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Gun Talk TV is like Netflix for your

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or download the Gun Talk

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TV app to watch anywhere,

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anytime. So

0:25

you've made it through three hours of the regular

0:27

show on terrestrial radio and you wanted a little

0:29

bit more so that's why you found the Gun

0:32

Talk After Show podcast where we saved all the

0:34

best things that we can't say on regular radio.

0:36

Now here's Tom, Michelle and Jim for the Gun

0:38

Talk After Show. I

0:42

guess the after show, it is that time when

0:44

we do the after part of the, no

0:46

it goes, I get confused, it goes before

0:49

or after. It's hard to understand this thing.

0:51

Let me Google it. There you

0:53

go. We got Jim Kinsey, we got

0:55

Michelle Cleland and we have Chris Hodgson

0:57

on this side and Michelle, you and

0:59

Chris evidently know each other. We do.

1:02

You can only be in this trade for

1:04

30 plus years and not run into people

1:06

at events, right? So

1:10

Chris, how do you know Michelle? So I

1:14

went to the Sports Inc. trade

1:16

show usually

1:18

two times a year and

1:21

Cleland's Gun Shop was represented

1:23

by Michelle of course and

1:26

we had some very good conversations through

1:28

the years and her

1:31

family is a

1:34

great family. One

1:37

of the great families in this industry, shooters

1:39

and people involved in the industry, yes. And

1:42

her husband is one of the best muzzle loading

1:44

shooters ever that

1:46

I can remember and

1:49

her mom Teresa was,

1:52

her mother, is it your mother or

1:54

your mother-in-law? In law, mother-in-law. In law,

1:56

that's right, that's right. Teresa is really a

1:59

good friend. was just a genuinely

2:02

nice lady. It

2:04

was just a pleasure working with them all

2:06

these years through

2:09

Hodgson Powder and Cleveland's Gun Shop and

2:11

they're good customers. What a fun deal.

2:13

Yeah. There you go, Michelle. Small,

2:15

small world. It is

2:17

crazy stuff. You only had to

2:19

say it once, Michelle. Small, small world, world, world, world.

2:22

Was that a lot of fun? No, no.

2:24

Now I'm going to... Everyone's going to curse me.

2:27

It's a small world, actually. There's your

2:29

earworm for the day. There you go.

2:36

And I'll counter you as one of these. Oh,

2:39

thanks so much. It's the only weapon I have in

2:42

my arsenal, Tom. Yeah, but it works. There you go.

2:46

So we're doing this remote from the

2:48

Hodgson facility here in Kansas and I

2:50

have my remote box and clearly I

2:53

don't know how to use it because

2:55

I guess, just like you guys are hearing some

2:58

weird noise and stuff going back and forth. Just

3:00

a little echo. Echo, echo, echo. Yeah,

3:03

I bet. Thank you. Everybody had to do it.

3:07

Again, they're going to slap us. You

3:11

said, what did you call it? It's a slapback gym

3:13

and Michelle says, I got your slapback right here. I

3:17

got a button that says talkback, but don't you dare

3:19

talk back. Yeah, give me any back talk. I'm

3:22

going to talk back. See,

3:25

Chris, this is what happens on this thing. That's

3:29

why they call it the after. Yeah, we'd never

3:31

make it here. You

3:34

picked right up on that, didn't you? So you're looking to

3:36

pick us up as a sponsor? Yeah,

3:44

I'll get back to you on that. Oh, Lordy, you only have

3:46

to ask him once. I

3:52

played out there the rest of the time. There

3:54

you go. That's right. Hey, that's Ryan's gig. Well,

4:00

have my kid talk to his kid? How's that?

4:02

You know, it's like, we'll do lunch. Yeah. My

4:05

people talk to your people literally. So

4:07

it is, it is that, I mean,

4:10

it really is interesting because I think about your

4:12

family as well, Michelle, it's like this, this whole

4:14

family thing just goes on and on in

4:16

the shooting world. I mean, you

4:19

may not know Chris about Michelle's

4:21

son who is also a top

4:23

level shooter, AMU, AMU,

4:25

really. Yeah. Oh

4:28

yeah. Oh yeah. We're talking about the best of

4:30

the best. Really? Well, that's

4:32

good pedigree. Well, it is, isn't it?

4:36

Yeah. You can't overcome his upbringing. Despite

4:39

his try. No, no, no, no. He's

4:42

put a lot of time and effort into

4:44

his career and he has had a phenomenal

4:46

career. Yeah. None of

4:48

it's genetic. No, no, no, no. Yep.

4:51

Sure. Yeah. Right. To believe that. I

4:54

mean, there, there is a reason why you're going to,

4:57

yeah, you know, his father could shoot

4:59

and he can shoot and the daughter can shoot.

