worse a society where to

44:15

the culture words the group words the team that encourages

44:18

mistakes and public we work

44:20

with a brain stealth alleviated social

44:22

anxiety it will be real quick i'll just

44:24

say is you're talking about decision

44:27

making so this is another thing which is both

44:29

true and not sure about the human brain were also

44:31

think that basically the human brain is a decision

44:33

maker and that life is about the decisions

44:35

that we make and this is because we misunderstand

44:37

the brain as a computer the computer

44:40

use computers have a bunch of options they make a choice

44:42

as to what is the best one generally

44:44

humans do not work like that generally as a human

44:46

we do not have a bunch of choices in front of us think about

44:49

the way the data and then picked the best one actually what we

44:51

do is we just intuit and action

44:53

the left him from making a choice that's

44:55

just doing so that a lotta

44:58

times you'll notice when human brain

45:00

slows down and has to make a decision between

45:02

three things that's when they get anxious that's

45:04

may start to feel shame when a human being

45:06

just does something they don't feel anxiety they're

45:08

not concern about making a mistake and

45:10

so a big part again this is a rehearsal psychologies

45:13

to say to people this is not actually decision you

45:15

not weighing five options i know that that's

45:17

how businesses are trained to work now i

45:19

know that's how schools are trained to work out more which recess

45:22

which is the best answer i have to wait of but ashley

45:24

you're much more effective in your brain if you're not thinking

45:26

about the choices but you just thinking what could i do

45:29

instead of looking at the options in front of you you just

45:31

make up an option that doesn't exist then

45:34

when you do that you discover your fear disappears

45:36

and instead you have joy curiosity

45:39

open all these positive emotion so again there's a different

45:41

kind of psychology there's that i think we can leverage

45:43

now i love that i mean is it sounds like that touches

45:46

insert lancer like any kind of his vision

45:48

of new york he are two different things as

45:50

an assistant monitors and to was in one is the more

45:52

intuitive one research leading

45:54

with that you there is this or sense

45:57

of i need to get is rational about

45:59

the decision making the things that i'm doing mls his

46:01

muscles is that how demise has built rather than

46:03

just saying what you're saying is like a

46:05

knowledge that maybe not true but it also

46:07

is also probably not possible it's just not the

46:09

way that we are not the way that we live not the with

46:12

the with wire just like doesn't happen that

46:14

way and we don't move soured that

46:16

way no it's not the way to dot were

46:18

raised part is that the way to life worse any of this

46:20

is why i mean i'm now working with the defense

46:22

department on this other way

46:24

basically of training brains because

46:27

for you know there's been this mythology

46:29

that now exists in the modern world a business

46:31

that everything's about dating have to have the right data

46:33

to make the decisions and we're seeing that get annihilated

46:36

over the past year visitors as the data

46:38

is only a predictor of yesterday and

46:40

you know it only helps you make the decisions if the in the

46:43

world stays the same and so what was happened

46:45

is actually built these systems are more more try

46:47

to create artificial stability

46:49

in markets in economies noise kinds of things

46:51

in what they do is they create real fragility

46:53

business not the way the world works and

46:56

we been here before we were here

46:58

during the enlightenment and it was a guy

47:00

called napoleon ah and there's this whole

47:02

idea that somehow actually you could win battles

47:04

in advance mathematically and you and you could

47:06

yours kind of stuff and you know the outcome of

47:08

that mathematical approach to battle was it

47:11

was the us civil war how mathematical

47:13

was this is you know it was world war one

47:15

how mathematical was that and

47:17

you know with the military has been forced to realize overtime

47:20

at i think what all of us have been forced voice over time

47:22

is it actually the world where in is a contested

47:24

space there's there's a lot

47:26

of things struggling in it's and

47:28

any time you have a kind of struggle you have what's known as asymmetric

47:31

conflict which creates constant volatility

47:33

and uncertain and actually with a brain

47:36

needs in that situation is not

47:38

the ability to process more data better which is all

