0:00

Hey, it's me Corinn. Don't fast forward

0:02

this, okay.

0:03

I Am going on a fourteenth

0:05

city stand up comedy

0:07

tour with an hour of material

0:10

that you've never heard before.

0:12

I've elongated bits, I've worked on bits.

0:15

It's good. I'm really excited about it.

0:17

It's I have the Tiger Tour twenty twenty

0:19

four, featuring Chloy le Branch,

0:21

who you've heard on Guys We Fucked Podcast.

0:24

If you live in these cities, buy your tickets now.

0:26

I'm gonna go through them. Tampa, Florida April

0:28

seventeenth, Miami, Florida, April eighteenth,

0:31

Atlanta, Georgia, April nineteenth and twentieth,

0:33

Columbus, Ohio, April twenty fifth,

0:36

Raleigh, North Carolina, April thirtieth,

0:38

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, May first,

0:41

Boston May second, Portland,

0:43

Oregon, May fourteenth, San

0:45

Francisco May fifteenth, Sacramento

0:48

May sixteenth, Seattle May

0:50

seventeenth, Houston June twenty

0:52

seventh, and Austin June

0:55

twenty eighth and twenty ninth, and

0:57

then Salt Lake City, Utah, rounding

0:59

it out on September twenty sixth. All

1:02

the tickets for all those shows are available

1:04

now at Karinfisher dot

1:06

com. You can also get it at the linktree

1:08

link in any of my bios on

1:10

social media. I'm at Philanthropy Gal

1:13

again. I have the Tiger Tour twenty twenty

1:15

four. Get your tickets now, see you

1:17

there. We're gonna have a blast.

1:19

Welcome the guys We find the anti

1:22

slut shaming podcast. I'm

1:25

Christina Hutchinson, I'm Kuren Fister, and

1:27

I'm gona boys friends,

1:29

bring us So it's flooding your horny and

1:31

your shame. Heys, what yes,

1:34

Okay, we're

1:38

here recording, recording, rolling,

1:40

Yay, this is

1:43

first step.

1:44

Great.

1:44

Yeah, okay, greetings,

1:46

fuckers, how you doing where you've been

1:49

or your socks clean? Welcome to another

1:51

episode of Guys We Fucked.

1:53

It's the anti slut shaming podcast. I'm

1:55

Karen Fisher, I'm Christina Hutchinson. Welcome

1:58

to the show. Los Angeless

2:00

May eleventh.

2:01

Are you there? So we're gonna be

2:03

doing the live episode of Guys We Fucked for the Netflix

2:05

is a joke festival.

2:06

It's a live podcast for recording. You're gonna

2:08

want to be there. It's at the Regent Theater. This

2:10

is fancy. This is a big deal. Let's

2:13

not have everyone regret it, including ourselves.

2:15

Yes, please buy ticket now, don't.

2:17

Wait, don't make us. We're gonna

2:19

give you the spiel. It's I feel like it's stick.

2:21

Your guys is kink to make us sweat it out, and then ultimately

2:23

the room is always full and like, Okay,

2:27

all's well, that ends well, I guess, guys,

2:29

but you.

2:29

Know it's better. All's well, that's well. The whole time,

2:32

we're not call our daddy. We can't afford to have Netflix

2:34

pissed at us. We can't, we can't.

2:37

We don't.

2:37

They already didn't like I hate so

2:39

much, and they made it so clear. So the fact that they even

2:41

are letting us do this festival is.

2:43

Like very Yeah, we can't make Daddy

2:45

mad. It was a surprise. Let's not have Daddy

2:48

get angry. Buy your ticket.

2:50

Please get all of our link tree bios at

2:52

guys, we fucked without the U and fucked. I'm at Christina

2:54

Hutch, I'm at Philanthropy. Ou O click

2:56

those links, baby, It's very accessible,

2:59

very excessive. Oh

3:01

my goodness, jesus.

3:02

Okay, guy, if you want to send us an email, it's

3:04

sorry about last night's show at gmail dot

3:06

com. This subject line says five months pregnant

3:09

and want my husband to take a dick

3:11

pill.

3:12

Okay, sounds tommy one. Mommy

3:14

gets what mommy wants.

3:15

Hi, Corn and Christina love you both and the show.

3:17

Your podcast is the only one I listened to

3:19

religiously. Thank you anyway. I'm

3:21

thirty one and my husband is thirty three. We've been together

3:24

for nine years, married for almost three. He

3:26

is my favorite person and I'm incredibly

3:28

attracted to him still.

3:30

I love the use of stow. I really love comedically.

3:32

I love how shocked you are by it, writer.

3:34

I really love the stow. I'm five

3:36

months pregnant and super horny all the time.

3:38

That makes me want of a baby like I could fuck one

3:40

to two times a day if we had the time.

3:43

My husband has always had a lower sex drive than

3:45

me, but usually he is always down to have sex, especially

3:47

because he knows how horny I've been lately.

3:49

Good because you are carrying that baby. It's

3:51

a lot of work.

3:52

The problem is his dick just isn't getting

3:54

as hard as it used to. It's hard

3:57

enough, but not like rock hard.

3:59

I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yea, yeah for sure.

4:02

Sometimes it'll go soft in the middle of having sex,

4:04

and it's never a big deal.

4:07

That wouldn't be I wouldn't love that thirty three were

4:09

young. We just take a break

4:12

and he will focus on me. But I miss his

4:14

super hard dick me too.

4:16

I tried to see if waiting a few extra days

4:18

to have sex would help, but it's still only

4:20

just hard enough.

4:22

God, and we all know that feeling. They

4:24

just hard enough dick. I go, I'm just yeah,

4:27

I'm just gonna have a snack. I just like I rather eatwich.

4:29

I would rather eat a piece of chocolate cake than

4:31

deal with your semi erect penis what

4:33

am I.

4:34

Supposed to do with that? And

4:36

look, die is your dick semi

4:38

erect? It's only a personal tack.

4:40

If that's the cake, that's because you and

4:42

you don't eat vegetables, Eric.

4:43

I do eat vegetables.

4:44

I have a very healthy diet. I okay, really,

4:47

yeah? Would you eat today?

4:48

I had three hard boiled eggs?

4:50

Oh, guest on over here? Yeah?

4:54

Oh man morning? Okay. I want

4:56

to gently suggest he literally, he

4:59

used literally any dick enhancing pay

5:01

it like that.

5:02

He has even mentioned that other

5:04

male comedian podcasts have made him want

5:06

to try a dick pill.

5:07

There we go.

5:08

But he just said it in passing because he all,

5:10

you got to talk to him. He needs you to get desperate,

5:13

apparently, any advice for a horny pregnant

5:15

woman. Thanks, Buy them for him and leave them out in

5:17

a little dish, like a candy dish. I've

5:19

done this for people, don't. I don't have to be cute about

5:21

it. No, just leave it where

5:23

you know he will see it. Or you can be like sexy

5:26

like ooh, like you want to make your fucking dick rock

5:28

hard? Baby, I got you this blue shoe. I heard it's

5:30

gonna be rock card.

5:31

Yeah, or just playing this part of the podcast

5:33

right now, Wow, gain an extra

5:36

half inch, just

5:38

just for the spectacle.

5:39

Just take it, and it's worth it, gain

5:41

a half an inch. I know, guys, well,

5:43

I guess if it's harder. Yeah, I know.

5:46

It's like when your hair is wet and it looks longer, you know.

5:49

I know.

5:50

I know guys who like

5:52

don't are not even having any easy

5:55

issues, and they will take a

5:57

dick pill just to like make it like a

5:59

super dick. Yeah, they can do it. You

6:01

can certainly do it.

6:02

I just really don't have any I have. I have sympathy

6:05

for people that they have the problem initially, but I don't

6:07

have any sympathy for people who aren't doing anything about

6:09

it because of the fucking highest

6:12

ass standards women are held to in a society.

6:15

You have a problem, that's fine, fucking

6:17

do something about it. Enough is enough.

6:19

Doesn't have to be a problem. It doesn't have to be a problem.

6:21

There are so many especially when when

6:23

for men getting hard, there

6:26

are a thousand products on the market to

6:28

fix this, because nothing nothing

6:30

worse for a man than him

6:32

not being able to use his dick flail it

6:34

around.

6:35

Okay, they've made the product, you

6:37

consume it.

6:38

Yeah, and if he works out, I mean

6:40

tell them to take it go for a workout, because

6:43

that I mean just the that performance

6:45

alone.

6:46

Is taking a dick pill and working out in the fucking

6:49

Oh.

6:49

I don't know if you afterwards, but you

6:52

just take to work out. No,

6:55

but I have taken them and then like day

6:57

of it's I've gone to like the gym and

6:59

I'm like, oh, I can run for so much

7:01

longer.

7:02

Whoa everything longer? It opens

7:04

up your uh chakra.

7:06

Sure we'll say that, dickra

7:09

you're.

7:10

Dickra Yeah, you just

7:12

put it somewhere because you're

7:14

carrying that baby. You

7:16

your pregnancy happens to make you very horny.

7:19

He needs to be of service

7:21

as the guy who just went into

7:24

you to make that baby happen. You're the one cooking

7:26

it, Okay, you're doing all the hard work.

7:28

I also wonder though, like if it's something like

7:30

if it did your pregnancy and

7:32

him having dick problems, did that go one hundred

7:34

percent hand in hand because some people, it's

7:37

like some guys in their heads are

7:39

weird about like just hitting the baby.

7:41

Yeah, just like it feels like and I can kind of understand

7:43

this. Not not that hitting because you're not gonna actually hit the baby.

7:45

That's just like them not understanding science. But

7:48

it's like there is something that maybe

7:50

you don't want to, like you you don't want to just absolutely

7:53

like eviscerate the pussy of the woman

7:56

like holding your child. Yeah right,

7:58

you know, I get that. I understand that

8:00

part of it. Yeah, you know, but he needs to

8:02

take a medicine and get past that.

8:05

Okay. Yeah, I mean I'm weird, Like

8:07

I had sex this morning and

8:09

my dog was buried under

8:11

the blanket I'm like, you can't be in here. You got to leave,

8:14

Kevin. Yeah, that's weird. Can't. Yeah, it's weird. I can't.

8:16

Yeah. So I can see

8:18

a guy being like, well, there's a baby. I can't

8:20

see it, but I know you obviously you know it's

8:22

there. I can't understand that. Yeah, I can do it.

8:24

I can rationalize this for sure. And some women

8:26

aren't horny during pregnancy and some arm and I'm like,

8:29

if you're horny, that means you owe me your dick.

8:31

Sorry, We're in this together, teamwork.

8:33

I mean, listen, we've told many women on this podcast

8:35

to fucking suck it up and fuck their boyfriend. So yeah,

8:38

honestly, yeah, this is

8:40

we're giving, I think, really equal opportunity.

8:43

Yes, And if

8:45

you are in Springfield, Missouri,

8:48

where are you at Springfield, Missouri? I'm headlining

8:50

the Blue Room Comedy Club

8:52

March twenty second and twenty third. My

8:54

debut stand up comedy album, Goog Girl Barbara

8:57

is available wherever you get your stand up album Spotify,

8:59

I Heard Radio app and iTunes

9:02

are the iTunes store. I

9:04

have a Patreon where once a

9:06

week I do group zoom therapy. Therapy

9:09

is what I call because I'm not a licensed therapist, Chad,

9:12

and I'm also doing on my

9:14

solo podcast, The Voices in Our Heads. I'm currently

9:16

doing a deep dive on this

9:18

book called Supercharged Self Healing

9:20

by RJ. Spina, who, as I've mentioned before,

9:23

cured himself from chest down paralysis. There

9:26

is something I forgot, there is something I want to talk

9:28

about this intro, but it has to do with this. So I'm

9:30

reading a couple pages of each chapter on the end

9:32

of The Voices in Our Heads. It's

9:34

a really powerful book and he gets

9:37

very potent exercises, and then

9:39

I'm finishing the chapter readings on my Patreon,

9:41

So if you just sign up for five bucks a month, you get to listen

9:43

in on those zoom sessions, but you also get to listen in

9:45

on the bonus chapter readings.

9:47

But one thing I just wanted to give everybody because I feel

9:49

like it would be very helpful specifically to this show.

9:52

RJ. Spina, who's the author of the book.

9:54

He has another book out let

9:57

me get the exact title. It says some similar

9:59

stuff. It's called change your deprogramming

10:01

your subconscious mind, rewire the brain, balance

10:03

your energy. He has this one notebook

10:06

exercise that I thought could be beneficial

10:08

to any listener that

10:10

kind of them finds themselves in relationship

10:14

pattern that you don't like. He

10:16

basically says that buy

10:19

a notebook and a pen, and if you could take off

10:21

work grade. If you can't find just

10:23

do it at work if you can. If not, just do it when you're not

10:25

at work. But basically interrogate

10:28

yourself. So every time you go to text

10:30

somebody, or you go to scroll on social media,

10:32

or you go to do something, or you get stuck in

10:34

this thought pattern, take a pause and

10:36

write down what you're doing and ask yourself why

10:39

why are you doing that? And the goal is

10:41

to uncover your subconscious

10:43

bringing your subconscious programming

10:46

into your consciousness and it kind of makes it dissolve

10:49

and you gain all this confidence. It's a very intriguing

10:51

exercise. I myself have not done

10:53

it yet, but this one example he gave

10:55

I wrote down because I'm like, I want to share this. So

10:59

this one woman who was a of RJ's he

11:01

suggested this. She basically on paper, she's

11:03

a Reikie healer, her career is going well.

