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the South, for working to

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unconditionally improve the lives of all,

1:02

and for the bold underwriting of every

1:04

gravy podcast, SFA thanks

1:06

our visionary Louisville, Kentucky friends, Pam

1:09

and Brooke Smith. He

1:11

exchanged letters with Gandhi. He was friends

1:13

with Henry Ford. His life

1:15

is the subject of an opera. At

1:17

the time of his death, his birthplace

1:19

was designated a national monument, an

1:22

honor at that point only

1:24

reserved for presidents. George Washington

1:26

Carver's life and legacy defies

1:28

easy explanation. And yet

1:30

today, he is remembered by many as the

1:33

peanut guy, perhaps with a side of

1:35

sweet potatoes. On today's episode

1:38

of Gravy, producers Ishawn Takur

1:40

and Katie Jane Fresnelius explore

1:42

an often overlooked part of

1:44

Carver's legacy. His embrace

1:47

of sustainable agriculture to help black

1:49

southern farmers. And what

1:51

that legacy means for farmers who look

1:53

to Carver today. His campaign

1:56

speaks to problems that will need to

1:58

solve to have a sustainable future. his

2:00

campaign revealed that you cannot separate social

2:03

and environmental justice. You'd

2:05

understand that if you're gonna have

2:07

successful conservation plans, they have to account for

2:09

the people living in

2:12

them. You're listening to Gravy.

2:14

Gravy. Gravy. Gravy.

2:17

A production of the Southern

2:19

Foodways Alliance, Gravy tells the stories of

2:22

the changing American South. I'm

2:24

Mary Beth Lasseter. I'm Melissa Hall.

2:27

Ishawn Takur reacquaints us with George

2:29

Washington Carver. There's

2:32

this moment in George Washington Carver's life

2:34

which elevated him to the heights of

2:37

American fame. Think movie

2:39

star famous. And it occurred,

2:41

of all places, at a congressional hearing.

2:44

In 1921 Carver appeared in front of a

2:47

House committee as an expert witness on behalf

2:49

of the peanut lobby who wanted to secure

2:51

a protective tariff on American peanuts. Here

2:54

was a well-known and respected black

2:56

academic facing questions by an all-white

2:58

crowd. He is greeted by racist

3:00

quips about things like watermelons and

3:03

the like. He's granted 10

3:05

minutes initially and begins doing

3:07

this talk. That's Mark Hersey. He's

3:09

an environmental historian and an associate

3:12

professor at Mississippi State University. He

3:14

authored the book My Work is That

3:17

of Conservation, an environmental biography of George

3:19

Washington Carver. At

3:21

the time of the hearing, Carver led

3:23

the agricultural department at the Tuskegee Institute,

3:26

now Tuskegee University, which is in

3:28

Macon County, Alabama. For

3:30

years Carver promoted dozens of different peanut

3:32

uses to encourage black farmers around Tuskegee

3:34

to plant the crop. As

3:36

he explained these uses to the committee,

3:38

Carver drew the representatives to wrap detention.

3:41

The committee gives him unlimited time and

3:43

at the end of the day they

3:46

give him a standing ovation, which is

3:48

pretty rare in Congress I would imagine.

