0:05

Hey, there, can I give an ice lavender

0:08

macha latte with almond milk and

0:10

light ice. Oh, and I'll take that

0:12

carrot muffin too.

0:14

For sure. That'll be eleven seventy eight.

0:17

And you can just tap your card to your phone right there, and then

0:19

once it's gone through, it'll ask if you want to leave a tip.

0:21

Oh right, okay.

0:25

This is a very common

0:28

scene these days. You find yourself

0:30

patronizing a place like a coffee shop,

0:32

where you walked up to a counter, ordered

0:34

and waited at the counter for something you purchased

0:36

to be ready for your consumption. But in

0:38

the not so distant past, this wasn't

0:41

a transaction on which we normally tipped.

0:43

And now it's not just coffee shops

0:45

asking for your choice of ten, fifteen,

0:48

or twenty percent. It's the salad bar

0:50

across from the office, the dry cleaners down

0:52

the block, and even the local grocery

0:54

store now has a tip jar at the checkout. According

0:57

to data from Pew Research Center, seventy

0:59

two percent of adults say tipping

1:01

is expected in more places today

1:04

than compared to five years ago. But the

1:06

same survey also reveals that people

1:08

are hella confused about which services

1:11

and products they should be tipping on. Only

1:14

thirty four percent of Americans feel very

1:16

confident in knowing which goods or services

1:18

to tip for and how much. Tipflation

1:22

is a term many economists have started using

1:24

to describe the rising pressure for

1:26

tips in newer spaces. But how

1:28

important is tipping to our economy?

1:31

Should the consumer be responsible for ensuring

1:33

a living wage to service workers? Or

1:36

is there more to the picture than we're seeing?

1:38

And can someone please explain to me how much

1:40

I should be tipping for my mancho latte with almond

1:42

milk. Start taking notes because

1:45

this.

1:45

Is grown stuff.

1:52

Hey, Hey, my tip weary friends, Welcome

1:54

to another exciting episode of grown Up Stuff

1:56

how To Adults, the podcast dedicated

1:58

to help you learn grow up lessons

2:00

like how to calculate the tip on your dinner bill

2:03

and figuring out how much to tip your barista

2:05

on a single cup of coffee. I'm

2:07

Mollie and as always I am joined by a man

2:09

who needs no introduction and always tips

2:11

twenty percent. Matt Heillo.

2:14

Now. A few days ago, Matt I sent you a link

2:17

to a Pew Research Center

2:19

quiz. It's titled do

2:22

you tip more or less often? Than the average

2:24

American. Tell me what some of your

2:26

results are. I'm going to share some of mine.

2:28

My response is were I don't think we're all that

2:30

interesting because I typically tip, But

2:33

seeing where most people are tipping,

2:35

so like eating at a restaurant where there are

2:37

servers, obviously getting a haircut,

2:40

I was happy to see because who doesn't enjoy

2:42

catching up with their barber. This

2:44

is what was interesting though to me, it seems like a lot of people

2:46

are not tipping at the coffee

2:48

house.

2:49

That's the area that confuses me the most. In this situation.

2:52

The question is are you always tipping off and tipping,

2:54

sometimes tipping, rarely tipping, or never tipping?

2:57

And buying a coffee or other beverage

2:59

at a coffee shop. Twelve percent said they

3:01

always tip, another twelve percent said

3:03

they often tip, twenty seven

3:05

the majority said they sometimes

3:07

tip, twenty three percent said they

3:09

rarely tip, and twenty five percent said

3:12

never tip. I fell squarely in that twenty seven

3:14

percent because it's a quick interaction.

3:17

I'm not sitting down and being served consistently

3:19

over a period of time, and I

3:22

just don't know now. I usually because

3:24

again I have built relationships with the

3:26

coffee shops that I go to, especially in my neighborhood,

3:29

so I tip those places. But if it's

3:31

like a place that I don't

3:33

have a strong connection to, I don't

3:36

know that I'll always tip.

3:37

I worked at a coffee bar, and so there

3:40

definitely are different types of coffee. Like if I go to a

3:42

shop and they're just like opening a tap and pouring

3:44

coffee into it and giving it to you in a cup, like, that's

3:46

a different situation. But if you're going to what they

3:48

call like a third wave coffee bar, where they're doing all

3:50

the drinks, all the espressos, the mochas,

3:52

they're whipping up the phone, they're pouring

3:54

your latte art, I mean, that is a really big skill,

3:57

and you're you're paying for a little bit more of a

3:59

bespoke coffe the experience in bespoke

4:01

surface, and so in that situation, I would

4:03

definitely tip.

4:04

Well, Matt, I'm curious, what are

4:07

some of the questions you have about

4:10

tipping still, Like, what are the biggest points of confusion

4:12

for you?

4:13

You and I were talking about this where it's just like if there

4:15

is this big divide between like if you're eating a

4:17

restaurant with their service people are tipping, and there's

4:19

a restaurant withe there's no servers, people aren't tipping. Then

4:22

what we were talking about is kind of like, then what are we tipping

4:24

for? Are we tipping for just

4:26

the fact of someone having bringing

4:29

walking food out of a kitchen and putting it on

4:31

your table? Like is it like are

4:33

you tipping for like the kindness or

4:36

the friendliness of the interaction, or

4:38

how quickly people are, you know, coming

4:40

out to you, or.

4:41

On the quality of the product.

4:42

It's the quality of the product itself, you

4:45

know, is it situational? So

4:47

are there any hard and fast rules? Was

4:49

like my biggest question? What about you?

4:51

I agree?

4:52

And on top of that, I want to add

4:55

like tipping practices during the holiday

4:57

season, like for people who you interact

4:59

with every day, like I've you know, often read

5:02

about or heard about like tipping your landlord

5:04

or or yeah,

5:06

what exactly are the rules? And like how much

5:08

should you be tipping during the holidays? But I

5:10

think you and I will get answers to all of

5:12

our tipping questions because if

5:15

you haven't guessed it yet, we're talking

5:17

about tipping today.

5:19

This is accurate and we're going

5:21

to learn about it all from our guest Stacy Vanocksmith.

5:25

Stacey is the author of the book Machiavelli

5:28

for Women and also a long time public

5:30

radio reporter and audio journalist. You

5:32

may know her from her work with NPR's Planet

5:35

Money and from her time as the Global

5:37

Economics correspondent for NPR.