5:01

And you know, you look at Jerry Mitchell, look

5:03

and Lena Mitchell, look, and you're going, you know,

5:05

it's just not fair. You got

5:07

the genetic thing working for you. Holy

5:09

cow. You know, it is one of

5:11

those, you talked earlier with a

5:13

couple of different people that, um, you

5:15

get involved in this and in the

5:17

family part really takes prevalence and, and

5:19

it does just get handed down again

5:22

and again and again, because you have

5:24

a passion for it. You

5:26

really do. It becomes, yeah, okay. It's a business

5:28

industry and industry year and it's a company or

5:30

whatever, but you could work

5:32

in a lot of different companies and a lot of industries.

5:34

And there's just, like you say, Michelle, I mean,

5:37

you know, Chris for many years. And then when you

5:39

guys got together here, you didn't know he was going

5:41

to be here. It's like, Oh, hey,

5:44

it's like, oh, oh, time. Should've

5:46

heard him on break. I know. I

5:48

know. Right. Like, Hey, tell them, hi, I

5:51

never get a chance to do that anymore. It's

5:58

the fun stuff. Jim,

6:00

can I brag on you a little bit? You're

6:02

gonna have to make up something but sure. Yeah,

6:05

well I always do. Given

6:08

what we have to work with here, how

6:10

you did a benefit concert last night for

6:12

a lady. Yeah, we had five bands and

6:14

raffles and all that kind of good stuff.

6:17

A good buddy, musician. One

6:20

of our techs, when we do promotion or

6:22

production gigs, he helps us on that stuff

6:24

too. Christian Lamb, good guy. Decided

6:26

a month ago that he was done living. And

6:31

we lost him suddenly, no health issues,

6:33

nothing else, he was just gone. So

6:35

he wasn't really prepared financially and his

6:37

wife was in Dire Straits. So he

6:39

said, Dire Straits is a band. We'll

6:41

hire five other bands, not them. And

6:44

we'll put on a little shindig for her and the

6:46

kids. And boy, people

6:48

stepped up in the community, well,

6:51

Cleveland's Outdoor World, for example, with

6:54

different donations for raffles and stuff. And they gave

6:56

us some concealed carry classes and some

6:59

range time and all kinds of stuff. It

7:01

was cool. And a bunch of

7:03

other companies did too. We had one particular Mexican

7:06

restaurant donated all the food. Wow. Wow.

7:10

We had what, 300, I don't know, 350 people there. Wow.

7:14

It was a good crowd. He did well for her

7:16

and she's going to be a little, have that little

7:18

patch. She's going back to work now because he was

7:20

the breadwinner. So she's going

7:22

back to work now and everything may

7:25

turn out okay in the long run. That's

7:27

terrific. Well, well done. I

7:30

just wanted to brag on you because this is not the first

7:32

time you've done things like this. And I just, we're proud to

7:34

call you a friend. Well,

7:36

thank you, my friend. Okay. Last

7:38

time for you to leave. I'm out of here. I'm a

7:40

shindig takeover. I got my plug in. There

7:43

you go. There you go. All

7:45

right. Quick break here while

7:47

Jim exits the building and then we'll be

7:49

right back with more After Show. Lent's

8:12

allergening took

9:54

it out he put some BLC2 in there

9:57

and powder for those who don't know yep yep And

10:00

he went out and I went out

10:02

to the range with him one time and

10:04

he shot it a couple times and it

10:06

was like this fireball. You

10:09

know, and it just kind of rocked him back

10:12

and I just decided, well, I'm not going to

10:14

do that. I'm not going to hurt myself.

10:18

I won't watch you from afar. Yeah. Hence

10:21

the OMG part. Yeah.

10:23

Holy cow. I love that.

10:28

So Chris, quick question. How many times

10:30

do you have consumers call

10:33

your 1-800 number or telephone number

10:35

and ask for

10:37

information on reloading and then just

10:40

go ahead and say, well, what about using, you

10:43

name the powder, replacement powder that

10:45

you guys haven't recommended? What do

10:47

you do? Well, well, you know,

10:49

it's a funny thing is, is a lot

10:52

of, not a lot, but

10:54

quite a few consumers call in and

10:57

they, they're going beyond what

10:59

the data shows. They

11:01

want to go faster. And

11:05

of course it's, it's

11:07

out of our data, right? Out

11:10

of our data range, I should

11:12

say, above and beyond. And

11:14

they're just calling to confirm what

11:17

they're doing. But

11:19

they want your blessing. They want our blessing, but

11:22

we don't fall for that. And

11:24

for those who don't know, just to make

11:26

sure people understand, the reason that you have

11:29

these limits on these, the top loads on

11:31

all these is because there is

11:33

an established pressure limit for every

11:35

cartridge done by the industry

11:38

standard, the SAMI group. And

11:40

so if it's 50,000 or 60,000

11:42

PSI, whatever it is, and you've got ballistics

11:44

labs and you're testing and you've actually gone

11:46

above that in the lab and go, okay,

11:48

we've got to back off because this is

11:50

the level where we get that limit. You

11:54

can't tell somebody, look, yeah, it's okay to just pop

11:56

it up as much as you want to. If

11:59

the gun hadn't blown up, just go for it. That's right. You

12:01

can't change the laws of physics. Yes.

