0:00

Welcome the Guys We Bought, the Anti

0:02

Slutshamings podcast.

0:05

I'm Christina Hutchinson, I'm Karen Fisher

0:07

and I'm ye so was friends.

0:09

Bring us to.

0:10

Its flooding, your horning and your

0:12

shame.

0:13

Hey was what?

0:14

Yes?

0:14

Okay? Talk

0:17

about fucket? What up?

0:19

Fuckers? How you doing? Where you've been? Where

0:21

a condom? Welcome to another episode of Guys

0:24

We Fucked. It's the anti slut chaming

0:26

podcast. I'm Karen Fisher, I'm Christina

0:28

Hutchinson. Welcome to the show. Make

0:30

sure have so many shows. Yes, if

0:32

you're in New York City, February first,

0:34

which is a Thursday, Karin and I are doing

0:37

Guys We Fucked Live at the MasterCard

0:39

Midnight Theater, the first one of twenty twenty

0:41

four.

0:42

It's going to be ahoot.

0:43

If you've been to any of these shows or you've watched the live

0:45

stream, you know we ain't lying.

0:47

Okay, it's so fun.

0:48

And then in Los Angeles February fourteenth,

0:50

Yes, it's Valentine's Day, Yes, it's

0:52

you know what you're in luck, doesn't matter if you got

0:54

a partner or not. You're gonna come to our show

0:57

at the Comedy store. We're headlining the main

0:59

room. We're doing the Guys We Fucked show

1:02

in the main room. It's already half sold

1:04

out, so make sure you buy your tickets. You can get

1:06

them anywhere. Our social media bios

1:08

are a great place at Guys we Fucked without

1:10

the you and Fucked. I'll cross all platforms.

1:12

I'm at Christina Hutch, I'm at Philanthropy

1:14

Gal.

1:15

And I'm at Mike Coscarelli.

1:17

Yeah, and also just go to the website. You can google

1:20

them that you can. There's so many places.

1:21

It's all. It's very

1:24

very If you want to email us,

1:26

the email address rather is

1:28

sorry about last night's show at gmail dot

1:30

com. Today's subject line electation

1:32

lovers journey to Intimacy.

1:35

Oh, I love that for you to

1:37

your current and Christina and of course Mike. I

1:40

subscribe to Luminary just to listen to you guys,

1:42

and I'm reaching out to you today to share a

1:44

personal aspect of my story in the hopes

1:46

that it might resonate with some of your listeners.

1:48

I hope that by sharing my experiences, I

1:51

can gain valuable insights and advice from

1:53

you both. As a twenty seven year old male

1:55

from Saudi Arabia. I've always been captivated

1:58

by the unique intimacy and nurturing

2:00

nature of lactation. This is not

2:02

where I thought this was going. The act

2:04

of providing sustenance and care

2:06

has always been deeply arousing to me, and

2:10

I've been fortunate enough to experience

2:12

this with a few women who have been open to this

2:14

kind of connection. However, I found

2:16

that it's becoming increasingly difficult to

2:18

find partners who are comfortable with this form

2:21

of intimacy. As I've grown older,

2:23

the longing for this particular connection has

2:26

left me feeling lonely and yearning

2:28

for a deeper bond with someone. In

2:30

my pursuit of intimacy, I've turned to

2:32

booking sex workers, not for

2:34

sexual services, but for the opportunity

2:37

to cuddle and be close to another person. I

2:39

understand that this might be considered a taboo

2:41

topic, but I believe

2:44

that the essence of your podcast lies in addressing

2:46

the unconventional and sometimes uncomfortable aspects

2:48

of sex and relationships.

2:50

You are correct, sir.

2:51

As a fan of your show, I'm eager to hear your thoughts

2:53

and advice on how to approach this topic with potential

2:56

partners without coming across a strange

2:58

or fetishistic I found

3:00

that the subject can be challenging to bring up,

3:03

and I worry about the impact it

3:05

may have on my chances of forming a serious relationship.

3:08

Furthermore, I'm interested in hearing your perspectives

3:10

on the ethics of booking sex workers for

3:13

companionship, as I believe

3:15

it's a complex and controversial virtual issue

3:17

that warrants open discussion. No, I think it's

3:19

completely normal to book a sex worker just to hug

3:21

you one hundred percent.

3:22

It makes total sense to me.

3:24

It's your honesty about choice, and that sex

3:26

worker will probably be amped.

3:28

Yeah.

3:28

My concern would just be making sure that

3:30

you can set up a boundary for yourself

3:33

where you don't then and accidentally fall in

3:35

love with a sex worker who is literally just doing

3:37

their job and does not feel the same way about you.

3:39

I think it's like, I think that's the

3:41

only danger there.

3:42

But as long as you're clear on the

3:45

boundaries that exist within the reality

3:47

that you're both living in, then I think it's totally

3:49

fine. That's why sex workers I think

3:51

to me, that's like the primary reason why sex workers

3:54

should be exist and it

3:56

should be legal because of companionship.

3:59

Yes, intimacy, emotional intimacy and physical

4:01

intimacy is so valuable for

4:03

a person's like mental and physical

4:05

health.

4:05

I'm going to go out there and say it.

4:07

This journey has led me to question whether I am emotionally

4:09

prepared for a committed relationship or

4:12

if I should seek therapy first.

4:14

Seek therapy to address this need in a healthier

4:16

way. I appreciate your honesty and openness

4:18

in discussing various topics, and I would love to hear your perspective

4:21

on my situation. I want to express my

4:23

gratitude for your work in fostering a space

4:25

for open and genuine conversations about.

4:26

Sex and sexuality.

4:28

Your podcast has helped me feel less alone yay,

4:30

and I'm informed about my own desires and I'm

4:32

confident that your insights will be valuable to others

4:35

as well.

4:35

Thank you for your time and consideration. What a

4:37

lovely great lactation email.

4:39

Also, dude, I you're

4:42

twenty seven. Props to you. You are

4:44

a twenty seven year old man who knows

4:46

himself. That is beautiful, That

4:48

is sexy, That to me is

4:51

masculinity, that's humanity. But also

4:53

like a man who knows himself and knows what he wants

4:55

and seeks it out in places,

4:58

you know, like go into a sex worker to kind of experience

5:00

emotional intimacy. I think that's very wise

5:02

decision, and good on you for

5:04

putting your needs first. I think that you will actually

5:07

be a very good partner to somebody one day.

5:09

Here here and also in expressing

5:12

your like the lactation thing, I think

5:14

if you should definitely talk about it with potential

5:16

partners, because if it makes them run away, then

5:18

maybe that's not your potential partner. Although

5:21

I know some people that have like these

5:23

more niche sexual desires

5:26

that they cannot that their

5:28

partner is not a space for them to act those out

5:30

that they kind of prefer to act it out with like a sex

5:32

worker. Obviously it's discussed

5:35

between both partners before that happens.

5:37

I don't know if that's necessarily something that

5:39

fault, like your personal desire falls

5:41

under this category. But if you're going to have a

5:43

conversation about it, which I think you should

5:45

after you've like really kind of get to known the

5:48

person and you feel like there might be a spark there,

5:50

talk about the emotional impact

5:53

that this activity has on you and the

5:55

satisfaction it brings you first before

5:57

you talk about what it actually is.

5:59

And I think that's a great way of easing in.

6:01

Yeah, I think when you talk about how your

6:03

you state, like as you've gotten older, this has

6:05

been harder to find partners open to

6:07

this, Like, well, first of all, it made me laugh because you're

6:09

only twenty seven, So what do you mean as you've gotten

6:12

older? Like what bracket of time

6:14

are we talking about here? But anyway, I

6:17

think that the only issue

6:19

is if you are leading with the lactation,

6:22

because then to me, that's

6:24

where the fetishistic mentality

6:27

comes in and where women, especially like

6:29

modern women, will start to

6:32

question what their role

6:34

is in your life, Like am iusting like

6:37

a vessel for lactation? Or

6:40

am I primarily a person who you

6:42

writer is interested in? And

6:44

then secondarily, this

6:46

is a person who is sexually interested

6:49

in, you know, and in from

6:52

an intimacy's perspective, interested

6:55

in lactation. And that is something

6:57

I am willing to do with him because

7:00

of our deep connection and how kind

7:02

he is and how he gets me on other levels. So

7:04

like, yeah, I agree with Christina, like

7:07

you definitely have to have to have a conversation with it.

7:09

But I also agree that, like I don't think

7:11

this is something that we're talking about on dates

7:13

one or two. You know, you you voice

7:16

concern that you think this is going to

7:18

stop you from being able to have

7:20

a long term relation, serious relationships,

7:23

which to me just put sent off

7:25

a little alarm that says you're

7:27

it seems like you might be prioritizing

7:30

the lactation in a way

7:32

that feels like you're fiending for

7:34

it.

7:35

Right, And that's only a.

7:37

Question that you can answer for yourself, Like is

7:39

this at the forefront of your mind

7:41

at all times? Is this the main thing

7:43

you're thinking about on a date, Like when can

7:46

I get.

7:46

To that lactation? That titty?

7:48

Because then to me, it is something that

7:50

has to be discussed with a therapist. This should not

7:52

be overtaking your mind, nor should this

7:54

be the primary Like if the primary

7:57

thing you are looking for with a partner, when you're

7:59

seeking a relationationship with a partner,

8:01

then you're not it is like a sexual thing,

8:03

then you're not seeking a relationship, You're seeking

8:05

a sexual uh interaction, And

8:08

women can sense that, right, we don't want.

8:10

To be used. It is a kink to be.

8:12

Used as a less being

8:15

used toy, which sometimes we do,

8:17

but we'll make that clear, okay, right, Or and then you're gonna

8:19

go on a different kind of website. You're not gonna go on

8:21

Hinge to use someone like a fuck toy.

8:23

You're gonna go on fields or or

8:26

something, you know, something a little bit less

8:28

traditional, right, And so those

8:30

are the things that those are. Some of these questions are questions

8:32

that you only know the answer to yourself. Like I

8:35

think, like it's a good thing to bring up in therapy

8:37

if you're already in therapy. But like, yeah, if this is

8:39

like as as a main concern

8:41

in your life as maybe it seems from

8:43

this email, then yeah, you

8:45

need to go to therapy to learn how

8:48

to use this as a part of your

8:50

relationship and a part of connecting with someone.

8:53

Not your whole life is about lactation.

8:55

Yea.

8:56

Your whole life shouldn't be nobody about anything

8:58

sexual.

8:59

Even a baby's life isn't about lactatia. Yeah,

9:01

just the first couple of years.

9:02

Yeah. Yeah. Because I think like once you form

9:05

a bond with someone, especially like

9:07

for women, like once you form form an emotional

9:09

bond with us, I think you'd be surprised at how

9:11

much fucking weird in quote shit

9:13

we're willing to do uh uh huh.

9:15

You know that's just a little alone we feel

9:18

safe, a little winking from me to you, when

9:20

we feel safe with you, when

9:23

we feel safe, loved and adored. Yeah,

9:25

oh yeah, ship you want us to you

9:27

want us to get us to do something that you don't know if we would

9:29

do. You can put on that diaper neck like a baby. Well,

9:32

we're gonna be down, yeah for real.

9:33

Yeah.

9:33

I heard a comic talking about that interestingly enough

9:36

about that he has that kink, And I'm like, yeah,

9:38

I bet like your wife is.

9:39

Going to do that with you because she loves you.

9:41

She loves you, and she does feel safe and it seems like

9:43

you have been a good partner.

9:44

Yeah, and she's like, that's why it wasn't weird when you

9:46

brought it up.

9:47

Yeah, And when and when you love your partner,

9:49

it's exciting to do something that turns then I'm on. Even

9:51

if it doesn't turn you on, right, it doesn't turn

9:54

you off exactly.

9:54

It's an exploration.

10:02

Speaking of explorations,

10:05

well, real quick, we can go through. We

10:07

have other shows in addition to February

10:09

firm show in New York City in February

10:11

fourteenth in Los Angeles. If

10:14

you're listening to this the week it comes out, that means you're

10:16

luminary subscriber.

10:17

Thank you, love you. And also if you're

10:19

in New York City.

