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You're listening to Grievecast with me,

0:21

Carry Adloyd.

0:24

Grievecast is a place to talk, share, and

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laugh about the tequila human process

0:29

of death and grief. Each

0:32

week, I talked to a different person, about

0:34

their experiences of grief and death as

0:36

we remember someone that they have lost along

0:38

the way. Whether it was a long

0:40

time ago, were you just during the up.

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Welcome to Griefcast.

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1:37

Hey, greasers. I hope you're having an okay

1:39

week wherever you are listening. Thank you so much

1:41

for downloading this episode of the grief cast.

1:44

This is season ten of the grief

1:46

cast. I know, absolutely staggering.

1:48

Thank you. so much for joining me, continuing

1:51

to join me on this conversation of brief

1:53

and deaf from various people from all walks

1:55

of life. I have mentioned it

1:57

a few times, but I have a book coming out.

1:59

It is coming out in January. It's

2:02

called you are not alone, as

2:04

I say, at the end of every episode. and it

2:06

is published by Blüttonenk. Now,

2:08

you can pre order it in all the usual places.

2:10

If you think you are probably going to buy the

2:12

book anyway, please do a pre

2:14

order. If you you don't mind. It's very

2:16

helpful for me and the book

2:18

it really helps the various

2:20

book places know that this book is a popular

2:23

book. So I would hugely appreciated

2:25

if you've ever found the podcast used for or helpful

2:27

in any way and you think, yeah, I am gonna

2:29

buy that book, then a pre order would

2:31

be massively appreciated. If

2:34

you've already done it, thank you so much.

2:36

I genuinely yeah. I'm

2:38

really excited about it. I am really excited. It's

2:40

everything I've learned from the show and quotes

2:43

from the show and and all that sort of thing,

2:45

all put down in one place and I I thought

2:47

it's useful. So

2:50

that's anyway, that's that bit done.

2:52

Thank you for listening. This

2:54

week, I'm very excited to talk

2:57

to the credible. The amazing.

2:59

She's she's one of the grief elders,

3:01

guys. She's in the gang. It is the fabulous

3:04

writer, Kathy Renson Brink. Kathy

3:07

is just I mean, she's

3:09

up there for me, you know, with the

3:11

Julius Samuel, the Helen McDonald's,

3:13

you know, the Tim Amanda and

3:15

Gozier DiCai books

3:17

about grief that you need to read.

3:20

Incredible memoir, the last act of love,

3:22

came out a few years ago now, and it is Yeah.

3:24

It's one of my favorite

3:25

grief books. It's just

3:27

She just she just gets it. Her writing gets

3:29

it. She's written lots of other books as well,

3:31

a manual for heartache, which is

3:33

a broader look at not

3:36

just grief other things happened to survive

3:38

this world. Dear reader, the comfort

3:40

and joy of books, and she has a novel as well. Everyone

3:42

is still alive. and a book about

3:44

writing as well. I'll write it all down. She's

3:48

she's brilliant. She's amazing. I've really

3:50

loved her for a long time and I was a

3:52

bit Yeah,

3:54

loft. It's gonna work a big of really

3:56

loft when she agreed to come on the show. Kathy

3:59

Cairnan talked to me about her brother,

4:01

Matty, who the book

4:03

the last act of love is all about. And,

4:06

yeah, we just we just had a goof.

4:09

I hope you enjoy.

4:19

So who are we remembering today?

4:20

We are remembering my

4:23

brother, Matthew.

4:23

Matthew. Matthew. Matthew. And

4:26

I know I've you have written

4:28

about Matthew in your I think it was your

4:30

first book. Wasn't it? Yes. That's

4:32

right. Yeah. The last set club. So

4:34

How long ago did Matty

4:36

die? Well, a very long time

4:38

ago. I mean, it's complicated because he

4:40

was knocked over by a car.

4:42

And then he never again consciousness,

4:44

but he was alive for another eight years

4:46

-- Mhmm. -- which was just awful

4:49

said, I never feel when

4:51

I think about how long ago it was, I

4:53

tend to date it for myself from

4:56

you know, the night when everything changed was the

4:58

night when he was knocked over. by

5:00

the car. And then the

5:00

next eight years were

5:02

basically a really long death.

5:04

So that was in nineteen

5:07

ninety, and I was seventeen.

5:09

And I'm now forty nine. So I'm not really

5:11

good at the suns, but I think if I've done the suns, I was

5:13

thinking about it this morning. So it's thirty

5:15

two years ago. Wow.

5:18

And then in lots of ways,

5:20

does feel completely

5:22

immediate. Yeah. Like, it feels

5:24

like it was sort of nanoseconds ago god.

5:27

Yeah. It's interesting. Isn't it? So

5:29

how

5:29

old was he when he when the accident

5:32

happened? He

5:33

was sixteen. So he was a year younger than

5:35

me. Well, he's thirteen months

5:37

younger than me. I used to like to say thirteen

5:39

months younger than me and nine inches taller.

5:44

And he was very

5:46

he was really funny

5:47

apart from everything else. He was sort

5:49

of smart and funny And, yeah,

5:52

I mean, I just loved him very much in a

5:53

really uncomplicated way because, of course, I

5:56

didn't

5:56

I didn't know. I didn't almost know then

5:58

that I was I

5:59

didn't, you

6:00

know, I didn't wasn't particularly aware in lots

6:02

of ways how

6:03

fortunate I was. I wouldn't have

6:05

said if someone had asked me the morning

6:07

of the accident,

6:09

probably would have I don't know. Yeah. I'd

6:11

have probably been pretty

6:14

occupied with

6:16

I don't know what my boyfriend doing that annoyed

6:18

me or whatever I've said, like, I've

6:20

got this great life with these

6:22

wonderful parents and we live in this pub in York

6:24

show got this amazing brother and

6:26

everything is so brilliant. That's one of the things

6:28

about grief. Isn't it? I think that recurs

6:30

again and again and again people say,

6:32

I didn't know how happy it

6:34

was. I didn't know how lucky it was. No. No. So I

6:36

didn't really know that. And

6:37

then that's when I think if I think of it. I've

6:39

come to think of it actually as

6:41

you

6:41

know, as a guillotine, as a blade,

6:43

as a separator that that

6:46

that that night he got knocked over

6:48

and life as it was

6:50

just because it was just different thing

6:52

from then on.

6:53

It's so I

6:55

mean, yeah, grief is, like you

6:57

said, I think guillotine is beautiful

7:00

and hard metaphor, but true.

7:03

your life is so completely different,

7:05

but especially when it comes with your situation,

7:07

when it is a sudden accident. Because it

7:09

literally, like, that from that

7:11

moment, whereas I think my dad died of

7:13

cancer. So you've got like all

7:15

this other, like, when you got the

7:17

diagnosis and then when they got sicker and then when

7:19

they it's a sort of like you said, this

7:21

slower process, but you yeah. Because

7:23

of what happened to Matti, it's such a, I

7:25

guess, a clear point in the timeline of

7:27

when everything disappeared. I

7:30

thought what you're saying is so interesting about

7:33

just happiness because it it's

7:35

a real cliche and I

7:37

I don't It's really hard sometimes I think

7:40

you just can't know how happy you are. Okay?

7:42

Until something new. Until something goes, could you

7:44

think, oh, could I've done something differently? fish at

7:46

seventeen. You just can't really appreciate these

7:48

things. You can do that because you don't know what it's

7:50

like for any alternative.

7:51

No, you don't. And I think you can't.

7:53

as well. I kind of I don't think and

7:55

I don't think it's almost like appropriate.

7:58

I don't want to

7:59

run around to there

8:02

was a stage where I kind of felt like I

8:04

felt like, why did nobody warn me that it

8:06

was possible that lies might do things?

8:08

Why did I not know? How do I

8:10

not know? And then the

8:12

more

8:12

I think about life,

8:14

the more I think that

8:16

that's almost the point of it. It sort of has

8:18

its way with and you

8:20

you can't know, nor would you want to anticipate.