5:39

And while she was at NPR, Stacy guest

5:41

hosted an episode of the show Life Kit about

5:43

tipping culture and practices. Today,

5:46

she is a senior story editor for Bloomberg

5:48

Audio.

5:50

Stacy Vanicksmith, Welcome to the

5:52

show. We are so excited to have you

5:54

here. We are going to talk about tipping,

5:57

and I want to start off with a very very basic question.

6:00

How did tipping begin? Where did this all

6:02

come from?

6:03

Well, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to

6:05

be here. I feel like this is

6:07

a hard question to start with because it gets very

6:10

dark very quickly there.

6:12

It started after the

6:14

Civil War when slavery ended. Okay,

6:17

so people who had been enslaved

6:20

were suddenly on the job market getting

6:22

jobs, and I think a lot of service

6:24

jobs were suddenly opened up to people who'd been enslaved,

6:27

and the pay for these was abysmal. And

6:29

so this practice started of people tipping

6:32

because tipping seemed like sort

6:34

of a middle ground between someone making

6:37

a living wage and someone

6:39

being enslaved essentially. So it's

6:41

the history of it is horrific. And

6:44

you know, if you go to other countries, if you travel

6:47

abroad, a lot of times a tip is like a

6:49

couple bucks or you know, just sort of a like

6:51

thank you. It's not like a

6:53

substantial part of someone's

6:55

pay. It's only really

6:58

here that we do that tipping.

7:00

It's just a mess. And I've looked at tipping

7:03

for a while. I find it really

7:05

interesting. It is a huge part

7:07

of our culture. I think there are good things about it,

7:09

for sure, But I don't think

7:11

I've ever talked to anyone who is like this system

7:13

is awesome, Like no one likes

7:15

it. Yeah, no, but it's our system.

7:18

This is the system we have.

7:20

It's actually interesting to learn that because like,

7:22

there's something to me that is always and I

7:24

used to work in restaurants and stuff, there's something to me is

7:26

always felt inherently wrong about

7:29

tipping. That like, if people

7:31

are like depending on this as part of their cell, then you're

7:33

not paying your staff what

7:35

they deserve to be paid. You know, my wife

7:37

and I one of our favorite restaurants is this Japanese

7:40

restaurant called Ichran, and they've carried

7:42

over their culture of it being a

7:44

no tipping establishment, and that's part of why

7:47

we love it so much. It just feels like if

7:49

they're not asking for a tip, then they're paying their

7:51

workers a fair wage and the

7:53

service is still awesome. But

7:56

that said, tipping doesn't exist in many cultures.

7:58

But are we seeing a shift where other places are starting

8:00

to adopt our system?

8:02

I feel like all of us have deep emotions

8:04

around tipping, especially lately

8:07

because money is tight, prices

8:09

have gone up so much. The culture

8:11

around tipping has changed pretty suddenly and

8:13

pretty extremely. But the idea

8:16

of not tipping, it's so hard, and

8:18

you know, people will say like, oh, you don't have to tip

8:20

here, and it's like, I don't. But I

8:22

actually think the culture around tipping was starting

8:24

to change here before the pandemic in

8:26

the US, because there was like Danny

8:28

Meyer and David Chang had like

8:31

published op eds in the New York Times saying like we're not

8:33

having tipping, and they explained it

8:35

saying, listen, this creates

8:37

a lot of inequity in the kitchen. I think Danny

8:39

Meyer was like, my chefs are making less than

8:42

the bartender because of tips,

8:44

and they don't get distributed equitably.

8:46

And I just make sure I pay everybody a living wage.

8:49

And so, you know, you'd go to one of these restaurants

8:51

kind of like you were saying, Matt, and there was this feeling of

8:53

like, Oh, everybody's actually

8:56

being taken care of, they are making a living

8:58

wage. This isn't on me. Yeah,

9:00

And I mean, I think the reason that we

9:03

find this topic so endlessly

9:05

fascinating and interesting is

9:08

because we know there's something

9:10

wrong with the system, and we feel it all

9:12

the time. I think that strange feeling you were talking

9:14

about, Matt, is like that you're

9:17

like, something's wrong here. I'm being

9:19

asked to tip as if it's just like a

9:21

thank you, but it feels

9:23

like it's not really a thank you. You're supplementing

9:26

someone who's been underpaid. So it's

9:29

messed up.

9:30

Yeah, yeah, it is.

9:32

This gets very politicized very fast. People

9:34

have extremely strong opinions about tipping.

9:36

I think one of the reasons that it's hung around

9:39

is a lot of like kind of powerful

9:41

interest groups around restaurants, Like basically

9:44

it's a way for restaurants to post lower

9:47

prices and to still

9:49

get a higher amount of money to employees,

9:52

like a competitive pay to employees.

9:54

And I think when restaurants try to

9:56

not do that, which Danny Meyer and David Chang did

9:59

before the pandem but they both went back

10:01

to tipping during the pandemic. There really

10:03

people were having so much trouble finding people to work.

10:06

And if you're going to pick a restaurant to work at

10:08

and it's really competitive and you have like five job

10:10

offers, are you going to go to the place

10:12

that's like, we're not going to tip you, We're going to pay you a solid

10:14

living wage versus Especially

10:17

during the pandemic, people were I think

10:19

had an increased awareness of

10:21

essential workers and the importance of that work

10:23

and the difficulty of it, and so the tips

10:26

were pretty good. It's like, I'm not gonna

10:28

not get tips. So I

10:30

think they went back to a tipping situation

10:33

just to be competitive enough to get the workers

10:35

they wanted they had to.

10:36

Interesting, Yeah,

10:42

tipping can be super fraught

10:44

and complicated. While some

10:46

service workers saw an increase in tips from

10:48

twenty twenty to twenty twenty one, especially food

10:50

delivery workers and workers with a

10:52

more distant role at quick service and full service

10:55

restaurants. According to a

10:57

study published in the Compensation and

10:59

Benefits or View, others saw

11:01

a decrease in tips, especially

11:04

those working in full service restaurants

11:06

with more face to face interactions with customers.

11:09

But the global pandemic hasn't been the only

11:11

catalyst of change in our tipping practices. Today,

11:14

technology may be the largest driver

11:17

for tipping. In March of twenty fourteen,

11:20

NPR reported that in some businesses,

11:22

employees saw a fifty percent increase

11:24

in tips with the introduction of new swivel

11:27

screened payment processing systems like

11:29

Toast, Clover or Square.

11:32

These new tools also beg the question

11:34

how much of that tip actually gets to the person

11:37

on the other side of the counter.