10:19

This Saturday, January twenty, at the live premiere

10:22

of my new show Wait What Is Happening

10:24

at eight thirty PM, we got special guests

10:26

John Ronson, who wrote The Menosteric Ghots,

10:29

which dives into government programs

10:31

where they trained soldiers to walk

10:33

through walls and kill goats with their eyes. We got

10:35

an mpath named David that's going to

10:37

come on and give a live reading to myself

10:40

and another audience member we

10:42

have. And then we have Jay Christopher

10:44

King as our third guest

10:47

for the show, who fucking runs

10:50

a thing called the Experience or Group,

10:52

and it's a place where anybody who's experienced

10:55

psychic phenomena and interaction with

10:57

an alien or a UAP, an identified

10:59

aero fun or anything that's

11:01

kind of like otherworldly, this is a

11:03

place for you to talk about it and be okay

11:05

and feel kind of safe, and no one's gonna think you're fucking weird,

11:08

which is basically why I created the show. Wait, well,

11:10

because I've not had a lot many of these

11:12

experiences. I want them, but I also want

11:14

to hear about yours. So Jay

11:17

is going to tell us about the three of the most exciting

11:19

things that people have disclosed in this group.

11:22

My point is, come to the show.

11:23

It's going to be so fun and I'm very excited

11:25

and it's going to be a good time. And

11:27

then on Thursday, January

11:30

twenty fifth, also for you luminary subscribers,

11:32

because you're the only ones who are going to be hearing us in time,

11:35

I am doing a big funny for

11:37

Fido charity event with Justin

11:40

Silver at the Cutting Room in New York City.

11:42

It's a big show.

11:43

The tickets are a bit expensive, but that's

11:46

all charity shows, so totally understand if

11:48

you can't afford it.

11:48

But for those of you who can, I think it'll

11:51

be well worth your money.

11:52

One hundred percent of the profits go

11:54

to helping rescue

11:57

dogs, especially these

11:59

more different breeds like pitbulls. Difficult

12:02

society, not difficult emotionally

12:05

and uh and it's going to be

12:07

me Colin Quinn, Bobby Kelly, Yamanica

12:10

Saunders, Caitlin cook Sami Sadika, and Justin

12:12

Silver on this show. And it's gonna be a great

12:14

night. And we're going to bring our rescue dogs,

12:16

Alfred to be there. Justin's dog, Brutus

12:19

is going to be there, who's delight. So it's

12:21

going to be a really, really, really fun night. And

12:24

if you again, if you have the money, and

12:26

I understand it's not an accessible ticket

12:28

price for everyone, but if you have the money,

12:30

it is a good place to have a

12:32

fun night and have your money go towards

12:35

something.

12:35

Is it a right? Is your ticket price right off?

12:37

Seventy five percent of your ticket price right

12:40

off? There you go. I don't have to pay taxes on it?

12:42

Yeah?

12:42

Absolutely, And then of

12:44

course we want to go in an

12:46

order, I guess, so you can go that.

12:48

Oh yeah.

12:48

February ninth and tenth, I'm headlining Bananas

12:51

in New Jersey, right across the river

12:53

from New York City, and then yours

12:55

is and then February twenty ninth

12:58

through March second, I'm going to be in washing To

13:00

d C at the DC Comedy

13:02

Loft with Chloe L. Branch That those

13:04

tickets have been on cl for a while so those

13:07

are kind of going quickly, and if

13:09

you want to get a ticket, I would you know, now's the time

13:11

to really pull the trigger on that. And March

13:13

twenty seconds through the twenty third,

13:16

I'm going to be headlining the Blue Room in Springfield,

13:18

Missouri.

13:20

Never been heard that's a great club.

13:22

Yeah.

13:22

I heard it's a great club too, by a couple of other comics. I don't

13:24

know if we ever been in Missouri. I

13:27

ever been there. Yeah, we've been to Saint Louis.

13:29

Oh right, that is a Missouri Show

13:31

me your coastal leaders, Well show

13:33

me.

13:34

Yeah, we went to I mean, I've been there at Lee one

13:36

time.

13:37

I might have been by myself, but I've definitely

13:39

I've been there at least twice.

13:40

I fuck once, was definitely with you.

13:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because yeah, I remember Saint

13:44

Louis in the arch.

13:45

Somebody farted on the ride up. Yes, awful.

13:48

I'll never forget that smell. Fuck you, sir.

13:52

It was really bad. But I love tiny towns.

13:54

I just love them.

13:55

When I did Utah with the fund, where

13:57

was I in Utah? I flew into Salt Lake, but I went

13:59

to some other by the provost schools. Yeah,

14:02

yeah, Yeah, it was awesome. I

14:04

love a small town. They're so fascinating

14:06

and honestly, you guys deserve comedy more and

14:08

it's more fun to do comedy for you guys,

14:11

So please come out.

14:15

Okay.

14:15

There's an article kind of in the spirit of

14:18

helping people and giving them knowledge

14:21

and a heads up before they find themselves in terrible situations.

14:23

I came across this article that uh

14:26

peaked my curiosities.

14:30

It's written by this private uh oh,

14:32

it's about hiring a private investigator. But the article

14:34

is called is my Partner Living a Double

14:37

Life? Five Warning signs.

14:39

I just want to share these with you guys, just in case.

14:42

Wait to see the emails. What does living a double life

14:44

mean?

14:45

If someone's living a double life, it means they are leading

14:47

two very distinct lives and keeping one

14:49

hitten from the other. The secret life may include an

14:51

extramarital affair, a second spouse

14:53

or family, an addiction, shopping,

14:56

stealing, or gambling, sometimes resulting in debt

14:58

or legal trouble.

14:59

Well, I know a lot of people that I've had.

15:00

Partners like that, illegal activities such

15:02

as drug dealings, a secret job i e.

15:04

Working as an escort.

15:07

And then these are the fut How can you tell if someone lives

15:10

a double life?

15:11

Well, here are some five signs, boys and girls

15:13

and nays and them. Let me know if you're.

15:15

In the market for some matrimonial surveillance.

15:19

Often they're away from home. If your

15:21

partner spends a long day away from home. This

15:23

is because this can be caused for suspicion.

15:25

For example, they can take regular weekends away

15:27

for work or family reasons and never invite

15:30

you along too. They

15:32

have unusual boundaries refusing

15:35

Oh, it's healthy to have boundaries in relationships, but does

15:38

your partner set limits that seem extreme

15:40

or unreasonable? For example, refusing

15:42

to add you on social media. That always

15:44

struck me as weird because I still know people that are in

15:46

relationships that they don't follow each other.

15:49

But it's not They don't live a career where

15:51

they have to be on social media, so it's not like a separate

15:53

thing, right, And I'm like, that's so

15:55

weird.

15:55

It's weird. It's weird.

15:57

Not allowing you to meet their family, friends,

15:59

or college that's a big one. Being

16:02

unwilling to discuss certain topics

16:04

such as their past or finances.

16:07

Number three, their stories don't add up. People living

16:09

a double life. We've complex webs of flies

16:11

and sometimes forget that they've what they've said to

16:13

whom they share many details about

16:15

their past that differ from what they've

16:17

told you previously. Maybe they've changed their

16:20

story about where they were last week, or perhaps

16:22

their spending habits don't match the

16:24

job and salary they claim to have for

16:27

They're extremely protective of their devices,

16:30

that's very true. Insist on privacy when using

16:32

their phone or computer. They turn off the screen

16:35

when you enter the room.

16:37

I've had that happen.

16:39

Then you know, that's all I'm thinking about all day

16:41

and night and week and the rest of our relationship. Regularly

16:44

delete their emails, text messages in browsing

16:47

history, and I've also had that happen. Refuse

16:49

to let you they weren't living with a double life, they were poloised

16:51

cheating, which I guess is double life come

16:54

according into this.

16:55

Refuse to let you use their phone for any

16:57

reason.

16:58

I always use that as a test when I start dating somebody,

17:00

I'm like, hey, can I see your phone?

17:01

To put on this song real quick, just to see if they I'm

17:03

not gonna look, but just to see if they freak out. That's

17:05

weird.

17:06

I like fucking hate when people

17:08

use my phone. But I'm not I'm not hiding anything.

17:10

I just hate it.

17:12

Yeah, I don't know, Like like if we're both.

17:14

Driving and I want to change the song, because

17:16

I had one time I was in the car.

17:19

Who was I dating at the time, somebody

17:22

somebody older. We

17:24

were in the car, he was driving. I remember, fuck

17:26

who was it? And I wanted to change the song

17:28

and I just went up and he goes, I'll change it, and I was

17:30

like, what the fuck?

17:32

Tod was this like in recent years?

17:34

And this was like four years ago, maybe

17:36

like in between Steven and Colin. But

17:39

it made me go I didn't It wasn't even invested

17:41

in this person that much. So I remember going, I

17:44

don't want to date you anymore, Like this is that's good enough for

17:46

me?

17:46

I don't. I don't even know what you're doing, but I'm

17:48

fine, right? And then five They avoid

17:50

simple questions.

17:52

Often, someone living a double life will avoid basic questions

17:54

such as a.

17:58

Kind of allergies, is it I here?

18:02

Uh?

18:02

Such as where they've been or what they've been doing, which

18:05

you know, uh.

18:06

Use all of these points with a great assault because it's

18:09

certain situations I'd be like, don't fucking ask me

18:11

where I was, and I was not leading a double life.

18:13

They may give you a vague answers, change the subject,

18:16

or may make you feel guilty for asking. That's

18:18

the one that I agree with. If they make you feel guilty

18:20

for asking. M I

18:22

don't know unless you're truly

18:24

you know, unless you're just fucking nagging bitch.

18:27

Yeah, don't be a nagging cunt. Don't be a

18:29

fucking that's any gender.

18:31

Any gender could be a nagging bitch.

18:32

Absolutely, guys

18:35

be fucked. Don't be a nagging bitch, all right?

18:37

And that brings us to another article

18:40

that we wanted to share on the show today.

18:42

This has to do with our guest.

18:45

Our guest uh wrote a book

18:47

about being single at Heart, and we're going to get

18:49

into that in a second. But in

18:52

her book, which is right here,

18:55

bay Single at Heart, she references

18:58

this Washington Post article that

19:00

said, called normal marital

19:03

hatred is real. Here's what to do about

19:05

it that came out in September of twenty

19:07

twenty two by Tara Parker Pope.

19:10

And so I was like, oh, I bad.

19:11

I can pull up this article today and

19:14

share it with you guys, Because the

19:16

author of Single at Heart

19:18

was just pointing out how strange she

19:20

thought it was to write an article

19:23

about marriage in which one

19:25

of the tips was that it's okay

19:27

to hate your spouse.

19:29

So she said, I think I thought that was

19:31

a little weird. Yes, that is fucking

19:34

weird.

19:34

So anyway, it says normal marital

19:36

hatred is real. Here's what to do about it. No relationship

19:39

is perfect. Try to start thinking of yours as

19:41

an ecosystem that you share with someone

19:43

else, or don't get married. Do

19:46

you know what normal marital hatred is? If

19:49

you've been married or in a long term relationship,

19:51

then you probably do.

19:53

No, I've been You didn't experience

19:55

this with Stephen at the end. That's why dumped them.

19:57

Yes, I was like, wait, I hate you so we broke up.

20:00

Yeah.

20:00

Yeah, I've been talking about this

20:02

around the country for decades, said

20:04

Terrence Real, a best selling author and family

20:07

therapist who offers couples workshops.

20:09

Not one person has ever come backstage

20:11

and said, what do you mean by that?

20:13

Everybody knows what it is marriage

20:18

name damn.

20:20

Even so, the idea that hating your

20:22

romantic partner is normal may come

20:25

as a bit of a shock to those who have idealized

20:27

romantic relationships. Yeah, I feel

20:29

this most times in a relationship,

20:31

and that's when I also end it. Yeah, and I

20:33

know that, like seemingly,

20:36

society is telling us that for a relationship

20:38

to go to the distance, you need to like.

20:40

Get work for that's that part. Yeah you

20:42

don't, but I can't, and nor

20:44

should you.

20:45

I hate that you shouldn't work, and

20:47

I don't want to be around

20:49

them that ever.

20:50

Yeah you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do know.

20:53

Oh it's called how I know I need

20:55

to break it off? Article

20:57

should be called when just like.

20:58

The sound of their before hitting the

21:00

plate, makes you want to end

21:03

their life totally.

