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people I find are able to look at that failure and

0:35

turn it into a positive experience. And other people look

0:37

at that failure as a reason for why they should never

0:39

do it again. By the time

0:41

you're a working adult, you've internalized kind of

0:43

cultural belief that you have to get things

0:46

right, not wrong. The cool

0:48

kids are the ones who succeed, don't fail.

0:50

So, you know, we internalize these messages and

0:52

then we get rigid and then

0:54

we get afraid. The number one thing that

0:56

matters is a growth mindset, which is a kind

0:59

of a belief that, you

1:01

know, your capabilities are a work

1:03

in progress. They're something

1:05

that you can improve

1:09

through stretching. You get smarter

1:11

as you take on challenging goals

1:13

and you learn and you learn from your

1:15

failures. You know, this idea that, you know,

1:18

I can't fail, I can only learn and

1:20

grow. And you internalize it to be something

1:22

that you actually believe. Hey,

1:33

everyone. Welcome to another episode of

1:35

Great Leadership. My guest today, somebody

1:37

you are probably very familiar with,

1:39

Dr. Amy C. Edmondson. She is

1:42

the professor of leadership and management

1:44

at the Harvard Business School. Best

1:47

selling author of a couple of books. Her

1:49

most famous, which has been out for a

1:51

few years now, is The Fearless Organization. And

1:54

she's also the author of a book that

1:57

just is coming out called Right Kind of a

1:59

Book. The Wrong: The Science of feeling. Well

2:01

I had a chance to read and advanced

2:04

reader copy which. I. Got right

2:06

here. A lot of cool stuff in there.

2:09

So any thank you so much for joining me. Thank.

2:12

You so much for having me.

2:14

yeah and what will talk a

2:16

little bit about vulnerability to Because

2:18

I know that was mentioned in

2:20

the book and I'm I'm I'm

2:22

really excited to get into some

2:24

of the themes in their why

2:26

don't we jump into just background

2:28

information about why This book so

2:30

obviously you wrote the Fearless Organization

2:32

was really pioneered this era or

2:34

this area of psychological safety. How

2:36

is that related to failure? Well,

2:40

psychological safety. Is so

2:42

necessary for us to handle failure

2:45

as that the short answer at

2:47

that. That, and and to back

2:50

up. Why? Should we handle salad

2:52

wealth, they have no real choice. or

2:54

failure is here to stay. Failure is

2:56

with us because we live in an

2:59

uncertain, complex, ambiguous world. So

3:01

psychological safety and describes. Environment which

3:03

is simply it can be described

3:05

as as as an old a

3:07

learning environment but an environment where

3:09

people feel confident that they can

3:11

take the interpersonal risks of learning.

3:14

Speaking up, you know. Admitting a

3:16

mistake. I'm pointing to a

3:18

failure offering. A dissenting view. And

3:20

so I'm the I've been studying

3:22

that see in the organizational. Culture

3:25

and organizational climate for a really long.

3:27

Time and the theme of.

3:30

Say. earlier and. Error and

3:32

mishap and accidents. You

3:35

know and and just lack of

3:37

success and some settings it is.

3:39

Is always There is always lurking in

3:42

the background. Some left in the foreground

3:44

so I decided to put it squarely in

3:46

the foreground. The and has always been lots

3:48

of. Dismissing Silicon

3:50

Valley right? Whatever them everyday always say oh

3:53

fail fail fast him and break things are

3:55

fell fast, the move on and failure. I

3:57

think it's been a big part, especially the.

4:00

The tech. Culture. And

4:03

we're I've been very, very interesting

4:05

am. Worked. As failure

4:07

actually mean. Like If you

4:10

were to define, failure isn't

4:12

just any. Mistake.

4:14

That you make doesn't matter of the signs

4:17

and scale of the failure or is it

4:19

says anything that doesn't go well. Well

4:22

the salaries anything at any

4:24

results are any as and

4:26

that. Is not what

4:29

was desired. And. An.

4:31

End. and since it's it's

4:33

to lack of a for result and

4:36

and so. Mistakes are in

4:38

the same domain, but they're not the

4:40

same concept and maybe the best. And

4:42

a mistake is defined. As something that

4:45

you did wrong were, there was a

4:47

right way to do it. Sometimes a

4:49

failure involves something going wrong, were there

4:51

was a right way to do it.

4:54

But other failures are in genuinely new

4:56

territory. So and keep in mind

4:58

you can make a mistake. And. Have

5:00

it not produce a failure rate in

5:02

know I and I can mistakenly up

5:05

but the milk in the cupboard instead

5:07

of the fridge but catch it later

5:09

and not. Didn't. Go bad. it's oaths

5:11

is plenty of mistakes that we can make.

5:13

Them we you know either catching

5:16

correct before they cause harm or

5:18

they really weren't. Such.

5:20

A big deal to end up causing anything

5:22

we'd remotely wanna call Sillier okay to him

5:24

and part of my goal in this book

5:26

is to kind. Help us

5:29

have better terminology so. That

5:31

we're not. At

5:33

a particular, I don't want us

5:35

to acquaint mistakes and failures and

5:37

the main reason is that I

5:39

don't want us to think about

5:41

failures in new territory as mistakes.

5:44

Because they're not right there with you.

5:46

Could not have done better even if

5:48

you wanted to jail for some did

5:50

want to make is there you didn't

5:52

You lacks the knowledge you needed. Okay,

5:55

any in in center is in new

5:57

territory. They're not making a mistake when

5:59

their inventions. They'll. Okay, got it.

6:01

I'm super people tuning into C. Give them a

6:03

little bit of context on at what we're going

6:05

to do. We're gonna talk a lot about. Failure.

