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You're listening to with me,

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Cariad Adloyd. Grievecast

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1:38

Hey, Griefcast. I hope you're having an okay

1:41

week. A little bit

1:43

of news. This is the last episode

1:45

of this series. I'm gonna have a break.

1:49

I don't know when I'm coming back. So

1:52

normally, I think I don't know if

1:54

I do shows in January and I

1:57

normally January off. Let me start up with this sort of spring

1:59

season and we have break and some when we come back

2:02

and the book obviously

2:04

is now out and that was

2:07

quite a huge thing.

2:10

It's quite a huge part of me, that

2:12

book. And I really

2:14

wanted to do some episodes in

2:16

January to make it, we don't normally do that.

2:18

I say we, I don't normally do that. But

2:21

I knew that I probably couldn't go once the book

2:24

came out with recording episodes as well.

2:26

So I'm gonna have a little break because

2:29

I know we're all griefsters. I'm not gonna say,

2:31

this is the end. But I

2:33

am just gonna say, you know, I'll wrap

2:35

for a bit. I

2:38

love doing the show so much

2:40

and I love this community so

2:43

so much, but I definitely with

2:46

the book now being out Yeah.

2:49

I just it's hard to record them

2:51

as well as talking about my dad all the

2:53

time. So I hope

2:56

that's okay. I hope

2:58

you know how much I appreciate everybody

3:00

who listens and has made this show what it

3:02

is and provided the community of people that

3:04

it is. I really am so so

3:06

grateful. So for everyone

3:08

who's listened this entire time since

3:10

twenty sixteen, all the way back with our first

3:13

episode talking to, Adam

3:15

Buxton about his dad. Thank

3:18

you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

3:20

for making this what I do

3:22

and I

3:24

hope you're okay. I hope today is an okay

3:26

one. Before we go,

3:28

we have one last guest. And I'm

3:30

so so tough that she is the last guest

3:32

of the season because she's amazing. It's

3:35

the fantastic writer, a

3:37

poet, Hollie whittish. Holly

3:40

is on Sunday Times best thing

3:42

author of slug and other

3:44

things I've been told to hate. As well

3:46

as her brilliant parenting memoir, nobody

3:49

told me. She also won the Ted Hughes award

3:51

for new work in poetry. She's

3:54

just one of those people that if,

3:57

you know, you follow her on social media. It's just

3:59

she's good. You're just glad she exists.

4:02

She's a brilliant poet. What she talks about has

4:04

not been talked about before. The way she talks

4:06

about it is like really honest and refreshing

4:08

and just clear sighted and

4:12

I'm so glad that I finally got to talk to him. We've been

4:14

trying arrange this chat for a while and it

4:16

was just a joy, a

4:18

real joy. So here

4:21

is Hollie.

4:25

So, Hollie, who are we remembering

4:28

today? Today, I'm

4:30

remembering my grand. So

4:33

specifically my mom's

4:35

mom who died

4:38

in the first lockdown period.

4:40

So it was like a weird that kind of

4:43

online funeral death, and she was she

4:45

was ninety six. So yeah.

4:48

I did yeah. We're remembering her. My

4:50

grandma, I was very close to her. Love to her. Like a lot

4:53

of people love a lot of people they lose.

4:55

What was her name? Where was it to say the name?

4:58

Oh, her name was Isabelle. Isabelle? That's funny,

5:00

isn't it? Because she's she's like her name

5:02

was grandma. But

5:04

Unless she's grandma or grandma, is

5:06

she's grandma? At she was

5:09

she was a gaga. Gaga. Oh.

5:12

So I don't know if that's like common

5:14

in other families. Apparently not.

5:16

I was I was told it was a Scottish

5:18

name, but my my mom had to vote Scottish and

5:20

everything that I questioned, they were like, oh, it's a

5:22

Scottish thing. So lots

5:25

of things like my dad's omelette that had,

5:27

like, burgers and chips in the omelette was a Scottish

5:30

a later discovered, like, that's not

5:32

a Scottish that's just our

5:33

family. You just you bought a burger and chips

5:35

in your omelette, which is totally fine. Yeah.

5:37

They don't blame the entire nation for this,

5:40

what's happening on your plate. Yeah. Now

5:42

I first Gaga before. Gaga normally

5:44

is when a child can't say grandma and

5:47

then it becomes Gaga and

5:49

then it sticks what I've always

5:50

heard. If it sort of becomes like,

5:52

that's what we call that person. But actually, it

5:54

was a child, couldn't say grandma or

5:56

grandma. Yeah. That makes sense. My

5:58

my dad said it was once that

6:01

it was one of our first words. And

6:03

so my grandma wanted to take,

6:06

like, act like her name was

6:08

our first word, but actually it was that our

6:10

first word was her name. I think he

6:12

I think he was having a bit of a dick.

6:15

Gaga, Isabelle's a very beautiful name.

6:17

Very beautiful. And she was -- Definitely. -- she

6:19

was ninety six. So, wow.

6:21

That is a right age,

6:23

not that that makes, you know, you can still grieve for

6:26

people who are old, that's very common. But,

6:28

you know, good for her that she had a nice

6:30

long life in that way. Yeah.

6:33

Was great. Was she in

6:35

a home by the end or where was she?

6:37

No. So I guess that's sort of why I wanted

6:40

to talk to

6:40

her. No. She was she's also the the closest

6:42

person percent that I've I've been to

6:45

that that that has died, which

6:47

is very lucky in my life.

6:49

But I found it quite

6:51

weird because it was as my mom

6:53

always says it was like a very good death and

6:56

my mom's a nurse and she's seen a lot

6:58

of death and she was just She kept

7:00

sort of saying to me, you know, it was amazing. It was such

7:02

a good death, and I was like, bluffing, you know,

7:04

not really used to it. That's my mom

7:06

is that she was at home

7:09

-- Mhmm. -- and she was she

7:11

wasn't fine, obviously. Mhmm.

7:15

She was sort of in in the hospital a bit

7:17

and out. She

7:19

was, you know, she was chatting

7:21

even on the day that she died and and

7:24

just went to the

7:26

room and then sort of sat up in bed and

7:28

and died. Wow. It's

7:31

got yeah. It was quite,

7:33

like, my mom, and it was obviously

7:35

in a come thing way. Mhmm. But

7:37

we're saying it, but I've so I find it

7:40

it is quite odd when you're, like,

7:43

heavily grieving someone, but you know,

7:45

like, it was a good death. Mhmm. They've had a long

7:47

life. So there's not it's

7:49

not that there's so much sympathy and maybe there

7:51

shouldn't be as much. Obviously, there's horrendous,

7:54

that's up in grief that people go through.

7:56

But it was just quite funny and

7:58

it's funny that you said that because as soon as sort of

8:00

say the age is like, a lot of people

8:02

are like, oh, yeah. Fair enough. I think

8:05

it's nothing. But

8:07

I guess my so I those

8:09

might grandfather was really close to, and

8:11

one of them died at ninety four. Wow. Years

8:13

ago, and the other one at ninety six. But

8:16

my grandma died at ninety four. She was, like,

8:18

so ready to die and used to talk to me

8:20

about how sort of boring old age was and

8:22

how she was ready to study in cheese because,

8:25

like, she was so healthy. She just ate, you

8:27

know, she like made soup every day for

8:29

for food, basically. And

8:32

I the doctor told her cheese is bad for her, so

8:34

she immediately, like, cut out cheese. But then when

8:36

she started to think she was already she started

8:38

eating cheese as if that was, like, really bad.

8:42

My afraid to tell you there are few things

8:44

above cheese.

8:46

Yep. I know about smoking, drinking.

8:48

No. Let's start with

8:49

cheese. Go easy. Build a customer

8:51

some -- Yeah. -- more fun stuff, I guess.

8:55

But yeah. My my gagger was, like, not

8:57

ready. I think that's why I found it so said

8:59

because she had like a very long life,

9:02

but a lot of it was during

9:05

times where like women

9:07

couldn't do quite as much she would have

9:09

wanted. Yeah. And she to be honest, like,

9:11

she was amazing. She was the first person in my family

9:13

to go to uni. She came from Cariad Hollie background

9:16

and loads of stuff and then got pregnant

9:18

just she left, so didn't really go into

9:20

the the life, I guess, that she was

9:22

she was definitely thinking. Have

9:25

three kids went into teaching. And then,

9:27

she only ever went abroad when she was,

9:29

like, seventy five after my granddad died

9:31

because he was Yeah. So

9:34

so she sort of she had this long, long

9:36

life but as a lot of women in particular,

9:38

a lot of caring in it. Yeah. And

9:40

then was kinda independent, I

9:42

guess, in her seventies and had loads of

9:44

other places she wanted to go. But by the

9:46

time she wanted to do it, she was she

9:48

was mobile but not mobile enough to -- Yeah.