11:05

She can't even take on any more new clients because her business

11:08

is going so good, but

11:10

she said, every relation, intimate relationship

11:12

I've have sucks the life out

11:14

of me, and it's ruining my good time

11:16

and all the things that she's worked on for her career. So

11:19

she did this notebooks exercise and it completely

11:21

transformed her. One

11:24

of the examples that she gave that r J shares

11:26

in the book was so she went to text her boyfriend

11:28

to see how he's doing, and he

11:30

just says, ask yourself, why are you doing that?

11:33

Why it's because I feel responsible for his happiness.

11:35

Why do you feel responsible for his happiness because

11:37

it's my job to make sure he's happy. Why

11:39

does it feel like that's your job? And she said,

11:41

because I don't want to fail? And

11:44

then she asked herself, why do

11:46

you think you failed if someone isn't happy?

11:48

And she answered that question saying, because it means

11:50

I'm not good enough, good enough for what for

11:53

anybody? I don't deserve to be in a relationship.

11:55

If I can't make someone happy, I need to

11:57

make someone else happy so I feel better about

11:59

my my self conscious need to

12:01

make people happy is because I don't value

12:03

myself, so I constantly focus on making sure everybody

12:06

else is doing good. She

12:08

said she would listen and obsess over what

12:10

she could do to fix people, and I was like, oh wow,

12:12

this this woman did this notebook exercise

12:14

for like a week and it completely transformed.

12:16

And all it is is just bringing in the

12:19

root of your of the habits

12:21

that you do when your kind of need jerk reactions to like people

12:23

please, for example, it's a super toxic trait, and

12:26

it's kind of easier to get to the bottom of things

12:28

than we think. You just ask yourself why, sit

12:30

there for a second and really honestly answer

12:33

it, and then just the act of

12:35

answering it and bringing it to light will make you more aware

12:37

of why you do that. So a lot of people

12:39

get stuck in negative relationship patterns with

12:42

romance, and I think that's a good little tool. So

12:44

for me to you have fun enjoy it sounds

12:47

like she needs some reking on herself. Well,

12:49

it's always the healers that are the most fucked up people,

12:52

the therapists.

12:53

I just it's so it's like it's actually

12:55

like funny at this point, Like whenever a time I hear

12:57

like someone going through like some kind of a journal

12:59

prompt or that like I was intrigued by the initial

13:01

question very much. I'm always you know, unhappy in

13:03

these in relationships. And then I'm like, yea

13:06

on edge of my see, I'm like, what's the answer, and then I go, oh,

13:08

immediately have nothing in common with this person?

13:10

Oh yeah, not relate to me.

13:13

Yeah. The goal is to uncover like you're

13:15

operating from a place of insecurity and

13:17

if you can, if you can just bring that to the surface

13:19

by verbalizing it or just writing it down

13:21

on this exercise case, a

13:23

lot of times, that'll make you stop doing it, Yeah,

13:26

which is pretty cool. That's why it's like good to get to the

13:28

root of the problem, to identify it. Yes,

13:30

and then you can do the most

13:32

important step, which is fix

13:35

it in charge of your own life. Fucking

13:38

fix it. Personal responsibility. Baby,

13:40

it's what's for dinner. It's amazing. And I

13:42

was also you know, it's your personal responsibility.

13:45

Everyone buying a ticket to one of my Eye of

13:47

the Tiger twenty twenty four shows.

13:55

Okay, I will be on the road a

13:57

lot in April, May, going into June and

13:59

September a little bit with the one and only

14:01

Chloe Labranch. So

14:04

here are the cities and the dates. It's

14:06

Tampa April seventeenth, Miami

14:08

April eighteenth, Atlanta April

14:10

nineteenth and twentieth, Columbus, Ohio,

14:13

April twenty fifth, Raleigh,

14:15

North Carolina, April thirtieth, Philadelphia

14:17

May first, Boston May second, Portland,

14:20

Oregon, May fourteenth, San

14:23

Francisco May fifteenth,

14:25

Sacramento May sixteenth, Seattle,

14:27

Washington, May seventeenth, Houston,

14:29

Texas June twenty seventh, Austin, Texas

14:32

June twenty eighth and twenty ninth, and Salt

14:34

Lake City, Utah, September twenty sixth.

14:36

Ticks are available at Corinnefisher

14:39

dot com. It's on the main page, but you could also click

14:41

live if you want more of that. It's accessible.

14:44

You can also access it via the link

14:46

tree link in my bio on Instagram

14:48

at Philanthropy gal. Again, you're

14:50

gonna come to the show, just buy the tickets sooner than

14:52

later, because a lot of these are one

14:55

nighters. A couple are like a couple shows at night,

14:57

but like they do track it and if everyone waits

14:59

till like the week of the shows

15:01

will get canceled. Not that this is in danger of happening

15:03

already, but We're just like we just know from the past, like

15:05

this is how this is. Our

15:08

listeners like to buy tickets late and

15:10

that is bad.

15:11

Yep, it's not not good. So please

15:14

stop doing that. We appreciate

15:16

you coming. But if you could make a decision, you know,

15:19

two weeks, three weeks in advance, that would be great.

15:21

And uh, just just think about

15:24

how that like it.

15:24

You know, think of how you feel when a

15:26

guy you like texts you for plans

15:29

day of instead of setting it

15:31

like a couple days in advance. Think of how much

15:33

better the in advanced plans feel

15:36

okay and they really care.

15:38

Yeah, it feels like you really wanted to be there

15:40

and it's not just a last fucking restort.

15:43

Oh, this other girl didn't text me, so courn you want to go out

15:45

to dinner exactly exactly.

15:48

And additionally, yeah, it just helps us prepare

15:51

everything. And of course, and this happened

15:53

in Washington, d C. But uh, if

15:55

you bring someone who doesn't listen to guys,

15:57

we bring someone who's not familiar with my

15:59

comedy and create a

16:01

new fan and bond with that person.

16:03

That is like amazing thing to do for

16:06

female comedians in general, because as we talk

16:08

about every week people don't cold see female

16:10

comedians, and they're going to get not one,

16:12

but two great female comedians, probably three if

16:14

there's a host. A lot of times they pick a female host for me

16:17

because I hold a knife up to their throat and I

16:19

sy female only. Otherwise they're not getting on my

16:21

fucking stage. But it's great,

16:23

and of course you can continue listening to without a Country.

16:27

Last week we went over my c Span appearance,

16:30

which was just fucking incredible.

16:32

The people who called in every week

16:35

we've been really diving in and again getting

16:37

closer and closer to that twenty twenty four election

16:39

that is going to be Biden versus Trump.

16:41

So you're gonna want to be politically aware.

16:44

And that's on YouTube or wherever you listen to

16:46

podcasts on Wednesdays,

16:49

all right.

16:50

And come see me, Yes, go ahead, and Edmonton,

16:53

Vancouver, Plano, Phoenix

16:56

or Minneapolis, and all those

16:58

those dates are in the link my bio at

17:01

Eric Freddy F R E. T. T Y

17:04

at Instagram.

17:04

Make sure you're following him even if you're not going

17:07

to code any of those shows. Guys support

17:09

Baby got to support the team, the team

17:11

of guys we fucked don't

17:13

send Eric.

17:14

Hand pictures though, hand pictures.

17:16

That's that was the thing that we had with Mike and Judge.

17:18

If you're hot based on the picture of your hand, yeah, he has he's

17:21

a he has a hand fixation. So people,

17:23

some people have ugly hands. Yeah, and they were

17:25

men were confidently sending my pictures

17:27

of their hands, and even us as non

17:30

hand aficionados, could tell that they

17:32

were not good hands. Oh yeah, there was some

17:34

hands build with those hands. Girl, Yeah, they were not

17:36

they were not or they're just like stubby little hands oh

17:39

dump thumbs. Yeah, just not good hands

17:41

that were coming in.

17:42

So listen to my

17:44

podcast, the podcast at

17:46

Eric It's Eric and Diego have

17:48

Sex only on Patreon.

17:50

What wow? Is

17:52

this a new podcast?

17:53

No, I've had it for like a year, but it's.

17:55

Called Eric and dieg ide It was his room. Eric

17:58

and Diego have said, yes, And

18:01

what inspired you to call it that?

18:03

We just thought it is funny, a.

18:07

Bit of an earwork.

18:08

We wanted to gay bait a little bit

18:11

community.

18:12

Wow, I just say

18:14

that. Oh

18:17

my god.

18:18

All right, well, uh, you know it

18:20

is award season and as every awards

18:22

season goes, there will be a man

18:25

on stage who was once broken

18:27

but was brought back to life talking

18:29

about Robert by the love of one. Yes, I am

18:31

talking about Robert down.

18:36

I think everyone. I think.

18:37

I think I've gotten so deeply into

18:40

our listeners' brains that I was sitting there

18:42

hoping I was. I was, like anyone who listens

18:44

to guys we fucked and is also watching the

18:46

Oscars right now knows I'm going to feel

18:48

some sort of way about this speech.

18:49

And let me just preface this.

18:51

By saying, I love

18:53

Robert Downey gin your He is so fucking

18:56

hot. He is one of the hottest people

18:58

to ever exist. He looked so fucking hot

19:00

last night that Zaddy. I mean,

19:02

that guy's like he's getting up there in

19:05

eight. He's in his sixties.

19:06

He's yeah, he's he's

19:09

elderly, and

19:11

he is so fucking feign

19:15

I fifty eight. Yeah, okay,

19:17

so I'm sorry, he is almost sixty. That's

19:21

not elderly. I'm gonna retrash it. That's great

19:23

to know that you could be that hot at sixty.

19:25

I think it's not very common, but for Robert.

19:29

Well, and also keep in mind that, like I think, he also

19:31

looked older previously because of all the excess

19:34

of drug use. So now, in comparison to

19:36

how he used to look like, he's he's probably

19:38

really like obsessed with health, because you

19:40

know how people with addiction get obsessed with something

19:42

else. He probably got obsessed with like taking

19:45

care of himself. And so in his

19:47

you know, he's he's been with his

19:49

current wife for a while. You know, of course he hasn't

19:51

just been married once. He's a celebrity, but he's he

19:53

doesn't have a terrible track record, right, And

19:57

so he looks down at his wife.

19:59

And she's a movie producer, which makes sense someone who

20:01

has control of a fucking situation. A

20:03

lot of these delinquent men will go with female

20:06

Hollywood movie producers, which even

20:08

though I am a creedive my personality

20:10

type is definitely a Hollywood producer.

20:12

It's not talent. Talent's all over the place, can't

20:15

fucking remember to pay their own rent. I have producer

20:17

energy, Yes you do.

20:19

And so I know that, and I so anytime

20:21

I said, I go, oh, this is a situation I would

20:23

find myself in somehow.

20:24

And he looks down at her, right, and he and

20:26

you know and everyone.

20:27

It's very well known in Hollywood that Robert

20:29

Downing Junior has had a bumpy road with addiction,

20:32

like just a excess of drug

20:35

sex worker just like you know, all this kind

20:37

of stuff and not that and you know, sex worder is bad, but he

20:39

managed to do it badly, and

20:42

so he I mean it's you know,

20:44

he even makes a joke about him, you know, kind

20:46

of being unensurable for a good amount

20:48

of his Hollywood career. And he looks

20:51

down at his wife and he said, you

20:53

know, a really talented, successful

20:57

person in her own right.

20:58

And he and he goes, you know, baby,

21:01

you loved me. Back to life, and

21:03

everyone in the in the audience goes, oh,

21:05

everyone's heart strengths are being tugged. That's

21:07

not cute.

21:08

And I don't know why it is, is society, how we can't

21:10

get that out of our head, that that's not cute. This

21:13

woman, I mean, she's probably twenty

21:15

and she looked forty.

21:16

Yeah. I was like she was no,

21:18

no. But I'm just saying, like, because of how much

21:21

time he's taken off of her life.

21:23

The told he's taken on this woman, right,

21:25

yeah, And like I appreciate that he's

21:28

acknowledging her public of course, I appreciate

21:30

that. He can't undo his thus as it happens,

21:32

it happened. He can appreciate her.

21:34

He can think her publicly.

21:36

But that's not enough. I hope he's doing and

21:38

maybe he is behind the scenes. I hope he's doing

21:41

a thousand times more for that for

21:43

her. I hope he is stepping up in ways

21:45

above and beyond as a an eternal

21:47

thank you to this woman. You know, what's

21:49

likely that it happens you put in the shee runner one day.

21:52

But I want to think.

21:53

Positively about this, right, But what I

21:56

did not appreciate everyone's reaction

21:58

in the crowd, Grow the fuck up.

22:00

That's not cute, Like, that's not we're

22:03

thinking.

22:03

We're we're giving a thank you

22:05

as number one as we're accepting an oscar?

22:07

Still something for us? Still something? What did

22:09

she get? Where's her oscar? Where's her oscar? For

22:12

digging you out of a meth ditch? Robert? And

22:14

then so as a society, like

22:17

I.

22:17

Would like to us

22:19

to reframe our thinking and stop giving men

22:22

credit for like yet, like, how

22:24

about if you just didn't go to the worst

22:26

depths of yourself? Because I know so many

22:28

women who didn't. What if you just didn't travel there

22:30

and make a woman pluck you out of it, what can

22:33

we And what if we just all applauded you for

22:35

not ever going there.

22:36

But let's just applaud for that.

22:38

Let's give Matt Damon a round of applause for just not

22:40

ever doing that. You know, there are a couple

22:42

marrying a waitress, right, just just being

22:45

like a fucking normal person.

22:47

Yeah, and uh

22:49

yeah. And then but then I started thinking of like,

22:51

you know, we get getting very into the woo

22:54

woo and like our roles and how who we

22:56

were in past lives are these lives? And

22:58

I was like maybe.

22:59

Then another part of me was started thinking, like I've

23:02

tried to fight against this,

23:04

this.