6:08

Different types of failures. You have some

6:10

frameworks models in the book. In and

6:12

for the last fifteen, twenty minutes or

6:15

so, we can look at how to

6:17

actually practice feeling well. And that's when

6:19

we'll get into themes like Vulnerability a

6:21

learning over knowing refraining. You have a

6:23

framework in their Stop Challenge shoes of

6:25

our novel, Getting the all the different

6:27

questions I have had a lot in

6:29

in that area say I'm. So seven

6:31

to these three archetypes of failure. Because I

6:34

think that's how you. Set

6:36

the stage for the books. We

6:38

have basic, complex and intelligence. So

6:40

how do you distinguish between those

6:43

three? Actually, Why do we even

6:45

need to as being wish between

6:47

those Thailand failures? Let

6:49

you know you started out by. Saying. There's

6:51

in and virtually and a telesur

6:53

a Montrose Silicon Valley sell fast

6:55

break things you know an end

6:57

and then affairs that. Up

7:05

Eight? That's that won't work. I'm not. I'm

7:07

not. You know, I don't get rewarded for

7:09

failing. And so. The.

7:12

Problem with the sale fast sell

7:14

off and idea is that it

7:16

is. Absolutely powerful for

7:18

some contexts and. So

7:21

when we don't have my arguments,

7:23

we don't have a good framework

7:25

to distinguish the and different types of

7:27

failures in the different types of

7:29

context. Then we just

7:31

can hear the rhetoric we like go along with

7:33

it is happy talk. But we know deep in

7:35

our hearts it makes no sense. but I think

7:37

to deepen our hearts. It can make sense

7:40

so long as we make. The. Right

7:42

distinctions. So what Are these? The

7:44

domain were fail fast break things

7:46

make sense is the domain of

7:48

intelligence. Failure Of an intelligent failure.

7:50

As any tell you, that happens

7:52

in. New Territory in pursuit of a

7:55

goal. With.

7:57

A hypothesis. or at least good.

8:00

Reason to believe it. My

8:02

words. A minute, but it

8:04

might, and finally that it's no bigger

8:06

than it has to be. To.

8:08

Gain the knowledge you need, It

8:11

to to. Know whether something's gonna work

8:13

or so and entrepreneurs are trying a new

8:15

company or developing new product and. They.

8:17

Wanted to succeed just like the rest

8:19

of us, but because. It's new because

8:21

you can't know for sure of it.

8:23

might not right, but they don't bet

8:25

there and higher. Assets.

8:28

On and unproven. Magic

8:30

the do it at at the right

8:32

scale so that's the right kind of

8:35

raw intelligence. Eller new territory goal. It'll

8:37

in pursuit of a goal with a

8:39

hypothesis as small as possible. The.

8:43

Other two kinds are are. Generally.

8:46

More preventing when we can. I know

8:48

the basic sailors. And the complex sellers

8:50

basic sailors, you're single cause failures caused by

8:52

mistake you know in known territory and backed

8:55

out of driveway too fast they hit a

8:57

wall. I had some by dented my thing.

8:59

I just caused like of thousand dollars worth

9:01

of buddy damage. That is

9:03

a basic failure. It's a real

9:06

drag. It is preventable. You know

9:08

how they backed out slowly carefully. Sarah.

9:11

So we'd I will feel would make

9:13

any sense to celebrate those. Christ's sake

9:15

why would you have those you want

9:17

to celebrate? you know just. Some stupid

9:19

mistake you make that creates a

9:22

failure of what we do want

9:24

to celebrate a Surf Care of

9:26

digital diligence when people avoid it

9:28

on the good catches and away

9:31

anyway. the third kind are. Complex

9:34

sailors which are multi causal.

9:36

Their the The Perfect Storm

9:38

their the kinds of fillers

9:40

that happen when. For.

9:43

Whatever. Reason or bad luck, A

9:45

bunch of things lined up and

9:48

just the wrong way and created

9:50

a failure rate and they are

9:52

the out there on the rise

9:54

because of the complexity of our

9:56

world with the the good news

9:58

about complex steelers. Is that they

10:01

offer. Many different opportunities

10:03

stitch to catch and prevent

10:05

them. And

10:07

I think didn't want to be. example

10:10

the how complex failure was that the

10:12

of a Boeing. Seven

10:14

Thirty Seven. Yes. That's one of

10:16

the more complex examples of a complex

10:18

failure, and I chose that. Went to

10:20

say that sometimes act. In oh of fail

10:22

a complex silly earth's. Literally plays out

10:25

over decades. At that the

10:27

various factors that contribute to. Say

10:29

it's the devastating. Crashes.

10:32

And losses of life of the

10:34

seven three seven max accidents here

10:37

are in those those were not.

10:39

You know those weren't just doesn't.

10:44

Quick he had a one day someone

10:46

did something wrong. Those works at a

10:48

very large number of factors have played

10:51

out over decades and what about some

10:53

serious is kind of to random examples.

10:56

In these are to recent things that

10:58

happen right: One one of the Titan

11:00

submersible bed of course sir, imploded and the

11:02

other recent one is like Sam Big

11:04

Girl same being been freed am Mtx

11:06

Example: Would you put them both of

11:08

those in the complex category. Yes,

11:11

I think. They're both complex sell

11:14

years because there's multiple causes. okay

11:16

of. And I think

11:18

they're both largely speaking

11:21

presentable. I'm an end

11:23

and civil in other than the

11:25

beauty of complex sellers as they

11:27

give you lots of different opportunities

11:29

perfect for prevention. Just it on

11:31

that and the Titan we could

11:33

talk about a prevention opportunity. That

11:35

was that existed the day they.

11:37

Took off or on the

11:39

voyage of Britain's despite warnings

11:42

you know despite he said

11:44

limitations of deaths of the

11:46

technology. And and so and that

11:49

would be a great example. A said Titan

11:51

for a moment and it's a great example

11:53

of a sailor. This is not something to

11:55

celebrate. Obviously of it is it

11:57

was on it was it was for.