11:41

Now we have like the rise of these tip screens

11:43

and the dreaded screen turn and

11:45

Square owns a lot of them, and

11:47

Square takes a cut of the

11:50

whole transaction. Really,

11:52

yes, tip included, So if

11:54

you tip more, their cut is

11:57

bigger, and then the restaurant will choose

11:59

to you either honor the whole tip

12:02

or whatever.

12:03

Wow, Okay, that is very

12:05

interesting.

12:06

Yeah, so they have

12:09

an incentive to have higher tipping

12:12

numbers. And then I think for employers,

12:15

like they want to keep their workers happy, they need to keep

12:17

their workers, and it's just easier

12:19

for them to not deal with raising prices

12:23

and pay their workers maybe less

12:25

than a living wage and just

12:27

be like, well, you can make it up with the tip.

12:29

And then there you are in this awkward situation,

12:32

just trying to get a coffee, and all of a sudden,

12:34

you're like, nine dollars feels like a lot,

12:36

but you're looking at this person who's looking at

12:38

you, and you're like, I

12:40

guess twenty five percent is

12:42

good, yeah, and you know, and then it raises

12:45

all these questions and people get very emotional.

12:48

During the pandemic, I think a

12:50

lot of people wanted to tip more. They wanted to tip

12:52

workers more. Is just like a gesture.

12:54

We were all they were essential workers, right, yeah.

12:56

We were trying to help each other out. Now

12:58

things are a little different, but tipping

13:00

has just increased. And also we started

13:02

tipping people we didn't use to tip before. During the pandemic,

13:05

right like, there was a tip jar and my supermarket,

13:07

and the tip jar stayed and now

13:10

we're all kind of we don't want to be that person who's

13:12

like, I'm not leaving a tip.

13:14

Yeah, you bring up a really good point of like what

13:16

is the reason for tipping, Like are we tipping

13:19

on skill? Are we tipping on

13:21

general treatment and personality?

13:23

Ostensibly we're tipping because

13:26

we are acknowledging exceptional

13:29

service or good service as

13:31

like a thanks, you did extra work,

13:33

here's extra money. But functionally

13:37

that is not how the tips are being used

13:39

in a lot of cases, and this is where it gets

13:41

even more complicated state by state and everything.

13:44

But in a lot of cases like that

13:47

money is getting people up

13:49

to minimum wage. So in that case, it's

13:51

not really acknowledging exceptional

13:53

service as much as it is like, here

13:56

is my contribution towards you making

13:58

a living wage, and that I

14:01

think we recognize both things are going on,

14:03

and you sort of feel resentful. It

14:05

feels like a bait and switch. It's like this price was presented

14:08

to me. It's like, Okay, this coffee is supposed to cost five

14:10

dollars, but really the coffee

14:12

doesn't cost five dollars. Really the coffee costs

14:14

eight dollars, and then I can

14:16

choose to pay five dollars for it, and I will

14:18

be taking money away

14:21

from this person who is looking at

14:23

me, who made my coffee, and

14:25

like, just tell me it's eight dollars. I don't know.

14:28

It puts us off. I think this is why people get so emotional

14:30

about tipping.

14:36

Not only do people get emotional about tipping,

14:38

but there also doesn't seem to be one

14:40

school of thought on how to approach tipping.

14:43

According to data from the Pew Research

14:45

Center, twenty one percent of Americans

14:48

say that tipping is more of a choice,

14:50

while twenty nine percent say it's an obligation

14:53

and forty nine percent say it.

14:55

Depends on the situation.

14:57

Many of us know that tipping is a way

14:59

to help work in the service industry make

15:01

a living wage, but many consumers

15:03

feel like the burdens shouldn't fall on them,

15:06

and more than seventy two percent of Americans

15:08

are opposed to businesses including

15:10

automatic service charges or gratuity

15:13

onto their bill.

15:16

People always looking for who to blame, so some people

15:18

are like, oh, workers are so entitled, they don't want

15:20

to do anything. They expect these huge tips. That's

15:23

not true. In a lot of cases, workers

15:25

are not making anywhere close to enough

15:27

to live right or people is like, it's

15:30

the business owners. They're underpaying, they're workers,

15:32

they're exploiting people, and customers

15:35

are expected to make up the difference. Well, that's

15:37

true, but they

15:40

are trying to get people to buy their stuff, and

15:42

if they price in higher wages,

15:44

people aren't going to buy their stuff. So

15:47

then it's like, well, it's the customer's faul because they don't

15:49

want to pay workers. But we've

15:52

all seen prices rise faster than our wages,

15:55

and our buying power

15:57

has diminished. Our credit card debt has

15:59

gone through the room poof our savings has liked.

16:01

What savings resolved? Savings?

16:03

What's that?

16:04

I don't it's so true. So we

16:06

are all struggling

16:09

and basically passing this football

16:11

of higher prices around and

16:13

it converges on tips

16:16

and like this weird cultural awkwardness

16:19

that is the American

16:21

tipping situation.

16:23

And I want to drill down a little bit onto something that

16:25

you'd brought up earlier, which is like this concept

16:27

of a living wage, the concept

16:29

of a minimum wage and getting

16:31

people up to if not minimum,

16:34

then a living wage. This is something that I knew

16:36

about for a long time, but I had no idea

16:38

was actually legal. So, like

16:40

minimum wage across the country is seven to twenty

16:42

five, but I know some people who make two dollars

16:45

an hour because they were getting tipped

16:47

on top of it. And you know, my first

16:49

question for a long time was like how is that even legal? But

16:51

it turns out is it is legal because

16:53

of a thing called a sub minimum

16:56

wage. Can you talk to us about what

16:58

a sub minimum wage is?

17:00

So Sylvia Aligretto is an economist. She

17:02

also worked as a tipped worker as a waitress

17:04

and a bartender for years, so

17:07

she's very familiar

17:09

with This is actually what inspired her work on minimum

17:11

wage. So, the federal minimum

17:14

wage is seven dollars and twenty five cents an hour. States

17:17

will often have higher minimum wages,

17:19

like Washington State their minimum wage is sixteen

17:21

dollars an hour. There's also a federal

17:24

subminimum wage, which has not changed

17:26

since like nineteen ninety three

17:29

or something. What I know, it's two

17:31

dollars and thirteen cents an hour. Oh my

17:33

god, you can't pay any work or

17:35

this. They have to be in a certain industries,

17:37

but the rules around it are very vague. So like a

17:39

lot of people like if you work at a car wash or

17:41

your massage therapist, or

17:44

work as a bartender or a server,

17:47

you are eligible to get a subminimum

17:49

wage. Now, a lot of states do not allow

17:51

that, like Washington State with its sixteen dollars minimum

17:53

wage does not allow for subminimum wages,

17:55

but a lot of states do. And

17:58

so depending on where you live, the

18:00

pay and tipping situation is

18:03

just really different. For

18:05

the workers who are serving

18:07

you your lunch or coffee

18:09

two dollars and thirteen cents. It's

18:12

mind blowing. It's like what someone would make

18:14

in the thirties.

