0:00

The ability to communicate with each other, the ability

0:02

to trust each other and build trust, all

0:04

of us know how to do this. It's

0:07

literally an instinct that we're

0:09

born with because of evolution.

0:11

You know this. You know this on an intuitive

0:14

level. And the more you listen

0:16

to your intuition, the more you let

0:18

go and trust yourself in a

0:20

conversation, the better that conversation is going

0:22

to go and the more you're going to connect. So

0:27

have you ever just marveled at someone

0:29

who can seemingly walk into any room

0:32

and instantly connect with every person there?

0:35

What special gift do they have that

0:37

makes communication seem effortless for them but

0:39

so difficult for others, maybe

0:41

including you? I know that's been me

0:43

struggling at times. My guest today, Charles

0:46

Duhigg, reveals that these super communicators, as

0:48

he describes them, they don't possess any

0:50

magical abilities. In fact, unlocking

0:53

the secret language of connection is a

0:55

learnable skill as Charles lays out in

0:57

his new book Super Communicators How to

0:59

Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Charles

1:02

is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and the

1:04

author of New York Times bestsellers The

1:06

Power of Habit and Smarter, Faster, Better.

1:08

His books have been translated into over

1:11

40 languages and he explains that beneath

1:13

every conversation there are actually three

1:15

different types happening at once, the

1:17

practical, the emotional, and the social.

1:20

And the key is identifying which

1:22

type of conversation is taking place

1:25

and then matching that same wavelength.

1:27

When we get stuck at cross

1:29

purposes, not truly hearing each other,

1:31

it's because we've lost sync. And

1:33

by learning simple but powerful techniques

1:35

to tune into the right frequency,

1:37

we can transform even difficult conversations.

1:39

And Charles really shares how this

1:41

ability to connect authentically, whether one-to-one

1:44

or with thousands, is a skill

1:46

that anyone can cultivate. You can

1:49

become a super communicator

1:51

and that really matters because

1:53

communication impacts literally every aspect

1:55

of our lives. So if

1:57

you're ready to learn the hidden language that builds trust,

2:00

dissolves conflict, and helps you connect

2:02

deeply with others. That's where we're

2:04

headed in today's conversation. So excited

2:06

to share it with you. I'm

2:08

Jonathan Fields, and this is

2:10

Good Life Project. This

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or text goodlife to 500-500. So

5:39

Charles, this is really fun for me in

5:41

no small part because I'm a massive geek

5:44

about the topic that you've just completely been

5:46

going into with super communicators. But

5:48

also because you and I have

5:50

known each other for over a decade now and

5:53

we started Good Life Project in 2012 as a

5:55

film production.

5:57

We were on the kitchen video. The

6:00

very first conversation we ever actually

6:02

recorded was me and you sitting

6:04

in a little conference room in the New York

6:06

Times building in New York City and

6:09

now 11 years later, this will be 12 years, when

6:12

this airs to our community, we're

6:15

back in conversation. And I

6:17

never told you that back then, probably because I

6:19

was terrified. It didn't look like such a newbie.

6:22

This was actually the first time we had

6:24

ever been doing this thing. You're so gracious.

6:26

But you seemed like a pro. You guys

6:28

handled it really, really well. I had no

6:31

idea. I had no idea. But it is

6:33

funny, like ever so often that'll come up

6:35

online, like the clips will pop up and

6:37

it's like, oh my God, I look so

6:39

much younger in that video. I

6:42

remember those days. We

6:44

both actually had like a smattering of

6:46

hair back then. It's a long since

6:49

last phase. Yeah, it happens. It

6:51

does, it does. So really excited

6:53

to dive into this topic because

6:56

it touches on so many different domains

6:58

of life right now. You can look

7:00

at communication and how, there

7:02

seem to be people who move through

7:05

life and really struggle to

7:07

just connect with anyone else. And then there's other

7:09

people who seem to move through life and

7:12

somehow be anointed. They

7:14

can just walk into any room. They can sit down

7:16

across the table from any person. And

7:18

this magical thing unfolds.

7:21

I feel like there's so much mythology around

7:24

this and also misinformation

7:26

and assumptions that aren't true. So

7:29

I love that you sort of like took on this topic

7:31

and said, let's actually deconstruct this a bit

7:33

and look into it. Like these

7:36

people just have something about them. They're able to

7:38

connect with others in a way that is, you

7:41

know, almost God-like. It's

7:43

not necessarily something that you're just born

7:45

with or not. No, not at all.

7:48

And that's a really good way of

7:50

putting it, right? Is that we all

7:52

know those people who are

7:54

on both sides of the spectrum. And we've been ourselves on

7:56

both sides of the spectrum, right? There's times when you like

7:58

walk into a meeting you just know exactly what

8:00

to say or what to say to a friend to make them

8:02

feel better. And other times that you're hanging out with

8:04

someone and you really want to connect with them, and

8:07

you just can't. And what's

8:09

interesting is there is this myth that this

8:11

is an inborn characteristic, that good communicators

8:13

are born knowing how to communicate and

8:16

that bad communicators are socially awkward. And

8:19

that's not right at all. Like what we've

8:21

learned, particularly in the last decade, because we're

8:23

kind of living through this golden age of

8:25

understanding communication because of all these advances

8:27

in science, is the people

8:29

who are good at communication, it is

8:31

a skill that anyone can learn. And

8:34

the reason they're good at communication is

8:36

because they've simply learned how communication

8:38

works. Like they've sat

8:40

down and either through intuition or

8:42

through coaching or through experimentation, they

8:45

figured out that there are these rules,

8:47

right? That help us connect with

8:50

other people. And that if you observe the rules,

8:52

your conversations go really well. And if you

8:55

don't know the rules, you

8:57

get fouled up even though you don't intend to. Yeah,

8:59

I mean that lands so strongly with me.

9:01

And this is also speaking as somebody who

9:04

has made a

9:06

living creating or co-creating conversations with

9:08

people for over a decade now.

9:11

But when I look at my younger life, I

9:13

was not somebody who ever would

9:16

sit down and feel comfortable with a

9:18

complete stranger. Yeah. And

9:20

then just like in minutes going deep

9:22

and having like these incredible conversations about

9:25

topics that really care about, I

9:28

was the opposite on the spectrum. And in

9:30

different situations and circumstances,

9:32

I still am. Totally. So

9:34

what's interesting to me is I think it's also, it's

9:37

context sensitive. Yeah, no, it

9:39

absolutely is. And my guess is if

9:41

you look at people who are great communicators, oftentimes

9:44

there was something in their childhood or

9:46

their youth that made it hard

9:48

for them to connect to other people. And so

9:50

they basically had to learn how to do it.

9:52

They had to work on recognizing skills. And for

9:55

me, this project kind of started With

9:57

a situation that I think I'm assuming is

9:59

probably. familiar to you and everyone is this

10:01

thing which is there would be these times

10:03

I would come home from work and are

10:05

being a bad mood and I would like

10:07

sir complaining to my wife like ah like

10:09

you know my bosses a jerk in my

10:12

coworkers don't understand me and nobody's like giving

10:14

me enough credit and yada yada yada and

10:16

in my wife would say something very very

10:18

rational and reasonable and practical should say like

10:20

look one stick your boss had to lunch

10:22

and you guys couple of it's gets know

10:24

each other a little bit better than us

10:26

and she was very well intentioned in doing

10:28

so right but instead of searing. What she

10:30

was saying. my reaction was to like get

10:32

even angrier and to be like, why aren't

10:35

you supporting me You know why you taking

10:37

their side and were married and we love

10:39

each other. It were usually pretty good communicators

10:42

and I couldn't figure out why this would

10:44

happen again and again. and it wasn't just

10:46

with her. Obviously this happens all the time,

10:48

right? I started calling up neurologists, others and

10:51

sandwich. Would. We know about communication and what they

10:53

said made a lot of sense as soon as I heard

10:55

it with a set of like. Look. Most

10:57

of us when we think about a discussion,

10:59

we think it's like one thing, right? It's

11:01

about one topic and that's not right at

11:04

all. Actually, every conversation is usually

11:06

three different kinds of conversations and they're

11:08

happening in sequence and are mixed together.

