2:00

slept in a drawer. It

2:02

wasn't even money. And again, it should

2:04

have been. Kids are uncoddly

2:06

expensive. It was

2:08

actually love. We were so

2:11

worried that we would be depriving

2:13

our children from attention

2:16

and love by focusing on someone

2:19

else. Plus the average number of

2:21

kids per American family is two. And

2:23

who are we to say that we're above average? But

2:26

in the end, we realized something that

2:28

I think a lot of people in

2:30

this situation realize. Hearts

2:32

can expand and

2:34

accommodate. There's always more love to

2:36

go around. If you are able

2:39

to do so, always choose

2:41

love. I thought about this

2:43

a lot after having a conversation

2:45

with our next guest. This

2:59

is Facebook. On the 15th

3:01

of August today, super

3:04

thoughtful and charming. Karamo Brown.

3:06

You love him from Queer Eye

3:08

and his talk show, Karamo. And

3:10

I got to talk to him

3:12

about choosing love, choosing forgiveness, and

3:15

choosing fatherhood. He tells himself

3:17

every day that there is an abundance of

3:19

love out there. And I absolutely

3:22

love that. And good

3:24

news, my live tour, Your Favorite

3:26

Woman, the joy of sex education

3:28

is heading back on the road,

3:30

kicking things off in Connecticut, New

3:32

York and Wisconsin before hitting California,

3:34

Canada, lots of places in between. Go

3:37

to some epi.com for dates and tickets. Until

3:39

then, take a listen and make your

3:41

choice. Karamo,

3:52

I am so excited to see you again.

3:54

Oh, I know it's been way

3:56

too long. It has been way too long. And here

3:58

you are. I know that to realize

4:01

that no one can see us right now, but

4:03

you are in your studio for Karamo, right?

4:05

Are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels nice

4:07

to be here. Oh, it

4:09

must feel so nice. It's incredible

4:12

what you're doing. Well, you

4:14

know this process. Like, you know what it

4:16

is. But to be able to like be

4:18

in somewhere and to have a little bit

4:20

of control and to be like making sure

4:22

your voice is heard, it feels nice. Oh,

4:24

that is a good feeling. Yes.

4:27

Okay, we have so much. We have so

4:29

much to talk about today. But one of

4:32

the things I want to ask you about

4:34

before we, as we launch into this, because

4:36

this podcast is about choice and choices that

4:38

we've made in our lives and

4:40

big choices and small choices and something, you

4:43

know, things that reverberate through your life

4:46

that maybe didn't even seem

4:48

like big decisions at the time,

4:50

but actually were so impactful. So

4:52

I want to talk to you first about your

4:55

relationship to choice. How,

4:57

what kind of a decision maker are you? I'm

5:00

very decisive. I was just going to

5:03

say you seem like a

5:05

very decisive. The sharp

5:07

lines of your blazer are communicating.

5:09

The beard, and it tells you

5:11

sharp lines. This is

5:13

what it is. We're doing this and

5:15

that. But

5:18

that decisiveness, even within that, has

5:20

evolved. Oh, really? Because I realized

5:22

that early on, my decisiveness was

5:25

a protection that I had. It

5:28

was me being able to cut

5:30

things off very quickly to say I'm

5:32

not going right, I'm going left, because

5:34

I lived in a sort of fear-based

5:37

place, majority of my life. As

5:39

a child who didn't have a lot of stability,

5:42

there was always an underlining of fear. And

5:45

decisiveness gave me the illusion

5:47

of control. And

5:50

yeah, it made me feel like, okay, I'm

5:52

controlling my life. So I don't have to

5:54

ever feel insecure or insecure

5:56

again, because I've just made

5:58

a decision. instead of

6:00

realizing that sometimes the

6:03

decisiveness was an

6:05

illusion. And I really

6:07

didn't have control. I was making

6:09

a choice because I thought this is what

6:11

would make me feel safe. And I realize

6:14

now that though I'm decisive,

6:16

there's a lot of thought. There's

6:19

a lot of understanding of like,

6:22

okay, how does this affect me? How

6:25

is this affecting? I asked this question myself always.

6:27

Sorry, I'm not too deep. No, no,

6:29

no, no, this is so interesting. I asked

6:32

myself, and I do this all the time,

6:34

I asked myself, how would baby Karamo, how

6:37

would teenage Karamo, and how is

6:39

Karamo now all going to relate

6:41

to this decisive decision? Because

6:45

baby me wants to be loved and

6:47

protected. Teenage me was

6:49

rebellious and wanted to fight back. And

6:51

present me is older and wants peace.

6:54

And decisive decisions have to be able to

6:57

make sure that they're aligning and healing and

6:59

giving to all three of those versions of

7:01

me, because all three of those versions of me live in

7:03

me. And so my decisiveness

7:05

is not the wall and illusion of

7:07

control that it was before. It's now

7:10

a thoughtful decisiveness.

7:12

I feel like I relate to that

7:14

in a way. Like I feel like

7:17

there's something about, you know,

7:19

when you're going through, when there's trauma in

7:21

your life, there's something about cutting people out

7:23

of your life, cutting people out of your

7:25

heart. And you have to do it. Yes.