47:40

computers can do if the ability

47:42

to identify was called exceptional information

47:45

or the one piece of data that's really important in

47:47

counterfactual we leverage off

47:49

that to imagine options and possibilities

47:51

that we don't see and by training

47:54

those parts of the human brain we can train

47:56

the brains do things the computers can never and

47:59

what

47:59

the now is that computers you

48:02

see this and hedge funds you see this in special operations

48:04

there incredibly fragile ai breaks

48:06

all the time a i've never been to drive cars

48:09

never been as i've gotten never do any these things

48:11

because it cannot handle a whisper

48:14

of volatility the human can do that

48:16

all the time and so he'll be part of a training

48:18

and that i work on in a big part of what i think is going

48:20

we the training the future is the kind of put aside

48:22

all the state a decision making is going to be putting

48:24

aside also system on a system to to be frank

48:26

and to be short economists be put aside quantitative

48:29

economics all these things they just don't

48:31

work and it can be embracing the kind of creativity

48:34

be adaptability and rudy artists

48:37

in the human brain because the artist is the person

48:39

who doesn't to see the future but makes this huge the

48:41

created to to reinvent the future hardly do that

48:43

they see an opportunity because they see an exception

48:46

and in that exception they see a possibility

48:48

so those are the parts of the brain that that that that i

48:51

kind of focus on training and again that's why i

48:53

like to have the kids are like to look at entrepreneurs ice

48:55

will be special operations the really it's for it's for anyone

48:58

who who just wants to feel like they they

49:01

have more opportunity

49:03

and can sign of surf uncertainty

49:05

in chaos instead of being ah freaked out

49:07

by it i love they can set a ceiling

49:10

we have gotten into this right as the

49:12

systems and creativity systems that are

49:14

basically helping us read

49:17

the optimal expression or it a ration

49:19

of an idea that has existed for time immortal

49:21

right

49:22

rather than saying

49:24

what if we just had excite the truly had a blank

49:26

slate here you know like well if we forgot that

49:28

this thing even exists and we didn't try and make

49:30

it the best version of it we ever could but what

49:33

the universe was are possibility

49:35

in ah yes it's more terrifying because again

49:37

we don't know we're like thrust

49:39

into this place of being a massively wildly

49:41

exposed to our peers and our colleagues and those

49:43

around us and maybe we have resources

49:45

that we have to allocate i'm responsible

49:47

right we have to wait like worry

49:50

about like houses can affect me the

49:52

same time there is no progress

49:54

in the human condition the most people

49:56

are not only willing to go there well

49:59

equipped to there and imagine what did

50:01

not want not what the next best adoration

50:03

of today as blood what like an

50:05

entirely evolved future might be

50:08

yeah i mean one of the things and again i think

50:10

we're saying is is completely brilliant is

50:12

optimization is actually really dangerous because

50:15

what ends up happening is when you optimizers you get better

50:17

and better and better at a narrower and narrower and

50:19

narrower away and then suddenly situations shifts

50:22

and your destroy and you don't or

50:24

genetics i mean this is the old idea basically

50:26

of eugenics the all day idea

50:28

behind eugenics is that we could build a perfect human

50:30

with perfect dna you know and

50:32

then what happens all the sudden you know a new back to your

50:34

comes along and and everything's gone everything said

50:36

and actually we wanted you want to burst city you

50:38

want variety an interest

50:40

of what you're saying you also want to be able to

50:43

stop saying how do we keep making the i phone

50:45

better and better and better and better a better as sourcing

50:47

what's actually a completely new technology swimming

50:50

just completely different and you know

50:52

i work a lot in silicon valley and unfortunately

50:54

there's actually a huge lack of imagination and saw

50:56

him valid because people are really just obsessed with

50:59

these kinds of making improvements a software

51:01

and software has almost entirely exhausted

51:04

what it's going to do we actually need to build a new hardware

51:06

we need be realized the computer has

51:08

kind of reached almost the end of

51:10

it's ability to do what it's going to do and we

51:12

started thinking what is the next big piece of technology