11:10

And so there's usually like a practical

11:13

conversation, right? A conversation about like how

11:15

do we solve this problem which is

11:17

what my wife was say. And then

11:19

there's an emotional conversation. The conversation where

11:22

the goals not to solve the problems.

11:24

It's just blurred how each other feals

11:26

express our emotions. That's a conversation I

11:28

was having i was obsessed isn't There's

11:30

also a social conversation which is a

11:33

conversation about your how we relate. To

11:35

other people and how other people see

11:37

us In All three of these conversations

11:39

are equally legitimate conversations. But. The

11:41

thing that happens with known and psychology

11:44

is the matching principle is that. If.

11:46

Two people are having different kinds of

11:49

conversations at the same time. Then.

11:51

they must communicate they fail to hear each

11:53

other is like two ships passing in the

11:55

nights so when i would come in and

11:57

i was having an emotional conversation and my

11:59

wife would respond with a practical conversation and

12:02

all this good advice. The

12:04

reason why I couldn't hear what she

12:06

was saying was because we were literally

12:08

speaking different kinds of languages. We were

12:10

using different parts of our brains. And

12:13

so one of the things that we know is that in

12:15

order to really connect with each other, we

12:17

have to be able to recognize, A, what kind

12:20

of conversation is happening right now, and

12:22

B, we have to learn how to invite each

12:24

other to have the same kind of conversation at

12:26

the same time. Because if

12:28

I say something emotional and my wife

12:30

responds with an emotional conversation, and

12:33

then she says something practical, then I'm ready to

12:35

come back and get into a practical mindset. But

12:37

if we're having these two different conversations at the

12:39

same time, that's when everyone walks

12:41

away frustrated. And that makes so much sense.

12:44

And yet it's one of the things that nobody

12:46

pays attention to, let alone realizes, oh, there

12:48

are three different contexts we could be having

12:50

here. Totally. And if we don't

12:52

meet, there's just nothing good is going to come

12:55

out of this. You tee up a really interesting

12:58

story about a guy

13:00

in CIA, Jim Lawler, and how

13:02

this notion came in when recruiting

13:05

intelligence officers. Yes, absolutely.

13:08

And Jim Lawler is like, so Jim

13:10

Lawler ended up being one of the

13:12

most successful CIA recruiters in history, right?

13:14

He like, he turned, he got

13:17

dozens and dozens of people to

13:19

basically become CIA assets overseas. And

13:21

he was terrible at it when he started.

13:23

Like he was in his 30s, he sent

13:25

to Europe, and he's just, he

13:28

literally like is incompetent at trying

13:30

to have conversations with people. And

13:32

what he discovered was that like, well,

13:34

he actually told me the story that's kind of a great

13:37

story, which is that before he joined the CIA, he'd been

13:39

working for his dad and sales. And he

13:41

was like a terrible salesman. His dad had this, they

13:44

told metal joists and stuff in West Texas.

13:46

He was just a terrible salesman. And so he would, he

13:48

would go to places and then try and make his pitch

13:50

and they, you know, businesses would just brush them off. And

13:53

then he went to this, see this one woman who's a her

13:56

son was in the office with her. And

13:58

she was on the phone when Lawler got there. there and he

14:00

was waiting for her to finish. And then, you know, she finishes

14:03

her phone call and he kind of makes his pitch and she's

14:05

like, look, I'm not interested in buying any of your Joyce. But

14:08

then she just starts talking about her life and she starts talking

14:10

about like how hard it is to be a mom and a

14:12

business woman. And she always feels like she's like letting

14:14

someone down and Lawler is like, you know, at

14:16

this point, like 26, he has

14:18

no idea what to say, right? He's like the

14:20

deer with like deer in the headlights. And he's

14:22

like, uh, okay. Cause

14:25

he doesn't have kids. He doesn't know what to

14:27

do with some, you know, adults suddenly unloading about

14:29

like their life. So he just

14:31

does the same thing. He like starts talking about

14:33

how like he's not getting along with his brother

14:35

cause his brother's a better salesman than he is

14:37

and it's caused all this tension and Lawler feels

14:39

really bad about himself and they just connect because

14:41

they're having the same kind of conversation, right? Inadvertently

14:43

he had matched the kind of conversation that she

14:45

is having. He had matched her

14:47

emotionally. She had shown vulnerability and he

14:49

had reciprocated that vulnerability, which is an

14:51

important part of how conversation works. And,

14:54

and then he like says, like, do you want to buy any

14:57

steel? And she's like, no, I still don't want any steel. But

14:59

two weeks later she calls and she places one of

15:01

the biggest orders in the company's history. And

15:03

Lawler's like, I don't think we can give you the pricing

15:05

that you're looking for. And she was like, that's okay. I

15:08

feel like we have a connection. Like I feel like you and me

15:10

were going to work together for a long time. And

15:12

this is what we know. And that's exactly

15:14

the strategy he used with overseas assets is

15:17

that he learned that if he

15:19

speaks the language they are using, if

15:22

they're talking about how they're concerned

15:24

and they feel uncertain of themselves

15:26

and they feel worried that rather

15:29

than being saying like, it's all going to be okay. I promise

15:31

I can take care of this. I'm going to keep you safe.

15:33

If he turned to them and he say, look, I

15:35

feel the same way that all the time, like I'm worried.

15:37

I'm going to get deported from this country. I'm worried. Someone's

15:39

going to, I'm worried. I'm going to get fired. I'm worried

15:42

that my wife is going to leave me. If

15:44

he's as vulnerable with them as they are with him, then

15:47

they feel like they have a connection. They feel like

15:49

they can trust each other or if they come in

15:51

practical and they say, look, the reason I

15:53

don't want to give you secrets is because you know, you're not

15:55

paying me enough and I'm worried I'm going to get caught and

15:57

he gets practical and he says, look, let me take you through all the

15:59

steps. we're going to take to make sure that you don't get caught. If

16:02

he matches them and invites them to match him,

16:05

that's when we connect. So, let's

16:07

say somebody wants to really better understand

16:10

how to identify which of

16:12

the three types of conversations are happening at any given

16:14

moment. What would be tells

16:16

for somebody to basically be able to pick

16:18

up fairly quickly, oh, this is what's happening

16:20

here, and let me step into

16:22

that same mode and meet them there? It's actually

16:25

pretty easy once you start looking for it. If

16:27

you just listen to what someone's saying and ask

16:29

yourself, are they talking to me about emotional

16:31

things? Are they talking to me about how they feel? Are

16:34

they talking to me about practical problems? Or

16:36

are they talking to me about a social

16:39

issue, like how other people see them or

16:41

how they see themselves because of their background

16:43

and their identity? All

16:46

we really have to do is draw our attention to

16:48

it, and we tend to notice pretty quickly. I'll

16:51

give you an example in our conversation. The

16:53

other thing I'll mention though is that oftentimes you can just

16:55

ask. So, you don't have

16:58

to hide it. You don't have to hide it. You don't

17:00

have to look for a tell. You can say, when I

17:02

come home and I'm upset, my wife now says, do

17:04

you want me just to listen to you and understand how you're

17:06

feeling, or do you want to try and solve this? And

17:09

sometimes that's enough for me to be like,

17:11

actually, I need you to listen until now,

17:14

and now that you've asked that question, I'm ready to start

17:16

solving it. Another

17:19

thing that people use sometimes is, do

17:21

you want to be heard, hugged,

17:23

or helped? They actually

17:25

use this a lot in schools. When a kid is

17:27

upset, the teacher says to them, do

17:29

you want to be heard, hugged, or helped?

17:32

And heard means you're having an emotional

17:35

conversation. You just need me to hear

17:37

what you're saying. Hugged is kind

17:39

of a social thing. You

17:41

need to know that I, another person, care about

17:43

you and that I'm comforting you. And

17:46

helped is a practical conversation. You're asking

17:48

me to help you solve this problem.

17:50

A good example is, I think, in

17:52

our conversation. Let me ask you this.

17:55

You do a ton of conversations like this. When

17:58

you want to help nudge a conversation, into

18:00

an emotional place. What

18:02

do you do in order to signal that

18:04

to the other person? To invite them to

18:07

join you in an emotional conversation. Yeah,

18:09

I mean it's such an interesting question. And

18:11

to me, there's something that happens before

18:14

I would do anything to invite someone

18:16

into it, which is creating safety.

