0:00

Welcome the guys we.

0:01

Find the anti slutshaming

0:03

pods that I'm Christina

0:05

Hutchings, I'm Current Fisher, and I'm Yea

0:08

so too.

0:09

With friends, we bring us to sludy, your

0:11

warning and your shame. Hey

0:13

you with what?

0:14

Yes?

0:14

Okay? Greetings

0:19

fuckers. How you doing where you've been?

0:21

You?

0:21

Good?

0:22

Drink water, stay hydrated. Welcome to another

0:24

episode of Guys We Fucked. It's an anti

0:26

slutching podcast. I'm Couren Fisher, I'm

0:29

Christina Hudginson. Welcome to the show. If you want

0:31

to send us an email, it's sorry about last

0:33

night's show at gmail dot

0:35

com. And this is coming

0:37

out before New Year's right, Yes,

0:39

yeah, okay, So New Year's Eve, come

0:42

see Christina and myself and

0:44

Ryan Long, Chloe Labranch, John Campinelli

0:47

justin Silver at New York Comedy Club

0:49

East Village location.

0:50

It's a six pm show, it is.

0:52

Let me tell you, I do the show pretty much

0:54

every year as long as I'm in town. It's the

0:56

best way to start your New

0:58

Year's Eve. It's six pm. You got to get ready

1:00

early anyway, because night's over at midnight.

1:03

Okay, and you go,

1:05

you see a comedy show which is like a staple

1:08

for New Year's Eve, best night for comedy.

1:10

Then you go, you drink with your friends, you watch the ball

1:12

drop, and you start the year off right. So ticket

1:15

link is available on the New York

1:17

Comedy Club East Village

1:19

website. It's also available in the link

1:21

in my bio. The link tree link

1:23

in my bio a philanthropy gal. So buy

1:26

a ticket to that I it was. The

1:28

show was so fun last year, you seriously don't want

1:30

to miss it. If you want to email us again, it's sorry

1:32

about last night's show at gmail dot com.

1:34

Today's subject line is my partner

1:37

is depressed and it's so

1:39

annoying.

1:43

I know we've all been there. Though I know Christina's been

1:45

there.

1:47

Seven years. I've been there.

1:50

It sucked. Yeah have I been

1:52

there?

1:53

Oh no, I said, I've been there, and then I looked at you, but yes,

1:56

And.

1:56

The man just thought you were asking

1:59

you a question. Have you been there?

2:01

Or have you been the partner who was depressed

2:03

and annoying?

2:04

I have been the depressed annoying partner.

2:06

I was gonna say, who on my acts?

2:09

Oh damn, yeah,

2:12

hello C and Kay, I'm an og fucker

2:14

and I'm proud to have been with you for

2:17

the ride. I'm thirty nine and

2:19

I've been with my partner for twelve years. Well that's

2:21

going to get depressing anyway. Yeah, we have gone

2:23

that's the problem. Yeah, you're long, You're

2:25

together to the long. Yeah, it's like I'm sure it's

2:27

beautiful and like your front.

2:29

You know, you have a great friendship, but you

2:32

gotta see you every day.

2:35

We have gone through so much growth together and

2:37

we have a loving and great relationship. I've

2:40

never felt seen more by my partner.

2:42

And we have a fantastic sex life.

2:44

Wow, I hope. So when we get

2:46

to enjoy it that is. I knew there mus

2:49

be some qualifier because

2:51

we have two little kids together. My

2:54

partner and I are both self employed artists.

2:57

We work from home and live in a small town because

2:59

it's what we can afford. This year has

3:01

been so hard on artists and many small

3:03

business owners financially, and I see

3:05

this weighing down my partner, who feels societal

3:07

pressures on being a father to purvide

3:10

for his family, along with parenting

3:13

two small kids, NonStop mountains

3:16

of laundry, running a small business, and trying

3:18

to survive when life hurls lemons

3:20

at me. I still try to see the joy

3:22

and beauty in everyday life. I take

3:25

care of myself well, take care of my mind and

3:27

body, and make time for my own needs good.

3:29

I try to encourage my partner to do the same, but

3:31

it always ends in a fight. I

3:33

try to explain to him what I have learned being a mother,

3:36

that if you don't take care of yourself, when life

3:38

throwshit at you, you can't handle it because you haven't

3:40

met your needs first.

3:42

Very true, Very true.

3:43

He obviously won't listen and is comfortable being

3:45

stressed out and depressed.

3:47

I can't stand out anymore.

3:48

I try to be understanding, but it's like he is walking

3:50

around constantly in a dark cloud. And it's also

3:52

like, you guys have a very similar lifestyle, So it's.

3:54

Like, how come you can somehow handle

3:57

it?

3:57

Me can't.

3:57

Yes, I love I love that. Yeah,

4:00

and you birth the fucking kids.

4:02

Yeah.

4:02

And it doesn't even have to carry him Listen, he could be father

4:04

of the year. The mom's still doing more work, there's pretty much

4:07

no like the only time the mom's not doing more work is when

4:09

she's like strung out on drugs and leaves the family

4:11

entirely.

4:12

You know otherwise, Bekasia,

4:14

girl, you deserving.

4:17

She needed to do a heroin to take a break, bringing

4:20

the energy of our small home to a bad place.