12:00

He a bowl and preventable. And

12:02

yet it wasn't just a single mistake. You

12:04

know that? what? That day? someone? Put the

12:06

gear in the wrong direction and made

12:08

a are you know make made a

12:11

failure with it was of a. As

12:13

a whole, handful. Of factors,

12:15

incentives and ego and lack

12:17

of training and material flaws

12:19

and on and I go

12:21

to jail for co the

12:23

way that I conceptualize this

12:25

the A basic failures almost

12:27

like an unforced error rate.

12:30

In any kind of us for somebody

12:32

passes the ball, didn't catch it, Go

12:34

That abounds. Yep, it's it's that Case

12:37

excels at the way that I am

12:39

kind of envisioning. A complex failure is

12:41

almost like I'm. Not

12:44

necessarily like a series of basic failures, but

12:46

it's kind of like. Are

12:48

like I have a more than or

12:51

more complex version of a basic. There

12:53

were several things I am went wrong

12:55

right but also n. N n

12:57

any one of them on their own

12:59

wouldn't. Have produced a failure? Yeah,

13:02

right? Like that you you needed is

13:04

sort of needed. All of them coming together.

13:06

Sit Out. The Titan I did been

13:08

ill been underwater many times before and

13:11

had not. Had it's

13:13

catastrophic end but said. The

13:15

the sheer number of factors kind of

13:17

coming together. Now can we go back

13:19

to the sports analogies Like well, we

13:21

lost the game not because of one

13:23

pass, but because overall for the whole

13:25

game we didn't play well. There are

13:27

a lot of mistakes and stuff like

13:29

that, I'm so let's go over those

13:31

for criteria for intelligence failures one more

13:33

time. because I'd certainly we went over

13:35

to quickly mating a really important and

13:37

so you had a new territory opportunity

13:40

to advance for desired goal, hypothesis driven

13:42

and small and can still provide valuable

13:44

insights so. Your swing

13:46

New territory. I'm. This

13:48

Are we talking about? Something totally the

13:51

different. Like I'm a maker of water

13:53

bottles and not going to start producing

13:55

text books. Could it be a different

13:57

have to be applied? So I knew.

14:00

Tory to me can in some cases.

14:02

Like if you're a leading scientists city

14:04

University for example, it can be brand

14:06

new to the world like you're You're

14:08

asking a question, are trying to produce

14:10

a result that no one yet knows

14:12

how to do. But but for the

14:14

rest of us, new territory can be

14:16

new to you. And unless it's like

14:18

a recipe for making making something which

14:20

you can look up and then use

14:23

it but you should than do about

14:25

it. Some things up you know, new

14:27

like finding a look at you you're

14:29

gonna go on a date with someone

14:31

you've never met. Before at the new. Territory

14:33

there's no way to know in

14:36

advance for. Sure whether it will

14:38

go well, are not. so. You're.

14:40

You're sort of willing to take that risk

14:42

because he can look to your right and

14:44

left. You're left with is no. Place you

14:47

can find the information that. You want

14:49

it or these are the knowledge

14:51

you want to know whether this

14:53

is gonna be a great said

14:55

are not okay. It's more like

14:57

i'm uncertain t risks that kind

14:59

of yes element of yes uncertainties

15:01

probably the the the most and

15:03

precise single word yet if one

15:05

single or this. Genuine uncertainty he

15:08

can't make. It go away as

15:10

you can just find the knowledge on

15:12

the internet and sale now I now

15:15

possess Do X and Y will

15:17

happen? It's there's genuine uncertainty in the

15:19

second, prettier and opportunity towards advancing towards

15:21

the desired goal. You

15:23

know somebody might even everything. Advancing

15:26

towards a desired goal or like.

15:29

More. Damning inside of an organization for

15:31

example, don't we always having toward. Moving.

15:34

Towards the gulf. Would that's a great point

15:36

although the and you don't in it

15:38

many senior executives. Would say wish that were

15:41

true friend I wish that or whatever but

15:43

he was doing all day long was always

15:45

in pursuit of our it or or or

15:47

goals. So. With that is saying

15:49

is there ought to be in this

15:51

can be enough a subjective test, but

15:54

there ought to be a. Credible

15:56

argument. That. This is.

15:58

Worth trying. I.

16:00

Like the you know if it works

16:02

it takes a step forward toward toward

16:04

a goal. It so up What what

16:06

I'm trying to do is take away

16:08

the kinds of failures that happened. Where

16:11

we have no business messing. With that in the

16:13

first place. You. Know I

16:15

could decide as an employee of a company that. I'm

16:17

going to make an expensive purchase on behalf

16:19

of the company of a piece of equipment

16:21

that. We. Don't even

16:23

really credibly need to produce

16:25

our. Our. Services.

16:28

In. Our our our the value that we give

16:30

up to our customers. It so it's it's

16:32

gotta be. On

16:35

the critical path toward where we're trying

16:37

to go and that that could be

16:39

in, I'm finding a life partner that

16:41

could be no building a new drug.

16:43

It to be winning the state a

16:45

baseball game at. but it's It's some.

16:48

It's. In in your mind and hopefully you

16:51

could check this out with others. If

16:53

there's any doubt, it's. Worth

16:55

the risk, right? It's worth

16:57

trying it. What happens if

17:00

the goal. From

17:02

time to figure out of phrases from

17:05

thinking of for example, Enron I'm thinking

17:07

of. for example, if Bernie made off

17:09

of Tx all these different institutions were

17:11

the goal was to. Create. A

17:14

successful company to grow to make

17:16

more money. which technically they did.

17:19

But of course we all know

17:21

how those stories have ended. So.