18:19

To me, one of the things that I always

18:21

try and do is create a container of psychological

18:23

safety. In any number of different ways, it's gonna

18:25

be different for different people. But

18:27

then if I want to invite them to

18:29

something which is deeper and more emotional, I

18:32

might share something that's emotional myself to

18:35

telegraph that this is a safe space to share

18:37

on this level and in this context. So

18:40

there's one of the models that I live

18:42

by when certainly deepening into conversations is

18:45

often shorthand the

18:47

fact to get to the feeling. So

18:50

it's not unusual for folks to kind of want to tell their

18:52

story in a very factual way, like this happened, and this happened,

18:54

and this happened, and this happened. Which is,

18:57

there's value in that, right? But what

18:59

I'm always more interested in, I think a lot of what

19:01

you're often interested in is, but what's

19:03

underneath that? So oftentimes,

19:05

this simple question, tell

19:08

me more, it gives somebody the

19:10

opportunity to move beyond the fact and

19:12

opens the door to feeling. What I hear you

19:14

saying, and I think this is what the literature

19:16

says, and I think it's really, really wise, is

19:19

that there's something important about vulnerability.

19:22

That if you say something emotional, you're exposing a

19:24

little bit of vulnerability, it

19:26

invites the other person to reciprocate that

19:29

vulnerability, and in doing so, you

19:31

create this trust, this psychological safety, or

19:33

simply saying to someone, tell me more about

19:35

that, is showing them I'm

19:37

interested in what's going on. And

19:41

in the literature, there's this thing known as

19:43

deep questions, and deep questions are actually really,

19:45

really interesting. There's a guy named Nick Epley,

19:47

who's a psychologist, and one of the things

19:49

I love about Nick is, he

19:51

has studied conversation and questions most of his career,

19:54

and he comes to it pretty honestly when he

19:56

was in high school, he was

19:58

pulled over twice for driving one. intoxicated.

20:01

And he was like, the, you know,

20:03

the quarterback of the football team and

20:05

Mr. Popular on campus. And

20:07

the second time he's pulled over his parents are super

20:09

freaked out. They're like, look, man, there's a problem here.

20:11

And he didn't hear them at all. They were like,

20:13

tell us what's going on. Like, why are you feeling this

20:16

way? Like, why do you feel like you need to

20:18

drink and drive? Why are you being a jackass? And

20:20

he's like, you guys don't understand me. I hate you, etc.

20:24

And so they're like, look, you got to go talk to a

20:26

therapist. So they sent him to this therapist and the therapist, instead

20:28

of lecturing him or

20:31

interrogating him or anything like that just

20:33

says, Look, I just

20:35

want you to tell me, why do you think

20:37

this happened? What were you feeling

20:40

right before you had that drink and gotten to

20:42

that car? Not like I'm going to

20:44

judge you for it. Just literally like I'm just curious what

20:46

you're feeling. And then Nick would answer

20:48

that question. And she would ask another question, a

20:50

follow up and again, again. And eventually

20:53

Nick started listening to himself. And

20:55

he realized what he was saying was, I drink

20:58

because I feel uncomfortable. And then

21:01

once I then I have to get home and I

21:03

don't have another option. And at

21:05

that point, Nick says like, actually, like, now

21:08

I understand why I'm doing this thing. Not because

21:10

the therapist told him what he was doing, not

21:12

even because she led him down like a garden

21:14

path towards it. She just asked

21:17

questions that asked him how he felt. And

21:19

this is what we know about deep questions

21:21

is that deep questions invite us to expose

21:24

vulnerability. Because they ask about

21:26

something about our beliefs or values

21:28

or experiences. And what's

21:30

crazy is they don't have to seem that deep,

21:32

right? Like if you meet someone, and

21:35

you ask them instead of what do you do for a living, you

21:38

say to them, What do you love about your job? That's

21:40

a deep question. You're inviting them to

21:42

tell you something about how they see the world

21:45

and what they enjoy about life and how they

21:47

see meaning in their own work. And

21:49

then when they answer that with a little bit of vulnerability,

21:51

when they say like, what I love about it is it

21:53

lets me help people's lives. And, you know, not all my

21:55

co workers are the best. If you

21:57

reciprocate that vulnerability, and you I totally understand

22:00

what you're saying, and I feel the same

22:02

way because here's what I love about my

22:04

work. You can't help but

22:06

trust each other, right? It's almost impossible

22:08

not to build that psychological safety because

22:10

we've both exposed a little bit of

22:12

who we are to the other person.

22:14

Yeah, I mean, that makes so much

22:16

sense to me. As you're sharing

22:19

that, I'm realizing that oftentimes I'll also

22:21

just ask people a simple

22:23

question, like, well, how does that make

22:26

you feel? It's a great question. And nobody

22:28

asks questions in conversation every day. People

22:31

are like, somebody just shares this thing. And we

22:33

rarely ask that question. And I wonder sometimes if

22:35

we don't ask questions like that of friends, of

22:37

family members, of coworkers, because we're

22:39

afraid of what the answer is gonna be.

22:41

Because if it's not awesome or great, but

22:43

actually, I'm really struggling, we

22:46

feel like a burden upon us to

22:48

then respond to it in a way that was meaningful

22:50

and thoughtful. And we don't know how

22:52

to do that. So we just decide not to

22:55

go there entirely, which keeps a level of separation

22:57

between us. I think that's really smart. I think

22:59

it's a really, really smart insight. And of course,

23:02

that sense of obligation that we feel,

23:04

that worry that something will be, that

23:06

we won't perform, live up to it, that's

23:09

actually totally incorrect, right? Because if we ask

23:11

someone, how do you feel? And they say,

23:13

I'm actually feeling kind of down. All

23:15

we have to do is say, tell me more about

23:18

why you're feeling down. And we

23:20

have fulfilled their need. They're signaling to us

23:22

like they actually want to talk about what's

23:24

on their mind. And that doesn't

23:26

mean we have to solve the problem for them.

23:28

In fact, we shouldn't solve the problem for them.

23:30

That's a different conversation. That's a different conversation, right?

23:33

And sometimes our instinct when somebody says, I'm feeling

23:35

really down is to try and pick them up,

23:37

right? To try and give them all these reasons

23:39

why they shouldn't feel down. You're so great. But

23:42

that's not what they're asking for. That's

23:44

a practical conversation. That's us trying to

23:47

solve the situation. What they're saying

23:49

to us is, I feel down and

23:51

I want someone to hear why. And

23:54

sometimes just by explaining it to you, I'll figure

23:56

out more about myself in doing so. And

23:58

The more that we seek to... Match them

24:00

where they are and then invite them to

24:02

match ups like something like one of the

24:04

best things that I think you can say

24:06

to someone after you've asked i'm like, why

24:08

do you feel that way to me More

24:10

about it is if he said i'm like,

24:12

can I tell you how I've handled the

24:14

situation in the past asked for permission to

24:16

change the conversation to a practical conversation. Often.

24:19

Times people are like. Hell. Yeah, thank

24:21

you for inviting me to change the

24:23

conversation from this would be a pity

24:25

party for myself into something else. But.

24:28

The point is that we have to invite them.

24:30

We have to open the door to bat. Not

24:32

for Saddam. Yeah. And.

24:35

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I use the promo code G-O-O-D-L-I-F-E.

29:30

In this same vein, you make a

29:32

really interesting point in the book, which

29:34

is that we're often

29:36

taught that perspective taking is

29:39

the most effective way to actually build

29:41

this bridge. Yeah. And it can

29:43

be, but it's not always the

29:46

best way. And sometimes there are different ways

29:48

in. I mean, I remember talking to somebody

29:50

recently about empathy and conversations and who was

29:54

sharing. We feel this human compulsion to

29:56

say, when somebody shares something, we want

29:58

to then reciprocate on on a similar

30:00

level and that can be a

30:03

mechanism to build this mutual progressive

30:05

vulnerability. But sometimes it turns

30:07

into something different which is a little

30:09

bit of like a competitive sharing

30:12

type of thing. And that

30:15

they're simply being able to

30:17

respond differently. Like that's not the only path.