18:16

And going back to this, it just feels illegal

18:18

to me, Like, I just cannot believe that something like

18:20

that is legal.

18:21

Well, here's what is supposed to

18:23

happen. So, technically speaking,

18:26

you can pay someone a sub minimum wage,

18:28

but if their tips do not get them up

18:30

to minimum wage, the employer's

18:33

supposed to make up the difference.

18:34

Oh interesting, here's

18:37

the catch.

18:37

So what Sylvia ali Gretto told me, and

18:39

what she found in her research was that

18:42

a lot of times like this just doesn't happen

18:44

in practice. Because she

18:46

used this example and it sort of rang

18:49

very true for me. She's like, you know, let's say it's

18:51

someone working a diner shift in the middle of the night.

18:54

This woman is desperately trying to get off of overnights,

18:56

but she's trying to get in good with her boss. Her

18:58

tips fall short. She's

19:00

supposed to then go to her boss and say

19:02

like, hey, I did not

19:05

make enough money. You need to supplement my income.

19:08

But if she's trying to get

19:10

in good with the boss, or feels like that's going to be badly

19:12

received, or is worried about losing her job,

19:14

she may not do that. And Sylvia Alagreta was

19:17

like, I had a bunch of service jobs. No

19:19

employer ever once asked

19:21

me to report my income to

19:23

be like did you actually get up to minimum wage?

19:26

And probably doesn't happen a

19:28

lot.

19:29

Well, and there's probably no way for the government,

19:32

local or federal to penalize

19:35

the employer if that was the case. You know that

19:37

they needed to because the tips

19:39

aren't always reported accurately,

19:42

either right.

19:43

They're in cash or like, you know, the employer

19:45

can be like listen, we didn't know. Like

19:47

it gets really fuzzy, and I

19:50

mean, I think Clinton tried really

19:52

hard to raise the sub minimum wage, but apparently

19:55

the Restaurant Association was like

19:58

really fought for this and was like, you

20:00

know, jobs will be lost if this happens.

20:02

This is always the argument around minimum wage,

20:04

and I don't think it's a completely false

20:07

either. Like I don't want to villainize small business

20:09

owners because I also think that they're dealing

20:11

with a lot, but you

20:13

end up with people making two dollars and thirteen

20:15

cents an hour, and like customers

20:18

don't.

20:18

Know no, Yeah, And this

20:20

is the thing that always makes me like realize that, like, man,

20:23

I have to tip, Like I don't really even care

20:25

if like the service isn't that bad. It's just like people

20:27

are making two dollars

20:29

a goddamn hour, yes, Like, and

20:32

I don't think anyone knows this really, Like I worked

20:34

in the industry and I didn't even really understand

20:37

the concept of the subminimum wage. So it's really

20:39

important for people to know this.

20:41

Well.

20:41

It's so hard to know because first of all,

20:43

like every state, some states have different

20:45

sub minimum wages, so if

20:47

you happen to travel to a different state, you've

20:50

got to look it up. Economic Policy

20:52

Institute has a good wage tracker that is free,

20:55

but it's so confusing, and you don't know what

20:57

a particular business is doing either, Like

20:59

even if if you know the laws of the state, you don't know what a business

21:01

is doing. And like some employees are sometimes

21:03

counted a sub minimum wage. That would surprise

21:06

you. It's so confusing.

21:09

If you're a customer, it's really hard, Like you just

21:11

do your best. You know, it's

21:13

complicated. Tipping, It's complicated.

21:16

Tipping It's complicated. That is the title

21:18

of this episode, Tipping It's complicated.

21:20

We are correct to be uncomfortable

21:22

and upset about tipping. That is what I

21:24

would tell everyone.

21:27

I talked to a barista for a tipping

21:29

story I did for NPR, and he worked

21:31

in Philly. He's so wonderful.

21:33

He was in his thirties and he was like, you know, I

21:36

love this job. I love making espresso,

21:38

Like this is my career. This is

21:40

my job. And he's like, people look at my job like,

21:42

oh, it's okay if you're underpaid, because

21:46

this is a job for like young people or people who

21:48

are transitioning, or it's a side hustle. This

21:50

is not someone's whole

21:52

job. But he's like, it is my whole

21:55

job. And he said, now this is

21:57

crushing. I have never in

22:00

this since I talked with him. He had to do the screen

22:02

turn and he's like, it's really awkward. People say all kinds

22:04

of weird things like and

22:06

he's like, I'm a human being, Like it's really hard

22:09

when someone's like, well I'm not tipping, or why is

22:11

the tip so high? Or whatever? And I said, well, can

22:13

you tell if somebody doesn't tip? Can you tell

22:15

what buttons people push? Essentially? Yeah, because

22:18

there's always that weird thing where the person like turns the

22:20

screen and kind of looks away. And

22:22

I said, well, do you feel bad if someone doesn't

22:24

tip or just just kind of roll off your back. He's like, no, I

22:27

feel bad because

22:29

he's like it's like this person is saying like I don't

22:31

care if you make a living wage or

22:33

not.

22:33

That's so hard.

22:35

Yeah, And I think that's my other problem

22:38

with the whole situation too, because it's like they

22:40

deserve to have a living wage. Like if you're working

22:42

a job and you're working a job eight hours a day,

22:45

like what gives here with you

22:47

know, people feeling like they deserve less

22:49

than a living wage. It just blows my mind.

22:51

Yeah, yes, no, that's really that's

22:54

so true. But I do also have a

22:56

lot of sympathy for customers because like, we are

22:58

getting asked to tip a lot.

23:01

Oh absolutely, it's tip plac.