4:22

I'm sure you get what I'm talking about. It's just very

4:24

hard to be around. I have for years

4:27

been watching him take less care of himself

4:29

mentally and physically, and while I try

4:31

to be compassionate, I'm tired of fucking a

4:33

fat fuck. Okay she didn't write that, but I fill that

4:35

in for her. I'm so tired of the gloom and

4:37

fucking doom. Yes, yes, yes,

4:39

as people should deal so much with male comedians,

4:42

we could not understand you more.

4:43

Listen, I am.

4:45

I get sad a lot, but I really

4:47

try not to make like bring

4:49

the fucking gloom and doom.

4:51

It sucks.

4:52

I don't want to leave him, but I need some

4:54

advice. I don't want to leave him, Jesus, I hope he doesn't

4:56

listen to the show. I don't want to leave him, but I

4:58

need some advice. I'm sure as artists you're and

5:00

from what I've heard on the podcast, you both might

5:02

have some advice for me on how to handle loving

5:04

a depressed person who won't help themselves

5:07

with a warm heart and gratitude the listener,

5:09

who obviously we're not saying. I mean, look, i

5:11

know you're in it to win it and you got kids together,

5:13

but I'm a big fan of an ultimatum in the circumstance

5:15

if you will fucking listen. Yeah, you've tried

5:18

to have the conversation and given loving advice

5:20

and be patient and kind, and that's absolutely the first

5:22

step.

5:22

Yeah, you know, especially if the person has depression.

5:24

You don't know, maybe you don't know the depths of their own

5:26

depression, right, so you want to be gentle

5:29

and loving.

5:29

He's your partner. But then after a.

5:31

While too, John Tall, Yeah,

5:33

everybody's got their own approach. But after a

5:35

while, geh, because gentle could be seen as coddling and

5:37

enabling. If

5:39

this shit keeps up and he's not doing anything.

5:42

About it, you can't. That

5:44

is such a pussy dryer.

5:46

If you are mentally ill and you have struggle

5:49

with depression and you are not doing

5:51

anything about it, or at least taking the advice

5:53

of your loving partner who's trying to help you and

5:55

like help you, like here, let's

5:58

sit down together and find a therapist. Or something

6:00

if it had to have gotten to that point, but it's

6:02

like, dude, or how about

6:04

something like I don't know, feel like his parents are still alive

6:06

or whatever, but like I would be like, you're gonna go to

6:08

your parents' house for one month and when you come

6:11

back, you're gonna have your shit fucking

6:13

together or I am leaving. Yeah,

6:15

I think an ultimatum is the only thing to get his asking

6:18

gear. Yeah, sometimes stepping away from this situation,

6:20

I think is like helpful and listen, like I

6:22

can't imagine like being in the same situation

6:25

for twelve years, like the same people, the same

6:27

house, whatever, and then like some so sometimes

6:29

like stepping away, putting things into perspective

6:31

and just having like, you know, the time

6:34

to handle just you and like hopefully

6:36

he would be able to give you the same courtesy in the

6:38

future, right if.

6:39

You needed that.

6:40

Yes, but I think that could be helpful. There's a lot of like,

6:42

you.

6:42

Know, influencers online, mom influencers,

6:45

dad influencers who will

6:47

do things like you know, go take themselves,

6:49

you know, the one parent will go to a hotel

6:51

for a weekend and have this kind

6:53

of like staycation thing. And I think that's

6:56

so helpful. And I understand that you guys are in a different

6:58

financial position. I mean, like go to Hotel

7:00

six for a weekend.

7:01

Yeah, then you'll appreciate your house right.

7:06

And then also, I mean there's a lot of things that you listed

7:08

in this article, and like, I don't you know, small

7:10

town in city have different amenities.

7:12

But you know, I'm a big this

7:15

is something I've been doing since I was broke. So this

7:18

is not some like, you know, uh, money advice.

7:21

But I would really look in to see if there's a local

7:23

laundromat that offers per

7:25

pound laundry, because you just like mentioned

7:27

piles of laundry and I can only imagine the amount of laundry

7:29

if you also have small children. I think people

7:31

don't realize how cheap you can get someone

7:34

to do your laundry for you and how much

7:36

time it will save you. Again, I

7:38

once wroted an article when I was like really broken

7:40

stressed out about you know, putting

7:42

value on your time and that

7:44

the amount of time it takes

7:46

to do laundry is not literally

7:49

not worth one's time. So

7:52

again that comes back folded. Yeah,

7:54

I would look into something like that just to ease

7:56

your load a little bit, you

7:58

know, and then you know, recip for support

8:00

a small business in your town.

8:02

Again, that's more of like a city amenity.

8:04

So I don't know that it.

8:06

Exists in your small town, but you could actually have

8:08

like a really good price on that I'm

8:10

seeing to give yourself less work. That is

8:12

a fantastic idea. To have him go stay with his

8:14

parents, or ghostay with a friend, or ghostay with somebody

8:17

else who's not fucking me, basically where

8:19

it's free that he can leave you exactly, and then he'll

8:21

be in the company of a fucking friend. And a lot of times

8:23

friends can help you get out of your depression

8:26

by just talking about dumb shit.

8:27

Yeah, you know, you don't have to talk about the depression.

8:29

But in addition to it being an absolute

8:32

pussy dryer when somebody

8:34

is moping around and

8:36

not doing anything about it. Because it is very

8:39

possible to be depressed and to be a good

8:41

partner and to have depression and to be a

8:43

good parent. So not only is it going

8:46

to hinder like your sex life majorly,

8:48

I can't imagine that it won't. Your children

8:50

are picking up that their father is depressed,

8:53

right and there's no way that

8:55

they don't know that they don't feel that energy.