30:19

That's exactly right. To deepen the connection and

30:21

let somebody feel seen, heard and held. That's

30:23

exactly right. So and I think this is

30:26

a really good point. So reciprocity is

30:28

a really important part of conversations,

30:30

right? Like giving back and forth. But

30:33

there's a difference between reciprocity and stealing

30:35

the spotlight for yourself. So we've all

30:38

been in this situation, right? Somebody, we

30:41

come to someone and we say like, I'm kind

30:43

of bummed, I'm feeling down because my aunt is

30:45

sick. And they say, oh man, yeah, my

30:47

dad was sick last year and this is how I

30:49

felt about it. And it's kind of like, okay,

30:52

I mean, we have this experience in

30:54

common, but I'm talking about myself here.

30:56

Or even worse, they're like, oh man, my

30:59

dog was sick last week. And you're

31:01

like, am I being sick and your dog being sick? It doesn't

31:03

seem like the same to me. So the

31:05

question is, how do we show what's known

31:07

as conversational receptiveness, this reciprocity in

31:10

a situation like that? What

31:12

reciprocity means is not matching

31:15

woe to woe. What it

31:17

means is showing the other person that you have

31:19

heard them. So sometimes if someone

31:21

says, I'm feeling really down because my aunt

31:23

is sick, all that they really

31:25

need to hear is us saying,

31:28

it seems like this is really bothering you and

31:30

I'm sorry that it's bothering you. Tell

31:32

me more about it, right? We've reciprocated,

31:35

they've showed us that they're upset and

31:37

we've reciprocated that by saying, I recognize

31:39

that you're upset and it's valid

31:41

that you're upset. It's totally valid that you're

31:44

upset. Not because I have an aunt

31:46

that got sick myself, but because I hear

31:48

you in pain and I just want you to know

31:50

that I see that and tell

31:52

me more about it, that is reciprocity. And

31:54

it's a form of reciprocity that doesn't steal

31:56

the spotlight. And as that conversation gets

31:58

deeper, you might very well. I will say like, what

32:00

I hear you saying is that you're feeling really

32:02

down about this and I understand that because I

32:04

had a parent or I had a family member

32:07

who got sick a year ago. But

32:09

instead of trying to force my story on

32:11

them, simply by showing them that

32:13

I hear what they're saying, that's

32:16

what reciprocity is. Yeah,

32:18

which can be so powerful. I've had

32:20

friends who have been in deep grief

32:22

for friends who are dealing with who

32:24

have cancer and they're

32:26

not looking for reciprocity and

32:28

they're not looking for the practical conversation

32:31

either. All they want to do is

32:33

not be ignored because so

32:36

many people don't know how to

32:38

respond in those situations so they just back away.

32:41

And literally asked a friend

32:43

of mine once, what should I say to you or

32:45

to anyone else that's like in this ethnicity? She's

32:48

like, honestly, just anything like that

32:50

must be so hard. That's it.

32:53

You know, my dad died about five years

32:55

ago and the interesting thing for anyone who's

32:57

had a parent pass away is it's obviously

32:59

sad and it's hard and it brings up

33:01

all these emotions. It's

33:04

also really interesting. It's oftentimes

33:06

like the most interesting thing that has

33:08

happened that month because it

33:10

does bring up all these new emotions and these

33:12

new experiences. And I would come back and people

33:14

would ask me, hey, where were you

33:16

last week? And I'd say, my father passed away and I was

33:18

at the funeral and nobody ever asked

33:20

me anything about the funeral. They never

33:23

asked me anything about my dad. And I was

33:25

like, if somebody had said, what was your dad

33:27

like? I would have loved to

33:29

have told them about that, right? Like I would

33:31

have loved to have told them about this thing

33:33

I just experienced that was so like meaningful and

33:35

profound. And that doesn't mean that

33:37

they have to say, you know, my dad died

33:40

too. So I understand what that's like, but

33:42

simply showing curiosity in someone else's

33:45

experiences. That's the

33:47

thing that helps us connect. And it's

33:49

interesting. I'll mention, and this is on a completely

33:51

different tone in the book. There's this,

33:54

this story about the big bang theory that

33:56

this TV show that like the biggest sitcom,

33:58

one of the things that the writers of the book, show found,

34:00

which is why it succeeded so well, is they

34:03

found that when they have

34:05

characters obviously try to connect

34:07

with each other, then it

34:09

almost doesn't matter what the

34:11

character is saying, the audience likes

34:14

them. So there's something about

34:16

our psychology, and this is a product of

34:18

evolution, that when someone shows that

34:20

they want to connect with us, we

34:23

tend to see that as a

34:25

very trusting gesture.

34:28

And laughter is a great example of this. There's

34:30

been all these studies that have looked at when people

34:32

laugh, and you would think that people laugh in response

34:34

to something that's funny, and that's not true. That's not

34:36

true for like 20% of the time. When

34:39

people laugh, it's usually because they're showing someone

34:42

that they want to connect with them. And

34:44

then the other person will laugh back to

34:47

show that that desire for connection

34:50

has been acknowledged. It's

34:52

like an evolutionary trait that's developed within

34:54

our brains. And in fact, NASA uses

34:56

this to try and figure out who will be

34:58

good astronauts. They pay attention

35:00

to how astronaut applicants laugh when

35:02

they're in interviews, because

35:04

they found that the people who laugh

35:07

genuinely match the laughter of the

35:09

interviewer, those people are signaling that

35:11

they want to connect. And

35:13

it's the signaling that we want to connect

35:16

that matters as much as

35:18

the connection itself. We tend to

35:20

think that the other person is trustworthy because they're showing

35:22

us they want to connect with us. That

35:25

research around laughter is so fascinating. I

35:27

remember years ago reading research that

35:30

said we rarely laugh in solitude.

35:32

Totally. And so this syncs completely

35:34

with that because it's not just

35:36

like, we can think something's really

35:38

funny and maybe a little chuckle, but it's a

35:41

social signal. It's an absolutely social signal. And that's

35:43

a huge part of laughter, which we don't really

35:45

think about. We're just like, if something's funny, we

35:47

laugh. That's just the way it is. But

35:49

no, actually, sitting on a couch alone and watching

35:51

something. You're probably not going to laugh, even if

35:53

you think it's funny. But if somebody, your bestie

35:55

is next to you, you guys may be cracking

35:57

up next to each other. Or just notice. next

36:00

time you're talking to a friend and

36:02

they laugh, ask yourself, did you just say something

36:04

funny? Probably the answer is no,

36:06

right? You didn't say anything that funny. And so

36:08

one of the interesting questions is how do we

36:11

operationalize this? Like how do we make this something

36:13

that like, and one of my favorite

36:15

examples about how to do this is

36:18

around listening and particularly this concept known

36:20

as looping for understanding.

36:23

So most of the time when people are listening, the

36:26

way that they try and show that they're listening is

36:28

that they do things like they nod while someone is

36:30

speaking or they like make eye

36:32

contact. The problem is when we're talking,

36:35

we're so focused on our own words that we tend

36:37

not to notice what other people are doing. So

36:40

when we talk about active listening, about proving

36:42

that we're listening to someone, very often

36:45

what matters is what we do after

36:47

they stop speaking. And in

36:49

particular, there's this technique known as

36:51

looping for understanding, which is, it

36:54

just has three steps. It's like the simplest thing on earth. Ask

36:57

someone a question, tell them

36:59

what you just heard them say, and

37:01

then ask them if you got it right. So

37:04

like somebody says, I think

37:06

that none of us should vote in

37:08

the presidential election. Say like, why do you

37:10

think that way? And then repeat back

37:12

to them in your own words, what

37:15

they just said, and then say like, am I

37:17

understanding you correctly? Did I get that right? That's

37:19

how we operationalize this reciprocity,

37:22

this listening receptiveness. And

37:25

it's very, very simple. It's stuff that we learned to do

37:27

like when our parents told us to do when we were

37:29

like five years old. And it turns

37:31

out if you do this in a

37:34

conversation, it transforms hard conversations. It's

37:36

basically impossible to have conflict when people

37:38

are looping for understanding. Because what we're

37:40

doing is we're proving to the other

37:42

person, we want to hear them. So

37:45

what I'm hearing you say that is. Exactly,

37:48

you're doing it really well. You

37:50

see, it makes so much sense. It's funny

37:53

because I have been in some way trained

37:55

in that methodology in different contexts. Years

37:57

ago when I was a kid, I'd spend

37:59

a year. hot minute as an outside salesperson.