23:03

That's the new term, I mean, and it's kind of

23:05

it's true, right, And there's some data

23:07

from bank greet that people were starting to tip less

23:10

because it's just like at a certain point, you

23:12

can only afford so much. So like from an

23:14

economist's perspective, it's like,

23:16

well that's not great either. It's like, okay, well I'm just going

23:18

to get a coffee once a week instead of five days a week

23:21

or whatever.

23:21

It is.

23:21

Well, that's really bad for the coffee and the

23:23

worker and everybody too. So

23:26

I think we're all kind of in a

23:28

tough situation together, and it's messy.

23:32

Why is it so important that we continue to tip

23:34

our uber eats, grub hubs, seamless

23:36

delivery people, and our Uber and Lyft drivers.

23:39

Right, A very tiny percentage

23:41

of people tip their Uber and Lyft drivers.

23:43

Right.

23:43

And I was talking with Schubronchu Sing about this.

23:45

He's a professor of hotel management and

23:48

this writing is so true. He was like, by the time the app

23:50

asked us for a tip, our interaction

23:52

with them is done. It's not a person standing

23:54

in front of a screen. And I

23:56

think because we do feel so sort of overtaxed

23:59

and overtipped and it's like do you want to leave five

24:01

dollars? It's like, I don't know. That ride was more

24:03

expensive already than I thought it was going to be. But

24:06

those workers are often earning

24:08

like not much. And this is the same

24:10

with hotels too. I mean there's a big socialization

24:13

cultural issue with this too. Right, we feel

24:15

that pressure right with the screen turn

24:18

or even at a restaurant when someone leaves

24:20

a tab. It's like the personal interaction having

24:22

to kind of face the person who

24:26

is being affected by your tipping decision.

24:28

I think affects our tipping decisions

24:30

a lot. And if you know you're never going to see the person

24:33

again, but it doesn't mean that

24:35

that person isn't the person who needs

24:37

your tip. More so, I think it's

24:39

worth thinking about. I do not want to

24:41

pile guilt on anybody

24:43

or anything, but I just think an awareness

24:46

of how little a lot of people

24:48

who clean hotels earn, how little

24:50

a lot of uber and lip drivers earn, is

24:53

important to just keep in mind and like to

24:55

just try to give what you can, or to have

24:57

a strategy in place, even if it's not perfect,

25:01

just to think about it instead of just like responding

25:03

to the pressures of the moment, which I am one hundred

25:05

percent guilty of.

25:06

I think it's a very adult thing to feel a little guilt

25:09

every now and then and to have it move

25:11

our actions in a better way.

25:13

I think that's true. Actually, maybe the adulting

25:16

lesson here is that, like you

25:18

learn how to evolve your relationship with guilt.

25:22

That's a big adulting topic. I think we're here

25:25

for it.

25:25

Though.

25:25

Well, it's interesting because I think this is the first episode

25:28

where it's really more like we just need to

25:30

understand more about tipping, because again, I

25:32

think that people could maybe come into this going like, God, I

25:34

just hate tipping. I'm hoping they're gonna come here tell me

25:36

I don't need to do it. And it's interesting

25:39

that like, the more we know about it, that we realize

25:41

how important it is and how

25:43

people are unfair. You know, it's

25:45

a raw deal for everyone. It feels

25:47

like a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort

25:50

of an episode to me, but also like it

25:52

is important to know all this stuff Yeah, it's funny because

25:54

we're I guess I'm walking away with knowing more

25:57

but not really sure about like what

25:59

the act item is for people

26:01

here.

26:02

I feel like that's the most adult thing of all, walking

26:06

away with the more nuanced

26:08

understanding of the problem and no solution.

26:11

Yeah.

26:11

I mean, I think what we're really dealing

26:13

with here is inflation, and

26:16

I know I keep talking about that. But like food

26:18

delivery, I think is such a great example because

26:20

the food delivery situation is

26:23

so extreme. It's like you

26:26

order a burrito that costs

26:29

nine dollars and somehow it's

26:31

forty dollars. Yeah, after all, a sudden

26:33

done, and that is so many fees get

26:35

piled on there, like fees for

26:37

everything, and so the Biden administration

26:39

has done a big push on this, pushing

26:42

back against fees, like hotels are

26:44

really guilty of this, like resort fees, airlines,

26:47

ticket change fees. Some of the fees

26:49

are huge. But like, I think food

26:51

delivery is one that we can all relate to where you're like, what

26:54

but at this point you're like, I want the burrito.

26:56

I guess I'll pay forty dollars for it.

26:59

And then on the top of that would you like to tip

27:01

your driver? You know, the one thing

27:03

I can recommend is like to

27:05

exclude the fees when you tip. The

27:07

suggested tip will include all those fees,

27:10

and you shouldn't be tipping on top of fees

27:12

and taxes. But there's a term economists

27:14

used for all this stuff together, like

27:17

higher tips and fees. It's called stealth

27:19

inflation. And there's a sort of

27:22

a school of thought amongst some economists that inflation is

27:24

actually higher than we think

27:26

it is because of stuff like this. Fees

27:29

sometimes do get factored into

27:32

the inflation index that the government

27:35

looks at, but tips don't. So

27:37

all together, like the prices of things maybe

27:40

have risen more than even has

27:42

been acknowledged. And I think

27:45

that's also why it's so upsetting, because we

27:47

are starting to realize that, like maybe

27:49

there's a big lifestyle adjustment that has to happen.

27:52

It's like this dirty secret in our economy,

27:54

Like businesses don't want to acknowledge it. We don't

27:56

want to acknowledge it. So we're like charging tons

27:58

of things on our credit cards, paying

28:01

what looks like a pretty reasonable price that ends up

28:03

being like much higher than we thought. So

28:05

I don't know. I think that's a lot of what's

28:07

happening. And I think that's a lot of like why we're upset

28:10

is we sort of feel like something's

28:12

being hidden from us, which

28:15

I think it is, and the most

28:17

vulnerable people in our economy

28:20

are the ones often bearing the brunt of

28:22

this. We're sort of at the mercy of people's

28:25

tips and goodwill and budgets.

28:28

Frankly, I think it's interesting that you brought

28:30

up tipping on top of tax and I

28:32

had never thought about this until I was at

28:34

a restaurant with my brother and he's always

28:36

been better at math and I and he's like, you're tipping on

28:38

top of the tax And I was like what

28:40

And he was like, so, basically, what that means is you're

28:42

including the tax as a portion of the total

28:44

tip you're paying, which is basically

28:47

like thanking a fee with a tip. And

28:49

I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I've never really

28:51

thought about it that way. But when you talk about all

28:53

the services and fee attacking on top of it, you're also

28:56

paying a percentage of those too. So is

28:59

this something that you you know? Because Molly and I

29:01

were debating about this beforehand.