7:28

Like, like excising a tumor or something like

7:30

that. You just have to make a move.

7:33

Yes, yes. But it's that

7:36

illusion of fake security.

7:39

It's fake control. And

7:42

I didn't want to do that anymore. And

7:44

so, and now I'm just

7:46

thoughtful about the versions of me that still

7:48

live in me that need to constantly be

7:51

healed and loved on and to be acknowledged

7:53

and how my decisions affect all of us.

7:55

And it sounds like I'm talking about myself

7:57

with multiple personalities, but it's not. It's

8:00

just baby, baby Samantha is still in there. Baby Sam

8:03

is still in there. Yeah. And

8:05

whatever happened as a kid and whatever happened as

8:07

teenage Sam is still in there and that one

8:09

wants to fight and kick ass and she wants

8:11

to, she wants to change the world and, and

8:13

adult you is like, I still wouldn't

8:16

be both those people who want love and to

8:18

fight, but I also want some

8:20

peace and honesty and kindness and

8:23

clarity and my decisions,

8:25

my decisions align with all three of

8:27

them. Everything that you're saying so, so thoughtfully

8:29

is what I see. And I'm going to,

8:32

I'm going to come back to this point,

8:34

but everything that you're saying right now is

8:36

what I see in your show. Oh,

8:38

your patience with people, the way

8:41

that you speak so tenderly to

8:43

them as they're in crisis

8:45

or like trying to make sense of the

8:47

different versions of themselves

8:49

or whatever it is, the trauma

8:51

that they're experiencing. I feel

8:54

that mature Karamo coming

8:56

to like acknowledge the

8:58

past, but also try to

9:00

like make a path forward. You're

9:03

so sweet. I appreciate that. Like God,

9:05

honestly, I really appreciate that. 100%

9:07

true. Thank you. 100% true.

9:09

You can see it in every episode. Thank you. You

9:11

really can see it. Is there

9:14

a choice that you can look back on in

9:16

your life that you think really changed, I

9:19

guess changed the trajectory of your life, maybe in

9:21

an either in a very expected

9:24

way or, or something very unexpected. I

9:27

mean, there's two choices that

9:30

I think really affected me big time

9:32

that worked real choice that I know

9:34

that I made and that changed directory.

9:37

One is physical and one is more emotional. So

9:40

the emotional one was the day

9:43

I stopped living in fear

9:46

based decision making and more abundance based

9:48

decision making, which was big for me

9:51

because again, unstable childhood, like things

9:53

going on, you know, abuse

9:55

in my household. Daddy drinking and smoking too

9:57

much weed. I thought it was a good

9:59

idea. everything was always gonna be taken away. And

10:02

then one day I realized that even if something

10:04

is taken away, God

10:08

and the universe, and I will still provide. It

10:11

will still come. I

10:13

don't have to be fearful that I'll be

10:15

left out without anything. More

10:18

will come, because I deserve it, and

10:21

I'm walking in line with truth

10:23

and honesty that I'm going to get more. So if

10:25

I lose this job, I've never been fearful that I

10:27

won't get another. If

10:30

I lose this relationship, I'm not fearful that I

10:32

won't get another, because I no longer live in

10:34

that fear-based place that I used to live in.

10:36

And that was a conscious choice that

10:38

I had to practice, where I'd see myself

10:40

staying in a relationship that

10:43

I knew I wasn't supposed to be in. And then I was like,

10:46

come on, you deserve more than this. And there's

10:48

an abundance of love out there that you're gonna

10:50

get. And I would have to repeat that to

10:52

myself daily, Karamo. There's an abundance of love out

10:54

there that you're gonna get. And it just took

10:58

away the power from the fear. So that

11:00

was the one choice that I made that changed his trajectory.

11:02

And then- That is really, really good.

11:04

That's a practice. That is a practice that

11:06

you have to do. Practice, practice. And then when

11:08

I became, when I found out that I was

11:11

a father, because my

11:13

path to fatherhood was a little

11:15

bit untraditional, I

11:17

let people into my sexuality when I was 15. And

11:21

I had one best friend

11:23

who wanted to lose her

11:25

virginity but she didn't

11:27

want to do it with her boyfriend because she didn't want to,

11:29

he was older and she didn't want to seem like an experienced.

11:32

So she convinced my gay ass to

11:34

have sex. And I was like, why?

11:37

You know I'm a hobo. And she was like, come

11:39

on, let's try it. And

11:42

I said, okay, like

11:44

being an idiot teenager

11:46

and it lasted all

11:48

of one minute and then she moved away

11:50

and then 10 years later, she was like,

11:53

surprise, here's your kid. And

11:55

the day that I decided. But

14:03

every time that would happen, I would make the

14:05

choice to be thoughtful,

14:07

intentional, and forgiving because

14:10

I wanted him to see better.

14:12

And it worked. It worked. Oh

14:14

my gosh. And what a gift

14:17

for him to be chosen.

