0:00

We've been very naive about how complicated

0:02

grief is in general and how long

0:04

grief lasts in general. So to put

0:06

these stamps and labels on grief is

0:08

sometimes helpful and then sometimes it's, you

0:11

know, we're just finally catching up in

0:13

some ways to what grief really just

0:15

is. What we need

0:17

to do is make a little more

0:19

space for different versions of grief, different

0:22

time periods for grief, different formulas for

0:24

grief. There really isn't a quick fix

0:26

for it or a one-size-fits-all. So

0:31

have you ever lost someone so close to you that

0:33

it felt like a piece of your soul was ripped

0:35

away? Like the pain would never end or maybe it

0:38

wasn't a person but rather a pet or a chosen

0:41

family-level friend or even

0:44

a job or a community. Grief, it turns

0:46

out, is not just about death. It's

0:48

about loss and we all

0:50

experience it. No one gets out without

0:52

it. When we experience

0:54

profound loss, it can turn our world completely

0:56

upside down. Many of us

0:59

would give anything to avoid living through

1:01

such anguish, but my guest today, Claire

1:03

Bidwell-Smith, argues that hidden

1:05

within grief is an incredible opportunity

1:07

for growth and meaning and

1:10

she also dives into why no

1:12

one in the early part of that journey can or

1:14

should even be thinking that way but over time, it

1:17

can become something very different, transformative

1:20

even. Claire is a licensed

1:22

therapist and author of the new book

1:24

Conscious Grieving, a transformative approach to healing

1:26

from loss. Recognized as

1:28

one of today's foremost experts on

1:30

grief, she strives to provide support

1:33

for all kinds of people, experiencing

1:35

all kinds of loss, fueled

1:37

by her own experience, losing

1:39

both parents at a very young age.

1:42

In our conversation, Claire shares how fully

1:44

engaging with your grief and leaning into

1:46

pain rather than avoiding it can lead

1:48

to deep personal transformation. She explains

1:50

the five different types of grief that

1:52

we all face, which I'd actually

1:54

never heard of before and it gave me a

1:56

powerful reframe From the expected loss

1:59

of a loved one to the

2:01

the unexpected greed they comes from

2:03

a major life change or more

2:05

ambiguous are complicated losses that you

2:07

feel deeply, but others can see.

2:09

She offers insight into how do

2:11

healthily process complicated grief when relationships

2:13

are less than perfect. And. We

2:15

also discussed the importance of grief, rituals

2:17

and signage, community as well as carrying

2:19

your lost loved ones with you through

2:22

embodying their legacy. If you experience loss

2:24

or are worried about how you might

2:26

handle it in the future, this conversation

2:28

will give you a profoundly new perspective

2:30

on with so said it's said, this

2:32

conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Feals and

2:34

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at invesco.com. Invesco distributors, Inc. It's

7:19

interesting. We're living in a time where I

7:22

feel like the word grief has

7:24

taken on different contexts and different

7:26

meanings. I

7:28

think an interesting starting point would really just be to

7:31

ask the question, what are we actually talking

7:33

about when we're talking about grief? That

7:36

is such a good question. What we

7:39

are talking about when we're talking about grief, I really

7:41

think is a series of emotions

7:43

that come with change. I

7:45

think we're talking about change a lot when we're

7:47

talking about loss. That

7:49

is something we are often resistant to.

7:52

There are so many feelings that come when

7:55

things change and when things fall away and

7:57

when our identities shift because of change.

8:00

externally and internally. And

8:02

so I really think it's the series of emotions

8:04

that come up around that. Sometimes it's fear, sometimes

8:07

it's relief, sometimes

8:09

it's exquisite anguish,

8:12

sometimes it's just like a dull sorrow. There's

8:15

so many different kinds of emotions that can

8:17

come, but I really think that

8:19

the entry point is change. For

8:22

a long time, grief has been relegated to the

8:24

loss of a person, which is what

8:26

we mostly think about when we think about grief. And

8:29

when that happens, we lose someone we love,

8:31

someone we're close to, it's not wanted,

8:33

it's not something we invited or sought.

8:36

And so in that way, I think

8:38

that there is a huge shift that

8:40

comes that's quite painful and unexpected sometimes,

8:43

even if the death itself was expected,

8:45

what comes with it is really difficult.

8:48

But we do grieve for all kinds of other things,

8:50

even when there's a positive change. You know, if

8:52

we're moving across the country or we take a

8:54

new job and we're leaving a beloved old job,

8:56

even if we know that this is positive change,

8:59

there is still some grief around letting go of

9:01

things. Yeah, I mean, no doubt,

9:03

it's interesting. The thing that came to mind

9:05

as you were just sharing that, in the last year,

9:07

we had a kid who graduated college who

9:10

had a fantastic time in her final year

9:12

especially. And it's so exciting, you're so

9:14

proud, and it's like opening up a chapter, and there's

9:16

so much possibility ahead of you. And at the same

9:18

time, it was like, I

9:21

had this immediate transference back to

9:23

me leaving college like decades earlier,

9:26

and remembering the feelings of

9:28

a sense of wonder and possibility, but also

9:31

just like, I may never see a lot

9:34

of these people. Again, I may never be back in this

9:36

place for years, if

9:38

not ever. Yeah. And

9:40

it is interesting how I feel like often

9:43

we have this sense of loss that simultaneously

9:45

co-exist with a sense of possibility. Absolutely,

9:48

yeah, I think that that's a really great example.

9:50

You know, it's very bittersweet in a lot of

9:52

ways, and it's the end of an era. You

9:55

know, you're excited to see your child go

9:57

off, but you're also gonna mourn.

10:00

and that we went through that ourselves too. Yeah,

10:03

it occurs to me also, we're having

10:05

this conversation on God willing, the back

10:07

end of a really brutal four years

10:09

and like the history of the world.

10:12

And while a lot of people

10:15

lost individuals, there was a bigger

10:17

loss that I think so many of us had, which

10:19

is this sense of this is the way that the

10:21

world is and that we can kind of count on

10:23

the fact that we can wake up tomorrow and it's

10:25

gonna look relatively the same. And

10:28

the blink of an eye, that was gone. Does

10:30

that in your mind, is that a form of

10:32

grief also? Yes, 100%. I

10:34

think we've finally really started to recognize

10:36

that kind of grief. We've been talking about it

10:38

more and more. I think we began

10:41

to talk about grief in new ways during the

10:43

pandemic, but as we hit

10:45

this four year anniversary of it, I think

10:47

that there's vestiges of it that we're

10:49

not even recognizing still that remain. But

10:52

what's interesting to me is that the way

10:54

you kind of phrase that about like kind of

10:57

life as we knew it, disappeared,

11:00

but that happens too when we lose someone we love.

11:03

And what's interesting to me is I see a lot

11:05

of anxiety occur within the

11:08

grief process. And I've been writing about that

11:10

for years. I was 18 when

11:12

my mother died. I was just starting college and

11:15

it was a similar experience to the pandemic. Life

11:17

as I knew it was suddenly gone. The

11:20

person who held our family together,

11:22

the person who was my go-to

11:24

for everything was suddenly gone. And

11:27

I didn't really know what the landscape

11:29

of my life looked like anymore with

11:31

her not in it. And

11:34

I think we experienced similar things in

11:36

the pandemic. That feeling of

11:38

just total uncertainty about

11:40

the future, what does it look like now

11:42

and who are we now and

11:44

what is to come and everything that you had

11:46

thought was going to happen or look like is

11:49

gone. And so I think that that's

11:51

a really interesting thing that

11:53

I saw happen worldwide for so

11:55

many people. Yeah, you brought

11:57

up the connection between grief and anxiety.

12:00

your last book actually was largely dove into

12:02

that. Take me into that more because I

12:04

think it's a really interesting relationship because I

12:06

feel like even before the

12:08

pandemic, the prevalence of

12:11

generalized anxiety had been

12:13

slowly creeping its way up and up and up

12:15

and becoming much and much more pervasive. And then

12:17

something like this hits. Talk

12:19

to me more about the relationship between grief and anxiety.