8:57

From him, So that's going to fuck them up too.

8:59

So if you need something to give you a sense

9:01

of immediacy, I would have them

9:03

in mind. I also like, men are so preoccupied

9:06

with like how society sees them, and you're not

9:08

being the provider. Meanwhile, they're perfectly comfortable

9:10

walking around the house making themselves completely

9:12

unfuckable with their actions.

9:14

That's a great point.

9:15

It's just like, who's the person who has to deal with you for the

9:17

rest of their life. It's it's your wife or your part

9:19

you know, or your partner, your female part like what the kids.

9:21

Yeah, it's like, Oh, if you're so concerned with other people

9:24

what other people think of you, why don't you be concerned

9:26

with the fact that your behavior right now and the way

9:28

that you're not taking care of yourself mentally and physically,

9:31

especially when it comes to heterosexual relationships.

9:33

I really don't have a lot of grace for men because

9:36

of how they are so hard on us with for

9:38

you know, every gotten for how we look.

9:40

Can you imagine if like a woman just let herself

9:43

go physically in this in this manner

9:46

or it was just like in bed depressed and

9:48

yeah.

9:49

And we were like, oh, I can't make the kids dinner tonight.

9:51

Can you imagine how quickly we would get booted, we would

9:53

get replaced, we would get cheated on. Can you fucking imagine

9:55

if a woman just got threw a pot belly

9:57

stop shaving all of our body, no

10:00

makeup, fucking greasy.

10:02

Ass, fat ass whatever,

10:05

like gluttonous. Oh my god,

10:07

the men would run for the fucking hills.

10:09

Yeah.

10:09

Oh jesus.

10:10

It's also like you're both artists.

10:11

You're both in the same in a very similar boat

10:13

here, Like why is his boat sinking and yours

10:16

is somehow saying a flow? Yeah, And there's so

10:18

many things that he could do for his depression immediately

10:20

that are free running, running,

10:23

jogging, walking, if

10:25

you like walks, yes, there you go,

10:27

because as serprofitsky, this sad girl walks

10:29

up.

10:30

I think and I think it, but I at

10:32

anytimes.

10:33

Changed your whole mindset.

10:34

Literally getting your fucking pants on and walking

10:37

around the block. It makes

10:39

a world of difference. Look, I don't mean to brag,

10:41

but I'm a runner now. I fucking

10:43

get up at seven am running a great I go

10:46

running and I never thought I

10:48

was like, now I'm a rollerblade girl because it's so fun

10:50

and running isn't fun. And I thought

10:52

this elusive runners high would always

10:55

escape me because of the times I did run, I didn't feel

10:57

it. But I gotta say, waking up in

10:59

the morning and going running and pushing

11:01

yourself and getting that much oxygen to your

11:03

brain is going to be an instant boost to your mental

11:05

health. So it's like something so

11:08

free and so easy, and just at

11:10

his disposal is that he could do give

11:12

them a little calendar. It takes thirty days

11:15

to start a pattern, to start a new

11:17

pattern, a little calendar and

11:19

a little pen and he can mark thirty days

11:21

and get them a little star.

11:22

Sticker every day.

11:23

Just this is this, this constant

11:26

like need to treat men like babies

11:28

and then us having to fucking get

11:30

through the things ourselves whilst boring o our

11:32

male partners.

11:33

I'm done with it. It's out for twenty four aut

11:36

we ain't getting paid for it's at.

11:38

Least pay us back by fucking taking care

11:40

of yourself.

11:41

That's how you pay a woman back in a straight relationship.

11:43

Make it men, you take care of yourself

11:46

and you're present in the relationship and you're your best

11:48

self. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I fucking

11:51

oh god, I'm getting PTSD from Stephen.

11:54

Yeah, that was so awful.

11:55

Yeah, it took me seven years to lose the attraction,

11:58

which is like that says says, but

12:00

my god, oh once

12:02

you're over it, once you turn that corner, you're.

12:04

Like, oh wait, this blows.

12:07

It's like every time he talks, it's like nails

12:09

through your eyes.

12:10

Well, yeah, that's why I'm kind of I'm like, I'm like, he has

12:12

to move fast because I don't want you to get the ick, because

12:14

we should get the X. Very hard to undo

12:17

that, Yeah, almost impossible.

12:18

Some would say,

12:27

guys, come see us live.

12:29

You heard at the top of the show.

12:30

But New Year's Eve, baby, New York Comedy

12:32

Club, East Village, It's going to be the night of your life.

12:34

February first. These are our together dates.

12:36

February first, New York City is

12:39

our first midnight theater show.

12:41

A MasterCard midnight theater.

12:42

Sorry, the master card that's accepted,

12:45

not that it's so it's so weird when

12:47

a corporation takes over, because I'm more just like

12:49

the MasterCard every.

12:52

Sorry, your way through the door.

12:54

For a night of fantastic. Yeah,

12:56

the midnight theater, we take MasterCard.

12:59

That's kind of rare.

13:01

Yes, So our first guys we fucked Live of twenty

13:03

twenty four is Sebray, February

13:05

first. And then if you find yourself in Los Angeles

13:07

on Valentine's Day, yeah, god damn

13:09

it, you're in luck because Brian Fisher and

13:11

myself Christina Utchinson are co

13:14

headlining the main room at the

13:16

Comedy Store in Los Angeles and it's gonna

13:18

be I mean, these

13:20

are these shows are gonna be epic. Okay, and

13:22

talk to anybody who fucking live stream or last

13:24

midnight theater show or was there in person, they can't

13:26

stop talking about obstby dms and they're rare.