8:22

You know, think about

8:24

it a lot of my son. I've got a son who's twelve

8:26

and of

8:26

course he does know much more about

8:28

death and disaster

8:29

than I did partly because

8:32

I think

8:32

I finished the book

8:35

when

8:35

he was four. And

8:36

so because, you know, my

8:39

professional life then became about,

8:41

you

8:41

know, talk about what that book was, and

8:43

especially because of the pandemic and doing Zooms

8:45

a whole. because he comes to

8:47

festivals and he meets people.

8:49

And so he's just very

8:51

aware, but he's aware people die and

8:53

people are sad and he knows all that stuff.

8:55

But again, I don't I don't want him to

8:57

I don't want

8:58

him to almost like know it

8:59

too

9:00

much if you see what I

9:01

mean. I don't I don't want to feel that

9:03

our

9:03

job with our children is prepare them for

9:05

the for the terrible things happen.

9:09

It's hard. Is

9:09

it? Yeah. It's really hard.

9:11

I can really, really relate

9:14

to that. because I've got, yeah,

9:16

two small kids. And I

9:19

obviously do a podcast for her death, and they and

9:21

she they can't well, the younger one

9:23

doesn't have but the old one

9:25

slightly knows. I mean, and she

9:27

knows that obviously my that she doesn't

9:29

have a grandpa and he's dead and then my

9:31

husband, both his parents, I did.

9:33

Mhmm. So she's aware. But

9:36

I I found I

9:38

can't lie about it. So I like I

9:40

I worry exactly like you're saying that I'm

9:42

over preparing for her. But, like, in that terms of,

9:44

like, when I hear a parent say, like, I'll never leave

9:46

you, I think, poof, well, yeah. You

9:48

hope so. Yeah. I hope you don't worry

9:50

about it. I can't it sticks in my

9:52

throat, and I always find I have to say things

9:54

like, I will do my best not to leave you,

9:56

but, like, you know, I love you. That's what

9:58

matters. Like, I try and steer it that way, but

10:00

I can't promise the things that I

10:02

feel like I was promised. Everything will

10:04

be fine. Of course, nothing bad will

10:06

ever happen. because my parents were like, oh,

10:08

don't be silly, you know? Everybody's

10:10

fine. And they also were unaware

10:12

of what, you know, what

10:13

found the corner. Yeah. I think that's so interesting. Yeah.

10:15

I think he's I I mean, I just it's a really big

10:18

thing for me. I don't lie to Matt. So if he

10:20

I I don't force conversations on him. But if

10:22

he asks me anything ever, I've tried to

10:24

find an age appropriate way to tell him the

10:26

truth. Yeah. And and I think it's

10:28

really important. And a friend of mine said

10:30

actually that he changed what after I think I'd

10:32

written about this somewhere. I can't remember whether it's in the

10:34

first book or in one of the others, but a friend of mine who'd

10:36

read that said

10:38

that it changed the way he spoke

10:40

to his kids because I think his youngest child at

10:42

the time was very nervous, kept saying to him

10:44

dad promised me he won't die, and he kept

10:46

saying to my promise, I promise. then you read the

10:48

thing I wrote and then started saying, actually,

10:49

that's not within my

10:50

control, but what I promise is I really love you. And

10:53

actually, that lack love does last

10:55

even if something really

10:56

bad happened. And

10:59

I mean,

10:59

I don't know. I'm not saying I'm right about it, but

11:01

I just think it's an important I

11:04

feel it's an important principle. And I

11:06

think it's again, what how are we

11:08

serving our children? I think

11:10

it's like a really broad thing about the way we bring

11:12

up our that we feel that in the face of loads of

11:14

evidence to the country, we've got to sort

11:16

of sell them this perfect life from

11:18

plastic dinif dolls and fluffy

11:20

toys and nothing's ever gonna go wrong.

11:22

We're surrounded by loads of evidence at

11:24

the moment, but loads of things go

11:26

wrong. Things are really unfair. And I think

11:28

it's kind of and they

11:30

know it doesn't serve them to

11:32

pretend about it. My

11:34

my father-in-law died when Matt was about

11:36

eighteen months and in some way to think it's quite good that he

11:38

was, you know, he was at a funeral before he

11:40

really knew. And it was

11:42

quite cute and there's this he got

11:44

confused. So it's he's

11:46

Dutch, my husband. So Oprah,

11:48

grandpa was what Matt called his brand

11:50

name. Oprah. And he

11:52

would say again in that way that

11:54

kids do that very

11:55

direct. So Oprah's dead.

11:57

Yes.

11:57

Then there was this misunderstanding because

12:00

he thought Oprah was in Devon. So

12:04

that was good. And what I thought at that funeral,

12:07

actually, again, which was in Holland, and I felt that the

12:09

Dutch were were less squeamish about

12:11

debt than we would have been, you know, like my

12:13

father-in-law was in the apps for a few days,

12:15

which would have happened in this country a

12:17

couple of generations ago.

12:18

Yeah. It doesn't anymore. And it was,

12:20

you know, again, it it was

12:22

weird. that he was there, but it was also kind

12:24

of

12:25

beautiful. And then they, you know,

12:27

my son and his little

12:29

cousins, walt

12:30

behind the coffin and I thought

12:32

actually may It's not just that we shouldn't

12:34

try to pretend the children of death doesn't happen,

12:36

but actually their function in this is that they

12:38

are cheering us all up. You

12:40

know? Yeah. You know, while I left in the East

12:42

Joanne was scuttering rose petals and there

12:44

there was something about the presence of

12:46

the children. that

12:47

I thought was really beautiful.

12:49

because, again, it is that thing. Isn't it? But it

12:51

does I think

12:53

it was a real tendency to treat death

12:56

and breathe.

12:57

That's kind of what inconvenient party

12:59

poopers, you know. Mhmm. This isn't the consumerist

13:01

promise. You

13:02

know, have have this happen? This

13:04

isn't supposed to be happening to me. I'm

13:06

supposed to be, you know, I'm supposed to be going

13:08

off in this direction. I don't want this

13:10

to happen because I'd be promised that if I

13:12

just like buy the right stuff, everything will

13:14

be okay. Yeah. And,

13:17

you know, not

13:18

trim. Yeah. I think you you just

13:21

go really nicely

13:23

and I think well, I I'm always trying to get across

13:25

when when I do talks

13:27

or anyone ask me about it, not in the club, but in

13:29

inverted commas of, like, you're not saying every

13:31

day is doomed and awful.

13:33

But, like, that it will it's gonna

13:35

happen. It just is gonna happen. I

13:37

think, yeah, the idea of it,

13:39

party free mess of, like, like,

13:42

Like, it's

13:42

not you can control or

13:45

something unfortunate that happens to people who have

13:47

bad luck, you know. Like, if you don't

13:49

they didn't read the right book or do the right thing or

13:51

they weren't careful as well. Like, we love to

13:53

believe that if we follow all these magical

13:56

rules, we'll be okay. And the idea

13:58

that it's like, yeah, just just fucking

13:59

happens. And

14:02

kids at Funeral is interesting. My mother-in-law,

14:04

my what's the

14:06

word? Nissan gives her cousin. She's

14:08

not because my niece was there

14:11

and it was tricky. She I think she

14:13

was about six and it was hard, but

14:15

also I agree with you. It

14:17

it offered Sanso Corning, but

14:19

it did offer a hope of like, oh, there

14:21

is life, isn't there? And there's joy,

14:23

and there's a person here who doesn't really

14:25

understand, so it's running around treating like a

14:27

party. Mhmm. And I think

14:29

what that does is it

14:32

reminds you of the two truths of grief that you

14:34

can be devastated, and at the same time,

14:36

still enjoy something. Like, it it doesn't it's

14:38

not a permanent state. And when you have

14:40

a kid, if you know, well, obviously, it's very

14:42

personal, not all children would want to

14:44

do it understand it. But I think it is

14:46

like you said, the the idea of not being squeamish

14:48

about it, which I do think, yeah, particularly British

14:51

English culture her is Mhmm.

14:53

And it's not just as I've spoken before,

14:55

like, I went to Sweden and did a gig there

14:57

for grief cast and they were worse than

14:59

we are. That would be awful. Like, they just

15:01

couldn't even say the name of the podcast. It

15:03

was like, oh, couldn't he? because I was like -- Mhmm. -- sorry.