12:22

It's a really interesting relationship. I think

12:24

it's really multifaceted. There's a lot of

12:26

reasons that we can develop anxiety after

12:28

a big loss or have our anxiety

12:30

go up in levels after a big

12:32

loss. Some of it is due to

12:34

these changes that occur. Some people, when they go through

12:37

a big loss, they will have

12:39

to change jobs or their finances

12:41

will change or they lose childcare

12:43

partners or, you know, everything physically

12:45

even changes, not just the emotional

12:47

landscape. And that in and of

12:50

itself can cause anxiety. But

12:52

then there's also the reckoning with our mortality. I

12:54

mean, many of us who go through a big

12:56

loss, maybe we've never been through one before. Maybe

12:58

we thought we had acknowledged that death

13:01

was down the road at some point, but we

13:03

hadn't really felt it or experienced

13:05

it. And so suddenly you're looking

13:07

at life through a new lens.

13:10

Safety and certainty can go out the

13:12

window a lot of times with a

13:14

big loss and that causes anxiety. Some

13:16

kinds of trauma that come with loss, you

13:19

know, seeing someone through a traumatic death or

13:21

a long illness can be really

13:23

difficult and give you a really different sense

13:25

of the fragility of life

13:27

and of yourself and other

13:29

loved ones. Couple that

13:31

with just kind of our culture at

13:34

the moment, all the technology, all the

13:36

social media, everything else that's causing anxiety,

13:38

politics, war, the environment. There's so

13:41

much going on. And so it's

13:43

all kind of ripe for so

13:46

much extra anxiety that comes

13:48

on. Yeah, that makes so much sense. You

13:50

know, as you're describing that part of what's going through my

13:53

mind also is that when you

13:55

use the phrase safety and security And

13:57

when that goes away, or when it's nearly like

13:59

when. When you seriously dented which I

14:01

think it has been from most everybody in

14:03

some way shape or form I feel like

14:06

different people respond really different lay. Some people

14:08

look at that and they're like wow like

14:10

and life as fragile life is a nuke.

14:12

were made no promises I need to actually

14:14

be the person I want to be do

14:16

the things I wanna do like show at

14:18

the weather had need to show that have

14:21

always been afraid to and others to the

14:23

exact opposite direction from home. In your experience

14:25

is there more com and serve default to

14:27

that or is it really just all over

14:29

the place. To find out who you are,

14:31

what your history is. I think it's all

14:33

over the place and I think you can

14:35

inhabit both rounds. You know I need a

14:37

can be incredibly liberating it to go through

14:40

a last that kind of pears everything down

14:42

to. it's a sense. You know what matters

14:44

to you. What do you care about? What

14:46

do you want to do with your life

14:48

now that you kind of have this new

14:50

understanding that it can be terrifying and also

14:52

incredibly freeing to go through. And sorry I

14:54

really see some people inhabit both. They'll

14:57

become more anxious. Yep, Also more liberated

14:59

in terms of who they want

15:01

to be. And then you're right.

15:03

And then sept there's the two

15:05

thirds of excellence. And people really

15:07

go into some very anxious spaces.

15:10

And I think for those people,

15:12

there's also a part of themselves

15:14

they begin to explore that has

15:16

to deal with. Finding a new

15:18

framework for which to understand themselves

15:20

lies meaning. If they're not willing

15:22

to ask smith as really big

15:25

questions, they're gonna stay in that

15:27

state of anxiety. The the way

15:29

to scare me aside a new framework is interesting,

15:31

not your lungs. I had the chance to sit

15:33

down with Duffer tell it's or is where the

15:36

leading researchers on our and one of the way

15:38

he described as expensive as like you have a

15:40

model of the world and the experience of odd

15:42

some ways shatters it and you're left to essentially.

15:45

You're. Put together the pieces, To.

15:47

Form a new model because the old one

15:49

just doesn't exist anymore to seem to seem

15:51

it to a he's describing all. Sounds

15:53

also really similar to the way that

15:56

were describing elements of Greece. Absolutely. I

15:58

think it really does. shatter. your understanding

16:00

of the world and it changes your belief

16:02

system, whether you want it to or not,

16:05

and whether you resist it or not. It

16:07

really begins to. I

16:09

have seen people lose someone really

16:11

close to them and it seems almost

16:13

impossible for them at some point not

16:15

to wonder, where are they? Can

16:17

they see me? What happens when

16:20

we die? These really big existential

16:22

philosophical questions that they may have

16:24

never asked themselves before. And

16:26

I think that that is a part of the grief

16:28

process as well. It's a really interesting part,

16:30

but I think it's difficult for so many

16:32

people who don't have any kind of pre-existing

16:35

framework or have stepped away from a framework

16:37

that maybe they had growing up. Which

16:39

is interesting too, because for a lot of

16:42

folks, the framework that they had growing up

16:45

was in some way, shape or form

16:47

spirituality or religion, faith. And

16:49

that kind of said, this is the way that the world is.

16:51

Here are the rules by which we live. And

16:53

at the same time, when someone passes

16:55

on, here are the ways. Here are the

16:58

steps for grief. If

17:00

you do what you say, Shiba, there's

17:02

a process that tends to accompany those.

17:06

And as more and more people

17:08

leave organized religion and faith, I

17:11

wonder if you're seeing that have any

17:13

impact on people's ability to

17:15

access some sort of historical context

17:17

for how do I

17:19

do this thing? No, I really am seeing that

17:22

a lot. I think that people

17:24

are lacking ritual, they're lacking community

17:26

within their grief, they're lacking role

17:28

models and historical evidence that they

17:30

would have otherwise been able to

17:33

kind of lean into. And

17:35

I think we're seeing it so much more in

17:37

our younger generations, which might explain some of their

17:39

anxiety as well. And so

17:42

there's been this really big proliferation of

17:44

grief books and writing and work lately.

17:46

And I think it's because we're becoming

17:49

more non-sequelor. No, that makes

17:51

so much sense to me. You

17:53

make this distinction, you sort of create these categories.

17:55

You didn't create them, but you sort of you

17:57

map them. These five different

17:59

types. types of grief, anticipatory,

18:02

complicated, ambiguous, disenfranchised collective,

18:05

walk me through each of these a little bit because I've never seen

18:07

it sort of broken out this way. I thought it was really fascinating.

18:09

Yeah, I think it's helpful to really

18:11

be able to understand grief in different

18:13

ways. Anticipatory grief is the grief

18:15

that we feel when we know a loss is

18:17

coming. So maybe thinking about

18:20

empty nesting or you have a family

18:22

member with dementia or you know,

18:24

you're going to leave a job or maybe

18:26

you yourself have an illness that you're facing.