21:06

I hope this car ride you're about to go on as your last.

21:09

What I didn't say that right?

21:12

One conversation with real and you will be

21:14

cured of any notion that real life

21:17

looks like a rom com.

21:18

No one acknowledges the single.

21:23

No one acknowledges the underbelly of relationships,

21:25

the real author of us getting past you

21:27

and me to build a more loving relationship.

21:30

Nobody acknowledges the darkness.

21:35

Damn girls, this is

21:37

rough.

21:38

Relationship.

21:38

Experts have tried for years to unlock the

21:40

mystery of how couples resolve conflict and

21:43

learn to stay together. John Gottman,

21:45

a University of Washington marriage researcher,

21:47

pioneered the study of relationships by

21:49

recording couples during conflict and

21:52

monitoring positive and negative words,

21:54

facial expressions, and body language.

21:56

He calculated that strong relationships

21:58

have a five to one rate ratio of

22:00

positive to negative interactions.

22:03

Another researcher, retired University

22:05

of Virginia professor Mavis

22:07

Heatherington, who studied

22:12

fourteen hundred heterosexual couples

22:14

over three decades and found a type

22:16

of marriage most prone to divorce. She

22:18

called it the pursuer distancer

22:21

marriage, in which one person typically

22:23

presses to solve problems, but the

22:26

other dismisses the concerns. Reel

22:29

said he thinks the real problem is

22:32

that many couples, if I was writing

22:34

about someone with the last name Real, I would have tried

22:36

to avoid using real correct

22:39

very more often just you know, hey,

22:42

who am I? But just point that

22:44

out there? You know, you're

22:46

right, like you could

22:48

have easily said real. The

22:51

main problem is the underlying problem

22:53

is anyway, whatever is that

22:55

many couples turn conflict into

22:57

a power struggle, and nobody wins in

23:00

normal circumstances. If you're unhappy

23:03

with me, that is not the time for

23:05

me to talk to you about how unhappy

23:07

I am with you.

23:08

He said, everybody that's wrong

23:12

good to me. It's

23:14

so hard not you bring that up.

23:16

It's so hard not to because

23:19

when someone brings up something wrong with you, you.

23:21

Go, I've been sitting on

23:23

this ship for years. I've just been sitting. You're

23:25

tolerating your behavior.

23:27

I didn't know that I could simply present it to you

23:29

as a laundry list. The moment I felt a

23:32

tinge of unhappiness.

23:35

Oh love anyway.

23:37

So here's what you should know about normal marital

23:39

hatred and what you can do about it.

23:42

In bold, it's okay to hate your partner.

23:45

There are going to be moments when you look at your partner

23:47

and at that moment there is a part of you that just

23:49

hates their guts. Real said, you're trapped

23:52

with this horrible human being? How did you

23:54

wind up here?

23:55

Fuck?

23:56

What I want to say is welcome to marriage,

23:58

Welcome to long term relationships? Are

24:01

where was this published? The Washington Post? Yeah,

24:05

but don't despair he said, The question is

24:07

now, what divorce? How do I deal

24:09

with it? Just get divorced, dude.

24:11

Then, in bold again, stop idealizing

24:13

relationships and get divorced. Real

24:16

notes that we wrongly celebrate an idealized

24:18

version of commitment, like that cute couple

24:20

we see at a party who seem to have a perfect

24:22

relationship.

24:23

Never seen that.

24:24

Where they're either toxically all over each

24:27

other or they're talking to other people.

24:28

What is this a party you saw on TV?

24:30

Like what?

24:30

I've never been to a real party where I saw this just

24:34

once at a cocktail party. I wish someone would say,

24:36

there's Harry and Shirley. For the

24:38

first twenty years they fought like cats

24:40

and dogs. He actually left her for

24:42

a year and took up with another woman. Well, I

24:44

mean at comics parties, this happens all the time.

24:46

Yeah, this is reality.

24:48

Then they managed to work on it and settle down,

24:50

and now they're pretty okay?

24:51

Are they adorable? That sounds like the worst

24:54

description.

24:55

And if I knew all the backstory for Harry and surely

24:57

I would never respect a word out of either of

24:59

those fuck losers mouths, you

25:02

know, I would go, oh wow, they both love

25:04

getting abused. Yeah,

25:06

and now in bold, it says normal marriages are

25:08

are long term partnerships or

25:11

long term partnerships are not happy

25:13

all the time.

25:13

Well, I mean that of course. Yeah.

25:15

After four decades of counseling couples, Real

25:18

has seen that all relationships follow a

25:20

consistent cycle harmony and

25:22

closeness, disruption and repair,

25:24

and a return to closeness. This pattern

25:27

of closeness, disruption, and returning to closeness

25:30

can play out at the micro level twenty

25:32

times in the course of one dinner conversation.

25:35

Oh god, that sounds exhausting. Oh

25:37

my god.

25:37

It can also play out over the macro level

25:40

over decades, he said, Your

25:42

relations self esteem, Yeah, this is

25:44

this is for people with low self esteem.

25:46

This is for people who they're trying to

25:48

fill the hole in their heart with another person.

25:50

I mean, that's why they hate their spouse,

25:52

like just seemingly these people can't think outside

25:54

the box.

25:55

Yeah, your relationships is an ecosystem.

25:57

Real said.

25:58

Traditional therapy, which can teach us

26:00

to assert ourselves, set the record

26:02

straight, set boundaries, and pushback,

26:05

can actually add.

26:06

To this dysfunction of marriages. Setting

26:09

boundaries, Yeah, because then

26:11

you're gonna.

26:11

Be distant from me, Christian and I love you, come close

26:13

so I can hit you. He

26:16

knows people don't always like to hear it. But

26:18

it's healthier to start thinking of your relationship

26:20

as an ecosystem where any disruption

26:23

hurts you just as much or worse

26:25

than it affects your partner worse.

26:29

That's codependent. I mean, that's

26:31

co dependent. I understand this.

26:33

Like, for instance, like if

26:36

someone like, because I date a lot of

26:38

people in the public eye, so like if someone in the is

26:40

hurting my partner in the public eye, like, yeah,

26:42

I'll say even if I don't even if I agree

26:44

with the trolls, why you know, I

26:47

will always have my partners back.

26:50

But and many times I do

26:52

feel like maybe that, yeah, that watching someone

26:54

get hurt in that way can hurt me more than perhaps

26:57

it even hurts them. Yeah, I understand

26:59

that, like and the protectiveness, but

27:03

not like you know, like if they lose

27:05

their.

27:05

Job, I mean, you're probably

27:07

gonna hurt that much. Yeah, I'm

27:11

you. Yeah, I mean I don't know.

27:13

I got that paper to then I would say, I mean, were

27:15

you acting at work the way you act at home, because

27:17

then put maybe more of your all into it you.

27:19

Know, or did you get laid off? Yeah, it's all circumstantial.

27:21

Yeah, stop thinking like to individuals

27:23

and start thinking ecologically. See, this

27:26

is where you're This is where you always lose

27:28

me with relationships society.

27:30

Uh, your relationship is your biosphere.

27:33

You're not above it, You're in it. You

27:35

breathe it. Oh my god, that sounds

27:37

terrible. I've actually lost oxygen. I need the mask

27:39

to drop.

27:40

It's so important for you.

27:41

If you guys have different opinions, it's so important to express

27:43

them and then that you can figure out like how do you which

27:46

one?

27:46

Like do we compromise or do we not? Like

27:49

it's right.

27:49

Wow, And we get into this in the interview with

27:51

our guest today. But this biosphere that we're talking

27:53

about, like, you know, we were talking about the concept

27:56

of unmarried and childless

27:58

people women being so often

28:01

called selfish by society. But to me,

28:03

if you are describing your home life as a

28:05

biosphere, what is that happy

28:07

fucking selfish than that Your

28:10

family is your biosphere. I

28:12

mean that is like you're you're existing

28:15

completely on your own and like the rest

28:17

of society doesn't matter because you found your

28:19

tribe. Oh you're saying,

28:21

I see what you're saying. Once you realize that it's in

28:23

your self interest to help your partner feel

28:25

better, it's easier to de escalate

28:28

conflict. I mean, yeah, that's what I'm always

28:30

doing. I go, oh, I guess I got to make sure he feels

28:32

good to my day.

28:33

Isn't Merlin.

28:34

Yeah. Every woman's been there, every heterosexual

28:37

woman's been there. We all know what this is like.

28:40

Save the constructive conversation for later.

28:42

It's my old last relationship when you're both

28:44

open to listening instead of.

28:45

In the middle of it.

28:46

I already don't like him. My god, make sure he's lost

28:48

cranky yep, Oh

28:51

my god.

28:51

This is not the time to say, well, let

28:53

me tell you about all my issues with you. Everybody

28:56

gets that wrong, Reel said, put objective reality

28:58

aside.

29:00

Seems like we're putting all reality aside

29:03

this article.

29:04

If you want to get married, put all reality

29:06

aside. Okay, Yeah,

29:08

Enter into your partner's subject subjective

29:11

experience with compassion and curiosity.

29:14

Say I'm sorry you feel that. Is

29:16

there anything I could say or do that would help

29:18

you feel better?

29:20

So now I got to tell you how to make me feel better.

29:23

It's so annoying. I just want you

29:25

to do something that's helpful. Boy boy

29:27

boy, I hate if my partner asked me that. Yeah,

29:29

real said.

29:30

It can be a tough pill to swallow, especially

29:32

when you think your partner is in the wrong, but

29:34

helping your partner get to an emotionally

29:37

better place is the best way to protect

29:39

the ecosystem.

29:40

See, yeah,

29:44

a fundamental level.

29:45

Because I've had so many partners

29:48

who are are in a bad mood

29:50

because they are fucking

29:53

in another realm and not in the cool spiritual

29:55

way, in a way where they think they are much like more

29:58

talented than they are, that

30:00

they are much harder worker than they are. And listen,

30:03

I'm not saying my approach where I tell

30:05

them, where I ask them questions

30:07

like what makes you think you deserve

30:09

that what the amount of work you've done is a good

30:12

way.

30:13

I might want to be a little more gentile.

30:14

I don't think that was good, But I certainly

30:17

don't think like contributing to their

30:19

fantastical view of themselves

30:22

and the world in which they're not really

30:24

participating is helpful. Like, yeah,

30:26

that's called enabling them your less

30:28

reality.

30:29

Yeah yeah, And.

30:31

I feel like that's like how like so many people

30:33

see that as a good wife, one who just like cause

30:36

plays the world that you have created

30:38

for yourself where you're really talented,

30:41

oh god, like or you're fucking

30:43

killing it, or you've put in, you

30:45

know, twenty years of work towards

30:47

stand up comedy or whatever you're pursuing. Yeah,

30:50

and when you haven't, which is also a

30:52

slap in the face to me who

30:54

has is in the same industry. You

30:57

know what I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of a lot of

30:59

men that I've know all throughout my child like just

31:01

men, like family friend men and

31:03

that whole happy I've always heard the phrase

31:05

happy wife, happy life, and

31:08

I always knew that was fucked up.

31:09

I'm like, no, because the.

31:11

Guys that eyewitness personally say that

31:13

were miserable and their wives,

31:15

some of their wives were just just they

31:18

were so miserable and they like got off

31:20

on making their husband miserable or something

31:22

about that, and like all the poor husband was

31:24

just going on trying to make sure the wife was okay so

31:27

that he could have a kind of good.

31:28

Time, which in reality was probably a terrible

31:31

time.

31:31

He would have been way happier single, And it's like, yeah,

31:33

we got to undo these tropes well. And also when it's

31:35

happy wife, Happy Life, that's me saying you're just doing

31:37

anything to appease your way

31:39

you none of your yeah, none

31:42

of your real feelings or needs

31:44

are being expressed in their relationship.

31:47

I also always had a problem with happy

31:49

wife, Happy Life. I remember so bad growing up.

31:51

My neighbor across the street kind of said

31:53

that. I don't think he said it to me. I think again, I heard

31:55

the adults talking, because I always used to be.

31:57

Like, what's going on up there? Yes, way more interesting.

31:59

And and I just remember

32:01

thinking to myself as like, I don't

32:04

know a nine year old, is

32:07

this.

32:08

What's going on in that house for you?

32:11

Yeah?

