0:01

Welcome to Guys, We Fucked. Guys,

0:05

we guys, we book. I'm

0:07

Christina, I'm Karren. We're sorry about

0:09

last night the anti slut shaming

0:12

podcast. I never stopped.

0:17

Hello, fucker's Welcome to another

0:20

episode guys, We Fucked. It

0:22

is the anti slut shaming podcast,

0:24

brought to you exclusively

0:27

from Illuminary.

0:29

I'm Christina, I'm Karen, and

0:32

here we are. This is actually we're

0:35

recording this after we recorded the regular

0:37

podcast. This isn't it like a little of dundum,

0:40

little revision, little updates. Yeah, because

0:42

these states be passing these crazy laws. And

0:44

then we got to tell you about him. Yeah, because yeah,

0:46

it's happening so fast. Our rights are being

0:48

taken away, like so quickly that we

0:51

can't Oh my god. So

0:53

we woke up today obviously, Uh,

0:55

things have gone awry in Alabama.

0:58

We're going to cover it more in detail

1:00

after. But again, that was recorded a couple of days ago, so

1:02

we wanted to update you CNN and is actually

1:04

doing God bless their soul, live

1:07

updates on Alabama's

1:10

a near total abortion ban. Um.

1:12

So, what happened is Alabama's

1:14

Senate past the most restrictive

1:16

abortion bill in the country last

1:19

night, meaning uh, Tuesday's

1:21

day. So what's in the bill?

1:23

Under the legislation, doctors could face up

1:25

to ninety nine years in prison for

1:28

performing an abortion. Democrats had reintroduced

1:30

an amendment to exempt rape

1:33

and in sus victims, but the motion failed.

1:36

What happens now? The bill heads to

1:38

Republican Governor k Ivy's

1:40

desk. She has six days to sign the legislation.

1:43

I know, I was thinking, come on girl, come

1:46

on, Kaku. Though the bill would

1:48

not take effect until six months

1:50

after becoming law, So

1:53

technically nothing like if you have as we said,

1:55

we say in this uh stuff coming

1:57

up like if you have an abortion scheduled,

2:00

don't cancel it. Don't cancel it. Get

2:02

that, get it if you want it. Yeah

2:04

uh yeah, So k I V. She

2:06

has the chance to not sign it. What

2:08

will she do? We don't know. But

2:11

also there's nothing there you can't

2:13

You can still get your abortion. And you have one,

2:16

and you see any state and you wanted to there was some language

2:18

I think you wanted to point out as well, embreyal

2:20

versus fetus language. Um. So

2:23

the what we're about to talk about

2:25

in the intro that we recorded yesterday,

2:27

Uh, there was the six week abortion band,

2:29

meaning that a woman cannot get an abortion.

2:31

This is a proposed band after

2:34

um six weeks of pregnancy. A

2:37

lot of times women don't even know that they're pregnant.

2:39

UH comes six weeks. And also the

2:41

fucking thing inside of you is an

2:43

embryo and it's not a fetus, and

2:45

they keep using the word fetus in this bill and

2:47

then wrong. And then I watched the John

2:50

Oliver. We quoted John Oliver's coverage

2:52

UH in the later on and in the intro, and

2:55

they played a clip from one of the

2:57

Republican senators who penned the

2:59

bill, and the reporter asked

3:01

him about this question and the

3:03

guy was like, I don't know, asked somebody who does abortions.

3:06

I don't know. I don't know somebody who does

3:08

abortions. Yes, this

3:10

guy. The lawmakers are fucking

3:12

idiots and it's really disheartening.

3:14

And they're all they're all dudes,

3:16

man, the ones that voted in Alabama, they're

3:19

all And I know and would trust

3:21

me you and we both know. Not all

3:23

white people are. Not all white people are terrible. They're

3:25

all old white guys, the

3:28

kind of old white guys that suck. Well, it's

3:30

funny. That are great. Yeah, because I put

3:32

up a quote. I reposted a quote

3:34

this morning when I woke up because nothing gets

3:36

me out of bed. Like I don't need coffee, I just get

3:39

abortion Kappa outrage.

3:41

Okay, I love it, and

3:44

um, well, because seriously, I will

3:47

learn. I will learn how to. I'm a smart girl.

3:49

I have small hands. I'll administered in abortion.

3:52

Oh you can do it. I know. I kind if someone taught

3:54

me. You put say how to, person

3:56

can do it, and I would like I put that on like

3:59

I was. I mean, obviously, I hope it doesn't

4:01

come to that, but I will a hundred percent and be a person

4:03

running an illegal abortion clinic. Yeah.

4:05

I guess I probably shouldn't whatever we know about

4:07

that, but it's not banned yet, so well that's

4:10

still illegal right now. You can't. You can't

4:12

give an illegal abortion. But the thing is,

4:14

lawmakers, if you don't want these illegal abortions,

4:17

then you should make abortion legal. Because let me tell

4:19

you something, it's just like that thing you posted it on your Instagram.

4:21

If a woman wants to get an abortion, a woman's going to

4:23

get an abortion. Yeah, it's just surely chosen quote

4:25

that a Hillary posted this morning. No matter what men

4:27

think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always

4:30

had them. What other women think, they always have

4:32

and they always will. Are they going to have good

4:35

ones or bad ones? Yea, and amen

4:37

to that. It's I mean just it's the same as

4:39

alcohol. I mean, don't do both together. But

4:41

like well, like if you know, we have

4:43

a drink after because you have a stressful

4:45

situation, but just well it doesn't like, yeah,

4:48

I don't bleed out. Oh yeah, don't do that because

4:51

if you know, just think of it as if prohibition happened

4:54

again, Like we all know, we're still having cocktails. It's the

4:56

same fucking thing, but only this is a lot more serious. Yeah,

4:58

so yeah, we'll keep posted, but keep

5:00

yourself posted. And also just don't

5:02

fall prey to a lot of this clickbeat that's

5:04

happening. Like things aren't taken away

5:07

yet, but we gotta

5:09

take it seriously, um, because we all

5:11

learn from taking the Trump you

5:13

know election a little too nonchalant.

5:17

That can really kick in, right, And this is all happening

5:20

so that obviously these extreme laws are being

5:22

enacted, so that this goes to the Supreme Court, and

5:24

the Supreme court Court is currently conservative

5:26

leaning UM and donating to

5:29

the a c l you whether it's a local chapter or the or

5:31

the a c l U and whole. Kurna and I are both monthly

5:33

donors to them. They do a lot of great work. They

5:35

are currently filing lawsuits against the

5:37

bodies of government of state government that are that

5:39

are trying to um pass

5:42

these bands. So that's a great resource.

5:44

If you're like, I don't know what to do if you have money, donate

5:46

to the a c l U. Yeah, because I know a lot of people like

5:48

wait for someone to put together

5:50

a fundraiser or a benefit or collection. Honestly,

5:53

that's a lot of wasted money when you're putting together

5:55

things like that. Just a direct donation is

5:57

fine. You can even the a c l U lets you set it

5:59

up so that it's adebited from your card

6:02

UM monthly. It can be five

6:04

dollars, it can be twenty dollars. It doesn't have to be a large

6:06

amount. I think people think, oh, I don't have a lot of money,

6:08

but five dollars. If we have five dollars,

6:11

it would be incredible. Um. So yeah, uh,

6:13

now back to your regularly scheduled programming. Yes,

6:16

okay, so news you know another

6:19

day in more great

6:21

news for women queen.

6:23

So obviously we're gonna talk about the

6:26

Georgia bands because there's

6:28

a lot of also inaccurate information

6:31

on the internet, which is the problem, especially if

6:33

you're getting your news primarily

6:35

from retweets or other people

6:37

posting on Instagram. So I

6:40

went to my favorite place, which is the

6:42

Washington Post website, and they did

6:44

an article that kind of broke everything down.

6:47

Um So, I pieced together the

6:49

most important pieces from this, uh

6:52

so that there can be clarity on the issue before

6:55

we all lose our minds. Most importantly,

6:57

if you this sounds so weird, but like

7:00

you have an abortion schedule that's not illegal yet,

7:02

so like don't consoler your appointment. That's

7:05

the most important thing I need you to know. Like

7:07

keep that appointment, honey. Um

7:11

So, abortion legislation in Georgia

7:13

and Alabama ascended in a news cycle this

7:15

week, with George's governor signing a quote

7:17

heartbeat ble into law um last tusday

7:20

and Alabama Senate postponing until

7:23

uh I guess this week it's a vote on a near total

7:25

abortion ban. The Georgia law will

7:27

ban abortions after a doctor is able

7:29

to detect a fetal heartbeat in the

7:31

womb, usually at about six weeks before

7:33

many women know they are pregnant. It was one

7:35

of the nation's most stringent proposals

7:38

until the all out

7:40

ban introduced in Alabama. Wait

7:42

one up the Alabama you never let

7:44

us down. Under

7:47

the proposed Alabama bill, doctors

7:49

would not be able to perform the procedure once of fetus

7:51

is in utero. That version caught

7:53

national tension because the bill

7:55

that passed in the House allowed for a single

7:58

exception in cases involving a sea vious

8:00

health risk to the unborn child's

8:02

mother. Cases of rape and incest where

8:05

not exempt, as they are in

8:07

other states. But the abortion

8:09

bills are not simple in Georgia. You have to go

8:11

down a rabbit hole and have to be a

8:13

lawyer to understand what you're reading, which is,

8:16

you know, America's favorite thing to do, because

8:18

basically, then you're just fucking over lower

8:21

income income people, which we

8:23

do almost across the board and everything.

8:27

Since Tuesday, fear has spread, confusing

8:29

further reporting on the bills. Information

8:31

has been misconstrued, criminal penalties have been

8:33

misstated, and social media platforms

8:35

have morphed into prime false narrative

8:37

territory, which is so important, especially as young people,

8:40

because we're on that so much and so

8:42

much of that uh information

8:44

is incorrect. Just because someone with a blue

8:46

check mark post something does not mean it's accurate. That

8:48

goes for myself, for Christina, for the thing like you've

8:50

gotta double check everything. Okay, really

8:53

really really important because this is just a

8:55

game of telephone and it's real fucked

8:57

up. Uh. And while there has been much

8:59

attention on the issue of bands on early stage abortions,

9:01

women who miscarry are not going to

9:04

be sent to prison for life. Okay,

9:07

So that's a big thing rum where that was going around

9:09

the internet. Uh. And it's just

9:11

not true. So let's correct the record. Abortion

9:13

is not outlawed right now. Neither

9:16

Alabama's proposed ban nor Georgie's

9:18

abortion law is currently in effect.

9:21

That Georgia law is scheduled to become enforceable

9:23

in though everyone in America

9:26

expects it will be challenged in court before

9:28

then, uh after row

9:31

the lost history of the abortion debate,

9:34

courts may block it uh from being

9:36

enforced. Even in the bill

9:39

introduced in Alabama was tabled because

9:42

it was not passed, there is nothing to

9:44

enforce. Other states, including Mississippi

9:46

and Ohio recently past heart beat

9:49

UH laws. Neither state's law is

9:51

currently in effect either. Um

9:54

m uh.

9:57

The currently I'm just like some people are talking here, I'm

9:59

like, blah bla blah blah blah. The bill. The

10:01

bill must pass through the Senate and then the government must

10:03

sign it. You know. That's we learned that with Schoolhouse

10:06

Rock. Uh. Several states have signed

10:08

abortion legislation into law, but any

10:10

law that has moved through the courts has ultimately been

10:12

blocked or struck down. And

10:15

a lot of people are also confident that the a c LU

10:17

will be able to overturn these laws because they violate

10:20

decades of Supreme Court laws, which

10:22

is important. Again, big fan

10:24

of the a c l U, even though they've been a little

10:26

bit puss used lately with some things. Uh.

10:29

It's I give them a monthly donation.

10:32

Uh, and that's like really an

10:34

organization that's going to be looking out for

10:37

things that we've done so that, you know, Republicans can't

10:39

just swoop in and be like, we have full control

10:41

of your fucking womb. Now. Additionally,

10:44

women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized

10:46

on Like other Stags, which has passed limited

10:48

abortion bills such as bands

10:50

on the types of abortion procedure and

10:52

just stational age of the fetus, Alabama's

10:55

proposed bill isn't all out beyond

10:57

on abortion if it happens, okay. The bill

10:59

is very simple. It's not about birth control

11:01

or the morning after pill. Uh.

11:03

It's not about allowing abortion once the woman

11:06

is pregnant. The entire bill was designed

11:08

to overturn Roe v. Wade

11:10

and allow states to decide what is

11:12

best for them. Okay, But the bill

11:15

explicitly states that women are exempt from

11:17

criminal end civil liability, a

11:19

tenant that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly

11:21

reinforced. In my bill, women

11:23

would not, under any circumstances, face

11:26

jail time if they got an abortion. Instead,

11:28

the law targets doctors who can

11:30

be prosecuted for performing an abortion

11:33

of felon, a felony punishable by

11:35

up to ninety nine years imprisonment.

11:38

Of course, that's still putting ship people in

11:40

jeopardy. And then moving onto the Georgia law

11:42

is more complex. Like Alabama, it explicitly

11:44

states that doctors who perform abortions will

11:47

be prosecuted. It is clear about the penalties.

11:50

The bill is more vague about the prosecution

11:52

or non prosecution of the actual women.

11:55

Uh. But like people like Slate. Like

11:57

Slate, for instance, they inaccurately

12:01

published a headline that said Georgia just criminalized

12:03

abortion. Women who terminate their

12:05

pregnancies would receive life in

12:07

prison. It suggested that under the

12:09

Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies

12:12

would be prosecuted and sentenced to either

12:14

life in prison or death, which is incorrect.

12:16

Hb uh. For ad one could

12:18

not be used to successfully prosecute

12:21

women, but if a women woman had

12:23

a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an

12:25

investigation looking at whether someone

12:27

performed and a legal abortion on her.

12:30

Georgie's law does not unequivocally say that women

12:32

are exempt, but legal experts points to areas

12:34

of Georgia's being a code which have specific

12:36

defenses for women, including those who miscarry.