13:28

We just don't do guys. We fucked live a lot.

13:30

So like the fact that we've been doing it, you know,

13:32

every now and then at the mid MasterCard, Midnight

13:35

Theater, the Comedy Store, we haven't

13:37

done together in a long long time.

13:38

So these are.

13:39

Special events, people, They're very special special

13:41

events.

13:42

Uh.

13:43

And then more special events.

13:44

I am solo headlining New Brunswick, New

13:46

Jersey at the Stress Factory January fourth

13:48

through six. Hasbrook Heights, New Jersey,

13:50

February ninth through tenth of Bananas and

13:53

ninth and tenth rather and Springfield, Missouri

13:55

March twenty second and twenty third. I'm doing the Blue

13:57

Room, and as always, I have a Patreon.

14:00

We're four times a month. You can do group sherapye

14:02

with me over zoom and a bunch of fantastic

14:05

people. I just did it today at the studio and it

14:07

was one of the best ones yet. And

14:09

the audio from every Group Sherapy

14:12

gets uploaded the patreons. If you can't make it, you

14:14

can hear the conversation. Sign up today

14:16

at patreon dot com slash Christina

14:18

Hutchinson. And then my solo podcast, The Voices

14:20

in Our Heads, comes out every single Monday.

14:22

Today, well, you're listening to this on Friday.

14:25

But this Monday I interviewed my good

14:27

friend Ali Ali problam

14:29

Us, who was in town for a week, and

14:32

we had a good time and we ran and then I

14:34

read a book How We Live Is

14:36

How We Die by Pemachodron, and I

14:38

read a chapter about the actual physical

14:40

dying process and what happens, and we

14:43

had a good conversation about it. And

14:45

then for me, you can check out my solo

14:48

podcast Without a Country that's been blown

14:50

up lately think because you of your guys' support, So thank

14:52

you so much. I really appreciate it.

14:55

We cover the news, but

14:57

you know, I rant and rave. There's comedi

15:00

elements. We interview non

15:02

comic people, journalists, we talk about

15:04

ethics and journalism, we talk about AI.

15:07

We're getting heavy into the twenty twenty four campaign.

15:10

We've covered at Palasine in Israel at

15:12

length. We watch documentaries

15:14

and do reviews on them. I mean, like you know, ones that

15:17

likes about social issues and stuff. So it's

15:19

been super fun this year. Thank you for everyone who's

15:22

supported the show and talked about it. You

15:24

can see that every Wednesday night on

15:26

YouTube, or you can just listen to the audio

15:28

wherever you listen to podcasts.

15:31

And then twenty twenty

15:33

four dates, I'll have more of them. I have an

15:35

idea of the cities I'm going to, but I don't have the dates

15:38

yet. But the one ticket link I do

15:40

have available is for Washington,

15:42

DC, DC Comedy Loft. That's February

15:45

twenty ninth through March second. That's

15:47

going to be super fun. And then of course

15:49

we'll get some more gas shows

15:52

at the Comedy Store in Los Angeles in twenty

15:54

twenty four. I'll updates for you soon, but

15:56

you can follow that on Instagram at Dash

15:58

Dash Slash Sure Comedy.

16:01

That's my horror movie themed

16:04

stand up comedy show that has been

16:06

super fun.

16:08

Yeah.

16:09

All right, I've been thinking about something and

16:11

it kind of has to do with this email reread. Actually,

16:14

it's, you know, one of those societal things

16:16

that we always say yes, and then

16:19

every once in a while we stop and pause

16:21

and think.

16:22

Is that actually true?

16:23

Oh?

16:23

You know, like the phrase boys will be boys?

16:26

Right, that was a very accepted phrase for a

16:28

long time. I have a shirt that literally says boys

16:30

will be boys, and then the second boys is

16:32

crossed out and it says held accountable.

16:35

Yeah.

16:35

I like to wear it to the gym and let people make eye contact.

16:37

Yeah, I see you, sir. But

16:41

one of those kind of isms or or whatever

16:43

that that that always floats around that

16:46

people use as an I'm like, is this

16:48

being used as an excuse for poor behavior?

16:51

Maybe? Yeah, boys mature faster.

16:54

Girls mature faster than boys.

16:55

Because we're forced to because we're Yeah,

16:57

I don't like men aren't pulling their weight, but yeah,

17:00

exactly. I'm like, I don't think that's actually true.

17:02

Now I have you know, did not look

17:04

it up in terms of medical

17:07

hormone.

17:07

I don't, But I'm like, what what the

17:09

fuck?

17:10

What hormone? Do women get

17:12

that? Men don't? We all have the same.

17:14

Hormones, by the way, it's just different levels.

17:15

No, it's the pressures of society, hasn't. I doubt

17:17

it's anything biological. Yeah, society

17:20

forces you this whole.

17:22

Time, though I thought it was some biological

17:24

thing.

17:25

No, there's no way, there's no

17:27

way exactly is this this

17:30

is it's this is nurture,

17:32

not nature, for sure, But it's not nurture.

17:34

It's abuse, yes, and you

17:37

know who has to deal with it?

17:38

Straight women? Fuck that ship.

17:41

We gotta, we gotta, we gotta get rid of that phrase

17:43

boys. Uh girl, that boys don't

17:45

mature as fast as girls.