14:19

Do you know what I mean? To be

14:22

so intentionally chosen.

14:25

Really? Yeah.

14:29

I see the adult that he's become

14:31

and how the justity is. And I

14:34

know it was that. He went from

14:37

feeling alone, feeling distant, feeling isolated, feeling

14:39

like things are going to always be

14:41

in confusion to, oh,

14:45

people are choosing to be better for me

14:47

and I'm priority. And I see how you

14:49

respond to life now and I'm like, thank

14:51

God. Thank God you did that. Thank you

14:53

for you and for him and for your whole

14:55

entire family. That kind

14:57

of limitless love

14:59

is. But I didn't know in the moment.

15:02

I gotta tell you. I'm not the one sitting there and being

15:04

like I was some guru in the moment. I was like, reading

15:06

my teeth and being like, oh, just

15:08

better pay off one day because I'm so,

15:10

you know. Have

15:14

your career choices changed a lot

15:16

since you became a parent? How

15:18

have you navigated that world because

15:21

your career has exploded,

15:23

obviously? Yeah. Well,

15:26

you know, I believe in there's a bigger and

15:28

diviner plan that I'm like, I

15:30

always knew I wanted kids. Like when I was

15:32

in college, I was like, I want a husband,

15:35

I want kids. And anything. Like

15:37

I was very traditional. I still am very traditional.

15:39

I still want marriage and all that stuff. And

15:42

it's not for everybody for me, but I was like,

15:46

you know,

15:48

the universe guy had a bigger plan because if

15:50

I would have tried now, I

15:53

wouldn't have been like being able to have my son. Like

15:55

my son is 26 now, which gave me

15:57

the ability to know. now

16:00

when, like I'm still young, I'm 42, that

16:04

like now I'm like able to travel and do my

16:06

career. And as you know, these careers are demanding that

16:08

I'm like, if I had a toddler on my shoulder,

16:11

I couldn't do it. And I could,

16:13

as many people do, but

16:15

there'd be so much guilt that I'd have

16:17

to be working through and things that I'd

16:19

have to be figuring out where now I'm

16:22

like, okay. He can kind of

16:24

go on that journey with you a little bit.

16:26

Like you are- He's on it, yeah. He comes

16:28

with me where we do stuff together because he's

16:30

26. So it's like, you know, about to be 27. And

16:32

I'm like, oh, this works. This

16:35

works. We'll be right

16:37

back with Karamo after this. A

16:50

dark prophecy foretold her death.

16:53

Then through fire, he came to

16:55

pass and the faithful

16:58

mourn. But it wasn't the

17:00

hand of God that lit that she leave. Mortal

17:03

send, the new podcast from

17:05

Dateline and from me, Josh

17:08

Makers. Listen to

17:10

the latest episodes each week completely

17:12

free. Just search Mortal Send wherever

17:14

you get your podcasts. In

17:20

2022, the US Supreme Court

17:22

overturned Roe versus Wade. Since

17:25

then, it's been a barrage of bad

17:27

news. But behind the bleak

17:29

headlines, there are people working to protect

17:31

our right to control our future. The

17:34

Defenders is a new 10 part series about

17:36

the fight for freedom in a post-Roe America.

17:39

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17:42

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17:44

ways people are still accessing care

17:46

from crossing state borders to

17:48

self-managed abortion. You'll

17:51

hear from activists, providers, and

17:53

everyday people doing the work

17:55

to expand reproductive freedom. We're

17:58

here to tell you, anyone. can

18:00

become a defender. The Defenders is out

18:02

now wherever you get your podcasts. Okay,

18:13

I want to go back to the start of

18:16

your career a little bit. When

18:18

you started, you were the first, is

18:20

this right? That you were the first

18:22

openly gay black man to ever appear

18:24

on television? Is that true? No,

18:26

on reality television. On reality television? Okay,

18:29

that's the specific... Yeah, because the rule

18:31

was the first ever,

18:33

like, you know, that we saw. And then I was

18:35

the first on reality

18:38

television because no one had ever been on reality television.

18:41

Did you know that? Did you, when you

18:43

decided to do real world, did you know

18:45

that? No, it was a college kid that was like, I

18:47

can go in a house and get drunk. They're gonna give

18:49

me like $5,000 to spend my summer in a mansion with

18:54

a hot tub? Sure, sign me up. I

18:56

wasn't even thinking about like, let's

18:58

be on this show and make...

19:00

Let's increase representation in

19:02

the TV landscape. Exactly,

19:05

I want it. Yeah, I want representation

19:07

and diverse. I want people to...

19:09

No, I was like, so how

19:11

much liquor is in here? Your

19:14

margarita machine. Do I? Because I

19:16

prefer, I need a whole slushie machine. Exactly.

19:19

Just for me. For my

19:21

flavors. Exactly.

19:25

It is a truth. It is a truth. So,

19:28

I mean, I found out later because after it

19:30

was done, it was like, oh my

19:32

gosh, like you've done this. Yeah.