15:05

I was at heartened. It wasn't just us. it's

15:07

nice to know that the Dutch are

15:09

more more on the other side

15:11

of like, you know, it happens. Yeah.

15:13

But I think Dutch people and general have

15:15

that sort of practical much are a fact vibe

15:17

about them. I'm half Irish as well, so I've been

15:19

to collect a lot of Irish females and the

15:21

way my dad is again around

15:24

it. Though I do that thing, I never know

15:26

I didn't really go up surfing by other

15:28

Irish people, say, like, my daddy is Ireland

15:30

for me and Ireland. Yeah. He's my data. I mean,

15:32

clients think that, like, everybody in Ireland is like

15:34

him. They might not be Maybe he's just

15:37

very emotional and likes laughing and

15:39

crying about.

15:41

But I think When

15:43

I think back to my own childhood, you know.

15:45

So my my mom's dad died when I

15:47

was nine, and I remember it's so strongly.

15:49

I remember her crying in the bath, and I remember

15:51

us talking about it. and I

15:53

remember and again, now

15:55

when I look back on it, but not that I

15:57

think she was particularly aware of it, but again, she

15:59

was

15:59

sort of kind of slightly

16:01

training me for when I had to talk

16:03

to grief

16:03

about, you know, when I had to talk to

16:05

my child

16:06

about grieve. And

16:08

then I remember again, I remember my

16:10

dad's, you know, someone in Ireland died

16:12

really, like, suddenly and really

16:14

sad and we went to the

16:16

funeral and I remember I think I was fourteen then

16:18

and I remember my dad's was

16:20

just my

16:21

dad was distraught. But again, I

16:23

didn't think it was bad thing for me to

16:25

see that. I don't think I don't

16:27

think that was a bad thing. And

16:29

again, it's a big Irish funeral.

16:31

open

16:32

coughing and loads

16:34

of people wailing. And

16:35

I remember this thing where there

16:38

was a sit there were so many people. It's they're

16:40

overwhelming. And I've slightly got

16:42

almost like it was like almost a a

16:44

crowd. Yeah. And I kind

16:46

of all

16:46

this, like, got kind of caught in this crowd

16:48

and I've sort of started being carried

16:50

away almost for my cousins.

16:52

And then I remember my one of

16:54

my cousins, he he

16:56

sort of reached out and he said,

16:58

She's family, and there was this rope

17:01

surrounding the fam there was

17:02

this rope kind of dividing the family from

17:04

the -- Wow.

17:05

-- sort of general mourners and well

17:07

wishes. He's a cheese family and then someone

17:09

kind of ushered me the other side of the

17:11

rope. And then

17:12

that really became a metaphor for me

17:14

forever, this thing

17:15

of whether or not you're behind the

17:17

rope. where where are

17:19

you? Oh, wow. Yeah. Where are

17:21

you in the setup? Am I because I

17:24

remember thinking, something in me

17:26

felt a bit, you

17:28

know, I knew I saw I

17:30

knew I wasn't affected by this. So

17:32

although I was allowed behind the road, I knew this I

17:34

knew this wasn't I knew this wasn't mine tragedy. I

17:36

knew it wasn't her tragedy for me like

17:38

it was for her children.

17:41

And it wasn't tragedy for me that it was for her

17:42

siblings. I knew it wasn't a tragedy for me that it

17:44

was for my dad.

17:45

And and then, of course, and

17:47

I really remember it when when

17:51

Maty was in October, I remember at some point

17:53

very quickly, I thought, well, I'm I'm

17:55

behind the rope now. This is I

17:57

really am behind the rope now.

18:00

And I

18:00

think it's Yeah. It's

18:02

that thing, isn't it? But then you can't You

18:04

know, you can't undo it. Can you?

18:06

You kind of just

18:07

You know, you're in the club, you're behind

18:10

the rope. throughout the green light, you know. I

18:12

really

18:12

like that because I've

18:15

often heard the expression of our views of, like, it's like

18:17

a bomb blast. and like sometimes you're at the

18:19

epicenter and you're looking at it and sometimes you're

18:21

like, oh, I heard it. Yeah. Oh, I was

18:23

around the corner and I'm sorry, I'm scared,

18:25

I'm afraid, and I'm

18:27

affected, but I'm not, as you said,

18:29

affected and yeah. Like, I've

18:31

definitely yeah. Different Greece. You

18:33

do you do sort know where you're at from the epicenter.

18:35

Don't you? because you can be like, oh, I'm very sad and

18:37

I knew them and that's sad. Oh, I'm yeah.

18:40

If it's you know, I'm behind

18:42

them. I am really no one's no.

18:44

I'm not even close to being carried off until

18:46

now. Like, I'm by the

18:48

coffin. Yeah. Again, I

18:50

think it

18:51

it kind of believes

18:52

he was a brief

18:54

person to kind of have a sense

18:56

of that

18:57

like Yeah. I've had you

19:00

know, I've been in a few

19:01

situations in more recent years where I

19:04

just supported someone who is behind

19:06

the rope. and

19:07

it's been very clear in my head that in this

19:10

situation, I'm

19:11

not you know,

19:12

how I feel about it doesn't really matter. My

19:14

job is to support this person who's

19:17

in this room. Mhmm.

19:18

But I mean, because so many things about death

19:21

are so funny, aren't they? And I do think that one

19:23

of the things I mean, funerals are very

19:25

funny. One of the things that funny

19:27

is that there

19:28

is kind of a terrible humor when because

19:30

you do get those people that just sort of

19:33

overassume Yeah. Want to make

19:35

you all about that? Oh,

19:37

the the the professional motor -- Yeah.

19:39

-- turns up. Yes. And and

19:41

and I remember that in my dance

19:43

team just like, some people, like, unable to

19:46

speak to I in such a state,

19:48

and me being, like, not crying,

19:50

and and, you know, and me thinking,

19:52

Well, I think that's what I'm supposed to do.

19:54

I I that's my you've

19:56

got my costume on. Can I have it?

19:59

But you know, you know

19:59

what it's like as a human. If someone is more

20:02

emotional, often you become less emotional because

20:04

you're like, oh, you seem very upset. Maybe

20:06

someone should get her a t or something.

20:08

I'm like, your dad's story. He's

20:10

like, oh, you're okay.

20:12

They're like, no. Just he was so

20:14

wonderful. He's like, yeah. I know. He

20:16

was my Okay.

20:18

It's very And I

20:20

think, actually, we've talked about the situation where,

20:22

like, the further away you are, it's

20:24

easier to cry. Like, often, like, we've said, like, people lose

20:27

their emotion. These are shit at, like, a

20:29

pet dying or someone. They didn't know

20:31

very well because like, gives you this, like,

20:33

safe space to go, oh, all the grief can

20:35

come out. But actually, often what you're

20:37

dealing with, but I'm sure you must have had with Matti's,

20:39

like, shock

20:39

of, like, what what just

20:41

happened? Did you did you I mean, he was so

20:43

he was on life support.

20:45

Is that right? For eight years? What was

20:47

the situation? Yeah. So he he never

20:49

again can't business, really. So

20:51

he was in a it's called a

20:54

persistent vegetative state, which is just a

20:56

horrible collection of words.

20:58

But basically, just means

21:00

really brain damage. Basically, his

21:02

brain damage as it's possible to be without

21:04

being dead, really.

21:06

And so and in

21:08

the early years.

21:10

We obviously had a lot of hope that

21:12

he would in somehow he

21:13

would like to

21:14

get better. So we Yeah.

21:16

So in in funny kind of way. That wasn't

21:19

oh, I don't know.

21:20

It was it was

21:21

a very active time.

21:23

Yeah.