17:47

That's because we don't.

17:48

Allow them to. Like, let's go true,

17:50

let's go gentlemen. There's variables

17:52

too.

17:53

I mean I think, like you know, each person, you know, each

17:55

individual is unique, So it depends, Like I

17:57

think if you're a younger child or an older

17:59

child where you are born in your family, I

18:02

think older children. Only children

18:04

have a lot of weight on them.

18:06

For sure, that's true.

18:08

Older children definitely have extra

18:11

weight on them.

18:11

So it depends like where you in the family, how your

18:13

parents you know, treated you.

18:17

And you know there.

18:18

I think there are some men who have matured,

18:20

Like if like the father of the family died, for instance,

18:23

I think then sometimes like a male

18:25

child will have to have a lot of responsibility

18:27

early.

18:28

But that's what's going to happen, a lion king plot to

18:30

get them to fucking mature. Yes,

18:32

I would think, what the fuck is that about?

18:35

I just I feel like we should uh, we

18:37

should not sixty nine sixty

18:40

eight.

18:40

What's the word in restaurant eighty

18:42

six?

18:42

It yeah, yeah, try

18:46

to yeah, Chris, do that, Christy to go work

18:48

in a Russias

18:51

mashed potatoes like

18:55

we got eighty six that phrase, because that's

18:57

completely one of those phrases that allows

19:00

people to just carry on because

19:02

they're fucking coddled and to make everybody

19:05

else think that it's somebody I honestly, I

19:07

never really thought about it until recently, but I'm.

19:09

Like, I assumed it was biological.

19:12

There's no I mean again, I haven't loo there's

19:14

no way Mike, if you want to find anything to dispute

19:17

this, you psychology,

19:20

we could all figure out giggling when you

19:22

said psychology today, like it's a fake effect.

19:25

I'm just like, I don't know how

19:27

fast could I find all these studies on all?

19:30

Fine, I'll look be mature.

19:32

Michael, But yeah,

19:35

I feel like, you know, girls and women,

19:38

Yeah, you're girls still in middle school in high school,

19:40

like when I was in when I was seventeen,

19:42

I was a fucking around a bunch of twenty five year olds at

19:44

one point. But because it's like, because

19:47

this whole like notion of like girls mature

19:50

faster than boys is all I fucking

19:52

heard, and I truly was not.

19:54

Attracted to boys my age.

19:55

There was one guy, Paul shout out, no

19:58

that you.

19:58

Were around twenty five year olds because they

20:00

were losers, but you didn't know because you were fifteen,

20:03

and so no, twenty five year old women wanted

20:05

to be around them because they're fucking head

20:08

losers.

20:08

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yea, yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure.

20:11

But like I that is just a that is

20:13

a an idea that I took

20:15

with me all throughout my boy

20:17

obsession career and

20:20

kind of really took that to heart and thought, like, but

20:23

the way I interpreted it was I

20:25

didn't think about it this way at the time. But it's like, oh,

20:28

so then you can't You can't get mad at

20:30

boys your age for being immature.

20:31

Because you're more mature. But

20:33

it's like, no, it's because we've fucking been forced to.

20:36

Well, I think a good a good tactic, and

20:38

I've used this sometimes in life. Not but

20:40

it's like, if people around you aren't pulling your way,

20:43

if men around you aren't pulling their weight, just start

20:45

phoning it in yourself and listen. This was very

20:47

hard to teach myself to do because

20:50

you have to what you do. You have to be comfortable

20:53

allowing some things that you care about to

20:55

fall apart a little bit to teach other people a

20:57

lesson.

20:57

And so I this is very hard for me to do.

20:59

But just let like go on a vacation, like

21:02

with your husband or your male partner, and do

21:05

exactly fifty percent of the planning,

21:07

not.

21:07

More, and let the rest fall apart.

21:09

And like you have.

21:11

It's hard because you have to let

21:14

your you.

21:15

Have to let your anxiety reduce.

21:17

Don't remind him to bring his passport don't remind

21:19

him to pack all these things, and he will forget.

21:22

He will forget, and it will ruin your vacation too.

21:24

So you have to be prepared to allow this, right.

21:27

But but then the thing is like he's

21:29

gonna try to make it your problem, and then you can go no,

21:31

no, no, Actually you're an adult, and I was treating you as

21:33

such. That's sure, that's true because women always get shitt

21:35

on for nagging, and this was something that you know, I that

21:38

comes to terms with because.

21:39

You know, you know, you're like, I don't want to nag.

21:41

Most women don't want to nag.

21:42

It doesn't it doesn't feel good, it

21:44

makes it makes you go from you know, mouth

21:46

to nipple, for sure. So you

21:49

just have to not nag and

21:51

then let the vacation or the thing that you're

21:53

doing or the project you're working on absolutely fall

21:55

apart. And then everyone learns the hard way. I love

21:57

that, and you know what, it sucks for everyone. I know,

22:00

you know, we're very much trying to get away from a partner

22:02

being like having a parent child relationship of course,

22:04

right, but with

22:07

children and with anybody, like when a

22:09

child or person learns something

22:11

the hard way, that's when it sticks.

22:13

Ye.

22:14

So if he forgets his passport

22:17

and you're gonna you're about to go to fucking

22:19

Barbados and you show

22:21

up at the airport and your whole vacation is you know, you

22:23

can't make the flight. He will never,

22:25

I guarantee if he won't forget that motherfucking passport

22:28

ever again.