9:51

-- go on like a world tour world tour

9:53

or

9:53

whatever. So, yeah, it's

9:56

it's interesting and it's sort of sad, but

9:58

I know that she had a longer life than most

10:00

people on the planet. Yeah. I think it's really

10:02

interesting because what you're talking about. We say on

10:05

the show there's no hierarchy of Griefcast

10:08

And I do believe that, like, grief is grief.

10:10

Obviously, there's situations where

10:12

you're like, well, yep, that compared to

10:14

that. Is is -- Yeah. -- easier. Absolutely.

10:17

But but say even saying that, I think

10:19

it can what's

10:22

important, I suppose, is and I say this

10:24

a not your Griefcast your grief.

10:26

Like, if you feel it, you feel it, and

10:28

and it doesn't it's like sadness, isn't it

10:30

or depression, or anxiety that it's no good someone

10:32

saying, oh, but look what you've got. Doesn't

10:35

make that feeling go away, and it just makes you

10:37

feel worse. She's like, I shouldn't feel this because

10:39

they were had a good death. It's just

10:41

like, I think the things around their age

10:43

and their death, like, the the

10:46

context of someone's death can

10:48

be helpful sometimes in

10:50

grief to give you a moment of, like, okay,

10:54

you know, they were twenty one when

10:56

they died. Gosh, that's that's making me feel even

10:58

more worse or they were ninety when they die okay,

11:01

I have that to hold on to like they were

11:03

old and that's something that's good. But

11:05

the grief is still there. Like, did

11:07

it make sense? Like, the context of it. You can

11:09

always look at it. You can visit it and be like, oh, the

11:11

context is interesting. Here's the context. But

11:14

it doesn't stop how you feel. And

11:16

then she said if she were very close to her and

11:18

she's the first person you've really, you know

11:21

you know experience that grief and that death

11:23

then, Of course, you're weaving. I think that's that's

11:25

like normal, but think people really love to

11:28

minimize other people's grief. They really love

11:30

it. This makes them feel

11:31

better, you know. So if they can say to you,

11:34

sit. If they say to you, oh, god. Oh, no. You're

11:36

so

11:36

sad. Oh, how old is she? Ninety six. Dang?

11:38

Okay. Don't be so that bad. Oh, she had a good day.

11:40

Yeah. Dang. I'm really don't feel that well. And you're

11:42

close to it and you got on and she knew that you loved you. Dink

11:45

dink dink. Oh, great. Alright. And

11:47

it's like we're we're looking in our internal sympathy

11:49

box and we're like, Okay. How much does

11:51

Hollie need? Not that much. But that's bullshit.

11:54

Like, if you feel sad, you feel sad.

11:56

Like, you do. But also, in

11:58

a way, don't need that. Like, I don't need that

12:00

much. In that in that way, it is,

12:03

you know, if I if there are other people I lost, I

12:05

would need more help. Like, I didn't feel like needed.

12:07

Yeah. Yeah.

12:08

Needed people around me is so

12:10

much, but it's it doesn't make it

12:12

less, you know, less sad that you

12:14

I'm missing this person. Yeah. But

12:17

yeah. I definitely I guess

12:19

it had my own box in that way that

12:21

was like, no. It's okay. Like, it's that's

12:24

a nice third one as well because I think that was

12:26

the one that selfishly

12:28

was the thing that I spoke about.

12:31

spoke about money when I was sort of talking

12:33

about in in night poems and and write because

12:35

I've wrote quite a lot about my grandparents

12:38

and just the fact that if you know that It's

12:41

like this this surety that you've told someone

12:43

that you love them. Yeah. And then, I

12:45

guess, a lot of people in Griefcast

12:49

close friends and my partner was saying,

12:51

right, that's it. There's no chance I'm not telling

12:53

any of my, like, male friends that I loved them. Because

12:56

it's not like a guy thing to do. Yeah.

12:58

But I thought this basically, like

13:00

no longer will I hold feelings back

13:02

because this is just this is too much.

13:05

So I guess it's still still sparked out.

13:07

But from a positive point of view I

13:09

was

13:09

alright. I I told my when

13:11

I loved her so much and and you

13:14

think, right. Let me just do that to everyone else

13:17

that I know on this planet now.

13:19

Yeah. Definitely. And that's the thing about Griefcast

13:21

it it you know, whether someone ninety

13:24

six and has a good you still makes you feel all those

13:26

feelings that we all feel when like, oh,

13:28

fuck. People can die. They can die. I need to

13:30

say these things and and, you

13:32

know, obviously, having done lots of conversations about

13:34

grief, it doesn't make it you

13:37

know, it does make it easier. It makes it

13:39

easier to face your brief. If

13:41

you knew that they loved you

13:43

and you said you loved them, like, they definitely add

13:46

an ease to it. It doesn't mean you're you're walk

13:48

your now and you're like, oh, I'm fine. They knew I loved

13:50

them. But it definitely helps. It definitely

13:52

helps. Yeah. think so. think the worst

13:54

thing about it was being a mom

13:57

and telling my kid -- Oh, yeah. -- like

13:59

that that was

14:01

really odd because all the all the other people that

14:03

died have just gone gone through it by myself

14:05

really, which is fine. I'm not such

14:07

a well, like a lot of people.

14:10

Not in a way that I don't like, I'm I'm very

14:12

open to, like, crying in front of people and I'm talking

14:14

about just it's not really something that I feel

14:17

that I do community that well.

14:20

Not well that I that I really want to. I

14:22

like doing my own little rituals

14:24

that I just make up and act like the spiritual.

14:28

But tell I think, yeah, telling

14:30

my daughter is

14:32

is being the worst. I've had to

14:34

tell her two people in in our family of times

14:36

since she's been alive in she was really, like,

14:39

really close. And it was her great grandma.

14:41

Mhmm. So that's even even weirder

14:43

because when she said that to

14:45

people, great grandma died. It's like, oh,

14:47

you know, when you expect that to be somebody that

14:49

you maybe haven't even been able to talk to or has

14:51

been in a in a, I don't know,

14:53

not a state of the of knowing them.

14:56

And the fact that they were they

14:58

were so close, that

15:00

that was awful because I thought, oh, I didn't

15:02

have to go through this at your age. Yeah. But I didn't

15:04

grandparents, but you've got four great grandmars

15:06

because basically everyone in our family had

15:08

kids had kids before we're

15:11

apparently meant to. Yeah. So she's got some

15:13

very young grandmas as well.

15:15

So I think that, like, just sitting in

15:17

the morning and thinking, got

15:20

to go in and I grew in my kids'

15:22

day and I have no idea how

15:25

actually, it was like nine. Wow.

15:27

So really, really aware of it is not

15:29

some that, you know, it's not like she'll forget

15:31

it. Yeah. Yeah. That was

15:33

that was the worst. That that was, yeah,

15:35

much worse than my own grief,

15:38

I think, just having to break news to kid.

15:40

And I imagine that it was a bloody

15:43

awful, like, that just can't imagine if

15:45

it's someone even to

15:46

them. How like, how was it? What did you say

15:48

to her? Did you just go for the straight

15:51

up? She's died, like

15:54

Yeah. I was trying to like,

15:56

I I'm not really one for older, passed

15:59

away. Yeah. Gone to the stars

16:01

or whatever. I just I don't mind the

16:03

word. Well, I do mind the word

16:05

that I like absolutely Hollie

16:08

not come to terms the fact that I'm gonna die

16:10

despite having, like, sat with people who

16:12

are dying quite often, not

16:14

quite often, like, a few times with

16:17

grandparents mainly, but Yeah.

16:20

Just went in and and sat down. It was

16:22

it was in

16:24

lockdown, but we had

16:27

gone and seen her. Like, when there was,

16:29

like, a little break in the lockdown and

16:32

a few people. I haven't worked with my grandma as well, like, a

16:34

few people said, oh, do you really think you should drive up?

16:36

But what if all the, you know, motorways

16:38

are closed or whatever. So we'd

16:41

driven up not fairly

16:43

recently, but a couple of months before

16:46

to quite a lot of criticism in

16:48

the family. And now I'm just very pleased that we

16:50

did that. But I went in and she we

16:52

made that Denzel during lockdown. Share, like,

16:54

a different dinner bedroom every month. Yeah.

16:57

Or every week maybe. So it was, like, this bright,

17:00

some shiny day where this

17:02

massive like, I just remember all these, like,

17:04

flowers up and, like, fake flowers

17:06

and big sheets up, and she was, like,

17:09

waking up in the surf. God. But

17:12

just said I think I just sat

17:14

down and said, not

17:16

because I mean, bad tell you and when you

17:18

tell me you're bad, maybe didn't say bad to sad.

17:21

And I just told her, and then III

17:23

don't know. told her embarrassed into tears,

17:26

which is very helpful, but I'm a really, really

17:28

crying person. Like, I've read a poem yesterday

17:30

sitting in a cafe. I was I was trying

17:32

to write, like, edit a book and I was

17:35

redother people's points before I try and edit

17:37

my own. And it was about this

17:40

woman just sat in a not

17:42

someone had died, but when a kid

17:45

had left home to go sit, like, college

17:47

or wherever. And she was, like, sat in the empty

17:49

room and his personal Klein

17:51

in the cafe. So this is so

17:54

I'm not I'm not very good at breaking

17:56

news like that. I just cry. I'd be a

17:58

terror terrible, terrible medical.