21:23

And then later on. It

21:25

was something about four years in for

21:28

me when I suddenly I just realized it

21:30

had a flash, which I think I think it was

21:32

because I'd been to been

21:34

to France for a few months and

21:37

then came home and

21:38

walked in. We'd like built this purpose

21:41

built

21:41

extension to the pub

21:42

so that he could live in there and I just

21:44

walked in and I just thought actually, like,

21:46

I think the

21:47

distance just basically

21:49

let

21:49

me see how fuck fuck it all was. And and

21:51

and just me and in that moment, I

21:54

just knew, like, well, he

21:55

wouldn't want this -- Mhmm. --

21:57

which had always been again, that's

22:00

something

22:00

I feel squeamish about, actually.

22:02

saying it's what he would have wanted. Like

22:05

in general, you know, that again,

22:07

I think sometimes people claim to speak

22:09

people claiming to speak for the dead or

22:11

for those who can't

22:12

feet for themselves. I think they had probably always

22:14

been a bit overscrupulous about not

22:16

wanting to speculate, but it was

22:18

really clear to me in that moment that this

22:20

this

22:20

is just wasn't It's just was

22:22

well, it's just sort of manned,

22:25

really. But we kind

22:27

of carried on for a bit. because

22:29

there was my parents and me and we

22:31

all, came to a decision at a

22:33

different time about it.

22:35

Mhmm.

22:35

And then

22:36

eventually, after another couple of years, we

22:38

went through the family call and

22:40

how to petition effectively. I

22:42

can't remember what the word is. Basically, get

22:45

people agree that to his thought that his life

22:47

could end. And that was

22:49

again they they do it

22:51

differently

22:51

now because it I think we were

22:53

the I think we were the twelfth

22:54

case

22:57

because nobody I

22:58

don't see this in any way than blaming anyone that

23:00

involved. Nobody knew what they were doing. And of course,

23:02

it's interesting, isn't it? How even psychological awareness

23:05

has moved

23:05

on so much? think. One of, you

23:07

know, one of the good things about societies is

23:09

we've got a much better idea of what you

23:11

shouldn't shouldn't ask people. So I

23:13

I mean, I think I was one

23:15

of the boxes. Now I really screwed up by having to

23:17

write down. I'll have to David that one of

23:19

my brothers have died. And I think

23:21

I think now they just don't

23:24

because you feel really complicit. That's the thing. And

23:27

I did think he should die. But

23:28

again, what's I mean, you just have to do

23:30

that. Mhmm. And

23:32

without any kind of

23:34

care.

23:34

Without anyone else saying, this is

23:36

a complex

23:37

situation. It's not surprising. No. You

23:39

you don't mean

23:40

it. You're not saying it's like

23:42

of Yeah. If starts someone to hold your hand and

23:44

be -- Yeah. -- the law is making you

23:46

do this. But -- Yeah. -- technology is

23:48

is also at play here because we

23:50

have like you said, we now have the ability

23:52

to keep someone in that state, which a hundred

23:55

years ago wouldn't have happened. And -- Yeah. -- there's

23:57

there's so much stuff that's yeah,

23:59

that a human being

23:59

should not have to make that might

24:02

get down. Yeah. I think I I think it's as a

24:04

cool and unusual. That that's the thing

24:06

that we've our technological

24:08

ability outstrips are

24:11

moral ethical, legal,

24:13

emotional ability. And then I

24:16

think we were kind of

24:17

caught in the you know,

24:19

being in those early days, but just what

24:21

they were just wasn't any sense

24:23

of the potential

24:24

impact of actually of of doing it,

24:27

you know. Yeah. And I think

24:29

now well, I know

24:30

that now when it happens, there's more

24:32

support for people than someone would

24:33

have said. You

24:35

know, someone would have said to

24:37

my parents, send that nice daughter of yours for

24:40

some therapy. She's falling apart as you

24:42

go mental, do something with that.

24:43

She doesn't know what do

24:45

with himself. So nobody did say

24:47

that. And I've just tried to kind

24:50

of

24:51

Carry on. Kind of being, you know, genuinely

24:54

surprised that I

24:56

did

24:56

I did feel I mean, I've

24:59

never doubted it was the right thing to

25:00

do. Right? Just to completely know that.

25:02

So there wasn't any

25:04

doubt. And the other thing is,

25:07

well well, I was

25:07

which turned out not to

25:08

be true. I really thought because I

25:11

had grieved so much. I mean,

25:13

sometimes it felt like I'd spent

25:15

eight years pretty

25:16

much in tears or drum -- Yeah. -- which

25:18

isn't quite true. But, I mean,

25:19

I kind of I'd when I

25:21

wrote my first book at you, I remember saying the

25:26

thing about being repetitive.

25:28

because basically and then I got drunk and cried myself to

25:30

sleep. Was just that the thing I could

25:32

say pretty much every

25:33

day for eight years.

25:35

Oh,

25:35

I can't I thought I must be empty. I

25:37

kept thinking I was gonna I kept thinking

25:39

the reservoir. The internal reservoir

25:42

of not being can't do anymore. There can't be

25:44

anything left. They just can't. Yeah. And I

25:46

was there. You know, and then I was like,

25:49

oh, and and also that

25:51

it that it was new that there was a new testament

25:53

to this

25:53

grief of not having him

25:55

in the world.

25:58

and not knowing not knowing what to

26:00

not knowing what to

26:01

do with that. because for me,

26:03

I think

26:04

writing my book about

26:05

it was such significant things. So I've

26:07

never I've just never been able

26:09

to almost, like, get out from under

26:11

it. I found it's such

26:12

a -- Yeah. -- all encompassing,

26:15

oppressive,

26:16

thing. And so writing

26:17

my book of things was was again

26:20

complex, but really good

26:22

thing. I learned a lot, lots more about it because

26:24

of writing my book. And then that and

26:26

actually then had learned more really good

26:29

therapy. It

26:29

feels more in the past than it

26:32

ever has, but it

26:33

still also feels

26:35

in

26:36

lots of ways.

26:38

very present to me. But I've I've

26:40

reconciled with that as well. I've accepted

26:42

that I think it's that thing of I think I

26:44

used to hope that I would somehow be

26:46

restored factory settings -- Yeah. -- that I can be

26:48

rebooted in that. because, like, again, one of

26:50

the very unhelpful things people say about grief,

26:52

all that, you know, times a great

26:54

healing,

26:54

and it'll take a year and all that sort of

26:57

stuff. And I

26:57

realized now that that none of

26:59

that's particular IIIII live in

27:02

grief as a linear business toll.

27:04

No. No. Not

27:05

at all. No. So and

27:07

it's really in this yeah. I mean, oh, god.

27:09

I just I really feel for

27:11

you because not only is this a really

27:13

complex situation and unusual. But

27:16

to be seventeen when

27:18

this kicks off as well because I was fifteen

27:20

when my dad died and

27:22

I I know that feeling

27:24

of like, I don't quite

27:26

know what's going on because I'm just not old enough. Yeah.

27:28

I just don't quite know and I don't have the

27:30

words and I have a lot of

27:33

feelings. That's there. But I don't

27:35

really know. And and then you

27:37

sort of think, well, best thing to do is kind. pack

27:39

this all up into a box, I guess. It's

27:41

very messy. Shove it

27:43

down because like nobody wants this

27:45

and and you just so desperate to be normal and

27:47

get back like you said to, you

27:49

know, BC before before death,

27:51

before you knew what all these things

27:53

meant. and to have that extended

27:55

grief for eight years. Like, that's

27:57

really I mean, now, you know, there's all these

27:59

terms of delayed grief and anticipatory grief like

28:01

you must have been having all of all of

28:03

that because he was there. He's not there.

28:05

You're like you said, there's this situation with

28:08

I remember that in the book so vividly of, like,

28:10

you describing the accentuate the extension

28:13

and the, you know, all the machine,

28:15

the mini hospital that you

28:17

create. Yes. And we had that with my

28:19

dad and actually both my

28:21

parents and laws, like, died at

28:23

home. My dad didn't. But it was

28:25

very brief. You know what I mean? It was like they had cancer

28:27

so for like a month as a hospital bed and

28:29

handrails are installed and then suddenly

28:31

they're all taken away again and you're like, oh, a minute

28:34

ago, this oh, okay. Like, but to have that

28:36

for eight years is is a long

28:38

time. It's a long time to carry

28:40

that and To

28:42

start the journey at seventeen, I think is

28:44

is is hard. It's really

28:46

hard. I don't know what a seven kind of

28:48

seventeen year old, but I know from my being

28:50

fifteen of, like, just not just

28:52

not really undershoot. Like, I felt

28:54

like eighty percent really made

28:56

sense. And then there was this other chunk

28:58

because I don't quite know what do you

29:00

mean he's dead. You know what I mean? Like,

29:03

what is that? I know it. I get

29:05

it, but also What?

