0:00

The idea is that the chemicals

0:02

that make us feel good and the chemicals

0:04

that make us feel bad have much

0:07

more power than we realize . They're

0:09

not like just emotions . In

0:11

the animal world , those chemicals

0:14

are the whole operating system

0:16

. A good feeling chemical tells

0:18

an animal to go toward a reward

0:20

, which is anything that meets a need , and

0:23

a bad feeling chemical tells an animal

0:25

to pull back to avoid threats

0:27

.

0:30

Hello , ladies and gentlemen , and welcome

0:32

to Grand Slam Journey podcast , where

0:35

we discuss various topics

0:37

related to the Grand Slam

0:40

Journey of our lives sports

0:42

, business, and technology

0:45

. My guest today

0:47

is Dr Loreta Bruning

0:49

. Dr

0:51

Loreta Bruning is the founder of the

0:54

Inner Mammal Institute . She's

0:56

a professor of management , a

0:58

parent and author

1:01

of eight books, ninth

1:03

is on the way, and a fellow

1:05

podcaster . Her podcast

1:08

is called The Happy Brain

1:10

, and I encourage you to

1:12

check it out . I recently

1:14

read one of her books named

1:16

Habits of a Happy

1:18

Brain: Retrain your

1:21

brain to boost your serotonin

1:23

, dopamine , oxytocin,

1:25

and endorphin levels , and

1:28

I found it very informative

1:30

and fascinating , and

1:33

so I was excited to have Dr Loretta

1:36

Breuning join me and talk more about

1:38

the subject . Dr Breuning

1:41

founded the Inner Mammal Institute

1:43

in 2013 . She

1:46

was disappointed by prevailing models

1:48

of human emotion , so she

1:50

went back to basic biology to

1:53

better understand humans and

1:55

our emotions . The Inner

1:57

Mammal Institute helps people

2:00

build their power over their mammalian

2:02

brain chemistry . Happiness

2:05

comes from chemicals We've inherited

2:07

from earlier mammals: dopamine

2:09

, serotonin , oxytocin, and

2:12

endorphin . When

2:14

you know how they work in animals , your

2:16

ups and downs make sense

2:18

. Our happy chemicals evolved

2:21

to reward survival

2:23

behaviors , not to make us

2:25

feel good all the time , but

2:27

you can feel good more often when you understand

2:29

nature's operating system . The

2:32

Inner Mammal Institute has all the

2:34

resources you need to make peace with

2:36

your Inner Mammal Books

2:39

, videos , podcasts , social

2:41

media blogs , infographics

2:44

, a training program, and

2:46

a zoo tour . It's

2:48

not easy being a mammal , but

2:50

you can build your power over the

2:53

quirky brain we've inherited

2:55

. I have been thinking

2:57

for the longest time why

2:59

we humans tend to be so different

3:01

and behave so differently

3:03

, despite our genetical

3:06

similarities . Based

3:08

on science , our DNA is

3:11

99.9%

3:13

the same as the person next

3:15

to us , yet there

3:17

seem to be big differences

3:19

in the way we see and perceive

3:21

the world . Reading this book

3:23

and talking to Dr Brunning made

3:26

me understand these differences

3:28

. During this conversation

3:31

we dive into

3:33

her book and studies . We

3:36

go through all the major chemicals and

3:38

their impact and purpose and

3:40

how they affect our behavior . We

3:42

discuss dopamine , serotonin , oxytocin

3:45

, endorphins and cortisol

3:47

. We talk about the impact

3:49

of our childhood experiences on

3:52

brain development and behavior

3:54

, in the creation of neural

3:56

pathways in childhood versus

3:59

later in our life . We

4:01

explore how the brain's verbal and

4:04

emotional centers interact and

4:06

how mirror neurons can shape

4:09

behavior . Dr Brunning

4:11

shares tips from her book on

4:13

managing unhappy emotions . We

4:16

talk about the science of happy chemicals

4:18

, as well as its relation

4:20

to exercise or other

4:22

addictions . We discuss

4:25

the importance of understanding our

4:27

brain's operating system and

4:29

how it affects our decision making

4:32

, and how cortisol builds

4:34

even bigger pathways than

4:36

happy chemicals , which explains our

4:38

fear-driven nature . If you

4:40

enjoyed this episode , I want

4:42

to ask you to please share

4:44

it with someone you believe may enjoy it as well

4:46

. Consider leaving a review

4:49

on Apple Podcast or Spotify

4:51

, and don't forget to subscribe

4:53

. This is your host , clara

4:55

Egochova . Thank you for tuning in

4:58

, and now I bring you Dr

5:00

Loreda Brunning . Thank

5:03

you , dr Loreda Brunning , for

5:05

accepting my invitation to Grants them Journey

5:07

podcast . So great to have you . How are

5:09

you doing ? Great Nice to

5:11

be here . Where are you going from Oakland

5:14

, california ? Oh , you're in

5:16

the baby room outside of San Francisco . Yeah

5:19

, I recently relocated from

5:21

there , although San Jose .

5:22

Oh really .

5:23

Oh , okay .

5:24

Nearby .

5:25

Yeah , and so you're the founder

5:27

of the Inner Manual Institute

5:29

and wrote the book Best

5:31

Seller Habits of a Happy

5:34

Brain , which I have been reading , and

5:36

I'm so fascinated by it and

5:38

I feel like it explains

5:40

the world so much better . I

5:43

can almost understand the chaos

5:45

that I've always felt like is happening

5:47

, just the way our brains get wired

5:49

and the differences , because I've been always pondering

5:52

, like , from DNA perspective , we'll all

5:54

the same , but at the same time , these

5:56

tiny differences make such a big

5:58

difference , our upbringing

6:00

and the way we experience the world around

6:03

us . And so , first of

6:05

all , thank you for writing the book

6:07

and I hope everyone

6:09

will read it and I'm excited

6:11

to dive into it with you . But I want to give you

6:13

an opportunity to introduce yourself to our

6:16

listeners first .

6:17

Well , first I should say the name of the book

6:19

, so Habits of a Happy Brain Retrain

6:22

your brain to boost your serotonin , dopamine

6:25

, oxytocin and endorphin levels

6:27

. And I've written eight

6:29

books on this topic , so each

6:31

one I delve deeper into

6:33

one aspect , but that's the most introductory

6:35

book with the introductory science

6:38

. So to introduce

6:40

myself , so I was a

6:42

college professor for 25 years

6:44

and I had enough , let's

6:47

just say , and I took early retirement

6:49

and that's when I had

6:52

the time to look into

6:54

why did academic psychology

6:56

fail to explain the world around

6:59

me ? And I always talk

7:01

about how we're wired in youth , so

7:03

I should mention so . When I was young

7:05

I was surrounded by a lot of

7:07

unhappiness , as many people are

7:09

, and some people build

7:12

some theory about why , but

7:14

for me it was more like a mystery , like

7:16

what is everybody so upset about ? So

7:19

that's , I think , what was really

7:21

driving me . And then , once I raised

7:24

my own children and had thousands

7:26

of students , I saw that life

7:28

didn't work according to the book of social

7:31

science and I ended up looking

7:33

at monkey studies , just because

7:36

when I read self-help books I would read one

7:38

little monkey study here and one little monkey study

7:40

there . So I basically spent

7:42

years of full time . Looking at monkey

7:44

studies .

7:45

Love it and I also find

7:48

it so fascinating

7:50

and how it would make sense

7:52

at least for me , the way I understood it that

7:54

you're tying the reality to the

7:56

evolution . Nature builds

7:58

on what existed if we don't

8:01

create something new . So I love how

8:03

in the book you kind of build on the reptile

8:05

brain and mammal brain and the

8:07

human brain and expanding

8:09

the size of the brain and the evolution

8:12

that it takes to build the neural pathways

8:14

and just to share . I love observing

8:17

animals , specifically dogs

8:20

. I feel one of my best teachers

8:22

is my own pet , ali , and it's

8:24

just so interesting to me when

8:27

you look at them I totally see

8:29

just that survival brain and

8:31

how we learn and react

8:33

. So sometimes I have the best observation

8:36

just looking at my dog and

8:38

seeing how she behaves and how we train

8:40

her .