19:34

And it's wild because I

19:37

remember when I shot this in

19:39

2004, we went to

19:42

a black gay club on the show as they

19:44

follow you to clubs on those reality shows. And

19:47

nobody wanted to get on camera because the

19:49

stigma in the black community and communities of

19:52

color was so much and there

19:54

were so many people that were still dying.

19:56

I mean, still trans women enough color died,

19:58

high rates, gay people. men of

20:00

color still at risk. But

20:03

back then it was serious. It was

20:05

like you are getting shot

20:08

when you walk around your corner that no one wants

20:10

to be on camera. It was like I'd walk in

20:12

a club and they would all scatter. And so I

20:14

take a little bit pride now and I'm watching like

20:16

housewives and like there's all these gay guys on and

20:18

I'm like, good for y'all because I didn't

20:20

have that. No, it was really backing me up

20:22

on that. Exactly.

20:27

Okay, I

20:29

don't actually know

20:31

how it happened on Queer Eye like

20:33

how they cast it in a way. But how

20:35

did you become the culture

20:38

guy? Was that like, did you have

20:40

a choice in the matter where you I mean,

20:42

it makes me of course it makes

20:44

sense to me. But was that your was

20:47

that your goal to be that figure

20:50

on the show? No, so

20:53

they were casting the show for a

20:55

year. And I came in

20:58

the last three weeks because I was

21:00

watching Watch What Happens Live with Andy

21:02

Cohen and Carson Cressley, who's the original

21:04

Fast Five was on there and said

21:07

they were rebooting it. And

21:09

I was like, well, I'm getting I need to be

21:11

on this show and had and love the original but

21:13

I was like, I don't I don't cook clean. I

21:15

mean, like, I mean, like, I'm fashionable but I don't

21:17

have a I don't I'm not a chef.

21:20

I don't do like not sure what my niche

21:22

is. Yeah, that my show. Like I worked I

21:24

worked as a social worker and for many years, I'm

21:26

like, okay, I work in mental health. Like, right? Great.

21:28

Like, I don't know how this gonna work. But I

21:30

begged my agent to get me an audition. They said

21:33

no, no, no. And then this

21:35

woman and cast name Gretchen said,

21:37

Well, as a favor, I'll bring

21:39

him in. But what category does he want?

21:42

And I was like, I

21:45

was like, that hurt aside because I

21:47

don't know. I mean, like I got kids I can cook.

21:50

Like, I don't know how to put together

21:52

an outfit like I just really had no

21:54

idea. And then I got they decided culture

21:56

because it was generic. And so that's how

21:58

they brought me in. And

22:01

when I got there, they were doing the chemistry

22:03

test. So they brought in their top 50. Oh,

22:06

did you say their top 50, five zero? Five

22:10

zero. Oh gosh. That was a chemistry

22:12

test because they were going to mismatch.

22:14

And so we spent two days mismatching

22:16

for the five. And

22:19

I remember everybody else in

22:21

my category were all art

22:23

curators. They were all Broadway

22:26

stars, composers, because culture was

22:28

that. And

22:31

I literally walked outside

22:33

and called my

22:36

agent was like. So

22:39

I'm no one here. I'm not

22:41

an art and I don't know how to draw and I don't know

22:43

what to do. And he was like, well,

22:45

do you want to fake it? And I said, well, you know,

22:47

that's not my M.O. Like I don't I would fail at faking

22:50

it. Right. And I was like, so I'm just going to tell

22:52

them that like I work in mental health and

22:54

just like see how it works and just do my own

22:56

thing. I literally went into the

22:58

audition, into that chemistry test. And every time

23:00

we would talk about something, I was like,

23:02

well, you know, as much as I'd

23:04

like to take them to a museum, I'd like to find

23:06

out like, where did that trauma come from? Like what research

23:08

do they need? What happened? And I just

23:10

kept going up and up and up in the casting

23:13

and they kept getting rid of like art curators and

23:15

everything. And then at the last rate, I was like,

23:18

well, maybe this mental health thing is working,

23:20

maybe me being myself. You being yourself. Yeah.

23:22

They told me later on, they were like,

23:24

well, we decided that this was the fresh

23:27

take we needed for this new

23:29

iteration is somebody who's going to talk about

23:31

mental health and get to the deeper conversations.

23:34

It is brilliant because you were

23:36

perfect. Yeah. And that's what changed.

23:38

So the culture, culture title just a

23:40

throw over from the original one. Yeah,

23:44

they should change it like mental health or, you

23:46

know, I don't know, whatever they want

23:48

to get it to. Honestly, watching the show

23:50

makes me feel like all hosts should start

23:52

off as social workers. Just like

23:56

you had the cover. You have deep.

23:59

You have had. conversations with people

24:01

and so much of

24:03

the show was just about unearthing

24:05

those layers. Yeah. Like

24:08

why people couldn't change or

24:10

why people couldn't adjust their life, why they

24:12

couldn't move forward. Yeah. Well,

24:14

part of why I believe the show has been successful is because

24:18

people can't, you know, like

24:20

changing your outer and changing your home

24:23

will only last as long as

24:25

your mind is there. Yes.