12:39

So basically, like, we're just trying to undo

12:41

Roe v. Wade and uh by

12:43

trying by passing these crazy laws that

12:45

are going to be challenged with the Supreme Court. Yeah, and they're just

12:48

trying to make it so like basically, like, the fetus

12:50

is a person, and you can't kill And once

12:52

you determine a fetus as a person, you can't

12:54

kill the fetus because you can't kill people, because that's

12:56

murder. Like that's what they're trying to do basically,

12:59

So they're trying to get like as earlier, like fucking

13:01

sixteen weeks, six weeks, like just as a sap

13:04

basically. Um. And there's a Daily

13:06

Beast article by Marlo Stern who uh

13:08

covers John Oliver's coverage on his show

13:10

last week tonight. It's one of my favorite shows. Anything.

13:13

I've talked about this before, like the the abortion

13:15

argument. Here is something that makes me so

13:17

angry that oftentimes I it's hard for me to

13:19

properly articulate, um, how

13:21

I feel without sounding too mad, in which

13:24

case it gives my words very little meaning. But

13:26

I really like this article. Um. John

13:28

Oliver called it a draconian bill.

13:31

Um, it's a game of Thrones. Reference explained that the

13:33

legislation gives fetus natural person

13:36

status, allowing it to be entitled to

13:38

child support, claimed as a dependent on tax

13:40

returns, and included in George's population,

13:42

and the only exceptions to the bill, or the

13:44

cases where people would be allowed

13:46

to have abortions are due to fatal deformity,

13:49

if the mother's life is in jeopardy, or cases

13:51

of rape or incests corroborated by our police

13:53

report. So this is saying that the those are

13:56

for the Georgia bill, and I gotta look that up. Um

13:59

Uh, that's not all. However, Alabama is attempting

14:01

to push through a bill that would ban abortions

14:03

at every stage of the pregnancy and charge

14:05

doctors with up to ninety nine years. As you said,

14:07

um, and then all of our quotes.

14:09

It's completely fucking nonsense. And if you're sensing a

14:11

pattern here, that's just because this year states

14:13

have introduced more than two fifty bills

14:15

restricting abortion access. It's pretty

14:18

clear now with the conservative Supreme Court,

14:20

lawmakers are taking every shot they can

14:22

to get a case that might end up overturning Roe v.

14:24

Wade, and they're going to keep trying, which is why

14:26

it is an incumbent on all of

14:29

us to pay close attention uh to

14:31

this issue. And there

14:33

is a a woman had tweeted out, so a fucker

14:35

had sent me a screenshot of this on Instagram. They deemed

14:37

it to me. Um. This person's Twitter

14:40

handle is uh carliss c and

14:42

she says, if a fetus is a person at six weeks

14:44

pregnant, uh, is that when the child

14:47

support starts? Is that when you can't deport

14:49

the mother because she's carrying a US citizen? Can

14:51

I ensure a six week fetus and collect

14:53

if I miscarry? Just figuring if we're going

14:55

all in here, we should go all in um.

14:58

And then I liked this quote by Alexandria

15:00

Okazia Cortez where she says most

15:03

of the men writing these anti choice heartbeat bills

15:05

don't know the first thing about a woman's body outside

15:08

of the things they want from it. And

15:10

I was like, Yo, that's very

15:12

true down and and and kind

15:14

of like in natural what Roe v. Wade is all about

15:16

and why it's so important is that it's not

15:19

just like yeah, abortion, It's

15:21

like that no one should be able to decide

15:23

why a woman should have an abortion, Like that's

15:25

the thing, Like they're kind of picking and choosing reasons why it's

15:27

okay, and like, oh in this instance and that instance,

15:30

well, it's not really your fucking choice.

15:32

It's the woman who's carrying the fetus's

15:36

choice, so relax yourselves.

15:38

And then, um, there's an article

15:41

covering actress Melissa Mulatto

15:43

ignit it's social media with a tweet

15:46

calling for women to join her in a sex strike to protest

15:48

strict abortion bands passed by Republican controlled

15:50

letislatures. The former star urged

15:53

women in the tweet Friday to Night to stop

15:55

having sex quote until we get bodily autonomy

15:58

back. Her tweet came Dames after Georgia

16:00

became the fourth state, and he wants to ban abortions. A lot

16:02

of people can to diverge after a few are

16:04

beat it. Huh, a lot of people can to divergeons if

16:06

that's the fin I know. And and then

16:09

a couple of people had tweeted us like what do you think

16:11

of this? And uh, and my initial thought

16:13

was like, Um, I don't want to

16:15

stop having but

16:18

I still support the cause. But I'm not gonna

16:20

fuck a an anti choice person.

16:23

Yeah no, I mean yeah, that's actually and that's

16:25

interest brings up an interesting topic of conversation.

16:27

I mean, because I wouldn't. That is a deal breaker for me personally.

16:29

Me too as well, because that one is important

16:32

because it's like if you're when you are having sex with someone,

16:35

one of the things that could happen is you could get

16:37

pregnant, and you need to know how the other person

16:39

feels About's one of the first things I brought up with

16:42

James certainly, and like again

16:44

for me is a deal breaker just because it's like, that's

16:47

not just an opinion. That's like that

16:49

is two people creating a life and then disagreeing on

16:51

how to candle it. You know, uh, you

16:53

know, because it's like, you know, like I said, Jed Dean

16:55

Perlman has a has a funny joke about being

16:58

like, you know, kind of is murder from well,

17:00

it's like, I mean like living things. It's like, what is a living thing?

17:02

Like there's also mites living in your eyebrows in

17:06

embryo six weeks, but

17:08

it's not going to feed it exactly. So like things

17:10

are so like living but it's like, you know,

17:13

answer like lands of living plants

17:15

are living again, Like yeah, mtes all over your face.

17:17

It's like, I mean, what are we talking about as

17:19

far as like I don't know what to tell you. Yeah,

17:21

I mean I think when when we were talking about humans

17:24

and animals are included into this

17:26

too. It's like quality of life, uh,

17:29

and having emotions

17:31

and and those kind of things, and like an embryo is

17:33

not doing that. Yeah. One of the

17:35

guys I was sucking um. The first time we

17:37

ever hung out. I asked him about what his stance

17:40

was on the abortion, uh, just

17:42

abortion, and he was he was against

17:45

it. But after a lot of talking

17:47

and I just I was just curious, what, what why

17:49

he thought that and what led him to think that. But

17:51

then at the end of the conversation he was like, look, it's ultimately

17:53

your choice. I'm like, that's all I need to know, all

17:55

I need to know, right, Absolutely,

17:58

Hey, come see us live do It Denver

18:02

tonight and tomorrow eight.

18:04

We are in you at Comedy Works, one of our

18:07

favorite clubs. Come out and see us. That's

18:09

gonna be fucking Those are gonna be a fun weekend

18:11

of shows. Uh. You can go to story about

18:13

Last Night Comedy dot com slash

18:15

tours for all the ticket links for those

18:17

dates. If you're in New York City on May, Wendy

18:20

Starling and I are co hosting the May addition

18:22

of Glamour Puss at Zinc Bar in

18:25

the West Village. It's at seven thirty pm

18:27

to get their fifteen bucks. And there's a link in the description

18:29

of this episode if he wants on tickets

18:31

and two less Lonely girls.

18:34

Uh. Still tackling important

18:36

celebrity news. It's myself and rosebud

18:39

Baker. It's always uh, still

18:41

on iTunes, still on Spotify.

18:43

Nothing is moving with that. That's completely separate podcasts,

18:46

separate deal. And Uh

18:48

we had a Justin Bieber listening party because

18:50

he did make new music for the first time in

18:53

a long time. Besides

18:56

just like a verse on some random song

18:58

because that's what he's been doing for years while he's been walking

19:00

around a hotel slippers. And then next week,

19:02

we're gonna give you some really hot

19:05

Seleen Dion info. I

19:07

love Selene Dion. She's

19:09

a nutty she is Okay,

19:12

emails, emails. If you want to email us,

19:14

you can do so. It's sorry about last night show

19:16

at gmail dot com. Subject line

19:19

of this email is I made my boyfriend's

19:21

butt come and I'm interested.

19:23

Okay, she writes, boy,

19:26

oh boy, do I have a story for you.

19:29

So I started listening to your podcast about three months

19:31

ago. I'm still pretty far behind. Uh.

19:33

She's on the Jones episode from November.

19:36

If you even remember back that far, I do. I

19:38

love that episode. Anyway, I'm working my way through

19:40

the episodes, loving every second. Y'all are amazing.

19:43

Um okay, but you know that's all. Stop sucking

19:45

your dicks and get on with my story. To listen,

19:47

a little bit of potentially irreverent background info.

19:50

My boyfriend and I have been dating for four

19:52

months, so it's still new. I

19:54

have a huge sex strive since getting

19:56

off NEUVA Ring and onto the i U D. He

19:59

has a lower sex stra I've as in his last relationship

20:02

they really had sex maybe once every six

20:04

months. I unintentionally discovered his butthole

20:06

about two months ago, as in I

20:08

was just touching his taint and was

20:10

just like, okay, here we are, and then

20:12

he told me later that he really liked it.

20:15

So I started touching the outside more and

20:17

more. I didn't want to freak him out by

20:19

being like so anal beats, as

20:21

this is something I used personally. But he has

20:23

had very vanilla sex life and I didn't

20:26

know what a vibrator was until

20:28

we started, and he didn't know what a vibrator was until

20:30

we started dating. Okay, I'm trying to ease

20:32

him into sex stuff so he doesn't think I'm some crazy

20:35

person, and wasn't ready to use lube

20:37

for butt stuff, so I never really I

20:39

never really put my fingers inside in

20:41

fear of opening Pandora's box. This

20:44

morning, at like three AM, I woke

20:46

up because it's about eighty degrees in Oregon right

20:48

now, and I just started playing with my

20:50

my boyfriend because I'm always horny.

20:53

I started playing with his booty, and then I used

20:55

lube and put my two fingers to

20:57

put my fingers in parentheses to actually

20:59

in aid his butt, and started basically fingering

21:01

him like I would if I was fingering my

21:04

g spot, and he came in about five

21:07

minutes. I never knew this was possible

21:09

until I started listening and where I am now

21:11

in the podcast, it's still under debate whether

21:13

or not this can happen, but I'm here to say

21:16

it happened. I didn't even touch his dick,

21:18

and he came, probably more than he has

21:20

ever and I am pumped. The second

21:23

he came. I thought, what first thought was, I

21:25

have to tell Christina and Karen about this, but

21:27

I held off until this morning. Thanks again

21:29

for being amazing and helping me try new things.

21:31

Love you fuckers. Um, I'm proud of

21:33

you girl. Way to go, Kathy. And

21:36

also I know that I've seen

21:38

on porn there's demo videos for the and

21:40

Narrows, which is the Prostates

21:42

simulator sex toy that I talked about in

21:44

the book and I'm talking about on the podcast. Say

21:46

oh millions, I know they do. I mean I should

21:49

be a smart business lady and tell him to pay me, but whatever,

21:52

I just say, Hey, if men are having butt

21:54

orgasms from this, that's

21:56

exciting and I love that. I

21:59

know, well, yeah that's true. Um,

22:02

but yeah, I the porn

22:04

video demo that I watched, I was

22:06

like on porn Hoover or something. The guy had the narrow

22:08

sin and he was just his dick was hard.

22:10

He was just humping the air. He wasn't even touching

22:13

his dick and he came like

22:15

so hard. And one time

22:18

this guy that I was seeing, um a

22:20

couple of months ago, I milked

22:22

his brostate like I like,

22:24

because it was so much fluid that I was like wait, just

22:27

he was like I think you did. I'm like yes, um,

22:30

And it was the most insane

22:32

orgasm I've ever seen a man have and it's in my spank

22:34

bang for the rest of my life. So you

22:37

know, guys, uh, I would concourage

22:39

you to have open heart, open mind, possibly

22:41

even an open butt hole, because you never know what's going

22:43

to happen. Well, und percent if you stick your finger in

22:45

there, like I can hunt it. I totally

22:48

know that you can, Like I believe

22:50

that you can without putting your penis in anything.

22:53

Sucking calm, Like, no,

22:56

that's kind of like not even a question.

22:59

Well I didn't. I actually know that. I would think

23:01

that you'd have to touch your dick to come from your dick,

23:03

but you don't because the prostates. Yeah, but like if I connected

23:05

to this, because I was like, yeah, it really does

23:07

feel like the same as like a female g

23:10

spot kind of like when you're because when you put it,

23:12

it's like you have to stick your finger and

23:14

and then like up yeah,

23:17

and and towards the belly button and then you

23:19

then I'm like, yeah, you don't, Yeah, you probably don't need to do

23:21

anything else. You probably are because just it's

23:23

just weird to have like two people there on like a penis

23:26

out. But yeah,

23:28

and I have long fingers. I got these, So

23:32

I am pretty good at hit in it. And let me

23:34

tell you, it is a sight to say I

23:36

have short ones. It's still quick. You can still do it. You

23:39

have to have to use my middle finger a lot though. See

23:42

I can do this. But when I did it, like last time I did

23:44

it to a guy, it did kind of feel like I was

23:47

even though there was a dick right in front of my

23:49

face. It kind of felt like I was fingering a

23:51

pussy. But it was that was hot.

23:56

Yeah. I I use a lot of loupe. Oh oh,

24:00

I mean I wasn't using a loube at all. Okay,

24:03

I usually just use spit. I'm too I don't

24:06

have time for lube. Um

24:08

what am I doing here? Oh? Women in business? Okay?

24:11

Umot do so?

24:13

Yes we are? Uh

24:15

are we doing that first? Okay, I'm

24:19

really tired, really really having

24:21

trouble reading today. Uh. Just

24:24

a reminder, this is the last episode

24:26

in front of the paywall, but do

24:29

not unsubscribe on iTunes or

24:31

Spotify. Keep it there. We're going to keep in

24:33

contact with you and additionally,

24:36

uh, we are going to have some

24:38

rotating episodes, including

24:40

new ones that you'll be able to find sometimes

24:42

on iTunes, Like we cannot tell you enough,

24:45

Like we want to stay connected to people

24:47

who primarily the people who are

24:50

just cannot access Luminary,

24:52

the people who chose not to. As a different

24:54

story. Uh, the

24:56

app is now available in the US,

24:58

the UK, Canada, Austria. All yeah

25:00

again, if your country is not on that list, let

25:02

Luminary know they have been. Really, even

25:05

if they don't answer as a people leave me, they are

25:07

making a list of this. They know, they're aware of

25:09

it. Uh. Their social media handle is here

25:11

at here Luminary across all platforms,

25:14

and they're working NonStop to make the

25:16

app accessible uh for everyone.