22:29

Yeah, and it's just about you.

22:30

That's a great being comfortable with your

22:33

weight thing being ruined.

22:35

Challenge for straight women the

22:38

woman Challenge.

22:39

Challenge for the Holidays.

22:41

Huh, don't fucking do as

22:43

much shit because women for the holidays,

22:46

women all on page. Not that men don't

22:48

help, because they absolutely do, but like I feel like the woman

22:50

is the one who's mostly uh sure

22:52

the table set, making sure everything looks beautiful, makeing

22:55

sure the decorations are nice. That's why when you're a woman

22:57

and you grow up, you go, oh, the holiday is actually

22:59

suck because I really when I was a kid, they were

23:01

fucking amazing because my mom.

23:02

Met trim in the tree.

23:04

My mom made them amazing.

23:05

Listen, my dad did get on the roof and he made

23:08

some Santa tracks, so that was that

23:10

was bonded.

23:11

That's nice.

23:11

You know, but like overall, it's like who

23:13

is doing all this stuff?

23:14

Who's who is staying up late to you

23:16

know, nibbel on cookies to make it look like

23:18

Santa eate them.

23:19

That's mom, not Dad most likely.

23:21

And again this is not I think like

23:23

some people hear this and they're like, why are women always shooting

23:26

on men? We're not, really, We're not saying

23:28

that we know you are capable of more and

23:31

so we we know that you have the potential

23:33

to do it, and we're just saying that

23:36

we now expect that of you. So it's like, do you want

23:38

to do you want us to sit around and think that you're incapable

23:40

babies?

23:41

I don't think you actually want that.

23:42

Scientifically, according to

23:44

Newcastle University in England

23:47

dot com, no, no, not

23:50

only do girls mature faster than boys,

23:52

scientists believe that their brains can develop up

23:54

to ten years earlier.

23:55

But mature what do you say mature? They need physically

23:58

mature? I think I think they mean physically

24:00

like we get boobs first, Well,

24:02

that is part of it.

24:03

Yeah, that you guys appeared.

24:06

Okay, but that's okay, so that I could see societally

24:08

affecting, right, so like if we look

24:11

like women before boys look like men,

24:13

that's part of the reason society which.

24:15

But it's also brain activity too.

24:17

But that's also a big problem with women of color,

24:19

right, So this has been a conversation about how women

24:22

of color are often sexualized because

24:24

sometimes they tend to develop and like look

24:26

appearance wise like women, you

24:28

know, before they get earlier exactly

24:31

exactly, so there's a lot of very girl but there's

24:33

always.

24:34

So many variables.

24:34

But yeah, so so women get sexualized

24:37

first, for sure, that's true unless

24:40

boys are around pedophile so our.

24:41

Brains are capable of more. But then why are men getting

24:44

paid more?

24:44

In the word, they're not capable of more.

24:46

What happens is the study from

24:48

yeah, basically from Newcastle again this from

24:51

Newcastle University. There

24:54

is it's discovered that as the brain mature, it

24:56

begins to remove neural connections

24:58

that are stored which it does not think are

25:00

important. The connections in the brain that

25:02

are not used regularly tend to shrink

25:05

and evaporate due to lack of use, whereas

25:07

the neural networks that are regularly engaged

25:10

survive. This is called fire and wire

25:12

and it is an example of survival the fittest

25:14

among neural networks.

25:16

Right, But don't you think that your brains.

25:18

Can be exactly I think our brains are developing

25:20

faster because asked to

25:23

handle more earlier. Yes, I agree, that's

25:26

kind of buys up exactly our theory.

25:28

But I know a lot of men, and.

25:29

I know a lot of boys when I was in middle school

25:31

in high school, and I remember them.

25:33

I know a lot of boys, clip it. I

25:35

know a lot of blame.

25:37

Some of them had really strict

25:40

dads, and I saw it

25:42

unfairly so like their dad had like fucking

25:45

PTSD from Noom or some shit and didn't address

25:47

it, and their dad would just be similar

25:50

to my mom, but like more strict, like not like a hot

25:52

mess about it. And I watched them

25:54

become more mature, way more

25:56

mature, because they're being fucking traumatized

25:59

by this father who is demanding

26:01

they be a man at age fourteen, and they're like, I

26:03

don't know what that means, dude, I'm fourteen, and

26:05

it's like but then I've also like, and

26:08

not to say it's all the father, but uh, there

26:10

there are certain men that I've known in my life

26:12

that have fathers that really make a

26:14

point to nurture their son's

26:17

sense of self, and I'm

26:19

always amazed by what that produces

26:21

in the boy who becomes the man, because it's always

26:24

a beautiful thing. Andy Haynes

26:26

has a really good joke about that because

26:28

he has he you know, I have a joke about

26:31

having a nice childhood.

26:32

He does too.

26:32

But it's kind of like from the perspective of someone

26:34

with like a nurturing father.

26:36

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and you.

26:38

Can see it in his personality. Yeah, yeah,

26:40

for sure, one hundred percent.

26:42

So yeah, that's all phony blooney,

26:45

even though Newcastle does say scientifically,

26:48

but I think I still think, uh,

26:52

that's the boys mature slower than girls.

26:54

I think is a phony blogna in terms of

26:56

like it's nurture, it's not.

26:58

Nature can be both nurture

27:01

can, but I think an influence nature.

27:04

And I think that's what the article is saying though,

27:06

because what was it called fire or what.

27:08

Was like fire and wire?