18:02

I just want I'm just so sad for you.

18:04

Yeah. Thanks. Of the treatment. We doing? I

18:06

don't know. I know. I know. I

18:09

think that's really good though. I think it's

18:11

quite healthy to tell a child and cry because

18:13

what you're saying immediately is I'm

18:15

sad. And the way to express sadness is

18:17

tears. And that's like I think it's great

18:20

because for the child, for you to express,

18:22

like, deeply sad and keep all your emotion in,

18:24

the child goes Oh, okay. This is saying

18:26

we do not cry. We keep it in.

18:28

It's dangerous. Don't let those tears. But as when

18:30

you just pour your eyes out, I mean,

18:32

obviously, you don't wanna bore you as at the point where the kid

18:34

is like, okay, mommy. I'll

18:37

get dressed herself. Like, I'll

18:39

make do that. You don't want that. But to

18:41

show you like, we can be sad and it's okay and

18:43

we can hug each other. Like, you're just showing emotion.

18:46

think that's because that's the thing with kids,

18:48

people get so afraid of

18:50

yet using the word dead and deaf

18:52

and dying and and they just

18:54

wanna protect them, like, course, I understand

18:57

you know, I understand as a person and

18:59

also as someone a person who has two children.

19:01

I totally understand that need to protect them, but

19:04

what are you protecting them from? You know, that's

19:06

the thing you like. You're protecting them from emotion,

19:08

from sadness. Like, they will experience sadness.

19:11

Like, that is something that's gonna happen to

19:12

them. And so you're showing them, we can't do it with

19:14

me. I can't see your sadness. We can't

19:17

be sad together. Like, you're gonna

19:18

have to do this

19:18

by self somewhere else,

19:20

which and if you can't be sad

19:22

with, you know, the person that you're

19:24

meant to be one of the closest to in the world.

19:26

Gonna be pretty hard. Yeah. To be honest,

19:28

it's my friend friend, LJ, who

19:30

is a doctor, and

19:33

I remember her saying she's such does a

19:35

lot of work with deaf matters and grief

19:37

cafes and stuff. And then

19:39

she asked me where my kid was, like, five if

19:41

I wanted to come to this deaf deaf friend.

19:43

She's really enthusiastic about it. And I was like,

19:47

I don't know. That's like a day

19:49

out for me with my girlfriend. No. It's like, no. It's

19:51

great. We're doing making, like, day of dead cookies

19:53

and then we there's loads of books about

19:55

death and I was like, so

19:58

that I went. And it was very nice.

20:00

It was like a it was like a cough

20:02

in the middle that you could put like thoughts about

20:04

people that are died in. But just

20:06

just seeing everyone like strangers

20:08

that talk about death was

20:10

amazing. And my my kid still remembers

20:13

it, but remembers like just like the the

20:15

cakes basically. And and probably

20:17

remembers because I've got a photo of us standing

20:19

with these, like, days of the cookies

20:21

that we we made that the memory is often

20:23

and that they've seen a photograph like years later.

20:26

So what they actually remember, but so

20:28

she was like, no. I think it's healthy to

20:31

talk about that. So then I did, but

20:33

after that, my daughter like,

20:35

every time I tried to sing her

20:37

a song, that songs that

20:39

I used to sing her when she was going to sleep, she

20:41

was like, I don't

20:44

sing that because it's too sad and

20:46

I was like, it isn't. But it's

20:48

meant to be a happy song. She was but one day you're gonna

20:50

die and then you won't be able to see me that song.

20:52

So then she was obsessed for ages. was

20:55

like, oh, no. What if I done? And then,

20:57

like, everything nice, I would be like, oh,

20:59

I did. But once I'm like, oh,

21:02

I can't remember what it was. But, yeah, every time

21:04

I say, she was like, I know, like, everything I did, don't

21:06

do that because one day you will be dead, then you won't

21:08

be able do it. And I was like, well, maybe if

21:10

one day I'll be dead, which is

21:13

which I, you know, told her

21:15

that I don't really know what happens after and then

21:18

maybe we should do it more because

21:21

Yeah. Yeah. I'll be there.

21:22

Yeah. So just enjoy it. Again, mate. I have

21:24

as many adventures as possible,

21:26

but I was just like, oh, I don't know. I tell

21:28

her how to do this. It's really

21:30

hard. It's really hard. And I think all kids go

21:32

through that phase of, like, talking about death and, like,

21:34

obviously, my child

21:36

hears me talking about it a lot. The

21:39

older one has our stuff. And she'll

21:41

be like, when are you gonna die? And

21:43

what are we all are we all doing it? We're all

21:45

dying because I was like yeah.

21:47

We're all we're all gonna do it just like

21:49

don't know when. But we're obviously

21:51

like try not to, but

21:54

it will happen. And I just think I think

21:56

it's good because think actually

21:58

what most of us do is you almost of

22:00

us go out with is not talking about it. And then when

22:02

it does

22:03

happen just being like, what the fuck is this?

22:05

Like, Well, if you've had that moment as

22:07

a child of being curious, oh, what

22:09

happens? What is it? What is this dead thing that, you

22:11

know, happens to people? And again,

22:13

apparently, you express it and talk about it. Then you're

22:16

you're somewhere in your bones

22:18

and deep in your psyche. He's like, oh, okay. This is

22:20

something that's not terrifying.

22:22

Like, it's a part of what this existence

22:25

is. I just think it's so important because

22:27

--

22:27

Yeah. -- you're not met

22:28

here. You're not it's not like it's not true.

22:30

It's not like Santa Claus. You know what mean? Like, it's like,

22:32

oh, well,

22:33

they they could believe it for a bit. It's not in the world.

22:35

It's like, no. No. This is like, it is gonna

22:37

happen. So why My job won't even

22:39

break it with sad because I'm

22:40

like, look, some people think this old guy comes

22:42

around, but I don't know.

22:44

I'm obsessed I'm obsessed with Santa Claus. I'm

22:46

like the opposite. Oh, really? The car was

22:49

I'm really obsessed with, like, the history of the actual

22:51

person. That's the that's the actual story. So

22:53

then I I so I thought it was

22:55

sort of past the age of waking

22:58

up for Santa and stuff. But I was like, but

23:00

look at this Saint Nicholas, like, it's amazing.

23:02

He was a natural person and he was so

23:04

cool and, like, started putting things

23:06

like randomly in people's houses because he

23:08

did want poor people to feel bad for getting charity

23:10

and

23:11

stuff. So I like the actual

23:13

story of, like

23:14

That's better. That sounds like you're handling it

23:16

more than I am. Which is

23:17

it's only because I'm obsessed with it, and I love

23:19

all that stuff. No. I think that's good. Because

23:21

I worry that I've, like, destroyed Christmas because

23:23

she's so amazed by it. She's just like,

23:25

alright. It's not a big deal. And then she was like,

23:27

she was like, my friend told me that, like,

23:29

finally Christmas comes around. I was like, yeah.

23:32

Yeah. Look, he'll knock knock knock knock knock

23:35

knock on the door, and he'll give us a

23:37

present. Okay? He gives us one thing. Because I just can't

23:39

deal with all this like If you

23:41

are good, you'll get

23:42

it. If you're bad. I'll just find that

23:44

really stressful because it's like it's kind of creepy

23:46

as. Yeah. Watch it. Watch it. Watch it. A

23:48

good Yeah. And it's similar to

23:50

death. They're watching over you. They're still with you.

23:52

It's this idea that to give children this

23:54

stuff that actually is more computer seen the reality.

23:57

Like, we are It feels quite simple. Stops.

23:59

Stops some teenagers starting

24:02

to masturbate. Yeah. Sorry that they're like dead family

24:04

we'll be watching them. I've heard that quite a lot

24:06

by people that have lost people and then as their

24:08

teenagers, which is obviously her

24:11

render but just thinking that your

24:13

grandma's gonna be sitting

24:14

there, like watching you practice

24:16

in trying to masturbate. That is not I mean,

24:18

it's someone that's not what they're gonna be doing.

24:21

It's somebody loves the data. Fifteen.

24:23

Yes. Anything you do as a teenager. Because

24:25

someone's told you they're watching, so you're like, is he

24:27

watching me drink this bottle of watches. If

24:30

he wants to, we snog this person. Like,

24:33

what the fuck? Because I'm doing some stuff that's

24:35

not gray. It's fine. I

24:37

don't want him to see that. Yeah. It's awful when

24:39

people say it's really awful. She really do like,

24:43

it really lands because you think what?

24:45

Because, obviously, like -- Yeah. -- especially any child

24:47

doesn't wanna you don't wanna see your parents see what you're up

24:50

to, like any butcher. What? Is that what she's gonna

24:52

do? Now who's not here? Oh, god.