25:19

And then next Friday May uh

25:22

is going to start the new episodes of

25:25

Guys We Fucked as part

25:27

of the premium Luminary

25:29

content. There are so many other great

25:31

podcasts besides ours. As a part of that

25:34

premium content. I do specifically

25:36

want to shout out Lena Dunham's podcast because

25:38

Christina and I got early access to

25:40

one of her episodes and we're able to listen to it. And

25:42

like you guys, you know, I'm very transparent about the fact

25:45

that I am so sick of podcasts. I do

25:47

them for a living, so I don't really listen to them. This

25:49

is a podcast I'm gonna listen to sounds

25:52

so good. It's called the

25:54

C word, and the C is crazy and it's

25:56

all about how throughout

25:59

history you women have been called

26:01

crazy as a act

26:03

of violence against

26:05

us. I meet that a little more dramatic than it

26:07

needed to be called me crazy.

26:10

Um. Yeah. And there's other great podcast graders

26:12

that are going to be part of the premium Luminary subscription,

26:14

so you're not just getting us. In addition to Lena's

26:17

podcasts, there's podcast by Roxane Gay, Trevor,

26:19

Noah Russell Brand. There's a lot of

26:22

really cool exclusive content by Guy

26:24

roz Um. Hannibal Bursts is moving

26:26

his podcast over to Luminary and I'm really excited.

26:28

Yeah, and this is the last we're gonna hear about it if you don't

26:30

want to hear about it anymore. And the pay well

26:32

are the Luminary app ore back catalog,

26:35

So every single episode of Guys We Fun is moving

26:37

to the Luminary app But that's her phrase. You don't have

26:39

to be a subscriber to Luminary to to access

26:41

the entire back catalogs. If you're wondering where the funk that went?

26:44

Why you're only seeing ten episodes on iTunes or Spotify,

26:47

This is because you got to download the luminary app. Absolutely,

26:49

but those will be rotine. We'll we'll try to keep you,

26:51

you know, as a breast of everything

26:54

in guys we fucked world as possible, uh

26:57

while still giving way extra

26:59

premium content to our subscribers, because

27:02

that's what we that's the plan on you know. Um,

27:05

and then going forward, if you

27:07

you know, love us and I

27:10

wanna leave us a review on

27:12

iTunes, we do appreciate that because

27:14

those chart positions still do matter for

27:16

people to uh, you

27:18

know, be introduced to the wonderful world of guys

27:20

we fucked that you guys are listening to

27:23

right now. Um, So we're continuing the contest.

27:25

We got a bunch of submissions last week. Again.

27:27

All you have to do is give us a five star rating and

27:30

a positive sentence just you could just be

27:32

a sentence. It doesn't have to be a whole term paper, just

27:35

like you know, why you like guys who funked? What keeps

27:37

you tuning in? It could be funny, it could be sad, it could

27:39

be poignant, whatever it is um and

27:41

leave that on iTunes and then take a screenshot

27:44

of it after you write the hashtag scoot

27:46

scoot, so we know it's new in the

27:49

review exactly, and you're gonna email

27:51

that screenshot to sorry about last night's show

27:53

at gmail dot com with the subject

27:55

line scoot scoot and then just conclude your name

27:57

and phone number. You'll be entered to

28:01

win a fifteen minute therapy session

28:03

with Christina and myself that we will

28:05

if you want, record and include in a

28:07

bonus episode that will be released

28:09

to everyone, and uh,

28:12

it's gonna be super fun. And also if you just want to leave a

28:14

review and you don't want to talk to us, you can do that

28:16

too, just don't include your phone number or like literally

28:18

write in the email I don't want to hear from you, you dumbtches,

28:21

Like thanks, we don't care, but we really

28:23

appreciate it as a free thing that you can do, and

28:25

uh, yeah, thank you very much. Yea

28:28

women in business, let's

28:30

promote some I would like

28:32

to promote fucker.

28:34

Gabrielle Rees. She's the chef and owner

28:37

of One Great Vegan and this

28:39

is what she had written to us about

28:41

her business. This business I own and operate is called

28:44

One Great Vegan. We specialize in plant

28:46

based catering, meal prep and uh

28:49

live cooking classes, demo and demos all

28:51

throughout Texas. I also have the joy of

28:53

hosting a weekly cooking show called

28:55

The Colorful Home Cooking Show, which you can

28:57

find on YouTube, Instagram, and vim oh.

29:00

I started One Great Vegan because I was

29:02

weighed down by the pressure to count calories,

29:04

restrict myself from food for multiple days,

29:07

and constantly judge and belittle myself

29:09

for not being as skinny or petite as my peers.

29:11

Eventually, this led to a self hating mindset

29:14

and a two year long eating disorder. Veganism

29:16

and living a plant based lifestyle saved

29:19

me from my own personal darkness,

29:21

and now I'm the healthiest and happiest I

29:23

could ever shine. One Great Vegan's

29:25

philosophy has always been to educate

29:27

and feed people sustainably sourced,

29:29

nourishing and of course mouth watering

29:31

meals and tasty treats, while healing their body

29:34

and the plant with every planet, with

29:36

every bite. We also specialize in allergy

29:38

free and specialty diet plans gluten

29:41

free, a keto, paleo, etcetera. So that

29:43

you can chow down on delicious, colorful food

29:46

no matter what allergies and diet restrictions you

29:48

may have. All in all, I love introducing

29:50

delicious plant based meals to people who

29:53

have never tried vegan cuisine, as well

29:55

as tried and true vegans

29:57

alike. If you want to find out more about

29:59

what I've got cooking, you can find me on Instagram,

30:02

Twitter, or Facebook. It's at One

30:04

Great Vegan o n e g R e A

30:07

t V e g A n uh. The YouTube

30:09

search One Great Vegan for those cooking demos,

30:11

or you can go to one Great Vegan dot

30:14

com. Yeah. Thanks. Oh

30:16

wait, I was coughing during the part where she says,

30:18

is it only can she only get the meals in Texas?

30:21

Um, she's she's based in Texas. So

30:23

I'm assuming that usuallymail

30:26

those things. Ye yeah yeah, so I would think

30:28

on her social I don't know that we'll ask her because

30:30

I have I get a vegan meal delivery service, but

30:33

I would like I'll switch to yours. Yeah.

30:35

Um, I Crid and I have eaten at

30:37

a lot of vegan restaurants when we go on tour, and I'm like, fun,

30:39

this ship is really good yeah, like it's really

30:41

good. And I never have a fucking

30:44

stomach ache after I eat vegan food. And I always

30:46

have a stomach ache. See, I always have a stomach

30:48

a gafter vegan food. And You're like, what the funk is

30:50

this? Well, yeah, I'm just trying to I'm trying to work

30:52

towards like full vegetarian and I'm like very

30:55

tired. Uh so whatever,

30:57

Um, okay, my business

31:00

us that I want to highlight. Uh is

31:02

someone that my friendly hendrix turned

31:04

me on too, who listens. Um,

31:07

it's Rebecca Allen. Uh really

31:10

talks about these all the time. It's really funny.

31:13

She makes basically nude pumps

31:15

for people of color because like, you know, the

31:17

the nude pump very in right now, but

31:21

nude nude like

31:23

what we would call skin color, but only if

31:25

you're white obviously, you know. So

31:27

it's like that's the issue. So it's like a look to

31:30

have a pump that is the same color as your

31:32

skin. But when we say nude, like nude

31:35

means why exactly.

31:38

So it's not like that there's like a

31:40

lot of people find that to be my favorite

31:42

word problematic. But it's

31:44

like, so this woman and she's a woman of color,

31:47

UH created this line of

31:50

nude pumps for all skin types. She

31:52

says, as a black woman working in finance, I always

31:54

wanted to look professional without sacrificing clean,

31:56

sophisticated style. I love color, but

31:59

I never work because and find the perfect nude pump

32:01

to complete my outfits. Frustrated by

32:03

the lack of options, I scoured swatches

32:05

and borrowed my friend's feet to find five

32:07

nude shades to complement women from

32:10

dark to light, particularly all my brown

32:12

ladies. You can, of course wear any

32:14

UH and all shades you choose. Let's good to know

32:17

developed the new pump to be timeless and wearable

32:20

all year long. It's also wearable all day long with

32:22

a cushioned insult and a seventy five millimeter

32:24

heel. I want you to walk into your office

32:26

with confidence. I want you to give one less thing,

32:28

to give you one less thing to think about when you're rushing

32:31

to work in the morning. I believe we perform

32:33

our best when we bring our true selves to work.

32:35

I believe we are unstoppable when we

32:37

feel comfortable in our own skin. I love

32:39

this because it's a woman in business

32:41

dressing women in business so it's like double

32:44

what we're doing. Uh. If you wanna get

32:46

a pair of your shoes or just find out more about her,

32:48

it's Rebecca hyphen allen uh

32:51

dot com and it's Rebecca R E

32:53

B E C c A U hyphen

32:56

a L L e N check

32:58

it out. Yeah. I also like

33:01

that she's like, Hey, this is an issue that I don't

33:03

like, I don't want to fix it, and then she fucking did. Exactly.

33:06

It's a little and and I think that's a great idea,

33:09

a thing of like kind of like a microaggression or like something

33:11

that just like I've certainly

33:14

never even thought of that. And then I was

33:16

like, oh duh, because like I didn't I just think of

33:18

like Noudah's a color. But you're like, oh, yeah, it

33:20

is implying like that like the right skin

33:22

cone or like even like I think Raola changed

33:24

that a long time ago with like the skin color

33:26

crans because like you know that peach

33:29

color. Uh. And also like there's so many

33:31

different shades of human

33:33

skin color, even if you are white within that

33:35

like it's just like it's silly and

33:38

it is like those little things that get into kids heads and

33:40

then make them feel weird about stuff

33:42

that you should feel proud of, not weird about, oh,

33:46

personal stuff. I don't

33:48

know, so I don't. I feel

33:50

like whenever I go on a sexual adventure,

33:52

I hesitate to like

33:54

I don't want to. I feel we're talking about on

33:57

the podcast, especially beforehand, because

33:59

I don't want any like the person that I'm doing

34:01

it with to think that I'm doing it just to talk about

34:03

they're part of some experiment or show. Is it's

34:05

certainly not why and I and also I just don't

34:07

want to divulge any personal info about

34:10

these people. But I want

34:12

to get good. This is this long story,

34:14

but the point is I really want to try

34:17

DP okay, and I

34:19

don't know how or where to start. I have Tristan

34:21

Tarabino's Guide, Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex

34:23

for Women, and I'm reading it, but I just want to throw

34:25

it out there if there's any people

34:28

out there in listener land who who

34:31

have tips or advice on double

34:33

penetration sex, because

34:36

I kind of I do. I want to. I

34:39

want to do it, and there's a scenario

34:41

that will possibly happen in the future for me

34:43

that in which case I can, and there's

34:46

two living people are with like with like always

34:48

like with one what could it be like dildo and humans

34:51

to humans? Yeah, I was like, I'm just wondering.

34:53

Yeah, no to fair question, fair question. Oh

34:55

yeah, because I would fo a sex doll in it. Again. Actually,

34:57

that's a great way to practice DP, like one regular

35:00

dick and then a sex doll. Well yeah, exactly, because then

35:02

you don't have the stress because it does like that, because

35:04

like with two humans, to me, that's like two stressors

35:07

rather than just like handling

35:09

one stressor at a time and then combining them.

35:11

True. True, yeah, But every time

35:13

I watch it in porn, I'm like this, it's

35:16

just poorn. Porn sex and real life sex are

35:18

just so different. And um, I know,

35:20

I know personally know a lot of porn stars,

35:23

and but I want to I want to see

35:25

if there's any non porn stars

35:27

uh out there who do double

35:29

penetration sex, which if you don't

35:32

know, means a dick, a penis

35:34

in your butt and then a penis in your vagina

35:37

um for anybody to know. And uh,

35:39

I just feel like, uh, I would

35:41

appreciate advice from an everyday gale. But do

35:43

you like a penis in your butt? Yeah? I do. I

35:46

really do. I have a butt plug that I bought

35:48

because I really I do like

35:50

a penis in my butt. I really do. UM

35:53

and I the idea of being filled

35:56

up really intrigues me a

35:58

lot. But I also, you

36:01

know, last time, the last time I did anal was not

36:03

with with the exit, was with another person, and

36:05

it was pretty good. I

36:07

really liked it. So but I want to get I want to get better

36:10

at the anal thing I'm figuring out with this book, but

36:12

the dep thing, I just feel like there's a lot

36:14

more things you have to be aware

36:16

of, which you know, also to a lot of

36:18

best practices. Just trying it to these two

36:21

guys that you haven't know each other. Oh

36:23

yeah, yeah. I was like yeah, I

36:25

was like, they gotta be friends too. Oh yeah, No, this

36:27

was already it was already discussed the point where

36:29

I'm like, oh, this could actually be a possibility, I

36:32

was in right. So yeah,

36:34

if there's any every day ladies

36:36

out there who have done double penetration and you wanna

36:38

give you girl some tips, you know, it's like show gmail

36:40

dot com every day lady, yeah, and

36:42

please write And I'm just line, I'm

36:44

an everyday lady. Blazer

36:48

as you type me the email, Oh my god, I feels like a fucking

36:50

commercial him an everyday lady

36:52

and I love a penis in my vagina.

36:55

And also my ask, would you ever be interested

36:57

in trying that? I mean, what

36:59

I ever be life?

37:02

Life? Life could be long. We

37:04

don't know. Maybe

37:08

I get bored for sure. You know it's

37:11

for me. It's not that there will be something.

37:13

It's not the two things. It's the two

37:15

people is the issue. Will there

37:18

ever be a time in my life when I can find

37:20

two people who I want to be naked with

37:22

who then get along with each other. That feels

37:24

like a lot of talking, And

37:28

I mean, I just don't even like. I

37:30

mean, Tommy says something really funny to me at

37:32

his birthday party this uh

37:35

weekend. He was like, I was

37:37

just telling him, like, you know, tales from the

37:39

straight dating world, and

37:41

he's like, is are these like

37:44

just the guys you date or

37:46

is this straight men? And I go, you know

37:48

what, that's a great question

37:50

because I've only dated straight

37:52

men and I've only been me, so

37:55

I don't know. I don't know

37:57

the answer factors that He

37:59

was like, it's just people not having their ship

38:01

together. And I mean a lot of them are like what I would categorize

38:04

as straight things. And I mean I certainly do

38:06

know people who,

38:09

uh straight men who

38:11

don't fit into that category

38:14

and like have their ship together, but they are

38:16

kind of feminine. So I

38:18

wonder if it is like some kind of like

38:21

inherently masculine trait to or

38:24

part of what makes you come off

38:26

as masculine is like being

38:29

nurtured by a woman.