3:50

This makes him a cultural

3:52

celebrity. Carver helped secure

3:54

the peanut tariff and seemingly overnight

3:57

Carver's fame became tied to the peanut. By

4:00

the time of his death, according to Mark, Carver

4:03

was the most admired and recognized black man

4:05

in all of America. But

4:09

for Mark, Carver's blinding association

4:11

with Peanuts obscures a much more

4:13

nuanced legacy. So,

4:15

to tell a story about who George Washington

4:18

Carver was, it's important to start

4:20

with who he was not. Because

4:22

the details that you, dear listener, might have

4:24

heard about Carver, about the life he might

4:27

have lived, get a little fuzzy. In

4:29

fact, he's often credited with accomplishments that

4:32

are more fiction than fact. George Washington

4:34

Carver is famous for inventing peanut butter,

4:36

which didn't happen. He didn't really create

4:38

any peanut products that were marketable or

4:41

useful going forward. Mark's scholarship argues

4:43

that Carver should be remembered as

4:46

a conservationist, who fought for

4:48

ideas that became the bedrock of

4:50

environmentalism and sustainable agriculture. Ideas

4:53

like understanding the importance of biodiversity for the

4:55

health of the land, planning

4:57

nitrogen-fixing crops, composting, and

4:59

repurposing farm waste. Ideas

5:02

that went against conventional wisdom at the

5:04

time, because they prioritized soil and plant

5:06

health over pure profit and technical solutions.

5:08

His solution is to look backward in

5:10

an era when everyone else is looking

5:12

towards increased yield, increased market

5:15

participation, increased inputs. By

5:17

taking a holistic view of the land, Carver

5:20

believed his methods would eventually free the

5:22

most destitute farmers from the economic realities

5:24

of the Jim Crow South. The case

5:26

for Carver as a conservationist is

5:28

centered on his campaign to improve the lives

5:30

of impoverished black farmers in Macon

5:33

County, Alabama. But it was

5:35

an uphill battle to save a waste.

5:37

His campaign ultimately founded on

5:40

the political realities of

5:42

the Jim Crow South. The

5:46

fact that Carver tried at all to

5:48

improve black farmers' lives in such a

5:50

hostile economic system is in and

5:52

of itself remarkable, partly because of

5:54

the improbable path that brought Carver to

5:57

Tuskegee. Carver

6:01

was born enslaved in the 1860s in Missouri. By

6:04

the 1880s, he became the second

6:06

black student at Simpson College in

6:08

Indianola, Iowa. That's where

6:11

a mentor steered him away from studying painting,

6:13

his true passion, to studying botany.

6:15

So Carver transferred to the Iowa

6:18

Agricultural College, now Iowa State, to

6:20

study agriculture. As he settled

6:22

in at Iowa, Carver wrote in letters

6:24

that he viewed scientific agriculture as part of

6:26

his Christian duty to help black farmers in

6:28

the South. Now he was trained under a

6:31

guy named Lewis Pammell,

6:33

who was a plant botanist. He was

6:36

also the first man to write a

6:38

book with the term ecology in its

6:40

title. Pammell was a pioneering ecologist at

6:42

Iowa, and as his student, Carver

6:44

was exposed to ecology's core principles well

6:47

before they were formalized in textbooks. Pammell,

6:50

Carver later wrote, influenced his life

6:52

more than anyone else. And so Carver

6:54

was introduced to ecology as it was

6:56

founding, as it was coalescing, as a

6:59

discipline. Carver might have stayed at

7:01

Iowa with Pammell, were it not for an

7:03

unexpected invitation from Booker T. Washington. It

7:06

was an invitation that changed his life. It

7:09

depends on securing their conditions, whether

7:11

foreign land or who under that

7:13

effort... In 1895, Washington became hugely

7:16

famous for the speech in Atlanta. The

7:18

speech laid out the tenets of accommodationism, which

7:21

basically said that black Americans would

7:23

tolerate segregation if they were

7:26

allowed economic freedom. For the

7:28

record, that idea was pretty controversial even then,

7:30

and would fall way out of favor during

7:32

the Civil Rights Movement. But

7:34

Washington, as the president of the Tuskegee

7:36

Institute, sought to put accommodationism

7:38

into practice. So this makes him

7:41

the favorite of Northern philanthropists. It

7:43

makes Booker T. Washington the most

7:45

influential black figure in America.