24:54

That is that's all I

24:57

Yeah. We are so such a the other

24:59

side is such a strange thing about death as well, isn't

25:01

it? It's like, right? So if I if

25:03

I die, And I don't know what

25:05

happens. Alright? You know, my body explodes and

25:07

becomes a tree or whatever. Don't know.

25:09

But as if if you can,

25:12

if you do become like some sort of spirit,

25:14

that that's what you'll do. Go and watch the child,

25:17

masturbate. Like, that's such a weird idea

25:19

of like like that all the possibilities

25:22

of the

25:22

afterlife. And that is what you all day.

25:26

You could be at peace with nature. You could fly

25:28

in the air and just feel that one with the

25:30

entire you can watch your child masturbate.

25:32

Or at least watch someone else masturbate? Yes.

25:34

He's like, no. It's not

25:36

creepy. It's not okay. It's

25:38

not weird because think I think another thing

25:40

that you think as a child because you don't think about the

25:42

parents' point of view, but also the parents don't wanna

25:44

see that. Like, we are from the parent one of you're

25:46

like you're like no thanks. I keep that

25:48

Awesome. It's all Cariad interesting to watch. Yeah.

25:50

It's like we make such a big thing about it.

25:53

Like, I mean, just really

25:55

depend on how you do it, because of me, it would

25:58

not be. It's

26:02

gonna say it's moving on from

26:04

there from there. It must

26:06

have been, but my one of

26:08

the nice things about talking

26:11

to my my kids was that it was like she was

26:13

part of it all. Yeah. Yeah. kept thinking

26:15

that after you said that that was is is

26:17

quite good and that they know this

26:19

stuff, but she was like part

26:21

of that, like, family event --

26:23

Yeah. -- way. I went to feet like, came to the

26:26

funeral, and I remember from my from my

26:28

other grandma to my daughter did know, but she was

26:30

younger. She was like four and

26:32

knew her but not wasn't the same. Like,

26:34

she spent a lot of time on her own while,

26:37

to be honest, I was sleeping and watching you know,

26:39

spent a lot of time with my other grandma, and

26:41

we spent every new year with her, had parties

26:43

with her, what, like, you know, loads of traditions

26:46

around birthdays and Christmas and

26:48

New Year and stuff. But with the other

26:50

girl, I remember her, but

26:52

she like, we saw my grandma about a week

26:54

before she died, and my daughter was asking her

26:56

loads of questions -- Mhmm. -- which adults

26:59

obviously wouldn't ask, and

27:01

we were sad at the camp. And

27:03

she was just So how did you get so old?

27:06

Like, how can I, like, not die?

27:09

You know, earlier. And how can just and

27:11

everyone was like, oh, is oh, thinking, oh,

27:13

god. It's is this appropriate? My

27:15

grandma was seemed to

27:17

be loving it. Yeah. Somebody was

27:19

not tiptoeing around

27:22

everything. Yeah. But after she

27:24

really wanted to come to the funeral and

27:26

no one really wanted her to and none

27:28

of the other great grandkids would

27:31

go in. So it was a

27:33

bit of a thing that I was

27:35

like, I think it's okay.

27:37

Yeah. She goes, like, other ones would go into

27:40

the to the stuff afterwards, like

27:42

the cake and

27:42

-- Yeah. -- I can't

27:43

remember what it's called. But so

27:45

I was so nervous. It was like this you know

27:47

when you do stuff with a kid and you're

27:49

like, you have to be well behaved.

27:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I

27:53

like, I am

27:54

wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're wrong in front of the

27:56

whole family that's like, not my mom

27:58

my mom was always, like,

28:00

always talked about death actually in our household

28:02

because she had a lot of patients she was close to

28:05

who died and she'd she'd come I'm

28:07

like, sada on those days from work.

28:09

And as I got older, we'd talk

28:11

more. I'd be like, oh, mom, I can't find

28:14

a dress to wear, and she was like, oh, my

28:16

patient and died. I was like, okay.

28:19

Never mind. You know what? This one's fine.

28:21

I'll just wear the pink dress. I'll just wear the pink dress. I'll just

28:23

wear whatever one. Yeah. But so

28:25

she cares, she came to the funeral, and I was

28:28

like, I remember being really

28:30

sad because it was my grand's funeral, but

28:32

really nervous as this, like, testing mother.

28:34

And actually, she was silent for the

28:36

whole thing, so well behaved. I said, yes.

28:39

So he was so quick. And

28:41

and even told me to should when I asked

28:43

her if she was like, okay. She was like, she's a funeral.

28:46

Okay. Fine. That's

28:48

amazing. That's

28:49

amazing. think it. That's really I

28:52

mean, that it depends on the child. It depends on your

28:54

relationship with child. And if you know that child can

28:56

coke with it and sit there.

28:57

Yeah.

28:58

My niece when

29:01

my mother-in-law died came to the funeral. I think

29:03

she was, like, maybe

29:06

five or six and similarly,

29:09

like, the the general family were, like, of course, she's

29:11

coming. Like, she was very, very close to her

29:13

and, you know, didn't think about it. It was only when the

29:15

phenols happening. I suddenly I sat next to I was

29:17

like, oh my god. Like, this is quite massive for

29:19

you actually. Like, have

29:21

we thought about this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

29:24

And and she was fine. Like,

29:26

she definitely there was definitely moments

29:28

that she was confused or sad,

29:30

but again, I feel like

29:33

there's aren't terrible feelings for child to have,

29:35

I almost have managed. Obviously, you're not like, yeah. Good.

29:37

Be sad. Like, stay there. But to

29:39

be like, to see her mom get up and

29:41

speak and then her, you know, my husband and her

29:43

uncle speak and people were

29:45

crying and she was sad and But

29:48

just you gotta go, I don't know, like,

29:50

I've spoken to so many Irish

29:53

people and Irish comedians who I like, that's,

29:55

like, the biggest nationality has been on the

29:58

show because -- Oh, yeah. -- they have, like, no

30:00

problem talking about it. And they'll they'll say, like,

30:02

oh, yeah, I went to few when I was two years old or one was,

30:04

like, my earliest memory is being, like, held over a

30:06

coffin to look up. Yeah. It's

30:08

just, like, not a big deal there. And I

30:11

think there is something I

30:14

don't know, just something about that being in your vocabulary

30:16

quite early, not being so

30:18

terrifying

30:19

when there's a few know that, like, all the Irish people

30:22

I know are like, of course, you go to a funeral. Of course, don't matter how well

30:24

you know

30:24

you go to support the person, and you drink, raise

30:26

a glass for them, and that's really important. And

30:29

I think our, you know, I well, half

30:31

welsh English, my

30:33

side of it was always very like, oh, you know, it's

30:35

quite, like, funerals. Oh,

30:37

like, what art? Oh, And Yeah.

30:40

It's all good. So if it's

30:42

not normal, then I guess if they're like

30:44

the like any social situation,

30:46

the less it's normal. That

30:48

kids go to them, the harder it is to

30:50

take your kids to them. I know it's not like

30:52

a day out, but it's like if

30:54

if if you know there's gonna be like ten

30:57

other kids there, that might make a noise

30:59

or might have to be taken out or might start running

31:01

around the church or wherever you're having it. But

31:04

when you know it might only

31:06

be adults and there's -- Yeah. -- you

31:08

know, you're the only person that might might

31:10

take your kid and if they make a sound. But

31:12

it's funny that we we're so afraid

31:14

of them even running round. Where you go Is

31:16

is that the worst thing that happened if you

31:18

know, some children running? That's right. But we're still And that's

31:20

so nice as well. Yeah. So nice to

31:22

see, like, the the life.

31:25

Yeah. Isn't it?

31:27

Really? That thing.

31:28

At my mom.

31:29

Mother knows Reno would she the niece was

31:31

there and the dog her dog was there, the mother

31:34

knows dog. And it was like, it

31:36

was that weird thing of like, like having

31:38

a kid or a dog unexpected adult party.

31:40

Like, it's a good icebreaker. You know what I mean? Like, everyone

31:42

is like, oh, a dog, a child. Like and

31:44

it is kind of this thing of, like, yeah, life goes

31:46

on. Like, that is what you're saying. Life

31:49

goes on and obviously don't want them, like,

31:51

up at the front doing Play Doh on the coffin,

31:53

like, sure. There's respect.

31:55

Yes. And it does depend on a child. You know?

31:58

I I totally I wouldn't -- Yeah. -- advocate

32:00

you if you've chosen not to do

32:01

that, it's totally

32:02

fine. Yeah. I just think it's funny that we get

32:05

so afraid of these things.

32:13

Welcome back to Griefcast with Cariad So

32:17

with your grand that died, you're

32:19

gaga. That's right. I just suddenly I'm sorry.

32:21

Am I saying that, ma'am? She

32:24

died in the lockdown or

32:26

between lockdown. So was did you have a

32:28

funeral then? Or was it

32:29

zoomed? Or was it it was like a zoom

32:31

one? Right. Yeah. And that was weird.