38:31

I will say, just from my experience, the

38:34

one person i'm that I'm

38:38

fucking is a straight guy who

38:40

is very masculine, and it really does have a ship together,

38:42

like legit, and like one of the things I'm

38:44

like, oh, why I'm attracted to him when I want to suck him

38:46

is like, oh, man, you don't need my help at all. You

38:49

got this right. But you guys are not in a

38:51

relationship yet might be interesting too, interested

38:53

to see how independent

38:55

he was and like how much he took care of you and

38:58

did not need care

39:00

from you. And actually one of the guys that I saw

39:02

who did didn't have a ship that was

39:04

kind of like a mess I would say was also

39:06

feminine. So maybe like more on the feminine

39:09

side, which I mean I

39:11

like that part. I liked the guys. I like guys who are kind

39:13

of feminine. But he didn't have his ship

39:16

to yet. I don't know, Well, it doesn't mean that someone

39:18

who is who is a feminine straight

39:20

man cannot Like that doesn't mean that they

39:22

all have their ship together. But I was just

39:24

yeah, I was like a person who does. But

39:27

it's in specific ways because it's like

39:29

sometimes people are very mentally together or

39:32

like they're very smart, or they have a good job,

39:34

but it's like everything can't be together. Not that

39:36

I am completely together, but honestly, like I'm

39:38

just not the kinds

39:41

of issues like that I'm presenting them to a partner, Like I

39:43

really have other people or

39:45

professionals or ways that I handle all

39:47

the things of myself, and like I'll run things by

39:49

people if I trust them, But I'm not

39:51

really leaning on anyone that

39:54

I date for anything

39:57

that I do not have complete

39:59

access to, you know, outside the relationship,

40:01

which is another it's like a safety that I

40:03

also create, so

40:07

that yeah, well it's like it's safety because it's like

40:10

there's too many stories of you know, people

40:13

you know who have been married for twenty years. The guy walks

40:15

out and then you don't know how to do anything.

40:18

You know, you didn't get a college degree because you were

40:20

in love. Like this has happened so many times. It's present

40:23

situations like in my family, not my immediate

40:25

family, but like and it's just like I am not not

40:27

It's not about like you know, leaning

40:30

in or not being willing to fall in love. I'm very

40:32

willing to do all these things and actually quite romantic

40:34

in my personal life. But it's like I'm

40:36

also not a fucking ediot. Humans are humans.

40:38

Thoughts change, feelings change, Like, I'm

40:41

not going to be one of these a bitshes

40:43

left in the dusty just not

40:45

happening. I've worked too fucking hard. That's

40:48

smart. Fuck anyone who thinks that's happening,

40:50

Well, now you are. You are the opposite of a codependent.

40:52

And I think everybody should be like that. Yeah,

40:55

everyone, everyone should be like that, hopefully

40:57

and again like and it's like also like I also don't get

40:59

off on like people needing ship for me, it's I

41:02

I will help, but it's not my favorite thing.

41:05

You know. Well yeah, because then it's like you

41:07

are feeding if you if you need, if

41:09

you're giving them the things that they need when

41:11

it's something that they should be providing for themselves. You're

41:13

you're creating a relationship. That's code, it's

41:16

a name, it's enabling. I even think it's cute

41:18

when Alfred can do ship for himself, you know, because

41:20

I'm like, oh my little boys growing up, Like good for

41:23

you, Like oh you got all you got all your toy or you've got

41:25

this thing that you needed, or like you brought a blanket onto

41:27

a fucking cheer. I don't. Sometimes it does things, and I don't even

41:29

know how he does it, honestly. Um,

41:32

So, you know, and personally all I

41:34

kind of wanted to talk about this because I've been talking a lot

41:37

about stuff and I really actually had a great week

41:39

and I felt really good and and

41:41

uh drank and didn't get sad,

41:43

and that's always a good sign. Um,

41:45

you know, just get just a dull thing

41:47

over here. But I was in uh

41:49

Sephora, and you know, makeup

41:52

is a big part of my life, not just because you

41:54

know, it's not just because I need it. I

41:57

truly love it. I

41:59

truly love I truly love makeup. I'm not anything

42:01

right now. And I looked at my skin in the mirror, and I was like, bit, you

42:04

look greatly. I look tired though, Um,

42:06

but I am tired. Awakes, I

42:09

put a little I put a little buzz like

42:11

buzz cream under my eye, like the caffeine chip.

42:13

Uh what's yeah, something about like origins.

42:15

So it's just like wakes you up with Jin sing. It wakes

42:19

Jen sing. I'm current and I'm awake and you

42:22

have a fever and even like my fucking voice is

42:24

all sucked up. Um. But I I

42:27

always go into either like Alta or Sephora,

42:30

uh, and I ask, hey,

42:32

guys, um, this is the brand I

42:34

like, or like, this is the product I'm looking for.

42:36

Who makes a good, cruelty free version of that?

42:39

Just kind of a reminder, Um, I don't

42:41

I am animal crazy in my personal life, which you'll see

42:43

on Twitter. I try not to. That's not what this podcast

42:45

is about. And I don't want to be one of those annoying people. Uh.

42:48

But I think there are ways, you know, because it's

42:50

kind of like we're all like trying to be better in little

42:53

ways. Um, and testing

42:55

on animals as far as makeup and hair products

42:58

are concerned. To me, like there's no art A

43:00

meant that you could have that it is necessary

43:02

because obviously with animal testing sometimes it's

43:04

for um medicine for humans,

43:06

and I don't agree with that either, but again

43:09

that's a that's something that I could understand

43:11

your your side on it. Uh, you don't

43:13

need to put my scara in a bunny's eye, Like, that's

43:15

just not a thing you need to be doing. And

43:17

I do want to tell you, like I know, you know, I

43:20

know, like ignorance is bliss and we think

43:22

these you know, maybe it's just rats or whatever. I

43:24

want to be very clear. They're still widely

43:27

testing on bunnies and dogs.

43:29

Beagles are the most tested on one

43:31

of the most tested on animals because

43:34

they don't fight back when

43:36

you torture them. And I am using a fucking

43:39

tactic right now to make it fear

43:41

of feelings. It is a true

43:44

and it's and it's just you know what, because it's pure

43:46

laziness. If you're not and I'm not saying, go through

43:48

your medicine cabinet, throy everything you already

43:51

have it, it's more wasteful to throw it away,

43:53

use it. But next time you go, it's just something

43:55

to keep in mind because even if

43:57

you love a brand. There's so many rands

44:00

and there's so many really really good brands.

44:02

To my favorites are Tart and cat Bondi that

44:06

make products for your skin, for your

44:08

hair, everything, and this goes for uh, you know,

44:10

your cleanser, all this kind of stuff. It's just

44:12

stuff that does not need to be tested on animals.

44:14

And most times the reasons companies haven't

44:16

switched over is just because of money and

44:19

people are still buying their products. And people are still buying their

44:21

products because they you have the powers

44:23

of consumer it's really easy. Um. There's

44:25

a bunch of websites if you need to make a list

44:27

ahead of time. There's Cruelty Free International

44:29

dot org. There's Leaping Bunny,

44:31

which a lot of times you'll see on the back of the bottles

44:34

of a little bunny um, and then there's

44:36

also Cruelty Free Kitty dot com.

44:39

And basically it's really easy to look for because

44:41

it's something that brands want to boast about. So

44:43

if you don't see a clear mention that we

44:45

do not test on animals, Cruelty Free or

44:47

the Leaping Bunny symbol, if you can

44:49

rush the shore they're testing on animals, because if

44:51

they weren't. They would want everyone to know because

44:54

it's like a big thing because no one like, no one's

44:56

going into a store like, hey, I only want

44:58

products that test on you

45:00

know, like Ted Bundy's not chopping. And for

45:03

once, this is a bragworthy thing for a company to

45:05

to put in front of the brand, because yeah, use it

45:07

all you want marketed. If it makes you sell more product,

45:09

great, because it's better to support them. And

45:12

if the consumers punish the companies that by not

45:14

buying the product that do tests on animals, that's

45:16

the only message you need to really say. Yeah, And

45:18

there are like some really uh sketchy

45:21

little things that people will say, Like I, for instance, when I

45:23

was in college, worked at Victoria's Secret

45:25

Beauty and I don't know if they do it anymore because

45:27

I'm, you know, traumatized by working at this for various

45:30

reasons, because it's the worst company

45:32

I've ever worked for. I like literally cleaned

45:34

up like animal and human faces,

45:36

and I'd rather do that. Well, I used to work at daycare center.

45:39

I think you meant at Victoria's Secrets.

45:43

I'm sure it happened, but I worked at the Short Hills Mall, so

45:45

it was like a little bit nicer, but

45:47

yeah, no, like just the worst. Everything

45:49

about it is the fucking worst. I don't

45:52

even I don't buy things there. An every woman

45:54

I know is worked there, which is at least five close friends,

45:56

same reaction. I even know men that

45:58

worked there in the in the box is in

46:00

the back. They said they hide

46:02

the men in the back. That's the only thing Victoria's Secret has going

46:04

for them. They hide the men in the back. Um,

46:09

they would like to put it on some of their products.

46:11

That was like, this final product is not tested

46:13

on animals, which means along the way

46:15

everything we put it into it, we put

46:17

in a bunny's eye, so the prototype was tested

46:19

on the final thing. We didn't because

46:22

we want to sell it to you with that. So

46:25

it's fucking crafty legal wording like

46:27

that that you've got a lot to watch out for. But again,

46:29

it's so easy. There's so many amazing

46:31

products, Like I pride myself

46:33

on doing a great job with my makeup, so

46:35

like and you can see it's sucking. It's cruelty free.

46:38

The hairship cruelty free. Like just and and

46:40

again like cleaning, I didn't even go into cleaning products. I'm

46:42

just trying to do this step by step. But I was like, this is something

46:44

that I just think it's not annoying and it's

46:46

just such an easy little change that you

46:48

can make in your life. Uh.

46:51

And then well, and then it makes the bunnies and the dogs

46:54

really happy. And I also want to give a shout out

46:56

to the podcast Snatch Beauty our friend

46:58

Jackie. She's vegan and

47:00

and it really highlights a lot of amazing

47:02

makeup products if you're into makeup. She's a great person

47:04

to follow with like at

47:06

Match Beauty and a t Yes

47:09

that's me. Yeah. Do you guys do what you can? Um

47:12

our guest today. She is the senior

47:14

writer Senior women's reporter Excuse Me

47:16

at Huffington Post. Her book, A

47:19

Girl's Guide to Joining the Resistance of Feminist

47:21

Handbook on Fighting for Good is out now.

47:23

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Emma

47:25

Gray Candles

47:29

out. I don't even want to see your

47:31

face no more. I refused to be

47:33

a sad space no more.

47:36

I don't even want to try with

47:41

your devout I was dedicated

47:43

to I

47:46

was rushing it, I was sad and on the

47:48

World War, I was said the world a lie

47:53

you what did

47:55

fight for me? You'd

47:58

rather aware say with

48:28

Emma Gray. Hello, Hi,

48:31

Hi, Um you're single currently

48:35

single dating data dat

48:37

dating. So not in that

48:39

magical stressful in between stageful.

48:43

It's dating as dating in New York

48:46

City when you are

48:48

well. I guess everybody's googleble googleble,

48:50

some more, some more than others. First, sure, everyone

48:53

is there, but some of us are, yes,

48:56

more more so, and I think like you and I were

48:58

more there. Yeah, exactly. And

49:00

I always when I got back on the dating

49:02

apps or got on the dating apps for the first time in my life,

49:05

I was like, Man, they're gonna google

49:07

me. It's gonna be weird. I'm gonna have to do this. So

49:10

what I get on hinges. Some guys will just send me

49:12

a picture of the avatar of my own podcast, as

49:15

if I've never seen it before, and then you

49:17

can google my

49:20

name is spelt so fucking weird that

49:22

if you just go Christina Comedia, New York City,

49:24

that they find with the spelling of my name right

49:27

um, and then they'll just they'll have that emoji

49:29

with like the like that kind of emoji.

49:32

I don't really know what that one means, but it's someone with like the like

49:36

I'm slightly uncomfortable that

49:38

sound that you just made like you

49:41

got a lot of that. And then somebody messaged

49:43

me yesterday and goes, do you think you're too pretty

49:45

to be funny? And I'm like, don't nag me,

49:48

motherfucker? What ugly?

49:50

Like like doesn't work?

49:52

It's we that's

49:54

a really weird. It's a compliment.

49:57

But well, that's what nagging

49:59

is. It's like you're trying to reel in but you're

50:01

not. You don't usually use a compliment at all, that's true.

50:04

It's usually like it's like you're

50:06

trying to hit on me. You would go, oh my, like,

50:08

wow, am I you really dressed up, Karin? What's

50:10

your problem? That's how you nag. He

50:13

did like a backwards compliment to you. So

50:15

it's like he demeaned your skill

50:17

set and then made you like you

50:20

are just your face. That's right, right

50:22

at least? Yeah, But then I looked at his profile like

50:24

you are nothing to write home about, sir. I

50:27

mean the confidence of the men on these dating

50:29

apps, it's crazy, Like

50:32

I wish I could channel that. Um.

50:35

I mean yeah, when when you're dating

50:37

and you're someone who people can google and they're like, em

50:39

a huff post, Like I'll come up and

50:42

it's like, oh, she writes about feminism

50:44

and like meat she's a witch. Yeah, she's

50:46

a witch. She has a podcast about

50:49

the Bachelor, like who is this bitch um?