51:14

beyond a computer you know what

51:17

is an intelligent thinking machine doesn't think

51:19

computationally but things and some of the other ways

51:21

of human brain scan think that's the kind of radical

51:23

thought that i think you're going to see power people

51:25

in one hundred two hundred years from now and

51:27

there's that same opportunity for innovation all over the place

51:30

if people are willing to do as you say and and

51:32

and focused less on optimizing and

51:34

kind of getting more more kind of minor incremental

51:36

improvements and said take the big job

51:38

take the big risk and say where's the big

51:40

opportunity for change which

51:42

gets to the research that you referenced earlier that

51:45

you introduced as really to so last

51:47

year about like how do we had we train creativity

51:49

differently and it brings us back to the early

51:51

part of a conversation around like those is a what if we split

51:53

if we center narrative the uri

51:55

and storytelling in as a rather than seeking

51:58

assistance and divergent and urgent

52:00

and silly be different phases that

52:02

we've seen like you introduce

52:04

idea of like what if we actually center

52:07

storytelling this in a way that

52:09

seems maybe not obvious from the outside

52:11

in that this is going to profoundly changed the way

52:13

that we come up with new ideas that we get creative and

52:15

innovative what you're seeing your

52:18

research is that inside he does just that

52:20

yes sir understand is i mean basically

52:22

our modern series of of creativity

52:24

are the jimmy noticed divers and thinking are brainstorming

52:27

and they have their origins of the end of world war two

52:30

where are an air force colonel

52:32

was actually tasks by the military

52:34

was a good as a sequel to creativity and

52:36

he came up with iverson thinking and and his id minded

52:38

person thinking as a creativity is kind of logical

52:40

system of randomly mix

52:42

and massing from sense and

52:45

it's a very kind of powerful idea it seems

52:47

to work quite well or did seem to work

52:49

quite well for a while and then something crazy

52:51

happened which is that we built computers

52:53

to to perform diversion thinking much much

52:56

much better than humans wave as we can ever

52:58

do it and it turns out they're not actually that created

53:01

they can create ninety nine point nine percent of

53:03

the human things that humans can do the concrete strategies

53:06

or plots do business plans or science or to or

53:08

a kinds of things and why

53:10

this is this problem was brought to my attention

53:12

when i was kind of brought into console for bunch of ai guys

53:15

and i started or less will obviously because the mechanism

53:17

of creativity in human brain is different and

53:20

really what's going on in the human brain is what we

53:22

would settle the call counterfactual thinking

53:24

or what if it was used

53:26

a mass and different alternatives and like all you know what

53:28

if i did this differently or what have we put this character

53:30

in this situation of what if we change this law of

53:32

the world are these kinds of things the negative

53:35

thinking is thinking that a computer can't do because it's not

53:37

lodge and so you

53:39

know basically i'm i was brought in by

53:41

the by by the us military and i wrote their new

53:43

field book on feet of thinking and that's gone

53:45

through special forces and were rashly on fast

53:47

break a brief seven a joint chiefs

53:50

a yielded a bunch of publications and hard this is

53:52

real vices like that and and what we see is

53:54

is you know i don't think my through creativity explains

53:57

everything you know i don't think that if

53:59

you look at my here he would he suddenly that can answer

54:01

all the questions ran creativity but i think the fact

54:03

that it's proof so effective in such an incredibly

54:05

short speed of time in doing so

54:07

much change shows just how much more work there

54:09

is to do in this area and

54:12

how much we the ashley shift away

54:14

from all these straightforward computational

54:17

answers to how the human brain works and

54:19

start to really embrace the complexity

54:22

and exciting thing that our brain is a

54:24

machine but it's him seen as far more

54:26

complicated than laptops

54:28

or satellites for cellphones and

54:30

if we want to kind of the increased

54:32

the performance of what we can do we had to ourselves

54:35

start thinking a lot more creatively yeah

54:37

and creatively definitely

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55:13

there's a i remember is is pulling on and ten

55:15

years ago reading it may have been in hbr