12:06

You mean even if I pull the trigger harder?

12:08

Yeah. And faster. You

12:10

need to say that with an accent,

12:12

though. I can't change the laws of

12:14

physics, Captain. I'm

12:18

giving her all she's got. The

12:23

correct answer is if you

12:25

want your seven millimeter bullet to go faster,

12:28

then get a cartridge that sends

12:30

the seven millimeter bullet faster. Get

12:32

a magnum. Get a weather magnum.

12:34

Get a room to magnum. Get a something. But

12:37

try to make your 308 a 300 magnum. Just

12:41

get the magnum. Get a lighter bullet. If

12:43

you want to go fast, get a lighter

12:45

bullet. There you go. And you

12:47

get less recoil. That's right. I've

12:49

always found that you don't

12:51

necessarily get the best accuracy

12:53

with the top load, with the highest

12:55

load. You want to start at the

12:58

bottom. That's often the case. It's usually

13:00

like work your way up or three

13:02

down from the hottest load. Right. The

13:05

highest load is where you're going to get the best accuracy. Yes. And

13:07

people say, yeah, but I wanted to. And a lot of times,

13:09

and look, I'm guilty of this. It's like, but I want it

13:11

to be 3000 feet per second. You

13:13

go, really? Why? Well,

13:16

it's a nice round number. Great.

13:18

Do you really think the deer or

13:21

the elk care? And the other part

13:23

is, and you know, there's 3000 feet

13:25

per second versus 2800 feet per second.

13:28

Once you get 300, 400

13:31

yards down range, it's

13:33

not a 200 foot per second difference.

13:35

It's a 50 foot per second difference.

13:38

And oftentimes your shoulder. Yes.

13:40

Hurts more. Yes. It's

13:43

really not fun. Yes.

13:45

For those who, the faster the

13:47

bullet goes coming out of the barrel, the

13:50

faster or the quicker it

13:52

will slow down because it's

13:55

encountering more air resistance. So

13:58

you push it faster. got

14:00

say 300 feet per second more velocity, when

14:02

you get way down range, there's not that

14:05

much difference between the two. That's

14:07

right. The parts you're gaining, and

14:09

if you would back off to 2700, 2800, shoot

14:11

a 30-06, which, oh

14:17

yeah, those just keep on working, don't they? Right.

14:20

Right. You know, it's a difference

14:22

between maybe like a six-inch drop or a 15-inch drop,

14:24

but you know,

14:26

you can always, a good rifleman will be

14:29

able to compensate for that. And now we have scope

14:31

who just dial it in. Exactly. Whatever

14:33

you want to face, the drop really doesn't matter

14:35

anymore. Yeah. Exactly right. So,

14:38

Michelle, you know, you should tell

14:40

your son, just don't worry about

14:42

the drop. Yeah.

14:45

He's doing all this long-range shooting thing, you know, it's

14:48

like a big deal. It's like, you know, tell him

14:50

you heard on the radio, if you pull the trigger

14:52

harder, it'll go farther and faster. I'll be sure to

14:54

tell him that. Yeah. He's going to

14:56

make sure he'll change up his instruction and

14:59

training experience. He

15:01

can take that back to the army and say, look guys, I

15:03

just learned something cool here. And

15:05

if you get a little... Oh, you snipers?

15:08

Yeah. You snipers have been

15:10

doing it wrong all these times, right? Yeah. And

15:12

if you give it a little throw with it too, it... Ooh,

15:14

I like that. The Audie

15:16

Murphy flip of the gun. Yeah. So

15:19

you don't have to increase your powder, you just give it

15:21

that little extra push. Yeah.

15:25

Heck yeah. Oh my. Oh

15:27

yeah. Let me know how that works for

15:29

him, okay? Yes, I will report back. Jesus.