50:52

And and the worst part is

50:54

that sometimes they will then like communicate

50:57

to me what they have found, and I'm

50:59

like, what, like just just forgot,

51:03

Oh I'm gonna one time. I

51:05

forget which dating app this was on, but it was a couple

51:07

of years ago, and this guy

51:10

opened with, uh,

51:13

your journalist, I'm going to Google you right

51:15

now and read your last

51:17

piece. So he immediately does that, and

51:19

then I don't know, I'm like,

51:21

you can google. I am fine with people

51:23

google self select out if you

51:25

can't get on board with the fact that I write about feminism

51:27

like a real favor to me. Also,

51:30

that's fine. I'm glad that can be a you

51:32

know, very useful tool. But I

51:34

don't want to I don't really care what you think about my

51:36

work. We never met, and probably

51:39

maybe I don't ever care what you think of my work, but

51:41

certainly not you know, if we've met. And this

51:43

guy proceeded to write like a

51:46

three paragraph critique of

51:48

my latest piece, in which he man

51:51

splained the mail gaze to me and

51:55

and docked me points for

51:57

using words he did not understand. What

52:00

Yeah,

52:03

yeah right, I was like it was

52:05

again it was the weirdest neg Yeah,

52:08

like you are going to weigh

52:10

in as a man on my you

52:13

know, feminist writing first and foremost

52:16

four women. You're going to insult

52:18

it, and then you're going to admit that you don't understand

52:20

like basic vocabulary words. I

52:22

just want to know where men,

52:25

certain men get that fucking confidence,

52:28

right, That's what I want. I want that confidence.

52:31

I don't want that. I mean, I don't want that level.

52:33

I don't want to be a dick. But I mean I I like,

52:36

really wonder what it feels like to

52:38

be like this, you know what, I'm

52:41

going to weigh in her expertise,

52:44

this will be it Like there's no curiosity

52:47

on on that that kind of person's part.

52:49

They're they're not like, oh wow, what do you do? Oh I want to

52:51

read you know You're They're they're just like, well,

52:53

here's what I can have say to improve exactly.

52:56

It wasn't even like, oh, we should go out for

52:58

a coffee. I'd love to discuss x wizy

53:00

thing with you because I have some some

53:02

thoughts and i'd love to get your take. Like that was fine.

53:05

Do you remember anything that he said that other

53:07

than like the words you used that he didn't understand

53:09

that. That's hilarious that he googled your article,

53:12

but he could google definition. So I think the piece

53:14

he was critiquing was it

53:16

was when do you remember when people

53:18

were mocking those teen girls for like taking

53:21

selfies at a baseball game and it went viral.

53:23

It was a couple of years ago, one of those like small little

53:25

internet things, okay, And so I wrote a piece

53:27

kind of peg to that um

53:30

about the way that we kind

53:32

of demean young women's self expression

53:35

and like the way that specifically

53:37

the disdain for selfie culture

53:39

is so based around disdain for teen girls,

53:42

and that kind of goes hand in hand. Was like, what the way people try

53:44

to make girls seem stupid by pointing out vocal

53:47

fry exactly, things like that exactly

53:49

that that exact kind of thing. So it's just sort of like

53:51

a meditation on that. And he

53:54

he also critiqued me. He was like, oh, you wrote

53:56

about selfies and yet I don't see a

53:58

lot of selfies like on your so shial media,

54:01

so minus one. Like I

54:04

wish I remembered the word that

54:06

he critinued, but it was something that was like, buddy,

54:09

you should know what. Yeah,

54:11

if you don't like you should almost be a little bit embarrassing

54:13

Google and then you learn a new word, don't. Don't.

54:15

He is even cocky about his faults.

54:18

Yeah, that's that's the odd thing about

54:20

about that kind of guy. Oh and

54:22

he also said that selfies were contributing

54:25

to like the downfall of civilization and culture.

54:27

That's such a hack thing. It was like the worst

54:29

take. I was like, people, if that's what everyone's

54:31

uncle says Christmas? Actually, well

54:33

yeah, but people like people are like people.

54:36

That's why we have mirrors, Like why the funk

54:38

you think you give someone a camera with a with a front

54:40

facing camera onto it, Like they're

54:42

not going to not take photos of themselves all the time. People

54:44

are just fascinated with what they look like

54:47

and how they come off to the world. And additionally, we

54:49

live in a culture where it is so it

54:51

is reinforced time and time again how important

54:53

it is for women to be attractive, and

54:55

where that's where our value comes from. But then when we

54:58

try to enjoy what

55:00

we've been pushed to do by society

55:02

ourselves for men were then we're called

55:04

Yeah, then we're called vein right in

55:07

your vein and vapid. But also you

55:09

should appear in a way that is as pleasing

55:11

to these men who are judging you for the selfies

55:13

as possible. Uh. And it's just

55:16

yeah, I think you know, as women like our bodies,

55:18

our looks are always kind of you know, there's

55:20

always the opportunity to kind of weaponize them against

55:22

us. And I think the biggest,

55:25

the biggest defense that we that women, a

55:27

woman could ever have against that is

55:29

to not give a shit, right, would

55:31

you agree? I don't know, what do you think? Yeah? I mean,

55:33

I think if you can, I would love to be a

55:35

person who has the ability to not give a ship.

55:37

But you know, I think I think just talking

55:40

about it is the most important thing, because we're going to have

55:42

those instincts, like I'm sure

55:44

all of us, like I feel like I've come to a place

55:46

where I feel, you know, much

55:48

better and much more capable of like loving my body

55:50

than I did, say a decade ago, But

55:52

it doesn't mean that I still don't have the instincts

55:55

to be like, well, my self worth is wrapped

55:57

up in thinness and in you

56:00

know, meeting certain beauty standards and

56:02

like those things are just like I'm a human

56:04

woman in the fucking world. So that

56:07

exists. But at least I've gotten better at

56:09

coping with it and being honest about it.

56:11

Yeah, And it's and it's just like with the additions

56:14

of any kind of internet platform

56:16

or social media, like it's just one

56:18

other way for people to kind of

56:20

get at you, to comment on you. So

56:22

often it is like it's

56:25

it's and even women do it to each other too, Like

56:27

I I'll post, you know, a

56:29

picture of me putting cans

56:32

in a box for homeless kids. That's a picture, doesn't

56:34

exist, but it's a it's a hypothetical, and then

56:36

people will be like, I love your jeans, what

56:38

lipstick are you wearing? And it's just like, guys, come

56:40

on, I just I always think this is

56:42

why Hillary didn't win the election. That's I

56:44

just, that's just why. That's why I just said, well,

56:47

that's it. That makes me mad.

56:49

That's an example though, of and I feel

56:51

like I was introduced to this concept when we interviewed.

56:54

OK, I forget who, maybe it was Marchabelski

56:56

a couple of years ago, but internalizing

56:58

the mail gaze, Yeah that I never really

57:00

kind of heard that concept until we talked about

57:02

it during that interview, and I'm like, oh, funk, that's what

57:04

I've been doing. And it's really tough to unwrap

57:07

yourself from that. And I think we need to also

57:09

be be kind to ourselves and not expect

57:12

that like, well, now I've recognized

57:14

it, so I'm free from it, because that will

57:16

just lead to like a shame spiral

57:18

when you when you're still having those feelings.

57:21

Yeah, that's merely step one exactly recognizing

57:23

it. And we've also seen I think men use

57:26

it so successfully as a weapon for so long

57:28

that you can go, oh, well that I can use

57:30

this weapon too. This is a weapon that I can then add

57:33

to my arsenal against other women. Yeah.

57:35

Yeah, And society has done it, and

57:37

and advertising and fucking media,

57:39

all of it has done it. Yeah, it's something. It's so

57:42

interesting, like I noticed it when I mean, I'm

57:44

sure you guys get a lot of like trolls

57:46

or whatever, like shitty internet comments, and I think

57:48

when when you've been a

57:51

public figure is the wrong word, but like someone who's in

57:53

in the public space at all.

57:56

Um, you get used to like

57:58

letting a lot of those things just roll off your back.

58:01

And I've noticed that. Um,

58:04

the comments that are the hardest

58:06

for me to really let go are

58:08

the ones the most basic troll

58:10

men are like you're fat, you're ugly,

58:12

like you you know, things

58:14

that are like attack my looks

58:17

or things that maybe at one point I would have believed

58:19

about myself versus like that

58:22

that sad piece of ship is trying to weaponize.

58:25

But it's like, if someone calls me like a feminazzi con,

58:27

I'm like, that's funny, that's funny, Like you

58:30

like, I know, you're like an asshole, and I

58:32

yeah, like that's not right, right right, going

58:34

to hurt me because that doesn't feel like it's based in any

58:37

truth that I've internalized. And so I just

58:39

like noticed that, And I think, I

58:42

don't know, do you read are comments

58:44

on your social media or on your own because

58:46

I imagine I don't read the comments on

58:49

feminism in any form that you're going to get

58:52

you're going to get it in terms of the comments.

58:54

Oh yeah, I don't really read comments on pieces

58:56

because it's just a cess pool. But it's more

58:59

like, you know, will contact me. It's

59:01

a lot in in Twitter mentions.

59:03

But then also people will go as far to like dm

59:05

me on Instagram, dm me on Facebook,

59:08

Um, you LinkedIn? Yeah,

59:11

why do publications and

59:13

this I realized this might be a dumb question, but

59:16

why do you even fucking have a comment section

59:18

on your articles? We don't need to hear from you.

59:20

We want to hear from the journalists that wrote the fucking piece.

59:22

I don't want to hear what Larry from Idaho has to fucking

59:24

say about it, you know. I think it's like something

59:26

that's been a big conversation

59:29

within media companies. Yeah, for

59:31

years, it's like what what purpose did these

59:33

communities serve? I mean, in the

59:36

best case scenario, you know, you're providing

59:38

a platform within your publication

59:40

for people to connect and to make ideas,

59:43

and like, if it was used in the right way,

59:46

you know, and I think on sites that have smaller

59:48

communities, that is possible and it could

59:50

become really really vibrant, like right,

59:54

yeah, yeah, I mean everyone has has

59:56

some sort of um like yeah,

59:58

yeah, admins, but on

1:00:01

at this point, I think our our comments are linked

1:00:04

up with Facebook, so which I think a lot of

1:00:06

because I know that the media wants

1:00:08

to encourage those conversations so they get more clicks

1:00:10

and more ads. And another thing too with with journalist

1:00:13

just the way that the fast pace

1:00:15

of the news circuits. Now it's like,

1:00:17

are you guys, uh for are

1:00:19

you guys ever pressured as a writer to like come

1:00:21

up with a piece out of nowhere

1:00:24

because some of the ship I'm like, this is just for

1:00:26

clicks. This is so obvious. It's insulting to my intelligence.

1:00:28

That makes me hate the website makes me hate. But you can't

1:00:30

you get that everywhere. There's no publication that doesn't

1:00:33

have that. Yeah, I think it's sort of just built

1:00:35

in, Like no one is sitting there, you know, with

1:00:37

a hammer saying like publishing

1:00:39

this dumb piece, and the journalists like, no, please,

1:00:42

you know it's but I do think there's just

1:00:44

something about being in this twenty for our news

1:00:47

cycle. There is such a demand for

1:00:49

information, and also you're you're dealing

1:00:51

with like looking at raw numbers and looking what people

1:00:53

actually are reading, So there there

1:00:55

might actually be a demand for some of the

1:00:57

things that you might consider sort of stupid

1:01:00

um and I

1:01:02

think it's just again. One of the struggles of being

1:01:04

a digital publisher is like you you

1:01:06

have to show results,

1:01:08

you have to show your you know, corporate

1:01:10

overlords that

1:01:12

people people are reading,

1:01:14

and so it's

1:01:16

a it's a tough ecosystem because

1:01:18

I was like, I know, like I like something. I was like, what, it's a dumb

1:01:21

article that I can think of that I've like, you

1:01:23

know, it would be a shame to read, like, you know, comparing

1:01:25

we could we compared the five

1:01:27

most popular waste trainers on the market. You

1:01:30

know, it's like, I'm sure those are getting a ton of clicks.

1:01:32

But then you see it and you go up. But it's like have I

1:01:34

clicked on an article like that before? Yeah? Absolutely,

1:01:37

And then you know two paragraphs and I go, are you out

1:01:39

of your goddamn mine? You know. But sometimes

1:01:41

you're just like, well, maybe it does work. You

1:01:43

know, You're

1:01:46

like, man, this is great. Yeah, those

1:01:48

those freaked me out. I'm like, I don't think you're I don't

1:01:50

want my organs. It's

1:01:54

very bad for you. It sounds painful, like I do want

1:01:56

to look great. But then I'm like, well for who, Christina,

1:01:59

No, you're you're you're destroying your insights.

1:02:01

Yeah, not trying to like squish all of

1:02:03

my internal organs. Not

1:02:05

for you. That's where I draw the line. I don't know his personal preference.

1:02:08

Yeah. Um,

1:02:10

I want to talk about the me too movement.

1:02:13

Yeah, um, I feel like it's

1:02:15

something that Crann and I

1:02:17

we kind of started to notice it bubbling

1:02:20

up. This is because

1:02:22

this thing has been happening for all time and now it's

1:02:24

like the re Emergency part two. Yeah,

1:02:26

exactly. And um, you know, when Karn and

1:02:28

I started getting all these emails from people who were raped or melessed

1:02:30

as children, I'm like, Okay, this is

1:02:32

insane. And then I remember we did

1:02:35

we did a piece for the New York Times where we did a video

1:02:37

for the New York Times, and then the next

1:02:39

day they came out with the Louis. The Louis thing that

1:02:42

was our pace was kind

1:02:44

of a comedian female comedians commenting

1:02:46

on the rape joke. Um. But uh

1:02:49

and then Harvey Weinstein obviously was

1:02:51

that article was that was kind

1:02:53

of really what really

1:02:56

is like? Yeah,

1:02:59

because I feel like of everybody else permission and be like,

1:03:01

oh my god, this fuck up thing is happening here.

1:03:03

Too in my workplace, where in my family, or in my school

1:03:05

or am I wherever. The funk and Harvey was such an interest,

1:03:07

an easy person to start with because because

1:03:10

no question, Yeah, because no ambiguity

1:03:13

there. Yeah, he's he's mean looking, he's a

1:03:15

white strike guy. And additionally, there's

1:03:17

nothing like it's not we're not it's not like an

1:03:19

R. Kelly where we're connecting to a specific

1:03:21

song that he's saying. Like he is a producer

1:03:24

behind all these walls. So it's like we don't have to now just

1:03:26

not watch any movies by the Weinstein Company

1:03:28

because they're like so many other people involved, you can kind

1:03:30

of just get rid of him. It was like a very

1:03:32

easy start to it. Yeah, he's

1:03:34

not a beloved public and the scale

1:03:37

was so and there

1:03:39

were so many famous, beautiful

1:03:41

white women putting their names attached

1:03:43

to it. I think it's sort of lined

1:03:45

up in this way that everyone could kind of agree

1:03:47

like, yes, this is monstrous behavior,

1:03:50

this is bad, he's not, this is not yea,

1:03:54

all these things they know all the right.