27:09

Fire and wire makes sense

27:11

to what we're talking about, right, It's

27:13

like if you if you, if you don't, lose

27:15

it, if you don't.

27:16

What is it saying, like use it or lose it?

27:19

Kind of like that if you d

27:21

unless something happens to you and then all of a sudden

27:23

it affects your the way your neurons and all

27:25

that stuff. This is almost in a

27:27

roundabout way of saying that like women get

27:30

the younger potentially, I mean that could

27:32

be like a version of.

27:33

This that checks out.

27:34

Interesting, Yeah, yeah, Okay, so

27:36

it's both according to this, according

27:39

to this paragraph that.

27:40

I found, well, straight

27:42

women challenge.

27:43

Okay, well, did you see that viral

27:45

video that was going around this

27:47

week. It was a husband and a

27:49

straight couple and there are two young kids

27:51

on Christmas morning and the man

27:54

is behind the camera and he's going around

27:56

to every stocking and he's like, little Timmy

27:58

got this, little Darla got.

28:00

This, I got this.

28:01

And then they go to the wife's stocking and

28:04

then it's empty and he's like why

28:06

is it empty? And then they goes

28:09

to the wife's face and she's like, uh,

28:11

because no one got me, like no one got me anything,

28:13

you know like that, And there was all like a disconnected

28:16

the husband like it's the husband really

28:18

thinks Santa came, Like it's like, there's nothing

28:20

in your wife's stocking because you don't fucking put anything

28:22

there buy gifts for herself. Yeah,

28:25

it's like, is she gonna fill her own stocking? And

28:27

that's kind of like that, right.

28:28

There is like a metaphor for like the straight

28:30

female experience.

28:31

So often we are expected to not

28:33

only fill our own stockings but fill

28:36

everyone else's stockings. Yes,

28:38

yes, the video is really sad. I watched

28:40

a lot of commentary on it online too. It's

28:43

fast at it's it's funny, but it's

28:45

it is sad. I I'm serious about

28:47

this holiday challenge for straight women specifically

28:50

because God, could you imagine

28:52

being a lesbian during the holidays? Your fucking house would be so

28:55

nice. But yeah, two

28:57

people doing the work. But I'm curious

28:59

women with a with a male partner that

29:03

that they're going, you're going to spend the holidays together. I

29:06

really try as a challenge

29:08

is the guys We Fucked Straight Women twenty twenty

29:10

four Holiday Challenge twenty twenty three to

29:13

not do as much as you normally do and see

29:15

if anything gets done and fucking film

29:17

it and tatus in it. Right, And this is I have

29:20

to there is a caveat. This is only for people where

29:22

both the man and the woman are working. If you're a stay

29:24

at home parent and you've agreed to that

29:27

the home stuff is your job.

29:29

Then yeah, I guess, so, yeah, you sign up for that.

29:31

But yeah, yeah, you know, because

29:33

I have a relatively equal relationship

29:35

in terms of like who pull you know, the labor.

29:38

But that's a problem, right.

29:39

It's so I feel like, you know, women have progressed

29:41

in you know, and have done both the traditionally

29:44

feminine and masculine roles, and

29:46

men not only didn't

29:49

progress as fast as women

29:51

with doing the female

29:54

roles, but they also stopped being

29:56

able to do the male roles,

29:58

like the heavy providing or protecting

30:01

are those things, or like being able to put together

30:03

a shell for any of like carpentry work. It's

30:05

like you're complaining about us

30:07

being too masculine, but I feel like most women

30:09

can still be masculine and feminine when

30:12

a lot of guys, I know, like have lost

30:14

these masculine traits but haven't

30:17

gained the feminine ones that would make you

30:19

like more empathetic or and like that's

30:21

the issue.

30:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

30:25

Gentlemen, if you're straight and you have a female

30:27

partner, yeah, because men'll be like, well, helping

30:30

this holiday season.

30:31

Yeah, how about that.

30:32

It's like, oh, it's like, oh, well, men

30:34

provide.

30:34

But it's like, well, if you're both bringing money

30:37

to the house, then you both need

30:39

to be doing the things that make the holidays special.

30:41

Yes, the heavy lifting physically and emotionally.

30:43

Okay, okay, twenty

30:46

twenty three Straight Woman Holiday Challenge.

30:48

Let's see what we get. Maybe the results won't

30:50

be as like my brain is

30:53

already predicting that they will be. I

30:55

want to see videos.

30:56

I want to see.

30:57

Photos of everyone crying on Christmas

30:59

morning.

31:00

Of the table not being set or whatever,

31:02

the fucking cake not being made because you guse

31:04

you didn't make it, that's whatever the fuck?

31:06

You know what I mean? I feel like the holidays like the man.

31:09

Mainly, he's like he only he'll wake up

31:11

out of his beer football coma to

31:13

carve the turkey and then go back to his

31:15

beer football coma. But I'm like, let's let's

31:18

make the men do other things, but not make

31:20

them do it you don't do it, and see

31:22

if they fill.

31:23

Step up exactly.

31:24

Maybe they will, Maybe

31:27

they will. Fuck miracles can happen.