18:29

There's an anticipatory grief that comes

18:31

with knowing how much loss is

18:33

ahead. And that kind

18:35

of anticipatory grief is complicated. You know, it

18:38

brings a lot of anxiety because there is

18:40

that uncertainty and there's not a definite date

18:42

sometimes with some of these things. And so

18:44

you're often swimming in the

18:47

sea of what ifs and maybes

18:49

and thinking about things that haven't

18:51

quite happened yet. Ambiguous

18:53

grief and disenfranchised grief, those are

18:55

really for grief and loss that

18:57

are not as recognized, you know,

19:00

pet loss, divorce, illness,

19:02

racial disparity, you know, so many

19:04

different places that aren't necessarily

19:06

being recognized by our culture. And

19:10

so those are hard ones to carry

19:12

too. I think that grief is already

19:14

pretty lonely and isolating. And then when

19:16

you're carrying some of those, when

19:18

no one else can recognize them and

19:21

see what you're carrying that can feel

19:23

sometimes confusing, you may feel shame and

19:25

doubt around some of those. Yeah,

19:28

as you're describing those also, like one of the things

19:30

kind of in my mind I'm curious about is loss

19:33

of ability, you know, like, like most of

19:35

us at some point as we get further into life, like,

19:37

like if we're fortunate to, we will

19:39

lose some ability. And some of that may

19:41

be visible. But oftentimes it's invisible

19:43

or we may be struggling with some

19:45

sort of chronic dysfunction or illness or

19:48

disease or pain or suffering in some

19:50

way that others aren't aware of

19:52

unless we actually proactively make them aware

19:54

of. And yet, like

19:56

internally, we're dealing with that loss all

19:58

day every day is would that

20:00

sort of fall under these umbrellas

20:02

of ambiguous or disenfranchised grief in your

20:05

mind? Yeah, absolutely. I think

20:07

any kind of grief that isn't

20:09

recognized by those around us is

20:11

that ambiguous and disenfranchised grief. I

20:13

do really feel that it helps to

20:15

find communities in which we can talk

20:18

about our grief and loss and feel

20:20

seen by others who understand it or

20:22

are going through something similar. Again, it

20:24

is really lonely. I think so many

20:26

of the people that I work with,

20:28

they have a lot of questions and

20:30

confusion around their grief process, and they often think

20:32

that they're doing it wrong, and they

20:34

want to know, you know, what am I doing

20:37

wrong? And how do I do this? What's the

20:39

answer? Is there a formula? And there isn't a

20:41

quick fix to grief. It's

20:43

frustrating that grief can look so different

20:45

and feel so different in so many

20:47

different losses, but it's also

20:50

true. You know, each loss and each kind

20:52

of grief that you experience is going to

20:54

be different from the loss. You know, if

20:56

you lose both parents, the grief that you

20:58

feel for each one might feel really different

21:00

depending on the relationship, depending on the age

21:02

you are, depending on where you are in

21:05

life, all of those kinds of things. And

21:07

so finding ways to just

21:10

be able to recognize and talk about that

21:12

grief with other people who understand. But

21:14

when you carry something all day, every day by

21:17

yourself, you show up at work or you show

21:19

up in your family, and no one's really seeing

21:21

this grief that you're holding, you begin to doubt

21:23

it for yourself and you try to push it

21:25

away. And when we do

21:27

that, it always kind of backfires. Yeah,

21:30

I can't imagine that's gotta be a good thing. Complicated

21:33

grief. You

21:36

know, we've been talking a lot

21:38

about complicated grief in the kind

21:40

of psychological realms lately. We've been

21:42

talking a lot about extended grief.

21:45

And there are so many versions of

21:47

grief that become complicated or extended. I

21:50

think when we have a loss

21:52

that is complicated, maybe you were

21:55

not close to the person for a period of

21:57

time, or maybe there were things that were unresolved

21:59

and Maybe you were in a

22:01

relationship with someone who was somewhat abusive

22:03

or very abusive and yet you lose

22:06

them there's a complicated grief that goes

22:08

with that and I think that

22:11

that kind of grief takes more work because

22:13

there's so many layers to peel up There's

22:15

so many things that you kind of have

22:18

to work on before you can even get

22:20

to the pure raw grief You have to

22:22

sort through the relationship sort through the manner

22:24

in which things played out sort through guilt

22:27

or regret and and that

22:29

extends the grief process in a big way But

22:32

I also think that we've been very

22:35

naive about how complicated grief is in

22:37

general and how long grief lasts in

22:39

general So to put these stamps

22:42

and labels on grief is

22:44

sometimes helpful I think sometimes it's you

22:46

know, we're just finally catching

22:48

up in some ways to what grief really just

22:50

is Yeah, I think in some

22:52

ways, you know Everybody

22:54

has heard you know the five stages of

22:57

grief Which I know are now hotly debated

22:59

about whether it's accurate or not accurate useful

23:01

or harmful a lot of differing opinions

23:04

and But what it seems like a lot

23:06

of folks are coming around to know is this notion like

23:08

you're describing is that like there are gonna Be commonalities and

23:11

we can create these broader buckets

23:13

anticipatory complicated ambiguous disenfranchised collective But

23:16

those are you know, it's like looking at a study and

23:18

saying, you know, like most people experience

23:20

this but most people isn't they're not

23:23

you Right, right, you know and

23:25

it's like we're getting back to the fact that well

23:27

actually the way I may need to do this may

23:29

be Entirely unique to me and that

23:31

that's actually okay I don't need to look for the

23:33

steps and then make sure that I'm checking the boxes

23:35

of those steps Yeah, I think that that is what?

23:38

Made the five stages of grief a

23:40

little bit challenging, right? I think that

23:43

one of the things that people love

23:45

about Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's five stages Denialing or

23:47

bargaining depression acceptance is that they're formulaic

23:50

and people really often want this quick

23:52

fix for their grief Right there in

23:54

so much pain or anguish or their

23:57

lives have been so disrupted that they're

23:59

like great There's five things

24:01

I just need to go through and

24:03

I'm going to tick these boxes and

24:05

then they quickly find that those don't

24:07

really work in that order necessarily or

24:09

for them necessarily and so we've stuck

24:12

with them for so long. But I

24:14

understand the appeal of them. But

24:17

I think that what we need

24:19

to do is make a little

24:21

more space for different versions of

24:23

grief, different time periods for grief,

24:25

different formulas for grief. There

24:27

really isn't a quick fix for it or a

24:29

one size fits all which I think can be

24:31

disappointing to a lot of people. And

24:34

we've had so many displays on television and

24:36

movies about what grief is supposed to look

24:38

like. You know, we have these depictions of

24:41

the dark room and the sorrow and maybe

24:43

the anger, but that's not always what

24:46

grief is like for everybody. It's

24:48

interesting, right? Because if somebody gives you like, here's

24:50

the formula, like there are these five stages, first

24:53

you do one, then you do the next, then you do the next.

24:55

And then I could see this scenario

24:57

where somebody's like, okay, so I'm in one, it's

24:59

awful. I'm in two, it's a little

25:01

bit better. I'm in, now I'm in four, I'm so close

25:03

to the end. And then they wake up the next

25:06

day and they're like, I'm

25:08

feeling everything. That's in one,

25:10

which is like, then you're layering on

25:12

not just grief, but what's wrong with me? Like

25:15

then it's shame. No, I know. That's what

25:17

I see all the time. So much shame. So

25:19

many people are coming to me and they just say, I'm

25:22

doing this wrong. Something's wrong. Not like it

25:24

looks on TV or it doesn't fit into these

25:26

stages. I must be doing it wrong.

25:29

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So you all know I'm a huge fan

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use the code GOODLIFE. We've

29:46

talked a bit about what grief is. Where

29:48

do we get it wrong? I mean, is there an experience

29:50

where people are like, oh, I'm grieving or I'm in grief? But

29:53

there's really something else going on that's sort

29:56

of like a common misconception. I think where

29:58

we get it wrong is trying

30:00

to rush through it. I think we get

30:02

it wrong that it should be tidied up

30:04

within a few months or even a year.

30:06

Sometimes grief lasts much longer than that. You

30:09

lose a child. You're not just

30:11

one and done with grief after a year. You

30:13

know, that's a grief you're gonna carry with you

30:15

for your lifetime. I think we

30:18

get it wrong in terms of not

30:20

having enough rituals around it, not having

30:22

enough community around it. I

30:25

see a lot of healing occur when

30:27

people do find rituals to

30:29

rely upon communities to engage with

30:31

and talk about their grief with. But

30:34

what it looks like today most of the

30:36

time is you lose somebody and everybody

30:38

shows up in the first few weeks. You have

30:40

a few rituals, Memorial or Shiva in the first few

30:42

weeks, and then it's kind of over and you're back

30:45

to work and you're supposed to just kind of

30:47

be getting back to your regular life and back

30:49

to normal. When in reality, a lot

30:52

of people, their grief doesn't

30:54

even set in for the first six

30:56

months. You know, they're still processing that

30:58

this has happened. They're experiencing life changes

31:00

or having to deal with tasks

31:02

and administrative duties. And

31:04

then the real grief begins to set in

31:07

at the same time that everybody's expecting them

31:09

to be back to normal. So then they

31:11

start expecting themselves to be back to normal.