8:41

Exactly , exactly , and that we can train

8:43

our own inner mammal in the same way

8:45

. And just

8:47

to say that the reason I came up

8:49

with this is not because of any theoretical

8:52

reason that I think it should be this

8:54

way , but is when I stumble

8:56

on the fact that the same chemicals that

8:58

make us feel good are , in animals

9:00

, the exact same chemicals and they're controlled

9:03

by the exact same brain structures , and

9:05

I thought how come nobody ever told me

9:07

this ? So that's the mind .

9:10

I love it and the same as you

9:12

shared your childhood story not bringing

9:15

I have mine and I'm sure all

9:17

of us , as they're listening now , can reflect

9:19

on their own and just to share

9:21

. In my family when I was growing

9:23

up there was a lot of anger . So I was joking

9:25

we should have gone through the anger

9:27

management movie . I

9:29

was thinking I'm so pretty

9:31

, I was so pretty in the car , I thought it

9:34

was spot on for our family . So,

9:36

sometimes throwing chairs

9:38

out of the window was a totally acceptable

9:41

behavior . You

9:43

can imagine the relationship that

9:46

my neural pathways have probably

9:48

built from just looking

9:50

at what was going on around me and

9:52

just the expression of anger .

11:00

Yes , and then the fascinating thing is that

11:02

the person who throws the chairs out of the window

11:04

, they justify it

11:06

with their verbal brain , and

11:09

the verbal brain is the part of the brain

11:11

that other people are thinking is

11:13

the higher part , and

11:15

that's what I wanted a really new

11:17

view of this quote , unquote higher

11:19

part of the brain . And also

11:21

to talk about mirror neurons , that

11:23

when you watch someone when you're young

11:26

engaging in these unhealthy behaviors

11:28

, it activates inside

11:30

you and it says , oh , so this is how

11:32

a person manages their anger .

11:34

Yes , gosh , and I

11:36

had so many excuses when I was younger

11:39

. I think it took me quite a bit of coaching

11:42

and just getting to know myself to

11:44

try to figure out how to not

11:46

act on my anger . But it was so

11:48

embedded inside of me and I have to say I

11:51

spent probably way too many of my young years

11:53

not knowing how to deal with it and

11:55

just feeling the sense of it , which

11:57

you have fantastic tips for

11:59

dealing with unhappy emotions

12:02

in your book and I would love to dive into

12:04

. But before we go to all of that

12:06

, I want to actually turn it to

12:08

you , because you're the expert . I

12:11

want to dive into each of the specific

12:13

chemicals , but also would

12:15

love people to understand who

12:18

haven't read that book yet . What

12:20

does it mean to have this human brain

12:22

and kind of the development ?

12:24

So what do you think would be best

12:26

to start with to give listeners

12:29

a good base of understanding the

12:31

idea is that the chemicals

12:34

that make us feel good and the chemicals

12:36

that make us feel bad have much

12:39

more power than we realize . They're

12:41

not like just emotions In

12:43

the animal world , those chemicals

12:46

are the whole operating system

12:48

. A good feeling chemical tells

12:50

an animal to go toward a reward

12:52

, which is anything that meets a need

12:54

, and a bad feeling chemical tells

12:56

an animal to pull back to avoid

12:58

threats . So we're constantly

13:01

releasing these chemicals for these good reasons

13:03

, to tell you hey , this is good for

13:05

me , I'm going to go toward it . It excites

13:07

you and activates you , and

13:10

the brain that controls these

13:12

chemicals is called the limbic system

13:14

, which includes things everyone has heard

13:16

of , like the amygdala and the hippocampus , and

13:19

the point is not to pinpoint individual

13:22

brain functions or structures

13:24

. That's what academia does , is

13:26

put everything into silos . But what's important

13:29

is that altogether , they

13:31

are the core operating system

13:33

, and the important thing is your

13:36

cortex , which is your verbal

13:38

narration going on . Your inner

13:41

voice does not control

13:43

the chemicals , and that's why so

13:45

many people think , oh , I really

13:47

want to do this , but they can't get themselves

13:49

to do it , or I don't want to do

13:52

it , but they do it anyway . So

13:54

this pink , fluffy part

13:56

of the brain I call it is

13:58

just one part

14:00

of the brain and it's not connected

14:03

to your body . Your pink , fluffy

14:05

brain is connected to your limbic

14:07

system and that's connected to

14:09

your body . So you can't get yourself

14:11

to do anything without getting

14:13

your limbic system on board . And

14:15

it's exactly like a horse and rider

14:17

that the rider has

14:19

to persuade the horse to go

14:22

. Yelling at it or

14:24

ignoring the horse doesn't

14:26

work .

14:27

I love it and that probably explains

14:29

a lot of our inner dialogue

14:32

that sometimes you have almost like two people

14:34

fighting with each other and you can figure

14:36

out which one yells louder , and

14:38

either feeling stuck or just

14:41

knowing which one to listen to . And

14:43

let's maybe dive into

14:45

the specific chemicals as well

14:47

, because I think it'll be really interesting to

14:49

understand how they influence

14:51

the way we feel . If you

14:53

could describe the serotonin , dopamine

14:56

, oxytocin , endorphins

14:58

, and actually also I think it will be

15:00

really good to describe the cortisol

15:03

.

15:04

Sure , dopamine is the one we hear

15:06

a lot about in the news . Each

15:09

of these is covered in a way that I

15:11

feel is not very realistic . I

15:14

always go back to how it works in animals

15:16

, if you could imagine a monkey

15:18

waking up in the morning and they're hungry

15:21

and they're not going to eat unless

15:23

they do something about it . So

15:25

they look around for food and when

15:27

they see something that they can get

15:29

, dopamine is released . Dopamine

15:33

is both the energy that makes

15:35

us feel excited and is the

15:37

belief of like I can get that

15:39

and it will meet my need

15:41

. The monkey moves

15:44

toward the fruit and every step

15:46

closer releases more

15:48

dopamine , but when the monkey

15:50

finally gets the fruit , the dopamine

15:53

stops . This is so

15:55

helpful in understanding your daily life

15:57

. You look for something that will meet your need

15:59

. You feel excited when you see

16:01

something you think you can get . You

16:03

get more and more dopamine when you move

16:06

toward it , but then it stops

16:08

, and then you don't know why it stops

16:10

. Unfortunately , people may think

16:12

they have a disorder or something's wrong

16:14

with the world , but when you know

16:16

the natural function of dopamine , it just

16:18

makes sense Mm-hmm , so

16:21

oxytocin . So

16:23

this is the idealized

16:26

warm and fuzzy group

16:28

feeling that people talk about

16:30

in many idealized ways , like community

16:33

, for example . But in the animal

16:35

world a herd functions

16:38

in a very specific way

16:40

that we should understand . So

16:42

when animals are too close

16:44

together they have conflict over

16:47

food , so they would really rather

16:49

spread out . But when

16:51

they perceive a predator , that

16:53

motivates them to get close

16:56

. When they get close they relax

16:58

, like , ah , now I'm safe . So

17:00

oxytocin is that feeling of , oh

17:03

, now I'm safe because I'm protected

17:05

by others . But that's a fundamentally

17:08

selfish feeling , because I

17:10

want you to protect me from the

17:12

predator , but you want me to

17:14

protect you from the predator . So

17:16

if we don't understand that

17:19

, then we're constantly getting upset

17:21

with other people because we have

17:23

unrealistic expectations

17:26

that they should protect us

17:28

from predators . And then they

17:30

don't and they let us down , ok

17:32

. So moving on

17:35

to the next chemical , because it keeps getting

17:37

more and more complicated . A

17:40

whole century of research shows

17:43

that mammals have a lot of social

17:45

rivalry and competition

17:47

within their groups , and the

17:50

ones that are lower

17:52

in the social hierarchy end

17:54

up making fewer surviving copies

17:56

of their genes . So animals

17:58

are very motivated to rise in the

18:00

social hierarchy of their group because

18:03

it gets the morbid opportunity

18:05

and improves the survival prospects

18:08

of their young . Serotonin

18:10

is released when a mammal gets

18:12

that little bit of like . You know I

18:14

rose above you . Now

18:16

no one wants to admit that

18:18

they feel that way , but everyone

18:21

can see that everyone else feels that

18:23

way . So

18:25

serotonin is not mentioned

18:27

this way ever in the official

18:31

academic view of serotonin

18:34

. But monkey studies in the

18:36

1980s showed that when

18:38

a monkey had that momentary

18:41

opportunity to

18:43

get the difference from

18:45

the monkeys around it , if people

18:48

have read sometimes about the dynamics

18:50

of a monkey group , it's like

18:52

, ah , I'm the man . And

18:54

then that feeling is quickly metabolized

18:57

, the serotonin is gone . So

18:59

that's why everyone is looking for that one

19:01

up feeling again and again and again .