38:03

And that was, you know, they sent all the

38:05

new like people to this place and you know,

38:07

outside of DC and for a week at sales

38:09

training, and they were teaching you all these quote

38:11

techniques. And we were like cold

38:13

sales, we'd literally knock on doors of offices, walk in

38:15

and say like, I'm here to talk to the CEO.

38:18

Paraphying and that's horrible. I remember one of

38:20

the things they said to do was exactly

38:22

this. They're like, basically ask a question and

38:24

then reflect back, you know, like what I

38:26

hear you say is this, did I get

38:29

it right? And keep going, because

38:31

the person is probably gonna say, look, well, kind of

38:33

mostly, but there's this one other thing that actually it's

38:35

not quite right. And then they're gonna share it and

38:37

then you say, oh, okay,

38:39

so then what I'm hearing you say, like

38:41

you keep it going around until that person

38:43

is nodding like, yes. And

38:46

I've also heard a variation

38:48

of this offered by therapists, especially

38:51

dealing with family and relationships, where

38:54

people are just really talking through

38:56

each other. And this is like

38:59

this really core therapeutic modality to

39:02

get people to start to legit, especially

39:04

when there's some sort of resentment or anger

39:06

built up, absolutely relationship to break through it.

39:08

Because once the resentment, the anger is there,

39:11

you really no longer hear or see each

39:13

other. Now you hear or see the representation

39:15

of what you feel has been built over

39:17

sometimes years or decades. That's exactly right. And

39:20

it breaks through the fiction

39:22

of what you think is going on to get

39:24

to the truth, what's going on. And this brings

39:26

up a really interesting thing, which is, how

39:29

does communication work within our brains? So there's

39:31

been these experiments again, in the last decade,

39:33

that have shown that when you and I connect

39:35

in a conversation, as we are now, if we

39:38

had the ability to measure all these things, what we would see

39:40

is that our eyes are starting

39:42

to dilate at the same rate, our

39:45

breath is starting to match each other, even though we're not

39:47

aware of it, even though we're not in the same room,

39:50

our heart rates are starting to match. If

39:52

we could measure it, the electrical impulses on our

39:54

skin are similar. And most importantly, and the reason

39:56

why this is happening is because if we get

39:58

see inside both of our brains, what we

40:00

would say is our brains beginning to

40:02

synchronize. That's what communication

40:05

is. Communication is me

40:07

having a thought, saying it,

40:09

and you basically experiencing the same

40:11

thought, understanding it. And this is

40:13

known as neural entrainment in

40:16

the psychological and neurological literature.

40:19

And so the point that you just made, when

40:21

we're having a conversation in conflict, we're

40:24

not entrained, right? Because instead

40:27

of hearing what you're saying, what

40:29

I'm doing is I have a story inside

40:31

my head. I have a series of thoughts

40:33

or brainwaves within my head. And

40:35

I'm investing in those ones instead of listening to

40:37

what you're trying to tell me. And you're doing

40:39

the same thing. And so the question

40:41

is, how do we break through? If communication is

40:43

about us becoming entrained, about having the same thought

40:46

at the same time, really

40:48

clicking, right? That's why we call it clicking.

40:50

How do we do that? The number one

40:53

step is to disrupt that story that's inside our

40:55

head. Like to put us in a

40:57

place where I can actually listen to you. And

40:59

if I say to myself, instead of like my

41:02

job being to respond to the attacks you're

41:04

making, or my job being to defend myself,

41:07

if my job is to just listen as closely

41:09

as I can and try and repeat

41:11

back in my own words, what you just said, I'm

41:14

gonna entrain with you. And more

41:16

importantly, I'm going to invite you to entrain with

41:18

me. Because if you feel like

41:20

you're being listened to, almost

41:23

automatically, we start listening

41:25

more closely back. Again,

41:27

this is reciprocity. When someone listens closely to

41:29

us, when it's clear they're making an effort,

41:32

we feel an obligation to listen closely to them.

41:34

And then we become entrained. And even if

41:36

we don't agree with each other, at least

41:38

we understand what the other person is trying

41:40

to say. Yeah, and I just

41:43

think that's so important. It's funny, like

41:45

this is elements. I've used this phrase,

41:47

exquisite attention for years now, talking about

41:49

relief. Almost like the spell that

41:51

can be cast between two people when they

41:53

are in sync on a level where it

41:55

feels like the world outside of that interaction

41:57

falls away. So you're describing.

41:59

and sort of like this is the physiology

42:02

of some of what's actually happening inside

42:04

of that state, like inside the

42:06

spell, and why it's

42:09

so powerful. Because I

42:11

would imagine, even if we're not

42:14

sitting across from somebody and like measuring, you

42:16

know, like their brain waves and their, all

42:18

these things, but there's gotta be

42:21

something about our sensory system beyond

42:23

the words that are being said that picks

42:25

it up. Absolutely. And that knows that this

42:27

is unusual in a really powerful and beautiful

42:29

way. And if you think about it, that's

42:31

evolved within our brains, right? We basically have

42:33

this ability to pick up on that stuff

42:36

that I just mentioned without even realizing it,

42:38

because that is the thing

42:40

that makes a species survive.

42:43

Like the ability to communicate with

42:45

each other, the ability to trust each other and

42:47

build trust. Without that, you can't

42:49

build families and societies

42:51

and cultures. They help people

42:53

do better. So the people who are good at

42:55

this stuff, they end up surviving and others don't,

42:59

but here's the important part of it, is that

43:01

all of us have this capacity. It can feel

43:03

very overwhelming for us to tell you like, you

43:06

know, there's three kinds of conversations and you should match

43:08

each other and you should ask deep questions. It almost

43:10

seems like too many instructions, right? It's too much to

43:12

remember. But the important thing

43:14

to know about this is, all

43:16

of us know how to do this. It's

43:18

literally an instinct that we're

43:20

born with because of evolution.

43:23

And so the goal of this book,

43:25

Supercommunicators, and the science in many

43:27

ways, is just to remind people

43:29

of what they can do. Because

43:32

sometimes we can get so deep inside our own

43:34

heads that we stop paying attention. We stop paying

43:36

attention to other people. We stop remembering to listen

43:38

and to show that we're listening. And

43:40

part of the goal of Supercommunicators is just to

43:42

say, look, let me just remind

43:45

you of how communication works because you

43:47

know this. You know this on an intuitive level.

43:50

And the more you listen to your intuition, the

43:52

more you let go and

43:54

trust yourself in a conversation, the

43:58

more that conversation is gonna, the more

44:00

you're gonna connect. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

44:02

What's your take on

44:04

how technology plays into all

44:06

this? Because on the one hand, we're having this conversation.

44:08

You know, we're like, we are not in the same

44:10

place. You can see each other.

44:13

We can see our body. I can hear your

44:15

breathing. I can see your facial expressions. But we're

44:17

not physically present in the same room, which

44:20

we used to do for six years in the

44:22

earlier part of the podcast. And that all got

44:24

blown up. And overnight, we

44:27

had to say – and part of our ethos was we – we

44:30

only recorded in person in our own studio in

44:32

New York City. Because I

44:34

didn't feel like I could get the depth

44:36

and level of connection in

44:38

a virtual or a remote environment. 2020

44:41

hits, we basically have to make

44:43

a decision. We're either shutting down or we're

44:45

tap dancing and saying, let's try this whole

44:47

new world and see if we can recreate

44:51

that same sense of safety and intimacy and

44:53

nuance that would like conversations to

44:55

be real and deep and rich. And

44:58

I realized I was wrong. I realized

45:00

that we can and that

45:02

on the one hand – and that the technology

45:05

allowed me to do something that I never thought

45:07

was possible. So that's on the

45:09

give side, yay. But on

45:11

the take side, so much of the

45:13

technology now makes us no longer present

45:15

in interactions that we're having. Absolutely. And

45:18

like no matter how much you know

45:20

who I want to do these things

45:22

in engagement, when we've got

45:24

something that is every nine seconds there's

45:26

a vibration going off in our front

45:28

right pocket, it's got to be

45:30

brutalizing even if you really want to connect with

45:32

other people in some way. Yeah, it's a really

45:34

great point. And it's really interesting to hear that

45:36

you guys had this – can

45:38

I ask you one thing, that realization that you

45:40

can get as deep and as meaningful virtually as

45:43

you could in person, was that

45:45

right away or was that something

45:47

that kind of gradually you learned?