23:05

Like a dynamic for so long.

23:08

It's a battle. I am. I'm not personally

23:11

losing it, but I feel like as

23:13

women, we are still losing this battle, right,

23:16

And so then I started thinking, what if

23:19

for the iteration of your life,

23:21

for the lifetime that you are a woman, or the lifetimes

23:23

that you are a woman, is it just

23:26

our role in the dynamic

23:28

of society to fix broken

23:31

men? Is that just it? Is that?

23:33

Is that the challenge that we are supposed to be getting

23:36

through in that lifetime.

23:37

Is that another option?

23:39

I don't know, because it feels so overwhelming,

23:42

and we are constantly and I mean I think this is the patriarch.

23:44

We are constantly like applauded for

23:47

helping broken men.

23:49

It doesn't feel good, No, it's

23:51

not. It's exhausting, and it comes

23:53

from a place of Usually if you repair a

23:55

broken man, it's coming from a different place,

23:58

right, Like you're like trying to fix something else, nothing

24:00

to do with him.

24:01

I mean, or you think that you just have to

24:03

do that much work in order to receive love.

24:05

I think it's more like that totally. But

24:09

what is yeah, like what and

24:13

as but as also as as people

24:15

not part of these relationships where a

24:17

woman is fixing a broken man, we need to stop.

24:20

We need to stop applauding like the

24:22

man for like a minimal thank you for

24:25

the chaos, and have

24:28

the key rates on this woman's life and then

24:30

also like stop applauding the woman.

24:32

For doing that.

24:33

I'm gonna actually say, like stop, maybe

24:35

if we stopped rewarding women for doing

24:37

these things, they would stop doing

24:40

them. You know, how will we only applaud

24:42

her for like producing the

24:44

amazing movies? That she's produced

24:46

and not for you know, because he literally

24:48

said he's like you found me when I mean, it was like the

24:51

language he used was like you you

24:53

know and again like if it is no Hollywood

24:56

mystery that Robert Downey Junr. Was fucking

24:58

rock bottom And then there's a part of me I thought

25:00

that was, like, what did she find appealing about

25:03

Robert Downey Junior at rock bottom? Did she

25:05

see the potential, the Zaddy,

25:08

the charismatic Oscar Award

25:10

winning actor that was inside of him?

25:12

And she decided this is this is my next

25:14

project that I want to produce. This is this next

25:17

thing that I want to embark on.

25:18

I don't know. I can't answer these questions.

25:20

Only she can, and like so

25:22

often like and there has to be something

25:24

to it because so often like I'm at home,

25:26

dry heaving, and the woman you know is

25:29

seems proud and happy with

25:31

this little acknowledgment.

25:33

And I don't want to take that away from that. If

25:36

you feel proud, good fucking enjoy

25:38

that, Yeah, But I just it makes me have such

25:40

larger questions about relationships,

25:43

especially had her sexual relationships and societies,

25:47

like I mean, we love a comeback story

25:50

of course you love a comeback story. And

25:53

I do think too, like when you're with a romantic

25:55

partner and you love them,

25:58

like even with my friends, like I'll see

26:00

the best in them, and so maybe it's

26:03

like that, like I see how good

26:05

you are, and I see all the muck

26:07

on top of it that you don't really see

26:09

right now.

26:10

But she she didn't even It's not like she met him. He

26:12

fell into addiction and then she got right. She

26:14

met him when he was I mean,

26:16

I'm guessing probably incoherent.

26:18

I'm probably pretty charismatic and charming,

26:21

probably like I don't know, like like okay, like

26:23

what like I mean he was using what like what

26:25

drugs?

26:25

He is so charming and so hot, Oh my god, Yeah,

26:28

like the sex appeal probably wasn't that

26:30

watered down with the addiction stuff. Like

26:33

sometimes it's hard to tell. Yeah,

26:35

but I will say too as somebody and I've said this before,

26:37

but I just I'll remind you I was using

26:39

heroin and crack fuck,

26:42

so he was okay, wow, those are

26:45

very opposite drugs. See, because I

26:47

know it's not just like a Hollywood guy who's

26:49

buzzing on coke. This this is

26:52

it says it says by nineteen

26:54

ninety five, he had descended into the harrowing

26:57

depths of heroin and cracked

27:00

pane abuse, leading to multiple

27:02

arrests and numerous stints in rehab facilities.

27:05

Yeah, you know, even if Robert

27:07

Downey Juter, even if like I had a friend

27:11

and I found out they were using heroin, I would

27:14

feel a little bit of a responsibility to

27:16

try to get them, help them,

27:18

to help them as much as I can. I would

27:21

that that's a bummer, But a.

27:22

Lot of times that help really turns into enabling

27:25

in backfire. So like the kind of life that

27:27

you would need to give as a romantic partner,

27:29

it had to be I'm guessing

27:31

in some way enabling. And then just in

27:34

Susan her name is Susan. In Susan Downe's

27:37

case, it turned out positive,

27:40

right, luck.

27:41

Of the draw kind of thing exactly right, right

27:43

right, And listen, you know, we love a gambling

27:45

woman, we love a risk taking a woman. Goddamn

27:48

right, But why not it's just again, why not take

27:50

this risk on yourself? Like it was worth

27:52

that maybe of a risk for love. Maybe

27:54

she already maybe she

27:57

already risked her like took

27:59

risks on her during her whole life,

28:01

and she's really proud of her progress,

28:03

and she's like, well, this is nothing.

28:05

Maybe maybe I just mean they like the amount

28:07

of time and the thank you, like you can

28:09

tell you can tell from the

28:12

thank you how bad the crack cocaine used

28:14

was.

28:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that. I got me.

28:17

Sure we could tell from Robert Downey's

28:19

juniors things.

28:20

You could believe he was alive. The crack use

28:22

was alarming. Yeah, yeah,

28:24

cracks alarming. Don't do it, kids,

28:27

And I'll say I I am.

28:30

I am a person here to tell you that it

28:33

is possible to be with a partner who

28:35

is in an active addiction and they themselves

28:38

without you saying a goddamn thing,

28:41

want to make their lives better and

28:44

enter sobriety, and you're there

28:46

for the ride, but you had nothing to do

28:48

with their decision to be sober. It's

28:50

amazing, But you also agree that was a gamble

28:52

for you to enter that in hoping that

28:55

he would stop. Uh huh right, yes, okay,

28:57

But I also I wasn't saying

29:00

much about it. I was

29:02

be I was kind of like distant from his

29:04

addiction because I knew that

29:06

I'm like it's not going to be potent in any

29:08

way. If I'm the one who, like

29:11

who pushes you to get there, it won't stick. You

29:14

have to do it, and you know, my

29:16

head, I'm like, well, we can't get to these certain milestones

29:18

if it's still like this, you know,

29:21

but you gotta kind of hope Hope.

29:24

Really, yeah, sometimes

29:26

hope works. It's my most destructive

29:29

addiction is hope. But

29:31

then when it works, you're like, oh, it's so good. You

29:33

don't know Hope like I do. Well,

29:36

it's just me and Hope. It's great. Hope's

29:38

my best friend. It's my fucking lover, she

29:40

said, spanks me and makes me walk around

29:42

in high heels and crawl on the floor. Damn,

29:45

Hope is so sexy. Hope.

29:47

You got it girl. So yeah,

29:49

glad, he's glad, he's sober. Yeah, I could

29:51

tell by that speech. Well one I already heard, like I

29:53

heard your monologue. I was watching it and it was killing

29:56

me because I really I was so happy for him, and I really, yeah,

29:58

I can't. This is first Oscar. Yeah it was. He

30:00

was been nominating before but he never won, And like you

30:02

could tell, I mean, there was a number when there was too many fucking

30:04

standing ovations that that Oscars last night. Yey were standing

30:06

for it. They just stood for good. They stood for Jimmy Kimmel.

30:09

I was like, laughable, this is laughable. I will

30:11

say the way that they presented like best Actress,

30:13

best supporting and stuff with they had like the previous

30:15

winners and said the most beautiful

30:18

that was really nice and copy that those actors

30:20

gave it was sincere. It was heartfelt,

30:22

beautifully performed themselves.

30:24

I hope so too. It felt like it because especially

30:27

the ones that had a personal connection with Yah.

30:29

Yeah, but that was such a beautiful touch.

30:31

I'm like, damn, I liked it too. To be honest,

30:33

I totally forgot, like when Kimmel was like, uh,

30:36

you know, we thought we this is the fifth fiftieth

30:38

anniversary of the Streaker, we thought

30:40

that was gonna be the most I totally forgot about the Will Smith

30:42

slop. I totally felt it left my until

30:45

I brought that up. I was like, oh my god,

30:47

yeah, I forgot about that and so and

30:50

because he was like, we thought this was gonna be the most memorable

30:52

Oscars moment until you know, I

30:54

was like, what was it? I forgot about

30:56

that too. I forgot about that too. Yeah,

30:59

wild that was the most talked about and I'm

31:01

like, this is never not gonna be talked about the slap herd

31:03

around the world and yeah, no, it's just we all.

31:05

It just goes to say like, no one's important, no

31:08

one's thinking about you. I wasn't thinking

31:10

about the Will Smith slap for a year.

31:12

Yeah that's crazy, that's true. We're

31:15

all busy with our own lives, guys. Damn

31:18

Okay, speaking

31:20

of damns,

31:28

We're so excited to be here

31:30

with Mark Groves. We were saying

31:32

before we before we started recording

31:35

that, uh, it's so nice to have a guest on

31:37

that we can actually use as a resource

31:39

for our own lives. Yeah, we just called you in because we

31:41

need help.

31:42

Yeah, you know what whatever, just

31:45

to be here, so excited to be in person.

31:47

But if we could, you know, do some intervention,

31:49

a please use

31:52

protection. Come

31:55

on, the bully

31:57

is an.

31:58

Effective uh yeah

32:00

yeah, then the fluid bonding is just

32:02

you know, that's the point. I'm not going to date. What's the point

32:04

for dating? But so

32:07

this is really great. So Karin was told, I don't

32:09

know if you want to go first Krin, but you I was thinking about

32:11

what you were telling me earlier about codependency.

32:13

Oh yeah, so I've been thinking about a lot about codependency.

32:15

I actually like put little homework assignments

32:18

for myself on my to do list for the week, and one

32:20

of them was, like you have this podcast,

32:22

Like, I know, people talk about codependency

32:24

all the time.

32:25

I seemingly know what it is.

32:26

I think it's just hard with my personality to really wrap

32:29

my mind around it. So when I saw that's one of

32:31

the main things we're speaking about in your new

32:33

book, like, I need some

32:35

Can you explain to me what is codependency

32:38

in Layman's terms, and

32:41

what does that look like and like and how

32:43

do people get themselves into codependent

32:46

relationships? It feels like such a foreign concept to

32:48

me that I that I really need someone.

32:50

To break it down. Starts with your mother, Karina.

32:52

I just yeah, I mean most stuff

32:54

does got a bad rap.

32:56

Yeah, some moms are bad.

32:57

That's very true.

33:01

Yeah, you can go hut time. My mouth was open, but

33:03

I was done.

33:07

Yeah, you know.

33:08

Codependency The term is

33:10

traditionally known in the addiction circles. So

33:12

based on alan On and the original

33:14

work in that space is by Melody B. D. It's a book

33:16

called Codependent No More Right. And so we know

33:19

codependency as this idea of

33:21

being the enabler. So the person who's

33:24

constantly like trying to shape shift help

33:26

someone save them. And so people

33:28

who are in relationship with addicts really need to

33:30

understand that because they're part of the

33:32

challenge.

33:33

And I often think about that, and.

33:35

You know, I'll get to like our definition

33:37

of codependency that we have in the book, But I often

33:39

think about, you know, when someone finally

33:41

gets sober, it's one because the people around

33:43

them say, I love you too much to let this happen

33:45

anymore, and I will no longer participate

33:48

in your addiction or whatever it is, your

33:51

toxic behavior. And but

33:53

when they get sober or stop doing the

33:56

thing they're doing, the person who's trying to change

33:58

them doesn't have a job anymore. So

34:00

part of what the person who's trying

34:03

to change people does, and this is dating

34:05

unavailable people. This is staying

34:07

in relationship dynamics that don't serve you, dating

34:09

someone who's ambivalent, doesn't know what they want.

34:12

These are all ways that we abandon

34:14

ourselves and what we truly desire, and if

34:16

we were to stop doing that, we stop

34:18

sourcing our worth from someone needing us

34:20

to help them change. So we

34:23

define it in the book as a relational dynamic

34:26

where we source safety from

34:28

something or someone at

34:31

the expense of ourselves and

34:33

our overall well being and

34:35

our safety. So

34:37

it's essentially like you're

34:40

not the main character in your story.

34:42

It's always about other people. Now.

34:44

On the other side, where we would think an attic normally

34:46

takes that role is actually someone

34:49

who generally has a challenge in the

34:51

psychological world. They might say that they're underfunctioning,

34:54

that they are not fully adulting, you

34:57

know what I mean. And they

34:59

might ident defight is broken, that there's

35:01

something wrong with them.

35:03

They really don't have a capacity to hold shame.

35:07

And usually you find these people together, you

35:09

find the person who's quote unquote more anxiously

35:11

attached with the person who's more avoidant.

35:14

So one is afraid that there's not

35:16

there's too much space between me.

35:18

And the other person.

35:19

Like when we think about attachment styles and

35:21

have you had someone come on and talk about it before.

35:23

We've talked about yeah, talked about it before.

35:25

I like to think of it instead of like I am

35:28

anxious or I am avoidant, or I am secure,

35:30

it's I'm prone to Because.

35:31

Yeah, that's good because then you're labeling that for yourself

35:34

for the rest of time because you kind of evolve.