32:35

Yeah. So it was in the one

32:38

of the heaviest parts of lockdown, but

32:41

amazingly, my mom had, like, moved

32:43

in with her. Okay. Which is why I

32:45

guess she didn't have to have somebody there

32:47

go into home or something. Well,

32:49

I don't think she would've had to go into her home, but because

32:51

my mom's a nurse, she could be the nurse there,

32:54

which was Cariad, very helpful.

32:56

Yeah. But yeah. So

32:58

the funeral was over over

33:00

Zoom. And actually, my

33:03

my daughter didn't watch

33:05

that funeral. Yeah. It's because

33:07

I just thought that's not that's not the thing

33:10

that is, I think, is nice

33:12

for a kid to see family and

33:14

see what it's like and see it's alright to cry.

33:16

That's just like a bit too weird

33:19

for not weird, but I don't think it would

33:21

have had any positive -- Yeah.

33:23

-- thing really. Like, we'd gone

33:25

and visited our own hospital. We'd sorry.

33:30

This is not even about that, but one of

33:32

my favorite memories of of

33:34

like going to see her. And I guess I think about

33:36

these more because there was no funeral. Although,

33:39

really, I think it's more important to

33:41

go and see people when they're alive -- Yeah.

33:43

-- than to be able to get to their funeral. But

33:46

I remember trying to take her out of school.

33:48

And it was seen as an unauthorized

33:50

absence to go and visit my grandma a week before she

33:52

died, but the funeral was authorized. And I was like,

33:54

if I could choose one of these two of you,

33:57

like, to to say goodbye rather

33:59

than to go to the funeral, which I

34:01

I was like, this is strange. When

34:04

when we went up to visit her in hospital,

34:07

we we were my mom was living with

34:09

her then, and we

34:11

basically dressed up as her and put

34:13

on all her. She had all these, like, matching hats

34:15

and outfits and gloves and stuff, like, much

34:17

more elegant than we are.

34:20

So we went to the hospital, like, dressed up

34:22

really smart to to police

34:24

in all of her stuff. And I think

34:27

that people work and they must have thought we were

34:29

nuts. But she said she was, like, really bored for the

34:31

week that she was almost bored because there's no, like, they

34:33

can't listen to podcasts. There's no You just sit

34:35

with the newspaper. There's no radio. There's nothing. You

34:37

just sit in there. Like, bored and she was I

34:39

have loads of interest like most people want it's

34:41

I do stuff. So yeah.

34:44

But the so I thought, you know, you can't watch this

34:46

funeral on a TV, and I don't know how

34:48

I'm gonna feel about

34:49

this, but at least we, you know, dressed up us

34:51

her. Yeah. So you probably don't skip over

34:53

that. How did it go? What did she how what's her reaction?

34:55

Which you turned out dressed as her? That's

34:57

incredible. What her what was like your grandfather.

35:00

So we she she thought

35:02

we were nuts basically, but loved

35:04

it. Was like laughing and was sort

35:06

of telling people.

35:09

She is she is a Cariad, like,

35:12

well-to-do. So I guess,

35:14

quite typical was from Malachi,

35:16

quite full working class background and and

35:18

was dressed very smartly. For

35:20

that reason, I guess in the same reason that you

35:22

can't wear and I could track you that doesn't

35:24

match if you're from an area. You know that

35:27

you have to look better. You have you have

35:30

to improve yourself more, I think, you

35:32

know, which people can go go

35:34

wear ripped jeans and shopping shops, and

35:36

it's fine. But so she had

35:38

all these, like, very elegant outfits. So she was just

35:40

pleased that we'd like made an effort. She was always telling

35:42

me to make more of myself So it was

35:44

good. But her hats were amazing. It was

35:46

like like fur hats. Wow.

35:49

And I had this like long old

35:51

jacket on. Yeah. They were

35:53

great. Like, all max and stuff, but we went

35:55

for -- Wow. -- we went for brunch before.

35:58

We went to the hospital. Because we were in Glasgow

36:00

and and my boyfriend lives up there and

36:02

my mom was there and we went we went for

36:04

a brunch dressed like this and he was just like,

36:06

oh my god, this So this is so ridiculous.

36:09

But, yeah, it was good and this done the staff.

36:11

I don't know if, like, we weren't dressed as Yeah.

36:14

Yeah. Yeah. You just went on the first time. So

36:17

it's not like they would have thought that we

36:19

were in fancy dress. So just like apart

36:21

from maybe my daughter because she was in like

36:23

this sort of shiny red math

36:25

with, like, a big, like, quite a massive

36:27

math. But I think there's loads of stuff

36:29

like that, then it was actually quite fun with most.

36:31

It's so fun, but so far that must have chewed

36:34

up the hospital that day, especially in the middle of

36:36

a fucking

36:36

lockdown. Like anything that was jolly, you

36:38

were like, oh my god. Thank you. Thank

36:41

you

36:41

for making me laugh right now. think

36:43

it was quite and it was probably good for my

36:45

mom as well. I have awful. I've I've

36:47

written so much about losing my grandma,

36:49

and then I'm a boy of the poems I

36:52

I found her up to read it to her, and she was like,

36:54

well, it's really nice. Like, it it

36:56

was about the fact that I'm grandkids anymore,

36:58

like, not like a grandkids, and

37:00

and then she was like, yeah, I'm not like

37:02

a kid anymore. And I was like, yeah. I'm really sorry,

37:05

mom, that is way worse. That's

37:08

I guess, like, that I rocketed. I was

37:10

like, oh, it's so funny you're bumping, like,

37:12

Oh, is it hard for you, Hollie? You having a bad oh,

37:15

yeah. My mom died. But,

37:17

yeah, you you go ahead, baby. Go ahead.

37:20

Please go ahead and and you know what it's

37:22

like to be a

37:22

mom. Like, you still want your child to

37:24

be okay and happy, but, yeah, like, it's

37:26

it's And she still was really

37:28

pleased that a close relationship like I

37:30

am watching her and my

37:33

cadet. But, yeah, the lock the lockdown funeral was

37:35

was weird. I thought I really thought it would be okay

37:38

and I thought it might be quite nice because --

37:40

Yeah. -- you don't have to go to funeral

37:42

and stand up quickly and, like, cry in

37:44

front family. You have now. Yeah.

37:46

But I just, you know, I just focused rubbish and I

37:48

was totally on my own watch in it and my

37:51

kid was it was happened on one of the days

37:53

that my that dog was at her dad's house

37:55

anyway. But, yeah, it's just it was

37:57

very odd. And my family were angry about it

37:59

anyway because apparently, the vicar said he

38:01

was, like, rubbish. And my auntie stopped

38:03

going to church because it's it's a speech in my

38:05

grandfunny. So

38:06

Oh, no. It's like you had quite quite

38:09

like big in the, like, you know, just loads

38:11

of community stuff. In the church. So I was like, oh,

38:13

wow. That part. Get your shit. Get

38:15

your shit together a bit. Glad you've lost a follow-up.

38:19

Well, I've got a speech. am

38:21

I had to do go to a go to a Zoom funeral

38:25

in one of the, like, second lockdown or something

38:27

like that. Oh, I think it was when it was eased, but

38:29

we had symptoms, and it was when tests went

38:31

around so we couldn't go. Yeah.

38:33

And it was a friend. It wasn't family, but it

38:35

was such a strange experience.

38:37

And I I really understand what you're

38:39

saying because it just was so I

38:42

felt really lucky could be there because it was

38:44

like, oh, I am technically ill and I technically

38:47

can't go. So it's great that I'm

38:49

able to still be part of this, but it was

38:51

so odd. And, like,

38:54

they turned the cameras on early so, like, you were

38:56

in the wasn't a church, you know,

38:58

crematorium -- Yeah. -- while they were, like,

39:00

setting up. So it was such a weird experience

39:02

because you're like, well, I would in real life, I

39:04

wouldn't be here. I'd be outside with all the people

39:06

talking about them. And I'm just in while they're

39:09

having, like, a really banal admin

39:11

chat where to put things and like Okay.

39:13

Don't do that. And oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm finishing

39:15

at twelve. And it was just like it

39:17

felt like going behind the Cariad a

39:19

really bad way of, like, I don't want I

39:22

don't want this to be I don't want this to be

39:24

your job. Like, I want this to be heard

39:26

at the moment for this

39:27

person. Yeah. But it

39:28

it's your job, isn't it? And, of

39:30

course, it is. And, yeah, that was a very

39:33

it was really strange, wasn't it? Because, again, you feel

39:35

so grateful, like, if this pandemic happen twenty

39:38

years ago, what would we have done? No one would have known.

39:40

No. You just would have not gone. And

39:42

people would have been just buried alone.

39:44

But But also, it's not

39:46

like technology is magic. It's

39:48

not like, oh, everything's gonna be

39:50

like you. Yeah.