55:18

survey actually see as i said late late

55:20

list out the most important qualities and the

55:22

people that you want to bring into your organization the

55:24

creativity topless i think it's dot the list for a couple

55:27

years running then if you as well

55:29

well as how do you determine whether somebody is creative

55:31

or how do you help them it was just sir like

55:33

an assumption that you either are or you aren't as

55:35

noticing this title anything

55:37

part of this really deep did diversion approach and

55:39

then all the thinking systems in the design systems i

55:41

came around to or to try not to say how

55:44

do we train it what you're doing

55:46

it as soon so the assumption started

55:48

to become well it's maybe it's actually not

55:50

like you know either in your genes or not

55:52

but maybe this is attainable thing

55:55

do you find that

55:57

that there are certain people who

56:00

are simply because this

56:02

is getting to the nurture nature side of things like a certain

56:04

amount of trainable trust everybody but

56:06

are there people whose brains are simply wired

56:09

by the time they reach a certain point in life the

56:11

nature side a bit who are either more

56:13

susceptible to that the said palms are processes

56:16

that would allow me to be more creative the

56:18

word just seem

56:20

to be able to generate truly

56:22

novel ideas and solutions and strategies

56:25

they have for their entire life regardless

56:28

of anything there ever exposed to

56:30

like do those outliers exist or

56:32

is it really all that just being trained oh

56:35

no is simply not just all are being trained i

56:37

mean i think there's real neural divergence

56:39

were our brains role different so the extraordinary

56:41

if we off with different always other ways we all

56:43

of a sudden had exactly the same you know creativity

56:46

before i get into how there are certain people for

56:48

a typical creativity interest of their creativity

56:51

kind of how their brains work you

56:53

want to say though that that almost all

56:55

of us are extraordinarily creative

56:58

and you're the reason for that is just humans

57:00

evolved to be able to deal

57:02

with these incredibly fast changing situations

57:05

i mean when we when you go back

57:07

and hundred thousand years ago we were in the small

57:10

groups in a we are relatively compared

57:12

to many the species arrested a defenseless

57:14

ah we had to figure out how to adapt

57:17

and you see how quickly or species has and

57:19

and and all the ingenuity you think that all the problems

57:22

that everyone salzman a daily basis in their own lives

57:24

oh agree to to the people displaying and small

57:26

projects in terms of on personalized use

57:28

it every one is usually create me

57:31

too that yes of course there are people who

57:33

who end up kind of changing the world more than

57:35

others and you know this is one

57:37

of it's fascinating years my reasons i get the hang

57:39

out with a lot of his people talk with them and study them

57:42

and the one thing you find going bass was

57:44

saying about creativity been largely narrative there

57:47

are really story thinkers a really

57:49

good a counterfactual thinking what if i mean the kind

57:51

of famous example here it's in science

57:53

is einstein einstein was not a great

57:55

mathematician but he was great it running these weird thought

57:57

experiments when she was like well you know

57:59

what why was you know riding my bicycle and then

58:01

the headlight was shining in this direction or what if i was

58:03

in the elevator and it was falling into speed these kinds

58:05

of things i'm same thing with darwin

58:08

mean durham is running all these kinds of you know what

58:10

is stories and basically what if

58:12

you know are apparent had all these

58:14

children you know what would happen if the children were different

58:17

from each other what happens to the was just kind of process

58:19

of story thinking in terms of all that scientific

58:21

creativity and then of course you know van gogh

58:23

and shakespeare and all the artists it's obvious that they're story

58:26

thinkers to so yes there

58:28

are people that display

58:30

more creativity than others and at generally

58:33

seems to be this ability to story

58:35

thing to be counterfactual and

58:38

largely the drivers of

58:40

that the two main drivers of that that we find

58:42

our the ability to notice anomalies

58:44

and wait them so what computers

58:47

do is when they see something that's an outlier

58:49

he regretted to me they

58:51

are you know that's mistake this fits the you know

58:53

didn't fit the formula was basically dismiss

58:55