7:48

Washington saw Carver as a perfect choice

7:50

to lead the newly formed agricultural department

7:52

at Tuskegee, and to retain an

7:55

all-black faculty. And Carver

7:57

saw Tuskegee as a vehicle to bring his

7:59

expert agricultural... knowledge south. But

8:04

things didn't quite go as planned. On

8:07

a 1941 radio show, Carver reminisced

8:09

about his train ride down to Tuskegee, about

8:12

his heart sinking as he looked out the

8:14

window. As he watched

8:16

the landscape morph from golden wheat fields in

8:18

the Midwest to monoculture cotton

8:20

in the south, he saw,

8:22

quote, not much evidence

8:25

of scientific farming anywhere. Everything

8:27

looked hungry. The land, the cotton,

8:30

the cattle, and the people. Carver

8:32

steps off the train to Macon County, Alabama,

8:34

and looks around. What he sees is eroded

8:36

fields and then what he says, acres of

8:39

cotton, nothing but cotton. And this is a

8:41

result actually of the rise of sharecropping and

8:43

tendency in the wake of the Civil War.

8:45

In the mid 1890s, cotton dominated

8:48

the total crop acreage in Macon County.

8:51

It was the cash crop, and that's because

8:53

a majority of black farmers who worked the

8:55

land were sharecroppers. Farmers who didn't

8:57

own their own land and often became

9:00

trapped in a cycle of indebtedness to

9:02

their landowner. If you're farming on chairs, the

9:04

only thing that will get you cash and get you

9:06

out of debt is cotton.

9:08

It really becomes king in a way it

9:10

hadn't been before the Civil War. And it's

9:12

tended by people who have no incentive to

9:14

take care of the soil at all. If

9:16

they improve the soil, they're charged higher rents.

9:18

At the end of the day, cotton

9:21

expands, it's plowed, the

9:23

cover crops go away, and

9:26

soil exhaustion explodes throughout the South.

9:28

It's hard to overstate how exploitative

9:30

this system was. Tended farmers and

9:32

sharecroppers might be charged as much

9:34

as 100% interest to

9:37

buy supplies at the beginning of a

9:39

planting season in a credit system

9:41

completely controlled by white landowners and merchants.

9:44

Landowners wanted to milk Macon County soils

9:46

for as much productive cotton as possible,

9:49

which meant black farmers at their direction

9:52

planted until mainly cotton year

9:54

after year. So

9:56

it's within this landscape that Carver

9:58

ran Tuskegee's agricultural experiment station.

10:01

That meant answering questions and publishing research

10:03

bulletins to help black farmers in the

10:05

area. When Carver first arrived

10:07

at Tuskegee, his bulletins, in large part,

10:10

mirrored the latest ag science. And

10:13

that meant advocating for chemical fertilizers to

10:15

maximize yields on the battered land. He

10:17

really shows up expecting to bring sort

10:19

of Midwestern style agriculture to

10:22

the south and that this will fix the problem.

10:24

We're going to have technical solutions

10:26

to these problems. Two horse

10:28

plows chemically compounded fertilizers. But over

10:31

time Carver's position shifted. He realized

10:34

that the soil issues in Macon County were

10:36

not a question of just inputs and outputs.

10:39

Soil degradation was intrinsically tied to the

10:41

economic demands of the Jim Crow south,

10:43

which dictated how the land was managed.

10:46

They were stuck in a cycle of

10:48

dependence and debt because there was such

10:50

a precarious position socially, economically and politically.

10:52

So Carver's research bulletins started to zig

10:54

where ag science at the time zagged.

10:57

If farmers could grow their own food, Carver

10:59

thought, or require their own supplies, they

11:02

fell less into debt and become less dependent

11:04

on white owners. In his

11:06

writing, Carver began to downplay

11:08

the use of chemical fertilizers, which

11:10

in the early 20th century were

11:12

almost sacrosanct to farming. Chemical fertilizers

11:14

cost money that white landlords wouldn't

11:16

advance to black tenants and which

11:18

black tenants generally didn't have.

11:20

But what was available was a swamp mark.

11:22

And you can compost that and you can

11:24

apply that. And that will both slow

11:27

erosion by creating a better

11:29

topsoil, even as it provides the necessary

11:31

nutrients that plants would need.