17:24

I just I'm trying to find out is what

17:26

happens if the goal. Takes.

17:29

Over as far as

17:31

ethics. Ah, Urology. Doing

17:33

the right thing like does that

17:35

matter for the goal. The.

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18:09

was a great question and and I.

18:11

You. Know when when I think about. Causes of

18:14

failure I. I usually.

18:16

I mean I make a

18:18

distinction between the states and

18:21

sabotage. Rated if you're you know

18:23

if you're picked it but but this

18:25

isn't l sabotage like this is. But

18:27

the per. Perpetration.

18:30

Of fraud and is

18:32

is indeed say earlier.

18:37

Is. It intelligent. I'm.

18:40

In. This case. I like Enron

18:42

where they clearly yeah be clearly

18:45

like oh yeah. Yeah, I mean

18:47

the goal in a sense his in

18:49

a I guess six addicted technically said

18:51

if. You're thinking in terms

18:53

of interest of it was a valued

18:55

goal by the owners in it Is

18:57

this the goal. For them was

18:59

to continue to perpetuate this fraud

19:01

and if they were kind of

19:04

experimenting with things to see what.

19:06

Worked in what kinds of ways You can

19:08

pull the wool over someone's eyes and you

19:11

follow that us more so well. That does

19:13

work and you know they were making progress

19:15

toward their goal. Now I suppose in a

19:17

we could say yeah, yep, a white, how

19:19

can account when that's not a goal we

19:22

approve of. That's.

19:24

A Tricky it's tricky line to. Draw

19:26

I because. There might

19:29

be lots of goals is of the of

19:31

kids is hop right goals that your kids

19:33

are pursuing the you don't approve of for

19:35

it. Or friends and

19:37

so forth. So. I

19:40

think. That

19:43

the I'm a synthetic. That.

19:45

The goal could still work even if

19:47

it's us, even as it's a goal

19:49

of you know, I and unethical goal.

19:53

Doesn't. Mean we eat out that the

19:55

it it it doesn't mean we. Approve

19:57

of it, right? But it just it does

19:59

mean. It may in fact,

20:01

is really what we're talking

20:04

those years. thoughtful experimentation to

20:06

make progress in unknown territory

20:08

and. If you were, you

20:10

know if you had a magic wand, you'd make

20:12

all those thoughtful experiments. And and success that

20:14

since you don't have a magic wand, some

20:16

of those. Thoughtful experiments will end in

20:19

failure. I'm okay

20:21

and we have hypothesis driven and

20:24

small him from still provide valuable

20:26

insights. so hypothesis driven. I

20:29

take sure assume they you basically you

20:31

know, guessing you're making these decisions based

20:33

on quantitative qualitative data like you're being

20:35

smart about. It unites us. Was full

20:38

of being thoughtful about it. Path of

20:40

having. The simplest way to put it is

20:42

this good reason to. Believe that might work

20:44

okay. and then the last one which

20:46

I thought was interesting is kind of

20:48

the size and the context matters to

20:50

spread of providing small enough that it

20:53

can. Provide. A valuable insights so

20:55

again not going all in something you can

20:57

test into see what you're. We're

20:59

finding out. You

21:01

ought to be motivated. To reduce

21:03

waste read: see what you want,

21:06

Your experimenter, your test and air

21:08

go. Your failure to be no.

21:10

Bigger than it has to be to give

21:12

you the. Information you need to

21:15

go. To. To make the next step.

21:18

Okay so then it sounds like for

21:20

people who are listening and watching the

21:22

idea is you want to avoid basic

21:24

failures you and of avoid conflict failures.

21:26

It's not to see what you want

21:28

intelligence failures but from the three types

21:30

of failures The intelligent ones are the

21:32

ones that you can actually learn from.

21:34

And right well you can learn from

21:36

all of that about we can always

21:38

learn from our our our failures rabies

21:40

don't You don't want them by but

21:42

you can still learn for I mean

21:44

please do learn from the red because

21:46

if you have them and you. Probably still

21:49

will keep having them. You might as well learn

21:51

from them to I get all the valley you

21:53

can from them. But.

21:55

I'll see ya for intelligent sellers in

21:57

fact is not bad advice to say.

21:59

Let's. More of them. Because

22:02

if you're not having enough of them, It's

22:05

you're not. Pushing. The

22:07

envelope. You're not stretching. you're not

22:10

doing what a former vet boss

22:12

of mine said, playing to when

22:14

you're not going for it like

22:16

you're playing it safe. Okay

22:19

for between all the different types of

22:21

failure of the one that you want

22:24

our intelligence failures yeah I'm and then

22:26

have a getting back to the stream

22:28

of psychological safety and failure. Would

22:31

it be safe to say that in

22:33

organizations were you don't have psychological safety,

22:35

you'll see more basic and complex failures

22:37

and less intelligent failures. I

22:40

think it is safe to say that okay

22:42

of because because you up one of the

22:44

major. Causes of basic and complex

22:46

sellers alike as people not. Speaking

22:48

up: When they see something

22:51

wrong, greater they see something,

22:53

it may. End up

22:55

producing a failure and it's just they're

22:57

afraid to speak up. They don't want

22:59

to kill the boss, they don't wanna.

23:01

You know, they don't look bad. Silks

23:04

and and psychological said she describes a

23:06

context where they will take that interpersonal

23:08

risk of speaking up. So many of

23:10

the sailors I have studied could quite

23:12

directly have been in. Organizations have been

23:15

avoided had people been able to speak

23:17

up earlier in the process. Oka and

23:19

Will would be the relationship between. The

23:22

say dear of failure and vulnerability see you

23:24

as you touched on it and a couple

23:27

different points in the book and obviously I

23:29

interviewed you for my book I'm reading was

23:31

vulnerability which is bringing together the competence and

23:33

the connection. Peace in there. But what? What

23:36

is the relationship in your book between mistakes

23:38

or worse and say failures and I can

23:40

be Easy Alex anymore and among others. Okay,

23:43

Like will make those two. I promise. He

23:45

looks, there's it's, the chapter. Chapter two is

23:47

called I'm sorry. Chapter three is called to

23:49

err is human right now. That old phrase

23:51

like. We don't want to make

23:53

mistakes. We wanna do our very best to

23:55

minimize them. But it's. We. Have to

23:57

accept that we were so that that's part of being vulgar.