19:05

I think that's basically just what I do . Ponsperly

19:07

explains a lot our inclination

19:11

to hierarchies . Isn't it that

19:13

, wanting to in some ways cling

19:16

towards the hierarchy ? And where in

19:18

the world hierarchy you are ?

19:20

Yes , and the fact that you're constantly creating

19:22

that hierarchy inside your mind

19:25

and you have really strong feelings

19:27

about where you are in it . And

19:29

yet , because we're not conscious

19:32

that this is a natural process , we

19:34

blame the world for doing it

19:37

to us .

19:39

Gosh makes me think about

19:41

all of the wars and powers

19:43

that we've been struggling with ever since

19:45

the history of the time , and I

19:48

guess they're in the animal kingdom in some

19:50

ways , but because they don't have the

19:52

technology and guns , maybe we

19:54

don't see it that way or not as distracted

19:56

, and so

19:58

should we dive into endorphins . Is

20:00

that the last one from the happy chemicals

20:03

? Yes , which is a big one

20:05

for me . Being an athlete , I

20:07

think I have had an addiction

20:09

to endorphins quite a bit in my

20:12

life , and so I would like to then kind

20:14

of dive into follow up questions , but please

20:16

lead us to endorphins , sure

20:18

.

20:18

Well , thank you so much for corroborating

20:21

my view of endorphins . So it

20:24

is the body's natural opioid

20:26

and the word endorphin means endogenous

20:28

morphine , and it's triggered

20:31

by real physical pain . So

20:33

if a gazelle is attacked by

20:36

a predator and its flesh is ripped

20:38

open , it can still run for

20:40

its life , because endorphin masks

20:42

pain with a euphoric feeling for

20:45

about 15 minutes . And it evolved

20:47

for emergencies only . It did

20:49

not evolve for us to inflict

20:52

pain on ourselves , to feel good . And

20:54

yet this cult of exercise

20:57

has grown up as

21:00

if this is the

21:02

path to happiness . And

21:04

I always explain like this endorphin

21:07

high people should know or runners high

21:09

is in fact only stimulated

21:11

if you actually exercise to the point

21:14

of pain . And I explain

21:16

to people . The reason this works in

21:18

the short run is there's

21:21

this thing . I call it distraction . So

21:24

in the animal world , animals

21:26

only get upset about a threat

21:28

when the threat is actually there , but

21:30

the big human cortex can create

21:33

threatened perceptions all

21:35

the time . So anything

21:37

that disrupts our perceived

21:40

threat relieves the cortisol . So

21:43

runners high is an effective

21:45

way of disrupting threatened thoughts , and

21:49

every time it works it

21:51

builds the pathway for you to expect

21:53

it to work . So a simple

21:55

example would be if you have a child who's

21:57

upset about something and they play a video game that

22:01

disrupts the perceived threat and then they

22:03

want to play the video again . So

22:06

anything you do that works

22:08

, you want to do it again . So

22:10

that's one way that running

22:12

works , or any kind of exercise to the point of pain . Another

22:16

is the serotonin

22:19

of feeling superior about your athletic ability

22:21

, another

22:24

is the dopamine of having

22:26

an athletic goal that you move toward , and

22:30

another is the oxytocin

22:32

of having heard through

22:35

your exercise regimen . So

22:37

the bottom line is that there are thousands

22:40

of ways to stimulate these chemicals , but

22:43

as soon as you find one that works

22:45

, you believe that that is the way . And

22:49

, needless to say , exercise is better

22:51

than if you do it through opening a bottle of wine

22:53

. You

22:55

could check all those boxes and

22:57

then you're stuck with that . So

23:01

we really need to know about our own operating system

23:03

so that we know that we have a lot of choices

23:07

rather than being stuck with anyone

23:09

.

23:09

I love it . And again , maybe

23:12

just oversharing my personal experience

23:14

, maybe I should have read your book , although

23:16

I think it wasn't written when I

23:18

was more than a decade younger

23:20

, because then I wouldn't over train . Because literally

23:22

I think when you become an athlete and

23:24

this ties into one of the questions I've been thinking

23:26

about , that I've been reading your book you

23:29

really become addicted to this endorphin

23:31

, right . It's just that feeling of being

23:34

totally tired and your brain

23:37

gets silent . And when I talk to other

23:39

athletes we just love it . And

23:41

I only get to that feeling

23:43

through extreme exercise

23:45

. And obviously now it's kind of declining

23:47

because I don't train as much as I have

23:49

in the past . But when I was in

23:51

my elite athletic capabilities

23:53

in kind of the early 20s

23:56

, I've literally tore

23:58

myself apart through

24:00

exercising because I was in some

24:02

difficult situations where

24:04

I couldn't compete and

24:06

so the way I learned to deal with it

24:09

, I just added extra

24:11

two , three hours of exercise to the

24:13

day because I thought I just need

24:15

to train that much harder and we did

24:17

that exercise kind of blocked my brain

24:19

from thinking about it , so I had something

24:21

to do and then you feel so tired

24:23

that you literally shut your brain down

24:26

. But obviously this

24:28

is not the way to solve things , because if you

24:30

do , you really get addicted

24:32

to it and you tear yourself apart

24:34

. So I think there's so important , I

24:37

think , for anyone who's an athlete and listening

24:39

are you dealing with your emotions

24:41

in the right way and

24:44

would love your kind of opinion and feedback

24:46

on it . I'm wondering do

24:49

we as humans , based

24:51

on our upbringing and experiences

24:53

, have a tendency

24:55

to more seek one of

24:57

the happy chemicals versus the other ?

25:00

I think we need all of them , we

25:02

seek all of them , we want all of them . Some

25:05

people think that they have

25:07

more of a tendency to seek

25:09

one because it worked for them

25:11

in the past , and other people may

25:13

think they have more of a tendency for that

25:15

. But let me give you an example

25:17

with your exercising , once

25:20

you have that exhaustion that shuts

25:23

down your mind , you don't

25:25

realize it , but you consciously gave

25:27

yourself permission Now

25:29

I've done enough , so

25:31

I can relax Until

25:34

you're totally wiped out . You

25:36

didn't give yourself permission to stop

25:39

. Why is that ? Because in

25:41

some time in your past someone

25:43

attacked you for not doing

25:45

enough , so you had to wear

25:48

yourself out in order to say okay

25:50

, now I'm allowed to relax without

25:52

anticipating that

25:54

attack . So it's the anticipation

25:57

of the attack for not having done enough

25:59

that was really created

26:01

in your own neural pathways because of

26:03

that peak neuroplasticity

26:05

of you . So that's so important to know that

26:08

when we're born we're wired by early

26:10

experiences . We're not wired by genetic blueprint

26:12

either . We're wired by our own experiences

26:15

and then we just keep replaying them . The

26:17

other thing just want to use the word habituation

26:20

, because the word addiction

26:23

has now gotten so many legalized

26:26

and cultural meanings . But

26:28

our brain is always habituating

26:30

to whatever reward we have . So

26:33

if I have the best pizza

26:35

my whole life and I'm like , oh my

26:37

God , this is so good , it's the best pizza I

26:39

ever had , the second time I

26:42

have it it's not the best pizza

26:44

I ever had before , because

26:46

I've already had it . So this

26:48

is that sort of treadmill

26:51

feeling that we always feel like we

26:53

got to find something better and better . That's

26:56

the dopamine part . And again

26:58

, it's not the world's fault . It's just a

27:00

natural thing , because our ancestors

27:03

never knew where their next meal was

27:05

coming from . They had to constantly

27:07

seek to survive . So we've

27:09

inherited a brain that's constantly

27:11

seeking .

27:12

Yeah , I love it and I can totally see

27:14

the positives and negatives of that

27:17

right , Because , positives , that helps us

27:19

advance as a humanity to always

27:21

grow and achieve the next thing

27:23

. You have technological innovation and ambitious

27:25

people like Elon Musk who is

27:27

trying to create rockets

27:30

to be this adventurous , kind and

27:32

survive in a multi-planetary species

27:35

. But I think knowing

27:37

when to use it and

27:39

are you doing it just for the

27:41

sake of some other negative

27:44

motivations to Sarah experiences

27:46

which makes me wonder you could be a

27:48

therapist actually like writing the books . And

27:50

just going back to your comment , with

27:52

your short description , it feel like

27:54

it accurately described my childhood , Growing

27:56

up in the tough love mentality

27:59

which I'm sure many of us had . I

28:01

wonder how much it triggered some of these

28:03

pathways that you constantly have

28:05

to keep pushing . And so , knowing

28:07

when to rewire and create new neural

28:09

pathways as we grow through life

28:12

, I think it's very important

28:14

. So maybe , diving into the cortisol

28:16

, tell us a little bit more about the cortisol

28:19

and the effects of that Sure

28:21

.