39:53

I can't hardly It's funny. Like,

39:55

saying about yeah. Just

39:57

seeing that it's, like, a very normal thing or this

39:59

isn't just for your friend. I

40:02

felt I felt exactly the same watching

40:06

it because, yeah, normally, you're saying, although quite

40:08

often when I've gone to the like the same

40:10

crematorium I've gone to, like, six

40:12

times for family members up in Glasgow

40:14

and

40:16

and quite often you get there when the the

40:18

last funerals still on.

40:19

Yeah. So you see other people coming out and you're

40:21

like, wow, this is like, it's literally just

40:24

like a -- One in one hour. -- liner.

40:26

Yeah. People yeah. It's weirder. And found

40:28

that. So I didn't I didn't see

40:30

behind the scenes at the beginning because

40:32

I was watching it on the thing

40:34

that I

40:36

I've right. Sometimes I feel funny

40:38

saying things that I've written about in a book. I feel

40:40

like it's not true.

40:41

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sweater.

40:45

But I didn't put the livestream

40:47

off. I was like sitting, crying,

40:50

and just sort sitting in silence in my

40:52

house. And I just expected

40:54

it to switch off. So I just didn't

40:57

really touch the screen. And then it didn't.

40:59

So I saw the end of it.

41:01

So everyone left, and I sort of watched

41:03

my mom and my auntie with her. There was, like, I think,

41:05

seven people there or something. But

41:09

then they started chatting about whether

41:11

they were gonna have like sandwiches now or

41:13

before the next one. And then and then

41:15

I watched the next one. Oh my gosh.

41:17

Because it didn't stop. I thought it would be like a

41:19

link per funeral. I didn't watch

41:21

all of it because then I thought I

41:24

don't even know if this is legal to watch

41:26

someone else's funeral. And also

41:28

it's weird. But I just I was just

41:30

sore staring. I was like, I don't know what to do after

41:32

watching my grandfooner online. I

41:34

can't go and see anyone. I'm like, oh, is that

41:36

a dad's so I'll

41:38

just sit here, like, whatever.

41:42

But yeah, I remember watching the next

41:44

people come in and for Well,

41:46

I'll just watch this and then I'll say, well, like,

41:49

I put this off. You don't know this

41:51

guy, you don't know the people. Like, they don't

41:53

expect somebody to me to watch in it, but it was

41:55

weird seeing, like, actually seeing

41:57

all that chat. All that chat show we have sandwiches

42:00

now, do you reckon? That's it. Excuse me. No.

42:02

It was my grandma's whole life just sometimes

42:04

--

42:04

Yeah. -- am I concerned? And you're just

42:06

like dusting and picking up first. But it's what it always

42:08

comes back to what you're saying because you're almost like a ghost.

42:11

You feel like a ghost, like, no one can see you.

42:13

An equally like we're saying about ghosts to deaf people,

42:15

then you realize, well, this is a bit weird and boring.

42:17

I don't really want to be here. Even

42:20

though I can be here, I am yeah.

42:22

I'm alright. I just wanna go and do something else. Like,

42:24

it's it's a really it's very

42:26

strange. But I totally understand

42:28

sign because mine did the same thing, didn't switch off.

42:30

I kept expecting switch off. I had to switch off.

42:32

But was it even switching off felt a bit weird

42:34

because it felt it was sort of switching that person off?

42:36

Like, if I not rude, whereas

42:39

when you leave a funeral, like, everybody

42:41

leaves together and you're sort of swept up in it, aren't

42:43

you? And so -- Yeah. -- and if you don't want to go, you're

42:45

like, well, we're all being kicked out. And like,

42:47

here we go as a

42:48

gang, whereas just you with your laptop

42:50

clicking, do you wish to end this, like, window

42:53

you're like Yeah. -- well, not really.

42:55

But And yet, that's true.

42:57

It's And you only have the you only have the

43:01

I know some people see it as a nice bit, but in my

43:03

daughter's words, the boring bit

43:04

of a feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Like so

43:06

it wasn't like maybe it

43:08

would have been nice if for people's funerals.

43:11

We didn't watch the

43:12

funeral, but then we did go to the afterpain.

43:14

You know, it's open. A cake can go on Zoom and chat or

43:16

something. You know what I mean? There could have been

43:19

could have been that bit that you that you

43:21

tried to do would have been harder, obviously.

43:24

But yeah, it was it was

43:27

it was weird. Really thought it'd be alright, but

43:29

it was just really weird and

43:31

not being able to chat. And then

43:33

people around you, not

43:35

knowing. Yeah. I had that with

43:37

a friend as well who who died, and

43:40

it was that was the the like,

43:42

the worst awful. But but that

43:44

was Was it before?

43:46

Yeah. It was before lockdown and everything.

43:49

But it was weird because it was in in Scotland,

43:52

and it was a bit like that when

43:55

he died and it was, like, the

43:57

the worst experience of his

43:59

his life my life, I think,

44:01

so far. But

44:03

I came back from Scotland here and no

44:06

one where I live. I've

44:08

got quite like a split life -- Mhmm. -- half

44:10

where I am as like a mom

44:12

in this quiet village and

44:14

then half probably

44:16

in in Scotland. And I'm

44:19

I came back and, like, nobody knew anything

44:22

that had happened. Nobody knew him. And

44:24

it was a bit like that there. There was just this like,

44:26

silence and I I would go on the

44:29

school run and and no one like,

44:31

I've been we've been, like, looking for his

44:33

his body for, like, three days and

44:36

walk it like it was just really awful

44:39

and everyone just

44:41

thought I'd like my door was away at the time for

44:43

a week with her dad and everyone just thought I'd sort of

44:45

on holiday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

44:47

ask me and didn't know anything. And I just I

44:49

really wanted people to to know

44:52

and to also be sad you. And

44:54

I was like and I guess I felt like that a bit

44:56

of the zoom. It's like, oh, no

44:58

one around me

44:59

sad, like, at least when you're feeling like every one

45:01

is sad, and everyone's feeling crazy

45:03

about it. You see the point of them? Like, that's the funny

45:05

thing, you know, when you have when they're taken from

45:07

you, those rituals, I think pre pandemic you're like,

45:09

oh, yeah. Funeral's. I mean, okay, I get it. Like,

45:11

we'll go. And -- Yeah. -- you've

45:13

gotta do it. And then when it was gone, you were like,

45:15

oh, I see. The point of it is you need

45:18

to be around people who feel exactly like

45:20

you do, who love the right you did,

45:22

who was sad, like, because you can't take

45:24

that energy. It's hard take

45:26

that energy to tell the faces because other people are like, what?

45:28

Like, why are you bringing this in? Like

45:30

--

45:30

Yeah. -- or they don't knock on people's doors.

45:33

Me. I

45:36

don't know. Can I come in? Like, okay.

45:38

It's a lockdown. So no. Yeah.

45:41

It's it's that feeling of community.

45:44

It is such a cliche, and I feel like Cheezy's

45:46

fuck saying it. But it's like that community

45:48

feeling of like this family, this

45:51

gang, this group of friends, whatever your community

45:53

we all feel sad about this

45:55

person. Yeah.

45:56

As I make weddings, you're like, we all love these

45:58

people. Yay. They love each other. Yay. Like

46:00

Yeah. Yeah. -- and this is so you feel like part

46:02

of a cog in machine. You know? You're like, yes, I'm

46:04

not alone. Like, that's what we need

46:06

as humans. Yeah. But because survive

46:10

on our own, can survive without community. I think

46:12

we, you know, do trick ourselves about, oh, it's

46:14

not that important. Oh, yeah. Zinfuina will be fine.

46:16

But that sort of cake, you know, that physical

46:18

cake is like you needed to be around people who

46:20

are gonna like offer you some dry cake and

46:23

a drink and help you

46:25

and, yeah, to not have that is

46:27

is hard when you're and it's funny, isn't

46:29

it? Because obviously, there were these tiny funerals

46:31

and the immediate family were there, you

46:33

know, like said there's like seven people who could get

46:35

there. But then if you were slightly like the next

46:38

ring round it, then you couldn't

46:40

make the excuse

46:41

to be there and and then it like,

46:44

again, we come back to hierarchy of grief. That doesn't mean

46:46

you're not sad because you weren't in the immediate

46:48

circle of being

46:50

there. You still have your grief to process and

46:52

you couldn't hug. Could you? I'm looking at my

46:54

mom saying that was so weird and she was

46:56

like, I've got that off of weird like

46:59

being there and then you just sort

47:01

of wave and leave. Oh, it's like

47:03

I mean, that must have been it must have been equally

47:06

weird to be there and, like, sit apart

47:08

from people and Yeah.

47:11

Really odd. Really, really

47:13

odd. Just all of it. And you couldn't I

47:15

remember one of my grandfather's might and

47:17

my family's quite good the old doggy bag thing --

47:19

Mhmm. -- like, don't like any leftovers, which

47:21

is a good good thing, I think.