31:14

And that's when they start pushing the grief

31:16

away. And when we push the grief away,

31:18

we're bottling it all up. We're not really

31:20

sitting with the stuff that needs to be

31:22

processed and explored. Yeah, and I know this

31:25

is one of the things that you write

31:27

about in the movie. Is the notion of

31:29

engaging with the grief. And

31:31

I want to dive into some of the ideas around

31:33

like how we might engage in a way that actually

31:35

is helpful. But you know, it also

31:37

brings up the question of, is

31:40

the ability to engage with

31:42

grief in a healthy and

31:44

constructive way privilege that some

31:46

people just don't have? Or if

31:48

you're working three jobs, you know, and

31:50

just trying to get by and supporting

31:52

a family and a partner passes, you

31:55

can't stop working and you may not have

31:57

the resources to certainly. So as part

31:59

of that, Another question is, is

32:01

the ability to navigate grief

32:04

in a way that is

32:06

holistic and healthy and constructive as much

32:08

as it can be, is that

32:10

the domain of certain people but not others

32:13

or does everybody have access to this? I

32:15

do believe everyone has access to it.

32:17

I think that there is a privileged

32:19

level of course where there are people

32:21

who can afford to take time off

32:24

and go to expensive therapists or do

32:26

all kinds of self-care for themselves in

32:28

grief and take time to just

32:30

be with themselves during that kind of process.

32:32

That is a very privileged place from which

32:34

to deal with your grief. However

32:36

I think there's a lot of ways we can engage with it. I

32:39

think that even if you're working a

32:41

lot of jobs, even if you have a busy family

32:43

that you're taking care of, a lot of

32:46

obligations, there's still time to meditate

32:48

for five minutes, write in a journal

32:51

for five minutes, seek out an online

32:53

community at no or low cost that

32:55

can help you during a lunch hour

32:58

get through some things. I

33:00

think the main thing to engage with about

33:02

grief is just to make space for it.

33:05

Making space for it is talking about

33:07

it, acknowledging it, trying not to just carry

33:09

it without ever talking about it. That's

33:12

when things really go awry. If

33:15

you can even make, I tell my clients, you

33:17

can schedule your grief sometimes if you need

33:19

to. Set aside some

33:21

time on a Sunday morning or a Saturday

33:23

afternoon when you don't have as many obligations

33:26

and sit down and open up

33:28

the grief. Open it up by

33:30

looking at photos, by playing music, by

33:32

talking about your person and bring the grief

33:35

on, cry, rage, do whatever you need to

33:37

do. It

33:39

really does help you go back into your life

33:42

and take care of the regular day-to-day things

33:44

when you've made a little space for it.

33:47

I do a lot of group work. In the

33:50

grief work I do, I do retreats and groups

33:52

and online groups. When people come

33:54

together, even just for an hour on a

33:56

Zoom, and talk about what is going on

33:58

with them for their purpose. grief, then they

34:00

can go back to their job as a

34:02

teacher or go back to whatever it was

34:04

that they were doing prior to jumping on

34:06

a Zoom in their car for 45 minutes.

34:08

It really helps. It really helps them kind

34:11

of be able to hold it in a

34:13

different way as they do get through their

34:15

days. I mean, you just shared two

34:17

ideas, which I think are just, I want to make

34:19

sure that they land. Yeah, like there, one is the

34:21

idea of scheduling. Like here's a window,

34:23

which I think is really powerful. And

34:25

then the idea is like, don't do this alone,

34:27

like find some sort of community where you can

34:29

share this experience. On the scheduling

34:31

one, I'm curious also because I've also

34:34

heard this for anxiety. Sort

34:36

of like, you know, like if you're in a spin cycle, you

34:38

basically like set aside 15 minutes a day

34:41

and just let it out and journal on

34:43

it and speak it and cry and do

34:45

all this stuff, like process it. In

34:47

that context, you know, it often

34:49

can be helpful for people from what I understand. It

34:52

doesn't mean that it entirely goes away. You won't have

34:54

it in other moments, but I feel like

34:56

there's almost like a tipping point

34:58

and it helps lower the water

35:00

in that well a little bit. So you can, you know, it

35:02

takes a little bit more to get you back to that point

35:05

with grief. As you're describing

35:07

this, I had this flashback a number

35:09

of years ago in conversation with Liz

35:12

Gilbert, who lost had recently lost her

35:14

partner. And she described to

35:16

me, you know, like being months down from it

35:18

and she thought she was kind of okay walking

35:20

down the street in East Village in New York.

35:23

And she described what she called a carve out

35:25

moment. She was like, literally, she's walking down the

35:27

street, her knees would buckle and she would be

35:30

sobbing. And so

35:32

I'm curious about the notion of, okay,

35:34

so scheduling grief, take a

35:36

half an hour or whatever it is every day and

35:38

just be in it completely immerse her in

35:40

it. But this still doesn't

35:42

negate these random moments where it's just

35:45

going to completely hate you, doesn't know

35:47

it definitely doesn't. I think

35:49

it does help. Like you said, that tipping point,

35:51

it lowers the water a little bit when you

35:53

are because if you're not making any space for

35:55

it, those tip over moments are going to be

35:58

much bigger. Your knees are going to have really

36:00

buckle. But you're right, it doesn't

36:02

take away from that entirely. There's always

36:04

going to be triggers that arise. You might

36:06

see somebody who looks like your person or

36:08

you might hear a song when you're at

36:10

the store, you know, there's something might happen

36:12

that just kind of brings you to your

36:14

knees and really brings all of that grief.

36:17

But if you're already in a place where

36:19

you are making space for it regularly, you're

36:21

getting more comfortable with it, right? I

36:24

think that's the thing. I have so many people tell me

36:26

they're afraid to start crying because

36:28

they fear they'll never stop. They're afraid to

36:30

open the door to their grief. But I think if

36:32

you're keeping the door open on a regular

36:34

basis, you're not as afraid of it. And

36:36

so when those big waves of grief come

36:39

on, you kind of know how to ride

36:41

them a little better. Does that make sense?

36:43

Yeah, I mean, I think it does. It's

36:45

sort of like it's like

36:47

grief exposure therapy to a certain

36:49

extent, right? Yeah. Not willfully, but it is what

36:51

it is. And so like the more, and

36:54

I'm curious from your place, from a therapeutic standpoint, is

36:56

it the type of thing that you've seen where the

36:59

more you allow it, the more

37:01

you just completely feel it, and

37:04

then realize that I don't

37:06

want to say you get through it, or there's an other side

37:08

to it, but that you can find a way to sort

37:11

of like come back to a place

37:13

where you're a whole enough and you're

37:15

okay enough to step back into your

37:17

life to a certain extent, that the more that

37:19

you do that, the more that your brain starts

37:21

to learn, oh, I can do this. And

37:24

that that's a helpful part of the process too. Yeah,

37:27

exactly. It's about learning how to carry grief, you

37:29

know, how to carry it for a long time,

37:31

perhaps. And so the more used to it that

37:33

you become of riding those waves of it, of

37:35

letting it in, you do start

37:37

to realize, oh, I can completely break down

37:39

and sob and howl like an animal

37:41

on the floor for 45 minutes. And then I

37:43

can actually get up and make dinner. And I

37:45

did that last week. So maybe I can do

37:47

it again this week, you know, but

37:50

the first few times that that happens, it

37:52

can be so frightening, so

37:54

overwhelming. This is another one of

37:56

those places where anxiety sets in because sometimes

37:59

you don't even know you're Can you

38:01

trust yourself to get in a car or be in your marriage

38:03

or take care of your kids? You

38:10

don't know when you're going to have one of those

38:12

breakdowns or who you are all the time anymore. That

38:15

can be really anxiety provoking. Yeah.