it what a creative does they

58:57

seen exception to say this is an opportunity

59:00

this is something that could be how do

59:02

i get more of that and so what we see as

59:05

a creative people tend to be fascinated by stuff that's

59:07

weird anomalous you go to their house

59:09

is just an explosives like bizarre things

59:11

don't seem like they belong together enough elements

59:13

have a to a little to be the creative people even more so

59:16

the the other course go that they often have is what we call

59:18

perspective shift the ability

59:20

to kind of enter into other people's perspectives and say

59:22

what what i do without this person and

59:24

that again is a is a story skill civility

59:27

to enter into another characters perspective and so people

59:29

who are good storytellers are often able to create dynamics

59:31

toys because all the characters in them operate differently

59:34

one the great things about shakespeare more than his ability

59:36

to write language is his ability to identify different

59:38

psychologists have people behave differently different

59:40

situations and if you know a friend

59:43

who's very empathetic a very curious but other people

59:45

is able to tell these stories you know that

59:47

have a large cast of characters and and that

59:49

as a huge deal signed creativity

59:52

the united and i like that yeah you acknowledge

59:55

know diversity as the same time like there

59:57

is process at anybody can step into

59:59

on sale what have i literally it

1:00:01

i mean simply that question that deposited

1:00:03

so many times out of sensation what s they

1:00:05

can what's the story that emerges from the question was

1:00:08

s and get his while others out

1:00:10

there get is just as different as you can

1:00:12

i want to zoom lens out here in this really focusing

1:00:14

on creativity but lot of the what the you do touches

1:00:17

on really the broader human condition

1:00:19

beyond like how can i get more creative had gonna

1:00:21

be a best register problem solver assumption

1:00:23

i stay cyrus situations and

1:00:26

school had will have will have life reconnect

1:00:28

more closely with other people who i loved more

1:00:30

openly and fully had was he the humanity

1:00:33

in people who are not like me then

1:00:35

i feel like in both a direct and indirect way this

1:00:37

is also part of what you're getting at and

1:00:40

the reason book wonder where us we literally take

1:00:43

you know this world of literature then

1:00:45

you kind of deconstructed into inventions

1:00:48

in no small part because i feel like what

1:00:50

you're doing is your okay so

1:00:52

people for thousands of years have done stuff

1:00:54

and stories that income we do things

1:00:57

to us we don't understand

1:00:59

it bypasses our defenses bypass irrational

1:01:01

brain and yet in some way it opens

1:01:03

our hearts the somebody who we never

1:01:05

would have been in djelic in connection with maybe

1:01:08

it allows us to process grief for

1:01:10

trauma and a way that allows us to bizarre

1:01:12

with our lives and and user say and

1:01:14

underneath avoidable these different things are set

1:01:16

of the you call them inventions

1:01:19

the you that we can see like how

1:01:21

these things get put to use in different

1:01:24

stories and maybe we understand what these

1:01:26

inventions are we can help them bring

1:01:28

them into our own experience in a way that we we

1:01:31

tell our own story i'm so

1:01:33

curious what led you to say okay so

1:01:36

i wanna actually this project

1:01:38

hundred he like on that does he sounds

1:01:40

like you've got a lot of different things going on then

1:01:43

sitting down or reading a book is a really really

1:01:46

major devotion of energy and effort what

1:01:48

brought you to wanting to say let me actually

1:01:50

go into this and deconstructed and keys out

1:01:52

these twenty five different invention say can turn around

1:01:55

said them with the world yeah you totally

1:01:57

bizarre and bonkers book to right i saw as

1:01:59

a me i'm as it was so feeble you know

1:02:01

get the end of a book you came believe you wrote a casino

1:02:04

that part of it's and out of body experience but i

1:02:06

mean the first thing is you know i just realized

1:02:08

it was his credit crisis and

1:02:10

in our schools where the waited box are being

1:02:12

taught and i just wanted to

1:02:14

kind of give people an alternative i want to say what there's

1:02:16

a different way to talk about the south

1:02:19

and i went around and can explain this lot of situations

1:02:21

and people were sort of like both can can we have like

1:02:23

more details and so you're that's part of the reason

1:02:25

that i wrote the book but any also i mean