1:03:56

It's it's really complicated. And and then

1:03:58

I think we saw as more

1:04:00

and more and more stories just and there's endless

1:04:03

stories there's endless stories and so

1:04:05

many you know they are getting told

1:04:07

but don't get published for various reasons.

1:04:10

Is there an underline? Do you ever see? Um?

1:04:12

Do you notice or do you get to see all the stories that

1:04:14

don't get published? Do you hear about

1:04:16

them? I just think like, yeah, like any

1:04:18

journalist who covers this stuff, it

1:04:21

becomes a little bit

1:04:23

of a secret keeper almost because

1:04:26

well, and I mean that in the sense

1:04:28

that you know, someone might come

1:04:30

to you and disclose something and then say, actually,

1:04:32

I'm not prepared to to come

1:04:34

forward. And like the way that the

1:04:36

way that I I operate and the way that most

1:04:38

journalists I know who cover sexual assault operate

1:04:41

is like we want the people,

1:04:43

the survivors, to be in control

1:04:45

of their own story and their own narrative. And so

1:04:48

if at any point during a reporting,

1:04:50

during the reporting process, if someone says to me like

1:04:52

I'm no longer comfortable with this, then we're doing

1:04:55

then we're done there. Um. And

1:04:57

And so you know, if someone comes to me and

1:05:00

says this thing happened, and then they

1:05:03

say, actually, I don't want this to be

1:05:05

in a national publication, which like fair

1:05:08

and I cannot push someone to

1:05:10

to expose themselves in that way get

1:05:13

frustrated. I guess that's probably know

1:05:15

it's like for you have to be guided by

1:05:17

like empathy for that person in their story.

1:05:19

Have you ever questioned whether or not their sudden

1:05:22

change of heart was due to like a threat, because I know wine

1:05:25

speaking of Weinstein, I mean he's threatening people.

1:05:27

He made a hit list of people. Yeah,

1:05:29

I mean that was extreme. Um

1:05:32

no, not in just not me personally,

1:05:35

because a lot of these, a

1:05:37

lot of the stories you hear like this,

1:05:40

the person who you know was the perpetrator

1:05:43

would there would be no reason that they would have any

1:05:45

idea this person was. Speaking a

1:05:47

journalist, you know, it's if it's

1:05:49

someone that you don't have a

1:05:52

current relationship with. And

1:05:55

when you write a piece about somebody who

1:05:57

was sexually assaulted by whether

1:05:59

it be a public thig, you're or not what

1:06:01

kind of you? And I feel

1:06:03

like people don't understand this. You as a journalist

1:06:06

have a responsibility to check

1:06:09

the sources. And it's not of any like I

1:06:11

don't believe you of it to the to the victim

1:06:13

coming forward. You would do that in any k You would

1:06:15

do that any pace. It's just especially delicate

1:06:18

and I always again when someone when

1:06:20

when a source comes to me, I always

1:06:22

make sure to explain, like, this is the process

1:06:25

that you have today, and emphasize

1:06:27

that it's it's yes, it's to protect

1:06:30

our publication and like my

1:06:32

name is going to be on this piece, but also it's to protect

1:06:35

the person who's coming forward, because you don't

1:06:37

want you want that story to be

1:06:40

airtight and you want the powers of

1:06:42

your media company to be behind

1:06:45

like defending that story. Yeah, And I

1:06:47

think the word witch hunt gets thrown out a lot

1:06:49

with the me too movement, and I don't think that anybody

1:06:52

who uses that word quite understands the

1:06:54

amount of research and double checking

1:06:56

and fact checking that goes into a

1:06:58

lot of stories it I

1:07:01

one hundred percent believe

1:07:03

occurred, but for whatever reason, they

1:07:06

do not get published because there

1:07:09

isn't enough there to justify

1:07:12

putting that out into the public. And that's

1:07:15

something that I also struggle with because I think,

1:07:18

I don't know, sometimes it feels like is the bar

1:07:21

too high? Like are we putting such

1:07:23

as you're almost putting the legal person

1:07:25

in it, right, And it's and and it's tough, it's like it's

1:07:28

it's just something that on a it feels

1:07:30

really crappy to say to someone like,

1:07:33

no, I'm not saying you need to be the quote unquote

1:07:35

perfect victim, but I don't. I

1:07:38

don't have these things that like would allow

1:07:41

us to move forward with responsibly publishing

1:07:43

this story. And and I think

1:07:46

that that's it can be a really

1:07:48

it's just a really tough conversation, delicate conversation.

1:07:50

What types of things would you need that you couldn't

1:07:53

get, Like if they mentioned a plate

1:07:55

like proof of employment or do you have any props?

1:07:58

Yeah, yeah, I mean it could be something like proof

1:08:02

of being in ex place when

1:08:04

they said they were, or

1:08:06

or just having told

1:08:08

someone around the

1:08:11

time that it happened about what had

1:08:13

happened, so that you can, you know, say

1:08:15

that you had at least one person who

1:08:17

was, you know, corroborating

1:08:19

it in some capacity. And understandably,

1:08:22

when you're talking about a crime like sexual assault,

1:08:24

there's so much shame attached to it

1:08:27

that a lot of people don't

1:08:29

tell anyone or a lot of people don't

1:08:31

tell people to take

1:08:33

years to tell the full thing. You know, they might

1:08:35

say, oh, this person was creepy

1:08:38

towards me, and that can be a stand

1:08:40

in for something much more serious, but

1:08:42

it makes it harder to then report out that

1:08:44

story, especially you know, when you

1:08:47

which is why I think you see a lot of publications

1:08:49

waiting to publish until they have you

1:08:51

know, three women, eight

1:08:53

women, twelve women accused the same

1:08:56

person. And the

1:08:58

thing that because are letting it

1:09:02

right and and not even just that far, but like what

1:09:04

are we saying, Like, you're not believable

1:09:07

unless this guy assaulted bunch

1:09:09

of other people, and then that's absurd because

1:09:11

affecting one person's life

1:09:13

through sexual harassment or sexual as all, it is unacceptable

1:09:16

and it's an abuse of power. And it doesn't matter

1:09:18

if it happened again and again again or

1:09:20

one time, that's still that behavior is not okay.

1:09:23

Um, And so yeah, I don't know, it's it's

1:09:25

just we're like a think big country. That's kind of how

1:09:27

we handle everything, Like I mean, like think of uh

1:09:30

even with murder, Like it's like, if you murder

1:09:32

one person, you're almost like unless it's and

1:09:34

if it's not a celebrity, you're on like maybe

1:09:36

just like a little police like blodder. But if you if

1:09:39

you murder five people, you're on. You're

1:09:41

on the news. If and if there are five people, and it's

1:09:43

together if you use a bigger gun, like

1:09:45

and everything is like big and if you murder five celebrities,

1:09:48

you'll be remembered forever. Yeah,

1:09:51

they the music die. That wasn't Plaine though. Um.

1:09:53

And then but talking about quota though, I'm

1:09:55

interested in your in your thoughts

1:09:57

on this. So it's like, uh, you know, the

1:09:59

stories a thrown away for whatever reason. But do

1:10:01

you ever feel as a journalist that, uh,

1:10:04

it's hard because like that that like papers

1:10:07

or websites can be almost oversaturated

1:10:10

with stories from the me to move into the point where

1:10:12

then people just shut down to it and

1:10:14

kind of immune start, you know, because like now it's used

1:10:17

kind of like the way you would use like google it, Oh you know, me

1:10:19

to me, me and I there.

1:10:22

I definitely am concerned that,

1:10:24

Uh, we were taking it very seriously

1:10:26

for a couple of months, and just

1:10:29

like everything in this country, then we kind of forget

1:10:31

about it. Yeah, And I don't know, I

1:10:34

wouldn't say like the answer to that,

1:10:36

which is a real feeling, like I

1:10:39

I feel that that is a thing that's happened,

1:10:41

you know, we were so horrified, and then I think

1:10:43

there's a certain point where like

1:10:45

you can't sustain that level of

1:10:47

of almost trauma and anxiety and depression,

1:10:50

and you just sort of get like inured to it.

1:10:53

Um And but I'm not sure

1:10:55

that the answer is like, well we I guess

1:10:57

we just then shouldn't publish these stories

1:10:59

or we shouldn't be trying to explain

1:11:02

that this happens in in all of these industries

1:11:05

and we shouldn't be pushing to you

1:11:07

know, still have that because also, um

1:11:10

you know, you've to remember that if there's a story about

1:11:12

a single company, even if even

1:11:15

if it maybe doesn't make a massive splash

1:11:18

and isn't like on the nightly news, it

1:11:20

could still affect policy at that one

1:11:23

company or or for that one

1:11:25

person. Um So I

1:11:27

do. I do think these stories still have impact,

1:11:30

but I think that the way that they're landing doesn't

1:11:33

feel as impactful anymore because

1:11:35

we are sort of getting used

1:11:38

to it, like oh, this is just and

1:11:41

and look, the reality is that like this stuff

1:11:44

was normalized in our culture, like this

1:11:47

this is a thing. As you said, it's been going on forever.

1:11:49

Most women have experienced something on the

1:11:51

continuum of sexual harassment

1:11:53

or as solid I mean, I ventured to say

1:11:56

all all women something

1:11:58

on that continuum. And

1:12:00

and so I don't,

1:12:02

I don't, I don't know. I think we're sort of still struggling,

1:12:04

struggling with like what comes next,

1:12:07

What does restorative justice look like, what does

1:12:09

real cultural change look like?

1:12:11

And what does it require? Because sometimes oftentimes

1:12:13

a journalist publishing his stories the only justice

1:12:16

you're ever going to write because of the way our court system

1:12:18

is made, and the burden of proof for sexual assault

1:12:20

is so high and for rape is so high,

1:12:23

and there's just there's just so many things with the rape

1:12:25

testing and all that ship. But like,

1:12:27

I'm curious what your thoughts are. You said you were

1:12:29

written about his zas and sorry and and

1:12:32

and one of the things that I think is great

1:12:34

about the Me Too movement is that we can talk about

1:12:36

all varying levels of

1:12:38

of somebody who crossed the line, whether

1:12:40

it's they abuse their power because they are

1:12:42

in charge of us getting a job, rape,

1:12:46

uh, like all kinds of like from

1:12:48

rape to to sexual harassment

1:12:50

that is that is considered not as

1:12:53

bad. But I think it's so important to talk about

1:12:55

all those levels and and to treat it for what they

1:12:57

are. And I feel like the

1:12:59

disease am sorry story that. When that article

1:13:01

came out, I was like, oh, this

1:13:04

this guy is not a fuck. He doesn't

1:13:06

know how to fuck, Okay, And then

1:13:08

so we can like there's but it's

1:13:10

still like an annoying and

1:13:13

maybe annoying is not the right worker, but it's it

1:13:15

could Uh. I read that story,

1:13:17

I'm like, I've been there. I've totally been there,

1:13:19

and I think it's important to share that. But I also

1:13:21

think and now, no one was boycotting disease,

1:13:24

so I guess I think he's

1:13:26

fine. He's fine, but I think he should

1:13:28

be fine, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think he should have a

1:13:30

show taken away from Netflix. And it's interesting

1:13:32

with the Louis stuff because CRN and I've known about that

1:13:34

for a while, and is HBO Specials

1:13:37

got taken down? And I know that he was abusing

1:13:39

his power for women to work for him, and that's

1:13:41

fucked up. But at what point do you

1:13:43

go, like, it's almost like the public's

1:13:46

waiting for him to suffer the amount that

1:13:48

we think he should suffer and then we

1:13:50

can welcome you back or something, because there's no judge

1:13:52

and it's very chaotic, and I'm like I don't think Louis

1:13:54

c k special should be taken down from HBO. I

1:13:56

fucking learned some of my favorite comedy specials. I also

1:13:58

think he's a piece of ship for doing what he did. He's

1:14:00

also continually and he's he's not

1:14:02

handled it up well. I think he's agree

1:14:08

and he's ante like a baby everything set of the way.

1:14:10

I mean, like I just read an article the other day, so it's like so

1:14:12

it's like, I mean, he's trying to have people

1:14:14

sign legal releases now that

1:14:16

they won't even like quote any jokes

1:14:19

of his on Twitter if they seen him. And

1:14:21

I think it's gonna relax comedian. Comedian

1:14:23

will force a woman to stay in or O tell room and jerk

1:14:25

off in front of it. That's all you have to do. Don't

1:14:28

do that. And also you know to to give

1:14:30

some statement being like I'm going to step back

1:14:32

and listen and then come back and pull the ship

1:14:34

he's pulling. I mean I just have Oh he said he was

1:14:36

going to listen. It was very

1:14:39

like. First of all, he I know for

1:14:41

a time he doesn't he doesn't

1:14:43

read anything that's written about him, like

1:14:45

he doesn't. He doesn't, so he doesn't know what people are saying,

1:14:47

right, so you're not listening. Okay, you DeCamp to

1:14:49

your mansion for like two

1:14:52

months, and then you're like, well, where's my prize?

1:14:54

Like, I I don't know, I don't. I don't think

1:14:57

that anyone, Um there's

1:14:59

like a clear like this is what you deserve when this happens.

1:15:01

But I also don't think anyone has like the

1:15:03

right to be famous and beloved

1:15:06

and celebrated. And none of these men's careers

1:15:08

have completely died really, you

1:15:11

know, like a Louis like a Zizon, Sorry they're

1:15:13

selling. Even

1:15:15

Bill Cosby's career is still

1:15:18

like I mean like he was but

1:15:21

before that, I mean like there was a long time

1:15:23

between when he was in prison and when he was not in prison,

1:15:25

when he was and people were

1:15:29

and so I think that there's a lot of handwringing

1:15:31

around like have we punished people too much?

1:15:33

But the reality is very

1:15:36

few of these people have faced any legal consequences

1:15:39

for what. You know, what

1:15:42

Louis c K did that is criminal and

1:15:44

he admitted to it. So it's

1:15:46

like to me, I'm like, I know, how much empathy should

1:15:48

I have for you? Of course, I mean I have I

1:15:51

have sympathy for men large

1:15:54

because I think we live in a culture that is really

1:15:56

bad for people of all gender

1:15:59

identities. Um And

1:16:01

and that's sort of what I wrote about with easys

1:16:03

on Sorry thing. And while I

1:16:05

didn't love I thought that piece really

1:16:08

needed a better editor and probably a better

1:16:10

home. Like I don't know that the message

1:16:12

of that piece was necessary delivered,

1:16:15

necessarily delivered in the best way, but

1:16:17

I actually think it started one of the most important

1:16:20

conversations we've had in the last two years, because,

1:16:23

like we were talking about before with Harvey Weinstein,

1:16:25

it's very easy to be like that man is a monster,

1:16:28

you know, um And and for

1:16:30

a lot of men to see and say like that

1:16:33

man is a monster and that man is nothing like me.