38:18

I mean, it's an impact your identity in a small

38:20

way. I actually want to deepen into that, but before

38:22

we get there, because I want

38:24

to close this loop of letting it flow at the

38:26

moment that you need to let it flow, it's going

38:29

to hit you in random contexts like you described. It's going

38:31

to hit you at work when you're home with your kids

38:33

or your partner out with friends or at the gym, whatever

38:35

it may be. How do

38:38

you approach advising somebody

38:40

to sort of prepare

38:42

those around them to understand

38:45

what's happening

38:47

and be with them in a

38:50

way where you feel like you

38:52

can feel what you need to feel and express

38:54

what you need to express. They

38:56

feel like they understand how to just

38:59

be there with you and they understand what's

39:02

going on. It's a good question. You

39:05

can only prepare people so much. There are some

39:07

people who really can't stand to see others in

39:09

pain or they really want to tidy up your

39:11

grief or they want to try to fix it

39:13

and there's not really going to come a place

39:15

where they can hold that space for

39:18

you. I see this all the time

39:20

and hear about it all the time from the people I

39:22

work with, even family members,

39:25

they just can't allow them to sit

39:27

in that pain. They're constantly trying to

39:29

fix it or trying to offer them

39:31

some positive ideas and, well, at

39:33

least this or think about that and be

39:35

grateful for this. You're always

39:38

going to have those kinds of people in your

39:40

life. I think, again, this

39:42

goes back to the idea of community, finding

39:44

people who can allow for that space for

39:46

you, who can see you, who can just

39:49

let you be where you are in your

39:51

grief is really important. Sometimes

39:53

as our family members and close friends, sometimes they're

39:55

new people. Sometimes they're strangers you meet in a

39:57

grief group or, you know, how do you feel?

40:00

at work even when you share about going through

40:02

a loss, there's a saying about

40:04

increase, strangers become friends

40:06

and friends become strangers because

40:09

there are people that really have a

40:11

hard time with other people grieving. And

40:14

it's one of the secondary losses that I

40:16

think comes with other big losses. You start

40:18

to really kind of shift

40:20

everyone that you're connected to, who

40:23

can show up for you and who can't. That

40:26

said, to answer your question properly, I

40:28

do think that you can tell people,

40:30

you could send a text message or an email or

40:32

text them into their face like, hey,

40:34

I'm really going through this with my grief. I

40:37

feel like I'm doing okay with it, but there are

40:39

definitely moments where I'm struggling and this is what it

40:41

might look like and this is how you can show

40:43

up for me. Either just

40:46

hold space for me when I'm crying or

40:48

come over and hang out with me or

40:50

distract me or help me talk about my

40:52

person, share memories with me that you have.

40:55

There are ways we can definitely do that. And

40:57

I think there are people who will show up

40:59

and especially if you can tell them a couple

41:01

of things that they can do for you, please

41:04

come empty my trash every Tuesday, whatever

41:06

it is, people like to try

41:08

to help. And if you give them some idea

41:10

of like, hey, this is what's going on, it's

41:12

almost like expect it. And

41:14

then here are a couple of things that

41:16

would be okay to do or even welcome

41:19

to do in these scenarios. So that

41:21

I think so many people probably back

41:23

away, not because they don't want

41:26

to support somebody who's losing grief, but

41:28

because A, they're probably reminds them of

41:30

their own potential for loss and B,

41:32

they just don't know what to do and

41:34

they're kind of terrified of saying or

41:36

doing the wrong thing and actually making things worse. That's

41:39

true. They're always afraid to say the

41:42

wrong thing. And there really isn't a

41:44

perfect thing to say. I think you can say,

41:46

I'm here, I'm so sorry, I'm here.

41:49

Anything you need, I'm right here. Just

41:52

to be with somebody and their grief, I think

41:54

it's important. But a lot of times people won't

41:56

say anything at all. And I think that that

41:58

hurts a lot more. so afraid

42:00

of saying the wrong thing, or often they'll say

42:02

that they're afraid to bring up the death because

42:05

they don't want to make the person sad. And

42:07

then I hear all the people who are grieving

42:09

say, what do you mean? I'm already thinking about

42:11

it all the time. You think

42:13

you bringing it up is gonna remind

42:15

me? It's already with me every moment.

42:17

I would imagine also that there's probably

42:19

a difference between people who

42:22

have experienced profound grief in their

42:24

lives and those who haven't yet.

42:26

We all will at some point. It's just, it's

42:28

coming. And the way they respond, it's

42:30

almost like if you've been through it and

42:33

you understand at least how it affected

42:36

you, that you might show up differently.

42:38

I'm curious whether you see that. I do. It's

42:40

a terrible club that nobody wants to be part of,

42:43

but once you're part of it, you really do understand

42:45

how it works. And I

42:48

have sat in rooms full of people who

42:50

have gone through profound loss, and I have

42:52

felt more understood in those rooms than with

42:55

close friends of mine. And

42:57

I think that, I think

42:59

it's really hard to understand it. I don't

43:01

fault the people who don't. I think it's

43:03

just really, really difficult to understand it until

43:05

you've been through it. Now that

43:07

makes a lot of sense. You use the phrase

43:09

secondary loss, and this is in fact one of the things that

43:12

you write about. So take me into this

43:14

a little bit more because it's really interesting, sort of

43:16

like quote, additional context for

43:18

grief. It's almost like piling on.

43:21

Yeah, I mean, I think

43:23

about a group of widows that I

43:25

work with and all the secondary losses

43:27

that they've occurred, their social lives have

43:30

changed. They don't wanna go

43:32

out as much with all the couples anymore.

43:34

Their finances have changed. Their

43:37

grandparents' lives have changed. There's

43:39

so many secondary losses that come with

43:41

the loss of their spouse that

43:44

other people don't always think about. They recognize,

43:46

okay, yes, this person lost their spouse, but

43:49

they're not thinking about all the ways their

43:51

lives changed as well, and all

43:53

the kind of tiny losses that they're facing on

43:55

a daily basis. When it comes

43:57

to those things, if you

43:59

lose... somebody and maybe that person

44:02

was a major contributor

44:04

to your financial stability. Yeah, it happens all

44:06

the time. Okay, wait a minute, so now

44:08

all of a sudden it's not just this

44:10

person where there's a vacuum. Now

44:12

I'm both grieving that and then I'm

44:15

grieving what I thought would be my

44:17

secure staple. Everything's gonna be okay, financial

44:19

life. And especially if you

44:21

have people who are looking to you

44:23

to continue to present sort of like that

44:27

that we're gonna be okay thing. Like if you're a

44:29

parent and you have kids, that's

44:31

gotta be just brutally hard. It's really hard

44:34

or even physical touch when you lose a

44:36

spouse. I was talking to a young widow

44:39

the other day and she was talking about

44:41

just physical touch. She hasn't been, she doesn't

44:43

really have any, her friends

44:45

hug her here and there or family, but

44:47

it's like she hasn't even just gotten a

44:49

really good, close, intimate hug since

44:51

her husband died. So

44:56

you all know I'm a huge fan of our friend Glennon Doyle. We've

45:00

actually had her on the show twice and

45:02

a transcript of our first conversation actually appears

45:04

in the paperback of her book, Love Warrior.

45:07

Glennon's vulnerability and her kindness and her just

45:09

straight up wisdom are things that I really

45:11

aspire to. Well, Glennon along with her amazing

45:13

wife, Abby Wambach, who's also been a guest

45:16

on the show. And Glennon's sister, Amanda, they

45:18

host an amazing podcast called We Can Do

45:20

Hard Things. And it's really something special. I

45:23

mean, imagine sitting down with the people you

45:25

love most and having this honest, no

45:27

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45:29

in life. That's exactly what Glennon, Abby

45:32

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45:34

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45:36

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45:45

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45:47

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45:50

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45:52

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45:54

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45:57

join our friends every Tuesday and Thursday for We

45:59

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46:03

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46:10

Hello, I'm Paddy O'Donnell, color expert for

46:12

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46:14

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46:17

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46:19

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Inc. One

47:20

of the things that you mentioned earlier also as a

47:22

category, but you kind of dive into it a bit

47:24

more as this notion of complex or

47:27

complicated grief and not all

47:29

loss. If we're talking about loss

47:32

of a person, I would imagine that complicated

47:34

grief can also extend to beyond people,

47:37

their paradigms and context. You probably feel

47:39

pretty mixed about, you know, you could

47:41

be leaving a horribly

47:43

toxic job that you feel terrible about

47:45

it. And it's like, you can't wait

47:47

to get away from it. And at

47:49

the same time, you're leaving behind maybe

47:51

10 years of credibility and

47:54

building the resume and building

47:56

social currency and then stepping into the abyss.