24:00

Abolish the is to accept that

24:02

you will make mistakes though. The

24:04

way I talk. About vulnerability most

24:06

often is as follows: Vulnerability is

24:08

a fact You know. Each and

24:10

every one of us is a

24:12

fallible human being living in a

24:15

very complex, fallible world. and so.

24:17

We're. Vulnerable. By. Definition: to

24:19

woke up this morning, you're vulnerable and

24:22

and so the of the real question?

24:24

Like. The emotional question, The

24:26

wisdom question. Is are you

24:28

okay with that? And. If

24:31

you're okay with the fact of

24:33

your vulnerability, you will show up

24:35

differently. For others,

24:37

right, you will just show up as

24:40

someone who isn't trying to show off

24:42

all the time are trying to. Look.

24:46

Perfect Or. Be seen as

24:48

someone who has never made a mistake in her.

24:50

Life right? So.

24:52

You'll be more willing to kind of

24:54

deal with the the realities of of

24:56

this of our vulnerability to do to

24:58

not have a choice though when you

25:00

say like be okay with it, might

25:02

or might even care if you're okay

25:04

with it or not is just like

25:07

you say of acknowledge so what would

25:09

have you're not okay with it or

25:11

is it more of not willing to

25:13

acknowledge. Yeah.

25:15

I mean, it's it's. I. Think it's both.

25:17

I mean maybe the way I'm thinking about not

25:20

being. Okay with it is. It's

25:22

a sort of denials. Mechanism.

25:26

It's it's it was A. You know you're

25:28

just keeping it it bay. You're not. You're

25:30

you're. Years.

25:33

Loot and unwilling to look at

25:36

it around it. And so you're

25:38

You're. Trying to act as yes, it's

25:40

not their which I think it's hard

25:42

work. And and and and maybe

25:44

even gets in the way and fact

25:46

I'm sure it gets in the way

25:48

of meals and really on clear thinking

25:51

and certainly gets in the way of

25:53

other orientation know things. Are being serious

25:55

and interested in and present. For

25:57

other people. Do the

25:59

me. Example: the story the come to

26:01

mind for the intelligent failure am I

26:03

think didn't wasn't we're neighbors that the.

26:06

U. S You get the one of the people

26:08

I interviewed on my podcast as well from know my

26:10

and probably a lot of people. Wow air enough Miller

26:13

with his story. It's really. A

26:15

crazy story with him and I think even

26:17

the show on a Hulu the Bear. The.

26:20

Main character is supposed to be somebody

26:22

who worked at. Noma,

26:24

Our Renee Recep yellows not explicitly stated.

26:27

Can you share a little bit about.

26:29

That. Story. And am I correct in? that's kind

26:32

of the intelligent. It's

26:35

you know, she's. It's in the

26:38

intelligence failure of chapter and end.

26:40

I I, I just I

26:42

talk about is an historian.

26:44

His restaurant no less. At

26:47

it And as he he. Embodied he

26:49

embodies decline as a lead sale

26:51

your practitioner idea. You know where

26:54

you know you're really at the

26:56

leading edge of your craft. and

26:58

if you're there, guess what? There

27:00

will be sale years and associates

27:03

of. It's funny because he didn't start

27:05

out. Okay with sell your know

27:07

Started out and is a in

27:09

all of us young chefs. Aspiring.

27:13

Chefs in his kitchen and in

27:15

his restaurant worse for quite terrify

27:17

of have this in Britain really

27:19

tough to say it's experimenting with

27:21

a dish and brought it forward

27:23

and and in a wasn't exquisite

27:25

of he was he would not

27:27

have the most positive supportive response.

27:29

and a lot of you go

27:31

to the you try it it

27:33

be right is right or eliminate

27:35

the well or this is you

27:37

know it's interesting. And

27:40

and and. And old Zeus

27:42

and. See

27:45

and but he'd he'd be

27:47

gradually. He learned that. With.

27:50

In A without. Failures

27:52

or any fortunately it behind closed

27:54

doors. You don't do that. We.

27:56

Don't you? Don't tell sir. If

27:59

you're you're. Now guests

28:01

that. The. Failed this. It's

28:03

you and I have served them. The ones

28:05

that were out. And it so

28:07

he he learned that fight if we.

28:09

Can't do this behind closed doors. We

28:12

can't be innovative And he started to

28:14

really must preach the Failure gospel and

28:16

and right he started writing about it

28:18

in his own, his own journal and

28:21

I'm and and this and describing sort

28:23

of. The almost

28:25

a fun of trying things on that

28:27

absolute leading edges of what were possible

28:30

and some will work and some won't

28:32

end. And and really starting to say

28:34

this is the secret sauce of our

28:36

success as or is our ability to

28:38

sell wealth again behind closed doors. But

28:41

then. He. got to at it

28:43

or situation where he was having failure

28:45

of another klein which asserts haven't managed

28:47

to finances very well and and was

28:49

sort of in a in a big

28:51

see of reading. Can had to. had to

28:53

pause and figure. Out. Where we go wrong? And where's

28:55

that? You know? Where did this come from? The How?