1:16:35

I would never do that. Uh,

1:16:38

but you see a story because he's on sorry, and you have

1:16:40

a lot of men and women being like, oh, yeah, that that happened

1:16:42

to me or I might have been that person. And I think that

1:16:45

um created like a defensive

1:16:48

reaction, which is perhaps

1:16:50

human, but like those gray areas

1:16:53

of where the culture change occurs. Oh

1:16:55

the nuance man and it's so

1:16:57

important to talk about it, and people didn't

1:16:59

be we used to write us say they got upset that we even

1:17:01

said the word gray area. Oh yeah,

1:17:04

people get upset, get get up upset

1:17:06

about that all the time. And I'm like, no, that's the most

1:17:08

important part as saying, like the

1:17:10

areas that no one talks about enough, and I

1:17:13

feel like if we talked about them more, they wouldn't be gray.

1:17:15

And I also think that behavior can be

1:17:17

really bad without being criminal,

1:17:20

Like I I um from

1:17:22

my reading of that piece, I was like, this doesn't sound

1:17:24

criminal, but this sounds like really violating

1:17:27

behavior, sexual behavior on his part. And

1:17:30

I was really struck in that story with

1:17:33

all of the kind of non verbal and

1:17:35

and indirectly verbal cues that this

1:17:37

that this woman was giving him that she

1:17:40

was not enjoying what was going on, and

1:17:42

he blew past every single one

1:17:44

of them and seemed perhaps genuinely

1:17:47

shocked that she didn't feel like fucking

1:17:50

awesome about their sexual encounter. And

1:17:53

my feeling reading that is like, A,

1:17:56

I feel very bad for her, and that is a shitty

1:17:58

situation to be in, but also what

1:18:01

a scary situation to

1:18:03

be in if you are a man and you

1:18:05

genuinely feel that you don't have the

1:18:07

ability to read someone else or

1:18:09

you haven't been taught how to do

1:18:11

that. And that's not excusing any responsibility,

1:18:14

but like we have that's really

1:18:17

bad sexual scripts that are very

1:18:19

gender that are built into our culture, and

1:18:22

you sort of we sort of encourage

1:18:24

women to be a little bit

1:18:27

passive. We women know

1:18:29

that they could that they don't know, you

1:18:31

know, what reaction a man is going to have if

1:18:33

they try to push back or use

1:18:35

a forceful know, and so we're sort

1:18:37

of taught to to take the path of less

1:18:40

resistance, and men are taught that,

1:18:42

you know, being a sexy, powerful

1:18:44

man is to like, you know, kind

1:18:47

of barrel past and be and lead

1:18:49

the way and and be sexually

1:18:51

aggressive. Yeah, And I think the common denominator

1:18:54

between the male experience and the female experience is,

1:18:56

uh, those particular

1:18:58

kinds is that you're not present, right,

1:19:01

You're you're wrapped up in something, whether it's

1:19:03

I want to I want to funk or just like you're

1:19:05

just horny and you just want to fucking you You're not

1:19:07

present, You're not in tune to the other person, what they're with,

1:19:10

the signs that they're giving you. And then if the woman,

1:19:12

if something starts to be weird, I felt it so many

1:19:14

times with men where and this isn't

1:19:16

sexual harassment, but like I want to say

1:19:18

something because like I'm not getting pleasure at all,

1:19:20

and then I just want to say something and I just nothing

1:19:23

comes out. No exactly, I get too wrapped up

1:19:25

in that that I can't even enjoy, Like I can't be friends.

1:19:27

And I wrote about that in my my piece. I

1:19:29

opened the piece that I wrote about is zis on sorry

1:19:31

with like two experiences that I had a

1:19:33

couple of years ago, Um that

1:19:36

I don't qualify as sexual assault,

1:19:38

but I do qualify as violating

1:19:40

experiences. And I talked about like

1:19:42

how confused they

1:19:45

made me feel, and that can you talk about one of

1:19:47

them? So one of them, Um, you know,

1:19:49

I was on a second date

1:19:51

with like a slightly older book editor and

1:19:55

he had planned this state like where he

1:19:57

knew it was nearby my apartment. And

1:20:00

after we had, you know, dinner, he

1:20:02

was like, oh, let's just go up to your He kind

1:20:04

of invited himself over and I was like, just to be clear,

1:20:06

I don't want to have I don't want to have sex. Did

1:20:09

he know how did you know where you lived? We

1:20:11

had I can't remember. This

1:20:13

was a few years I was. I can't remember. We had talked

1:20:16

about it in some way he knew and then maybe

1:20:18

during dinner he had been like, where is your part? Like,

1:20:21

and you had noticed that the date was set up obviously

1:20:25

there Yeah, I was like two blocks away

1:20:27

from um and

1:20:29

and I was like, yeah, sure you can come up, but like just to be

1:20:31

clear, like I don't want to sleep with you

1:20:34

um and he was like yeah, yeah, of course, of course. But

1:20:36

then right when we got up to my

1:20:38

apartment sort of like initiated

1:20:40

a pretty aggressive um

1:20:44

yeah yeah hook up, and

1:20:46

and it got to a point where I was like this is fine, and but

1:20:48

I didn't I didn't love it. So at a certain point I

1:20:50

was like, you know, I'm really tired, Like I

1:20:52

think I'm ready to go to bed, which is a

1:20:56

clear verbal que that you're done. Like I think

1:20:58

everyone can understand that. And there's actually

1:21:00

paying research that both men and women are

1:21:02

equally good at picking up uh

1:21:05

knows that do not involve the word no, which

1:21:07

I also included in in my piece.

1:21:10

Yeah, there's been actual research. Question does that research

1:21:12

and include on the spectrum?

1:21:14

And I mean and I see that like as a I don't

1:21:17

know because I'm like not fully not like full

1:21:20

like autistic, but I mean, I think there are so many people who

1:21:22

have like undiagnosed as Burgers especially

1:21:24

made me think about it with his zz. I'm sorry just knowing

1:21:26

so many comedians, like so many comedians

1:21:29

truly cannot read social cues,

1:21:31

and I and I just I'm just kind of like, I

1:21:33

think there are certainly are people who can't read social

1:21:35

cues, but I also think that there

1:21:38

are also yeah, exactly

1:21:40

are a little more likely to willfully

1:21:43

kind of ignore those or not not have the instinct

1:21:46

to check in. I've

1:21:48

ignored social cues because I don't want

1:21:50

to, not not for in sexual

1:21:53

situations, but like in other ones where I'm like, yeah, I don't

1:21:55

deal with embarrassment or exactly, so

1:21:57

so he I he seemed to understand

1:21:59

that was okay, I'm gonna go to the bathroom. Um,

1:22:02

and and I was like, okay, we're

1:22:04

done here. I was like, you know, half clothed in

1:22:06

my bed. He comes back in and

1:22:09

stands over me and begins jerking

1:22:12

off and asks,

1:22:15

ten seconds in is this okay?

1:22:18

And I and then I was in

1:22:20

such a state of shock that I

1:22:22

was just like yes, And I think

1:22:24

like yeah, Like I think in that moment, I was like, well,

1:22:27

maybe he'll just be this will just end

1:22:29

it, he'll be done. And then but I didn't

1:22:31

say like, no, that's not okay, what are you doing?

1:22:34

And and so after that it's

1:22:36

sort of made me feel like, did

1:22:38

he realize that that was kind of sucked up?

1:22:40

If not, why not? Also why

1:22:42

did why did I say it was okay when

1:22:45

like clearly I was getting nothing out of this

1:22:47

and had said that I was tired and wanted to be done.

1:22:50

Um. And and I think again,

1:22:52

like almost every woman that I've spoken

1:22:54

to has some version of

1:22:56

the ass on sorry story, like

1:22:59

maybe less intense, but some

1:23:02

version of sort of just

1:23:04

acquiescing to something because

1:23:06

it feels safer

1:23:08

to just because it'll it'll make this everything

1:23:11

and faster, there's less complications

1:23:13

to the guys after they come are different

1:23:15

human beings. Uh, And

1:23:18

there's all there's a million reasons you can

1:23:20

tell yourself to just like get it over with.

1:23:22

I think we've also been fed through certainly

1:23:25

pornography even just like regular

1:23:27

films kind of that this like it's

1:23:29

sexy or kinky or a little

1:23:31

like naughty and taboo. Uh,

1:23:34

to like to elicit

1:23:37

like fear in women, or like

1:23:39

a discomfort like like oh I'm going to do

1:23:41

this, or like a little demeaning,

1:23:44

demeaning thing where the

1:23:46

damsel in distress. Like there's so many kind of different

1:23:48

things that things that are done. I

1:23:51

mean that I certainly see in pornography. Some of them

1:23:53

I find arousing, some I do not. And

1:23:55

that's the thing is like if you trust

1:23:57

someone and you're having a conversation, then like

1:24:00

me, like I

1:24:02

like I am, you know, not someone who's like

1:24:04

opposed to like

1:24:07

those things necessarily. But if it's someone I

1:24:09

don't know and something I didn't ask for and something

1:24:12

I don't know is coming, then like yeah, then

1:24:14

there's no yeah. There. I was. I

1:24:16

was sending this this guy was sext him with the other day.

1:24:18

I was sending him links to porn I watched and

1:24:20

he was like, oh I like these videos. He's like the second one

1:24:22

that was a little too violent for me. I don't know, like I don't

1:24:24

want to treat a woman like that. And I was like, actually, uh

1:24:28

in, I mean, who knows. I wasn't on set

1:24:30

for this porn, but I know the times

1:24:32

I've taken like classes on kink that we wrote about

1:24:34

in the book. I I remember like having

1:24:37

Tristan Terremino said this over and over again in a couple

1:24:39

of classes I went to of hers, where like,

1:24:41

that kind of kink, the sub is the one

1:24:43

in control. So if it's the woman that's getting

1:24:45

slapped in the fucking face, the guys spitting

1:24:47

on or whatever, she's the one who says she

1:24:49

wants that before the cameras roll, and she's the one that's

1:24:51

in charge of this whole thing. And then she

1:24:54

obviously gets to a place where she could trust that person,

1:24:56

and then she could let go and just do whatever

1:24:58

she wants. And it's like that's actually is such a controlling,

1:25:02

uh situation, even though that's the

1:25:04

opposite of what you see. So it's just so confusing

1:25:06

to people. Yeah, there's a good show on Netflix. Actually

1:25:08

they did just debut called Bonding. It

1:25:12

feels I only watched like one or two

1:25:14

episodes so far, but they already started

1:25:16

dealing with exactly that, uh

1:25:19

and kind of you know, things that

1:25:21

make the people who are a little bit or

1:25:23

this one guy who's a little bit new to working as

1:25:25

a dominant is a male dominating

1:25:28

is it's still a dominatrix. What is a male I don't

1:25:30

know, so, yeah, a dominic

1:25:34

So I don't know what you would say, but yeah,

1:25:36

so uh so the male dominatrix,

1:25:39

it just feels feminine. Uh

1:25:41

and he's and he's kind of just like, oh, I don't this doesn't

1:25:43

feel right. And then the female

1:25:45

dominatrix, who's been in the business a lot longer, is

1:25:47

kind of like, no, this is what it's like. You're

1:25:50

you're disrespecting them by not pissing

1:25:52

on this guy kind of thing, right. Spoiler

1:25:56

If I ask guys like I've

1:25:58

asked a guy before, like I like, you know, after

1:26:00

I've had sex with them a couple of times, and I'm like, I think I could like this

1:26:03

with you, like oh like lightly hit me. And if

1:26:05

whenever guy's like I can't do that to a woman.

1:26:07

No, no, no, no, this is not like it's actually

1:26:10

me in control of this. So it's not you being like

1:26:12

a wife beater. But it's

1:26:14

about the power dynamic, not necessarily

1:26:16

about the specific act, because

1:26:19

the same act can be hot

1:26:21

in one situation and completely violating

1:26:23

in another. Yeah, and I feel like, yeah, the

1:26:25

conversations sations I've had with men around

1:26:28

that, like there's the big confusion on some

1:26:30

of the guys that I talked to his part, they're just like I just don't

1:26:32

get it too, and be like, my dudes, you know what the

1:26:34

key is, have a conversation, yeah,

1:26:37

exactly, just like talk about

1:26:40

the answer to almost everything.

1:26:42

Yeah, because the yeah, the flip side, it almost feels like

1:26:44

when if you like say, or if you have a conversation

1:26:46

about like wanting to be hit or something, and

1:26:48

then some person still says like, well, I don't think

1:26:50

that's like kind of like I don't think that's good for

1:26:52

you. That's almost that's just a

1:26:55

shitty as being when you don't want to be

1:26:57

because you're saying, oh, I still don't know

1:27:00

and I cannot speak for how I want

1:27:02

my body to be treated and what feels good to me and

1:27:04

what feels right to me. So it's it's

1:27:06

very complicated everyone. Sexuality is complicated

1:27:09

thought

1:27:13

t shirts Uh. I

1:27:15

also wanted to talk a little bit about h

1:27:18

your piece called She's Not the One. Kind

1:27:20

of going into another election, we see a

1:27:23

lot of women running for president,

1:27:25

and we're gonna have to go through all this bullshit again

1:27:27

because as soon as women start running, we start

1:27:29

picking them apart, and it's very interesting.

1:27:32

Um, it's gonna be a long year.

1:27:34

And yeah, yeah, I just I

1:27:36

and I already see it happening again and it's

1:27:39

and I mean, I truly just I don't under

1:27:41

we're a country that really doesn't learn

1:27:43

from its mistakes or from history,

1:27:46

or we don't like to study history and

1:27:48

well short term memories. It's

1:27:51

like, what even it is barely legal

1:27:53

here, guys, like, how are we how how

1:27:55

do we not have memories of of this?

1:27:57

Yeah? So I didn't know, like what what your thoughts were going in

1:28:00

to this or as a journalist talking

1:28:02

about women running. Yeah, I mean, on

1:28:04

the one hand, it's incredibly exciting.