35:36

It's called earned secure, So you learn how to become

35:38

secure, and it's your modeling behaviors of

35:40

what a secure person would do, and you become secure.

35:43

I mean, it sounds a lot easier than it is, but

35:45

the I think of it like it's your

35:47

relationship to space. So anxious people

35:49

don't like too much space. It means a

35:52

lack you're gonna leave me. I'm not safe, and

35:54

avoiding people need space,

35:56

so when there's not enough, they need space.

35:58

So think about these two people together.

36:00

And we've all seen two people start

36:02

dating that you're like, no, what

36:05

are you doing? And they just feed each other, right, Like, I've

36:07

witnessed relationships where I'm like, it's just

36:09

I don't want to be around you at a function

36:12

or any and I've certainly been in those relationships. I've

36:14

been that person and it's like you're just going to

36:16

back away until they figure out that that's not good.

36:19

That is such the healthy response

36:21

when someone is constantly distancing. I

36:23

always think like they can't move towards you if

36:26

you keep taking up the space, you know what I

36:28

mean.

36:28

Yeah, that's a good one. How do you feel safe

36:31

when you don't feel safe? That's

36:33

a big question.

36:34

Well, usually we're looking for the other

36:36

person to alter the relationship dynamics

36:39

so that safety becomes, you know something,

36:41

so safety being like am I safe to

36:43

self express? Am I safe to be myself? Am

36:45

I safe to be vulnerable? Am I safe

36:47

to have wounds? And ultimately

36:50

it's like we're seeking for someone else to finally

36:52

give us that, But it's really us who ask to give

36:54

it, right, Yeah, yeah, it's all just evidence

36:57

for our own you know, need

36:59

to heal and grow.

37:00

Have you felt unsafe in relationships past.

37:02

One hundred percent? Even in the book?

37:04

My wife and I in the

37:06

book we talk we talked about relationship one point

37:08

oh this sacred pause and relationship two point zero

37:11

and that's our first relationship. Then a breakup and then

37:13

we got back together, and that was not planned. I

37:15

did not expect to get back together and

37:17

really no.

37:20

Together what I was very carefully watching this.

37:22

I really love this, this story, I mean, great

37:25

for the book, but I know that's not why you did it.

37:27

You did Wow.

37:27

Yeah. I was like, this is like the Notebook

37:30

but better.

37:32

Yeah.

37:32

Relationship one point zero completely lacked

37:35

safety because my wife was

37:38

previously divorced, very dis

37:40

She was afraid to come fully into

37:42

the relationship and so she.

37:44

Had this dream.

37:46

And what how this came forward is I was

37:48

going for a run and I was like, man, I keep feeling like

37:50

I chase her and then and then I

37:52

come close to her, and then she runs again. So I got

37:54

back from the run and I was like, hey, you know,

37:56

this is what I'm noticing, and she was like,

37:59

yeah, you're right. I actually had this dream where

38:01

there was a house that was burning and it

38:03

was our relationship and the message I got

38:06

was.

38:06

You need to go.

38:07

Oh.

38:07

And this was about eight months into our relationship.

38:09

Broke up with you no, no, no,

38:11

but that she had been holding this

38:14

fear because she didn't want to go anywhere. She was

38:16

like, I finally met a guy who like thinks about

38:18

how I think, is open to growth, et cetera,

38:20

et cetera. And she was

38:22

like, what's wrong with me that I can't choose

38:25

this? I don't want to leave mm hmmm. And

38:27

so she and I spent so much

38:29

of our relational energy trying to figure out

38:31

how to fix this thing right.

38:33

So one she has to believe there's something wrong with

38:35

her that she can't choose this relationship. And

38:38

two I'm like, hey, like you're

38:40

not you might leave at any moment, Like

38:42

this dream still lives.

38:44

But the dream was just fear right, Yeah,

38:46

yeah, I mean like it manifesting because so many we

38:49

got a little too into woo woo stuff. And

38:51

on this podcast, if I get one more email

38:53

that's like I had a dream about this is

38:55

this So on my relationship, I'm going

38:57

to end it, okay, And I mean my own

39:00

life, I just can't. Like I just so,

39:02

I'm glad that you brought this up, because see,

39:04

you guys, sometimes a dream is just our fear

39:07

talking to us in our sleep.

39:08

He's the show's from

39:11

God. And a lot of times when you suppress

39:13

your fear, it makes all the sense in the world that it's going to be manifest

39:15

as a dream some metaphor. Yes, exactly.

39:18

So you felt unsafe in relationship one

39:20

point zero.

39:21

Yeah, because at any time, you know, now there's

39:23

this unconscious fear. She could go till it's

39:25

resolved and she's like, I choose this, that dream

39:28

is no longer relevant, right, But

39:30

it really was. We what shifted

39:33

towards the end of relationship. One point, oh is

39:35

we were like, hey, we've done

39:37

everything, Like we're two pretty

39:39

self aware people. Were

39:41

were deep in the work. We're seeing lots

39:43

of mentors and therapists, et cetera, just

39:46

trying to figure this out, like

39:48

we love each other. And I was like, what

39:50

happens if actually what

39:52

you're thinking you're broken is actually wisdom?

39:56

Oh, Like you're sensing a deeper relational

39:58

pattern here that needs to be

40:00

resolved, and so you're saying I gotta go. And

40:02

she talks about it. I love the way she expresses it. She's

40:05

like her body was like the somatic canarian.

40:07

The coal mine.

40:08

Mm hmmm.

40:09

And it it is so true because

40:11

by then seeing that what was coming up

40:13

for her was actually

40:16

wisdom, we could act upon that,

40:19

we ended the relationship. Oh yeah,

40:21

and that was It was

40:23

so beautiful because now instead

40:26

of me being like, it's okay to be in a relationship

40:28

with someone who might go, I was like, no.

40:30

Right, right, that's the that's an act

40:32

of safety. Right.

40:33

Really, I couldn't feel safe because I didn't

40:35

trust myself. It looked like she wasn't choosing

40:38

me, but I was leaving myself in circumstances

40:41

with.

40:41

An ambibiuent person. So like, how

40:43

could I not have anxiety gut stuff?

40:46

Right?

40:46

Like it's I'm thinking it's her and

40:48

then I get to make it her.

40:49

Yeah, it's so in relationships, it's

40:52

we're so quick to think

40:54

that the other person is the one who needs to change,

40:56

right when we're the ones who needs to change.

40:58

And by a lot of times that change means leave the relationship

41:01

right and and change how we orient to

41:03

someone not changing. Yeah, right, Like that's

41:05

the big shift. It can be a massive

41:07

shift when as you're saying, oh,

41:09

it's what's my side of the street. Like every

41:12

relational dynamic we're in, we're in.

41:15

We are the common denominator in all our

41:17

relationship outcomes.

41:18

Yeah, and even if the other person does need to change, you cannot.

41:21

That's work they have to do on their own time. It's only like I'm

41:23

like, you have control of your own actions to work

41:25

on that. People are so obsessed

41:28

with other people's or their friend's friends. Like there's

41:30

so many people who write in and they're like, my

41:32

friend is in this relationship.

41:34

I go, you have too much. You have too much

41:36

time on your right unless they're in

41:38

imminent danger, right, you

41:41

probably have some stuff to work on that you can grate

41:43

on. Yeah, it's so much easier to have your intenn's pointed

41:46

out word than then word.

41:47

Well, isn't that again, Like you're you're

41:49

putting your attention and your life force into

41:51

trying to resolve other people's conflict. Sure,

41:53

there's more codependency, it's like stay

41:55

in your lane.

41:57

Do you think how much codependency do you think is

42:00

from a person's subconscious desire

42:03

to fix their own dynamic with a parent?

42:06

Because that fuel you're

42:08

blind, like you have that fuel, it

42:11

gives you such tunnel vision that all you

42:13

like because I've experienced that. I've been on

42:15

the rocket of that and it's like nothing

42:17

else exists except this goal. It's

42:19

wild, never focused on something so much in

42:22

my life, very unhealthy.

42:24

Well, it makes sense because you think it's the unresolved

42:27

need of the child. So

42:30

the we usually orient

42:32

a relationship from the place of needing to resolve

42:34

that unconsciously. So the relationships,

42:36

as you know, we draw into our lives are

42:38

usually re wounding us in a way that

42:40

is familiar, and usually

42:43

with a parent, and usually

42:45

the parent that we sort of experience the most challenged

42:47

with. I'd say it's it's unfortunately

42:50

usually our mother, because that's where we learn

42:52

secure, attachment, attainment, all the

42:55

things. So you know, it's

42:57

I would say almost all

43:00

codependency is rooted in our childhood

43:02

dynamic, but I'd say culture moves in there.

43:04

You also look at what do movies tell us.

43:06

The stories are like, be a

43:08

woman sitting in the top of a building who

43:11

needs to be saved, like the top of a castle.

43:13

And then the man needs to be the one who goes and fixes

43:15

it.

43:15

And movies fuck me up. Everyone's talking about child

43:18

to trauma. Go that's movies for me, one hundred

43:20

percent, not parent stuff. It's more like movies

43:22

also presented a much more exciting

43:25

existence because in a movie,

43:27

it doesn't show you. You're not looking at

43:29

the mundane parts of life. You're only

43:31

seeing the It's a highlights reel, right, It's

43:34

like Instagram before Instagram existed.

43:36

So I'm like, oh, you guys want to talk

43:38

about trauma, Let's talk about how exciting

43:40

and thrilling movies are. I Mean, a

43:43

big question that I ask like all the time on this

43:45

podcast is like do I even have a soulmate?

43:47

Because like we're sold this idea that like everyone

43:50

does and then you go, all right, well it's been like thirty

43:52

eight years, Like what's happening here?

43:54

You know, It's like it feels like

43:56

something that you're old, the same way I feel about

43:58

tits, Like I didn't get those either. You

44:01

know, there's like a long list of things that I was like,

44:03

why really I deserve a refund?

44:06

Well, the the idea that we

44:08

have a soulmate, I think it's just so

44:10

limiting, you know. I know people who are in some

44:13

toxic relational dynamics

44:15

that the yeah, and they'll say there's

44:17

this one I can think of where they're like, he's

44:20

my twin flame.

44:22

Flame red flag.

44:25

Well, and to me, it's like, soulmate

44:28

doesn't mean because I think

44:30

we have many. I think that's just a much easier they

44:32

could be. It could be a dog, it could be a person, right,

44:35

and and they're really people

44:37

who wake us up to our patterns, you

44:39

know. But yeah, to think that your soulmate

44:41

you have to work it out with that

44:44

is the illusion. Maybe the lesson from the soulmate

44:46

is that you actually need to choose yourself and

44:48

not you know, and then you put yourself on

44:50

the path to somebody who's

44:53

who You're not trying to resolve childhood

44:55

stuff with anymore, you know, And that we

44:58

usually orient to our relationships from place

45:00

of wounding, seeking them to be healed, and

45:02

we do that in our life. Like, think about what brings

45:04

us to personal growth. It's usually

45:07

the idea that something wrong with us. Yeah,

45:10

but at some point in our life we can't

45:12

orient to the world from that place anymore.

45:14

It has to be there's something right with me.

45:16

These challenges that I'm having are

45:18

no longer evidence of my lack of or

45:20

my inadequacy.

45:22

They're actually evidence that I'm learning.

45:24

Oh, I like that reframe. It's all about reframing

45:27

you something. And it's like, there

45:29

was this quote the other day from this author that

45:31

I'm reading, and he said anger

45:34

is the ego substitute for courage,

45:36

and I'm like, God damn, that

45:38

makes me actually not want to have road rage

45:42

because I have that road rage and I'm like, now I do

45:44

not want to indulge in that

45:47

getting off on the anger thing. Because

45:49

it's just like thinking of it as a substitute for

45:51

courage. So that's so. Yeah, the reframing

45:54

is huge. I imagine there was a lot of reframing when you got

45:56

back together with your now wife.

45:58

Yeah.

45:58

How long was the break?

46:00

Ten months?

46:00

Okay?

46:01

Ten months?

46:02

Did you talk a lot?

46:03

No?

46:03

No, no time, especially right

46:05

away. I was like, no communication

46:08

for three months, and then we

46:10

came back together, had dinner, and

46:12

then we were like no, not aligned. Yeah,

46:14

and then yeah, we came back

46:16

again. And so it broke

46:19

up into September, and I think it was April or

46:21

something like that May the following

46:24

year that we actually were like

46:26

okay. She actually sent me

46:28

a message and was like, I'd like to chat and

46:30

like catch up, and you know, I'm interested

46:33

in sharing with you some of the things I've

46:35

learned. And we had a coffee and she was like, I'm

46:37

ready to choose this. Oh,

46:40

I'm ready to have kids, I'm ready to do those

46:42

things. Oh wow with you, But

46:45

I'm not ready to just jump into that

46:47

as a commitment.

46:48

I'd like to explore that with you.

46:50

I'd like.

46:50

So we created what we called a dating container.

46:53

It was like and you know, in Stan Tacken's

46:55

work. He's a famous psychotherapist. He

46:57

talks about how the reason that relatesh

47:00

ships end is because they fail to create

47:02

clear agreements at the start. Yeah,

47:04

so our container was just very clear agreements,

47:06

like we we weren't seeing

47:08

other people, we were going to check in

47:11

all the time.

47:12

Everybody's always so scared to ask, Like, so we can

47:14

be monogamous like until it gets

47:17

too late. Yeah.

47:18

Right.

47:18

You can't create emotional safety

47:22

if you're directing your relational

47:24

energy into a person who is directing

47:26

it into multiple people.

47:28

It's impossible.