1:02:27

i think literature we have this idea in the modern

1:02:29

world that literature is about sort of

1:02:31

changing other people's minds are the stories about cheating

1:02:34

other people's minds me i think you know when i work with

1:02:36

the military stories are always put under like psi ops

1:02:38

like psychological operations are brainwashing

1:02:40

you know when i work in businesses it's always marketing

1:02:42

but i go angus you're going to street she talked to the marketing

1:02:44

people you know and i have this totally different

1:02:46

view of story which is story isn't about changing other people's

1:02:49

minds it's a tool for changing our own the

1:02:51

what do you want more out of your own head

1:02:54

meet you want to be a kind of person you want to be a more joyful

1:02:56

person's you wanna be i'm almost sure

1:02:58

is person's want to think more scientifically want

1:03:00

to heal faster from grief you what

1:03:02

do you want from your own head there

1:03:05

is a story that can do that because that story

1:03:08

can plug into your story and

1:03:10

change the way the last behave because

1:03:12

so much of the human brain is about actions and processes

1:03:15

if you can find the right story and live

1:03:17

best rates that would change the absence of

1:03:19

processes and there's very bases hamilton's in

1:03:21

psychology you know stories you tell yourself

1:03:23

you know i eat paleo spend our

1:03:26

as opposed to obtain breaks me you know

1:03:28

mean that just completely changes that the way

1:03:30

but she responses to to events and so when

1:03:32

you started to superstores make them more complicated

1:03:34

and subtle and sophisticated as authors

1:03:37

and writers in adventures across the world

1:03:39

arm for centuries have done is

1:03:41

such a realized there's this huge resource

1:03:44

on ourselves for

1:03:46

changing our brains empowering our brains

1:03:48

allowing a race do almost anything we want

1:03:51

them to be and we have all

1:03:53

this time in school when we're reading all

1:03:55

this literature in ways are not very

1:03:57

helpful and are actually lot of times instantiating

1:04:00

variety and disenchantment in alienation all

1:04:02

things you talked about and what have we just took

1:04:04

all that time which is already in school when we took the

1:04:06

one or two hours a week that all these kids in school

1:04:08

crosses country are already reading

1:04:10

stories and used it to

1:04:12

make them more creative more brave

1:04:15

more hopeful all these kinds of things

1:04:17

because it's as simple as just giving them

1:04:19

the books and encouraging

1:04:21

them to read in a different way so

1:04:24

what i do the books they basically go through and i say

1:04:26

look we all know this intuitively we

1:04:28

all know that when we read a certain book in our life he gave

1:04:30

us courage or gave us hope i'm going to

1:04:32

actually point out you to your right to let me to point

1:04:34

out your you're right by showing you the science

1:04:36

and then also identified a very specific

1:04:39

unique thing that's different about that story

1:04:41

they're getting away from the joseph campbell model getting

1:04:44

away from lot of these ideas to the disease universal

1:04:46

stories the do everything all at once as

1:04:48

said into the idea that stories are like medicine

1:04:51

you wouldn't go to a pharmacy and just ask

1:04:53

for a universal till i mean that

1:04:55

is kind of mythologies for that from the middle ages

1:04:57

as they are there is a philosophers stone right

1:05:00

on the he went to a pharmacy just started randomly

1:05:02

eating habits off the shelf you'd make yourself sick

1:05:04

it's not a different really was literature when

1:05:07

you're reading a bunch of books that are designed to help your brain

1:05:09

to the opposite of what you want your brain to do that moment are going

1:05:11

to be boring the can be irritating are going to be confusing

1:05:14

the why not in a moment of grief

1:05:16

read a book that is going to help you with great

1:05:18

it when you seeking to become your more serious

1:05:21

read a book this can help you be more curious why would you have

1:05:23

more energy we the books can energize you

1:05:25

know into that's the whole purpose of the book is

1:05:27

basically to be kind of an operating manual

1:05:30

for this thing that for the most part would have

1:05:32

thrown into the deep end we're

1:05:34

taught to read unhealthily by kind of

1:05:36

interpreting it for symbols and themes

1:05:38

and arguments and other stuff which is really

1:05:40

the kind of thing this computer would do and

1:05:43

other way to the human brain nationally operates