28:22

So most people have probably heard

28:24

the idea that cortisol is

28:26

the feeling of being chased

28:28

by a predator , and fight

28:30

or flight is the common expression . And

28:33

although we always hear about

28:35

it in a negative context , it's important

28:37

to understand that it exists for

28:40

a reason . So in the modern world

28:42

we're not necessarily

28:44

running from predators , but

28:46

you don't walk into the street and

28:48

get run over by a car because

28:51

you have developed these

28:53

cortisol pathways when you were young

28:55

. So we need them to

28:58

deal realistically with the world

29:00

. And if you have

29:02

this like I can do anything I

29:05

shouldn't not fear anything

29:08

then maybe something

29:10

bad's going to happen to you . So we're all

29:12

constantly trying to evaluate

29:14

the facts of what really is

29:16

safe and what really is not safe

29:19

, but we evaluate them in the context

29:21

of our own stored experience . But

29:23

what we don't know is that our early

29:26

experience builds really

29:28

big pathways in our brain and

29:30

cortisol builds even bigger pathways

29:33

than happy chemicals . So

29:35

we're all seeing the world through the lens

29:37

of bad stuff that happened to us when

29:39

we were young , and those

29:41

big neural pathways turn on

29:43

the cortisol real fast when you

29:46

see anything related and when I

29:48

say related , I don't mean related

29:50

in this logical , conscious

29:52

way , but it's like anything

29:55

that was going on in a bad

29:57

moment in your youth got

29:59

connected . So a simplistic

30:02

example is like if a horse is beaten

30:04

by someone with a big hat , then

30:06

they fear people with big hats . So

30:09

you turn on your cortisol

30:11

when you see anything linked to

30:13

that bad moment in your past and

30:15

then , once it turns on , it

30:18

makes you feel bad for about

30:20

an hour . It has a half life of 20

30:22

minutes and its job is

30:25

to get you to look for evidence

30:27

of threat so that you can escape

30:29

it . So for that 20

30:31

, 40 minutes an hour you're

30:33

only looking for bad stuff . So

30:36

what I focus on is like

30:38

do something fun for 20

30:41

, 40 minutes , because if you

30:43

do your problem solving when cortisol

30:45

is flowing , you're only going to see the

30:47

downside of every possible solution

30:50

.

30:51

I love it and especially some of your

30:54

chapters , and writing

30:56

about cortisol made me think about so many things

30:58

. One I believe

31:00

you've heard of or read perhaps

31:02

the Thinking Fast and Slow book by

31:04

Daniel Kahneman , where he describes

31:07

for the System 1 and 2 , which is one of my

31:09

favorite books as well . But I actually

31:11

think your book made

31:13

me understand it on a deeper

31:16

level and even

31:18

the differences between the System 1

31:20

versus System 2 and

31:22

the being fear driven , which was

31:24

really fascinating to me and it

31:26

seems like correct me if I'm wrong

31:28

here by the way I understood it and even reading your

31:31

book made me realize deeper

31:33

understanding of is just our basic

31:35

survival brain . We

31:38

don't want to have fear or experience

31:40

fear or threat , and so

31:42

that typically becomes the most

31:44

dominant driver of avoiding

31:47

fear and avoiding

31:50

cortisol , because that's

31:52

where our brain thinks

31:55

actually evolutionally how we survived

31:57

. Is that accurate ? Anything you

31:59

would want to add ? Yeah ?

32:01

I want to add the word relief . So our

32:03

real drive is to relieve cortisol

32:05

. So , for example , when a gazelle is

32:07

hungry , hunger is cortisol

32:10

, so eating relieves the cortisol

32:12

. But then if you're hungry and you smell

32:14

a predator , then the predator is

32:16

even bigger cortisol . So then you

32:18

want to run to relieve the

32:20

predator threat feeling . But

32:23

then you want to eat to relieve the hunger

32:25

feeling . So a newborn baby

32:27

cries and it feels

32:30

cortisol and one of our only

32:32

inboard responses is to cry in

32:34

response to cortisol . Because a newborn

32:36

baby doesn't know how to relieve

32:38

its threat , it doesn't have any skills . But

32:41

then we go through life saying , okay , what

32:43

can I do to relieve that bad feeling ? And

32:45

we mostly fall back on those early

32:47

neural pathways and it's fascinating

32:50

to know that we build really big pathways

32:52

in puberty . So whatever

32:54

relieved your cortisol and puberty

32:56

is pretty much what's running your life

32:58

today . So everyone can

33:01

sort of ponder what

33:03

they did to relieve their cortisol

33:05

when they were young . And then it's

33:07

like , oh , so that's why I feel

33:09

like if I don't do this one thing

33:12

, then something terrible

33:14

will happen , because that's what cortisol

33:16

is . Something terrible will happen

33:19

and then you just relieve it in the

33:21

ways that you already know , but

33:23

once again we need to say oh well , there's thousands

33:25

of ways to relieve cortisol and

33:28

I'm just doing the one I know .

33:31

I wrote the question down here to reflect

33:33

on , I want to repeat it what relieved

33:35

your cortisol when you were young

33:37

? I think that's a really important one to

33:40

reflect on and I will ponder

33:42

about . But diving

33:44

a little bit deeper into the cortisol and this

33:46

was so fascinating to me when I

33:48

read your book was

33:51

even reflecting on

33:53

the evolutionary perspective

33:55

of us humans and obviously , being

33:58

now and living in 2023

34:00

, it's a way , safer space

34:02

. When it comes to just physical

34:04

survival , you mentioned that there's

34:07

not really big threats . Obviously , we went through COVID

34:10

recently , but even still , if

34:12

we take it into perspective of humanity , pandemics

34:14

have been here forever . We just

34:16

haven't been exposed to them perhaps

34:19

as much .

34:19

Well , and also the death rate on this

34:21

pandemic was so much

34:24

lower than in the past .

34:25

In the past . Yeah , so overall I think

34:27

our threat to our physical bodies

34:30

and self has drastically

34:32

declined ever since the

34:34

existence of our humanity , to

34:37

put it into perspective . Yes , and

34:39

for that reason , because the

34:41

way our brain evolves , we

34:45

tend to be way more sensitive

34:47

to cortisol through social

34:50

impacts . That's sort of what

34:52

I read or understood from your book

34:54

and that total makes sense

34:57

now to me because I reflected on the younger

34:59

generation that has grown

35:01

up in relatively safe space physically

35:03

, to where we're not really dying from regular

35:06

illness . There's pharmacy

35:08

and so many scientific advancements

35:11

through giving the right vaccines

35:14

or antibiotics , et cetera

35:16

. But it becomes that perhaps

35:19

the social media thing and

35:21

losing face and not having maybe

35:23

the oxytocin from the social

35:25

environments , that is

35:28

way more powerful now

35:30

in the younger generation than

35:32

perhaps if I reflect on my

35:35

grandma , which maybe she

35:37

didn't have social networks

35:39

back then . But I look at these generations

35:41

, it seems like the older people

35:44

, like my grandma , are just so much more mentally

35:47

resilient and I wonder

35:49

if it was just because the way they wired , because

35:51

again , the illness was so much more prevalent

35:53

still at that time . And

35:55

so how do you look at it ? Is that accurate

35:58

?