47:29

And see, I'm glad you said that because these

47:31

people who are starting open like the starting

47:34

what like a primary relationship, but keeping

47:37

it open at the start, I just think

47:39

it is a real big mistake.

47:41

Yeah, Like I respect everyone's

47:43

relational choice. I just I just think

47:45

either.

47:46

I just think, but I'm happy

47:48

that you do. That's that's why that you're in the studio

47:50

with us.

47:51

Yeah, I don't want to.

47:53

I do think that polyamory

47:55

is often the changing

47:58

of a relational dynamic that we probably

48:00

want to end or don't know how to do the work

48:02

within. And that's not always true, but I think that's often

48:05

true. It's like we're creating safety nets,

48:07

yeah, that are protecting us from

48:09

really going deeper with one person.

48:11

It's like it to me, like polyamory

48:13

to me is like a lot of a lot of people. Also is

48:16

my issue is like that they're calling something polyamory

48:19

that is not they're They're just

48:21

calling the ability to constantly

48:23

fuck around pomory and memory

48:26

is extremely complex. And I know

48:28

maybe one person who I really feel to be polyamorous.

48:30

And this is a person who has, like in a

48:33

beautiful way, devoted their life to love.

48:35

Nothing I want a part of. But like, goddamn,

48:37

does this person spend a lot of time

48:39

on relationships and love and caring

48:42

for the people in their life?

48:43

I mean you have to when you have a lot of relationships. How

48:45

do people have our time? I have one wife?

48:47

Yeah, I can imagine having a bun yeah yeah,

48:49

yeah, yeah, that's wild. Yeah.

48:57

What other agreements were in your dating container?

48:59

Yeah?

48:59

So I was just reading the audible

49:01

for our book and I laughed

49:04

because one of the agreements was not

49:06

to have penetrative sex. So I

49:08

had to say penetrative of penetrative

49:10

yeah, And I was like, I feel like the mark, I

49:13

feel like I'm like in health classes or

49:15

something so clinical. It really felt

49:18

I always laugh whenever I say it. But so we didn't

49:20

have sex, But did you get a finger

49:22

in?

49:23

Yeah?

49:23

We did all that. It was actually really fun.

49:27

Were you doing insertions? Okay? Months

49:29

fun to put a little like because then

49:31

people just jump in physically like people

49:33

just jump in right away, and it's like, man, you really miss

49:36

that out on the making out, on the grabbing, the

49:38

boobs, over the shirt, the fingering,

49:40

you know, all that fun stuff. A

49:43

good hand job, Yeah, you know what

49:45

is a good hand job?

49:46

Mark, I think it's a two hand job really

49:50

more attention.

49:51

Really, yeah, I feel like my

49:53

I like doing it with one. The rhythm

49:55

is hard with two interesting, okay.

49:58

Yeah yeah, it's like your stomach and

50:01

you know yeah yeah.

50:03

That was another agreement.

50:04

Which I really resisted that one

50:07

at first. No

50:09

penetrative act. It's a beautiful

50:12

I've match practice. The audible

50:14

person's like, what penetrative?

50:19

Yeah, because

50:22

I'm more like what we would think of as

50:24

the woman in the relationship. As soon as I have a connection

50:26

with someone, I'm like marriage the brain and

50:30

girlfriend. That's that not like

50:32

no joke for sure, And what

50:35

I found that did for me was

50:38

the container made it so.

50:40

The relationship could not accelerate.

50:43

So even if I was like, you know, a month

50:45

and oh we're doing good, like we're labeling like we're

50:47

good now, and it was like, that's not

50:49

part of the agreement. And what I noticed

50:52

was that I wasn't ready to call

50:54

it a yes yet, but I wanted it to

50:56

be a yes, so I felt more secure.

50:59

Does that make sense?

50:59

Yes?

51:00

And that was part of the me being with someone who couldn't

51:03

fully choose the relationship was that I

51:05

had already bypassed the sense

51:07

that why would you ever put yourself in a relationship

51:09

with someone who can't fully choose it. That makes no sense, but

51:12

it means that somewhere when I was young,

51:14

I learned that it was okay

51:16

to not feel fully chosen and that became just

51:19

normal. So my nervous system

51:21

not knowing where I fit was actually

51:23

familiar. And what that three month

51:25

container and also our breakup did for me was

51:28

recognize what a no is. And

51:31

I was working with this client recently and

51:34

I was talking to her. She had like a lot of guys who

51:36

were her friend who wanted more, and then she was

51:38

friends with guys she wanted more from.

51:40

And I said, like, isn't this interesting that the

51:42

thing you're doing to these men who want

51:44

more and you know and then you like source stuff

51:47

from them, you're also in the same

51:49

circumstance with someone else. And

51:51

I said, so till you can

51:53

actually get very clear on what a no is in your

51:55

life, You're yes, actually isn't a

51:57

real yes, right, you know, because

52:00

your yes still comes with small print. It's

52:02

like, I'm yes on the condition. So

52:05

if I can't say this is definitely not a

52:07

fit for you, but if it's not a

52:09

fit for you, it's not a fit for me.

52:10

Yeah.

52:11

So, like our other agreement, coming back

52:13

together was a fierce dedication to the

52:15

truth, the truth ahead of anything.

52:17

This working out This not because

52:19

we realized through working with thousands

52:21

of people and just all the experiences we'd

52:24

had personally, was that the

52:27

truth is ultimately what deepens trust

52:29

and intimacy. We grow up in families

52:31

where the family create, everyone has a

52:33

role, where we don't talk about dad's alcoholism

52:36

or mom's narcissism or whatever it is, right

52:38

right and so and so we're

52:41

like bringing pad.

52:42

The lies in all of your other relationships

52:44

going forward? Right, Why don't nothing to see

52:46

here?

52:47

That's why I'm like, fuck that, Yeah, Like I

52:49

don't want relationships like that.

52:51

Can you recall the truth? Can you recall something

52:54

that either you said to her or she said to you that you were like,

52:56

ooh, okay, that's the truth. Yep,

52:59

I'm gonna have to take a break and cry real quick.

53:02

I mean a few One that comes to mind

53:04

was in our previous

53:06

relationship, and then one when we got back together.

53:08

One in our previous relationship was

53:12

she was coming. So this was like as

53:14

we were about to meet

53:16

again. She was not living in Vancouver

53:18

at the time, and I said, well, you

53:21

know what, I'll pay for your flight, like

53:23

come visit. And as

53:25

soon as I said it, this

53:28

was wild. I could hear this voice inside

53:30

me that was like, if you pay for her flight, you've

53:33

got her. And

53:35

I didn't notice that really, like I

53:37

noticed it, but I was like, nah, whatever. And

53:39

then when she came to Vancouver. I

53:42

don't think I ended up paying for her flight. But when she

53:44

came to Vancouver, she was like that didn't

53:46

feel clean, and I was like,

53:48

what do you mean, And she's like, I'm just wondering what's

53:51

wrong with me that I couldn't receive your

53:53

generosity to pay for the

53:55

flight?

53:55

Oh okay, that's an interesting way to say that.

53:57

And I said, actually,

54:01

I feel a lot of shame saying this,

54:03

but I think what you were onto is that

54:05

I had this like unconscious

54:08

sense that if I paid for it, I

54:10

had power.

54:11

Over you manipulated.

54:13

And then I was like, so

54:15

so when I shared with her that, she started crying

54:17

because she immediately thought there

54:20

was something wrong with her that she couldn't receive my generosity,

54:22

right.

54:23

Jeez, and you were you were having a whole other dynamic.

54:25

I was going on to manipulate and

54:28

her body, which I think women,

54:30

but I think people, but especially women have

54:33

been taught to bypass that sense

54:35

and then think because think about it, ends I've done

54:37

a.

54:37

Lot because there's like statistics of like

54:39

when people don't women don't follow their gut

54:42

because out of basically.

54:43

Politeness A lot of time, like walking

54:45

on the other side of the street when they feel safe, when someone's

54:47

on the like following them or something, they end up literally

54:50

dead.

54:51

Right, And you think, I wonder how they do that. Research

54:54

did you or did you not follow your guys?

54:56

The street and you just did it, mam ma'am below.

55:00

Yeah, she's choice, she

55:02

attacked.

55:02

Yeah. Yeah.

55:03

The with What

55:06

I found interesting about that was that even

55:09

you know, call it the patriarchal sort of training,

55:11

that I'm fine and I was just being

55:13

generous. And so we in our book

55:15

go through these what we call codependent

55:18

hooks and their unconscious ways

55:20

that we hook into people's energy

55:23

so that we can keep them close.

55:24

Oh yeah, probably that.

55:26

Yeah, you know, I started to realize how much I did

55:28

it, and that so I had to really I

55:31

had to be with the shame that I had been

55:33

doing this my whole life, using charm,

55:36

using you know, humor,

55:38

using everything to like try to bring

55:41

someone close, intuiting their

55:43

needs yea, you know, but leaving

55:45

my own center. Like if I have to pay for someone

55:47

to keep someone close, that's not security,

55:50

right right, right right, It's

55:52

meeting a need, yes exactly.

55:54

But think about relational dynamics.

55:56

They are fueled by that power dynamic.

55:58

Oh my god, the cat and schame of just

56:00

even like getting together in the first place, and the attraction.

56:03

It's like, don't call them back right away,

56:05

don't text her immediately after the you know, and it's

56:07

like, Okay, I mean just the dance is kind

56:09

of fun, but then when the game playing

56:12

extends into what are we it's like this

56:14

is not enjoyable.

56:15

Right, right?

56:16

And it's crazy to me that we're so worried

56:18

about asking someone if you know, let's

56:20

say we want to not see other people

56:22

because you can sense that you want to invest more and

56:24

you want more safety emotionally, that

56:27

we're actually afraid to have that conversation because

56:29

it might push our soulmate away.

56:31

But if they're their soul mat away

56:34

and it'll filter.

56:34

Them, right, you want to filter out the

56:36

people who.

56:37

Don't want it, right.

56:38

It's such a mind fuck.

56:39

Well, there's this thing with romantic relationships,

56:42

especially if you've had any sort of like trauma

56:44

of any kind in childhood, which most people have, where

56:46

it's like, man, if I lose this, I'll never get

56:48

this feeling again. And that

56:50

is a really big selling point to

56:53

cling.

56:54

It really is.

56:55

And I always think, like the

56:57

the universe God, your experience doesn't matter.

56:59

Whatever words you use will remove

57:02

people from your life who you

57:04

place your value in having. Sure absolutely

57:06

to remind you that your value doesn't live in

57:09

having them. So if you're if you lose

57:11

your relationship and your sense of self

57:13

is in your relationship status, which I think as

57:15

a culture we celebrate that. Oh

57:17

yes, basically because if you're single,

57:20

people go like, oh, why are you still single? Like

57:22

you have an ailment.

57:23

Oh.

57:23

I was literally just talking about those a couple of months ago because

57:25

I was like, I actually like fucking hate having a boyfriend,

57:28

and anytime I had one, it was just like a strategic

57:30

move to like have my like

57:32

like to peer to others like as

57:35

it's like, oh, I have everything, so stop asking

57:37

me about it.

57:38

I'm like, I don't like having it. So even if

57:40

that appears lower value or like.

57:42

Losing to you, I'm winning because I don't

57:44

want to have a boyfriend because it sucks.

57:47

Like having one, because it is a sense

57:49

of going validation.

57:52

Just having one in general. Period hard

57:54

stop. But yeah, do you think having

57:56

a boyfriend suck?

57:57

Yeah?

57:58

I mean most because the boyfriends suck.

58:00

I it's there's

58:03

just I don't I guess I need to create

58:06

some things that maybe I need. That's

58:08

what it always seems like. I don't.

58:10

There's nothing I really need. So then you

58:12

know the boyfriend's there and he's like what's my job?

58:14

And I'm like, just be cool and hang out

58:17

and eat snacks, and they seem to want

58:19

like more of a job, you know, And

58:21

so then I just have someone in my space who's annoying

58:24

me.

58:25

Well, you know, the idea that you need to have

58:27

a need for them to be in your life,

58:29

right is again, like that's what.

58:31

I'm trying to tell them. I go, you don't. You don't.

58:33

There's not a job. This is like a

58:35

luxury. It's a relationship.

58:37

Should be a cherry on to an already great life.

58:40

You've agreed because.

58:42

Yourself, I don't. I certainly don't want another

58:44

job, Like I don't want girlfriends to feel like an occupation.

58:47

I have an occupation, right it comed Yeah,

58:50

I don't need enough. I don't need a second one.

58:52

Well, I think when when we

58:54

say that to someone, especially for a

58:57

man who doesn't feel like they have a place,

58:59

because I think there's a that idea

59:01

of I don't need a man, which you know,

59:03

I think is really sourced from the pain of

59:05

the real.

59:07

Of men sucking. No.

59:10

But truthfully, like the relational dynamics

59:12

that were abusive, that were financially

59:14

abusive, we you know, I'm forty five.

59:16

So I look up my I look at society

59:19

when I grew up, and that was really when divorce

59:21

really increased, especially in nineteen eighty

59:23

six in the US, because that's when separation

59:26

went from three years to one year. So all

59:28

of a sudden, there was this huge wave of women

59:31

especially who were like, well, three

59:33

years is a lot to be separated before a divorce.

59:35

I could do one year. So divorce

59:38

actually skyrocketed in eighty six. It originally

59:40

skyrocketed with I mean, you had this

59:42

sexual revolution, you had the feminist revolution,

59:44

so you had all these movements at the exact

59:46

same time that the Divorce Act went in, and

59:48

that was the first wave, but then this

59:51

was the second wave. And so I think, what we're

59:54

we're healing is this residue from

59:56

relational dynamics that especially occurred in our

59:58

own parents and maybe for some younger

1:00:00

people now today their grandparents, where

1:00:03

the woman did not have autonomy sovereignty.