45:50

We learned gradually, but also I

45:52

think there was something that happened

45:54

that, but for the pandemic, I

45:56

think we still would have gotten there, but maybe it would

45:58

have taken another five, ten years. which is that everybody,

46:01

the entire world was forced

46:04

to get comfortable in the virtual

46:06

space in a

46:09

matter of weeks rather than in a matter of

46:11

years because you're very existent,

46:13

so often your livelihood depended on it. So

46:15

everyone was weird and fumbling and awkward in

46:17

the beginning. The platforms actually got a lot

46:20

better really fast. So it was

46:22

all of a sudden people were like, oh, I actually,

46:24

I can do this. The technology isn't a

46:26

barrier. Everybody knows how to use this. And

46:29

like, I kind of know the

46:31

sound has to be okay. And like, I have to be in

46:33

a well-lit room. And what I

46:35

didn't see coming was the

46:38

potential for the intimacy

46:40

and safety of a person's personal

46:42

space. Their home often would transfer

46:45

into the virtual space and lend

46:47

that sense of safety and intimacy

46:49

to create a tether that

46:52

often crossed continents. That

46:54

blew me away because I never saw that coming.

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50:26

There's a story in the book about these

50:29

two conversations. There's this group that wanted to try

50:31

and figure out how to help people

50:33

have conversations around conflict. And for the conflict, the

50:35

conflict that they chose just kind of by chance

50:38

was the guns debate. So they invited all these

50:40

people who are pro-gun and all

50:42

these people who are anti-gun to Washington

50:44

DC. And they sort of at

50:47

the Newseum, they met for three days and they

50:49

trained them in communication methods. And

50:51

even though these people basically were like enemies

50:53

when they walked in, everyone walked away

50:55

saying like, this was so meaningful. I learned so

50:57

much about the other side. This was so great.

51:01

And then to keep the conversation going,

51:03

they move it online, that a private

51:05

Facebook page. And like literally

51:07

within 45 minutes, well, all these

51:09

people who like walked away being like, you

51:11

know, this is great. I love you. This

51:13

is fantastic. Within 45 minutes, once they were

51:15

online, they were calling each other like jack-booted

51:17

Nazi thugs, right? And like, you know, trying

51:20

to own the libs. And so

51:22

there was this interesting question like, what happened?

51:24

Why did this work so well in

51:27

person? And then it fell apart once it went online. And

51:29

what the researchers figured out was that we

51:32

have been talking to each other for

51:34

roughly about two millennia, right? So

51:36

we have worked out a whole series

51:39

of cues and

51:41

signals and ways

51:43

of transmitting communication that are so subtle

51:45

that we can't even notice them at

51:47

this point that have to do with

51:50

verbal communication or in personal communication.

51:52

But you know, a phone

51:54

conversation is really rich, right? You can still

51:56

get, you can get deep with someone on

51:58

the phone. On the other hand, Again, we have only

52:00

been talking online since 1983. And

52:03

so as a result, there's a bunch of

52:05

little things that are still getting worked out

52:07

about how to do this online. And

52:10

as they're getting worked out, the problem is it's

52:12

fine to work them out. But the

52:14

problem is that when we don't say, oh

52:17

look, we're at the beginning of this,

52:20

there's gonna be mistakes. I need

52:22

to over explain to someone what

52:24

I'm thinking or feeling, what I'm typing as

52:26

opposed to what I'm talking. When we

52:28

don't realize that we need to overemphasize, that's

52:31

when something bad happens. So one of the

52:33

interesting things I heard you say is

52:35

that it's not like they flipped a

52:37

switch and suddenly you went from in-person

52:39

to virtual and you discovered,

52:41

oh, virtual's as good as in-person. It

52:44

was a process, right? You learned

52:47

how to communicate with people in a

52:50

virtual manner that's a little bit different

52:52

from in-person. And all of us

52:54

were learning because we were having these Zoom meetings and

52:56

the platforms were learning how to make this even easier

52:58

for us. And as we learn

53:00

that, we get better and better

53:02

at it. But that doesn't mean we are

53:04

an expert on day one. And

53:07

so the same way that, for instance, if I'm talking

53:09

to someone in a foreign language that

53:11

I'm not very fluent in, I'm gonna

53:13

over explain what I'm trying to tell them because

53:16

I just assume that they're gonna misunderstand some

53:18

of what I'm saying because I'm not good

53:20

at speaking this language. When

53:23

we're online, we should kind of make the same assumption.

53:25

That's why, for instance, when you say

53:27

something ironic, if I was to

53:29

say something too ironic right now, you

53:32

would know from the tone of my voice that

53:34

I'm being ironic. And when I type

53:36

something ironic, I hear that tone of the voice inside my

53:38

own head. But you as the reader, you

53:41

don't hear it. You think I'm just being

53:43

mean or saying something weird. And

53:45

so it's just part of this is just giving

53:47

us ourselves permission when we're online

53:49

to be a little bit more careful, to

53:52

overemphasize a little bit more what we're actually trying

53:54

to say with the full

53:56

acknowledgement that like, it's just because we're learning a brand

53:58

new language and it takes a lot of... while to

54:00

do that. Yeah, I mean, that

54:02

makes so much sense to me. I also

54:04

wonder that what you just described, that experiment,

54:07

the other element there in my eyes

54:09

would be the difference between a

54:12

conversation that is private and

54:15

the conversation that is going to be

54:17

observed. Absolutely. And when you know that

54:19

the conversation is going to be observed

54:21

by potentially a group of

54:24

people within whom you want to have

54:26

a sense of belonging, sometimes

54:28

it is your primary group of people

54:30

and a whole bunch of things

54:32

may depend on you being a

54:34

member in good standing of that community,

54:37

that you are not just having that

54:39

conversation with the one other person online now.

54:42

You are having a conversation with everybody else

54:45

who you believe to be watching that conversation.

54:47

So you are social signaling to

54:49

everyone else and that may

54:51

profoundly change what you are

54:53

going to say. It may even make you

54:55

say things that you feel really bad about saying,

54:58

but the desire to not be ostracized

55:00

from the group overwhelms that. Absolutely.

55:02

And this is the social conversation. And the

55:04

interesting thing about the social conversation is that

55:07

it can happen when people are watching us. It

55:10

can also happen when it is just one on

55:12

one, but we are thinking of those other

55:14

people inside our head. Right? Like

55:17

if I say something that I know would upset

55:19

my mom or upset my grandmother, there is something

55:21

inside my head that says like, even

55:23

though my mom and my grandmother never hurt, didn't hear me

55:25

say this and they never will, I kind

55:28

of feel bad about saying it because I know that

55:30

it would bug them. Right? And

55:32

the social conversation is really, really important because

55:34

sometimes our instinct is just to pretend it

55:36

doesn't exist. Right? If we

55:38

are talking to someone who comes from a different social

55:40

background from us, a different race,

55:42

a different ethnicity, a different gender,

55:45

a different socioeconomic

55:48

background, sometimes our instinct

55:50

is to pretend that those differences don't exist

55:52

because they can feel uncomfortable. But

55:54

what we know is that when we are in a social conversation, when

55:56

we are talking to them about society around the world, we are not

55:58

going to be able to do that. We're talking to them

56:00

about other people, even if we're just gossiping about

56:03

the office place, which is

56:05

a social conversation. That oftentimes

56:07

by acknowledging those differences, we

56:10

actually connect better. So for

56:12

instance, I know that you

56:14

live in Boulder right now and that you

56:16

have one kid who's older, my kids are

56:18

younger. I think that there's a

56:20

difference there that's interesting and by acknowledging it,

56:22

by saying you have some wisdom that comes

56:24

from raising a child that I

56:26

don't have yet. That's highly debatable, by

56:29

the way. It's highly debatable, it's highly debatable. And I

56:31

have some instincts that come from being in

56:33

the middle of it that you maybe have

56:35

forgotten. Like when we pose it

56:38

that way, it's not offensive to point out

56:40

these differences. It's actually recognizing

56:42

and acknowledging that we have something unique

56:44

to say. And the same thing

56:46

is true when it's a racial difference, right? When

56:49

someone who's white and someone who's black is talking to

56:51

each other, and this is something that happened in the

56:53

book that we talk about at Netflix, there was this

56:56

incident inside Netflix that kind of tore the company apart.