11:34

Carver wrote about using swamp muck

11:36

as a free alternative to commercial

11:38

fertilizer. In bulletins, he

11:40

pushed for vegetable gardens, manure composting

11:42

and different plowing techniques. He enlisted

11:44

staff to take a wagon out

11:46

to the countryside and give practical

11:48

demonstrations. And it was

11:50

his search for low cost solutions, which

11:52

brought Carver to a hardy, not yet

11:55

so popular legume. What he begins looking

11:57

for are crops that could be grown

11:59

alongside that the cultivation doesn't overlap

12:01

in the same kind of way, but

12:04

that are nutritious or

12:07

high-calorie, and so much better if they're nitrogen-fixing,

12:09

and that's how he got to the peanut.

12:11

The peanut, a leguminous vegetable, fixes

12:13

nitrogen from the air back into the

12:15

soil, replenishing it. Carver

12:18

reached similar conclusions about sweet potatoes and

12:20

cowpeas, which he also enthusiastically

12:22

promoted in bulletins. Carver

12:25

wrote about, but did not invent, various

12:27

peanut recipes and uses, meant to encourage

12:29

black farmers to grow their own peanuts

12:31

for use as food and supplies. So

12:34

when the peanut lobby came knocking, Carver's

12:37

peanut bulletins paved the way for

12:39

his expert testimony to Congress. But

12:41

when the floodgates of fame opened afterwards,

12:44

people papered over his other conservation work.

12:47

His typecasting as, the peanut man,

12:49

would encase him, a mythology

12:51

as thick and sticky as a tub of

12:53

crunchy peanut butter. When

12:57

we come back, we'll hear more

12:59

about how people thought about Carver

13:01

during his lifetime and where his

13:03

legacy stands today, in a different

13:05

time, in much different socio-political reality.

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on Mac's subscription required. So

15:00

yeah, these are a couple of

15:02

raised beds and right now we

15:04

have some zinnias and sunflowers which

15:07

the birds love and we

15:09

also have some sweet potatoes that we got growing

15:11

in that raised bed. And

15:13

then I can take you over to this

15:15

side. Nick Speed is close cropped hair, a

15:18

wide smile, and is wearing a gray hoodie

15:20

that has a stylized, very cool portrait of

15:22

George Washington Carver on it. Nick

15:24

runs the George Washington Carver Farms in St.

15:26

Louis, Missouri, as well as a community garden,

15:29

all under the umbrella of his non-profit. GWC

15:32

Farms is a compact half-acre urban

15:34

farm that seeks to honor Carver's

15:36

legacy beyond just the peanut.

15:39

Carver came across my radar as

15:41

an outdoor educator. He did a

15:43

phenomenal job of really creating opportunities

15:46

for Black farmers in the South

15:49

to creating manuals for folks who

15:51

are experiencing food insecurity to find

15:53

edible plants that you would see

15:55

in a park or in an

15:58

open field and get some left

16:00

out when we talk about Carver's legacy.

16:02

For Nick as a farmer, just like

16:04

with Mark, the Carver scholar, talking

16:06

about Carver's legacy means thinking about him

16:09

as a conservationist, backed by

16:11

the ideas he promoted at Tuskegee. Carver's

16:13

solutions cost practically no money and

16:15

relied on the natural world. Reading

16:18

his bulletins now in his archives, they

16:20

seem remarkably simple, foolproof in a

16:23

way. What he was trying to do was get the

16:25

farmers to develop a way of

16:27

thinking rather than a prescription. They needed to

16:29

learn to think eugologically

16:31

and by seeing the connections between

16:34

soil and animals and

16:37

plants. However they had seen weeds,

16:39

they would suddenly see food. But

16:41

the actual results of Carver's campaign?

16:43

Well, it wouldn't be a stretch

16:45

to call them a failure, at least in his lifetime.

16:48

Black land ownership rates in Macon County were lower in the

16:50

1930s than they were in 1910, when Carver was at the

16:55

age of a large, self-sufficient black

16:57

farming class never materialized in Alabama.