1:00:06

Because if you think about it.

1:00:07

If you're if you

1:00:09

depend on your relationship for

1:00:11

financial security,

1:00:14

that means you depend on your relationship

1:00:16

for your safety. So that means

1:00:18

if you are to rock the boat, you

1:00:21

rock.

1:00:22

Your survival form

1:00:25

feels a childhood part two, you

1:00:27

know, because it's like the same You're like, this is just

1:00:29

the same dynamic that you know you have when

1:00:31

you're a.

1:00:32

Child, right, And

1:00:34

so it's like, how as because

1:00:37

that power dynamic can exist, right, Like, let's

1:00:39

say I was dating a woman who was the breadwinner.

1:00:42

The power dynamic will exist if she's paying

1:00:45

more things. So we're not saying that's

1:00:47

wrong. But in the book, what we say

1:00:49

is bring forward what

1:00:52

are the implicit contracts

1:00:54

of power dynamic so that

1:00:56

we can if I'm paying, if she's

1:00:58

paying, how does that make me feel?

1:01:01

What does that make me?

1:01:02

Not talk about because you

1:01:04

know, Harriet Lerner talks about this like she's

1:01:07

the best.

1:01:08

And she was saying that because

1:01:11

I said to her, why do more women?

1:01:13

I got eighty five percent of my following as women, And

1:01:16

I was like, why do more.

1:01:17

Women consume relational content?

1:01:18

And she said, because the subordinate

1:01:21

group always needs to learn the needs

1:01:23

and nuances of the dominant group

1:01:25

for survival, So like women

1:01:27

need to learn how to be emotional ninjas

1:01:29

so they don't die. And I was like,

1:01:32

wow, that's really interesting. And

1:01:35

so we think about like what you were saying

1:01:37

about not wanting a boyfriend

1:01:39

who's a project like where they need

1:01:41

to have something to do, And I think about

1:01:43

how for a lot of men, our

1:01:46

value is in the doing. It's in like providing,

1:01:49

oh for sure. So it's like, if I'm not providing

1:01:51

money or rent

1:01:54

or food or whatever it is, how

1:01:57

else can I be

1:01:59

needed? And what we equate

1:02:02

the rebellion from these self

1:02:04

abandoning relationships where women didn't have voices,

1:02:07

and that could be true of other dynamics. It's

1:02:09

like the response is usually

1:02:11

I don't need anybody, right, And

1:02:13

we're saying it's actually super healthy

1:02:16

to be needed and need. It's just that

1:02:18

we don't trust when we

1:02:20

need someone because it's like when someone's afraid

1:02:22

of commitment, I would say, you're not afraid of

1:02:24

commitment, you're afraid of what commitment

1:02:27

leads to.

1:02:27

You already have a story. You don't trust yourself,

1:02:29

you don't trust others.

1:02:31

So it's like, what we really want

1:02:33

to look at is one type of what

1:02:35

type of people are we drawing into our lives,

1:02:38

and can we actually

1:02:40

offer vulnerabilities and needs that

1:02:43

they could attend to that are

1:02:45

not financially based, that are not a problem,

1:02:48

like you're not fixing something, but

1:02:50

you're actually, you know, maybe rubbing

1:02:52

my.

1:02:52

Feet or like just being there for the person,

1:02:55

right and checking in.

1:02:56

And like my wife, she whenever she

1:02:58

opens a jar, she's like, oh,

1:03:01

can you open this? And I'm like, I

1:03:03

know she can open jars, but I'm

1:03:05

in charge of her access to peanut butter. That

1:03:08

is, I'll take it, right.

1:03:10

See, I was actually gonna bring up something very similar because

1:03:12

like a lot of women's actual like have have recommended

1:03:15

me, like my female friends have like basically recommended

1:03:17

like creating jobs that I

1:03:19

can do myself to make

1:03:21

the men in my life feel needed.

1:03:24

And while I

1:03:26

I'm not going to cause play like it's

1:03:30

ridiculous to

1:03:32

me that says the man's self worse's

1:03:35

wrapped up in providing providing

1:03:38

a thing, of course.

1:03:39

And then and then the next part of this

1:03:41

thought, which I think is just maybe what you're saying

1:03:43

is, well, then it's just more placating

1:03:46

to men, right. So imagine

1:03:48

if instead of that we oriented

1:03:50

to it from actually

1:03:53

not trying to carry everything ourselves, right,

1:03:56

Because the opposite.

1:03:57

Of a dependent is an

1:04:00

independent.

1:04:00

And so yeah, I mean you see this politically too, It's

1:04:02

like collectivism versus individuated.

1:04:05

It's like relationships either we

1:04:07

either abandon relationship

1:04:09

for ourselves or abandon ourselves for a relationship.

1:04:12

And I'm saying, how do you be a self and

1:04:15

be with another? And where

1:04:17

the intention not cause playing

1:04:19

because I agree with you, like not pretending

1:04:22

I have I need to be saved in.

1:04:23

A castle now it's so fake, it's bullshit.

1:04:25

So instead it's like, what are things that I

1:04:27

carry that I actually am so used

1:04:29

to carrying on my own that

1:04:32

I can now trust

1:04:34

someone else to support me with which

1:04:36

I'm guilty of this. I'm the like I got everything

1:04:39

and then I'm like, oh, like buried.

1:04:43

Talk to me.

1:04:43

I'm busy, and you're like, Jesus Christ, that's

1:04:46

it.

1:04:47

And that's I mean, that's self abandonment, that's codependency,

1:04:50

that's it.

1:04:50

It's like, I'm going to do everything, so.

1:04:52

How do you like? I know, one of the things I was super

1:04:54

codependent, and I'm in a relationship now that started

1:04:57

off super like toxic dynamic

1:04:59

because I was going after somebody who was like no,

1:05:02

I'm like but yeah, and

1:05:04

then we are in a really healthy, loving,

1:05:06

beautiful relationship. And one of the things that I with

1:05:08

trick that I used was like, if this relationship

1:05:11

ends, it's okay, You'll be fine,

1:05:13

You'll be the same person you were, and like just

1:05:16

reminding myself of that because I think back to my

1:05:18

previous relationships and it was this thing

1:05:20

of like what will I do if this

1:05:22

if this world that we've built in, the

1:05:24

safety nest that I've built in this relationship

1:05:27

goes away, Like I'll die and

1:05:29

it's like oof. So just reminding yourself being

1:05:31

comfortable with uncomfortable, you know, uncomfortable

1:05:33

outcomes.

1:05:34

I think that's essential. It's like you're

1:05:36

still a self regardless of your relationship.

1:05:39

Step.

1:05:39

Yeah, And that was the same for me, you know, formally

1:05:41

in breakups, I was like, you know, I

1:05:44

would ruminate and be like, oh my god, I

1:05:46

miss I need them back. But

1:05:48

it was it wasn't that. It was that I needed

1:05:51

to finally stand on my own two feet and build

1:05:53

a life that was truly about cultivating

1:05:55

the most powerful version of me, you

1:06:03

know, the most stepping into my fullest purpose,

1:06:05

my potential, and not sourcing

1:06:07

that from my relationship. I think for a lot of

1:06:09

us, our relationships become our lives

1:06:11

and then we lose them and we lose everything.

1:06:14

Well, it's you know, it's so tricky

1:06:17

when you get in, when you enter, when you fall in love with

1:06:19

somebody, the chemicals that happen

1:06:21

in your body, The sky

1:06:23

is bluer, the birds are chirping

1:06:25

louder every even if you're having a bad

1:06:27

day. You don't give a fuck, and like that, that

1:06:30

way of living and that kind of feeling. It's

1:06:32

like, who wouldn't want that? All right

1:06:35

the time?

1:06:35

And there's drugs trying to get that.

1:06:37

Yeah, and when and when it feels like it's being compromised

1:06:39

or maybe it's not leading, and you're like, whoa, what the fuck?

1:06:41

And we act like heroin addicts, it's

1:06:43

like, that's that's tricky. The feelings

1:06:46

that happen when you first start a relationship

1:06:48

or not misleading, but

1:06:51

they make it difficult.

1:06:52

Yeah. I remember it was Ramdas who said that

1:06:54

we get lost in the idea of

1:06:57

the object of love, like we confuse

1:06:59

falling in life with being in love, and

1:07:02

huh, yeah, I really love it when I heard that,

1:07:04

because it just reminded me so many times I've been

1:07:07

in the honeymoon phase. And what

1:07:09

I love what rom DAWs talked about is that the

1:07:12

experience let's say it's meditation or drugs

1:07:15

or LSD or mushrooms or love. We

1:07:17

think that that experience is

1:07:20

only accessed through that, right,

1:07:23

But he's saying what it does is

1:07:25

it reminds you that it lives within you.

1:07:27

So what feeling is in your body exactly?

1:07:29

So you think the object is what

1:07:31

provides you love. Like I remember working with this

1:07:34

woman is like I'm just more funny when I'm

1:07:36

in relationships, and I was like,

1:07:38

well.

1:07:38

You have that funny in you, girl, exactly.

1:07:41

But what they just wake up with you is a type

1:07:43

of joy and access to play,

1:07:46

right, And it's like.

1:07:48

In your house to like, different people

1:07:50

bring out different sides. I think this goes for

1:07:52

for everybody, Like different people bring out different sides

1:07:54

of you, right, and like a romantic partner. But

1:07:57

it's like, how do you bring out that side? Like

1:07:59

some people I'm really attracted to hanging

1:08:01

out with because I like who I am around them, which

1:08:03

is a little selfish, but hopefully they like who

1:08:05

they are around me and we

1:08:07

can both be selfish about it. But how do you bring

1:08:10

that side of yourself out by

1:08:12

yourself? Man?

1:08:15

A mystery?

1:08:16

I was like, that's so funny because like, for me, relationship

1:08:19

brings out my bitch

1:08:21

monster. So I'm like, as long

1:08:23

as I'm not in a relationship, I'm great.

1:08:25

Like I'm the best I've ever been.

1:08:27

Now. I haven't had sex and months, haven't drank, didn't

1:08:30

do anything really fun, nothing's

1:08:32

really going well, you know truly,

1:08:35

but I feel great like this like

1:08:37

birds and chirping thing that we're talking about,

1:08:39

Like, I feel that now.

1:08:40

Because you're acting authentic, yeah, to

1:08:43

who you are just hanging out? Well, I mean I

1:08:45

can kind of always doing that, but sometimes I.

1:08:46

Do things that like I just sometimes it's just

1:08:48

like, really I just need less.

1:08:50

People in my life. Well,

1:08:52

you know, sometimes I found for me too. It's

1:08:54

like, as you were saying, you're around

1:08:56

some people who bring you alive. Yeah,

1:08:58

you know, and I really In

1:09:00

the book, we talk about creating a container

1:09:03

for yourself.

1:09:04

Which is how do you do that?

1:09:05

Yeah? Where you actually do not You actually

1:09:08

go into an intentional space, you know, much

1:09:10

like a cocoon where you're like the intention

1:09:12

of this is to get to know myself. Like you think

1:09:14

about what you're talking about. If we're

1:09:17

living from the neck up, we're not in

1:09:19

contact with what our body is telling

1:09:21

us, maybe because we had to disassociate and

1:09:24

learn to do that as a kid. So the container,

1:09:26

what we're talking about, is really thawing out the nervous

1:09:28

system where colors are

1:09:30

brighter and birds are louder. And

1:09:34

what you do what I usually recommend

1:09:36

to people, which I think is it's funny how people

1:09:38

respond to it. But you say, like,

1:09:41

no engagement at all

1:09:43

with whatever sex you're attracted

1:09:45

to, so you actually there's

1:09:48

no sexting, no texting, no

1:09:50

nothing, and you do that for three

1:09:52

months and usually

1:09:55

people are.

1:09:55

Like right, right,

1:09:57

even a male friend.

1:09:59

If you're sourcing from them, yes, oh okay.

1:10:01

So if you know that, you're like you get

1:10:04

a buzz, like you get affirmation of your

1:10:06

hotness, of your so I can talk to my brother,

1:10:08

you can talk to your brother anyone.

1:10:11

Dog my dog, Yeah

1:10:13

I have an ill dog. Yeah, okay, I

1:10:15

have to give them away from only

1:10:17

a you sour from.

1:10:20

Dogs?

1:10:20

Are

1:10:20

they're

1:10:24

so good for your nervous system? Yeah?

1:10:27

For regulation? Yeah, but yeah, the container.

1:10:29

I was working with this woman where she was like, three months

1:10:31

sounds good, and then as it was coming she.

1:10:33

Was like, I could do a month.

1:10:34

Yeah, And I'm like, you're negotiating

1:10:36

with what's possible for you, Like you're

1:10:39

already saying I can't do that,

1:10:41

but you can, and it's actually true you

1:10:44

can't.

1:10:44

I mean, I'm giddy at she's just touching all my

1:10:46

male friends being like sorry, I can't talk

1:10:49

for three months. Like that sounds.

1:10:51

Great, sounds like you're really in the cocoon.

1:10:54

That sounds sick.

1:10:55

Well, because there men, men drain

1:10:57

me in a way that women don't. You know, It's

1:10:59

like there's a lot of more reciprocity and female

1:11:02

friendships. My best friend is as

1:11:04

a man, he's gay, but there's reciprocity

1:11:07

there, so that's no problem.

1:11:09

Yeah, I think when any relationship lacks

1:11:11

reciprocity, yeah, for sure.

1:11:13

And of course it's like we have to say

1:11:16

no, we have to request that the relationship

1:11:18

becomes balanced yeah or no

1:11:20

yes, And so it's like, of course, what

1:11:22

a great model of like why

1:11:25

would we invest in things that don't invest

1:11:27

in us?