29:03

Like because I am always just like stop

29:05

nickel and diming the people. As we've just discussed,

29:07

who're earning two thirteen an hour.

29:10

Yeah, so is there a hard and fast yeat guidance

29:12

there?

29:13

I mean, I don't think there's hard and fast guidance. I think

29:15

Molly has an excellent point. What

29:17

I would say to counter that a

29:19

little bit is if you

29:21

were in a position where you were really trying to figure out what you

29:23

can afford, and you want to be a good person and

29:25

a good customer, but your budget is really limited,

29:28

you can just take the core amount,

29:31

add the tip onto that, and that is a

29:33

decent tip, Like you do not have to feel bad

29:35

about that tip. So you can sort of like

29:38

make some rules for yourself where you're

29:40

like, Okay, well I'd love to leave more,

29:42

and maybe at some point in the future I can,

29:44

but for now I will leave this. It's

29:46

like, okay, what's the minimum tip that I leave? Like,

29:49

Yeah, let's say the service is terrible,

29:51

let's say the order's wrong, everything's

29:54

bad. The tip now becomes

29:56

just a function of you sort of acknowledging

29:58

and honoring this person's

30:01

like wage situation, and

30:04

so like, what's the amount that you want

30:06

to leave in that situation. And then

30:08

if the service is amazing and you love

30:11

the person and they've crafted you the most beautiful

30:14

whatever latte art you ever seen, or you just think

30:16

they're wonderful and you want to acknowledge that. I think there's

30:18

tipping more is never going to be a bad thing. But

30:21

I would also recommend one

30:23

thing you can do, especially too if you're pinch just

30:25

tipping in cash is always better.

30:28

Oh, which, like I know.

30:29

A lot of us don't carry that much cash around now,

30:32

but if you want to sort of a fail safe

30:34

way to like make sure you're getting

30:36

money into the right hands, cash

30:38

is the best.

30:39

Yeah.

30:40

But also tipping in cash feels weird, and

30:43

then I feel like if I do hit the like no tip,

30:45

then I feel like I want to be like, but I tipped

30:47

in cash. Did you you saw that

30:50

right?

30:50

Right?

30:51

Yes?

30:51

I always feel like I need to like, yes, I need to

30:53

like add that footnote of like it's

30:55

in cash.

30:56

It's like tipping theater, right, You're like

30:59

waiting until they're looking so then you can pretend

31:01

like you're sneaking money into the tip jar.

31:04

But you're like, I just want you to know I'm

31:06

tipping you, yeah, or.

31:08

Write down like zero and then put like cash

31:10

in the the line on the on the receipt.

31:13

Oh that's smart.

31:14

But the fact that we even have to write cash

31:17

is because it's part of the tipping theater. We're like, we don't

31:19

want you to.

31:20

I'm writing zero because

31:22

I like you guys did at there. I'm

31:24

like this cash there too.

31:25

Yeah. Yes, I don't know what people

31:28

in other countries do with the enormous chunk

31:30

of our brains that we were spending like doing all these

31:32

calculations and dealing with all

31:34

this like emotional like navigating

31:37

this like emotional terrain, Like it's a terrible

31:39

situation. Tipping is terrible.

31:41

Hopefully they're putting it towards solving the climate crisis.

31:44

That's what I absolutely, Yes, somewhere

31:46

on Square there is a button for saving the

31:48

planet.

31:52

Coming up on grown up stuff How to Adults.

31:55

I had a plumber come and he

31:58

was like, oh, can you pay me on Square? And

32:00

suddenly I was like, am I supposed to tip my plumber?

32:04

That is where things get really tricky.

32:07

Will be right back after a quick break

32:13

and we're back with more grown

32:15

up stuff How to Adults?

32:19

So now we want to get down to like what

32:22

is like common sense practice around

32:24

tipping. So what really are the

32:26

services and or goods that we really

32:28

should be tipping for every single time?

32:31

I would say, first of all, look

32:33

up where you are and look up what the tipping

32:36

rules are in your area. I think

32:39

that is a big deal. Then

32:41

I would say, like anyone who's potentially

32:43

earning a sub minimum wage, that

32:45

is your absolute top priority, because

32:47

they're making potentially two dollars and thirteen

32:49

cents an hour. Other than that, I

32:52

mean seven twenty five, which is the federal minimum

32:55

wage. Like, that's also not a

32:57

ton. If you are in a

32:59

business that is encouraging

33:01

you to tip, or where the tip

33:04

is sort of part of the transaction, often

33:07

that is a signal that that person is

33:10

not really making a minimum wage,

33:12

that they are potentially counting on your tip

33:14

to get up to a living wage. So

33:17

it's not just like, oh, there's a tip jar at

33:19

the dry cleaner. It's like the

33:21

tipping is a big part of

33:23

the transaction here. I

33:26

think that's a tell. After

33:28

that, I would say,

33:30

I know it's a lot, and hotels are a lot,

33:32

but I would say, like leaving a tip in a hotel or

33:35

like uber drivers often things

33:37

like that, but you don't have to tip twenty percent

33:39

in every case, But just I think leaving

33:42

something is important, and if you're

33:44

really really on a budget, I think even just leaving

33:47

what you can is good. And I

33:49

would say, like the key thing is knowing where you are and

33:51

what the rules are where you are, and

33:53

that is a really good baseline. And

33:57

yeah, I would say, just like be kind to yourself.

34:00

This is a mess, Like it's a mess. That's

34:02

my major takeaways, Like this is chaos.

34:05

In some of the research that we did, I came across this idea

34:08

of like are we now tipping at places where

34:10

we really shouldn't be?

34:12

Oh yeah yeah. I got some very funny

34:15

comments where people were like I had a plumber

34:17

come and he was like, oh, can you pay

34:19

me on square? And suddenly he was

34:21

like I was like, am I supposed to tip my plumber? That

34:25

is where things get really tricky. And

34:28

I think the best

34:30

advice I got was from Schubronchu Sing and

34:32

what he said was winn doubt I tipped ten

34:34

percent okay, And I was like, okay,

34:36

Yeah, it's one of those things where like

34:38

it's not good, Like, no one's

34:40

happy in that situation, but at least, like

34:43

the person who you tipped ten percent is not happy.