24:29

You can get cute in the morning, but the minute that like something

24:31

pisses you off and you feel depressed, you're not going to dress up.

24:33

Yeah. You know, people will fit in

24:35

their house. That's why we see every movie when someone is

24:37

not in a space where they're happy or their self-esteem or

24:39

emotions are down. They don't change their clothes.

24:41

They don't do their hair. They don't, their house becomes a

24:43

mess. And so for

24:46

us to be able to work together has been

24:48

such a blessing because you need each component for

24:50

it to stick. Yes.

24:53

Because I feel like when people are stuck in

24:55

those situations, it's because they feel they're not worthy.

24:58

They're not worthy. They're not worthy of

25:00

an exterior that looks nice. They're

25:03

depressed. They don't feel like they

25:05

deserve to

25:08

live a high quality life. And that

25:10

is, I mean, I feel like I

25:12

feel that on your show

25:14

on Karamo. Oh, thank you. It is

25:17

an extension of the work that you were doing

25:19

on Queer Eye. And I think that, that

25:21

certainly holds true. Yeah. I

25:23

mean, like on Queer Eye, people sometimes because, you

25:25

know, daytime talk and also I'm not in a

25:27

celebrity genre, I'm on the, you know,

25:30

or a political genre, I'm in, you know, regular

25:32

everyday people that they come with

25:34

real emotions and it's heightened. And then I

25:36

have to give, bring them down and help

25:38

them to figure through it and give them

25:40

a resource. But it's the same thing on

25:42

Queer Eye because people, people get our, our

25:44

cute five minute packages that have cute music.

25:46

Yeah. But especially with my category, they don't

25:48

realize like, I mean, there's a

25:50

season that I had a daughter and

25:52

father. It was in

25:54

Philadelphia and the daughter was decided to

25:56

leave the house because her

25:59

father her just was like so strict and

26:01

a Latino family and he wanted her to be in

26:03

the business and one of all these things that she

26:05

rebelled and ran away and he hadn't seen her. And

26:08

when I brought them back together, the part

26:10

that we cut out was the daughter came

26:12

in and was like, you can't control me. I'm

26:15

my own person. And it was, and he's strong.

26:17

And he's like, this is culture. And they're, you

26:19

know, I'm a Latino man, and you don't talk

26:21

to your father that way. And it was like,

26:23

I hate it.

26:26

And then I got them to a place where

26:28

it was like, here we go. We can hear

26:30

each other. And then that's

26:32

when we as queer eyes start recording.

26:34

Right. And you see, hi, dad, I

26:36

want to, okay, I hear you now.

26:38

I want to talk to you. And

26:41

people don't realize from my scenes, I always

26:43

get that friction. And so with all my

26:45

talk show, you just

26:47

don't get that cut out and put over and

26:49

then pretty music put under, you know, you

26:52

get that you get to see the real things that

26:54

happens in all of our lives when your mom says

26:56

something to you, and she triggers you or your boyfriend

26:58

or your girlfriend, your husband, your wife. It

27:00

is, it is very messy, and

27:03

very heated. Yeah. And then I

27:06

go back into my office because now I've made it

27:08

that I do have that slushy margarita machine and

27:11

great flavor. You must have you

27:14

must have two different flavors at all

27:16

times. I will talk

27:18

to you because we shoot

27:20

six episodes a day. You

27:22

shoot six episodes a day.

27:25

You must be emotionally like

27:27

that's a lot of margaritas

27:29

girl comes come over to my office. It takes

27:32

a lot out of

27:37

you. I'm sure because you really are. It

27:40

is like I don't think that I

27:42

mean, listen, like I've interviewed people, this

27:45

might have been my entire career,

27:47

but you really, when you are

27:49

dealing with people who are not

27:52

media trained, and they don't have

27:54

like a veneer about them, they

27:56

are just like raw nerve endings.

27:59

And you are talking to a lot

28:01

of people at the end of their rope.

28:03

And that actually takes a tremendous toll

28:06

on you, I am sure. But you

28:08

do the same thing. And one of the

28:10

things that I have I respect about you

28:12

and I look at you as someone I

28:14

respect and I also take from your your

28:17

hosting talent is that when it comes to

28:19

like even that's your political stuff, like people

28:21

are at their wits end and they are

28:23

there. They're just it's raw emotion. And the

28:25

way you're able to navigate it to give

28:28

people respect that calms them and gives them

28:30

clarity is something that I admire. I

28:32

just had to give you your roses because I think you're

28:34

amazing. You know, you're amazing. Well thank you.

28:36

That is why I have a pina colada

28:38

machine in my house that is

28:40

churning 24 seven. Do you know

28:43

what I mean? Breakfast pina colada? Okay, let's prepare.

28:45

Okay, let's do it right. Let's do it right.