1:11:28

Right?

1:11:28

But if we're so used to being the one who does

1:11:31

all that maintain Like I think about

1:11:33

the people that if you never texted them, they'd never

1:11:35

text you, right, or like that's.

1:11:37

Me, I would never text anyone. No one would ever hear.

1:11:40

I'm guilty of that.

1:11:41

You probably get a lot of messages I hear people

1:11:44

who are creators.

1:11:45

Which there's such a poll.

1:11:46

Yeah, Like, I just don't reach out like I always

1:11:49

respond though, Yeah.

1:11:50

You do, see I always respond.

1:11:52

I don't respond.

1:11:54

I'm a bad Well, actually I'm not a bad texture.

1:11:56

I just don't like texting.

1:11:57

I don't either.

1:11:58

Yes, Like I think about social media and

1:12:00

I'm like, shit is so heavy.

1:12:02

Yes, And it's like, especially if you're putting out

1:12:04

your creativity into the world, much like you guys

1:12:07

do in many different ways. Yeah, it's

1:12:09

just because I don't think you're designed to get that

1:12:11

much feedback.

1:12:12

No, we're not. There's too much stimulus. It's

1:12:14

too much, too much information. And

1:12:16

they're also like, it's really starting to depress me

1:12:18

walking around New York City. Not that I don't

1:12:20

do this, because I do, but just you

1:12:23

look around and there's maybe one hundred

1:12:25

people that you can physically see in that second,

1:12:27

and they're all looking at their phones,

1:12:29

and you're like, Dude, this isn't good.

1:12:32

Guys.

1:12:32

Look up, You're in one of the greatest cities in the world.

1:12:34

Just fucking look up. Do your email at home?

1:12:36

Like I had someone almost walk in at Oh.

1:12:38

That happens all the time.

1:12:39

I just feel like that people have I don't like being

1:12:42

accessible twenty four hours a day.

1:12:44

That's what really bothers me, and I really

1:12:47

I remember getting my mom wanting

1:12:49

me to have a cell phone in high school,

1:12:51

like for safety, obviously, and I cried

1:12:54

and I fought her on it. I'm the only kid I've

1:12:56

ever heard of who've cried not to get a

1:12:58

cell phone.

1:12:58

Yeah.

1:12:59

And then when I and then when I when

1:13:01

I was an adult at my first like

1:13:03

really really big serious job, which was

1:13:06

in talent management, my

1:13:08

boss gave me a BlackBerry for Christmas, obviously

1:13:10

so he could reach out to me more. And I

1:13:12

cried again.

1:13:13

I remember blacky BT.

1:13:14

The time I've gotten a fucking device where people can access

1:13:17

him more.

1:13:17

My reaction is to

1:13:19

cry, and I'm not like a big crier, So

1:13:22

this is like a big reaction from

1:13:24

me. Yeah.

1:13:25

Yeah, Well you think about what your body's actually

1:13:27

telling you.

1:13:27

Yeah.

1:13:27

It is like I think for a lot of us,

1:13:30

this is me projecting too, is that I

1:13:33

didn't know how to take

1:13:35

all that energy and not take it

1:13:37

in you know, yeah, lot of ways, because

1:13:39

I am very sensitive. I'm

1:13:42

very empathetic, but I also lacked

1:13:44

boundaries and energetic boundaries.

1:13:46

I was watching this I forget his name.

1:13:48

But I was watching a video the other day about

1:13:50

creative burnout and they were saying

1:13:52

the guy, I think he's a professor

1:13:55

at Harvard, he was saying that the

1:13:58

people who naturally are in creative are arts

1:14:00

are people who overtly self express

1:14:03

So burnout is a result of

1:14:05

actually people who go into it

1:14:07

are already biased to burn out because

1:14:09

of all the emotional processing and expressing.

1:14:12

And I thought, that's really interesting that we've,

1:14:15

like I think in my work I really monetized

1:14:17

my codependency. I was like, oh,

1:14:19

I want to help people, I'll just create a brand and

1:14:21

get paid. And so what

1:14:23

had to change was that I no longer needed

1:14:26

to source from it because otherwise,

1:14:28

and I think most people in caretaking

1:14:30

sort of roles coaches, therapists, dieticians,

1:14:33

doctors, you know, all the name them

1:14:36

are oriented their job because as kids,

1:14:38

they took care of someone, they managed the

1:14:41

energetics of the home, and so they have a natural

1:14:43

skill set that's a survival

1:14:46

strategy that can become a superpower

1:14:48

when it's no longer sourcing a

1:14:50

need to be needed. So

1:14:52

even though you're getting paid to help

1:14:55

somebody, there's still a part of you that

1:14:57

needs the validation of the helping. So

1:14:59

there's still a book into the person

1:15:01

you're serving.

1:15:02

Well yeah, yeah, but it's like helping,

1:15:05

helping is it one type of energy

1:15:08

attached to it. Serving is a different type

1:15:10

of like serving people is a different

1:15:12

type like helping implies. I was reading a quote

1:15:14

that it's like helping imply something is broken or someone

1:15:16

is broken. The fixing

1:15:19

and helping they have they're both negative energies.

1:15:21

They're they're called they're a little separate fixing and helping.

1:15:23

But then serving, how could I be of service to

1:15:25

you? Is like a totally different energy.

1:15:27

It sounds unconditional. You're right because

1:15:29

in that helping.

1:15:30

Anything return because I don't need you to give me something

1:15:32

in order for me to go.

1:15:33

I'm glad I did that right, Right,

1:15:35

it's reinforcing the other person then has.

1:15:37

To identify as broken. Yeah, yeah, good

1:15:39

point.

1:15:40

Yeah, I would be curious in

1:15:42

stand up comedy, how

1:15:44

do you, I mean, how

1:15:47

do you separate yourself from because

1:15:49

the feedback also allows you to shape

1:15:51

what you create.

1:15:52

Yeah, but also sure.

1:15:53

Yeah, if it doesn't get a laugh, you're like, all right, back

1:15:55

to the draw. You just take your emotions out of it. Yeah,

1:15:58

you can't wrap yourself worse up

1:16:00

in how your set was. That took me personally

1:16:02

a long time.

1:16:03

How long does that take?

1:16:05

You get used to it, because then you see other comics

1:16:08

do well on stage and then the audience is like, we don't

1:16:10

like them, or you see a comic that you're

1:16:12

like, this guy sucks and the audience loves it, and you're

1:16:14

like, okay, so you can

1:16:16

safely take your emotions out of how you did.

1:16:19

It's not it's practice.

1:16:21

Yeah, just witnessing other people like

1:16:23

either like have different experiences with

1:16:25

audiences. For me, that's that's what helps a little.

1:16:27

Fy it is it different being a woman in comedy?

1:16:30

Yeah? Yeah for sure. I mean I

1:16:32

like it because you're in the minority. So there's something

1:16:34

unique about you right away, which is cool. Not I

1:16:36

mean, now there's just so many much anymore. Yeah,

1:16:39

you go to any of the clubs in New York, there's I mean the lineup white

1:16:41

women really not, that's not but

1:16:44

yeah, we started it felt like there was some some type

1:16:47

of unique thing. But yeah, it's not. I mean I

1:16:49

think with most women it's like you get you'll get a spot,

1:16:51

maybe sooner than you're ready for it, because

1:16:53

the booker wants to fuck you. And then if you're

1:16:56

the only woman on the lineup and you're you're a little

1:16:58

bit of a weak sauce and everyone's like, well it's women

1:17:00

aren't fully and it's like, well, no, it's just the

1:17:02

book. I wanted to fuck her and she any booked her

1:17:04

and then she said yeah, as young as I know, you

1:17:06

know, so that happens.

1:17:07

But I also felt I think you have to be like

1:17:09

in your material, like there are some things that

1:17:11

you can see, like a charming man can

1:17:13

get away with that even no matter how charming

1:17:16

you are as a woman, like topics that you can't.

1:17:18

You have to have like more likable, palatable

1:17:21

topics.

1:17:22

And not as crass or not

1:17:25

as you can be.

1:17:26

Crass, but only sexually. So it's just so funny

1:17:28

to me because people, you know, it's like it's almost

1:17:30

like a hack complaint at this point, especially online,

1:17:32

that women comedians talk too much about

1:17:34

sex, But like I challenge anyone to

1:17:37

try and go and talk about something that is

1:17:40

interesting or high level that not

1:17:43

that doesn't have to do with sex, but like it's like politically

1:17:45

jarring or something like that.

1:17:46

Try and talk about it and see how it goes. It's not going

1:17:48

to go well, right.

1:17:49

People are on people expect

1:17:52

women to be a certain way and want

1:17:54

to hear certain things from them, And

1:17:56

I think, like step one is hearing

1:18:00

graphic sex stuff from them, But we haven't

1:18:02

gotten to step two yet, you know, like

1:18:04

in the likability category.

1:18:07

Is that wild?

1:18:08

Because you think that's very similar

1:18:10

to like the rules we take on relationally

1:18:12

what we expect from women and don't do

1:18:15

too much too emotional to a survey, right,

1:18:18

But then we also are like, don't

1:18:20

be too sexual, but if you're a comic, please

1:18:23

talk about sex, because that's how that's

1:18:25

the acceptable. It's such a mind weird, yeah,

1:18:27

because it's like, no matter you're not, you can't.

1:18:30

You can't well when you.

1:18:31

Stop warning exactly, the only way you win is

1:18:34

you have to be fiercely authentic to yourself.

1:18:36

I think it's such a I would saying to you guys before we hit

1:18:38

record that like what an opportunity

1:18:41

to both like on a large level, be empathic

1:18:43

to a space like you have to be receiving

1:18:45

feedback constantly. Oh yeah, and then you

1:18:47

have to be shifting delivery constantly,

1:18:50

so you become a master communicator.

1:18:51

Yeah. Absolutely, and you realize, like, wow,

1:18:54

saying this word in this different of a tone

1:18:56

makes the joke completely different.

1:18:58

Yeah.

1:18:58

I find for me too, that humor

1:19:01

was always a way that I deflected intimacy.

1:19:04

But then I also see that humor,

1:19:06

when.

1:19:06

Used it can be very vulnerable too,

1:19:08

like when you were when you're when your partner jokes

1:19:10

about something where you're like, uh

1:19:13

uh, you know, if you had a fight and

1:19:15

then somebody is willing to like throw the first joke in

1:19:17

and you're like, that's nice, Okay, we can put

1:19:19

our armor down, right.

1:19:21

It's one of the top qualities of successful couples,

1:19:23

is humor.

1:19:24

Oh really that's good.

1:19:25

Yeah, thank god.

1:19:26

In the distance, I just we just we just laugh

1:19:28

until we cry all day. I love it.

1:19:30

That's so fun.

1:19:30

Do you get I wanted to ask you if you still

1:19:33

get triggered by your wife?

1:19:35

Oh yeah, and.

1:19:36

What what does that look like? And what do you do? Like, what is it

1:19:39

like? What something that she does or says that triggers

1:19:41

you? And then what is what happens

1:19:43

behind the curtains of your brain of

1:19:45

how you get out of it.

1:19:47

Yeah, we talk about triggers in the book. The

1:19:50

context we also go into is good triggers.

1:19:52

So when we think about triggers, we often

1:19:54

think about you know, like one

1:19:56

that does for me is my wife giving me feedback.

1:19:59

That's is that any kind Yeah,

1:20:03

any solicitor unsolicited?

1:20:05

Yeah, because my you want to be perfect.

1:20:07

Well, I just like, if I'm getting feedback,

1:20:10

it means I wasn't good.

1:20:11

Yeah, that's the thought. So I I

1:20:14

you get butt hurt. Yeah, well there's this thought.

1:20:16

Yeah, there's well, and there's this

1:20:18

idea that you're healed when the triggers are done.

1:20:21

But actually that's not true. It's just what we do

1:20:23

with triggers that changes. So my trigger is

1:20:25

just a radar that's saying,

1:20:27

hey, we've been in this experience before, and

1:20:30

last time, you felt really bad about your

1:20:32

you know, when you were a kid, you didn't feel like you were enough.

1:20:35

So when I get feedback, I love it

1:20:37

because I'm like able to observe that

1:20:39

and then breathe into it and then ask questions.

1:20:42

Because the antidote to defensiveness

1:20:44

is actually curiosity.

1:20:46

Ooh, I like that. Yeah.

1:20:47

So if someone if your natural response

1:20:50

is to inflame, get defensive, make

1:20:52

it about the other person, then what

1:20:54

we actually would say is tell me more about

1:20:56

what you're saying, or I can see some truth

1:20:59

in what you're saying.

1:21:00

And I would say.

1:21:01

Ninety nine point nine percent of the time, my wife

1:21:03

is speaking one hundred percent truth, Okay,

1:21:05

And I'm curious, yeah, because everything she does

1:21:08

is with a positive intention of like me

1:21:10

seeing something.

1:21:11

Yeah, I've had to remind myself. I'm like, your partner

1:21:13

is not against you on your team

1:21:16

because I'm like, no, you're gonna fuck it. You're gonna fuck

1:21:18

me.

1:21:18

You're gonna fuck me.

1:21:19

In any minute. It's like, what an exhausting, What

1:21:21

an exhausting place to be all the time?

1:21:23

It's absolutely and so that trigger

1:21:26

I now am able to breathe into it

1:21:28

as always ask questions. But

1:21:30

most of the time, and if not, we are very

1:21:32

much about repair. So like, if I don't

1:21:35

respond, how I maybe could have my best

1:21:37

I come back and I'm like, I'm sorry, I could have done

1:21:39

that better. She's really I would say, she's usually

1:21:41

first to return. She's

1:21:43

definitely models that better than I do.