28:57

How was it that we weren't able to actually. Make

29:01

money doing what we do, but. Sorted

29:03

that out too. So. I

29:06

think success in this sort of leading edge

29:08

of any domain is going to come with

29:11

different kinds of failures along the way. In

29:13

for Viva La. Familiar with him he

29:16

won the world's best chef several years

29:18

his restaurant restaurant yeah that's restaurant I've

29:20

you have like four or five times

29:22

to the point where they actually have.

29:24

I need to change the rules that

29:26

he can even when an effort that

29:28

it's exciting. So much for three crazy

29:30

story a man didn't also true like

29:33

he kept. He

29:35

was telling me every every year, every two years

29:37

and I close down the restaurant, they shut everything

29:39

down and I go open up pop ups in

29:41

different parts of the world. Yeah, and he recently

29:43

announced, right? And twenty twenty four years is causing

29:45

for good. They're done. At the end of twenty

29:47

twenty. Four Dell closed for good and then he

29:49

scan of pivot to add kind of son. Internet

29:52

based business for. an innovation

29:54

and cuisine so i don't we don't

29:57

know honestly what that means but Stay

30:00

tuned. Yeah, that'll be pretty cool. So

30:03

failure is something

30:06

that we all experience, we all go through. And

30:08

some people I find are able to look at that

30:10

failure and turn it into a positive experience and other

30:13

people look at that failure as a reason for why

30:15

they should never do it again. What

30:18

do you think the key difference is? Like

30:21

how can we take failures that

30:23

we experience and

30:25

turn them into these learning moments and positives

30:28

instead of using these failures as pivotal moments

30:31

that define why we can't move ahead and can't

30:33

do anything else? Well,

30:36

I hesitate to call it a

30:39

sort of a trait that you're born with because I

30:41

don't think it is. I think all little kids are

30:44

fine. You know, you learn to walk, you follow, you

30:46

learn again, you learn to ride a bike. Right? This

30:48

is sort of, we're

30:50

naturally able to do this, but by

30:52

the time you're a working adult or

30:55

even a middle school or in elementary

30:58

school or middle school, you've internalized

31:01

kind of cultural belief that you

31:03

have to get things right, not

31:05

wrong. There's right answers and the

31:07

cool kids are the ones who

31:09

succeed, don't fail. So, you know,

31:12

we internalize these messages and then

31:14

we get rigid and then we get afraid.

31:16

But I think the best answer to your question,

31:18

like what does it take is probably

31:21

the number one thing that matters is a

31:23

growth mindset, referring to

31:25

like what Carol Dweck terms

31:27

growth mindset versus a fixed mindset, right?

31:30

Which is a kind of a belief

31:32

that, you know, your capabilities

31:35

are a work in

31:37

progress. There's something that you can improve

31:41

through stretching. Now, through your you get

31:43

smarter as you as you take on

31:45

challenging goals and you learn and you

31:47

learn from your failures, you get you

31:49

get, you know, you get more athletic

31:51

as you as you as you run

31:53

or do whatever sport you like to

31:55

do. So, you know, this idea

31:57

that, you know, I can't fail, I can only learn.

32:00

and grow and internalize

32:02

it to be something that you actually

32:05

believe. And, you know, I

32:08

have two sons. One of them was a

32:10

little bit more instinctively this way from an

32:12

early age, right? He just was always sort

32:14

of, tell me what

32:16

I did wrong so I can get better. You know, like, wow,

32:19

really? That's what you want? Okay,

32:21

yeah, I can help you with that, right? So he

32:23

seemed to have a little bit of an intrinsic

32:25

advantage in that sense, but I think

32:27

it can be learned by

32:30

all of us. I mean, another aspect

32:32

is a kind of supportive community,

32:35

you know, whether that's your team or your

32:37

family or your

32:40

friendship group, right? A community that kind

32:42

of rewards this type of thinking

32:45

and acting and that rewards the

32:47

sharing, right? Because we don't have to have all

32:49

our failures ourselves. We can have some of them

32:52

vicariously. If you tell me something you tried and

32:54

it didn't work, then I don't have to try

32:56

that. The time has

32:58

finally come. My brand new

33:01

book, Leading with Vulnerability is officially

33:03

out. If you want

33:05

to know the difference between being vulnerable

33:08

at work and why it can hurt

33:10

you versus leading with vulnerability and why

33:12

that can be your greatest superpower, then

33:15

head over to leadwithvulnerability.com to

33:18

learn more and grab a

33:20

copy of the book. Sneak

33:23

peek, vulnerability is about exposing a gap

33:25

and leading with vulnerability is about exposing

33:28

a gap and demonstrating what you are

33:30

trying to do to close it. So how do

33:32

you actually do that? Again, head

33:34

over to leadwithvulnerability.com to learn

33:37

more and find out. So

33:42

before we jump into some action items, there's kind

33:44

of one, I don't know if you'd call it

33:47

a framework, but you had kind of a breakdown

33:49

of the failure landscape in there and

33:51

you talked about predictable and basic, variable and

33:53

complex, and novel and intelligent. And I really

33:56

liked you had like the nice chart in

33:58

there that broke all these things. I think

34:00

it was nine quadrants. Yep.

34:03

So what is that? And

34:05

why is that so important for people to

34:07

know? Because obviously we have the

34:10

three archetypes of failures, which to me, it seems

34:13

like whenever a failure does occur, the first thing you

34:15

need. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

34:19

So why the... I mean, the three archetypes

34:21

matter, but I think one of the

34:23

real competencies that you need to sort

34:26

of master this stuff is

34:28

context awareness. Now, this

34:30

is so simple, I'm

34:32

almost embarrassed to say it, but there's

34:34

really two key dimensions. One is, you

34:37

used this word before, how much uncertainty

34:39

is there? Because there are

34:41

domains, like if I'm going to go down and

34:43

make a tray of chocolate chip

34:46

cookies later today, I can

34:48

almost guarantee that the

34:50

result will be fine. I'm just going to

34:52

follow the recipe, I'm going to put the oven

34:54

at the right, right? It's just zero, almost

34:56

zero uncertainty there. And you would give me one of

34:59

those chocolate chip cookies, I'm assuming. I'll give you one,

35:01

I'll save you one. And

35:03

so how much uncertainty is there? Because

35:06

the more uncertainty, the more possibility

35:09

there is for failure. Okay.