28:51

All that thought more with Karamo after one

28:53

more break. Oh,

29:04

it's your old pal Sarah Silverman. Do

29:07

you love the holidays? Do you hate

29:09

the holidays? You and I both

29:11

know that they can be tough for a lot of people

29:13

and I want to help you out. I

29:16

have got an episode of the Sarah

29:18

Silverman podcast out right now where I

29:20

am through all of your holiday related

29:22

questions, family stuff, emotional

29:24

stuff. Heck, I'll even give you

29:27

bad cooking tips if you want

29:29

to listen wherever you get

29:31

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By subscribing to Lemonada Premium today, you'll gain

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29:52

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Me, listen to Jeanette McCurdy answer your fan

29:56

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30:00

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Premium annual subscription today by clicking on our

30:06

podcast logo in the Apple Podcast app and

30:09

then clicking the subscribe button. So,

30:19

Haramo is taking the place of Maury,

30:22

which was on the air for decades.

30:24

What decisions did you

30:26

make to ensure that

30:28

the show would have its own identity? Because

30:31

it is very distinct, very different. Yeah,

30:34

so ironically, I wasn't supposed to take,

30:36

I wasn't taking Maury's spot. What

30:39

happened was they

30:41

announced my show and then he announced he retired

30:43

a day later, or a reverse. They

30:45

were already planned, you know how this works,

30:47

they were already planned for the announced mine

30:50

and then he decided he was retiring because,

30:52

you know, he had gone on the thing.

30:54

And then Press was like, here's

30:56

his replacement. And it was like, it

30:58

worked out because of that. I

31:01

did take a couple of elements that I did

31:03

respect about his show, but did in my own

31:05

way like or one element particularly is that I

31:07

mean, everyone talks about like you are the father

31:10

or whatever. But

31:12

because of my own life with a

31:14

paternity issue and finding my child later

31:16

on, I wanted that element. And

31:18

at first, I wasn't going to have it on my show because

31:21

of the fact that I was like, I don't want anybody to

31:23

compare me to Maury. And

31:25

then people did it anyway. And I was like, well, no

31:28

need to fight that battle. And so

31:30

I took that element. The only difference

31:32

is that I don't do babies. I

31:34

do adults like myself who

31:38

can understand what it means to have

31:40

results from a paternity

31:42

test. But I mean, like, again,

31:44

I also when people said that, like, I

31:46

keep my show different, like the difference, main

31:48

difference between me and most people that's in

31:51

this genre is I

31:53

want resolution. And you know,

31:55

I want resolution and I want tools. And

31:58

last season one, I gave out. more

32:01

therapy than NBC probably wanted to pay for.

32:03

But I was like, I don't care. Like

32:05

every episode I was like, at the end

32:07

of it, I was like, can I pay

32:09

for therapy? And they're like, yeah. But

32:11

now season two of my show, we've already shot

32:13

two weeks. And I remember there

32:16

was one episode where I didn't offer them therapy and

32:18

they were like, I don't get free therapy. Where's my

32:20

therapy? And I was like, yeah, well, I'll give you

32:22

therapy. You want therapy? It's

32:24

good. It's like a sign that I'm not offering

32:26

you. Yeah, it's a good thing. I

32:28

was like, I want to open you. You did good. But

32:30

yeah, sure. Well, they were a session or two. That

32:34

does feel like such a difference that you're like,

32:36

it doesn't feel like you're trying to get people

32:38

to throw chairs at each other. In fact, it's

32:40

the opposite. Opposite. Yeah, I'm like. Complete opposite.

32:42

I'm like, you gotta calm down. Like if someone

32:44

starts standing up and they start doing something, I'm

32:46

like, no, no, no. I'm like, it's

32:48

okay for you to show your emotions and be a

32:50

human being because we all have our moments of like,

32:52

we're frustrated. I've been dealing with them for 15 years

32:55

and I don't feel hurt or I don't trust you. But

32:59

you gotta get calm because unless you

33:01

want calm, calmness and

33:03

clarity, then we're not gonna be able to get

33:05

through this. Right. Anyways, you're

33:07

so great on your show, but you're so

33:09

good at giving, you are good at giving

33:12

advice. You are great at guiding people. I

33:14

think that's people who have walked

33:16

through fire are always like

33:18

really calm and

33:20

good at like

33:22

guiding other people. Do

33:25

you seek other people's advice when you're trying to

33:28

make the big calls?

33:30

Do you have a, who do you lean

33:32

on, I guess? Or? So

33:36

I'm the youngest of four sisters and I was

33:38

obviously my mother and father in their tumultuous life

33:40

that I was raped by my mother because

33:42

by the time being the youngest, she finally got

33:44

the courage to leave my father being abusive when

33:47

my sister, my youngest sister was leaving high

33:49

school. So then it was just she and

33:51

I. Okay. I

33:55

look to them. They are my

33:57

rocks, my, you know, I've

33:59

always. I always said, I don't understand how

34:01

we ever thought God was a woman. I mean,

34:03

a man. I never thought how

34:05

we thought that, especially when the only thing we

34:07

know on this world is

34:10

women to be able to reproduce other than

34:12

trans women. Sorry, before you know someone. But

34:14

you know, like women to be able to

34:16

reproduce. And I'm like, so the thing that

34:18

creates everything as a man doesn't make sense

34:20

to me. I don't

34:22

understand that. And

34:24

it's always, it's also what's given me my empathy

34:27

and what's given me my clarity is

34:29

when you're surrounding a household where people are willing

34:31

to be vulnerable

34:34

while also being strong, be forward

34:37

while also understanding that it's OK to let

34:39

other people leave. Like when you see just

34:42

people who, you know, these women in my

34:44

life that showed me, I just mimic them.