1:21:46

But that's the thing is like the the like

1:21:49

one of the principles we talk about in the book is

1:21:51

is to have positive regard for each other and

1:21:54

also that if something's coming up

1:21:56

for one of us, it's coming up for both of us.

1:21:58

We just don't know yet.

1:21:59

Oh that's interesting.

1:22:00

Yeah, that we honor whatever

1:22:02

is coming up for each person as needing.

1:22:04

To come up for the relationship.

1:22:06

Huh.

1:22:06

Yeah, So there's no longer do you want to avoid subjects,

1:22:09

right, because you realize that the team,

1:22:12

right, and the and the relationship needs to work

1:22:14

with this material right, So we actually

1:22:16

see that the frictions of our relationship are actually

1:22:18

allowing us both to grow. And we just had

1:22:20

a kid, so you know, it's it's like amplified

1:22:22

because you have less sleep you have and

1:22:25

you know my that I mentioned stan tecam

1:22:27

before he wrote a book called The Baby Bomb and

1:22:29

he was talking. I interviewed him

1:22:31

and he said to me that that everything

1:22:34

that comes up as a new parent is just stuff that wasn't

1:22:36

resolved yet from prior to being a parent.

1:22:39

And I was like, oh, beautiful, morse.

1:22:41

I got to learn more lessons, Yeah, exactly.

1:22:44

The good trigger's part is that we can actually

1:22:46

be triggered by good stuff like vulnerability,

1:22:48

openness, reliability, safety,

1:22:51

trust, And so it's recognizing

1:22:54

that, hey, like we will sabotage

1:22:56

or push away what we actually

1:22:58

long for because the last time we were

1:23:01

in relationship to that thing, we were really hurturt.

1:23:03

Yeah, so you know, I always

1:23:05

think that it's painfully ironic that where

1:23:09

the thing we want most wells, you know,

1:23:11

love is also where the thing

1:23:13

we most want to avoid lives. And it's almost

1:23:15

this strange humor,

1:23:19

a dark humor, but that requires us to

1:23:21

walk towards it, to walk towards it, you know.

1:23:24

Yeah, there's a mutuality to that.

1:23:26

For feedback, I

1:23:29

think a lot of people struggle with that. And

1:23:31

I hear what you're what you're saying responding

1:23:34

with curiosity I think is great advice.

1:23:36

But what do you do with a partner who.

1:23:39

Is like I think there's a time and a place

1:23:41

for feedback, And if you're someone who's constantly

1:23:43

giving or constantly like expected to

1:23:45

receive feedback, no one is living

1:23:48

perfectly at any time, Like,

1:23:50

how do you convey to someone be like I

1:23:52

don't need fucking constant nos,

1:23:55

right, you know, I mean, I think there's a time and a space for it. But if

1:23:57

someone's that's that's that's getting into nagging

1:23:59

territory, you know.

1:24:00

All. Yeah, well that's a great point because

1:24:02

there is a delineation between criticism

1:24:04

and feedback. So

1:24:07

a lot of people learn to connect

1:24:09

through criticism.

1:24:10

Oh do they mark? They do?

1:24:12

Right?

1:24:13

God?

1:24:13

And like the person you're talking about is like constantly

1:24:16

giving feedback. What they're really trying to do is

1:24:18

connect, probably what they

1:24:20

learn from a parent.

1:24:21

Yeah, And it sucks because it's like the thing

1:24:24

that you're doing to try to connect makes

1:24:26

me want to run away and go to the grave

1:24:28

without ever seeing.

1:24:29

You again, right, because it's like all you're doing

1:24:31

is reminding me that I never do anything.

1:24:33

Yeah.

1:24:34

Right.

1:24:34

So I think one of the parts of that is saying

1:24:37

like giving that feedback

1:24:40

to the person, saying like, hey, can you

1:24:42

start to connect with me through positive experiences?

1:24:45

And also can

1:24:47

you try to let me win like acknowledge

1:24:49

things, because a lot of the times we don't

1:24:51

let our partner win because if they win,

1:24:54

then we have vulnerability and closeness. If I'm

1:24:56

constantly nagging them, then

1:24:58

I get to be the one who's seeing all that problem, so

1:25:00

I don't have a problem. So it's the focus

1:25:02

is on them, and they then

1:25:05

are constantly feeling like they suck. So

1:25:08

it's creating a relational dynamic where I'm

1:25:10

in power and you're in the problem.

1:25:13

That's also good because it feels like a lot of times I think

1:25:15

people feel like when their partner is winning, the

1:25:17

winning is somehow distancing

1:25:19

their partner from that like this, this

1:25:22

is creating a space because now you you

1:25:24

are now better and I

1:25:26

am worse when in reality,

1:25:28

and I mean like this is like kind of like the anti antithesis

1:25:31

of how I think genuinely, but I truly do

1:25:33

feel like when I'm dating

1:25:35

someone you know who's I actually like

1:25:38

that it's like it's a team effort

1:25:40

and I really in my soul believe when

1:25:42

they win, I'm winning, right, And you

1:25:44

know, the the reverse has been

1:25:47

a lot harder to sell though that's

1:25:49

just because of like that's more like a

1:25:51

heterosexual female male dynamic.

1:25:53

Though with the women winning.

1:25:56

That's with

1:25:59

powerful women, because well, when we're

1:26:01

still operating on things.

1:26:03

Like do I text back, do I not do it?

1:26:04

Call? Sure, we're still thinking about

1:26:06

like the upper hand. As soon as

1:26:09

you exactly, as soon as you're in the power dynamic

1:26:11

game. You're recognizing that power

1:26:13

is somehow you're thinking power

1:26:16

is finite, right, And what you're

1:26:18

saying, which I love, is that your

1:26:21

partner becoming powerful doesn't

1:26:23

make you less powerful in unless some

1:26:25

way you gain power by their smallness.

1:26:28

Oh yeah, so it's making a whole it's to me, it's I'm

1:26:30

just thinking of it like the whole unit now has more

1:26:32

value.

1:26:33

Way more like I don't.

1:26:35

It's yeah, I'm like, how are we not seeing

1:26:37

it this way?

1:26:38

Well if men?

1:26:40

And I think there's pointing to a really important

1:26:42

thing that men need to learn today, which

1:26:45

I think when women become powerful

1:26:47

sometimes that can be a protective mechanism which

1:26:49

makes total sense, or retaliation, but

1:26:52

it's like can they soften and still be met

1:26:54

eye to eye? And then can men

1:26:56

allow a woman to be powerful without thinking

1:26:58

in some way they don't have control? Remember

1:27:00

these unconscious hooks I'm talking about. If

1:27:03

my woman can pay for all her things and take

1:27:05

care of herself, who am I?

1:27:07

Oh you're a self without that? So you have to

1:27:09

grow and learn that.

1:27:11

And that's that for us men that's

1:27:13

in the heterosexual dynamic is really

1:27:15

important to learn. I mean, these happen in any

1:27:18

relationship dynamic, these power shifts

1:27:20

and like how do I use money, how

1:27:22

do I use sex?

1:27:23

How do I use all these things?

1:27:25

But I think for men especially, it's learning

1:27:27

that having a powerful woman who got

1:27:29

who has full access to her voice

1:27:32

actually is in service of you if

1:27:35

you can handle what she's telling you right.

1:27:37

Well, for sure, nothing's more confident than seeing like

1:27:39

a guy a guy kind of just like calmly like

1:27:42

let their baby do their thing. Now

1:27:44

you see it, I mean obviously like to actually

1:27:46

see it.

1:27:47

You see it.

1:27:47

Sometimes I add an award show if you actually want to like visualize

1:27:50

it. But yeah, like I love watching

1:27:52

that in a celebrity dynamic where there's like

1:27:54

maybe like a much even you know,

1:27:57

this is just a hack example at this point, but even with

1:27:59

like a travel Kelsey and Taylor Swift

1:28:01

obviously they're both famous, but Taylor Swift is way

1:28:03

way more famous. So it's even just

1:28:06

watch him just kind of like let

1:28:08

her exist and

1:28:10

and do her thing and not try to like

1:28:13

out tailor her or something.

1:28:15

It's very and you get smashed by the Swift

1:28:17

is also you'd become an album, you'd

1:28:19

become a top album.

1:28:22

Yeah, yeah, but I mean I just love that

1:28:24

because I mean, I was I've been thinking also for the interview

1:28:27

about what you said at the beginning when we're talking about

1:28:29

codependency, that a

1:28:31

codependent person is often not the main

1:28:33

character in their own story. And I've I've described

1:28:36

being a heterosexual woman in

1:28:39

the world as that. So often I feel like

1:28:41

we are a supporting.

1:28:42

Role in our own movie. And

1:28:45

and so.

1:28:45

I mean, it's kind of coming back to that, like how can we

1:28:49

receive love and then still be the

1:28:51

star of our own film.

1:28:52

That's that's the mountain.

1:28:54

Isn't that the I think we have to

1:28:56

live that question, you know, because it's something

1:28:59

that you're always getting in for. And

1:29:01

I think there's an important differentiation of

1:29:04

because often when people start to center themselves

1:29:07

in their lives in the relationship, who am I?

1:29:09

What do I want?

1:29:10

Especially because of relationship dynamics, you'll

1:29:12

just see that be a more challenging question for

1:29:14

a woman to begin to ask, and

1:29:17

who am I without the validation of a partner

1:29:20

of being chosen, like your worthiness

1:29:23

is innate. But there's

1:29:25

a line where we'll call that self centeredness.

1:29:28

But self centeredness is at the cost of relationship.

1:29:31

Being a centered self is not.

1:29:33

It's actually in service of a relationship. And

1:29:36

that question you're asking is like, how do we

1:29:39

how do we begin to prioritize

1:29:41

ourselves make our lives about us?

1:29:44

You know, I think about it being like

1:29:47

life on your terms. But the why

1:29:49

is in brackets, because if it's in service

1:29:52

of you, it's in service of me. And

1:29:54

where there isn't this, you have to trade.

1:29:56

And I think that's the delineation also between

1:29:59

self and compromise.

1:30:02

Yeah, compromise, Like let's say my wife

1:30:04

needed us to move somewhere because she needed

1:30:07

to do something for work or and

1:30:10

that might mean I have to compromise something

1:30:12

wherever we are, I would we

1:30:14

would work together to see, like to acknowledge

1:30:17

what I might be losing for

1:30:19

something for her to gain. But it's actually

1:30:22

in service of the unit to move

1:30:24

forward, and so that compromises

1:30:27

in service of the relationship with

1:30:29

the recognition of the lass and the

1:30:31

recognition of the gain. Self abandonment

1:30:33

is often done in silence. It often

1:30:36

precedes resentment. Resentment

1:30:38

is one hundred percent of the time, one

1:30:40

hundred ninety nine point nine one

1:30:43

hundred percent of the time because it's a reflection

1:30:45

that you're not prioritizing yourself in

1:30:47

some way.

1:30:48

And I think we're getting better at relationships now

1:30:50

to foresee the resentment. Like I've

1:30:53

certainly thought this, and I've heard I'm hearing

1:30:55

people talk about this in relationships. If I

1:30:57

agree to do this, I will resent you. That's

1:31:00

it's great thinking ahead, you know.

1:31:01

Right, right, And if anyone says

1:31:04

that to you, you should never do it. You should never

1:31:06

allow them right to do it. Yeah,

1:31:08

because resentment, if we're owning our side of

1:31:10

the street, we might say I really

1:31:12

resent you, but it's really because I didn't

1:31:14

honor me.

1:31:15

Because I sacrificed something I would didn't want to

1:31:17

sacrifice you.

1:31:18

Right, And I think like one of my most painful experiences

1:31:20

in my life was a betrayal when I was nineteen.

1:31:22

Oh I went through I got cheated on.

1:31:24

Oh And I remember much

1:31:27

later processing that experience.

1:31:29

How much later, like ten years

1:31:31

twelve years later?

1:31:32

Oh you held it in? Oh?

1:31:34

Yeah, yeah, I never. I never dealt with it. I

1:31:36

drank.

1:31:37

I did everything to avoid confronting

1:31:39

that deep pain of like when I

1:31:42

love people, they lie to me, they cheat on me, I

1:31:44

lose myself.

1:31:45

I don't stand for myself.

1:31:47

But in hindsight, what I saw was that my

1:31:49

experience of betrayal was actually

1:31:51

preceded by me not honoring myself previously.

1:31:54

And like, long story short, she

1:31:56

had gone away to school and we had said it's

1:31:58

okay to see other people, but I didn't see right.

1:32:01

And so that's the heartbreaking part that was it.

1:32:03

That was like that moment drew

1:32:05

a path to where, of course

1:32:07

a betrayal was gonna happen because I was living

1:32:10

a betrayal.

1:32:11

Right. We get a lot of emails from a

1:32:13

lot of times women who they'll

1:32:15

say, like their boyfriends or husbands or something

1:32:17

did all these things and they're still there and they're so

1:32:19

heartbroken and they're focused on the guy. But

1:32:22

I'm like, I think you're actually heartbroken because you allowed

1:32:24

yourself to do that. And that's

1:32:26

a tough pill, my gal.

1:32:28

You have to come to that truth though,

1:32:31

Yeah, Yeah, you have to because

1:32:34

if you can't, you can't change.

1:32:36

Yeah, And that like it's almost

1:32:38

like reassuring in

1:32:40

a way that like the biggest heartache

1:32:42

that I've ever experienced because I betrayed

1:32:45

myself.

1:32:45

Yeah, same, you know, that's

1:32:48

bummer, And usually that can be

1:32:50

preceded by being a kid who had to

1:32:52

betray yourself to stay safe.

1:32:54

Right, So then we split and