32:12

My dad certainly never said anything like

32:14

that, nor did my mom.

32:17

Real cautions that this advice

32:19

is helpful for managing the normal arguments

32:22

and disruptions that occur in every relationship

32:24

is that it does not apply to abusive situations

32:26

well thank god, or relationships

32:28

in which there is a power imbalance,

32:31

major psychiatric disorder. Okay,

32:33

well, I think I've had that, addiction

32:36

or another issue that may require putting

32:38

your own safety first and seeking professional

32:40

help learn how to repair real

32:42

said successful couples learn how to talk to

32:44

each other during and after conflict. Instead

32:47

of saying, don't talk to me like that, real suggests

32:49

something closer to I want to hear

32:51

what you have to say, So could you speak

32:54

to me differently so I can hear it? Can

32:56

you imagine trying but can you imagine trying to screen that

32:59

I hear you have to say? But if you could speak

33:01

to me a little bit different of a tone so I could process.

33:03

It and not get triggered.

33:04

Right, thank you very much. Yeah, sometimes it's just word

33:07

economy. Don't talk to me like that is so much better.

33:09

Yeah, I've said that before. I said the other day.

33:11

Yeah, I said, don't tell me what to do.

33:13

Yeah, if I want to rage out on this car,

33:15

yeah, let me be an idiot.

33:17

Yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah,

33:19

I got it. I mean I guess I guess

33:21

you could.

33:22

Like I I've definitely said to someone

33:24

like when they're like screaming or having

33:26

like some kind of a meltdown, I've been like I've

33:29

said, like, I'm on your side. Oh

33:31

that's nice. That's a nice thing to say, because I

33:33

don't melt them honestly. Pretty quick, like

33:35

this was happening to me, like not that long ago, Like someone call

33:37

and they were like having like just like a big and

33:39

I was just like like I was like, you

33:42

call me because I'm on your side, Like I'm on your side.

33:44

And that's a reminder, like that's why you called me.

33:46

You know that, right?

33:47

You know?

33:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:50

I want both partners like in life,

33:52

you know, I'm on your I'm on your side in life. That doesn't mean

33:55

just because someone's on your side in life doesn't mean that they're going to

33:57

agree with every ridiculous choice that

33:59

you make or thing that you do. And like, I

34:01

mean, if that's kind of love that you want, and

34:03

I mean that's depends, don't come to Corona. I think we

34:05

all learned that over the past ten years.

34:10

I want both partners.

34:12

Where we got everything and everything.

34:14

You want here at the Guys we market. He a little bit of this,

34:16

a little bit.

34:18

I want both partners to be fully voiced, but

34:20

you have to do it skillfully, he said.

34:22

People have to learn to speak up for themselves

34:24

and be loving at the same time.

34:26

Nobody knows how to do that.

34:28

Yeah, and it says discover real intimacy,

34:30

real set like with all this talking, I just don't know

34:33

how they're still fucking.

34:33

And that's like the main thing I'm grappling with in this.

34:36

I just don't know, Like, oh,

34:38

Okaytie, I have time to fuck, not

34:40

even time.

34:41

How do you have the want to?

34:42

Yeah?

34:43

Yeah, yeah, you're mostly depleted I imagine by all

34:45

these conversations, right

34:47

yeah.

34:48

Oh man, sometimes you just gotta shut up

34:50

and fuck.

34:51

Real said, we all long for a perfect

34:53

relationship, but real intimacy actually

34:56

happens when it's like she went out of her.

34:58

She's the word real. I'm just go woman

35:00

of this. Yeah, she went out of.

35:02

Her way to use real, and

35:04

like I don't know media, like there's no accent mark because

35:06

I'm like, maybe the last thing is like real, but there's no accent

35:09

market. Just I don't see any other way

35:11

that you can pronounce it other than real anyway.

35:13

So Real said, we all long for a perfect relationship,

35:15

but real intimacy actually happens

35:18

when we learn to accept the imperfections

35:20

of our partner. That's the character

35:22

of couplehood, he said. You're clear

35:24

about your partner's imperfections,

35:26

and you feel the pain and

35:29

frustration of it, but you choose

35:31

to lose Sorry, that was Freudian.

35:35

You choose to divorce them, I mean, Mary.

35:38

But you choose to lose them anyway.

35:40

But the line in the article says, but

35:42

you choose to love them

35:44

anyway.

35:45

That's matua love, that's

35:48

mature love. Guys. Yeah,

35:51

yeah, interesting. You know some of the parts I don't disagree

35:53

with, right then, No, I okay, So I totally

35:56

agree with that.

35:56

You're clear on your partner's imperfections and you

35:58

feel the pain and frustration of it, but you choose to

36:01

love them anyway. I agree

36:03

with that. It's not I wouldn't even have put

36:05

the anyway in there. That anyway is kind of cunty.

36:08

Yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, and and not

36:10

you know, love them any like? You love them.

36:12

Despite all those So I said earlier

36:14

with my last relationship, like I left because

36:16

I hated him.

36:17

I did, I didn't.

36:17

I do want to be clear, because I do want to be more considerate

36:20

with my words.

36:21

I never hated them, But.

36:22

I when I, when I like,

36:24

did all the things, like most of the things that this author

36:26

is talking about in the article, I found

36:29

myself having to do those things, and

36:31

I was like, this isn't the relationship I want at all.

36:33

This person isn't good for me. This is we're

36:35

not a matching, We're not compatible.

36:36

We're not a matching where we were a match for a long time

36:38

and now we're not a match and that's okay.

36:40

So yeah, but I I

36:43

I do agree.

36:44

Like I'm trying to think about imperfect

36:46

like you're accepting your partners imperfections

36:49

and like loving them

36:51

despite of it.

36:52

I'm like, what is an imperfection that's so bad

36:54

like that you can't.

36:58

Well? I mean, but also it's in the

37:00

work in the course of our lifetime. We're

37:02

not going to fix all the imperfections

37:05

that we have.

37:06

No, it's true, and I got

37:08

it. Yeah, And I.

37:09

Think some imperfections in our partners are

37:11

ones that bother us as the partner more

37:13

than they bother the person themselves. And it's I

37:15

think it's it's I mean, it's really

37:18

loving to try and work on something about yourself

37:20

that like really doesn't bother you at all

37:22

and bother someone else.

37:24

Yeah.

37:24

Yeah, but if someone if someone expressed that

37:26

too.

37:26

I feel like if it was like the way

37:29

I did something, even if it

37:31

was not sexual, I'd be like, all right, if that bugs

37:33

you, I don't really care about it, like i'dly

37:37

see it, but like, yeah, I think there

37:39

is a I don't know.

37:41

This is a really good conversation that we have. I'm excited

37:43

for. Yeah.

37:44

Yeah, the author is great And yeah, I just

37:46

thought this was because I could tell that the woman

37:49

that we interviewed today from how she wrote

37:51

about this article, this article really really

37:53

bothered her. Yeah, and I can

37:56

see I can see why, you know, and you're about

37:58

to see why when you your help gloriously

38:01

joyful as person is. Okay, So, she

38:03

has a PhD from Harvard University. She's

38:05

the author of Single at Heart, The Power of Freedom

38:07

and heartfeeling Joy of Single Life.

38:10

Her ted talk What No One Ever Told You About

38:12

People who Are Single has been viewed almost two

38:14

million times, and The Atlantic calls

38:17

this woman America's foremost thinker and

38:19

writer on the single experience.

38:21

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to guys. We fucked

38:24

doctor Bella de pollo.

38:55

Yeah, okay,

39:44

we are here with doctor Bella de'

39:46

pallo.

39:47

You are the author of Single at Heart, The

39:49

Power Freedom and heart filling Joy of

39:51

Single Life, and I must say you're

39:54

the happiest person i've talked to in about

39:56

a year, Like, yeah, we've only

39:58

talked for about one minute.

39:59

So, yes, you are radiating

40:02

joy.

40:02

Yes, thank you.

40:05

I do love being single. It

40:10

makes me very happy. Yeah, we

40:12

can tell this is incredible.

40:14

You're going to change a lot of lives with this interview, Bella.

40:17

I hope, so, thank you.

40:19

Yes, I guess let's start like, when

40:22

did you first learn that

40:24

you were a person who is single

40:26

at heart?

40:27

How did you have that realization? No,

40:31

for the.

40:31

Longest time, I

40:33

thought that maybe things

40:36

would change, So I always liked

40:38

being single. I never wanted to,

40:41

you know, be married. I never

40:43

looked longingly at other people who

40:45

were coupled, but it

40:48

seemed like so much a part of our

40:50

expectations that everybody

40:53

eventually wants to get married or get

40:55

coupled at least, So for

40:57

a long time, I just thought, well, being

41:00

married is like getting bitten by a

41:02

bunk, and I haven't gotten

41:05

bitten yet. And I don't know when

41:07

I realized that, no,

41:10

that's never gonna happen. I'm always

41:12

gonna love being single. I think it was probably

41:14

sometime in my thirties. It wasn't like one

41:17

a moment, but it was

41:19

a gradual realization and

41:21

what I didn't know for sure

41:24

this is who I am. It

41:26

was wonderful because then

41:28

I got to fully invest in

41:31

my in my single life. You know, I

41:33

wasn't thinking, well, you know, maybe some

41:36

guy will come along and then I want to

41:38

live with someone, with

41:41

anyone. I love living alone.

41:44

It's such a joy.

41:46

Yeah, it seems like no.

41:48

And when you had this realization that was not

41:50

you know, as you said, one aha moment, but kind

41:53

of it happened in your thirties. Was

41:55

it like realizing you're

41:58

gay and like, did you have to come out to your family?

42:00

Well?

42:03

No, I never did, And

42:05

in fact,

42:09

you know, the idea of being single at heart

42:11

is something that I came up with a

42:14

few decades ago. So when I was first

42:17

coming to realize that

42:19

single is who I really am,

42:21

I didn't know there was such a thing as being

42:24

single and happy and wanting to stay

42:26

single. So there

42:28

was no coming out in the sense

42:30

that there wasn't a category, a

42:33

known category that I fit

42:35

into. But I think I at least

42:37

I hoped that people

42:40

realized who I was, because I

42:43

never you know, swooned

42:45

about some cute guy I saw

42:48

or you know, said that I felt

42:51

badly because I didn't have anyone,

42:53

which is so so I

42:55

think that it

42:58

should have been evident to the

43:00

people around me that I

43:02

wasn't interested in this dating

43:05

game.

43:07

And now and like leading up to this,

43:09

had you what was the longest romantic

43:12

relationship that you had been a part of.

43:15

Oh, I don't know, probably months,

43:18

definitely not years. Interesting and

43:22

yeah, and you know it was fine.

43:24

I have no dating

43:27

chre stories. When I think back

43:29

to the guys I dated, and

43:31

there weren't that many. We

43:33

think about them fondly. But what

43:36

was really my most

43:38

positiveness pay from those times

43:41

is how I felt when the relationship

43:44

ended.

43:49

You felt so good, right, I mean I

43:52

even go.

43:52

Back to my single life. That's

43:55

what I loved, what I felt comfortable,

43:57

And yeah, yeah I

44:00

was.

44:00

There was an article that I was reading from

44:02

Time magazine was called nine ways

44:05

being single can improve your life, and one

44:07

of one of the points was that

44:09

your mind is uncluttered, and it called being

44:11

in a relationship mentally expensive.

44:14

And I couldn't agree more with that.

44:16

Yeah, because you had to, even if

44:18

you lovingly every time, Like

44:21

a small example is I want to eat dinner, I live

44:24

with my partner, I got to ask what he asked,

44:26

like, what are we doing for dinner?

44:27

Right?

44:28

You break that, you break up

44:30

and then you just eat dinner whenever you want.

44:32

You're like, right, it's like there's

44:35

day off. You're like, oh, we could do whatever

44:37

we watched.

44:39

Yeah, And it's about really

44:41

big things too. So for example,

44:46

in the year two thousand, I

44:48

had a possibility of a sabbath

44:51

go out here in California.