17:00

And there are lots of reasons for this. But

17:04

one stands out in particular. It was a

17:06

sound plan in theory,

17:09

right? It was a sound plan ecologically, but

17:12

a commitment to white supremacy made it just impossible.

17:15

Carver's mission, if it had succeeded, would have

17:17

been deeply subversive to the Jim Crow South.

17:20

Carver operated in a system where

17:22

landlords and merchants controlled all the

17:25

means of production, from the credit

17:27

to buy farm supplies to the cotton mills.

17:30

Landlords and creditors told black farmers

17:32

what to plant, which limited opportunities

17:34

to diversify crops or rotate other

17:36

crops in. For Carver

17:39

to have succeeded in both repairing

17:41

the soil and uplifting black farmers

17:43

would have meant toppling an entire

17:45

political system. It would

17:47

have been battling economic forces like

17:49

farm mechanization, which began displacing black

17:51

farmers in waves of migration north.

17:54

And doing all of that was just

17:56

too much for one man with one

17:58

experimental agricultural state. This campaign

18:01

revealed was that you cannot

18:03

separate social and

18:05

environmental justice. You know, just with it,

18:08

if you're going to have successful conservation plans, they have

18:10

to account for the people living in them. So

18:13

should we consider Carver's work as a failure then?

18:16

For Mark, it's an unequivocal no.

18:19

Carver's sustainable agricultural ideas were decades

18:21

ahead of their time. Years

18:24

before ecologist Aldo Leopold penned his famous

18:26

land ethic, basically, what's good for the

18:28

land is what's good for the land.

18:31

Carver tried to put those ideas

18:33

in practice when every major economic,

18:36

social, and political force was working

18:38

against black people. And

18:40

he tried to work within the means of

18:42

the people around him. The things he fought

18:44

for, though, are really worthwhile, really important. And

18:47

the way he approached those is pretty ingenious.

18:49

Even Carver may have realized that his efforts

18:51

may not bear fruit until much later. Here's

18:55

him in a 1939 interview discussing

18:57

his work at Tuskegee in a

18:59

poetic, almost foreshadowing way. Sometimes

19:02

it is wise not

19:04

to look for too much

19:07

appreciation. The

19:09

main thing is to be sure

19:11

you're right and go ahead, regardless

19:14

of whether people appreciate it

19:16

or whether they don't. Because

19:20

in time, they will appreciate

19:22

it. So simply

19:24

be sure that you are on

19:27

the right road. Carver's

19:29

approach to biodiversity is a legacy that

19:31

Mark, Nick, and now I see in

19:33

Carver. When I first met

19:36

Nick, I thought observing Carver's legacy in

19:38

practice would mean talking about the nuts

19:40

and bolts of composting or fertilizer. But

19:43

Carver's legacy at Nick's farm is much

19:45

more about seeing and responding to the

19:48

economic problems specific to the

19:50

neighborhood. We are in Fairground

19:52

neighborhood, a historic North St.

19:54

Louis city neighborhood, one

19:57

that was once thriving but is

19:59

now littered... with vacant properties,

20:01

vacant buildings, crime, unemployment. Getting

20:03

the farm off the ground

20:05

meant buying the property, which

20:08

is a familiar hurdle for black farmers. For

20:11

Nick, owning the land itself was

20:13

important to the sustainability of his

20:15

operation and a way to challenge

20:17

the status quo. The USDA

20:19

has had a history

20:21

of discrimination against black

20:24

folks trying to get

20:27

loans, resources, land to

20:30

farms specifically, while

20:32

simultaneously creating those same opportunities

20:34

for white men and their

20:37

families. Carver died before the

20:39

civil rights movement overturned Jim

20:41

Crow laws, but its shadow lived on.