29:07

because there's a you know, people spend their lives

29:09

wrestling with a concept of death and

29:11

endings and all this. And when you're a teenager, you're

29:13

like, I really don't have the full

29:16

vocab. I haven't downloaded the full application

29:18

yet, so I'd

29:18

like Yeah. Definitely.

29:21

I think that's and I suppose as

29:23

well, I often thought like it's such a

29:26

percentage

29:26

like seventeen when

29:28

he was

29:28

knocked over and then I was twenty five when he

29:31

died. Yes. So out of that

29:32

out of that first twenty five

29:35

years. you know,

29:36

of

29:37

my life, especially when we

29:38

don't really remember the first bit of life, but

29:41

just so much of it

29:43

was is that.

29:44

But I feel that something that

29:46

somehow I didn't know whether it was writing the book or

29:48

it was having the good therapy or whatever, but

29:50

I

29:51

used to get very, I

29:53

don't know, just kind of think.

29:56

I definitely

29:56

have more of a sense of why

29:59

At at one point, like,

29:59

I didn't know anything about myself

30:02

before the age of seventeen. I couldn't

30:04

remember anything about what

30:06

ordinary life had been like. Wow. and I

30:08

couldn't actually remember Matty before.

30:10

I couldn't remember his original self and

30:12

somehow writing the book I feel.

30:15

I I kind of have I've

30:16

got that back and a half. And I remember

30:18

I remember somebody saying to me at some point

30:20

that it was better to have loved and lost and

30:22

never to have loved and told, and I just thought I

30:25

didn't have trim. Mhmm. I

30:26

would tell my brother I've just

30:27

not I I know I just can't I can't

30:30

cope with

30:30

this pain. I just

30:31

Yeah. You know? And I didn't think I'd be

30:33

able to have a child because I didn't think I'd be able to, you know

30:36

and I've got I know the time actually.

30:38

I I mean, I know I would say it's better

30:40

to have loved and

30:41

lost. And I think it's from

30:43

my perspective. I'm really glad that I did have

30:45

my brother for the years that I had him. But, you know,

30:47

it really has taken me a couple of decades to

30:50

get that.

30:50

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And that's that's the

30:52

thing of, like, I think when you're at

30:54

the start of this journey, a

30:57

halo journey, but it is like people say things

30:59

time here, they're like fuck

31:01

you. What how is

31:03

this useful? It's like someone being like, in,

31:05

you're hungry. And you

31:07

know what? In twenty years, I'm gonna give you a sandwich. I'm like,

31:09

great. Right now,

31:11

but I agree. I'm twenty plus years and

31:13

and you can see, oh, what they

31:16

mean is just

31:16

takes a long time to

31:19

feel not healed, but

31:21

to, you know, resolve all those feelings, and to

31:23

feel all the pain, and to put

31:25

it in your life in a way make sense to you and carry

31:27

it and but it's very you know, that doesn't

31:29

make for the snappy barmats that everyone

31:31

wants to lend -- No. -- hand to

31:34

you. And yeah, I can see someone saying better to loved

31:36

and losses. The thing is that and what I'm

31:38

obsessed with is the two truths. Two things exist

31:40

at the same time. Like, I'm very glad

31:43

that I have fifteen years my like, I'm, you know, I've interviewed

31:45

people who have had less. Mhmm. And and

31:47

I feel it does make you think, god,

31:50

I'm lucky in some ways, but know what? I'm also

31:52

sad. I only got fifty days

31:54

altogether. Both those things exist in the

31:56

same breath and think

31:58

sometimes people are so determined to, like,

32:00

say, make the linear narrative

32:02

or, like, this is the truth. So

32:04

it's better that you had him then

32:06

you never had him. You're right. Yeah. But also, I was him. Like,

32:08

they Yeah. They're in the same

32:11

bracket, and and it's all there together. And I

32:13

think that's what happens with time is you're

32:15

able to go, oh, I could I have both

32:17

those feelings. But at the beginning, you're

32:19

like, what's the truth?

32:21

what's the truth? Is it a bad thing they happened? Or I'm lucky that

32:23

it happened? No. I shouldn't feel any

32:25

sadness or I should only

32:27

feel sadness. And I think that is

32:30

something again, given our

32:31

teenage, you know, the nature of our

32:34

teenage selves. That that I think is something

32:36

that comes with wisdom and maturity, isn't it?

32:38

I acknowledge that this is

32:40

true. and this is true and this is true

32:42

rather than, like, this is true. So this can't

32:44

also be true. Yes. Yeah. I

32:45

was so binary with my thinking as a

32:47

team goes, like, this is that's

32:49

who I am. That's like dead

32:52

dead. Dead dead and I don't even I'll never mention

32:54

it again. It doesn't matter. That's

32:56

done. Finish. and then

32:58

you realize, oh, you're not finished. You're never finished. You know, you always keep changing

33:00

and evolving. Yeah.

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34:20

Welcome back to Griefcast with Carrie

34:22

Adloyd. And did

34:24

you say so your son is called?

34:27

I see. Yes, he is. And I didn't I mean, it wasn't my

34:30

intention

34:30

because I've always got to be honest, it's a little

34:32

bit gruesome to call people after

34:34

dead loved ones. And then when we went for the, you know,

34:37

the

34:37

bit where you go from the scan

34:38

and they shit they you know, you know that you've got

34:41

and I've had a miscarriage. So

34:44

The last time I'd gone for a scan, it was to out that the

34:47

baby wasn't there. So it it

34:49

felt very very emotional

34:52

and then just

34:53

at the moment where the

34:56

sonographer

34:57

said,

34:58

that you know

35:00

when I realized everything was okay and it it just utterly

35:04

felt. It just felt like the right thing

35:05

to do really. It's

35:08

also my dads me.

35:10

So again,

35:10

it felt a little bit like

35:13

didn't just feel like

35:15

I'm sort of naming him after my dead brother. What we

35:17

said was we'd call him after both his

35:20

grandfathers and

35:22

Matthew Young. and,

35:24

you know, and also it's my brother's name. A couple

35:26

of times I've wondered whether but

35:28

again, he became a great

35:30

he was a great catalyst really Matt

35:34

for me. exploring it and writing the book, which of course I have no

35:36

intentions to do

35:36

it. Now now now understanding what I

35:38

do about narrative, it's very confusing, but

35:41

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I know that I was gonna write a book

35:44

about it. I definitely have given him a

35:46

different

35:46

name. But he was a because

35:48

one of the things because we say

35:50

I think this is the thing with me and my parents. We talked

35:53

about nothing else but Matti for those eight years. And then after

35:55

that, I think when there was a time

35:57

when he became a sick

35:59

correct. He became a, you know, it was

36:01

all so painful, and we've had a tip turned around. But

36:03

again, it's like an it's like explosion metaphor.

36:06

Again, like we would set off a mine if one

36:08

of

36:08

us accidentally foot

36:10

in some sort of area. And then one

36:12

day, my dad was telling a story

36:14

and really rarely mentioned

36:18

my brother. And

36:18

it was because it was this quite it was this

36:20

time they went to the Houston boating pond and the

36:23

canoe sank and my

36:26

Granny was on the land scene. That's my son-in-law

36:28

in my long scene.

36:29

Shut up, Marlon. My dad was really hung

36:31

over and had been trying to

36:32

get to the pubs. We're alive here and it happened. You

36:35

know? So

36:35

my dad was telling the story, it looked quite funny. And

36:37

then I'm out to the back of the car, and then he looked at

36:39

me, and he said, You said

36:42

then, was there another boy called Matthew?