1:05:45

yeah i mean it's really s l

1:05:47

of the notion of almost like yelling

1:05:49

, yourself with potatoes had the story

1:05:52

is so it's like this which like this it's yet

1:05:54

years ago i was given above this really are defined

1:05:57

now from on a understand by funny david

1:05:59

gordon therapeutic metaphor he

1:06:02

was a guy was deep into the world of neurolinguistic

1:06:04

programming at a spend time like a lifetime

1:06:06

deconstructing the linguistic patterns and

1:06:08

milton erickson and and how this

1:06:10

year like one therapists a long time ago was

1:06:13

able to lay take these intractable chases

1:06:15

the them down and room the relate

1:06:17

just tell a story and all the sudden everything

1:06:20

change for a human being and

1:06:22

what was underneath and he would deconstruct

1:06:24

this what he called therapeutic metaphor how do

1:06:27

actually read a story that

1:06:29

has a specific intended therapeutic

1:06:31

effect and as i was reading through

1:06:33

wonder where as i got this is really interesting because

1:06:36

now this is a really giving mechanism

1:06:38

do a lot of what he was talking mass a

1:06:41

okay so nice things

1:06:43

when these things are present it opens

1:06:45

certain doorways within us to our own

1:06:47

understanding and our own emotions we see ourselves

1:06:49

and how we see the world around

1:06:51

us to the notion of literature

1:06:54

literally surly choosing for

1:06:57

and intended effect because of

1:06:59

a state that we're in our place when our allies

1:07:01

were a place where we yearn to go to

1:07:03

and

1:07:04

the fascinates me

1:07:06

this is neil we bet of literature a whole bunch

1:07:08

and we brought the idea of narrative theory which is really

1:07:11

good basis of the creativity was are doing but

1:07:13

we're talking about story and like asked so many different

1:07:15

font i mean look at podcasts okay

1:07:18

so let me ask you about this now one

1:07:20

of the most popular

1:07:23

genres with in podcasting if not

1:07:25

be most popular by a wild margin the

1:07:27

always been true crime

1:07:29

what's going on there

1:07:32

yeah well i mean people are fascinated

1:07:34

by what's going on in other people's heads

1:07:37

people are sadly what psychology could have created

1:07:40

this ass in a what could be the answer

1:07:42

or highness so there's this kind of innate

1:07:44

kind of i think problem solving scientific

1:07:46

drive i mean i talk a little bit in a book

1:07:48

about basically the invention of crime fiction

1:07:51

and how that's actually really beginning a modern science

1:07:53

modern science really took off with the invention

1:07:55

of sherlock holmes and previously edgar allan poe

1:07:57

you know because it became this way

1:07:59

for

1:07:59

this kind of puzzle things through

1:08:02

i think is also to a certain extent

1:08:04

part of our desire

1:08:07

to find a real mystery

1:08:09

again in the world so i mean you know

1:08:11

i mean historically the mystery play

1:08:13

these were supposed to be directed towards heaven and towards

1:08:15

god in the idea is the ultimate mystery was

1:08:18

happy life beyond nirvana it

1:08:21

really is you go back and look at paintings middle

1:08:23

ages or from the renaissance most

1:08:26

of the energy that was ours devoted was to painting

1:08:28

health sense i mean for having this is

1:08:30

kind of like fairly boring blue sky place

1:08:32

with some parts in it but like hell assisted

1:08:34

by serves like explosion of like

1:08:36

have like baroque invention and kind of weirdness

1:08:39

you know then i think that really

1:08:41

is the deep mystery because i'm and i think

1:08:43

as human beings we are born into a life

1:08:45

that is actually pretty darn if

1:08:47

you're modern scientists you believe that at the

1:08:49

core of life is no intention

1:08:52

then accidents and so there's this

1:08:54

kind of horror at the center

1:08:56

of it that our brains are fascinated by and

1:08:59

i think all of us need to actually go into that

1:09:01

hard to come out of it i mean i think you're one

1:09:03

of the weird things by the way the modern world worse is on

1:09:05

one hand works success of being happy

1:09:07

the non monsieur were anything negative and you know

1:09:09

it's and then this manifests itself in the

1:09:11

fact that all of us are like secretly kind of pollen

1:09:13

the internet for dark banks and

1:09:16

would be great would be to integrate those crime podcasts

1:09:18

with positive psychology movie great

1:09:20

would be to say yes you know the faster you

1:09:22

feel this sense of or in darkness

1:09:24

in the world and the sense of mystery

1:09:27

just in the same way that the dia the response