44:53

I was at the University of Virginia in Charlotte

44:55

of Virginia at the time, and so

44:59

it was supposed to be for one year, but

45:01

I just loved it out there, and

45:04

so I just stayed. So

45:07

I went from one coast to the other. I

45:09

had a tenured job which

45:12

I gave up. I had a whole you

45:14

know, friends and family that I had

45:16

built up this circle there, and

45:19

I just said, this is

45:22

what I love. And there was no negotiating

45:25

with a partner or feeling guilty about wanting

45:27

to do something if a partner didn't want to do

45:29

it. And it was like the ultimate

45:32

freedom to pursue

45:35

my best life,

45:37

my most meaningful and fulfilling

45:39

life, which is out here in sunny California,

45:42

which I absolutely loved.

45:44

Oh that's amazing.

45:45

Yeah.

45:46

I also think that speaks to something you have,

45:48

you know, have talked about over the years, like where

45:50

you have more room to grow mentally,

45:53

like you have that, and I even feel

45:55

that, so like you know, being you know,

45:57

I've had boyfriends and stuff for longer

45:59

periods of time, but I've

46:01

never been married. And I'm thirty eight now,

46:04

and I sit and think a lot

46:06

about how had I gotten married to that

46:08

boyfriend ten years ago or five years

46:10

ago, Like, I just don't think I would

46:12

have experienced the growth, realization,

46:15

the aha moments that I have in the past five

46:17

ten years.

46:19

And so my question

46:21

is, like, do you think those.

46:22

Things can't happen, They just are happening at a way

46:24

slower pace.

46:25

How much slower is that pace in your

46:27

opinion, pace

46:30

of.

46:31

The of the change, like of the developments

46:34

that you go through.

46:35

Yeah, I mean sure.

46:37

I mean people who are coupled are married

46:39

can experience personal growth,

46:41

but I think those single people

46:44

are especially likely to do

46:46

so, especially if they're single at heart

46:48

and they embrace their single lives and they

46:50

invest in them because

46:53

they have, you know, constrained

46:56

by opportunities and resources

46:58

and so forth. Single people have more freedom

47:02

than a couple people do, and so

47:04

they get to create

47:07

a life that is most authentic,

47:10

most consistent with who

47:12

they really are. And that

47:14

is an opportunity for personal

47:16

girls. And so is something

47:19

else that defies all our

47:21

stereotypes of what it means to be

47:23

single. So people use the word alone.

47:26

There's a synonym for single, like, oh, poor

47:28

things, she's alone. Well, in fact,

47:31

national surveys show that

47:33

single people, on average

47:36

are more connected to more

47:38

different people. And other

47:40

studies that follow people

47:42

over the course of their lives as they go from

47:45

being single to a couple

47:47

too, moving in together, to getting

47:49

married. Well, as those

47:52

couples move in together or

47:54

get married, they become

47:56

more insular. So

47:58

they see their friends, but they

48:01

contact their parents less often. It's

48:03

like they have their own little world. So

48:05

who's really low?

48:07

Yeah, very good points. Oh I

48:09

love that.

48:10

And you talk a lot about the

48:12

story that we've been sold, and it's mostly

48:14

women. Women have been sold the story that

48:17

marriage will buia us happiness. I think that

48:19

a married man, I would guess

48:21

that a married man, actually a

48:23

married straight man, I should specify, is

48:25

happier married because they have somebody to listen

48:28

to all their shit.

48:30

Whoops, something fell. That was probably a man

48:32

that was realizing I was right, but

48:35

like with women.

48:36

And so I think of when

48:38

I was watching her Ted Talk and I was just thinking about

48:40

how I grew up obsessed with Disney

48:43

movies nineties. Disney movies always focused

48:45

on the princess who was trying to figure out the thing with the prince

48:48

and really sold this narrative

48:51

from a young age with our pop culture that we're taking

48:53

in and then you know when we're playing

48:55

pretend as a little girl with the

48:57

babies and getting married and all this stuff.

48:59

So how you undo that conditioning

49:01

for yourself?

49:02

It doesn't seem like you had to do that for you because

49:04

you were just We unfortunately

49:06

live in a society where it's very brave

49:08

to be yourself, especially when yourself

49:11

is the green.

49:12

But what would you say.

49:13

To people that are kind of scared but they

49:15

know in their hearts that maybe single is

49:18

definitely a way better life choice for them, but they're

49:20

scared because they're too wrapped up in what

49:22

everybody else thinks.

49:24

I find your people.

49:27

So in twenty fifteen,

49:29

I started this online Facebook

49:31

group called the Community of Single

49:34

People, and it's mostly for single

49:36

people who like being single. So

49:38

we talk about everything except

49:41

what other people think singles are

49:43

obsessed with, but just dating or trying

49:46

to find a way to unsingle yourself,

49:48

we don't talk about any of that, but we

49:51

talk about, you know, the joys and the challenges

49:53

and our achievements and post

49:55

pictures of where we've been and it's

49:59

and so I finding

50:02

other people who see

50:04

the world the way you do is important.

50:07

And of course I would be

50:09

remiss in my love

50:12

of my own book Single Heart

50:14

if I didn't say read that, because

50:17

I think if you read Single Heart,

50:19

the power, freedom and heart

50:22

feeling joy of single life, you will get

50:24

a lot of reassurance. And

50:26

this is this is really important

50:28

that people understand

50:31

what I did not understand

50:34

when I was young, that there is a

50:36

thing called being happily

50:38

single, wanting to stay single,

50:40

and even more than that, being

50:44

happy because you

50:46

are single and not in

50:48

spite of it.

50:49

Yeah. Right, that's a very important

50:51

point.

50:52

Yeah.

50:52

I think there's like a big part of me and kind of probably

50:55

what helped me find you

50:57

or what serendipitous

50:59

thing has happened that I found you

51:02

online, is because like there

51:04

is a big part of me that thinks I am single

51:07

at heart.

51:08

But the main problem for me.

51:10

Bella, is I love sex

51:12

and I like to have a lot of sex. So,

51:15

quite honestly, like, how have

51:17

you tackled that? Or what is your relationship

51:20

with sex? And how has that?

51:22

Uh?

51:23

Yeah, how have you gotten throughout

51:25

your life without I'm feeling like a constantly

51:27

challenge.

51:30

Yeah, So let me tell you about

51:32

some of the single hard people I interviewed

51:34

and how they how

51:37

they get sex and their life. So Alyssa,

51:39

who's twenty seven, told me she'd

51:42

love sex, she loves emotional closeness,

51:44

but she doesn't want to what

51:47

we call ride the relationship

51:49

escalator or you keep going up.

51:51

You know. You know now we're dating.

51:54

Now we're dating steadily

51:56

if people even use that term anymore. Now we're

51:58

moving in together, we're merging

52:01

our finances. She doesn't want to do that.

52:04

She lets her partners know right

52:07

from the beginning. Evan who's forty,

52:09

is the same way. He's gay

52:12

and he likes going on dates. He likes

52:14

meeting new people, but he tells them

52:16

right from the beginning, you know this is he's

52:20

not looking for along a committed

52:22

long term relationship. Jessica,

52:26

who's thirty eight, calls

52:29

herself sexually open minded,

52:31

and she likes to engage

52:33

in sexual

52:36

practices that other people might look down

52:38

on, and she feels very

52:40

happy to be single because

52:43

she can pursue what

52:45

she likes without the judgment of

52:47

a partner who might not like

52:51

that. Another person, Andrea

52:55

called me that she's twenty

52:57

nine, that she actually

52:59

loves. When she was in college, she liked

53:02

a hookup thing

53:06

because it allowed her

53:08

to compartmentalize. So she said

53:11

she would spend time with guys

53:13

and they might even have

53:16

very intimate conversations,

53:18

but then it was over and she got

53:20

to go back to the other parts of her life

53:22

that she loved, like her classes

53:25

and her interests in her friends. And

53:28

so I think in lots of ways

53:33

it's actually it works out well.

53:35

It depends on your personal preference.

53:37

Yeah, And of course people some

53:40

people just aren't interested, so

53:43

that's another thing too. And if you're not

53:45

interested, it's much easier to be single

53:48

because you don't have anyone.

53:56

Yeah.

53:56

Yeah, being like a very sexual

53:59

person is exhausting, is

54:01

time consuming, and.

54:02

It's a lot of work.

54:03

It's a lot of work to like constantly be

54:05

kind of taking your care of Vera in that way also

54:08

too, I'm thinking of the people that I know in long term

54:10

relationships or marriage that are the happiest,

54:13

And it's the marriages or relationships

54:15

that have the most autonomy in them, where

54:18

they have separate bedrooms, separate home,

54:20

separate thing where they live on other Like I know

54:22

one couple who's married. They live on opposite

54:25

coasts and they see each other for like six months out of the year,

54:27

and I'm like, that's weird.

54:28

And then when you see each other, you're so.

54:29

Excited, But then the rest of the year you

54:31

have you're kind of like single. So it's

54:34

like interesting and the happiest relationships

54:36

that I know, there's some level of in

54:39

the relationship that there makes them more autonomous

54:41

than the typical Mary couple.

54:43

Yes, and you know, I've

54:46

had people who are coupled even

54:49

married tell them insist that they're single at

54:51

heart, and I have a little skeptical at

54:53

first. Well, I did believe

54:55

there would be people who are single at heart and married

54:58

and stay married because they

55:00

want to honor their wiles, but they

55:02

really, you know, they would have been better off single. But

55:06

other people who were coupled or

55:08

even Mary told me, no, I am

55:10

single at heart. And when I looked

55:12

more closely at their lives, it

55:14

was just like what you described.

55:17

They have a lot of they a lot

55:19

of independence. They're not these enmessed

55:22

couples. Instead, they have their own space

55:25

physically, they have their

55:27

own emotional space. They

55:29

give each other freedom

55:34

to, you know, spend time with

55:36

their friends separately from their partners.

55:38

So they really are kind

55:41

of you know, they persuaded

55:44

me. I mean, they don't score as high in the Single

55:46

at Heart Quiz as people who are single, but they're

55:48

yeah, I agree.

55:51

What are what are some questions from the Single at

55:53

Heart Quiz?

55:54

Could you or because my next question

55:56

is going to be like, how do you how do you figure

55:59

out if you are truly

56:01

single at heart?

56:02

And that's not just a story you're telling yourself.

56:04

You're like, no, guys, I don't know that, sure,

56:07

right.

56:09

Right? I think so this is actually

56:11

one of the most important ones. And it's

56:13

like, when you think about spending time alone,

56:16

what thought comes to mind first? Is

56:18

it, ah, sweet solitude or

56:21

oh no, I might be lonely? Well,

56:24

the single at Heart Almost

56:26

every single one of them says

56:29

sweet solitude and

56:32

if you are a

56:34

person who loves your solitude, you

56:36

know that alone doesn't mean that you're single at heart. But

56:38

it's a good it's a good first step.

56:42

That's like a superpower because

56:44

if you can be by

56:46

yourself and find that

56:49

time relaxing or

56:51

rejuvenating or good

56:54

for your mental health

56:57

or your or your thoughts

57:00

of your creativity or your spirituality,

57:03

wow, you are largely

57:06

protected from feeling lonely. So

57:09

it's just the opposite of what people

57:11

think it's like for people who are single.

57:14

So if you are single

57:17

at heart, you're not going to

57:19

be the stereotypical lonely person. And

57:21

as you get older, you're not gonna

57:24

be the caricature of

57:26

a single person who's isolated

57:29

and lonely. I mean, I'm seventy years old

57:31

now, I'm not isolated and lonely at all.

57:33

I feel like we're both single at Hardcren. Yeah,

57:36

was that that when the pandemic happened? And I don't

57:38

think you didn't have a boyfriend either, did you?

57:40

I was single.

57:41

I was seeing a guy a little bit in the beginning, but we

57:43

broke up quickly and he was like living in Denver.

57:46

Right, Bella. It was blissful.

57:48

Right.

57:49

Every day, I was so excited to wake

57:51

up and go, what am I I'm gonna do a craft today?

57:53

Yeah, I'll got worry by I'll got worry about

57:55

no man being like you're doing a craft for a five year

57:58

old?

57:58

Fuck you, Yes, I am.

58:00

And I like I have like a zany, wacky, like

58:02

childlike kind of sense of wonderment and

58:05

just to not have anybody comment on

58:07

how you do things, which is the no

58:09

matter how perfect your partner is, they're gonna

58:11

give some type of commentary, even if.

58:13

It's a look.