36:44

And I just thought like,

36:46

oh, the beauty of that and then

36:48

I just said, Yeah. There was. And then

36:50

that was part of me really realizing

36:53

I'd have to come

36:56

up

36:56

with You know, because over the

36:58

years, I so I think the

36:59

other thing as well about something happened to you when

37:01

you're fifteen, seventeen,

37:02

or whatever. People are still

37:04

asking you a lot about your family, aren't we? So I I

37:06

went off to university and everybody

37:08

would say, like, what did you do at

37:10

your a levels? And how many brothers and sisters

37:13

if you got Yeah. They get

37:14

crazy questions. You just you just feel you

37:16

know.

37:16

But over the years, people asked less

37:18

and had worked out an

37:20

answer. So I said, I had a brother. He

37:23

died because I tried just pretending to

37:25

be an only child.

37:28

but that just made me feel really bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

37:30

Once when I said that to someone,

37:32

they said, and it's not it's not made me

37:34

say, I thought, sir. You've

37:36

got

37:36

the air of an only child about

37:38

it. And and it kinda

37:40

proved I just was so taken aback with

37:42

that. I don't I mean, maybe there even maybe it's

37:45

right and loved to come at it. I couldn't even work at

37:47

what that meant. I thought, well, I'm never lying

37:49

again. So I would say, I had a

37:51

brother. He died. And then I

37:53

would quite quickly say, it

37:54

was a long time ago. Yes. Again,

37:57

moving on. Yeah. I'd be taking

37:59

the burden

37:59

on myself of not making the

38:02

other people feel awkward. Yeah.

38:04

So I'd kind of done that. And then

38:05

I realized as Matt got a little

38:08

bit older, that

38:10

that wasn't gonna be enough. You know, that wasn't

38:12

gonna be enough for him and that I was gonna

38:14

have to try and find some words, and

38:16

that

38:16

was probably the start of me.

38:19

managing. That's some words.

38:21

That's incredible. That's incredible.

38:24

I really like yeah. The sentence

38:26

you get is just incredible. It's you just

38:28

you just learn how to Oh, yeah. My dad

38:30

died when I was fifteen. So, like

38:33

and I would just finish it then in a

38:35

way of, like, you don't need to

38:37

ask about it. Yeah. then like, fifteen, so ages ago. I'm

38:39

at university

38:39

now. You didn't tell us with God, bro. Who cares about

38:42

that?

38:42

ages ago. Yeah. It was a long time ago.

38:44

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. He wasn't ill for very long. That Yeah. Really

38:46

good. He would have hated that. So yeah.

38:50

Yeah. So we're all over the village that it

38:52

was a

38:54

quick Yeah. Brilliant. But these the quickness that and

38:56

the tone and that most people don't

38:58

know what you're doing, but they just

39:01

pick up on the micro expression I

39:03

think, you know. So they still get, oh, right. I don't ask

39:05

about that. No idea why. So I think my

39:08

God, those sentences and

39:10

for you to have to realize that, yeah, all

39:12

my son is deserved more. I can't

39:14

get away with it. It's like, can't. And

39:16

I've had that my daughter's twelve of of like,

39:19

oh yeah, he's dead. Well, why? And

39:21

what happened? Like, Okay. I'm gonna have to think

39:23

how I tell this to someone I love.

39:25

Yeah. Or for him to say is another book

39:27

about, oh, that made me well

39:29

up. That's just And in a

39:32

funny way, I don't know.

39:34

This is obviously me. I'm speculating. I don't know you

39:36

at all, but, like, maybe that's why you did it. That

39:38

that conversation could continue. that it was, you

39:40

know, somewhere in your brain, he is

39:42

still here. Yeah. He's

39:43

still very possibly. Yeah.

39:46

Because again, the older I get, the

39:48

more I am happy

39:50

to accept that I don't really understand

39:52

anything to a certain extent. Yeah. No. No.

39:54

No. No. No. No. No. No. I didn't know why do things.

39:57

got afternoon. You know, I'm writing

39:59

a novel at the

39:59

moment, and I've written something like that. I wonder if

40:02

I'm writing this novel because of this. Sometimes I

40:04

think actually that I wrote my

40:06

first book partly

40:06

to tell the truth to my son, not that he's read

40:08

it yet, and might never

40:09

read it. But also, I think I've

40:12

maybe

40:12

read read that book. to have

40:15

an honest conversation with my parents. And maybe I did that,

40:16

and maybe I wrote it to keep myself on

40:18

Australian now in life.

40:19

because I'm a great, you know,

40:22

I am I have

40:24

I didn't used to always

40:25

be able to do this, but I've taught

40:27

myself emotional control. And

40:30

I can I've I've actor

40:31

friend of mine said, I can she said, you're very

40:33

good at performing

40:34

a sane and happy version of your

40:36

sin. And

40:38

let's get

40:38

it's entirely

40:40

true, you know,

40:40

and I've trained myself. Yeah. I can actually have

40:43

a panic

40:43

attack in public and no one would

40:45

know. And I can you know, I've

40:47

done events where I've been asked, like, horrendous

40:50

horrible questions. I mean, mainly not. Most

40:52

people are beautiful

40:54

and respectful. And, truly, it's the great privilege in my life that people tell me

40:56

stuff about themselves. But every so

40:58

often, just horrible. And

41:00

I've just trained myself to let normal

41:02

smile and get myself through But

41:04

again, it's not

41:05

it's it's obviously it's a

41:07

very useful skills field to do that,

41:09

but it's not good for

41:10

the soul in the way. So I

41:13

sometimes thing, but the reason I write things is to,

41:15

again,

41:15

keep myself on the straight narrow and make sure

41:18

I'm not

41:18

just pretending to be

41:20

all

41:21

okay, all sort of, you know, jolly hockey

41:23

sticks for whatever

41:23

for one for better work. You know, all kind

41:26

of, like, Yeah.

41:28

Happy, you

41:29

know. Oh, isn't this

41:32

nice?

41:32

Yeah. Like, I just finished

41:35

my book and it

41:37

it

41:38

became a lot more memoiry than I

41:40

expected it to. It was really I

41:41

was like, what's this? Poring up me.

41:44

That's stuff that you thought you'd dealt with, that you're

41:46

right. Oh,

41:47

And it's like it's hard

41:50

to explain. I was like, you're going to a room and

41:52

you're like, no, I'm just getting this box. You're like, oh, oh,

41:54

gosh. That's all all dear. That's all these

41:56

other boxes. But it's taken with me. Sorry. They are mine. These are all mine. I

41:58

didn't I didn't know I'd left them here.

41:59

And I feel like yeah. Like,

42:02

I

42:02

when I finished the book and I read

42:04

it, I was like, wow.

42:06

Clearly, you

42:07

you needed to

42:08

put all this debt, like, I had to sort of put

42:10

it in an order. Yeah. And that's what I felt.

42:12

It was a conversation with myself aged

42:14

fifteen to be like, that's what happened to you.

42:16

Mhmm. because I

42:17

was still even though I do the grief class

42:19

and I talk about every week, it's very controlled.

42:21

I ask the questions. I can edit. I can

42:23

take out anything about my grief. that

42:25

I want to. Like my order, I want I want to know if

42:27

that happens. Like, whoop. And with the book, I was

42:29

like, oh, fuck. It's like,

42:32

you know. can't

42:34

lie, Hanyu. It's just like it's it's

42:36

there and and but

42:37

I feel similar to you that having obviously,

42:39

it hasn't

42:40

come out, so I'm

42:41

gonna be, what? pre birth of

42:43

book situation, but it helped me

42:46

deal with so

42:46

much stuff. Like, so much stuff

42:50

just sort of being organized on a page. Mhmm. And it's

42:52

not to obviously, I'm very privileged that I get

42:54

to write someone made made me told

42:56

me to write

42:57

a book, but I wanted to

42:59

over. But

43:00

also like anybody, I think the act of

43:02

writing it down somehow gives

43:04

you a control that you don't have in

43:06

grief at all. And what you're describing about the grief, I do

43:08

that all the time. Like, the

43:11

silent panic attack is

43:13

is a real it's really

43:15

bizarre to then leave somewhere with someone and be like, oh, I

43:17

was having a panic attack. I just did it

43:20

very

43:20

quietly.