1:09:29

or painters did in terms of house that's

1:09:31

very organics your experience but

1:09:34

less not just leave it there less leveraged

1:09:36

that and less sort of say you know

1:09:38

what can you use from that to kind of device

1:09:41

yourself and and the world's of that's kind of

1:09:43

how i would think about it but

1:09:45

i agree with you that i don't think

1:09:47

true crime podcasts are are going away any time

1:09:49

they've always been they've most popular sort of genre

1:09:52

really odd way back to penny periodicals

1:09:54

that and then i was also the as you're describing

1:09:57

that lead the different types of of zone as

1:09:59

you with the advent of the bus particularly

1:10:01

devices were no a can actually see the bullshit you reading

1:10:03

when you're out in public romance they

1:10:06

didn't massive massive explosion

1:10:08

a and romance and like there

1:10:10

are like twenty or thirty or forty different sub

1:10:13

genres of romance was i've learned over time so

1:10:16

it's it's fascinating to see like what

1:10:18

we gravitate towards in terms

1:10:20

of like when we're willing to invest ourselves

1:10:22

and se consuming other stories

1:10:24

and why that happens

1:10:26

yeah anything i want to say is to meet you

1:10:28

know romance i i read romance to i mean

1:10:30

and of course i read har but but i do want to emphasize

1:10:33

going back to you're saying about the medulla earlier

1:10:36

that is very much like chocolate for our brains

1:10:38

i mean those are things that make our brain so good in the short

1:10:40

term but i'm not really sustainable and rounds are

1:10:43

i mean this is why jane austen is one of the base romance

1:10:45

winners of all time is because she gives you romance was just

1:10:47

existing beyond the romance i

1:10:49

think it is important to realize that the same

1:10:51

time that you're eating chocolate any doing fun stuff

1:10:53

and and you want to do a lease so that kind of indulgence

1:10:56

every day all your life you also

1:10:58

want the more sustainable reading you want the more sustainable

1:11:00

stories you wanna find that balance because

1:11:03

we find that when people only read

1:11:06

romance novels actually the get pretty

1:11:08

disenchanted sort of gone on the record

1:11:10

and said that one of the problems i think with disney if

1:11:12

you watch too many disney movies they actually bum you out

1:11:15

they make you more depressed it's okay to

1:11:17

watch disney movie here and there but you don't want

1:11:19

to basically be an disney plus all the time you don't want

1:11:21

your kids on disney plus all the time you want to give

1:11:23

them a a variety of stuff so

1:11:26

i'd invest is the one number one to buy always

1:11:28

makes people in terms of reading as i say

1:11:30

doesn't really matter what you we but you run

1:11:32

a little bit of diversity in there just like you want a

1:11:34

little bit of diversity in your diet you

1:11:36

know don't just always eat the same thing don't

1:11:38

always read the same vein reach out to

1:11:40

a friend of yours is one of a difference you

1:11:42

know and make that effort to the more you make that effort

1:11:44

the more you fight over time that it's really rewarded

1:11:46

and your brain will grow and you just

1:11:48

kind of find yourself exploring life

1:11:50

and doing things you could never have imagine i

1:11:53

love that know that feel like a good place for us to come

1:11:55

full circle on our conversation as well so

1:11:58

sitting here in this container have been life if

1:12:00

i offer up the phrase to live as at less

1:12:03

what comes out we

1:12:05

love and care thank

1:12:07

you

1:12:08

and hey before you leave

1:12:10

if you'd love this episode safe that you will also

1:12:12

love the conversation we had with liz

1:12:14

gilbert about creativity and storytelling

1:12:17

and writing and living and fully open

1:12:19

honest true and real life you'll

1:12:22

find a linked list this episode in the show

1:12:24

notes and of course if you haven't already

1:12:26

done so go ahead and followed good life project

1:12:28

in your favorite listening at and if you appreciate

1:12:30

the work that we've been doing here on the good life project

1:12:33

to check out my new book sparked it'll

1:12:35

reveal some incredibly eye opening

1:12:37

things about maybe wanna maybe your favorite

1:12:39

subjects you men show you

1:12:42

show to tap these insights to reimagined

1:12:44

and reinvent work as work as of meaning

1:12:47

purpose enjoy you'll find a link in the

1:12:49

show notes or you can also find it at your

1:12:51

favorite bookseller now until next time

1:12:53

i'm jonathan fields off for

1:12:55

good life