47:24

remember my dad's in it's her main

47:26

memory of this funeral was my dad telling her to

47:28

go around and collect all the cakes before,

47:30

like, before they're all

47:32

taken by the staff.

47:36

It's like, god. Not even

47:38

at a funeral. We're like, come on, get

47:40

them, get those sandwiches. That's a quick. Okay.

47:42

Great. Yeah. And

47:45

yeah. It's it's really odd. thing was even

47:47

odd or is it wasn't that long ago. Like, we're still

47:50

in the bit where it was, like, it was only, like, two

47:52

years ago and you're, like, god. III

47:54

checked myself and I was like, was it two years ago?

47:57

I've lost all concept of of

47:59

time because of

48:00

the, like, the gap in our life. Make

48:03

too. And so it's it's just amazing, I

48:05

think, what you say about I

48:08

I never really thought I was bothered about

48:10

going to funerals and never thought I wanted to. Yeah. And

48:12

it's soon as I couldn't. It wasn't even just

48:14

not going. It was just like you

48:16

say realizing what the point of it was.

48:19

Yeah. And has has a funeral, like, two weeks

48:21

ago, my auntie died, and it's the first

48:23

funeral that we've had in

48:26

in person. And my

48:28

daughter came to that as well and it was just

48:31

it was like, oh, I can even

48:33

watch in her go into it after knowing

48:35

that that didn't happen to my grandma we did

48:38

other things. If my grand light, we've got this

48:40

this little box that we we sniff

48:42

basically, basically, sometimes. It's

48:45

like, so furniture

48:47

out my grand house that smells of

48:49

her house, you know. Yeah. We keep our towels in

48:52

it and got a few things of her stuff in it.

48:54

Yeah. Every now and again, my door is

48:56

like, oh, can I can I

48:58

sleep? Can I sleep in the box?

49:00

It's like you're right. But when when

49:02

we went to my aunt and that was really sudden.

49:04

We went up to visit for holiday and had to stay

49:06

longer because she died.

49:09

And just seeing her she was saying, a man, this

49:11

is so awkward. Like, a bit older,

49:14

but I still was like, nah, this is

49:16

really good that you're hearing. You've got a mail for people

49:18

in the family, and you've talked about her

49:20

and you've had jokes with people

49:22

and all this sort of stuff. But I think

49:24

I was like, it was like a documentary in

49:26

my headlight. Okay? So she didn't do this. And

49:28

the when she was this age. And now,

49:30

well, of course, she's gonna be like this one now

49:33

she's twelve and really understands what's going

49:35

on more and you know

49:37

bored. Yeah. I was like, oh, it's a bit boring

49:39

now. And I was like, I think that's that's

49:41

also good.

49:42

Totally good. Yeah. In general,

49:44

but it's all you'll remember

49:46

it and you'll if somebody talks about it, you'll have been

49:48

there and all this

49:49

stuff. Yeah. It was funny. It looked funny. It

49:51

was it was sort of interesting. Yeah. And

49:53

I think, again, something is a you

49:55

realize the privilege it is to go to a funeral. And

49:57

of course, you're you're bored at twelve. It absolutely

50:00

should be. Like, that's the right reaction. But

50:02

as you get old doing anything. Oh, I was

50:04

invited into that space and was well planned.

50:07

And that's again, like, so when something emotional

50:09

happened, when family event was full of sadness.

50:11

I was part of

50:12

that. I am part of

50:13

this family. I am allowed these these negative

50:15

feelings as well. Like, it's so weird. Yeah. You'll

50:17

just teach and this like, this is it. This is life.

50:19

Sometimes we go to a party. Sometimes we go to

50:22

a funeral. But you were part of it. You were part

50:24

of this

50:24

gang. think that's And you see that these

50:26

people that are one thing to you, which is

50:28

also pretty good for kids to see.

50:31

Like this idea that your mom is there

50:33

for this or your teacher, you know, the idea of

50:35

a teacher in the street, like, what you did in

50:37

our school out of school clothes. Like, who are you?

50:40

don't even know what's going on anymore.

50:42

What do you mean you've got a name my first name.

50:44

But like seeing knowing then

50:46

that, you know, that her great

50:48

auntie was also a mother

50:51

and also a grandmother and also a

50:53

friend and also, you know,

50:55

someone's wife and all this different stuff,

50:58

knowing that this these people and

51:00

a like with my brand, you know, know knowing she

51:03

she met those of my grandfather's friends and stuff afterwards

51:05

because we had to, like, get together and just

51:07

knowing that this person that you're you've

51:10

got such a small idea of people when

51:12

you're younger, don't you? It's like that you're

51:14

it's not everything. It's and they're And

51:17

tities wasn't just that and you had one

51:19

bit of them, and then they also had all

51:21

these other lives. Yeah. That's massive.

51:23

That's no order.

51:24

Yeah. That's incredible. And to know that

51:26

going into you growing as a person

51:29

being like, oh, I see. Yeah. I'm gonna have all these different

51:31

lives. I'm

51:31

not just me

51:32

now fixed. This is

51:33

who I am. Which

51:34

one you or Tino do you like? This is who I am.

51:36

Defied. Yeah. I'll never change

51:38

lines as well. Yeah. Online

51:40

people put that down there. She was like, why

51:42

does everyone just have, like, wife

51:44

and mother on that, you know, as they get to

51:46

a certain age, and I I don't sometimes

51:49

I'm just like, they're like, really, you know,

51:51

everyone, you know, sort of follow-up it. But I

51:53

get the, like, the, you know,

51:56

the biggest roles in your lungs you put

51:58

on your But there's so many people,

52:00

you know, identify themselves in, like, five words

52:02

on social media, which I think this generation

52:04

is

52:05

very, you

52:05

know, sees all time. And it's

52:07

the same I talked about this with Julius Samuel.

52:09

He's amazing amazing. The same Julia,

52:11

we called on a show, psychotherapies. And

52:14

she was she was talking about saying

52:16

about mental like people like anxiety

52:18

girl

52:19

or, you know, like, grief girl and I get it,

52:21

I understand, but it is it she said it

52:23

takes away room for you

52:24

to change, which is what we know we're going

52:26

to. Like your grandma, like you said, didn't go bought she was

52:28

seventy five and then she was like, right, let's do this.

52:30

Like, I thought her at twenty

52:32

five, if you'd said that to her, she's like, oh, no. That

52:34

that isn't possible. I don't live in that world.

52:37

Yeah.

52:37

See, like, how fast things change. And,

52:40

yeah, I think that's that's really interesting.

52:42

I remember my my granddad's

52:45

funerals. They died. In my mom's side, they

52:47

died two weeks apart from each other.

52:49

And I didn't really know that he was the oldest

52:51

of five. I think it's like seven or eight. And

52:54

his youngest brother came in And

52:56

I and all of us who, like, had only really

52:58

seen my granddad as a granddad were like, oh, the fuck?

53:00

That's my granddad. Like, that's him. Why's why's he up and

53:02

walking? Because they're like the spit of each other.

53:04

It was so weird. Yeah. And it was

53:06

such a great experience to them, me, or his

53:08

sisters, and he'd be like, and hear

53:10

about this life, you know, give you the my

53:14

mom's I'd proper cottonies and, like,

53:16

all this, like, stories of that

53:18

mischief and

53:18

everything. Yeah. And I was

53:20

like,

53:20

oh, and again, I remember vividly being

53:22

about I think it was about twelve of team

53:24

being like, oh, I see. We were just one

53:26

little bit of this and we weren't even that big. We weren't

53:29

even like Yeah. I thought we were very

53:31

interesting, but actually Yeah. So

53:33

this life and think that's and you

53:35

know, that's sort of what people talk about when

53:38

when someone does live to a long age. There

53:40

is all this life as so much that you

53:42

can talk about and celebrate and remember

53:44

and that's like that's wonderful. Yeah.

53:47

And that's a really joyous that you can have at

53:49

a funeral. But yeah, I think that's important for

53:51

kids to see that as well. Like, because I think when

53:53

you're a grandkid, you do get a bit it's

53:56

not this isn't the right word, but not big headed,

53:58

but like you think you're very important. Don't you climb the

54:00

grandchild? I'm very important. Yeah. I'm her grandchild.

54:03

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm pretty

54:05

much number one. And then you then you because

54:08

you are. You really are. You hold a very special

54:10

place, obviously. But then, yeah, to see that

54:12

actually, oh, there's a lot of people who are number one that speaking

54:15

to this person. Oh, who were number one and have

54:17

changed and them. I think that's yeah.

54:19

So, not that you need to, like, be you

54:21

know, you don't need to be taken in pedestal. Don't

54:23

mean it like that. I just mean it like to see that someone

54:25

is what a whole person looks

54:27

like, I guess. Oh, no. Totally. Totally.

54:30

I I even thought that about yeah.

54:32

I guess, my

54:34

grandma and I was bought, like,

54:37

thirty seven or something. And

54:39

it's like, I know you've got so many friends. I know you've

54:41

got other life, but it's

54:43

still good to

54:44

see. Yeah. It's still good to hear about.