47:59

But especially in. The context of. Losing.

48:02

Somebody read the relationship with an individual.

48:04

Was. Really complicated. It.

48:06

Seems like that is something that

48:09

is. More. Common than

48:11

maybe I realized And really adds.

48:14

Not. Just complexity to the relationship that

48:16

was, but complicity to the way that

48:18

you grieve that loss. Absolutely. I

48:20

have a lot of clients who have lost

48:22

a parent with him. They had a complicated

48:25

relationship with a mother. Or father. Or

48:27

maybe they were strange from them

48:29

to a certain extent. Maybe it

48:31

was always complicated. And there's

48:33

a lot that's left unresolved when

48:35

you go through that kind of

48:37

loss. They also see our some

48:40

of that disenfranchised. Grief and some ways

48:42

because they feel like their grief that supposed

48:44

to look like everyone else is and people

48:46

who don't really know them on the outside

48:48

will say i'm so sorry about your mom.

48:51

And it's complicated and they and they don't

48:53

have to say thank see an hour without

48:55

wanting to go into. It necessarily about. Well,

48:57

you know I haven't talked or in

48:59

ten years or. Whatever the kid says,

49:01

but there's a lot of just kind. Of

49:03

layers to sift through. your also grieving

49:05

the relationship he never got to have.

49:08

You're grieving the kind of hope that

49:10

you were may be holding out on

49:12

that the relationship could change at some

49:14

point on the railroad am. And so

49:16

all of those layers are things that

49:18

you really kind of has to process

49:20

and and think about ways to work

49:22

through a really different than than losing

49:24

someone who maybe you are really close

49:26

went and have a healthy relationship with.

49:29

Them. In. This context of a

49:31

more complicated relationship with the person

49:33

that you've lost. But are there

49:35

any certainly generals things that common

49:37

things that you might think about

49:39

like or refrains or they knew

49:41

when you're trying to figure out

49:43

why process. It's almost a

49:45

how do I grieve and simultaneously process

49:47

the relationship that I had with this

49:50

person that was really complex and maybe

49:52

not good. Where. I can even get

49:54

to a place where I feel of take grieving.

49:57

Know that makes sense. I think first there

49:59

has to. The passing of the relationship

50:01

because when someone dies if really has

50:03

come to an end. In many ways,

50:06

I'm not every way. I do think

50:08

that we have extended relationships with the

50:10

people that we lose even after death.

50:12

There's internal versions of that. There's spiritual

50:15

aspects of those relationships a can continue,

50:17

but we are. It's really having to

50:19

look at this kind of finality of

50:21

this was the relationship. You know This

50:24

started here and ended share and only

50:26

when not really happens. You may have

50:28

gone to therapy for years. And process

50:30

that complicated relationship. But when the person dies,

50:32

there's a new. There's a new layer to

50:35

a it in which you're really looking at

50:37

the whole of the relationship and the middle

50:39

of the beginning. The and. And

50:41

such as a processing about that I think

50:44

has to occur. and then there's a green

50:46

Beckham said well and sometimes you can even

50:48

get to that greece until you've process and

50:50

that the really sunset. And then even with

50:52

the grease, I think there's lots of different

50:55

areas of the grief. That. You can

50:57

work through said there's you can freeze the

50:59

relationship. You didn't have his injuries. A good

51:01

parts is there were good parts of the

51:03

relationship. You know you can grieve some of

51:06

that complicated aspects. The harder aspects of it.

51:08

You can tease them apart isn't treat them

51:10

as a whole specific. There's all kinds of

51:12

things. You can see what that says almost

51:15

akin to compartmentalize. Elements of it has process

51:17

and I and I think you have to

51:19

with a complicated when you know. I think

51:21

we put a lot of pressure on ourselves

51:24

to decide where marry another. I can't breathe.

51:26

This person. Because you know it's complicated relationship

51:28

or my you know my dad was was

51:30

abusive to mean I can't sell grief for

51:32

him. he sister so greasy. Now you can

51:35

tease these things apart. It doesn't have to

51:37

be so black and white. You can miss

51:39

them and left them and hate them and

51:41

resent them. and you could have all of

51:43

these complicated emotions all M One Bucket. You.

51:46

Know syncing says as you're describing that of things

51:48

are so but yeah but you can ever resolve

51:50

it with them anymore. They set up a taste

51:52

less but for so many people. There

51:54

really wasn't an opportunity to resolve it

51:56

with them while they're alive because there's

51:58

so much history with. And nobody's

52:01

both. people aren't willing to actually sit on

52:03

the say let's do the work together so

52:05

it's something that is really on us to

52:07

resolve. The now in in

52:09

their death but also. It. Was

52:11

probably largely a loss to resolve even like

52:14

during that person's life because it would never

52:16

be processed by just. Having to

52:18

people sit down say we're both ready Mustn't

52:20

do this like the I would imagine. That's

52:23

pretty unusual. Likely that rarely happens at sea.

52:25

Have to find these other pathways to do

52:27

it. And. The Elite. A lot of what

52:29

you're describing his I think the spurs to

52:31

somebody feeling like I was wronged by this

52:33

person would call it a parent or guardian,

52:35

whoever it may be, and we never got

52:37

to resolve that. What has the

52:39

experience of somebody where you feel like. I

52:42

was actually the person who caused harm. And

52:45

I never made amends and I

52:47

never saw forgiveness. I never did

52:50

d like these things and that

52:52

person last with me. never actually

52:54

being able to serve like unburden

52:57

myself. I. Think

52:59

we see that one a lot till I

53:01

think that there's a lot of things that.

53:03

Elizabeth Taylor Ross had it at a club

53:05

that sad guilt is perhaps creeps mess painful

53:07

companion and I see people carry a lot

53:10

of guts and regret and remorse. Whether it's

53:12

if it's their fault, that of it's a

53:14

complicated relationship or they feel they made some

53:16

kind of mistake or errors. you know at

53:19

some point or towards the end. I me

53:21

see a lot of caregivers go through a

53:23

lot of her gram of arts You know

53:25

ways that they handled things are didn't because

53:28

of the amounts of stress on them. I

53:30

wasn't dare. The night my mom died I

53:32

was eighteen. And it's a college. I

53:34

knew she was dying. my dad had called

53:36

me to tell me that she was dying

53:39

of that I could come to the hospital

53:41

and I stopped that night to see a

53:43

boy and my mom died while I was

53:46

there that night at the White House and

53:48

for years I wanted to tear my skin

53:50

off with the amount of celts I had

53:52

and regret over not being there And I

53:55

finally sat down and I began to write

53:57

her ladders. All the time and I really

53:59

needed the say a lot. There were so

54:01

much that was just constantly inside of me.

54:04

Earning up to say to her and not

54:06

having an outlet was just making things even

54:08

more painful. And so when I started to

54:10

write to her, was really helpful and was

54:12

able to say all of the things that

54:14

I really wanted to so I don't know

54:17

if she could hear them are you know?

54:19

it wasn't about that, it was just that

54:21

I needed to actually take them out of

54:23

me. I needed to see them to her

54:25

arms. I think there are ways that we

54:28

can work through some of that. House

54:30

I had to do a lot of self

54:32

compassion and forgiveness work around. That now are

54:34

to grow up and realize that I was.

54:36

Eighteen and I made a stupid toy.