35:58

Yeah , well , for most of human history , hunger

36:01

was a constant threat . So

36:03

you didn't get too upset about not being

36:05

invited to a party or somebody's

36:08

bonus was bigger than yours if you

36:10

didn't have enough food and didn't

36:12

know what you were gonna eat tomorrow and had to

36:14

tell your children that you didn't have

36:16

food . And then war

36:18

was so common , like people

36:21

don't realize it because they look

36:23

at the news and they see a war and they think

36:25

, oh , we have war , yeah , but like war was in

36:27

every town in the past , everybody

36:30

was like being invaded by somebody

36:33

had a realistic threat . So

36:35

then we have inherited

36:37

this system that's monitoring

36:39

threat . But when there's no real

36:42

immediate threat , it invents

36:44

threats that are further away

36:46

or more subtle . So that's

36:49

one whole part of it . We have this

36:51

real huge threat detection system

36:53

that's looking for threats . The other

36:55

part of it is that the younger

36:57

generation has been maybe

37:00

with good intentions has been

37:02

taught to be so focused

37:05

on managing their bad

37:07

feelings that first

37:09

they disease-ify them , they

37:12

focus on them , which increases

37:14

them , and then , instead

37:16

of being taught

37:18

to manage their bad feelings , they're

37:21

taught to expect society to

37:23

manage their feelings for them , either

37:25

by providing some kind of fix

37:27

or by blaming

37:29

society for causing them , and

37:31

that's the subject of my new book that's coming

37:34

out in January .

37:35

Oh my gosh , I kind of wait to read it and

37:37

maybe we can have another podcast about

37:39

it . That's very interesting . Thank you , yeah

37:42

, even just observing , obviously , from what's happening

37:44

in the world and the burnout culture

37:47

and overworking and

37:49

psychological safety , I've

37:51

been thinking about this topic so deeply

37:53

and read many articles , so I

37:56

can't wait to see what you're gonna

37:58

write .

37:58

By the way , the book is written not for

38:01

people like you , who already get it , though

38:03

, so you could look at it from

38:05

the perspective of how you would explain

38:07

this to a less resilient person

38:09

.

38:10

I always find out writing the books that make you

38:12

think from another person's perspective . I

38:14

find them really interesting . That's when I

38:16

learned the most . But , going back

38:18

, I have so many topics trying to prioritize what

38:20

I wanna dive into . I

38:23

think there's definitely two things I wanna touch on

38:25

, and maybe the one is the

38:27

vicious cycle of happiness , which

38:29

we actually talk a little bit about . Maybe I've

38:31

shared my example of exercising

38:33

in the endorphins , but

38:36

what would you wanna

38:38

share with listeners ? How to think

38:40

about it and avoid

38:43

it , or sometimes even the importance of cortisol

38:45

, because it's actually important . As

38:48

you write , there's benefits of not

38:50

wanting to avoid it at all costs .

38:53

So vicious cycle is the idea that

38:55

something that makes you feel good

38:58

in the long run builds a neural

39:00

pathway and then the next time you feel

39:02

bad , that comes

39:05

to mind because electricity

39:07

in the brain flows to the path

39:09

of least resistance . It just flows like

39:11

water in a storm . So you didn't

39:14

consciously think , oh

39:16

, I'm going to make myself feel better

39:18

by opening a bottle of wine or whatever

39:20

that choice a person makes . It's just , it

39:23

works to your brain

39:25

because it has worked in the past . So

39:28

to share a personal example for me so

39:30

in my teen years my distractor

39:33

of choice was travel . So

39:35

I got this idea that

39:38

going to another country

39:40

was the be all and end all . And

39:42

it's fascinating when you think

39:45

of like how this got built in my head

39:47

. So first I had a family

39:49

that hardly did anything , hardly

39:51

left home , was very fearful , and

39:53

then , out of the blue , my father got

39:55

some free trips offered to him

39:58

and then he started bringing

40:00

us along on the free trips . And

40:02

then those free trips involved

40:05

to make the story short , involved some

40:07

very serious disappointments

40:09

from my perspective , from my teenage

40:11

perspective . So I was like I'm

40:14

going to earn my own money and make

40:16

my own trips . And I did

40:18

. I earned a dollar and 60 cents an hour

40:20

and I bought

40:22

myself a ticket to Europe . And when

40:24

I was 17 , alone

40:26

and I did it , and so

40:29

that was such a big relief

40:31

and neural pathway

40:34

that said I

40:36

can do this . But then whenever I

40:38

had a problem , I just had

40:40

to go on another trip , so

40:42

you could see that anything has

40:45

its own repetitiveness

40:47

. And then , of course , going to Europe

40:49

, I habituated to that . That wasn't enough

40:51

of a high anymore , so then I had

40:53

to go somewhere else and somewhere else .

40:55

Mm-hmm , I love that . That's

40:57

interesting and also made me think about effort

40:59

. Just to share my fun new habit

41:02

is cold plunging

41:04

and I've been cold plunging now for

41:06

about one and a half months and

41:08

I love that feeling when you do

41:10

it for the first week , when you

41:12

get out of the cold plunge

41:15

it's literally your body so excited

41:17

you survived . Like I've never

41:19

had such a high feeling of happiness

41:21

, like there were just very few moments in my life

41:23

where I just felt so ready and thrilled

41:26

and excited to conquer my day

41:28

. But now , the more I do it

41:30

, the more I'm like I

41:33

miss the feeling . So it's just funny to

41:35

say that . Habituation yes

41:37

, it's amazing how our bodies are

41:39

, I guess , adaptable , which is good

41:41

. That's how we survive right In all fronts

41:44

, even through a methodic experience

41:46

. You train and whatever you did a

41:49

month ago , it becomes easier month

41:51

later when you're training harder and you

41:53

improve your skills . But there's

41:55

also some part of it where you wish just

41:58

that feeling of happiness state and

42:01

so it's funny how you have to continue

42:03

to sometimes push that envelope

42:05

and you have tips in your

42:08

book on how to continue

42:10

to have it , but in a different

42:12

way . So you want to share a little bit

42:14

with people , maybe what's the way of

42:16

creating these feelings of happiness

42:19

? And it seems like when you're reading

42:21

it it's pushing yourself out

42:23

of a comfort zone and almost trying to

42:26

do the opposite thing .

42:27

What you have done before Is that accurate

42:30

, yeah , but not just any opposite

42:32

, but an opposite that will wire

42:34

in positive expectations

42:37

, because positive expectations

42:39

are what trigger your happy chemicals . And

42:41

if you just force yourself to do

42:43

something you hate and then you

42:46

just fill your whole life with things

42:48

you hate , then you're going

42:50

to have negative expectations . So

42:54

we all have a limited amount of energy

42:56

, and when your energy

42:58

is low , that allows cortisol

43:00

to come more easily , because it

43:03

takes a lot of energy to steer

43:05

the electricity in your brain out

43:08

of those big old pathways into

43:10

new pathways . That's the most energy

43:13

consuming thing . So when

43:15

you're tired you're more likely to go into

43:17

those old negative thoughts of your

43:19

past . So excuse me for

43:22

saying the way I view this cold plunge

43:24

is that it's using up

43:26

a huge amount of your energy

43:28

because the cold is very

43:30

energy intensive . So then you

43:32

have left later on , so you're more likely

43:35

then to be tired at the end of the day

43:37

. So how are you going to deal with that ? Maybe you

43:39

think , oh , I got to do a longer cold plunge

43:41

tomorrow . No , no , no .

43:43

I did it longer today just to try

43:45

if I get the high . Actually , that's what I was wondering

43:47

how many minutes can I stay in to

43:49

see if I get the feeling again ?

43:51

Oh , that's so funny . I always use that

43:54

example from the perspective of a hot

43:56

tub . I love a hot tub

43:58

. Of course it's not less athletic

44:00

than yours . But when you

44:02

go into a hot tub you get this

44:04

high because it's literal

44:06

pain on your skin . But

44:09

five minutes later you're still in

44:11

the hot tub , but your brain is racing

44:13

on some other thing and you don't even notice

44:15

it . Now I could make

44:18

new endorphin by making

44:20

the hot tub even hotter , but

44:22

that would be crazy stupid .

44:24

I consider that too , on the opposite side

44:26

, to see how low I can go with the cold

44:28

plunge .