54:47

Yeah. It's good. It's such a thing as a grandkid,

54:49

maybe because you are normally it when

54:51

you're you know, there's not that many

54:54

much older adult grandkids once you

54:56

sort of realize that

54:57

stuff. Yeah. And it and obviously,

54:59

they're they're overjoyed by you, and they don't have to, like,

55:01

do the annoying stuff. So,

55:03

like, I just like Honestly, it

55:05

must be so good. Yeah. My mom's always saying

55:07

it's, like, much better to be a grown mother-in-law. Yeah.

55:10

But, no, you know, loving less

55:12

way, which is just like amazing.

55:14

They like like you better than your kids do. Yeah.

55:16

And you do list. You have to

55:18

do and you only do the good stuffs that

55:20

it is is the best.

55:22

Sounds really good. Best of luck. They like

55:24

you more and you do list. That is a

55:26

if that's not an advertisement for being a grandparent

55:28

at

55:28

all. It's like No. Right.

55:31

It's amazing.

55:32

Yes, please. Or or auntie. I've

55:34

just become an auntie and I'm feeling that later

55:37

today. This is great. Yeah.

55:39

Hollie, I know you had written some

55:42

poems about

55:43

her. Do you want to read one?

55:44

Yeah. Alright. Well, I just want to think which one

55:46

to they're quite soppy.

55:48

No. It's nice. We'll find one. No. No. No

55:50

one. We'll finish on a nice soppy

55:52

pound but your gaga. I mean, that's perfect.

55:55

Okay. Cool. I do this one.

55:58

It's called Colicino,

56:01

which I'm quite assessed

56:03

with words that only exist in, like, one

56:05

language -- Yeah. -- that we don't have other words

56:07

for. So it's an Italian word, and it

56:09

it just means like the you put,

56:11

like, really cold glass on table, it leaves that, like,

56:14

watermark. But they've got a specific

56:16

word for, like, the mark left by, like,

56:18

cooling, wow. Because I really good today,

56:20

which I thought was cool. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's

56:22

like the mark that my grand left on me. It doesn't

56:24

sound so it seems so deep now as it did out

56:26

time. But I wrote this slide in that

56:29

few hours was like after

56:31

watching the Zoom channel and not knowing what to

56:33

do. And I was just thinking of all the things that

56:35

she wanted to do. Like I was saying, like, she

56:37

still wanted to do loads and wanted to learn more.

56:39

And she really wanted to go to Italy. So

56:42

and she I think she really wanted to dance

56:44

with few more, like, sailors and stuff.

56:46

Like, we talked about a sex and awful lot.

56:49

And we talked about orgasms a lot, because she was saying

56:52

so many women her age didn't have one. Right. That's

56:54

one of the biggest regrets. Weirdly,

56:57

that sort of that sort of stuff in life

57:00

at her age. It's like you lived till you were,

57:02

you know, really good age. You had a beautiful

57:04

life. But there were certain things,

57:06

especially to see, like, a female pleasure that

57:09

were not talked about, which I have

57:11

the opportunity to know, not

57:13

that I'm, you know, to have an old dozen to my

57:15

granddad's stuff. But

57:17

I picked out all this stuff. I picked out all the

57:20

stuff that I wanna do. And now I'm just using my

57:22

grounds and skills. Yeah. We do it. We do it all the

57:24

time of food. Let's have this Dr Pepper. My auntie would

57:26

have wanted me to. She'd like to cake.

57:29

Kala Chino. The

57:32

scent of a story still clings to your chair,

57:35

unaware the narrator is gone. Your

57:37

night gowns are folded and boxed for collection

57:40

your pots of fake flowers act like nothing

57:42

is wrong. On my knees, on

57:44

the rug, still glittered with skin.

57:46

I pocket the daydreams you dropped You're

57:48

longing so locked in by duty in place.

57:51

Let me flick past the page where you stopped.

57:53

Ink those stockings again at the backs of

57:55

my legs. Let me stride through the almost

57:58

that titted your lips. Shame has

58:00

lessened its cuffs now, your lady

58:02

like scars, mere marks on my wrists.

58:05

One last clink to you gran, Italy

58:07

calls. They say the poems are gorgeous

58:09

this time of year. Yes, I promise

58:12

to press at least one red poppy. Yes, I promise

58:14

to dip all my toes in the shore. Then

58:16

I'll sip on espresso Scuffle, the ricotta,

58:19

melt mozzarella, lap up the days from

58:21

the plate, lick gelato sip on Prosecco,

58:23

lick lickable moons keep the night times awake.

58:26

So come away with me grand. Let us dance

58:28

in the dusk. Those jumbo jokes

58:30

were too good to waste. Let's take up

58:32

the hems you polite he declined. Spin

58:35

topped the stars till our ankle bones break.

58:37

Let me scream. All the screams your

58:40

times turn to sin. Waltz.

58:42

All the waltz is your fingers for bait.

58:44

Let us hang out our hearts in this hot lashing

58:46

rain till we are both of us drenched our

58:48

bodies of cake. And

58:50

yes, I am picking my favorite

58:53

laments from your never did's, never

58:55

will, too little, too late's, but

58:57

fix ripen too fast for the Sunday Times

58:59

crossword and I'm not bothered to learn how to bake.

59:02

So if Yanik on May, at Taliagram, feel

59:05

the healing of heat on uncensored souls.

59:07

Let's laugh in Piazza's sleep phase

59:09

down in pizza. I miss you.

59:11

I'm already mute. Oh.

59:16

Ali, that's so Oh,

59:18

I was gonna say nice. That's not the right word.

59:21

Oh, no. I love the word nice. That's so nice.

59:25

That's such a nice. What

59:27

a lovely, lovely poem. Thanks.

59:31

I'm just using a goose sculpture to Italy. My

59:33

daughter's still like

59:34

mom, we've got to go to Italy. I was

59:35

like, but I'll

59:38

I'll take you when you're a bit older. She's like, why? And I

59:40

was like, because it's quite privilege to go to Italy.

59:43

I was like I feel like it's like

59:45

Italy and my head was where, like, they're really

59:48

up, hard, up market or whatever where

59:50

people went that I know. Yeah. So I'm

59:52

like, oh, no. You can't go to Italy yet, then you'll

59:54

be like, it's properly spoiled, which

59:56

is like, it's just next to Spain. We've been to Spain.

59:58

I'm like, I don't know nine. That's just different.

1:00:01

Like, my grand never got there. Yeah. My auntie

1:00:03

never got to

1:00:03

Italy. They were both of setters

1:00:05

and movies and

1:00:06

stuff about it out to sideburn.

1:00:09

You should go fuck it. Just go. I think

1:00:11

I will. I will. I will. I will. I will. I've only

1:00:13

I'm they can Or take her when she can drink

1:00:16

wine. That's the only other thing I'd say. When

1:00:18

I said coffee, she's always Oh, yeah. Because

1:00:20

I'm not having you're not drinking

1:00:22

Like, you

1:00:22

need to start drinking Hollie. And I was like,

1:00:25

I'll buy your coffee.

1:00:26

You need to lose. If

1:00:26

we go to Italy. And I was like, wow, that

1:00:29

is that is glass. Oh,

1:00:33

Holly, thank you so much, and thank you for

1:00:35

remembering Isabelle Gaga. It was under your

1:00:37

other gram as well and your

1:00:38

friend, it was really really lovely. Well,

1:00:40

thanks for letting me. It was lovely to talk about

1:00:42

them. If

1:00:46

you want any news about where Hollie is gigging

1:00:48

or her books that you can buy head to holly

1:00:50

poetry dot com, Holly

1:00:52

is H0LLIE,

1:00:55

poetry, P0ETRY,

1:00:57

dot com. You can follow her on Twitter

1:00:59

and Instagram at holly poetry, same

1:01:01

spelling. And her new book slug is

1:01:04

available to buy now as well as all her other

1:01:06

books, which are absolutely brilliant. Save

1:01:08

you. Know anybody's just have a kid to parenting

1:01:10

on. Nobody told me as a pitch you

1:01:12

brilliant. You can follow us

1:01:14

on Twitter and Instagram at the Griefcast.

1:01:17

The show was recorded

1:01:18

remotely. It was did by the amazing

1:01:20

Kate Holland. Thank you Kate for editing

1:01:23

along the way.

1:01:26

We'll be back. Maybe soon. I'm not sure.

1:01:28

Thank you for listening. Thank you for everything.

1:01:31

Thank you for buying the book. You

1:01:34

don't have to stop buying a book just because the podcast

1:01:36

is on a break. Let's just make that clear.

1:01:40

Thank you, guys. Remember, If

1:01:43

you know I might not be here next week or

1:01:45

I'm not sure when the show, if it

1:01:47

will come back, it doesn't

1:01:49

change anything. Doesn't

1:01:51

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1:01:53

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1:01:56

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1:01:58

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1:02:00

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1:02:03

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1:02:05

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1:02:08

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1:02:10

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