54:38

it's you now and that We're human

54:40

and it's really hard to say goodbye

54:42

to people we love and it's really

54:44

hard to do everything exactly right And

54:46

so were the choices we make, especially

54:48

at that age. You know there's seemingly

54:50

in consequential in the moments and it's

54:53

only after disasters to become some the

54:55

most consequential choices that we've ever made

54:57

their lives race. but it's only hindsight

54:59

is it's a certain sense had insulted

55:01

after that made it so we can

55:03

never eat like really yeah it's he

55:05

was describing the letter writing. Process of denser

55:07

the sewers possess psychologists describes as Process said

55:09

he calcium Marty selling internally. The gratitude visit

55:11

as a really popular thing York City Bus

55:14

somebody in your past two years has really

55:16

made a difference in a life. We never

55:18

express it in and sit down and hit

55:20

right a full letter explaining how much they

55:22

meant and then sense them or a as

55:24

a read it to them, call him up

55:26

a few minutes and then Dan said but

55:29

once they're not there anymore I'm A He

55:31

had a seer background in addition to positive

55:33

and so he created this version that he

55:35

would. He thought the virtual. Gratitude Visit Whereas

55:37

I basically you sit in a chair and

55:40

and says it at applying chair across from

55:42

you. And. Then imagine that person is air

55:44

and and right the same letters at him. And

55:47

read it to them. And then you sit

55:49

in their chair as if you're the one

55:51

who's had to let her read to He

55:53

received his is in the context of gratitude

55:55

you for person who either you know or

55:57

have access to lawyers who is past is

55:59

Neil Young. with you but I wonder

56:01

if is like something like that Also.

56:04

You. Feel like would be an effective thing

56:06

to do in order to. Do.

56:08

What you're describing like they basically there's all

56:10

this and that you're tearing and creed. almost

56:12

like this virtual scenario. Yeah, be able to

56:15

express it. I have clients to things like

56:17

that all the time. Whether it's inception and

56:19

I asked them to imagine that their person

56:21

is sitting here and what what they say

56:24

to them or have them go home and

56:26

might a ladder and come back and talk

56:28

about the experience of it's the letter writing.

56:30

It's really really powerful is different from talking

56:33

about air or talking out loud to your

56:35

person or saying in your head when you

56:37

really. Sit down, especially handwriting. And right

56:39

those letters. Dear Mom, You know there's

56:42

something that you really feel in that.

56:44

and it's okay that they're not here.

56:46

You really can't conceal that you're saying

56:48

that to them. I love that that's

56:50

right in line with what I do

56:52

believe. He said a couple things along

56:54

the way also. That without using

56:56

the word identity really spoke to the

56:59

way that brief can changes on an

57:01

again level and as that you use

57:03

of or transform a lot of the

57:05

likely speak when you write and also

57:08

offer greece up as as process that

57:10

yes can be brutally hard but also

57:12

that holds this potential for. Transformation.

57:16

And number of different ways to take me into that

57:18

a bit more. I do use the

57:20

were transform and transformation A I and I believe in

57:22

A in our I think for a long time we've.

57:24

Looked at Greece has that's horrible thing in

57:26

this affliction that we need to kind of

57:28

get thrill and get over. But I

57:30

think that there is a lot of. Really beautiful

57:32

things to find with increase I think.

57:34

A teacher that's a lot about ourselves.

57:36

I think it asks a lot of

57:38

us, asks us to think about things

57:40

we'd never thought about before. A philosophical

57:42

things, existential things just what matters to

57:44

us, who we want in our lives.

57:47

Again, there's some liberating aspects of it.

57:49

you know it can really help us

57:51

and of discard ways of being in

57:53

the world are things we that we

57:55

no longer care about. In the in

57:57

light of this kind of loss, it's

57:59

a really high. The thing to hear about

58:01

when you're in the beginning of a big loss

58:03

to really hard. you don't wanna hear about transforming

58:05

our offices the you just want your person back.

58:07

You want to be out of this pain and

58:09

agony. What yourself back. You want your life to

58:12

go back to the way it was. You don't

58:14

care about transforming since he. He really

58:16

doubt it's something that comes in time, and

58:18

it comes in so many little bits and

58:20

pieces that it's almost upon you before you've

58:22

realized. You know? after a while, all these

58:25

little bits. And pieces have occurred to

58:27

release, shift your identity and to change

58:29

your view of the world. I think

58:31

there's a real kind of letting go

58:33

of ourselves in there and the person

58:36

we once were when we lose someone

58:38

else and when we get to the

58:40

other side of that, throw a lot

58:43

of pain and fire and English through

58:45

nice buckling on sidewalks. You know, through

58:47

in our losing finances and having to

58:49

make all kinds of changes. Ah, the

58:52

secondary law says there is a place

58:54

reaching get to sound. The road that

58:56

really dies. We will look back and we

58:58

reflect and we think wow I have grown

59:00

so much and I have changed so much.

59:03

And there's a crease and that to I mean

59:05

you know you think oh my god. My person

59:07

never saw me become. Who I

59:09

am now and thera pieces of be now. They're

59:11

better than before, but again, that's really hard to

59:14

hear in the beginning, and I'm always aware of

59:16

that. I'm conscious of that, and when I always

59:18

kind of call that out, it's like another part

59:20

of that club that you don't want to be

59:22

part of. The people have been in it for

59:25

a long time know that there's there's some light

59:27

at the end of the tunnel, but the people

59:29

who are just arriving to the club you know

59:31

we don't talk about it right away. That

59:35

makes sense now. I know

59:37

for you you mentioned your mom a mule

59:39

awesome on what you were eighteen and it

59:41

is I recall correctly you should dad when

59:43

you are and twenty size as well. See

59:46

you Young for both of them Super young.

59:49

When. You think about how

59:51

that experience eventually. Landed.

59:53

In transformation for you have what

59:56

it atlas. With hard

59:58

they both got cancer the same time and

1:00:00

I. Was fourteen, them an only

1:00:02

child and my mom died at

1:00:04

eighteen and then my father and

1:00:07

seven years later I was his

1:00:09

caregiver in hospice. And my mother

1:00:11

had it's very medicalized death that none

1:00:13

of us faced. My father says a

1:00:15

really different approach and and wanted to

1:00:17

be very present to his death and

1:00:19

he asked me to be a scowl

1:00:21

and so she had a very beautiful

1:00:23

death. Grateful for having been there for

1:00:25

and having some kind of walk me

1:00:27

into it and of his last creek

1:00:29

just as a parent But then I

1:00:31

was twenty five and very very alone

1:00:33

in the world. ends at a time

1:00:35

when all of my peers were in

1:00:37

a really different place so I struggled

1:00:39

farm. A good many years and that

1:00:42

paring down began to hop and I was

1:00:44

working as a writer my twenties. I really

1:00:46

wanted to to write books which I have

1:00:48

an ideal and I was working as like

1:00:50

a travel and of food writer and suddenly

1:00:52

I just couldn't do it. I didn't care

1:00:54

about. These things are these things that were either

1:00:56

seemingly really find you get to go see a nice

1:00:58

hotels of good restaurants in my them and out. It's

1:01:01

like I don't care about any of this

1:01:03

anymore and he started to make shifts in

1:01:05

terms of the work I did. I worked

1:01:07

for non profits for a while and then

1:01:09

I decided to go back and get my

1:01:11

masters and my first job out of that

1:01:13

was in hospice because I just kept seeking

1:01:15

experiences that mattered. And so while I was

1:01:17

still a lot of. Pain and a lot of

1:01:20

Greece and sometimes feeling very alone. I

1:01:22

was really finding things that mattered to

1:01:24

me, and I was finding things that

1:01:26

were meaningful and there were so much

1:01:28

beauty and that and that was where

1:01:30

the transformation really started to occur. To.

1:01:32

Me to so they can in no small

1:01:34

way is to lead you into your vacation.