34:45

You were not happy. No one's happy. But

34:47

I think it's like it's sort of like a decent feel.

34:49

I felt it was like a reasonable and decent way

34:52

to deal with a hard situation.

34:53

Maybe this is what we're learning is if we can get to a place

34:56

where no one is happy, then maybe that's exactly

34:58

where we should be.

35:00

You are a real adult that everybody's happy.

35:02

No, it's happy, everyone's happy.

35:05

Yes, exactly. Actually I talked

35:07

to a man who worked in the music industry.

35:09

He would like negotiate deals with like musicians

35:11

and labels, and that's what he said.

35:14

I was like, oh, giviny negotiating tips And he said,

35:16

well, it's usually the sign of a good

35:18

new negotiation if no one's happy, And

35:21

I was like, okay. He's like, if someone's like thrilled,

35:24

usually that means that somebody got screwed.

35:27

And if nobody's thrilled, that's usually a sign

35:29

of like, then everybody got a little screwed.

35:31

And maybe that's the best we can hope for in this world.

35:34

That's true that's

35:37

something. Pe

35:40

Research Center said that fifty seven percent

35:42

of Americans say they tiped fifteen

35:44

percent or less at a sit down restaurant.

35:47

As we kind of mentioned earlier, I always

35:49

do twenty on top of all the taxes

35:51

fees. Yeah, is this above

35:53

and beyond? Like what is again? Is this a regional

35:56

thing we talked a little bit before, like where some people

35:58

are like, or is twenty the new fifth? And

36:00

we should all be at a sit down restaurant

36:02

scenario, we should all be assuming twenty percent,

36:05

whether that's if you choose to do it on top of the fees

36:07

or if you decided to do it, you know, before

36:09

all the taxes and fees.

36:11

I would say the very minimum

36:14

should be fifteen percent. I mean, I think

36:16

just based on the world we live in now,

36:19

I think if twenty still is a good tip, and then

36:21

above that is like a great tip and a

36:23

sit down restaurant, like I really

36:25

would say, I mean, if the person throws

36:28

water in your face, tip

36:31

ten percent.

36:32

And this also the thing brings

36:34

up something that you had mentioned in your NPR

36:36

article that like the people should feel empowered

36:39

to hit custom tip and to leave fifteen or

36:41

twenty if that's what they want to do.

36:43

Yes, this was something that I sort of started

36:46

doing. It was like, okay, you make a rule

36:48

for yourself, and it was like, I will tip twenty

36:50

percent, So I think normalize

36:52

custom tip.

36:53

I love that.

36:54

Yeah, so I liked that suggestion too because

36:56

it's sort of I feel like part of what

36:58

is upsetting as a customer

37:01

is you sort of feel like all this pressure.

37:04

It's like one of those things where it's like all this stuff happens

37:06

and then you're like outside of the coffee

37:08

shop with your coffee and you're like, wait, how much did I just pay?

37:10

And you sort of feel like.

37:11

It feels like they're putting this emotional social

37:14

pressure on you in the moment, and

37:16

by putting twenty five is the minimum they're

37:18

getting away with something, Whereas

37:20

like you should reclaim that moment and that

37:22

awkwardness probably no going into the transaction

37:25

that you might be faced with that and go like, hey, like I've

37:27

decided for myself that I'm going to tip twenty

37:29

percent, you know, or I've decided for myself I'm gonna tip fifty

37:31

percent, so I'm not going to feel bad in

37:33

this social moment to hit custom

37:35

tip and leave what I'm comfortable

37:38

with.

37:38

I like that idea, like reclaiming the awkwardness

37:40

of that moment, because I do feel like there's this time pressure,

37:43

there's this emotional pressure. You're

37:45

just wantaking coffee, and

37:47

it's like it's a lot coming

37:49

at you all at once,

37:51

and you haven't had coffee yet.

37:53

Do you know what I mean?

37:53

Like it's just right coming at you.

37:55

That's the real crime here, and

37:57

you haven't had your caffeine yet.

38:00

All this stuff is converging on the screen.

38:02

Turn It's like amazing, we're all still upright

38:04

and talking.

38:05

You know, Yeah, this

38:07

is so true. I want to talk about tipping

38:10

that we experience kind of in a different context,

38:12

which is around the holidays. How

38:14

much should we be tipping people who we interact

38:16

with every day that we don't

38:19

tip every day.

38:20

It depends, I think, on where you live. Like here in New York,

38:23

it's traditional, like if you live in a building

38:25

with the doorman, you're supposed to tip the doorman, right,

38:28

And from what I've heard, it's

38:30

like around ten percent of your rent or something

38:32

like that of your monthly rent, yeah

38:35

yeah, or like tip your super if

38:37

your super's the one you interact with. Like I live

38:39

at Ability. It doesn't have a doorman, but I have a super. So

38:42

that idea is like you tip your super. And

38:44

then like you're postal worker is someone you can

38:46

think about tipping too at that time

38:49

because there obviously that's like a big time of year, they're

38:51

working really hard. So those

38:53

are the two that come to mind.

38:55

We're not talking about people who are

38:59

counting on your tip to get

39:01

them to minimum wage. I think that's like an important

39:03

thing to remember, like that tip is really

39:05

a tip. It's like really an acknowledgment

39:07

of a relationship and service

39:10

to me, that feels like so I would

39:12

say that sounds great. I mean I would say, like, find

39:15

what feels appropriate to you, sort

39:17

of figure out what the custom is, figure

39:19

out like what the range within

39:22

the custom is, and find

39:24

like the point within that range where you

39:26

feel comfortable. And also it's like depends

39:29

on what you can afford. And I mean, I think

39:31

you just try to do what you can.

39:33

But Molly, you will never be a monster for

39:36

making someone baked goods and giving

39:39

them a personal note during the holiday.

39:40

But maybe it's just like no, just give them more

39:43

cash, get your shit together, give them more

39:45

cash.

39:45

I think, I think anyone would appreciate that.

39:48

And I've had your baked goods and they're delicious.

39:50

Oh, thank you.

39:51

This is Brooklyn. You're supposed

39:53

to be able to pay for things with baked goods. Yes,

39:56

we still have a little soul in this country.

39:58

I like to think it's not all about money.

40:01

Thank you, Stacy.

40:01

That makes you feel better.

40:02

It's just an acknowledgement of value. And you could

40:05

do that in a number of ways.

40:06

Yeah.

40:06

I like that. You're right.