35:13

Logically true. And then the other important

35:16

dimension, again, so crazy, so simple,

35:18

is what's at stake? And

35:21

when you say what's at stake, what are we

35:23

putting at risk if we try something that might

35:25

not work out? And that can

35:28

be financial, reputational, or

35:30

human safety. And

35:33

so obviously, if human life is at stake,

35:35

we want to be a lot more cautious

35:37

than if we're just playing a game in

35:40

our basement. Right.

35:43

So sizing up the context is

35:45

something that elite failure practitioners do

35:47

effortlessly. The rest of us

35:50

can sort of think it through. But

35:54

if we're in a sort of high

35:56

stakes setting, we've got

35:58

to proceed cautiously. very thoughtfully, you

36:00

know, if we're in a really well understood

36:03

setting. And so the

36:05

diagram, the nine cell diagram

36:08

you brought up, basically

36:10

makes the point that

36:12

in known territory, like very

36:15

consistent recognizable context where there's

36:18

recipes for getting the result, most

36:21

common failure that you're likely to make is

36:24

a basic failure. You make them, you just,

36:26

you do it in your sleep. Nope, you shouldn't do

36:28

things in your sleep. You should pay attention, be mindful.

36:31

Right? You do it in your sleep, you

36:33

make a mistake and you get a bad outcome. The

36:36

most sort of prototypical

36:38

failure type in a complex setting,

36:40

like an operating room or in

36:43

aviation would be a complex failure

36:45

for multiple factors come

36:47

together, you know, just the wrong way. And

36:50

the typical type of failure in

36:53

brand new uncertain unknown territory would

36:55

be an intelligent failure because you're

36:57

not fully experimenting. But

36:59

you think about it a little further, it becomes

37:01

clear that you can make a basic failure in

37:03

a lab, you just, you know,

37:06

you accidentally mix up the wrong chemicals.

37:09

You take the wrong chemical off the shelf to do

37:11

your experiment and you don't get the

37:13

result you want. It wasn't because your hypothesis was

37:15

wrong, it's because you made a kind of a

37:17

dumb mistake. And so it

37:19

exists, it's a possibility. But

37:22

I call these, and you can have

37:25

an intelligent failure and a very routine, you know,

37:27

you can vary that recipe to see

37:29

whether it actually tastes better. You

37:32

have a good reason to believe it might, but

37:34

yeah, it comes out not as good, right? So

37:36

that was an intelligent failure. Horse trying

37:38

could have been great, right? It could have been the

37:41

dish of the year. So

37:43

I, you know, I found it

37:46

fun actually to think of examples in

37:48

all nine cells. And

37:51

just to make the point that in a way, part

37:53

of the expertise here is to master

37:56

not only awareness of the failure types,

37:58

but also awareness of the... Untaxed

38:00

and then of you know,

38:02

and then. A. Good. We

38:04

have this invitation to do as as

38:07

best we can to avoid the preventable

38:09

and complex sellers no matter where we

38:11

are, through vigilance, through training, through teamwork,

38:14

and to push ourselves to have more

38:16

of the intelligence failures, especially in new

38:18

territory, but possibly anywhere. How does trust

38:21

find this and I have a couple

38:23

different courses for you? But okay, I'm

38:25

like I'm really interested. For example, in

38:28

the intersection of trust and vulnerability. Trust

38:30

and mistakes. Trust. Psychological Safety Senior trust

38:32

comes up. In. Everything.

38:35

So. True for failure. I

38:37

mean I would imagine that the

38:40

more cross you have our, the

38:42

more trusted team has amongst each

38:44

other and with their leaders, the

38:46

more of the intelligent failures you

38:48

would see. Where is that? There's

38:50

not a lot of problem. Maybe

38:52

you'd see more of the basic

38:54

or complex because people aren't speaking

38:56

up. there are not sharing their

38:58

nine talking about what they've learned.

39:00

They're just. you know, A

39:02

trying to hide things sign of in their

39:04

of them. Anxious. Eight, They're

39:07

anxious and see I feel more at

39:09

risk for making mistakes. Yeah, that's right.

39:11

Had his first play a role in

39:13

in failure. To. Trust is such

39:15

a big. It's.

39:18

To big word: an hour Or it. Me

39:20

It means M. It means at least

39:22

three different things like one beings. Do

39:24

I trust her intentions? Do I expect.

39:26

That you will behave in a in

39:28

a. Trustworthy way as you said you

39:31

would I'd and another another very different

39:33

meaning, as do I trust her competence

39:35

now that like that has no character.

39:38

Aspersion at all. Maybe you just haven't

39:41

been doing this activity very. Long have you

39:43

haven't had as much training. Or in

39:45

this activities as. I would

39:47

need you to have to fully trust

39:49

you. To. Do this for a

39:51

challenge is the challenging piece of equipment or

39:54

something so. So I think there's

39:56

relationships. On both of those dimensions with

39:58

failure at because if if. If

40:00

I decide to trust. You prematurely to

40:02

do something without supervision that probably

40:05

I should know that that's on

40:07

me. My, it's my error and

40:09

if I might have just inadvertently

40:11

led to. The. The

40:14

closing of a failure that could have

40:16

been avoided of interest. But if I

40:18

am your time that interpersonal trust you

40:20

were trying Babbel Shower of adding some

40:22

more of it. The better at the

40:24

more. Were willing to be transparent and

40:26

honest with each other and believe strongly

40:28

that you won't hold it against me.