20:44

For decades, the USDA denied black

20:46

farmers loans and credit worth billions

20:49

of dollars. After several

20:51

lawsuits, black farmers eventually won one

20:53

of the largest civil rights settlements

20:55

in US history. But in

20:57

1999, and at that

20:59

point, the damage was already done. Today,

21:02

agriculture in all of the US, but

21:04

especially in the South, is

21:06

white-dominated and largely composed of

21:08

big agribusiness. Less than

21:10

2% of all farmers in

21:13

this country are black as

21:15

a black farmer for you to

21:18

not just commit to a career

21:20

in urban agriculture, but to purchase

21:23

and manage land, I think, in

21:25

itself is a defiance against white

21:27

supremacy and the systems that have

21:30

for so long kept us from

21:32

these opportunities. With the deed in

21:34

hand, Nick ramped up the farm

21:36

slowly. It's now in year two. Nick

21:38

told me that once it reaches full capacity, this

21:41

half-acre alone can easily yield 20,000 pounds of

21:43

food a year. And

21:46

traces of Carver's sustainable agricultural vision

21:49

are everywhere. There's composting, repurposed

21:51

wooden benches as plant beds,

21:53

and companion planting, or putting

21:55

complementary crops together. Nick

21:58

showed me a patch of strawberries under a... tree

22:00

sapling across from a bright yellow GWC

22:35

Farms is not just a farm,

22:37

which is an acknowledgement by Nick

22:40

that supporting his community means addressing

22:42

its socio-economic reality. Like Carver,

22:44

it means thinking about who the farm is serving.

22:47

Nick's nonprofit runs the Sunflower Institute

22:49

to introduce teens to agriculture and

22:51

food career paths, and there are

22:54

other projects in the works. The

22:56

biggest way to support our communities

22:58

is through agriculture. Through our expansion

23:00

of food production, we're going to

23:03

have more job opportunities. Through

23:05

the education, we're going to open

23:07

up career paths for folks who

23:09

wouldn't have access to those. By

23:12

building green infrastructure, we're literally

23:15

making these communities healthier and

23:18

safer for the folks living in these

23:20

spaces. Looking out at the farm, it

23:22

was mostly empty, but where

23:24

I saw dirt and patchy grass,

23:26

Nick saw endless possibilities of

23:28

fish ponds, rain catchment sprinklers, and

23:30

more fruit trees. We'll have a

23:32

larger gazebo for cover space. This

23:35

is the beginning of our orchard. We

23:37

have five fruit trees currently, four pears,

23:40

one persimmon. He saw solutions that were

23:42

good for the land and the people

23:44

living around it. And

23:46

that seems like something worth fighting for. Eshon

24:10

Takor reported this episode. Together,

24:13

he and Katie Jane Franelius

24:15

produced it. Eshon is

24:17

a multimedia producer and investigative journalist

24:19

based in Colorado where he is

24:22

a Ted Scripps Fellow in environmental

24:24

journalism at the University of Colorado

24:26

Boulder. We thank Wendell Patrick

24:28

for gravy C music, Giselle for our

24:30

donor music. We also owe a

24:33

huge thank you to Clay Jones and Broadcast

24:35

Studios for recording and mixing gravy. These

24:37

days when we pour gravy in your ear, it

24:39

sounds better than ever thanks to Clay. Managing

24:42

editor for gravy and all other

24:44

SFA media is Sarah Camp Milem.

24:46

Olivia Turinzio is our podcast editor.

24:48

My co-host, Mary Beth Lasseter, is

24:50

our publisher. Want to learn more

24:52

about the changing American South? Visit

24:55

us at southernfoodways.org. Read

24:57

oral history, watch films, or listen

24:59

to this podcast. While

25:01

you're there, become a member or make a

25:04

donation. Your dollars fund our work and help

25:06

us make more gravy. I'm

25:08

Mary Beth Lasseter. I'm Melissa Hull. Excited

25:10

to lap up another episode of gravy?

25:13

Tell a friend. Pass the gravy boat. There's

25:15

plenty to go around. Gravy is

25:17

proud to be a part of APT

25:19

Podcast Studios.