43:22

And

43:22

I wonder if that's partly a combination of of of, yeah, of

43:24

someone who's had grief in their life a long time

43:26

because you have to pretend in so many situations.

43:31

that sometimes everything's fine because if you do

43:33

have this overwhelming grief,

43:36

sometimes it's just not the place. Is it like you're just

43:38

in like you know you're at school or

43:40

you're like at a party and it's like, oh, I can't break down now

43:42

because it's so like, I used

43:44

to feel like people will call people. They're like,

43:46

she's not okay. Like, she they'll

43:49

a shit at a party. And I don't want them to call people.

43:51

So I would learn how to put on, like

43:53

you said, the same version of myself and then go

43:55

home and do it privately because it

43:58

was like, if everyone knows how bad it is. Like, they might they might

44:00

lock

44:00

me up. Like, yeah.

44:02

That's exactly it. And of course, I did

44:04

have a couple of those things

44:07

early doors. and

44:08

then thought that's I can't do that.

44:10

You know, I can't do that. So

44:12

then you learn to sort of

44:14

stick the old

44:15

mask on. Yeah.

44:18

kind of, you know, front it up

44:20

a bit.

44:20

And, yeah, such a strange

44:23

thing there, isn't it? I mean,

44:24

I don't have

44:25

something that's some other interesting thing about having children and

44:27

watching children and think that, again, quite

44:30

often what we're teaching children

44:30

to do is just lie about how

44:33

they feel Yes. Yep. Possibly.

44:36

You're fine. Don't worry. Push it off.

44:38

Dust yourself down. Be nice to

44:40

them. Yeah. I know. I try and watch that as well

44:42

because it

44:44

is you'd want to get if you do make

44:46

the choice to have children and you start seeing

44:48

how much you encourage them to lie

44:50

about things. No. Fine,

44:53

really. Yeah. you know, somebody gives them something and they say,

44:55

I don't like this. Yeah. Yeah. And then and

44:57

then you kind of like, you know, no. You've got

44:59

to you've got to you know, my son's

45:01

always been good at it again and just say, like, so I have to pretend to like it, to be

45:03

polite. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

45:08

I want to thank you. You have to at least say thank you. You don't have to like it. You don't

45:11

have to play with it, but you just say thank you because

45:13

what they did was they bought you something. Like,

45:15

that's all you're saying thank

45:18

you for. not liking it. Like, you just

45:20

say, thank you and then we put it

45:22

down because otherwise yeah. I know. It's

45:24

it's it's

45:26

it's tricky and I think with grief, it's so

45:29

especially I wonder if you've heard this because when

45:31

you're at that age, experience

45:34

something so traumatic, and everyone else is in a very different place. You know,

45:36

everyone else is like, my life, I'm going off,

45:38

what am I gonna do? Excitement and hope. And

45:40

so I sort of felt like, oh,

45:43

it's not the I can't give this to anyone. And I'll say nobody

45:45

wants it. Nobody understands it. You know, what do

45:48

I It's

45:50

it's either be my honest

45:52

self and have no friends.

45:54

Yes. Or like, I'll

45:56

come to your party and I'll be a bit quiet in the

45:58

corner, but okay, and I said

45:59

hello to people, and I maybe had to

46:01

find it. You know what I mean? because then it's in

46:03

such a different lane at that point. Did you feel

46:05

like that? Very yeah. Very much

46:07

so. And I think it's one of the things

46:09

that was

46:11

I

46:11

didn't realize at the time what a big

46:14

deed it was. I felt I'd really be

46:16

marked out from everyone else. And then, you know, all

46:18

my friends

46:20

were

46:20

you know, it's also like boyfriend's story.

46:23

isn't interrailing. Yeah.

46:24

I just didn't know

46:26

how to be with

46:29

them. I think it was really lucky actually because

46:31

we lived in

46:31

this pub.

46:32

I just spent a lot of time with

46:35

people on the pub. So

46:37

which came with its own problems

46:39

like later on because I got

46:41

this nice boyfriend and

46:42

a

46:44

succulent as the other day. I I mean, I

46:45

just didn't know how I didn't know

46:47

how to talk to his parents

46:48

or the people that

46:50

they knew because I just talked I talked to

46:52

all grown ups like there were customers in the past, which actually

46:54

lots of people didn't really like.

46:57

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

46:59

I kinda just didn't So I think

47:01

I was this I mean, I was a bit that way on anyway. I actually always liked

47:03

the company of grown ups more than

47:05

I liked the move my

47:07

own age. You know, I'm a bit better these days,

47:10

but still, like, I'm

47:12

actually really psychologically comfortable

47:14

with people who are about twenty years holding

47:16

and a lot of actually made. made lot women friends in the last

47:19

few years. I used to find again

47:21

women in groups that's

47:24

terrifying. And again

47:26

partly maybe because of having a brother, I

47:28

would gravitate to boys all the time. But

47:30

I've made a lot of women friends in the last

47:32

few years, but they are often

47:34

they're often kind of ten, twelve, fifteen years older

47:36

than me. So I I just

47:38

I don't know if there's something comforting

47:42

for me in it, I think. So

47:44

I did always,

47:44

like, grown up a conversation. And then

47:47

just so just sort of, you

47:49

know, string myself into that

47:51

really and then just felt like a I don't know,

47:53

like a

47:54

I don't know, an

47:55

outcast or an oddball or a

47:57

weird or whatever people

47:59

my own

47:59

age. Especially when you've been

48:01

through something, like, you've been like,

48:03

it's an unusual situation in

48:06

grief world anyway. And that you said it's a bit

48:08

like we were saying earlier about kids of like, how do

48:10

you explain how do you drag someone into the

48:12

club to be like, look, by the way, where I

48:14

live, it looks like this. when

48:16

they're like, oh, should I go to

48:18

Berlin? Or should we go to Budapest? You're

48:20

like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did find

48:22

that I

48:22

did find that sort of gravitated.

48:24

still do. I often find that later on again. Someone I've

48:26

made friends with or someone I've got

48:28

a connection with. Something that happened to

48:30

them when they say fifteen

48:32

to seven. be

48:34

basically. Yeah. And that's that's a really common

48:37

thread in

48:38

my friends. People

48:40

that again know how compliment.

48:43

You know,

48:44

just know the complexities.

48:46

Yeah.

48:47

Know the

48:48

complexities of life. I tend to

48:50

be draw on jobs. Then then of

48:51

course, it's not very nice for other people. One of

48:53

the things about getting older is that

48:55

just more people have suffered

48:57

in

48:57

the room. Yeah. So there's

49:00

less of a sense of

49:02

being, you know, there's less

49:03

of a sense of being the unusual

49:05

one because more people have Yeah.

49:07

More people are riding the road. Yeah.

49:09

Yeah. I definitely, as I've got older, being like, oh,

49:11

wow. I was late to us now. Like, when I got to

49:13

the first sale on the show, like, I got to

49:15

the party early. put out the twiglets. And there's no one here

49:17

of ragers. Yeah. And then they just keep spilling out. You're

49:19

like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've I've got here

49:21

a while ago. Don't worry about

49:23

it. Yeah. Yeah. That was

49:25

exactly me. I like that metaphor, actually. Yeah. So I was,

49:27

like, over in the corner with all the old

49:29

drugs. Yeah. Yeah.

49:32

We're, like, oh, okay. Yeah.

49:35

people, Tom. Yeah. But it's all quick because

49:37

you're like, oh, I've actually made really good friends with

49:39

the old junk. So Yeah. Yeah. This

49:40

is nice to you, I guess. with my

49:42

people. So you're coming up to what

49:43

did you say? Like, thirty two years? Is that I'm

49:45

I'm almost terrible with math. So Yeah. No.

49:48

It is. Yes. It's

49:50

yeah. Right? And do you

49:52

do you do anything for the anniversary

49:54

or has it changed? Like It's

49:56

changed.