58:14

To not have that is so

58:16

beautiful and important, right

58:19

Yeah, yeah.

58:19

I mean even yesterday, like I ate for dinner.

58:21

I chose to ate to eat a bag

58:24

of like cheese mixed mun cheese,

58:26

which is when they put Doritos

58:30

and cheesy son chips and pretzels in a

58:32

bag, and I eat the whole thing bal and it

58:34

was like twelve hundred calories and that was my dinner.

58:37

And I was like, I was just thinking of like

58:39

the nasty judgment that a boyfriend

58:41

would have had if I was doing that in front of

58:44

me, and all of me and my dog did it

58:46

together. And I gave him some of the chips

58:48

and we had a night

58:50

and I feel, you know what, I feel fantastic. My

58:52

stomach doesn't hurt at all.

58:53

I felt great, good for real. Yeah.

58:57

Also, it is such a joy. It's

58:59

such a joy realizing too.

59:00

We had a discussion on the podcast a couple months ago

59:02

about unconditional love, and I

59:05

think that romantic love is perhaps

59:07

the most conditional love that there

59:09

is, and that is not

59:12

good for your soul to experience conditional

59:14

love.

59:15

Like so, if you're married from age nineteen to.

59:17

Eighty, and that's especially

59:19

I'm imagining if you're married from nineteen eighty you

59:21

probably were born in a

59:24

decade where that happened often. But

59:26

like, my God, to have like that much,

59:30

that much love in your life, that is

59:32

that. Yeah, it is conditional, it's got to be not

59:36

me that.

59:37

But it's also in a way restricting

59:39

because you feel less

59:41

free to develop

59:43

intimacy in your other relationships.

59:46

And I don't mean necessarily sexual intimacy,

59:48

but you know, yeah, if

59:51

you wanted to spend a lot of time

59:53

with a particular friend

59:55

or several friends or dear relatives,

59:58

now there's the risk that you're partner

1:00:01

would feel like that time

1:00:03

belonged to them.

1:00:05

The possessiveness of partnership is

1:00:08

yeavery interesting. Well, that's an interesting point because

1:00:10

the reason I broke up with my last boyfriend

1:00:12

was because we started dating

1:00:14

a couple months after my father had passed

1:00:16

away, and he

1:00:18

was significantly younger than me, so that also

1:00:20

played into it.

1:00:21

But he just like I could

1:00:24

tell that, like.

1:00:26

I wasn't being a girlfriend

1:00:28

enough to him and it was hurting him and

1:00:30

I but I honestly just didn't have the capacity

1:00:33

to deal with that on top of the grief

1:00:35

of losing my father, because it's like I love that

1:00:37

guy, the boyfriend, very much, but no offense,

1:00:39

like I love my dad more obviously.

1:00:42

Yeah.

1:00:43

And so I mean

1:00:46

for things like that in your life, like you know, the

1:00:49

sadder milestones, how

1:00:52

how have you how how

1:00:55

has how has that been without a partner? And

1:00:57

how did your friends or your other people

1:01:00

in your life help you through things like that?

1:01:04

Oh?

1:01:04

Yeah, well I can tell you about when

1:01:06

my father died. I

1:01:09

was in Virginia. He and

1:01:12

my mother were in Pennsylvania, so hundreds

1:01:14

of miles away.

1:01:15

Yeah, and.

1:01:17

My mother, oh,

1:01:19

two of my friends before she

1:01:21

called to tell me because

1:01:23

she thought I would

1:01:26

want to have someone there with me

1:01:28

when I heard the news, And

1:01:31

that was thoughtful of her, But it was exactly

1:01:33

wrong. When I hear

1:01:36

important news, and that even includes

1:01:38

good news, I like to

1:01:41

process it myself.

1:01:43

Oh my god, me too.

1:01:45

Well, yeah, it's different, you process it differently,

1:01:47

yes, yeah.

1:01:49

And then afterwards

1:01:51

I was very very much comforted

1:01:54

and appreciated and welcomed

1:01:58

the support of my friends and

1:02:00

relatives.

1:02:02

You know.

1:02:02

And I thought that was something quirky about

1:02:04

me. But Carol

1:02:07

Kan did this dissertation where she interviewed

1:02:11

fourteen women

1:02:13

who had who had been single

1:02:15

for a long time and asked

1:02:18

them what they like to

1:02:20

do when they first heard something important,

1:02:24

and eight of them said the same

1:02:26

thing. They want to process

1:02:28

it on their own.

1:02:30

Well, and I can't imagine that another

1:02:32

person being in the room when you get important

1:02:34

information, good or bad. Like you said,

1:02:37

it's almost impossible to not be affected by

1:02:39

their energy in terms,

1:02:41

and I can't imagine that doesn't affect your

1:02:43

processing, because, like one of my

1:02:46

greatest things about being in a relationship versus being

1:02:48

single, a lot of times, no matter how great the boyfriend

1:02:50

is, I have to be the only person

1:02:52

in my entire apartment for at least one

1:02:54

day out of the week, and if not, I'll go Absolutely.

1:02:57

You could be in the room and I'll never see

1:02:59

you, but I know you're there and your energy

1:03:01

and I can't.

1:03:02

So so with that in mind, like the.

1:03:05

Greek a piece of your

1:03:07

mind.

1:03:08

Yeah, without trying, probably without even trying,

1:03:10

without trying.

1:03:11

Yeah, oh, sure, of course, it doesn't have to be conscious

1:03:14

at all. It's just you know they're there. And

1:03:16

you know what I love about you telling me that

1:03:18

story, And I've heard things like

1:03:21

that from so many other people. Is

1:03:23

it counters this

1:03:26

insistence that if you are alone,

1:03:29

you know, spending time alone, there's something wrong with

1:03:31

you, Like you're some loner that's going to go shoot

1:03:33

up a school right now. No.

1:03:36

Yeah, And it's a difference.

1:03:38

Between being alone

1:03:41

because you want to be and you enjoy

1:03:43

that time and it makes you feel rejuvenated

1:03:46

and happy and healthy, as opposed

1:03:49

to your alone because everybody rejected you.

1:03:51

I mean, that's that's a whole different story.

1:03:53

I think there's more people in the world that are married

1:03:55

because they felt pressure too, like

1:03:57

and there's I shouldn't be married. So married

1:04:00

is the most lonely feeling in the world. Being with somebody

1:04:02

you don't actually do with.

1:04:03

But I think that, yeah, that's a good point.

1:04:04

Like I think we do conflate these two

1:04:07

types of a loaneless like we

1:04:09

conflate people who have chosen to be alone

1:04:11

and people who, as you say, the world

1:04:14

has rejected. And unfortunately,

1:04:17

the people who who the world has rejected

1:04:19

are our louder group of people, because

1:04:22

they are the ones who go and shoot

1:04:24

up a school and so and so.

1:04:26

Then we associate as a society

1:04:29

being alone is a bad thing.

1:04:32

But like, one of the first thoughts I had

1:04:34

when my dad died was I'm so glad I'm

1:04:36

not married, so I don't have to deal

1:04:39

with a husband on top of this shit

1:04:42

and his family.

1:04:44

He's got a whole ass family.

1:04:46

I was so And now

1:04:48

you know, it's we're at the time where more people's parents

1:04:51

are dying as we get into, you know, approach

1:04:53

our forties. And yeah,

1:04:56

I see my friends who have to like

1:04:59

navigate having a partner and

1:05:01

also going through the death of parent. I

1:05:03

actually know a couple who basically

1:05:06

got divorced because her

1:05:09

father died, and like I could just tell from

1:05:11

having been through it myself, the husband, the husband

1:05:13

was not doing a good job

1:05:16

of supporting, and she was like, I

1:05:18

don't want to be honest anymore. I

1:05:20

think a lot of our a lot of people in maybe

1:05:23

America especially are kind of emotionally

1:05:26

they're not attuned to their own emotions as much

1:05:28

like their emotional intelligence is not because

1:05:30

we don't encourage it in school. We don't encourage

1:05:32

it like where I think we're just starting to encourage emotional

1:05:35

intelligence and introspection, like in

1:05:37

a much bigger way. But yeah,

1:05:39

that's almost impossible to get if you're being

1:05:41

with somebody for so long.

1:05:42

It's like, what are your own thoughts? Yeah?

1:05:45

Yeah, Another thing

1:05:47

about the death of father. Carla

1:05:50

one of the people who one of the single at Hard

1:05:52

people in my Single at Heart but told

1:05:54

me that when her father

1:05:56

was dying and she was very close to him,

1:06:00

she felt so relieved not

1:06:02

to have a romantic partner because she

1:06:04

wanted to spend as much time

1:06:07

with him as possible, and

1:06:10

that would have been harder thing

1:06:13

to do if she were partnering.

1:06:16

Absolutely.

1:06:16

Do you think we'll start having movies soon, maybe

1:06:20

in our lifetime for kids, like Disney movies

1:06:22

where they're just celebrating a person man

1:06:24

or a woman or in between.

1:06:26

Who's just happy being alone?

1:06:28

Yeah? A while back,

1:06:31

there's a movie called Braige. Oh

1:06:33

yes, yeah, she was

1:06:35

great Mara maybe

1:06:38

with her name.

1:06:38

Oh, she's alone Okay, I didn't

1:06:41

see it though. It's the curly Redhead Okay,

1:06:44

yeah.

1:06:44

But you know it's about a little girl. We need grown

1:06:47

ups to want to be saying on, stay

1:06:49

sing on and love it. And it's

1:06:52

just appalling. Oh,

1:06:54

that's just not out there.

1:06:56

And it's especially appalling because

1:06:59

there are so many people who would

1:07:01

relate to that. And

1:07:03

you know, there have been hints

1:07:06

that people who write

1:07:09

movies and come up with ideas

1:07:11

for TV shows should have taken

1:07:14

A long time ago. Sex and the City

1:07:17

had this scene that was so

1:07:19

popular. It was when the

1:07:21

four women were at a wedding at the

1:07:23

bouquet toss and the

1:07:26

flowers come toward them and it's

1:07:28

right toward them, and they all

1:07:30

stand there and let it drop

1:07:33

in front of them, and then they look

1:07:35

at each other and they make plans for where

1:07:37

they're going next.

1:07:39

And you know, why

1:07:42

didn't people tune in the creative

1:07:44

community, Why didn't they tune into that and realize

1:07:47

there's something there, There's something

1:07:49

appealing about literally

1:07:51

turning your back on the

1:07:53

whole fantasy land of

1:07:56

marriage.

1:07:57

And on that same note, it's so unappealing

1:08:00

to hear female characters because most of

1:08:02

that show was them kind of bitching about

1:08:04

the men in their lives and not really doing a lot about

1:08:06

it. And so like a moment like that,

1:08:09

you feel like different cellularly taking

1:08:11

that in in a in artistic house, and

1:08:13

then it's just like this whole trope of there.

1:08:16

I was thinking a lot when I was reading.

1:08:18

I was skimming over your book about how many

1:08:21

people are in marriages and they don't like

1:08:23

their husband or wife. I'm like, why, And

1:08:26

I'm realizing now as we're talking to you, why

1:08:28

we give we we're so quick. People write us

1:08:30

emails all the time. We're so quick

1:08:32

to tell them to break up. But it's because

1:08:36

but it's because, like maybe it because we're both single

1:08:38

at heart, because we know how precious

1:08:40

and amazing your alone time is.

1:08:42

Blissful. It's blissful.

1:08:43

And I have a boyfriend that I love so much,

1:08:46

but I will never not love

1:08:48

my lifetime like that will stay with me

1:08:50

through rest of my life.

1:08:51

And he's a lot older than me, so

1:08:53

technically is probably gonna die before me.

1:08:55

And when I think about that, I'm like, all right, cool,

1:08:57

I'll do the last couple decades solo.

1:08:59

That's fine.

1:09:02

And well, you know, one of the reasons

1:09:04

I'm so passionate about this and I want

1:09:07

to, you know, get my book out there and my

1:09:09

message out there is because

1:09:12

if you are single at heart and you marry

1:09:15

because you think it's what you should do,

1:09:17

and the other person you marry is not single

1:09:19

at heart, that's not fair to them.

1:09:22

You know.