44:29

So let's think of another solution

44:32

. It's late in the day

44:34

and I'm feeling bad and

44:37

I still can think of 10 more

44:39

tasks that I have to do , including

44:42

one task that really

44:44

bothers me . So in the

44:46

interest of time , I'm just going to give a very simplistic

44:49

solution . So the task that

44:51

really bothers you first look

44:53

at the core pattern of why does

44:55

it bother you and see how that

44:58

matches a core pattern from your past

45:00

. So I'm upset about

45:02

this task because it reminds me of

45:05

this feeling that I always

45:07

had when I was young . And from

45:09

the serotonin perspective , anything

45:12

that puts you in the one down position

45:14

is going to feel like a survival

45:17

threat , even though you know consciously

45:19

it's not a survival threat . So

45:21

let's just call it status anxiety

45:23

. So we all have this whenever

45:26

you're having a one up position

45:28

, you fear losing it . So

45:30

that's often a big

45:32

component of the tasks

45:34

that bother us Anything

45:36

that blocks your dopamine , because I'm so

45:39

excited about moving toward a goal but

45:41

the slightest obstacle then

45:44

takes like oh no , I'm

45:46

not going to be able to move toward a goal . That

45:48

threatens my dopamine , so that

45:50

feels like a survival threat . Disappointment

45:54

feels like a survival threat . I use the example

45:56

that if a lion is running

45:58

after a gazelle and it's so close

46:01

but the gazelle starts to get away

46:03

at some point , the lion

46:05

needs to give up , because if it wastes

46:08

all its energy on a gazelle that

46:10

it can't catch , then it will use

46:12

up its reserved tank of energy and

46:14

never eat . So the

46:17

giving up feels worse

46:20

than the hunger , because

46:22

that gets the lion to stop

46:24

chasing that gazelle and

46:26

find a better prospect . So

46:28

we all face disappointment sometimes

46:31

and that feels awful . So these

46:33

are all these possible reasons , but

46:35

the big one at the end of the day is that

46:37

I've already gotten enough done

46:39

, and if I can never tell

46:42

myself that I've done enough

46:44

and I try to tackle

46:47

a new gazelle when my reserved

46:49

tank of energy is empty , then

46:52

I'm just going to drive myself nuts . So

46:54

we need to have rewards

46:57

that we give ourselves to

46:59

restore and replenish , and

47:02

if we only have unhealthy

47:04

rewards , then

47:06

we're going to be in a bad way

47:08

. So we need to create this list

47:11

of . I call it like filling your

47:13

pantry with healthy snacks

47:16

. If you don't have any healthy snacks

47:18

, then you only go for unhealthy snacks . So

47:20

what are some alternative

47:22

rewards , other than food , that you

47:24

can give yourself so that you

47:27

can replenish and rebuild

47:29

your energy . So I use a simple example

47:31

of listening to comedy or

47:34

watching Netflix for 10 minutes

47:36

. So just in the interest of

47:38

time , very simplistic examples

47:40

.

47:41

Yeah , I love it . Actually , one of the

47:43

kind of good habits we've been having now

47:45

lately is , before we go too bad

47:47

, find some fun video

47:50

, even on YouTube , and just laugh . It's

47:52

a really nice way to end

47:54

your day , so I love your

47:56

examples . One

47:58

thing that your comment also made me think

48:00

about is the expectations , and

48:03

I feel that is so big in

48:05

life as well as my

48:08

corporate world and sports

48:10

, for that matter . So I always

48:12

need to achieve the expectations of

48:14

what people expect from you

48:16

. It's written or unwritten , or

48:18

the ones that we put on ourselves

48:20

, and kind of the disappointments that

48:23

we may have when

48:25

we don't meet those expectations . So

48:27

maybe share a little bit more about that

48:29

, because I feel like that's part of everyone's

48:31

life , really . Yeah .

48:33

So those expectations it's useful to think about

48:35

from a dopamine perspective is

48:38

I have to reach the next big

48:40

thing in order to spark my

48:42

dopamine and when I'm doing

48:44

that , every step along the

48:46

way gives me more dopamine . So that

48:49

is natural and normal and healthy

48:51

because our ancestors , if you

48:53

think about it , they were so tired

48:55

and they finally found food , but

48:58

then they had to find water , and then they

49:00

had to find firewood , and then

49:02

they had to find protein rather than

49:04

just getting enough calories . So

49:06

there was always another thing Dopamine

49:08

is what gave us the energy to keep

49:10

going and to keep trying , even when

49:12

we were tired . So it's

49:14

useful to know that that is a natural

49:17

, normal thing . But if you overdo

49:20

it , because you're running from

49:22

cortisol , because the minute

49:24

you stop and rest , all

49:26

these bad thoughts from your past

49:28

come in , which is very individual

49:31

For one person . It's the bad thought of

49:33

you haven't done enough and some

49:35

disaster is going to happen , or some

49:38

social aspect of it that you

49:40

think about other people's disaster

49:42

or other people being angry at you for not

49:44

having done enough . So you

49:47

have to first be conscious that these

49:49

negative thoughts are created by you

49:51

and that they're real

49:54

physical pathways in your brain

49:56

that electricity is flowing into

49:58

, that's triggering a chemical that

50:00

creates a full body bad feeling

50:02

. So on the one hand , it's really

50:05

there , but on the other hand , it's not

50:07

a real threat in the world around

50:09

you and you have power over

50:11

it . But the only power you have

50:14

is to create a new pathway

50:16

, which is a teeny little neural

50:18

pathway . And how do you

50:20

get your electricity to go into

50:23

a teeny little neural pathway

50:25

when you're tired ? And that's

50:27

the real challenge of life that

50:29

when you're tired , you just flow

50:32

into your autopilot , which

50:34

is all that bad habits . And

50:37

so our power is

50:39

rather limited , and

50:41

yet we do have this power . So

50:44

that's what we need to build on . And

50:46

all of the verbal chatter that

50:48

you use to explain oh

50:50

, I got to do this , I got to do that , I got to do

50:53

that that's just your verbal

50:55

brain trying to figure out what

50:57

am I so upset about ? And

50:59

it's using the whatever explanation

51:02

you've used in your past .

51:04

One other thing I wanted to go back to , when

51:07

you were sharing the example of the

51:09

lion hunting its

51:11

potential meal is

51:13

you mentioned that sometimes

51:16

the hunger doesn't

51:19

feel as bad as

51:21

losing the hunt or

51:23

kind of persuading with the hunt of the

51:25

prey , which made me think about

51:28

I don't know if you know any , do you can

51:30

her book quit ? And she explains

51:32

why we don't often

51:34

choose the option to quit and

51:37

we're less likely to quit on

51:40

time , because the more we're losing

51:42

, the more committed we

51:44

get to the losing cause

51:46

. So I actually thought that your book

51:49

explained the behavior

51:51

of why it is so hard for

51:53

us to know when to stop and

51:56

when to stop on time , because

51:58

the more we get into this pursuit

52:01

, the chemicals

52:03

pretty much drive us to continue on

52:05

that path , even though it may not be the

52:07

best path to continue to pursue

52:10

.