56:58

And they were trying to figure out how to have

57:00

conversations to come back from it. And it was around

57:02

race. It was a white executive

57:04

used the N word. And

57:06

it just became this thing that was eating

57:09

the company up and destroying it. That

57:12

the answer was to say like, you

57:14

as a black employee at Netflix,

57:17

you have a set of experiences that

57:19

are different from mine as a white employee. And

57:22

hearing those, recognizing those, validating

57:25

that those experiences are real, that's

57:27

really, really important because I want to learn

57:29

from them. And similarly, as a white employee,

57:32

I have a set of experiences that

57:34

are different from yours and validating

57:36

and recognizing that those

57:39

exist. That lets us understand

57:41

each other better. That helps us in

57:43

train. And so ignoring those

57:45

differences, which feels sometimes like the easiest

57:47

thing to do, oftentimes is

57:50

not what lets us connect. Rather

57:52

acknowledging the differences, validating

57:55

the importance of those differences, recognizing

57:58

the virtue. of those differences, how

58:00

they give us perspectives

58:02

that are really interesting and wonderful

58:05

and worth sharing. That's the

58:07

thing that makes us feel like we can all

58:09

come to work or to home or to a

58:11

conversation and be our full self. To

58:13

not just push that

58:15

aside and say, like, can we

58:17

actually just center this, have a conversation about

58:20

it with curiosity? I'm not saying

58:22

what we're going to resolve this or

58:24

so that one side is right or one side is

58:26

wrong, but can we actually just get curious about

58:29

our differences? And the point

58:31

is not to resolve it, right? Like, resolving it is

58:33

a practical conversation. And maybe there is a time then,

58:35

like, if there's something going on that we have to

58:37

be practical about, we can have that conversation. But

58:40

rather than saying, like, the goal is to resolve this is just

58:42

to say, I want to hear what

58:44

your experiences are like. I want to

58:46

show you that I'm hearing what you're telling me. If

58:49

it's okay, I'd like to share what my experiences are like.

58:52

That's how we get beyond those stories inside our heads

58:54

that prevent us from hearing each other. One of

58:57

the things I'm curious about, we've kind of woven

58:59

the notion of safety in and out of this

59:01

conversation today, and you write about this, you know,

59:03

how do we make hard conversations safer? We were

59:05

just talking about that a bit also. And

59:08

we talked about the difficulty of sometimes

59:10

doing that when the conversation is happening

59:12

at scale or in an observable way.

59:14

Do you feel like there is a

59:16

way to have a conversation at scale

59:20

that in some way, shape or

59:22

form can bring enough safety into

59:25

it so that the conversation can

59:27

be what everybody wants

59:29

it to be? That's really interesting. That's a really

59:31

good question. And when you say it's scale, what

59:33

do you mean? Like, what are you thinking of?

59:35

Within a company or even like a one to

59:38

many type of scenario, you and I are just

59:40

having a conversation to people talking to each other.

59:42

You and I also both speak from stages. It's

59:45

one person speaking and there are sometimes

59:47

thousands of people in the audience. And

59:50

sometimes you have that feeling where

59:53

you feel like as the speaker,

59:55

you're on stage, but you feel

59:57

deeply connected to everybody in that

59:59

sometimes. theater and then people will

1:00:01

walk out who are in like the third balcony

1:00:03

in the last row and feel

1:00:05

like you were just speaking to them. Yeah.

1:00:09

And that to me has always felt like a

1:00:11

bit of a superpower to be able to do

1:00:13

that. And I've often wondered like what

1:00:16

lets that happen? So I

1:00:18

think part of a big reason and there's a lot

1:00:20

of research that has looked at that. And

1:00:23

the most consistent finding is that

1:00:25

two things are happening that that

1:00:27

speaker is doing that the audience

1:00:29

is giving the speaker

1:00:32

permission to do. The first

1:00:34

is that they are the

1:00:36

speaker is inviting the person to connect with

1:00:38

them. And the way that they do that is

1:00:41

by exposing a vulnerability. When

1:00:43

I say exposing a vulnerability, most people think of that as like

1:00:45

getting up and being like, my father

1:00:47

beat me when I was a child. That's not,

1:00:49

you don't have to do that to expose a vulnerability. Sometimes

1:00:52

exposing a vulnerability is getting up and just saying

1:00:54

like, Hey, it is so great to be here.

1:00:56

Thank you so much. I've been looking forward to

1:00:58

this for a long time. When I

1:01:00

say that I'm signaling to the audience, like

1:01:03

I really want to entertain you. I really

1:01:05

want, I really want you to enjoy this.

1:01:07

I hope that you enjoy this. And

1:01:10

that is a vulnerability because it puts

1:01:12

the power in the audience's hands to

1:01:15

decide whether they think I'm doing a

1:01:17

good job or not. And when

1:01:19

I do that, I'm inviting them to

1:01:22

connect with me. I'm inviting them to

1:01:24

remember those times that they have given

1:01:26

a speech and that they really

1:01:28

wanted it to go well and that they tried

1:01:30

hard. It's also why when I think I'm

1:01:33

giving a speech and I assume this is true for you and

1:01:35

for a number of people, the thing that makes it successful, like

1:01:37

what you didn't say is you didn't say, I was

1:01:40

so polished. I hit my

1:01:42

lines so well. The timing was exactly right.

1:01:44

That's why people connected with me. It's

1:01:46

not about being polished. Yeah. I've never

1:01:48

had that experience by the way. It's

1:01:51

about being genuine, right? It's about being

1:01:54

real on that stage. It's

1:01:56

about exposing something about yourself. we

1:02:00

know is that when it

1:02:02

comes to conversations, particularly the emotional conversations,

1:02:04

but all of them, vulnerability

1:02:07

is the most powerful tool that we have. And

1:02:10

vulnerability does not mean that I need to tell you

1:02:12

a sob story. Vulnerability does not mean

1:02:15

that I need to ask you about

1:02:18

all the trauma you've experienced. Sometimes

1:02:21

vulnerability is just laughing. That

1:02:23

when someone says something that isn't that funny, laughing to

1:02:25

show them that you want to connect with them. Because

1:02:28

you're making an invitation, like I want to be

1:02:30

your friend. And they get to

1:02:32

choose whether they're gonna laugh back and join you in

1:02:34

that laughter, or whether they're gonna brush you off. And

1:02:37

it's the act of exposing yourself a little bit.

1:02:39

Talking about what you believe, or what you feel, or

1:02:42

an experience you had. Asking someone

1:02:44

about their beliefs, or their values, or

1:02:46

their experiences. That's what creates

1:02:48

that real sense of connection and safety. And

1:02:51

it can be one on one, or it can be one

1:02:53

to thousands. Does that correspond to

1:02:55

your experiences? Does that seem right? It definitely does,

1:02:57

because I think I spent probably

1:03:00

the better part of the first part of my speaking

1:03:02

career, for lack of a better word. Trying

1:03:05

to be, literally, having every

1:03:07

step, every word, everything, every

1:03:09

story dialed in. And

1:03:11

do you feel competent doing that?

1:03:13

Sure. Do you feel like

1:03:16

you're in service of an audience genuinely, and connecting

1:03:18

them, and giving them what they showed

1:03:20

up for? Not often.

1:03:22

And it's only when, literally,

1:03:25

I remember being in the middle of a

1:03:27

keynote, going blank. Which is, every

1:03:29

speaker does it at some point. You completely

1:03:31

forget, I often don't use slides. So there's

1:03:33

nothing to prompt me what's coming next. And

1:03:36

I'm standing on the stage, starting to hyperventilate.