1:09:22

You It's like, you know what people

1:09:24

say, and it's mocked for being

1:09:27

you know, just a thing they say when

1:09:29

a relationship ends, it's not

1:09:31

you, it's me. Well, when

1:09:34

the person is single and heart.

1:09:36

That's actually true.

1:09:38

Relationship ends, it's not

1:09:41

it's often not the partner's fault.

1:09:43

It's not it's about the person.

1:09:46

It's single hard, and it's never

1:09:48

gonna work. You know. One thing

1:09:50

that convinced me most powerfully

1:09:54

that this is really a thing is

1:09:57

when I heard from people who

1:10:00

found the one people

1:10:02

they loved, who loved them,

1:10:05

who were willing to do anything for them,

1:10:07

and yet it's just

1:10:10

didn't want to be coupled. Interesting

1:10:14

and yeah, because otherwise people

1:10:16

say, oh, you just haven't found the right person.

1:10:19

You're fooling yourself. Blah blah, blah blah blah.

1:10:21

You know, the way they dismiss single people's

1:10:23

emotions and feelings, the way they never

1:10:25

dismiss the married persons. I mean, nobody would

1:10:28

say to a married person, oh, you just think you're

1:10:30

happy, Yeah, fooling yourself?

1:10:32

Right, yeah, well so deeply Ingreid even the

1:10:35

way that we like barely like, I don't know

1:10:37

if we ever or it's very rarely that

1:10:39

we elect a president who is unmarried,

1:10:42

have we ever, because we just don't there's something

1:10:44

in our society that we go, oh, something must

1:10:46

be wrong with that person. When I

1:10:49

think, like, well, if the person's unmarried, well then

1:10:51

they've had their whole life to devote to the

1:10:53

pursuit of social justice

1:10:55

and politics and causes, and probably

1:10:58

would be more well suited to be residents.

1:11:01

Yeah.

1:11:01

Yeah, And in fact, there's there's

1:11:04

a lot of research showing that

1:11:06

single people are in many ways

1:11:08

more giving and caring

1:11:12

and and aunctruistic

1:11:15

than people who aren't. And

1:11:17

you can see that also. Of

1:11:19

course I'm focused on the single couple

1:11:22

thing, but also kids,

1:11:25

no kids. I think that a

1:11:28

president who had no kids is

1:11:30

more likely to care about all the kids and in

1:11:33

the country and not just their

1:11:35

kids. Yeah.

1:11:36

True, Yeah, because it's it's so often, especially

1:11:39

women, childless unmarried women

1:11:41

are so often called uh

1:11:44

selfish. And as I

1:11:46

see more and more of my friends getting married,

1:11:48

I actually I agree with your point

1:11:51

entirely, where it's like, oh,

1:11:53

they care more about their

1:11:56

kids. They don't care about, as you said,

1:11:58

all the kids. And it's

1:12:00

not like pointing a finger like oh one is better,

1:12:03

you know than the other, or like married people are

1:12:05

selfish. So that's not I'm not trying to flip it

1:12:07

and say that they are selfish, but I do

1:12:10

think they're it's it's

1:12:12

misadvertised when you say,

1:12:15

oh, you have kids, you'll care more about

1:12:17

the world that they grow up, And it's like, no, I think you'll

1:12:19

care more about the how your

1:12:21

children specifically grow up in the world,

1:12:24

but rather than all the kids growing

1:12:26

up in the world.

1:12:28

And some of it is just time. Like part of

1:12:30

my decision, am I ever changing?

1:12:32

You know?

1:12:32

My process mostly like I don't want

1:12:34

to have kids, but a big reason

1:12:37

is because I think I would have to devote

1:12:39

so much time to my own children

1:12:42

to give them the life that I would want to that I

1:12:44

that I would have to stop doing these larger

1:12:47

pursuits that I'm really interested in and

1:12:49

changing the world at large for better,

1:12:51

which I do feel like I have the power to do.

1:12:54

Yes, yes, good

1:12:56

point.

1:12:58

Yeah, I think more people. I

1:13:00

know a lot of married people, and

1:13:03

a big chunk of them. I'm like, you guys

1:13:05

are a lovely couple. You're lovely to be around.

1:13:07

I love getting dinner with you. But most,

1:13:10

I gotta say most, it's.

1:13:12

Like they're not there.

1:13:13

They realized that their sacrifice

1:13:15

was too much like sacrificing

1:13:18

my fifty percent of my mental

1:13:20

capacity to now think about what you

1:13:22

want to do and what your input is.

1:13:25

It is just where you could

1:13:27

be.

1:13:27

Donating that to learning how to play

1:13:29

the drums or you know, having

1:13:31

two homes or whatever.

1:13:33

Do you have any recommending No, Oh, go ahead,

1:13:35

okay.

1:13:36

And I even feel happy

1:13:38

even when I'm with happy couples,

1:13:41

couples who seem happy.

1:13:43

Yeah.

1:13:43

So for example, if I go out to dinner with a

1:13:46

group that includes couples and they seem

1:13:49

like a good pair and everything's fine,

1:13:51

and the end, I am

1:13:54

so happy that I'm not them because

1:13:57

they have to go home and be with each other and I get

1:13:59

to go home be.

1:14:00

A LUCKI totally, totally

1:14:02

that's sweet, sweet alone time girls valuable.

1:14:04

Yeah, it's mad. Exactly Do

1:14:07

you do.

1:14:08

You have any recommendations besides

1:14:10

like making films that portray people

1:14:13

living single and happy

1:14:15

lives, Like adjustments

1:14:17

that we could make in society from

1:14:19

the research that you've done, Like how can we

1:14:21

start to make this feel like

1:14:23

a viable option for.

1:14:25

Young women and young men in the world.

1:14:28

Oh yeah, Oh sure. So if you're a teacher

1:14:31

at any level, you could include

1:14:35

the ideas that I'm talking about

1:14:37

in your teaching. Same thing for role

1:14:40

models at the

1:14:42

government level. Oh my gosh. There's

1:14:44

so much that can be done, starting

1:14:46

with something easy. The way politicians

1:14:50

and candidates

1:14:52

talk about, oh, I'm here

1:14:54

for families, for working

1:14:56

families, Well, well it's so ridiculous

1:14:59

because families don't get hired

1:15:02

and two year olds aren't great workers

1:15:04

are off.

1:15:06

Yeah, so let's.

1:15:07

Talk about them, and then the policies

1:15:10

that could change. You know, there are

1:15:12

hundreds of laws

1:15:15

that benefit and protect only

1:15:17

people who are legally married,

1:15:21

and that has got to change, and it's really

1:15:23

important. Stuff like family

1:15:26

and medical leave apps. So if you are

1:15:28

in an eligible workplace, you

1:15:30

can take time off to care for

1:15:32

a parent child or

1:15:35

you're suppose well, a single

1:15:37

person can take time off to care for a

1:15:39

parent a child, but there's

1:15:42

no one in the place, and so I can't

1:15:44

take time off to care for a

1:15:47

close friend or a dear relative

1:15:50

or anyone else, and no one can

1:15:52

take that time off to care for me.

1:15:54

So those are ways in which

1:15:58

we're you know, we're really stigmatizing

1:16:01

and hurting people who

1:16:03

are single at heart and

1:16:05

are just single, and you know,

1:16:08

we should want people to be

1:16:10

there for each other.

1:16:17

Mm hmmm, Yeah, that actually reminds me of

1:16:19

one of my biggest pet peeves. We're stand up comedians,

1:16:21

and I've been trying to write a joke about this, but so

1:16:24

often on the news, when someone is murdered,

1:16:28

it will somehow increase the horror

1:16:31

of them being murdered if they have kids,

1:16:33

and it just feels so like

1:16:37

like she's.

1:16:38

Better than yeah, like always it

1:16:40

so like it's so what The

1:16:42

message that I get from that constantly

1:16:45

is like, so if you

1:16:47

are murdered or die, especially

1:16:50

at.

1:16:50

A young age, and you didn't have

1:16:52

kids, like oh wow, loss.

1:16:56

Yeah really, well, actually,

1:16:58

there's a lot. I'm gonna

1:17:00

say it's funny, but it's not. It's awful,

1:17:02

but it's amusing and its

1:17:04

awfulness. So if

1:17:07

you are married and you

1:17:09

die, your

1:17:12

spouse gets a couple

1:17:14

hundred dollars towards final expenses.

1:17:17

But if you're single and you

1:17:19

die, no and gets that, it's like throw

1:17:22

their body in a ditch.

1:17:23

Yeah, what the hair? Oh

1:17:25

my god? Yeah, And it's.

1:17:29

It goes along with this concept, like you could kind of

1:17:31

say that a country pushing its people

1:17:33

to get a citizen to get married, so

1:17:35

they're pushing for traditional family. Whenever

1:17:37

you hear a politician belong to any group

1:17:40

that has traditional or family, they're usually

1:17:42

anti LGBT, anti women's

1:17:44

right. So there's just all these awful, awful

1:17:46

things, but it goes kind

1:17:48

of hand in hand, Like one of the most

1:17:50

dangerous types

1:17:52

of people to capitalism is somebody

1:17:54

who self actualized and loves themselves and doesn't

1:17:57

feel empty or shall or hollow or

1:17:59

ugly or.

1:18:00

Or whatever or less than.

1:18:02

And it's nice that it's coming kind of we're

1:18:04

talking about being single at heart at

1:18:06

a good time when we're also encouraging

1:18:08

people to get to know themselves. On a much deeper

1:18:10

level than they were ever encouraged to do

1:18:12

so. And so hopefully that means

1:18:15

that more people can more

1:18:17

people can realize this before

1:18:19

they feel pressure to jump

1:18:21

into a marriage, because I feel like some people

1:18:24

you meet.

1:18:24

And you're like, wait, you're engaged. You just

1:18:26

met? Like how often that happens?

1:18:30

Yeah?

1:18:31

Yeah? Is there great?

1:18:33

Yeah? There is a lot of pushback

1:18:36

from you know, this

1:18:38

is what my message is threatening

1:18:40

to people who want to say who want

1:18:42

to believe that the traditional

1:18:45

way is the one and only good

1:18:48

and valuable way to live. And so

1:18:50

I do get pushed back.

1:18:52

That's so interesting. What's like the what's what

1:18:54

are can do?

1:18:54

You have a comment in your head of

1:18:57

something somebody said because they were so threatened by

1:18:59

this idea, because to me, I would,

1:19:01

oh, well, they're so miserable being married

1:19:05

that they want you to also be miserable.

1:19:08

Well, this is in on page two sixty

1:19:10

two of my Single Heart book. This

1:19:13

is an email I got. I got says Hi,

1:19:15

Bella just want to let you know that single

1:19:17

people are inferior in every way.

1:19:20

They're worthless, useless, lazy,

1:19:22

and stupid. There's nothing I hate

1:19:25

like single people, anyone single

1:19:27

it's completely defective, otherwise

1:19:30

someone would love them. So

1:19:33

I know you found some micro macro

1:19:35

aggressions there, but I want you to use

1:19:38

all of your Harvard skills. Just

1:19:40

understand it's entirely

1:19:43

your fault. You're single, Therefore

1:19:46

you suck.

1:19:46

He's talking you suck.

1:19:47

Because you're single. Say it out

1:19:50

loud. You are nothing worthless.

1:19:54

That was That's that I'm assuming I was a man talking

1:19:56

to himself, or well it could be a woman to that

1:19:59

was this person talking to themselves.

1:20:01

They were talking to themselves. I mean, that's

1:20:03

so cool Jesus Christ.

1:20:05

Yeah.

1:20:05

And it's also and it kind

1:20:07

of makes me sad for the writer because

1:20:10

the writer is thinks has

1:20:12

it ingrained in. Let's just

1:20:15

say his mind that it's just guessing

1:20:17

that you, because you are

1:20:20

unmarried and you don't have a

1:20:22

romantic partner, that no one loves

1:20:24

you, when I mean it's you're pretty clear

1:20:26

from your attitude that you're very loved.

1:20:29

You're you're happy, you're emanating

1:20:32

love.

1:20:33

Yeah, I

1:20:35

mean yeah, it just makes me.

1:20:36

It makes me sad that people think that.

1:20:37

Where people think like if no one

1:20:40

we're a society of people waiting to

1:20:42

be chosen, and I find

1:20:44

that to be extremely depressing.

1:20:47

You know, I don't.