52:10

Yes , that's fascinating , Although

52:13

I understand in the context of

52:15

that book . That's true , but some

52:17

people give up too easily . So , I

52:19

also have to put it in that context

52:21

. Many people have gotten the idea

52:23

that things should come easily and

52:25

then they say I've already done enough and

52:28

I haven't gotten the reward . That's so unfair

52:30

, I'm going to stop and quit because

52:32

everything's unfair . So it's

52:34

really hard to balance between these two

52:37

. So first to say , oh

52:39

, how can we feel positive

52:41

in this world where nothing is

52:43

predictable , so rewards are

52:45

not predictable ? There's nothing

52:47

wrong with that , it's absolutely normal . So

52:49

to think that my hunter-gatherer

52:51

ancestors thought that maybe

52:53

they would find food if they climbed over

52:55

this mountain . But then they climbed over

52:58

the mountain and there was no food . So

53:00

they had this survival threat , feeling

53:02

like , oh my God , now we've got to really find

53:04

food fast . So that's the operating

53:07

system we've inherited and it creates

53:09

a sense of urgency . Now

53:11

cost-benefit analysis

53:14

is going on all the time

53:16

and it helps

53:18

to think that animals are

53:20

doing this cost-benefit analysis

53:22

all the time , like if a monkey

53:24

is looking for fruit and it's like

53:26

, well , maybe I climb up

53:28

high in this tree and it's a lot of effort

53:31

, and then when I get there , the

53:33

fruit is rotten or a bigger

53:36

monkey comes along and takes the fruit

53:38

, or the branch is not strong

53:40

enough to support my weight . So

53:42

nothing comes easily , and

53:45

when you're trained to think things should come more

53:47

easily than they do , then

53:49

that leads to a lot of frustration . Now

53:52

, even when you have realistic

53:54

expectations , you really try really

53:56

hard and then you invest

53:59

so much in something and you don't

54:01

want to give up . Now , when's

54:03

the right moment to give up ? It's

54:06

so hard to know . So Two

54:09

things about this . One is disappointment

54:12

is a huge release

54:14

of cortisol because , as you said , disappointment

54:17

has to feel really bad

54:20

in order to get you to give up , because

54:22

you already have positive expectations

54:25

. The only way that you give up is if the

54:27

negative expectations are even worse

54:29

. That's why disappointment feels so

54:31

bad . Then a big search of cortisol builds

54:34

a big cortisol pathway . It's a

54:36

now you're seeing the world

54:38

through the lens of all

54:41

of your past disappointments , because

54:43

they're the biggest cortisol pathways

54:46

. The big thing I really want to mention is also

54:48

that we personalize

54:51

this in a social way

54:53

, because pleasing

54:55

your boss is the

54:57

lens that many people have created

55:00

through this , rather

55:02

than just can I get this

55:04

goal . If the goal is getting

55:06

a promotion and you think you have to please

55:09

your boss to get the promotion

55:11

, all that energy of running after the

55:13

gazelle , rather than just being

55:16

the pure physics of my body , is

55:18

my thought about what is my boss

55:20

thinking about me ? That's

55:23

the lens that drives you crazy

55:25

in the future , because you never can really

55:27

make valid predictions

55:29

about your pleasing of other

55:32

people . What really got

55:34

me at peace about this ? Remember

55:36

I said for a few years I read all these monkey

55:38

studies . The big one is a

55:41

monkey is grooming another

55:43

monkey in order to promote

55:45

its own survival . The monkey

55:48

would like to get another grooming in return

55:50

, but often it does not get

55:52

a grooming in return

55:54

. It keeps investing in that relationship

55:57

, hoping that when

56:00

mating season comes

56:02

that the other monkey will

56:04

reciprocate in

56:06

some way that promotes the

56:08

survival of that monkey's genes

56:10

. Stacks of books

56:13

have been written about this primate

56:16

analysis of reciprocation

56:19

. When you see that through a monkey's

56:21

eyes , you're like oh so I'm

56:24

just like everybody else , just giving

56:26

a grooming and trying to get a grooming

56:28

in return .

56:31

Yeah , and thank you for mentioning

56:33

that , because that was another thought I've been having

56:35

as I've been reading your book and I

56:37

would like to dive a little bit , if you're open to it

56:39

, to the differences of sex

56:42

, which seems to be a taboo thing , but

56:44

I still think there's , on average

56:46

, some differences between men

56:48

and women , and especially the pleasing

56:51

one is one that my

56:53

partner thinks that I'm way more

56:55

pleasing , obviously , than him , which I agree

56:57

. I think he's on the opposite side of the spectrum

57:00

. So there's wide differences . But

57:02

even thinking about it from business and corporate world

57:04

, I often find that my girlfriends

57:07

or the women group seem

57:09

to be more likely to fall into

57:11

this kind of pleasing mentality

57:14

and I wonder if it's again from evolutionary

57:16

way versus a little bit of

57:18

on average , the

57:20

male being more aggressive and maybe

57:23

searching the hierarchy and dominance . I

57:25

wonder if some of these

57:27

happy chemicals

57:29

even on a sex level

57:32

we tend to lean more

57:34

towards one versus the other or maybe

57:36

the default behavior , and again , it may

57:38

be , maybe just how we grew

57:40

up and what we saw socially acceptable

57:42

and that's how I

57:44

guess we created this . Newer pathways . Anything

57:47

you want to comment , loreta , from your

57:49

research or thoughts you want

57:51

to share on that ?

57:53

Yes , but because there's

57:56

so much , so I just put my reading

57:58

list in the chat , because

58:00

there's so much on this and all of my books

58:02

touch on it too . So first

58:04

, yes and no . And also every book

58:06

on evolutionary biology and evolutionary

58:09

psychology explains this . So

58:11

a lot of it is learned and

58:14

there's a lot of nastiness

58:16

among females as well

58:18

as males . Like when you hear about males fighting

58:21

the dominance hierarchy , but females

58:23

do it in their own way and when you read

58:26

the female ways they're like , oh yeah , that's really

58:28

familiar and they work

58:30

. The female way helps to promote

58:32

the survival of the females genes and

58:34

the male way helps to promote the

58:37

survival of male genes . Now I

58:39

have to say that I happen to be less

58:41

of a pleaser and I had

58:44

a therapist tell me that

58:46

I realized that I couldn't please my mother

58:48

, so I just gave up on trying to ever

58:50

please anybody , whereas my

58:53

husband is sort of a super

58:55

pleaser . So but

58:57

I agree that that's not typical

58:59

and that there are somewhat patterns

59:01

, but the patterns that really helped

59:03

me with generalized

59:05

male and female behavior is hunting

59:08

versus gathering . So

59:10

hunting is you only

59:12

focus on one thing and you ignore

59:15

everything else , and if you do

59:17

that , you succeed . So ignoring

59:19

everything else in the pursuit of one thing

59:21

is a real , valid survival

59:23

skill . Now , gathering

59:26

, which is typically the

59:28

female skill

59:30

, rather than hunting , is

59:32

the opposite of hunting in the sense

59:34

of I'm open to everything

59:36

and I don't have a specific

59:39

expectation of what I'm looking

59:41

for . I'm just like maybe

59:43

that would be good , would that be good ? Would that be good ? You

59:45

know you're looking and so you're

59:48

not screening out , you're not

59:50

focusing on one thing . You

59:52

still have some expectations

59:55

of what would be good , what would not be good

59:57

, but and you have limited energy so

59:59

which berry bush do I

1:00:01

invest ? Which trail do

1:00:03

I think ? Maybe there's water there . Maybe there's water

1:00:05

there , but it's processing

1:00:07

more possibilities . But

1:00:10

then , like , once you're going toward that bush

1:00:12

, maybe you see a better berry bush .

1:00:14

So just to touch base on what you said is

1:00:18

the key to bigger happiness

1:00:20

. Also , try to minimize your expectations

1:00:23

and just look at more of

1:00:25

the opportunities , but really don't set your

1:00:27

expectations high more

1:00:29

. Go with exploratory mindset

1:00:32

and see

1:00:34

what best fits sort

1:00:37

of your definition of success

1:00:39

or where you want to head next .

1:00:41

Yes and no again . Yes , but

1:00:44

if we tell people here to have low

1:00:46

expectations , that doesn't sound very exciting

1:00:48

and that's not going to make anybody happy

1:00:50

. So first I call it realistic

1:00:53

expectations . So the expectations

1:00:56

have to be positive

1:00:58

in order to spark your

1:01:00

chemicals . Like a monkey is

1:01:02

not going to climb up a tree if it thinks

1:01:04

there's no fruit . But

1:01:06

if a monkey remembers

1:01:08

the best tree in its whole

1:01:10

life that has hundreds of

1:01:12

fruit and it says I'm not going to

1:01:14

climb any tree unless I see the best

1:01:17

tree of my whole life , then it's going to

1:01:19

starve to death . So it

1:01:21

has realistic expectations

1:01:23

because it's hungry . And

1:01:26

in the modern world people are not hungry

1:01:28

. So that makes it a little harder

1:01:30

to have realistic expectations

1:01:32

. And so to make

1:01:35

that link between realistic

1:01:37

expectations and positive expectations

1:01:39

is to say that

1:01:42

my dopamine is only

1:01:44

stimulated when I perceive

1:01:46

that I'm getting closer to

1:01:48

a reward . So my expectations

1:01:51

have to be realistic in order to

1:01:53

stimulate my dopamine . So

1:01:55

how can I lower my expectations

1:01:58

to the point where I actually

1:02:00

can reach them ? So it's like

1:02:02

if you can't climb Mount Everest

1:02:04

, find a hill that you can climb and

1:02:07

then , once you climb that , you get that

1:02:09

great feeling of dopamine , and then think about

1:02:11

the next hill .

1:02:12

I love that . So it's more of like a strategic

1:02:15

goal , setting to a point that's not too

1:02:18

high , but you know

1:02:20

, with some sort of confidence

1:02:22

, that you could achieve , and really it

1:02:24

seems like celebrating the small wins as

1:02:26

well than what you're sharing , which is

1:02:28

great , and one

1:02:30

of the things I also want to share . We're coming

1:02:32

to an end here , but creating

1:02:34

your own neural pathways

1:02:36

. So this is what you're pretty

1:02:39

much saying no matter what you have gone

1:02:41

through or have been born with , and

1:02:43

how your brain works now and

1:02:45

the pathways are created , you

1:02:47

always have the power to create

1:02:49

new ones , although you do

1:02:51

say the reality that it's so much

1:02:54

harder to create them in

1:02:56

our adulthood and so the

1:02:58

sooner we start , the better it is . So

1:03:00

what are some of the main tips

1:03:03

you want to share with listeners

1:03:05

? Anybody who's kind of listened to this conversation

1:03:07

hopefully have gone through some of

1:03:10

their audit of what makes them happy

1:03:12

or sad and

1:03:14

could reflect on the positive

1:03:16

and negative , perhaps habits and behaviors

1:03:19

they have . How could they then

1:03:21

create that's new neural pathways

1:03:23

to live a better

1:03:25

, happier life , whatever that means for them , and

1:03:28

create more fun things

1:03:30

for themselves in their life ? Sure

1:03:32

?