40:08

You're right now. I don't plan on like just

40:10

being like here, Burisa, here's for my

40:12

coffee today.

40:13

Here's one scone.

40:14

I begged him all every day.

40:16

You give me a scone, I would give

40:19

you.

40:21

I will give you a scone. Yeah.

40:24

Well, Stacy, you are now in a new position.

40:26

Where can they find what the next thing

40:28

that you're working on?

40:30

So I'm at Bloomberg now. I'm working as an editor

40:32

there, but I am also filing stories from Marketplace

40:34

a lot, so marketplace dot org is probably the best

40:37

place right now. It's

40:39

fine.

40:39

My stuff amazing. I

40:42

will constantly be reading and listening to

40:44

all of it, So, all of your work, So thank.

40:46

You so much, Thank you and I will

40:48

be thinking about your scones.

40:50

Thank you, thank you.

40:52

Listen player cards, right, Stacey, I might mail yourself

40:54

thinking about and scones.

40:57

Sounds like a good deal.

41:00

Yeah, I do my best. I do my best,

41:05

all right, Thanks you.

41:06

Guys, Stacy.

41:10

You've got some tea scones coming your way. To show

41:12

my appreciation for this illuminating conversation

41:15

about tipping. This really has been a grown

41:17

up stuff first, because there's not

41:19

necessarily a clear path forward on

41:21

tipping, but I've learned so

41:23

much about how and why it started

41:26

and a deeper understanding of what it means.

41:28

Here's what else I'm taking away from our conversation

41:31

with Stacy Vanocksmith on tipping. The

41:33

practice of tipping in the United States began

41:36

shortly after the Civil War. During

41:38

reconstruction. People who had formerly been

41:40

enslaved had limited job options,

41:43

so many took on roles in the food and service

41:45

industry and agreed to work for tips

41:47

without a wage. Tipping

41:49

is a very complicated ecosystem,

41:52

and some restauranteurs have tried

41:54

to get rid of tipping and increased the base

41:56

pay for all of their staff, but

41:59

then they faced the chair lenge of employees going

42:01

elsewhere to try to make even more money in

42:03

a role where the pay is far less, but

42:05

there is an opportunity to make a lot more with

42:07

tips. Those newer digital

42:10

tools restaurants are now using to process

42:12

payments like square or toasts. You

42:14

know they're the tablet screens that turn around

42:16

to face you and ask you how much you want to tip.

42:19

Well, those companies are taking

42:21

a percentage of every transaction

42:24

total, including the tip. So

42:26

while these have made tipping very

42:28

easy for consumers, and in some

42:30

cases have even increased the average

42:33

amount that we tip, cash is still

42:35

best when it comes to tipping service workers.

42:37

The federal minimum wage rate is seven

42:40

twenty five. However, if you are

42:42

a tipped employee, then your

42:44

employer is allowed to pay you a subminimum

42:47

wage of two dollars and thirteen cents.

42:50

If the tipped employee doesn't make enough

42:52

in tips and that sub minimum wage

42:54

to equal the federal minimum

42:56

wage, then the employer has to make

42:58

up the difference. That being said, is

43:01

unclear how often employees are reporting

43:03

this and receiving the subsidization,

43:06

Nor do we know if employers are frequently

43:08

checking in with their workers to make sure they did make

43:10

enough around the holidays, you should

43:12

probably think about tipping your super or

43:15

building staff. But if that's a

43:17

lot for you, you can always do a little

43:19

less and share things like baked goods

43:21

and a personalized note to acknowledge

43:23

the relationship and show your gratitude

43:25

for them. If you're really struggling

43:28

to figure out whether or not you should be, tipping,

43:30

ten percent is a good baseline to start,

43:33

and as Stacy says, the sign of

43:35

a good negotiation is if everyone

43:38

leaves a little unhappy. Don't

43:40

be afraid to custom tip. There

43:43

are a lot of fees and taxes

43:45

added to bills today, especially

43:47

food delivery bills. It

43:49

is completely acceptable to tip on the

43:51

subtotal before all of those

43:53

additional charges. And finally,

43:56

sometimes being an adult is just informing

43:58

yourself about a topic, developing

44:01

a more nuanced understanding, and

44:03

feeling even more confused and conflicted on

44:05

the right approach. Matt,

44:08

I never thought i'd say this, but I

44:12

now think I would potentially consider tipping

44:15

on the subtotal rather than the total. I

44:17

also feel relieved to hear that Stacy approves of my holiday

44:20

tipping practices. But Matt, what stuck

44:22

with you from this episode?

44:24

I totally agree with you, and actually

44:27

I will tip on the subtotal. But

44:29

what I will do is carry cash

44:31

with me because the thing with me is, like you

44:33

know, hearing about all this stuff about sub minimum wages

44:35

and how hard people are working in inflation and people

44:37

are getting squeeze, I want to make sure

44:39

that my tip is going directly to the

44:42

person who is providing the excellent

44:44

service. So cash is

44:46

going to be flowing back into my pocket very shortly,

44:48

and I will make sure that I am tipping at least

44:50

twenty percent in all of the scenarios we covered,

44:53

but giving that cash directly to the person that's

44:55

helping me.

44:55

Yeah, I agree, because that sub minimum wage

44:58

truly.

44:58

Blew my mind, mind blowing.

45:00

Tell the good people out there listening,

45:02

what is next on grown up Stuff How to Adult?

45:04

Next episode, we're digging into dog ownership

45:07

because it turns out having a dog is

45:09

a lot more like having a kid.

45:11

I wanted a dog for so long,

45:14

Matt, like a dog did really just call my own?

45:17

But I know that right now I don't

45:19

have a life that is conducive to.

45:21

Having a dog.

45:22

Don't yet despair, because we'll find out for sure

45:24

in two weeks on the next episode of Grown Up

45:26

Stuff, How to Adult Ed.

45:28

Remember you might not be graded in life, but

45:30

it never hurts to do your homework.

45:32

This is a production from Ruby Studio from

45:34

iHeartMedia. Our executive producers

45:36

are Molly.

45:37

Soshia and Matt still O. This episode

45:39

was engineered by Matt.

45:41

Still Ow and written by

45:43

Molly Soosha.

45:44

This episode was edited by

45:46

Sierra Spreen.

45:48

And special thanks to our teammates at

45:50

Ruby Studio, including Ethan Fixel,

45:52

Rachel Swan Krasnoff, Amber Smith, Deborah

45:55

Garrett, and Andy Kelly. Four