1:28:07

And I spent a lot of time and energy covering

1:28:10

the election in twenty sixteen, covering Hillary

1:28:12

specifically, um and those gender

1:28:14

dynamics, and this time,

1:28:16

I mean, there are things we're seeing that feel

1:28:18

similar, but also it is a really

1:28:20

different moment um. You know,

1:28:22

we've seen women specifically

1:28:25

be politically activated in mass

1:28:27

in a way that you know certainly

1:28:29

has not happened in recent history,

1:28:32

um at all, because before that

1:28:34

we weren't even allowed so so but

1:28:38

you know, certainly since the last the second wave of

1:28:40

the women's movement, and this,

1:28:43

you know, it feels like a really exciting intersectional

1:28:47

um moment. And and so

1:28:49

I think that first of all, you have a

1:28:51

difference in the electorate in that sense,

1:28:54

um. And also you don't just have

1:28:57

one woman running, so you it's

1:28:59

it's a lot harder to be like, well,

1:29:01

I'd love to vote for a while, but like

1:29:03

just not just not that one,

1:29:06

because like she's just she's

1:29:08

not the right woman. But I totally would

1:29:10

vote for a woman. Women are great, love

1:29:12

to see one as my president. Uh.

1:29:14

And now we have this beautiful

1:29:17

range of of women running for office

1:29:19

who span you know, identities, who

1:29:22

who span ideological perspectives,

1:29:25

and that means

1:29:27

that we can actually talk about what they're bringing to

1:29:29

the table rather than making it

1:29:31

like, oh, are you gonna vote for the woman

1:29:33

or not? Because you

1:29:35

know, gender plays a role in how you perceive

1:29:37

people and might play a role in your decision to

1:29:39

vote for someone. But it's so so complicated,

1:29:43

um, And I'm I'm hoping that we can have

1:29:46

more nuanced conversations and that we

1:29:48

can avoid some of the stuff we saw with Hillary.

1:29:50

On the other hand, you know, I think it

1:29:53

is it is frustrating

1:29:55

to see just we we

1:29:57

are still in a nation that like real

1:30:01

has a hard time seeing UM

1:30:04

women as uber

1:30:06

powerful like we we see that

1:30:08

like femininity or being

1:30:11

a woman as in as in conflict

1:30:13

with that UM role

1:30:15

almost it's it's so so ingrained,

1:30:18

and you know, it's it's always so interesting

1:30:21

to me that like you wouldn't have I

1:30:24

still don't think you would have a female

1:30:27

Burnie. You know, someone that is so

1:30:30

has been so consistent ideologically, comes

1:30:32

from an activist background, does not have

1:30:34

like a deep deep well

1:30:36

of of UM you know, successful policies,

1:30:39

but like has great, big ideas

1:30:41

and it's been doing the work

1:30:44

for their whole life. But a woman who

1:30:46

who was that kind of activist would not make

1:30:49

it in this moment. I do not think would make

1:30:51

it to this point. Um. You know, in

1:30:53

the same way that like I don't think we

1:30:55

would have a a female

1:30:58

pet Buddha judge. You know, someone who's

1:31:00

just like excited and out there

1:31:02

and it's like I'm going to launch myself from state

1:31:04

politics in you know, into

1:31:07

onto the national stage. Yes, we have

1:31:09

AOC, and there's plenty of people out there who are

1:31:11

like, well if ao c Brand's then

1:31:14

then I'd vote for her. But by the time

1:31:16

AOC has another you know, decade or two

1:31:18

on her and she maybe decides to run for president,

1:31:21

there will be a whole list of things people have on

1:31:23

her to be able to say, well, that

1:31:25

thing is disqualifying. And I

1:31:27

just think that it's

1:31:30

not like, oh, you have to want

1:31:32

to vote for a woman candidate in order

1:31:34

to you know, support women or be a good feminist. That's

1:31:36

that's a silly way to look at it. But the

1:31:39

way that we evaluate uh,

1:31:41

these candidates, gender and race

1:31:44

play really really big roles,

1:31:47

and so it's it's just really hard to kind

1:31:49

of you can't completely separate

1:31:51

that out um. And you know, it's

1:31:53

it's interesting to me. I even see people

1:31:57

um saying things like, oh, yeah, you know,

1:32:00

like Elizabeth Warren, she's such good ideas,

1:32:02

but she just doesn't have like the energy

1:32:04

that like Bernie has. She doesn't have the vision

1:32:08

or you know, she just she's just a

1:32:10

professor. She's an academic. She's too in the

1:32:12

weeds. It's like and

1:32:14

and there, and again this is just these

1:32:17

like a morphous things that to me,

1:32:19

when I hear them, I feel

1:32:21

so gendered and that's not to say

1:32:24

you should be supporting Elizabeth Warren or

1:32:26

you know, or right,

1:32:29

but those aren't like weird. These are things

1:32:31

that are are a morphous that we can't quite

1:32:33

point to, and they're just like a feeling that we

1:32:35

get. And and the truth is that we

1:32:37

still conflate maleness with

1:32:40

power, with energy with vision. Yeah,

1:32:42

which is so interesting because it's like, you know why because she doesn't

1:32:44

yell or like shake her hand when she talks. But

1:32:46

it's like I saw she would be like,

1:32:48

you know, a shrill should be a bit and I was like,

1:32:50

she does have energy because if there's there's the clip

1:32:53

of her running through Penn Station

1:32:55

to catch the train when she thought

1:32:58

this woman and all it's

1:33:00

incredible, and journalist that's

1:33:02

with her in their twenties and they cannot

1:33:05

keep up. This woman Ryan so fair and

1:33:08

then gave an interview right after where she was

1:33:10

like not full yet, and I was like,

1:33:13

I cannot think that she did that. I was so improssed.

1:33:16

And you see her on that you know, the CNN. All

1:33:18

that she did she answers every single question.

1:33:21

She has a plan for she's going

1:33:23

to like acknowledge you. I mean, she's

1:33:25

a great public speaker, and like a lot

1:33:28

of these women are. Kamala Harris is yeah,

1:33:31

like there's so many. And that's not to

1:33:33

say that like a Bernie or a Biden aren't like

1:33:35

these All of these candidates have their own

1:33:38

strengths. Peet Buddha judge, like, I understand

1:33:40

why people are excited about him. He has great

1:33:42

energy. His energy is great. He's a

1:33:44

really interesting figure. And the fact that he is an

1:33:46

openly gay man, like that matters, and

1:33:49

and we should be able to hold all of these things.

1:33:51

That's what it is. I think people get confused

1:33:54

and think that like, oh, it omits

1:33:56

and it's easy to do. I do this all. I get fatigued all

1:33:58

of the everyone's yelling at each other for

1:34:00

for there's eight thousand reasons that every

1:34:02

single candidate running for president on the dem

1:34:04

and Republican side are terrible for this

1:34:06

country and are great for this country. And it's just like, you know

1:34:08

what, let's just go inside and to take a nap. Like

1:34:11

I just feel like that's it's hard to it's

1:34:13

hard to get past that that fatigue

1:34:16

because but but we can handle it all,

1:34:18

like you can, you can

1:34:21

take it all in and then evaluated and process

1:34:23

it and it's not going to take anything out of it exactly.

1:34:25

And I also like caution people, you

1:34:28

know, we're early, early, so so

1:34:30

people making these proclamations

1:34:32

about you know, who's electable, like, guess what, none

1:34:34

of us know, ship, we don't know who's electable.

1:34:37

The thing that is the job of people

1:34:39

voting in the Democratic primary is

1:34:42

to evaluate the candidates and vote for the person

1:34:44

you think would do the best job, like who

1:34:47

who has the best plans, who is speaking

1:34:49

to the values you want to see you

1:34:51

know, uh telegraphed, and then

1:34:54

vote for that person, because the person who gets the most

1:34:56

votes is going to be the one who

1:34:58

is then representing that domination. I

1:35:01

think so a few people are willing to do the work because it

1:35:03

really is like it's like, yeah, if you want

1:35:05

a great leader, you have to put the work. And it's like just

1:35:07

like with anything else in life. If you want a great job, if

1:35:09

you want a great boyfriend a girlfriend, like you have to

1:35:12

put the work and it's not just going to be delivered to

1:35:14

you. And like there are so many internet websites

1:35:16

that like do it for you, that will take all the candidates

1:35:18

and make a just a fucking shopping

1:35:21

list of the beliefs that they have on the

1:35:23

on the things that might matter to you, and you can just

1:35:25

sit there and compare it, and like people are

1:35:27

just so unwilling to put like fifteen minutes

1:35:29

of googling into it. And I also think people

1:35:31

just get kind of caught up in the horse race or caught

1:35:34

up in like what they believe

1:35:36

that other people want. And I've been reading a

1:35:38

lot about this concept of electability.

1:35:40

Might colleague Amanda Turkele wrote a really

1:35:42

great, great piece about it, and

1:35:45

the truth is, like electability is not really

1:35:47

a real thing, Like we're we're all sort of

1:35:49

making that up as as we go. And

1:35:52

who's electable is determined by who is

1:35:54

elected. And there's been

1:35:56

a lot of candidates in the past. You know, look at

1:35:58

John Kerry, who is considered what we need him

1:36:00

because he is like highly electable, and then he

1:36:03

didn't win, so like we don't really

1:36:05

know. And Trump wasn't supposed to be electable at

1:36:07

all. So you know,

1:36:09

the again, like for Democrats, like to stop

1:36:11

guessing what other people want and vote for the person

1:36:13

that you would like to see. Yeah, privately

1:36:16

make a decision after seeing information

1:36:20

and don't base it off what you know. I

1:36:22

think that like I don't

1:36:24

know, just I see people being like, well,

1:36:26

yeah, I like this person, but I think we need

1:36:29

like an old white guy, because clearly

1:36:31

we're not ready for a woman. It's like, just vote

1:36:33

for the person that you think would do the best job.

1:36:35

And there's a lot of millions

1:36:38

of people and like that collective will

1:36:40

determine it. It's

1:36:43

exhausting. I'm already tired of it's but

1:36:45

it's like I got I was getting

1:36:48

dinner with them. We we interviewed her before.

1:36:50

It's one of my best friends mentors, Nadine Strawson,

1:36:53

who's the first female president of the

1:36:55

American Civil Literaries Union, and she and

1:36:57

I'm just I'm always in awe of how calm she is

1:37:00

because she's so she's a very busy woman. She's writing all these

1:37:02

books about sexuality and pornography, and she

1:37:04

debates a lot, and that's such an admirable

1:37:07

I I didn't I didn't understand, like, like

1:37:10

when we have conversations about politics,

1:37:12

it's so it's very little debating. Because

1:37:14

the art of debating, I think it is an art,

1:37:16

and I think one of the things that impressed me most about

1:37:19

it is no one really gets

1:37:21

that heated. It's it's like a game almost,

1:37:23

but you're using logic as as your as

1:37:25

your pawns um And I was just asking

1:37:27

her, like, how you never lose your ship. She's

1:37:30

like, I got mad once on stage because

1:37:32

I was like, she debates abortion all the time, and

1:37:34

and she debates these people that are,

1:37:37

you know, in my opinion, fucking maniacs.

1:37:40

And that is why I wouldn't be a god debater.

1:37:42

I bring too much emotion. She

1:37:45

just described one moment when

1:37:48

she got she lost her ship, which for her

1:37:51

was nothing. She was just like got kind of mad

1:37:53

for like a sentence, and that

1:37:55

made her like she lost her power in that.

1:37:57

And I'm like, man, I look at the conversations that people

1:37:59

are having about politics today, and

1:38:02

there it's fueled with emotion and heart because

1:38:04

it's identity. People are like, if

1:38:06

you attach if you live in the middle of the country and you attach

1:38:08

yourself to Trump, even if Trump kills

1:38:10

your family, you're going to support him because that's

1:38:13

who Because it's Trump fails, you fail.

1:38:15

But it's like, guys, divorce

1:38:18

that, divorce your identity from this ship,

1:38:20

like and and go like go with like what you

1:38:22

believe, which is I know, it's part of your identity,

1:38:24

but when you're that married to one person

1:38:27

or one policy or one believe, it's just there's no room

1:38:29

for discussion, right, And I think there's a

1:38:31

lot more commonality, uh,

1:38:34

you know when in terms of values,

1:38:37

but then we've decided that certain

1:38:40

things are our partisans. So so

1:38:42

it's like it's a pc different polls and it's

1:38:44

like, I can't think of a specific example,

1:38:46

but it's like sometimes if you just phrase the question

1:38:49

differently, you'll get wildly different

1:38:51

results. And a lot

1:38:53

of that is you know, it's like it's like the way that people

1:38:56

really hated Obamacare but really liked

1:38:58

the you know, Affordable Care

1:39:00

Act, right, like because

1:39:03

because they're all's affordable, everyone likes

1:39:05

the deal. But then like, oh, not everyone likes Barack

1:39:07

Obama. Right, If it's attached to Barack Obama, then

1:39:09

that's bad. And there was a lot of people who literally didn't

1:39:11

understand that the Affordable Care Act

1:39:14

was Obamacare. It's all yeah, it's

1:39:16

all in the it's all in the set. But people

1:39:18

want to have healthcare. And we saw

1:39:20

that, and we saw that that like cuts

1:39:23

across party lines. When

1:39:25

you know, when the GOP who controlled

1:39:27

the entire government at the time wanted

1:39:29

to roll that back and people were pissed,

1:39:31

is it Do you think that it's a responsibility

1:39:34

on publications parts too, you

1:39:37

know when you uh, they're just

1:39:39

they stoke ship all the time, like

1:39:41

every every news organization is guilty of

1:39:44

this. Uh and and it's and it's like

1:39:46

calling the Affordable Care ac Obamacare

1:39:48

and kind of just said because they know it's going to piss people off and

1:39:50

they're gonna click it like that's so funny. But I

1:39:53

don't think that's ever going to go away like that kind

1:39:55

of like, and I think sometimes it's hard to gauge

1:39:57

in the moment, Like I don't think it's so intentional,

1:40:01

like like about an article about

1:40:03

a woman, who, say, a famous

1:40:05

woman who was accusing

1:40:08

a famous other actor of something

1:40:10

that sometimes the headline will be so cunty

1:40:13

about that woman series, and it's like,

1:40:16

like, why can't you just say what the article is

1:40:18

and not try to cliffhanger me or make me mad

1:40:20

or make me think like is this woman

1:40:23

a bitch and a liar? Like That's kind of what some