1:03:33

So we can build new neural pathways

1:03:35

in adulthood . But it takes a lot

1:03:37

of repetition . So I say that

1:03:39

it's like learning a foreign language

1:03:41

, that anybody can learn a foreign language

1:03:44

, but it takes so much repetition that most people

1:03:46

don't . So how do you get yourself

1:03:48

to do ? The repetition is small

1:03:51

rewards for small steps

1:03:53

a lot , and that's exactly

1:03:55

how animal training works . So if you

1:03:57

take an animal training class and you

1:04:00

think of your inner mammal in that

1:04:02

way that I can give myself

1:04:04

small rewards , find healthy rewards

1:04:06

, and all of my books teach you how

1:04:08

to develop healthy rewards and

1:04:11

then to do it often so that

1:04:13

you keep building that neural pathway

1:04:15

.

1:04:16

And , yeah , you have some great tips in

1:04:18

the book and guidance , so hopefully people

1:04:20

will check it out . And

1:04:23

so last couple of questions . Given

1:04:25

all that's happening in the world and there

1:04:27

is a lot we've talked about some of

1:04:29

the things that we're facing , even just the way

1:04:31

we've created these

1:04:33

neural pathways for ourselves through

1:04:35

our surrounding and upbringing what

1:04:38

would you want to inspire people to be doing

1:04:40

more for ourselves ?

1:04:42

Always focused on being aware

1:04:44

of the social comparisons

1:04:46

that you're making , because

1:04:48

that's the mammalian thing

1:04:50

. It's happening all the time . You

1:04:53

don't know you're doing it , so you're blaming

1:04:55

other people and then you're feeling judged

1:04:57

, you're feeling put down and

1:05:00

you don't know that you did the judging yourself

1:05:02

. So I learned so much from watching

1:05:04

nature videos and you see how

1:05:06

the constant social rivalry

1:05:08

among these monkeys in a

1:05:10

group and to say , oh , that's

1:05:13

what my animal brain is doing

1:05:15

, because the monkey , literally

1:05:17

, if it reaches for a fruit

1:05:19

near a bigger monkey , it's going to get bitten

1:05:21

, so it doesn't reach for a fruit

1:05:24

until it makes a social comparison

1:05:26

. And so every

1:05:28

time you're doing anything you're making social

1:05:30

comparison and you have to detect

1:05:33

that in yourself .

1:05:34

I love that and it actually made

1:05:36

me realize I've been observing my

1:05:38

dog playing with other dogs and

1:05:41

so when there's a toy that is in their

1:05:43

periphery , it seems like they have

1:05:45

this unwritten rule that when other

1:05:47

dogs can and cannot steal it , and

1:05:50

I've always been wondering how they decide

1:05:52

whether the toy is close

1:05:54

enough under the supervision of the other dog

1:05:57

or not . And you just

1:05:59

answered my question . I've been actually thinking

1:06:01

about it for a long time . That's so interesting

1:06:03

.

1:06:03

Well , that's amazing because you won't believe

1:06:05

this , but I'm a new grandparent and

1:06:08

so I'm writing about the exact same

1:06:10

thing with my little toddler grandson

1:06:12

, who goes into a playground

1:06:14

and is like having this radar

1:06:16

for this toys and always wants the

1:06:19

other one's toys . That's so funny , but

1:06:21

I'm not a dog person , so that's

1:06:23

hilarious .

1:06:25

Love it , and so where

1:06:27

can people best find you ? Again , I recommend

1:06:30

everyone to read your book . I'll add

1:06:32

links to it . I'll also add

1:06:34

links to the research you've

1:06:36

added here in the chat , your

1:06:39

reading and some of the other things on the Inner

1:06:41

Mammal Institute you had shared . But

1:06:44

anyone who's interested to dive deeper

1:06:46

, what's the best way for them to follow you ?

1:06:49

So go to my website , innermammalinstituteorg

1:06:53

innermammalinstituteorg

1:06:55

and I have every form of information

1:06:57

that you might like . So I have social

1:07:00

media . I have a YouTube channel , I

1:07:02

have a podcast , I have eight books

1:07:04

and blogs , but I

1:07:06

have a free five day happy chemical jump start

1:07:09

. You get on my mailing list and you

1:07:11

get one email a day for five days . That explains

1:07:13

each of the chemicals in a

1:07:15

very simple way .

1:07:17

Love it and I'll add all of those to

1:07:19

the episode notes . Thank you , do you ?

1:07:21

have a second for one little story . I

1:07:24

think you love this story . I just keep

1:07:26

thinking of it and didn't get it . So

1:07:29

there's a hundred mile

1:07:31

endurance race . There's probably a few

1:07:33

of them that you know about , but there's

1:07:35

one of them in California and my son lives right

1:07:37

near the finish line . So

1:07:40

he wanted to go with that and I was

1:07:42

visiting , so I'm going to this with him . So

1:07:45

you may know , but people probably

1:07:48

don't . So this people have 30

1:07:50

hours to finish this hundred

1:07:53

mile endurance race . So

1:07:55

I said to my son so you mean , they don't

1:07:57

sleep , they run all night . So

1:08:00

because his house is right near the finish

1:08:03

line , we're hearing a loudspeaker like every time

1:08:05

, every time somebody crosses the finish

1:08:07

line , they read

1:08:09

a little bit about them and everybody

1:08:11

cheers . Like to

1:08:14

me this sounds like the most miserable

1:08:16

thing , like because I really need my

1:08:18

sleep . So my son is like

1:08:20

really excited and when he goes

1:08:22

and he looks on their faces

1:08:25

, then they're finishing and he

1:08:27

sees ecstasy , whereas

1:08:29

I see like misery , like oh my

1:08:31

God , this person is going to have a heart attack . You

1:08:33

know , like if you force yourself to do this

1:08:36

, but maybe you're doing permanent damage

1:08:38

. So it's just funny how we really

1:08:40

project on to other people

1:08:42

like what feels good and we really

1:08:44

have to become aware of like

1:08:47

we have our common biology but then our

1:08:49

individual pathways .

1:08:51

Yeah , that is so true and I

1:08:54

can reflect on my past and even present

1:08:56

. I know one person who actually went to

1:08:58

hike the Grand Canyon rim to

1:09:00

rim to rim , and so you go

1:09:02

more than a day to do it , and

1:09:04

I'm actually awful person now

1:09:06

if I don't sleep . I need to get my sleep , but

1:09:10

I guess it's just an extra level

1:09:12

of people who train themselves

1:09:14

to handle pain and

1:09:17

figure out what this

1:09:19

dopamine and endorphins

1:09:22

they get from this sort of achievement

1:09:24

.

1:09:25

Yeah , well , and the first person who flew

1:09:27

a plane across from the US to Europe

1:09:29

. They didn't sleep all night and like

1:09:31

if they fell asleep they'd crash . So

1:09:33

yeah , this is part of human

1:09:36

potential , I guess .

1:09:38

Love it . Thank you so much , Dr Vruning

1:09:40

, for teaching us a bit more

1:09:42

about how to take charge of our own

1:09:44

emotions and figure out new pathways

1:09:47

to create a more fulfilling

1:09:50

life for ourselves . Thank you . If you enjoyed

1:09:52

this episode . I want to ask you to please

1:09:54

do two things that would help me greatly

1:09:57

. One , please consider

1:09:59

leaving a review on Apple Podcasts , spotify

1:10:01

or any other podcasting platform that

1:10:03

you use to listen to this episode . Two

1:10:06

, please share this podcast with a friend

1:10:09

who you believe might enjoy it

1:10:11

as well . It is a great way to

1:10:13

remind someone you care about them by sharing

1:10:15

a conversation they might be interested

1:10:17

in . Thank you for listening .