34:46

I mimic them. I really do. And

34:49

anytime I have something, I go

34:51

to them and I say, check me, you

34:53

know, let me know where I'm at. Like, because I trust

34:55

what you have to say. And do they check you? Like,

34:58

absolutely not. Absolutely

35:00

all the time. OK, it's only

35:02

been in a shift like maybe

35:04

in this past two

35:07

years where now they've been calling

35:09

me oddly, they're like, you're the patron girl of

35:11

the family now. Like, I'm the oldest. I'm the

35:13

oldest boy out of all the cousins. So they're

35:15

like, you know, you got to handle this now.

35:17

And I'm like, girl, what's this happened? I'm OK

35:20

with you all handling it. Like, y'all been doing

35:22

a great job. And you know, but but

35:24

now they're checking me. They're not checking me as

35:26

much, but they love to check me and tell

35:28

me like, OK. And I have a

35:30

sister who is a counselor. She's

35:33

a PhD and she loves to

35:35

critique my advice all the time.

35:37

Oh, really? She

35:39

wants to be like, so you

35:41

were right. But, you know, clinically

35:43

speaking, you could have probably went a little bit further here.

35:46

And I'm like, thank you for educating me. She

35:49

thinks she's reading me, but she also just makes

35:51

me better. That's amazing. One

35:54

of the things that I think you're also so

35:56

incredible at is getting men to be so. vulnerable.

36:02

Okay? Like we obviously

36:05

as a country reckon with

36:08

misogyny and sexism and all kinds

36:10

of garbage patriarchy

36:13

all the time and so

36:16

much of that I don't know feels like is there

36:18

gives men are just conditioned to like not

36:20

all men but you know a lot of them

36:23

conditioned to like hold it all in like suck

36:25

it in and try to ride

36:28

through every situation on a white stallion and

36:30

save the day and it just doesn't work

36:34

at all. Not wanting to

36:36

appear emotional is like

36:38

it's a crisis. Yes. It's

36:40

a crisis. Yes. How

36:43

do you break through to

36:45

men in particular? I mean is it

36:49

becoming easier the more

36:51

that you do it? It's very

36:53

tricky. I think

36:56

for me it's become easier because now

36:58

men know I'm a safe space to

37:00

do it. Okay. So we have house

37:03

parties and you can always catch

37:05

a guy in a corner crying with me. I'm

37:08

not even joking. Not even joking.

37:10

Like my girlfriend's be like where's

37:12

my where's my husband and they're

37:14

in a corner somewhere like on

37:17

my shoulder and I'm like okay.

37:20

Sometimes I just don't want

37:23

to be the hero. But I think

37:25

I think the steps for men that

37:27

don't know my career and don't know

37:30

me that I interact with is a

37:32

lot of times the first thing I tell them is not

37:34

to be afraid of the dictionary meaning like

37:36

these terms of like patriarchy vulnerability

37:41

they have a connotation in their mind a definition

37:44

that they put in their mind that they feel

37:46

like it's now going to define them and

37:48

I'm like don't be afraid of these definitions like

37:51

let's explore what it actually this is for

37:53

you you know and this is for everything people get

37:55

so afraid of definitions that then they

37:57

start to make that their battle and that's that's

37:59

the they want to die on. It's like,

38:01

stop being afraid of the English language. It's okay.

38:04

It existed. It was there before. But let's talk

38:06

about what it could mean for you. And I

38:08

think once I get them to understand that like

38:11

patriarchy in these words, yes,

38:14

it's a word. And yes, you've benefited

38:16

or yes, you've exhibited it. Doesn't

38:19

mean that it doesn't mean you can't grow through

38:21

it. Doesn't mean that you can't be better. Doesn't

38:23

mean I'm going to define you. Doesn't mean that

38:25

I'm not going to allow you to be better

38:27

than that moment that you had where you did

38:29

subscribe to it. That I then

38:31

see the first brick in that wall go down.