1:03:38

I feel like there's sweat just exploding out

1:03:41

of my body. And I

1:03:43

literally, I look at somebody in the

1:03:45

front row, and I smile,

1:03:47

and I'm just like, I just

1:03:49

completely spaced out where was I. And

1:03:51

she shouted out a word, which

1:03:54

brought me back. I giggle

1:03:56

if I kind of laughed at myself. And

1:03:59

the audience just went along for right. because all of a sudden

1:04:01

they're like, wait, he's not a robot. Yeah. You

1:04:03

know, like he's one of us. And then at that point,

1:04:06

it almost felt like they wanted to see

1:04:08

me win and recover. Yeah. And

1:04:10

then like that was a moment where I was like, what

1:04:12

just happened there? Because, and can

1:04:15

I do more of that? Not blank go

1:04:17

blank, but can I just like show up

1:04:19

as me? And again, there's

1:04:21

often this mythology that, oh, you've got to

1:04:23

tell the big horrible story and the redemption

1:04:25

story. It's like, no, it's

1:04:28

just sharing your humanity is such

1:04:31

a big part of it. Because that's

1:04:33

like you said, vulnerability. That's

1:04:35

where it really happens. I love that story. I

1:04:37

do something kind of similar, which is, you know,

1:04:39

sometimes I'll often talk about the power of habit.

1:04:42

And I've been talking about it for a decade now. And I kind of,

1:04:44

you know, so what I'll do is when I'm

1:04:46

talking about the power of habit, I'll always try and tell

1:04:48

a new joke. And the joke

1:04:51

that I'll choose is a joke that I'm only

1:04:53

50% certain is going to work.

1:04:56

And the reason why I choose a joke is only 50% certain is

1:04:59

because when it bombs, it's even

1:05:01

better. Right? When

1:05:03

I tell a joke and it bombs and nobody laughs. And

1:05:06

then I'm like, okay, I guess that joke.

1:05:08

I'm not using that joke again. It

1:05:10

reminds people like I'm trying, like

1:05:13

I'm not on autopilot. I'm up

1:05:15

here trying to, trying

1:05:18

to entertain you, trying to connect with you. And

1:05:21

that trying is what matters. That's where

1:05:23

the humanity comes from. And it's really

1:05:25

powerful. And we can do

1:05:27

it in conversations too, right? It's as simple as just

1:05:30

saying to someone like, you know, what do you

1:05:32

love about your job? That

1:05:34

question exposes a vulnerability. Like

1:05:36

when I ask that question, it's a little

1:05:38

personal. And it shows to the other person,

1:05:40

like, I'm exposing something about myself. I'm the

1:05:42

kind of person who's willing to ask that

1:05:45

kind of question. Will you

1:05:47

play along and will you answer it? Cause

1:05:49

you could brush me off and be like, that's a weird question. I

1:05:51

don't want anything to do with you anymore. But

1:05:53

if you never ask it, you never open

1:05:55

the door. Exactly. And if

1:05:58

you brush, if somebody brushes that question. question

1:06:00

off, chances are the openness or

1:06:02

willingness for connection in the first place was never there.

1:06:04

Totally, totally. So at least it's almost like you've just

1:06:06

prequalified the person, now you can move on to someone

1:06:08

else to maybe really have that connection. Or

1:06:11

maybe they're signaling like, look, I see you

1:06:13

trying to like move this into an emotional

1:06:16

conversation and I'm just not interested. Like I'm

1:06:18

here for a practical conversation, right? Yeah, maybe

1:06:21

there's just not resource for it in that moment. Totally,

1:06:23

and like sometimes like if you're there to like, you

1:06:25

know, you wanna buy a car and the car sales

1:06:27

line is like trying to nudge you and you're like,

1:06:29

no, no, I'm not interested in telling you about like

1:06:31

your childhood. Yeah, I'm not interested in telling you about

1:06:33

my hopes and dreams, my friend. I wanna know like

1:06:35

what kind of discount you're gonna give me. That's

1:06:37

okay, it's okay to signal that.

1:06:41

The point is though that you should be aware

1:06:43

of the conversation you're having. Like that shouldn't happen

1:06:45

by accident, that should happen because you're making a

1:06:47

choice. And if you're on the other side

1:06:49

of that, not the used car salesman, but if you're someone

1:06:51

who's trying to connect, you

1:06:54

should remember these, in these

1:06:56

skills that we all have, that

1:06:59

we can actually have a deeper conversation

1:07:01

with someone simply by asking them to.

1:07:03

Yeah, I love that. I

1:07:06

started asking this question at the

1:07:08

end of every Good Life Project conversation

1:07:10

after we first sat down 12

1:07:12

years ago. So I'm gonna ask it to you,

1:07:14

even though this is our second time recording a

1:07:17

conversation for the first time ever, which

1:07:19

is in the container of Good Life Project.

1:07:22

If I offer up the phrase to live a good life,

1:07:24

what comes up? That's a really

1:07:26

good question. I wish you'd asked me this

1:07:28

a decade ago, and I could see how my answer has changed

1:07:31

over time. The final chapter

1:07:33

in Super Communicators is about the Harvard

1:07:35

study of happiness, right? And then most

1:07:37

people are familiar with this. It's the

1:07:39

largest longitudinal study that's ever gone down

1:07:41

to try and figure out why some

1:07:43

people end up being happy as they

1:07:45

get older and others don't and successful.

1:07:48

And what's interesting about it is that the

1:07:51

language that those researchers have used, because it's been

1:07:53

a long time now, has changed quite

1:07:55

a bit over time. They talk about connection

1:07:57

now. They used to talk about love. They're

1:07:59

like the... secret was love and they didn't mean

1:08:01

romantic love. They meant the love between friends. But

1:08:04

the thing that's been consistent is that

1:08:06

if you look at why people are

1:08:09

happy, they're happy because they have

1:08:11

connections with other people. And

1:08:13

the connections that we have with other people, it doesn't have

1:08:15

to be a huge number of people. The number of people

1:08:17

doesn't matter, but the depth of the connection does. And

1:08:20

the way that we create deep connections is

1:08:23

through conversation. Like I love

1:08:25

spending time with my wife, or not talking to each

1:08:27

other when we're watching a movie together or when we're

1:08:30

going on a walk. But the

1:08:32

times that I remember most are

1:08:34

the conversations that we've had. And

1:08:36

that's probably true for all of us. So

1:08:39

when I think of what the good life is, what I think

1:08:41

of the good life is, for me at least, is

1:08:44

having people around me whom I love, whom

1:08:47

I'm having conversations with, where

1:08:49

we can actually connect with each other. And

1:08:51

that gets harder and harder as we get older, right? Because

1:08:54

we get inside our own heads and we

1:08:56

start deciding that some people are worth talking to and

1:08:59

others aren't. And that person's never gonna change. And it

1:09:01

doesn't matter what I say to that guy who's

1:09:04

not gonna listen to me. But if

1:09:06

we try, if we understand

1:09:08

how to have different kinds

1:09:10

of conversations and to invite people to match us

1:09:12

and to match them, then

1:09:14

we can have those conversations that make us feel

1:09:16

really connected. And if I can do that for

1:09:18

the rest of my life, I am certain

1:09:21

I'm going to die happy. Thank

1:09:23

you. Hey, if you

1:09:26

love this conversation, it's safe that you'll also

1:09:28

love a conversation I recently had on

1:09:30

our partner podcast, SPART, with

1:09:33

Ben Gutman about how to communicate simply

1:09:35

and clearly. You'll find the link to

1:09:37

Ben's episode in the show notes. This

1:09:40

episode of Good Life Project was

1:09:42

produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox

1:09:44

and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help

1:09:46

by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher Carter, crafted

1:09:48

our theme music and special thanks

1:09:50

to Shelly Dell for her research

1:09:52

on this episode. And of course,

1:09:54

if you haven't already done so, please

1:09:56

go ahead and follow Good Life Project

1:09:59

in your favorite. listening app. And

1:10:01

if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring

1:10:03

or valuable, and chances are you did

1:10:05

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1:10:07

me a personal favor, a seven second favor

1:10:10

and share it maybe on social or by

1:10:12

text or by email, even just with

1:10:14

one person just copy the link from the

1:10:16

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1:10:19

those you love those you want to

1:10:21

help navigate this thing called life a little

1:10:23

better so we can all do it better

1:10:25

together with more ease and more joy,

1:10:27

tell them to listen, then even invite them

1:10:29

to talk about what you've both

1:10:32

discovered because when podcasts become

1:10:34

conversations and conversations become action.

1:10:36

That's how we all come

1:10:38

alive together. Until next time,

1:10:40

I'm Jonathan field signing

1:10:42

off for good luck.