15:35

Oh, Lordy. So, Chris,

15:38

I know you have no idea how many powders you

15:40

guys have now. No. You

15:43

know, since we acquired

15:45

Ramshot and Western powders, you know,

15:48

Acura and all those, I kind

15:50

of lost count. In

15:52

New England, Winchester? Winchester,

15:54

IMR. And

15:57

all the Hodgson... And all the Hodgson ones. Yeah. and

16:00

dozens and dozens of powders. And then you

16:02

have triple seven and pirate X. Right. All

16:05

those. Yeah. Some

16:09

are still traditionalists. They

16:14

like their black powder. Can't

16:17

you just make your own black powder? You just kind of grind

16:19

it up and do that thing. It's like I've read about this

16:21

somewhere. I've read about people doing it. I've

16:23

never done it. Yeah. It

16:25

was probably published posthumously. Yeah. I'm

16:27

sure. We like

16:29

something that's been proven in the field. After

16:32

the Big Bang. Literally,

16:35

right? Yes, exactly. It's

16:38

a different kind of Big Bang theory there. It's

16:40

like, how should we be able to make this

16:42

at home? Although,

16:44

you know, we probably got it. This would be

16:46

a good opportunity to make the point. The

16:49

powder that we use for regular

16:52

cartridges, smokeless powder, is

16:54

not an explosive. Correct. It

16:56

is. It burns. Black

16:59

powder, on the other hand, is explosive. Yes.

17:02

One of the great demonstrations of that is

17:04

that you lay out a line of smokeless

17:06

powder and then have a little

17:08

bit of black powder at the end of it. You light the

17:10

end of the smokeless powder, it's trail on the ground, and it

17:13

just burns, burns, burns, burns, burns, burns, burns. Then when it gets

17:15

to black powder, you get this

17:17

cool little puff and you get smoke coming out and you

17:19

go, okay, that's the difference between the two. That's right. Well,

17:22

you have to have a healthy respect for

17:25

both kinds of powders because they

17:27

react differently, right? Like you

17:29

were saying. So if you confine, say

17:32

if you put a smokeless

17:34

powder in a sealed container

17:37

where the container is

17:40

a metal can. It's a pressure vessel. It's a

17:42

pressure vessel. So if you shoot

17:44

into it, I've experienced this, it

17:47

will detonate and it's a

17:49

very healthy explosion

17:52

if you shoot into a can of, one

17:54

pound can of... We suggest you not do

17:56

this. Now don't do this at home. Right.

18:00

Yeah, and then black powder is

18:02

a total different animal. It's

18:06

transporting and storage

18:09

and everything else. You

18:11

have to be really careful with black powder.

18:13

Well, Michelle, at the store, storing

18:17

black powder becomes something you really have to pay

18:19

attention to, doesn't it? Yes, and it's

18:21

its own licensing. A lot of

18:23

people don't even understand that, but you have a

18:25

separate license for that. I didn't

18:28

know that. Yep, yep, it's

18:30

controlled and ATF comes and they

18:32

inspect your magazines and you have

18:34

outdoor magazines and all

18:36

kinds of stuff that you're responsible for,

18:39

but all the paperwork showing in and

18:41

out, all the movement. You're

18:43

not recording people's names, but you're

18:45

recording the movement of the powder

18:48

every day. That's interesting. I was

18:50

not aware of that. Yeah. And

18:52

then transporting, you can only have so much in your

18:54

vehicle with you. Yeah, there's

18:56

laws on everything. Wow. Okay.

19:00

Well, there's a reason that most of us don't do that, you

19:02

know, because it's like, okay, you old fashioned people. I don't know

19:04

what it is with you. Jeez.

19:07

Now, is there a limit of how much you can carry in

19:09

your covered wagon? Oh my. You

19:13

know. Ouch.

19:17

We've upgraded a little. Because

19:22

the mules got tired and Ma still needed

19:24

some air. Oh goodness gracious.

19:28

Oh Lordy. It

19:33

goes back to that whole keep your wife

19:35

happy, keep her warm, keep her cool.

19:38

Yeah, but not necessarily in

19:40

the dark. I like that. That was good.

19:43

Oh Lordy. Well,

19:46

it was fun to be able to get you two together

19:49

since you haven't seen it there other in a while. It's

19:51

been a while. Yes. This is

19:53

great. And Chris, thank you so much. I mean,

19:56

we really appreciate you letting us hang out here and do

19:58

the show from your place. pleasure

20:00

Tom. Well it has been a pleasure

20:02

for us too and Tom and Michelle

20:04

thank you it's this is fun I mean

20:06

it's like this is the

20:08

silly part of the show but it's also

20:10

the maybe the most fun we have. True.

20:13

Yeah. Because we know

20:15

at this point no one no one is

20:17

listening anymore we have run them

20:20

all off. Both of them including Jim

20:22

this time. It's really bad when you're

20:24

on air people just leave on you.

20:30

Or sometimes it's an upgrade so there you

20:32

go. There you go. Thanks Tom for stepping

20:35

in. There you go. Well

20:37

thank you guys and for everybody go

20:39

out and do a little shooting this

20:41

week have some fun. Appreciate it. Take

20:43

care. Alright take care. We'll

20:45

catch you next time for the Gun Talk After Show.