1:01:37

In. This became essential devotion for

1:01:39

you and remain so for your

1:01:41

utilize. It. Did I loved? It's

1:01:43

where people ask me all the time. Isn't

1:01:46

it sad? Isn't it has the and yeah

1:01:48

of course it is. Of course there are

1:01:50

moments when it's it's so sad and the

1:01:53

stories that I hear every day or really

1:01:55

really sad or scary. but also, it's

1:01:57

so beautiful. It's all about relationships. And

1:01:59

Laos and I'm sitting with people every

1:02:01

day in some of their. Like truest

1:02:03

moments of humanity. And now they're

1:02:05

just at their most ross version

1:02:07

of themselves. And that's an incredible

1:02:09

experience. And there's so much beauty

1:02:12

and seeing how connected we are

1:02:14

to each other, how much we

1:02:16

love each other? It's really profound.

1:02:18

Isn't that so much of a

1:02:20

p yearn for on a daily

1:02:22

basis just to be. Actually

1:02:24

seen for who your and you see,

1:02:26

others for who they are, all the

1:02:29

shields and all of the Sars. And

1:02:31

just to be wrong and real I

1:02:33

mean you get to experience that on

1:02:35

a regular basis. granted is a context

1:02:37

and is also laden with a whole

1:02:40

lot of other like deep emotion and

1:02:42

loss and and hardness. Do.

1:02:44

You ever wonder whether. There's.

1:02:46

A way for us to access

1:02:49

at that level of connectedness a

1:02:51

regular basis. Without. Having to

1:02:53

be so brought to our nice. I.

1:02:55

Would like to say yes and I hope

1:02:58

it it happens. I know that everyone that

1:03:00

I now in the in the end of

1:03:02

light space and increase space people who do

1:03:04

this work and they usually come from it

1:03:06

from a personal place like I have we

1:03:08

all have some of them as a vibrant

1:03:10

lives I know I them we don't take

1:03:12

things for granted. And we those moments of

1:03:15

connection that we have with each other, even

1:03:17

if we're just getting coffee, can become some.

1:03:19

Meaningful the cats, the walk and needs. Valley is

1:03:21

all the time with other people but I I

1:03:24

don't I liked as I would like to think

1:03:26

that we can. Hear. The

1:03:28

end of the day. So much of

1:03:30

this worth is also about how do

1:03:32

we tell The story has meaning in

1:03:35

our lives and in the lives of

1:03:37

those who really cared deeply about then

1:03:39

when they're no longer there, have you

1:03:41

recreate pinning? When. So much of

1:03:43

it was decided relationship to people who

1:03:45

no longer with us and that kind

1:03:47

of brings us back to some the

1:03:50

references utensils and wishes this notion of

1:03:52

their physically not here with us anymore.

1:03:54

but does that mean that they're actually

1:03:56

be the fastest or latest. Cut.

1:03:58

Ties and assume like they're at. The In

1:04:00

in no way really accessible to us

1:04:02

anymore, and whether you have metaphysical boys

1:04:04

are spiritually set, believe in the afterlife

1:04:07

or not even more broadly your like

1:04:09

are the ways to carry. Carry.

1:04:11

Them with us were. Yes,

1:04:13

We have to tell a different meaning story but they can

1:04:15

still be part of it. I think

1:04:17

it's actually so important in the crease process

1:04:19

to find new ways to continue that relationship

1:04:22

and carried Hamlet. That's a nice. I think

1:04:24

that we make a mistake a lot and

1:04:26

thinking that the relationship is completely unfair. I

1:04:28

think there's a period of time in the

1:04:30

beginning when we have to kind of a

1:04:32

just see the since the call severance of

1:04:34

that relationship. they are no longer physically here.

1:04:36

They're not going to walk through the door

1:04:39

again for not going to be able to

1:04:41

pick up the phone and call them. However,

1:04:43

when we have had somebody in our lives

1:04:45

that we were close to, there's an. Internal

1:04:47

version of them that we keep. It doesn't

1:04:49

have to be spiritual. You don't have to

1:04:51

believe in anything in particular to access that

1:04:53

internal affairs. and than you know, I had

1:04:56

my mom for eighteen years and I was

1:04:58

so close with her even to this day.

1:05:00

It's and twenty seven years since she died.

1:05:02

I can still think of like. What

1:05:04

would my mom think of my outfit today and I know

1:05:06

it's she would say like you're reading too much black. Claire.

1:05:11

And I can hear her voice and I

1:05:13

can see the way she would say it

1:05:15

and that we have access to all the

1:05:17

time you know and we can go to

1:05:19

them and and we can still lean on

1:05:21

them. Ask them things, Listen for the answer.

1:05:24

there's that version. As being able to connect

1:05:26

with them and then there's the making meaning

1:05:28

ways that we can as well. I met

1:05:30

with a rabbi I'm I'm not Jewish but

1:05:32

I met with a rabbi for a year

1:05:34

at one point when I was working on

1:05:36

a book about ten of exploring different versions

1:05:38

of the after life and how that impacts

1:05:40

the grief process and he explained to me

1:05:42

that in judaism there's not a big emphasis

1:05:44

on the afterlife being this place that we

1:05:46

go it's more about what have you left

1:05:48

behind with the legacy is left behind you

1:05:50

know what were the good deeds you did

1:05:52

hear what where this things that you can

1:05:54

pass. On to your children, your grandchildren. You know

1:05:56

what's new in body of the people that you

1:05:59

love to law. How can you

1:06:01

pass on his treats and this has

1:06:03

quality? It's and I think about is

1:06:05

the most beautiful version of the afterlife

1:06:07

I can think. As you know it

1:06:09

stink of my my father's generosity and

1:06:11

his his storytelling ability isn't just bringing.

1:06:13

Those things into the lives of my

1:06:15

children who never met him is his

1:06:17

afterlife. You know how beautiful is that?

1:06:20

They're very much so and of I

1:06:22

know I'm. Yeah, the notion of

1:06:24

and ethical well I know is part of

1:06:26

Do Citizen It I'm I'm guessing the probably

1:06:28

versions of another traditions as well which is

1:06:30

I'd never heard of by a heard some

1:06:33

rubber I'm Steve later also had walked through

1:06:35

this process of list of say So even

1:06:37

if you're not feeling like the end is

1:06:39

near yeah I get a certain point of

1:06:41

view that people it you wanna sound like

1:06:43

here's what I feel about these things that

1:06:45

really matter to me behind a such a

1:06:48

beautiful thing to be thinking about. Yeah, a

1:06:50

different seasons of life as well. that's kind

1:06:52

of what you're describing cat. Says a

1:06:54

good place for us to come full circle north

1:06:56

opposition as well. So in this containers good Life

1:06:58

project if I offer up the phrase to limited

1:07:01

less what comes up. To.

1:07:03

Live it, had life. Means to appreciate that.

1:07:06

At some point it comes to

1:07:08

an end, My father sat on

1:07:10

his deathbed. He said to me.

1:07:12

That. Lies wouldn't be so sweet if

1:07:14

I had no. ending is upon the

1:07:17

last things he said to me and

1:07:19

it has always stayed with me. not

1:07:21

because they with the last thing is

1:07:23

sad partly but also just the realization

1:07:25

that is it just isn't. It never

1:07:27

had an ending. We really I don't

1:07:29

think way to value everything that we

1:07:31

get it to find meaning in. Mean.

1:07:34

Thank you. Thank. You John Adams. A

1:07:38

Before You Leave If you love

1:07:40

this episode, safe bet they'll also

1:07:42

love the conversation we had with

1:07:44

making divine about ceiling. Not okay

1:07:46

after loss if I delete Megan's

1:07:48

episode in the Senate's this episode

1:07:50

of The Life Project was produced

1:07:52

by executive producers Lindsay Fast and

1:07:54

mean Jonathan Fields. editing held by

1:07:56

Alexandre Ramirez, Christopher Carter's trusted our

1:07:58

theme music and special thanks. The

1:08:00

way down for her research on this

1:08:02

episode. And of course if you haven't

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