49:57

Yeah. So at one point,

49:59

III mean, I

49:59

used to think it's quite good that I don't

50:02

because I'm really not very good with

50:04

numbers. I could fit Yeah. Definitely, like, I

50:06

don't know, like, diagnosably something with

50:08

numbers. So I feel really fortunate. I've never managed to

50:11

I didn't

50:12

do know the date that

50:13

Matti was knocked over, but I've managed to,

50:15

like, not know

50:18

when he died, like, it was summer. But at at the time it

50:20

happened, I was really intentionally trying not

50:22

to give myself

50:22

another date in the day. Yeah. Yeah. The

50:24

time I've always found most difficult

50:27

actually is our birthday. It's my birthday is in

50:29

January. His birthday is in February. I still

50:31

remember because he was in October, and then

50:33

my next birthday was my eighteenth, and I still

50:35

remember it. It's like a complete shit

50:38

show.

50:38

Yeah. And just like

50:40

like

50:41

I mean, just like awful.

50:43

And I

50:43

realized now that that one of the

50:46

things is that I'm seasonally,

50:48

you know, January and February

50:49

are not my happy months. Yeah.

50:51

So, again, now that I

50:53

understand myself a good therapy, basically. I don't drink

50:56

anymore. That was the other thing. I mean, I was drunk for

50:58

a couple of decades, really. So

51:00

I've never since

51:02

twenty seventeen. and therefore -- Wow.

51:04

-- once you stop, amazing. I mean, pinging. Once you

51:05

stop pouring in, like,

51:08

several

51:08

pie

51:10

a day. Yeah. Then you notice other things. I don't know. This

51:13

is ancient. Why do I suddenly

51:15

feel so miserable? Maybe it's

51:17

because it's January and maybe actually

51:20

spending

51:20

all of January all the light hours of January asleep

51:22

because I'm so hungover isn't

51:24

very good for me. So

51:27

So that's really eased. And then

51:29

I used

51:30

to think of it like nails sticking out when

51:32

you get snagged on them. Yeah. The groceries.

51:34

But these days, it's kind of

51:36

I'm still not a

51:37

great accelerator. Friend of mine was asking me the other day actually because

51:39

it's my fiftieth next. I thought you're gonna

51:41

do something. I said, well,

51:44

I've never yet enjoyed

51:46

my birthday. So is

51:47

it really gonna change because I haven't had

51:49

fifty of them? So again,

51:52

I was

51:52

not even aware of this, but I moved back

51:54

to Cornwall with my family in twenty seventeen. And

51:57

we because

51:58

for years, we hadn't picked up

51:59

my

52:00

brother's that were

52:02

at the crematorium again, which I felt really bad

52:05

about. And also, quite often, I

52:07

wasn't even sure that was

52:09

true. I wasn't sure that we might not

52:11

have done something, but that I'd been so

52:13

drunk and mad that I actually remember it. And

52:15

I didn't dare ask my parents

52:18

about it. And one of the things that happened only right in the first book was at some

52:20

point, I managed to kind of like choke out the

52:22

question. And then my mom just said,

52:24

no,

52:24

then probably still there. We just

52:26

couldn't face doing the extra thing. Then

52:28

of course, I felt really

52:29

bad about it that we haven't done it, but I found

52:31

out that loads of people don't do it.

52:33

And it just again, it's just that thing, isn't it?

52:36

Sometimes, it's just the feeling not the feeling

52:38

of not being alone. But we

52:39

scattered them

52:40

in the sea down here. And, again, I didn't

52:42

feel he wanted

52:43

be confined somewhere else. We scattered

52:45

them in the sea and we just put a

52:47

plaque on

52:47

my granny's grave, which is in

52:50

the cemetery. just

52:51

down the road from my house.

52:53

So, yes, I managed to move

52:55

next

52:55

door to my brother's.

52:57

So we did that. then I moved

53:00

from London. You know, what

53:02

surprise? I didn't

53:03

I organized that plant and then moved so

53:04

that I could live next door to it, so I

53:07

could go walking there all the time. and kind

53:09

of and sometimes I have a sit and sometimes I kind of just

53:11

wade and walk by and what have you,

53:13

but that feels like a really

53:15

nice thing to

53:18

do. And

53:18

I wouldn't know.

53:19

I wouldn't typically do that, like, on

53:21

his birthday. I'd just do it, like

53:23

When I when

53:25

you feel like it. And definitely

53:27

now to him more than that with it.

53:29

Like, he's not. I

53:31

remember actually

53:33

because I the only reason I know this is because

53:35

the therapist asked me, like, how often

53:37

do you think about it? And I

53:38

I mean, it was still all

53:39

the time.

53:40

that was I mean, that was just a hack from the years

53:43

ago. It was just all the time. I said, it

53:45

wasn't like

53:45

it was all I thought about, but it was

53:47

like a constant thrum. Yeah.

53:49

So it was like, you know, like, if

53:52

you imagine a a sort

53:54

of

53:54

a graph, it's it's that the line

53:57

was ever Yeah. Other things. I've got I could

53:59

do

53:59

other things, but but that was

54:02

just a a

54:03

low level, like white

54:04

noise, tinnitus, that kind of

54:06

thing. and that's not the case anymore.

54:08

I do actually have whole,

54:11

you know,

54:12

hours. I mean days

54:14

maybe, where I actually don't really

54:17

think about it. I don't feel

54:19

I don't feel

54:21

quite so defined

54:24

buy it -- Mhmm. -- as I

54:26

used to. But again, also, I've just

54:28

given up worrying about it

54:29

because I think there are things that

54:31

happened to you and Kindly,

54:35

like, say, what if

54:35

they're gonna define me. It would almost

54:37

be more

54:38

weird if I'd

54:38

lived through that experience and not

54:42

being screwed up

54:43

by it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Luckily,

54:45

because of having great parents and

54:47

resources and good

54:50

friends, and I still I mean, again, I look back. I still find

54:52

it in miracles that nothing bad didn't happen

54:54

to me. Yeah. Like, one of the stuff off

54:56

of my head and stuff. But anyway,

55:00

didn't. I was fortunate

55:02

in the kindness of strangers and the love

55:04

of friends and then

55:05

later on, some really

55:08

amazing therapy. I'm here and

55:10

I, you know, do my work and make my

55:12

contribution

55:12

and

55:14

I really like now. My latest book

55:17

is about writing and about writing

55:19

it all down

55:19

and helping people to write about things. Again,

55:22

for whatever however,

55:24

they won't

55:25

to, not necessarily to be a book, but it might be a book

55:28

or just to use writing to do

55:30

that thing you were talking about that wrestling

55:32

for sale. and to have a

55:34

private space where you can really

55:36

be yourself. And,

55:38

you know, those are

55:38

all the things I think about at

55:41

the moment and It doesn't feel

55:42

like a bad place to be. Kathy, thank

55:45

you so

55:45

much. It was so interesting to talk

55:48

to you

55:50

and Remember, Matti, I can't recommend

55:52

the books enough, especially in the club. I think

55:54

they will speak to you wholeheartedly.

55:57

So, yeah, thank Thank you

55:59

so

55:59

much for speaking to me. It's

56:01

been such a beautiful and joyous pleasure.

56:02

julius closet

56:07

You

56:07

can find more about Kathy and all the books she's written

56:09

on her website, kathyreads books

56:12

dot com. You can follow her on

56:14

Twitter at catrentson brink.

56:16

So it's cat cat. Rent. Zenbrink is

56:18

RENTZENBRINK

56:24

Brink. She's on Instagram as

56:26

well. Her book is incredible. If you haven't

56:28

read if you haven't read the last set of love,

56:30

I thoroughly

56:32

recommend it or even a manager for heartache, and her novel, everyone is the life. She's

56:34

an incredible writer. You can follow us

56:36

on Twitter and Instagram. At the

56:38

griefcast, the show was edited by

56:40

Kate Holland.

56:42

It was corded remotely in my living room and Kathy's living

56:44

room. And the music was provided by the

56:46

glue ensemble, artwork by Jade

56:48

Perkins, stop motion animation by Alice

56:50

Love Day. And

56:52

remember, you're

56:56

not alone.

57:11

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57:17

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57:19

hearty organic soups that taste terrifically. Deliciousistically chicken

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