1:20:48

I haven't waited on a small scale

1:20:50

to be chosen for like a prom or a

1:20:52

date or anything, and certainly not on a large

1:20:55

scale to be chosen.

1:20:56

Yeah, you know. And you

1:20:58

know that goes to another one of the big

1:21:00

points of my Single heartbook, which

1:21:03

is that single light if you love

1:21:05

it, if you embrace it and invest in

1:21:07

it, it's a more expansive

1:21:09

life. So we understand

1:21:12

that love is more than just romantic

1:21:14

love, that intimacy can include

1:21:17

sexual intimacy, but it also includes

1:21:19

emotional intimacy. That

1:21:22

relationships aren't just romantic

1:21:24

relationships. They can include friendships

1:21:26

and relationships

1:21:28

with colleagues and friends

1:21:31

and relatives

1:21:33

and mentors and confidence and

1:21:36

all of those kinds of relationships are

1:21:38

important. And so

1:21:41

in that way, for the single

1:21:43

at hearsh, the risk is

1:21:46

not what they would lose

1:21:49

if they did not put a romantic

1:21:52

partner at the center of their lives, of

1:21:54

what they would lose if they

1:21:56

did.

1:21:57

Yeah, chills say,

1:22:00

yeah, that's gorgeous.

1:22:02

Yeah, And I think to speak

1:22:04

speak that like a problem that I

1:22:06

see as I get older is as

1:22:08

more and more of my friends.

1:22:10

Find you know, the one, or get married

1:22:13

or have kids.

1:22:14

Like these people that I have spent my whole life

1:22:16

with, like they just have less time for me, right,

1:22:19

And also their interests

1:22:22

become different from mine. And

1:22:24

it doesn't mean that I like them less as people, but we're

1:22:26

just on different paths. And

1:22:28

I know you created this Facebook group,

1:22:30

but do you have any other recommendations other

1:22:32

than that, Like, so, how do we find

1:22:34

people that are on similar journeys

1:22:36

because I'm really interested in that, in finding

1:22:39

people like that.

1:22:40

I've found a little through wickup, but that's

1:22:42

not the normal.

1:22:43

Yeah, yeah, you

1:22:45

know, I think we need more ways

1:22:49

to do this. And I

1:22:51

think as the idea

1:22:53

the concept banksing on heart becomes

1:22:56

more widely known, I think there will be

1:22:59

more people who will

1:23:02

who will self identify as single

1:23:04

at heart and will

1:23:07

be open to friendship

1:23:10

send And what's really

1:23:12

great if you do find I know, I'm

1:23:14

not giving you great suggestions for how to find

1:23:16

this friend, but you yeah,

1:23:20

so why they maybe? But they're

1:23:22

not saying that they're single

1:23:25

at heart because it's so stigmatized.

1:23:27

People say, oh, you're just fooling yourself. You're not really

1:23:29

happily single. What's

1:23:32

great about having friends who

1:23:34

are single at heart, is that

1:23:37

they are really present in the

1:23:39

friendship. So they're not looking past

1:23:42

you for the romantic

1:23:44

partner who might be on the horizon, or

1:23:47

about the partner who might be waiting

1:23:50

for you at home, and they're not going to

1:23:52

do what people who get coupled

1:23:54

in, which is demote you from you

1:23:57

know, maybe you used to go to dinner, now you go out to lunch,

1:23:59

or maybe they saw you a lot, now they see

1:24:01

you maybe, Yeah, so's

1:24:04

it's a whole different kind

1:24:07

of friendship.

1:24:08

Yeah, well, I I end up spending a lot of time

1:24:11

with straight men because I've found

1:24:13

that even when they are in relationships,

1:24:15

they still live like they're single at heart.

1:24:17

So yeah, straight men sing

1:24:20

at heart. That's been my that's been my fix.

1:24:24

But you know, like, truthfully, it's not like I because

1:24:26

we're stand up comedians, I think we actually have the luxury

1:24:29

of being around a lot more older,

1:24:31

single people than most people have access

1:24:34

to.

1:24:34

So that's certainly been good.

1:24:35

But yeah, unfortunately, when you're

1:24:37

like these, most women, even

1:24:40

female comedians, I think, are still distracted,

1:24:42

as you're kind of saying, by this quest,

1:24:45

this quest that society has put us

1:24:47

on them, where we're looking for the one, whereas

1:24:49

men, I mean I said it to be joking,

1:24:52

but like I am serious, Like they live like they're

1:24:54

single at heart, or they're not on a quest

1:24:57

to find the one.

1:24:57

They're just on a quest. They're not even

1:24:59

on the quest. They just they're just

1:25:02

living.

1:25:02

Found someone in you know,

1:25:04

in the vicinity, as we say on this one about them,

1:25:07

and it's not that distracting to them.

1:25:09

Yeah, because it's like a partner, lot of soulmate,

1:25:12

and it just takes so much more headspace.

1:25:15

Yeah. Well, you know, I love that

1:25:17

your stand up comedians, and I think you should

1:25:19

come up with gigs to do about this.

1:25:21

I mean, take the role of someone

1:25:23

who's single at heart and what they're really

1:25:26

thinking to themselves. So imagine, for example,

1:25:29

when someone chose their engagement

1:25:32

ring and everybody around

1:25:34

them squeezers, like, oh, make

1:25:37

fun of that.

1:25:38

Yeah yeah, yeah, no, I mean I try.

1:25:41

I recently made an observation

1:25:43

that men to me are like a promotional

1:25:46

toe bag, like I'll

1:25:49

use this, but I didn't know this,

1:25:51

and oh my god, on date

1:25:54

nights, no one will laugh, but on you

1:25:56

know, Monday through Thursday, cackles

1:25:58

because you can't laugh at that in front of your when

1:26:01

your boyfriend's paying the bill. You know that's

1:26:03

not good, Okay,

1:26:06

And I think we get a lot of on

1:26:09

this show. We get a lot of pushback from people leading

1:26:12

more traditional lives. So I think feel, for

1:26:14

lack of a better word, triggered by our conversations

1:26:16

on here, like we are somehow hating

1:26:19

on area people, or that we have some

1:26:21

vendette against them, or that the whole show is

1:26:23

us being bitter, when I've tried to express

1:26:26

multiple times that we

1:26:28

spend a lot of time talking

1:26:30

about options other than marriage, or perhaps

1:26:32

maybe the downfalls of marriage and traditional

1:26:34

life, because that's not something that's been talked

1:26:37

about a lot, and there are just

1:26:39

so many spaces where you can talk about how

1:26:41

great marriage is, and there's not enough where how

1:26:45

you have tools to help people

1:26:48

feel less triggered, or to explain

1:26:50

to them that we're not attacking

1:26:53

their traditional lifestyle.

1:26:54

We're just presenting a different option. We're presenting

1:26:56

one that's more fun.

1:26:58

Sorry, hater, right, So the

1:27:00

way I think of it is that single

1:27:04

got harsh and having

1:27:07

an openness to that.

1:27:09

It's part of a whole bigger project

1:27:12

of people getting to

1:27:14

live their best most authentic

1:27:17

lives. It's part of the whole

1:27:20

process of when people

1:27:22

who weren't heterosexual felt digmatized

1:27:26

and couldn't couldn't say who they really

1:27:28

were, or when women were stuck

1:27:30

in more of a traditional

1:27:33

box. I mean, some still are, but it's

1:27:35

much less so now. And so I

1:27:40

think that people who are

1:27:43

drawn to coupled life, who really do flourish

1:27:45

there more than they would if they were single,

1:27:48

they should get to do that. No one

1:27:50

needs to say that, just assumes

1:27:53

that. So the reason that

1:27:55

I need to talk about single at heart

1:27:58

and focus on single people and

1:28:01

be a messenger for the

1:28:04

way single life can be fulfilling

1:28:06

and more fulfilling than coupled

1:28:08

life for people who are single at heart is

1:28:11

because that message isn't out there.

1:28:13

So it's not that I

1:28:16

want to dump on you married

1:28:18

people who are coupled or you know, make fun

1:28:20

of them, But I do want

1:28:23

to show that

1:28:25

people who are single should

1:28:28

feel just as proud

1:28:30

of their lives. And in some

1:28:33

ways, you are single

1:28:35

at harsh and you

1:28:38

admit it and you don't try to hide

1:28:40

that. That's even in

1:28:42

a way it's even more admirable

1:28:44

because you're going against the grain

1:28:47

you're taking the risk that people

1:28:49

will mock you or disbelieve

1:28:51

you as I oh, you're just fooling yourself. But

1:28:54

it's important because you

1:28:57

can then be a rule model

1:29:00

for other people who love

1:29:03

being single but they don't want

1:29:05

to admit it, or they think, oh, this really

1:29:08

gets to me. Some people who love being single,

1:29:10

I've written to me and they think there's

1:29:12

something wrong with them, So you

1:29:14

know, they'll go to therapy and myself

1:29:17

help books and weird

1:29:20

Is that that someone who loves

1:29:22

their life, there's

1:29:25

something wrong with you? If you

1:29:27

love your life. Congratulations,

1:29:30

you're doing one of the few.

1:29:32

Yeah, that's an amazing, beautiful, blessed

1:29:34

position to be in. Oh my gosh,

1:29:36

this has been a lovely interview. Thank you so

1:29:39

much.

1:29:39

Yeah, is there anything talking to you?

1:29:42

Yeah?

1:29:42

We we love it.

1:29:43

I knew I knew that this was going to

1:29:45

be great and I can't wait to read the

1:29:47

whole book. Is there

1:29:49

anything else that you want people to know, other

1:29:52

things that you've written, or places where people

1:29:54

can find you and follow you, plug anything

1:29:56

you want right now?

1:29:58

Yeah? Okay, So

1:30:00

my website is Belladipollo

1:30:03

dot com. E E L L A D

1:30:05

E p A U L o dot

1:30:07

com and I have been

1:30:09

writing the Living Single blog for

1:30:12

a Psychology Today since two thousand

1:30:14

and eight.

1:30:15

Amazing.

1:30:17

Thank you so much for joining us here today

1:30:19

I continue living your best

1:30:21

single life. This was such a

1:30:23

great and unique interview and I'm so excited

1:30:26

for our listeners to hear this.

1:30:28

Uh.

1:30:28

This is Guys We Fucked,

1:30:30

the Anti slutschain podcast. We'll talk

1:30:32

to you next Friday, Beau.

1:30:40

Guys We Fucked is presented by Luminary,

1:30:43

Created and hosted by Corin Fisher and Christina

1:30:45

Hutchinson. Editing and music coordination

1:30:47

by Mike Coscarelli. Theme song by

1:30:50

Rob Patterson and Jake.

1:30:51

Cosen Stuck my wet ass pussy.

1:30:54

Christina SAIDs to cut that before, but now it's in

1:30:56

the air. Yeah, let's keep it. Who good.

1:31:07

Lately, I haven't gone through shift.

1:31:10

Other things I love seemed to

1:31:12

defeed me. I

1:31:16

don't want to do ship step,

1:31:18

spoke, greed, sex and watch TV.

1:31:23

I haven't feels bit better.

1:31:25

It's hard to make great things

1:31:27

look geasy.

1:31:31

I don't want to.

1:31:31

Do shiit, stup, smoke,

1:31:34

greed, sex and watch TV. Tired

1:31:39

egg being motivated

1:31:43

consume Alma.

1:31:47

I've had cost thirty.

1:31:49

Jobs and still the minute

1:31:52

rights then

1:31:54

sometimes to see of facing

1:31:58

everything is true?

1:32:01

What's your point in going?

1:32:04

And amya whose days

1:32:06

up at night waiting

1:32:08

for me to

1:32:12

arrive?

1:32:15

Waiting for me.

1:32:18

Too?

1:32:22

Lately I haven't going through ship.

1:32:25

All the things I love seemed to

1:32:27

defeed me.

1:32:31

I don't want to do.

1:32:32

Ship, step spoke, greed,

1:32:34

steps and watch TV.

1:32:38

I haven't fans to fit by decide

1:32:41

to make great things look easy.

1:32:46

I don't want to do shit, step

1:32:48

spoke, greed, sex and watch TV.

1:32:53

Jolianna doc, I

1:32:57

knew what the truth is.

1:33:00

Don't may go down.

1:33:02

This Tago was