38:36

Then I start to, I do a

38:38

sort of a reverse psychology of like, what

38:41

are the expectations that the women have for you

38:43

in your life that you don't

38:45

like? Or that they uphold when

38:47

it comes to this patriarchy. And it's

38:49

not that I'm actually accusing

38:52

or putting it on the women. What it

38:54

is, it's making them to start to

38:56

explore that the same way that you're

38:58

saying that this other sex

39:00

has these things, you have certain

39:02

things too that you feel like are pressure that

39:04

you have. Obviously, your pressures are not

39:07

as bad, but it doesn't matter right now. We're

39:09

not comparing or contrasting. What I'm doing is allowing

39:11

you to say like, well, yeah,

39:13

sometimes I don't like to be the one that has to

39:15

like you just said, you know, be that hero. I don't

39:17

like that. You know, she tells me that I can't do

39:19

this or I can't do that. Because if I do, then

39:22

you know, it's, you know, like

39:24

a lot of men feel like they get

39:26

mixed messages. Obviously, women have been experiencing that

39:28

their entire lives. So it's like, well, with

39:30

you, but I'm going to give

39:32

you a space to express it. Because

39:35

for me, I'm not going to chastise you

39:37

for having a feeling I'm going to allow

39:39

you to feel safe. But once you feel

39:42

safe enough to express it, now it's time

39:44

for you to go through it and understand

39:47

why you have that feeling, why it's detrimental,

39:49

and how you can be better than that

39:51

feeling. It's okay. But you got to be

39:53

better. You got to be better. You got to be better.

39:56

You got to be better. Like let's let's explore the choices, you

39:58

know, to go back to what we originally talked about

40:00

how do you explore the choices you

40:02

made and how do you

40:05

be better than those and

40:08

yeah and it's working. It's very very

40:10

hard to solve a problem

40:12

if you can't articulate it don't

40:14

you think? Yes. If

40:16

you can't say the problem

40:18

out loud you

40:20

can very rarely fix it.

40:23

But most men are afraid to again afraid

40:25

because they're afraid of the dictionary. Yeah. They don't

40:27

want to define it they don't want to say

40:29

it because if they own it then they're a

40:31

problem and they don't want to and it's

40:33

like you got don't be afraid of that dictionary. Right.

40:36

I mean we're there's an episode on Queer Eye that

40:38

from this past season I'm very proud of of I

40:40

we work with a frat and

40:43

they asked me at the beginning episode like are you gonna take

40:45

one person what who do you want from the frat and I

40:47

was like no I'm gonna take the whole I'm gonna take

40:49

a whole group. I've been all of you. I've

40:51

been doing group sessions forever like I know how

40:53

to do this and we're

40:55

sitting with these boys and I was just asking them like what

40:58

is it the first question I asked was what does it

41:00

mean to be a man and they're like they

41:03

were like going into these definitions and

41:05

I was like they were all wrong

41:08

because they were afraid of like

41:11

just the regular definition is that

41:13

it's just your chromosomes. Right. Right.

41:15

And we're not all these

41:17

other things that you've added on none

41:19

of these are what it's supposed to

41:22

be it's you're talking about chromosomes right

41:24

now and I'm and I'm talking about

41:26

chromosomes and you're talking about feelings and

41:28

and expectations now let's challenge those and

41:31

like having these nine boys

41:33

in a circle crying because

41:36

they let go of what it was to be a man.

41:38

You made so many

41:40

spouses future spouses lives

41:42

better in that

41:45

moment. That's a

41:49

hope girl. That is a

41:51

hope lady. That's a mission. Going into

41:53

a frat house and being like no no

41:56

no they're like which what which one of

41:58

us is has if you You're like every

42:01

single one of you get downstairs right

42:03

now I'm telling you I it's

42:06

one of the proudest moments I've ever had on

42:08

TV seeing these young men cry and open up

42:10

and and experience

42:12

the vulnerability in a public and together right and

42:15

know that it's okay to talk about it and

42:18

I'm proud of it. I'm proud more

42:20

of this more of this, please You

42:24

know you and activism so

42:26

natural to you I mean

42:29

you do a lot of work across a lot

42:31

of different spaces, but and it's more Bipartisan

42:33

than you might expect. Yeah, you

42:36

met with Karen Karen parents Yeah,

42:39

it was her her chief of

42:41

staff. Okay. What makes you decide

42:43

what makes you able to I think I know What

42:45

makes you able to reach across the aisle like that?

42:47

You're just Calm

42:50

you see the goal. I see the goal see the end

42:52

goal. Yeah, I see the angle and plus, you know I really

42:54

to be honest with you I never had a choice, you know

42:56

when you're black gay Immigrant parents like

42:59

I'm first generation American my parents I'm from this

43:01

country I had no choice but to reach across

43:03

because otherwise people weren't gonna reach across to me,

43:05

right and That's

43:08

literally what it was it was like well, I

43:11

know that if I sit here and and die on my hill

43:13

I It's not

43:15

gonna benefit me and it's definitely not gonna benefit for the other

43:17

people who don't have the access of privilege that I have So

43:20

I might as well Go try

43:22

to talk to them because you know, like whatever

43:24

I'm not gonna like allow you to hurt anybody

43:26

And I'm not gonna allow you to do things

43:28

But like if we can find some common ground

43:30

like why not, you know And it's

43:32

come back to bite me in my ass a couple of times, you

43:34

know, like that people have been like Listen

43:40

there's no without you know

43:42

without risk There's no reward

43:45

and you can't listen to people you

43:47

can't there's a lot of armchair Critics

43:50

a lot of armchair quarterback. Yeah at all

43:52

times exactly and I and I understand it

43:54

I get it, you know people, you know,

43:56

they're we're in a tense moment where it's

43:58

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