40:30

is that I have these shortcomings or

40:32

that I had to ask you that

40:34

dumb question Or you know that I

40:37

admit it, something didn't seem to be

40:39

working over here. Red, Then we're going

40:41

to beat the we're going to be

40:43

a more robust. Safe Failure

40:45

Proof team. That if we didn't

40:47

have that. Trust That interpersonal trust? Yeah, I'm

40:49

I'm glad you brought up for the

40:51

competencies. I talk a lot about that

40:53

My book too, because. You

40:56

know, to vulnerability. Elites.

40:59

What I have fun or choose to

41:01

pure you think about is the you

41:03

know I get frequently. Ah so you're

41:05

reading a book about vulnerability. Why should

41:07

we be vulnerable at work and I

41:09

was so people we should. Instead we

41:11

should lead with vulnerability. Which is this

41:13

idea of bringing together vulnerability and competence.

41:15

Connection, and yeah, competence and what. I

41:17

find it too often and we see

41:19

a lot of pundits talk about this.

41:21

Lot of books have been written about

41:23

this were talk about mistakes, talk about

41:25

your failures. but the more Ceo the

41:27

interview the more they tell. Me if

41:29

you just talk about the mistakes

41:31

and failures in challenges and struggles

41:34

without talking about what you're learning,

41:36

how you're trying to improve. I

41:38

you're trying to close the gap

41:40

with says the happen is that

41:42

vulnerability will undermine your competence. It

41:44

will undermine your status, your perception

41:46

of leader debt and see you

41:48

have to have right. Here's

41:51

what I made a mistake vs. I. I made

41:53

a mistake. But here's what I learned and here's

41:55

what I'm gonna grind. Make sure, right? it doesn't

41:57

happen again. And we don't talk about benefits. We

42:00

just know see the I mean ability

42:02

to kind of fun? No. Three.

42:04

It's one of those things, at least. That

42:06

either that you might be tempted to say where that

42:09

goes without. Saying Bills once you say that

42:11

goes without saying you're. In trouble because it's

42:13

always worth saying as the more the more

42:15

clarity the better and and so if if

42:17

if leaders out there have a have heard

42:19

the message to I gotta get out there

42:21

and talk about my mistakes and I should

42:23

probably do that all day long. Pause.

42:27

By they they've heard. The.

42:29

Wrong message or they've heard a

42:31

message and then you know over

42:34

to lease on the the would

42:36

watch. I think the powerful. Advice

42:38

is be. Willing. To

42:40

talk about those. Frankly,

42:44

Not. Overly. Common

42:46

moments where he did make a mistake

42:48

or we did get something wrong or

42:50

you did experience a failure of because

42:52

you are. Almost

42:55

by definition, and with your role in

42:57

your position, On advertising your

43:00

successes day in and day

43:02

out. And been with you you got

43:04

to where you are we we without even

43:06

thinking about we announce that that the good

43:08

news of the company or the good news.

43:11

Of the teams that is in know

43:13

that the success doesn't need like. A

43:15

Pr agent it out since she gets

43:17

out there and an analysis herself of

43:20

rather happily and easily all the time

43:22

and people are. It's people are often

43:24

unaware of the degree to which they

43:26

are. Sort of. In

43:29

a fine to put a positive. Face

43:31

forward, but they're often unaware of the

43:33

degree to which they're. Positivity.

43:37

Answered a single to I did everything. Right

43:39

now making it difficult for other

43:41

people to be honest and transparent

43:43

about what's really happening out there.

43:47

Are hidden somewhere we talked about the

43:49

competencies know why but still plays such

43:51

a crucial role. On for last fifteen

43:53

twenty minutes or so I wanted to

43:55

jump to some action items and some

43:57

specific things that we can do and.

44:00

Them are organizations to implement some of

44:02

the the concepts and ideas from the

44:04

books and I thought we could open

44:06

up that discussing them by looking at.

44:10

What? To do when you fail. So.

44:12

And and kinda like very toxic rewrite

44:14

like if I fail and I'm an

44:16

individual contributor vs if I'm the leader

44:18

of a team and somebody on my

44:20

team failed like you do. for example,

44:22

a post mortem you do a one

44:24

on one like what would you actually

44:26

do when the failures been spotted and

44:28

identify from an individual level and from

44:30

a leadership level. Already

44:34

my conversation with Amy Edmondson can t

44:36

news you are not going to want

44:38

to miss this because we're going to

44:41

actually take allow the concepts the season

44:43

sharing around how to fail well and

44:45

talk about how you actually do it.

44:48

So the first part of a conversation

44:50

really educational exploring with these teams are

44:52

and this bonus episode for subscribers on

44:54

Subs deck is really going to unpack

44:57

this and teach me how to implement

44:59

these things specifically we're going to go

45:01

over I'm what new do when. You

45:04

fail so would you do when

45:06

you feel as an individual and

45:08

what you do if your leader

45:10

of a team and somebody on

45:12

your team. Sales were also than

45:14

a look at some more techniques

45:16

such as learning over knowing we

45:18

framing and this idea of stopped

45:20

challenge and shoes and what that

45:22

framework looks like and how you

45:24

can apply that into this signs

45:26

of feeling. Well this is only

45:29

going to be available for paid

45:31

subscribers on Great Leadership.subset.com Again, that

45:33

is great. Leadership That sadistic.com And when

45:35

you subscribe Bear Beginning in one of

45:37

these episodes every single week as well

45:39

as my series called the Five Minute

45:42

Leader Race Here Quick claiming that Leadership

45:44

Pacs and In Depth Week we'd guys

45:46

written by yours Truly seeking get all

45:48

of that by heading over to Great

45:51

Leadership That subject.com Thanks for tuning in,

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