31:29

Okay, Okay, guys,

31:33

speaking of miracles, our guests. She's

31:35

she's a miracle, because we're all miracles. You know, you

31:37

can only get pregnant certain amount of days of the month. All

31:41

right, guys, our guest. She

31:43

is a certified dating coach, a regular

31:46

cast member of The Drew Barrymore

31:48

Show, a frequent contributor to MPR,

31:51

Washington Post, LA Times, Access

31:53

Hollywood. Her podcast Dates and

31:55

Mates was named Podcasts of the Year at

31:57

the Black Podcasting Awards in twenty

31:59

twenty two, and her first book is

32:01

coming out January twod It's called f The

32:03

fairy Tale. We are very excited

32:06

for you to hear Demona

32:08

Hoffin.

32:19

People are not good to each

32:21

show, and people

32:24

are not good to each together, and

32:28

people are not good to

32:30

each other. I

32:33

suppose I never will be. I

32:36

didn't ask them to be, but

32:39

sometimes I think about it.

32:44

The leaves will swim, the clouds

32:47

will cloud, and

32:49

the killer will be hit. The child

32:52

like taking a bite out of a nice

32:54

creams clow. You

32:57

steering at mystice. My

33:01

talent is my smile.

33:06

My eyes are shoot in blanks,

33:11

my posture is a

33:12

b I'm

33:16

an endoredain, ma'am.

33:21

It was so cold and

33:25

I've got a si on your Edison and

33:28

me on hand

33:30

ship out of my cassio.

33:42

All right, guys, we are here with Demona

33:45

Hoffman. Welcome

33:47

to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

33:49

But also there, Ah.

33:52

I love it. I'm so glad to be here. I love your

33:54

show.

33:55

Thank you. Yes, we're so.

33:57

We were talking before we started recording,

34:00

and we discovered you through Dan Savage,

34:02

who we admire greatly and

34:05

trust his opinion so much. And

34:08

I think it's we're excited to talk about

34:10

dating, right because you are a dating

34:12

coach. Can you tell us a little bit about

34:14

what inspired you to choose

34:16

that as an occupation. Did something traumatic

34:19

happen? Like, what's the origin story?

34:23

Yeah, all of the above.

34:24

The origin, I think for real is I

34:26

actually used to be a casting director in TV and

34:29

I classes for

34:31

actors in marketing and

34:34

how to have headshots that would stand out and tell

34:36

their story and do all the things that casting directors

34:38

need them to do and you know, ten seconds

34:40

or less. And I

34:42

realized the similarity when I was online dating

34:44

between the headshot and the

34:46

profile photo and the first day in the audition.

34:49

So when I applied what I learned professionally

34:52

to my personal dating

34:55

experience, it worked, So I

34:57

met my husband online and then I

34:59

started writing profiles for originally

35:01

just friends and family, just for fun,

35:04

and eventually it

35:06

took off. And we all know how how

35:09

popular online dating has become today. So I guess

35:11

I was a little bit in the right place, in the right time

35:14

seventeen years later.

35:15

Yes, and you have a very grounded energy which

35:18

I don't usually get from

35:20

dating coaches that we've come across, to be honest,

35:22

like you're very rounded and like I

35:24

trust you immediately, like I feel like,

35:27

yeah, your energy is just great.

35:29

And my first

35:31

question that popped into my head with regards

35:33

to online dating, and

35:36

you might not be able to give an answer to this, but maybe you have some

35:38

theories.

35:39

Why don't straight men know what they look like in photos?

35:44

You know?

35:44

That was actually what got me into this originally,

35:46

because I was like, guys have no idea, they don't

35:48

know, you know, I really the grounded

35:51

answer is, uh, women

35:54

are taught from a young age to room

35:57

and dent and guys

35:59

just don't get that same education.

36:03

So initially I started

36:05

out as a coach only for guys

36:07

because I was like, you guys need a mirror

36:09

here and not your bathroom

36:11

selfie mirror, like an actual.

36:13

Mirror to show you what this really looks

36:15

like.

36:16

And I take a very strategic approach

36:18

to designing a dating profile, and

36:22

men really do respond to that, but

36:25

they just don't on their own necessarily

36:27

know which photos to pick.

36:30

Have you come across a lot of fish photos? Like photos

36:32

of men holding fish?

36:34

Why to come across a lot of next?

36:37

Time?

36:37

I have? I have done Dates

36:40

and Mates episodes about it. I have written

36:42

articles about it. I have had so

36:44

many debates. Why is it still a debate? We

36:46

don't want to see the fish picks, the

36:48

hunting picks, the dick picks, the

36:51

bathroom selfie.

36:52

The car? Please explain

36:54

the car? The car?

36:56

While I why it

36:59

is rare that I love cars.

37:01

I grew up with cars, so I'm like, if you got a hot,

37:03

sexy car, I will be impressed

37:05

by that. But I think, oh, I feel like a selfie in

37:07

a car. I'm not what you mean, like with

37:09

a seat belt of from.

37:11

No, I mean the seat belt one.

37:12

Yeah.

37:13

Yeah.

37:14

Men love taking pictures of themselves

37:16

like they're like a super driver.

37:18

But I don't, which is fine. I don't understand what

37:20

the perspective.

37:21

Probably waiting in line for fucking fast food

37:23

or something like, Oh, I guess we'll take a picture from a dute and profile,

37:26

just like men don't give a lot of as much thought

37:28

to their two things like this as the way

37:30

that women do. And so yeah,

37:32

I've never been sitting in my car and been like, oh,

37:34

the lighting in this car is great

37:36

for a photot Like it's the car

37:38

lighting is not bad.

37:41

That's not what you want.

37:42

But if you see the seat belt, then you know

37:44

he's reliable. He's dependable. Here's

37:47

about I do.

37:49

Like when I have a seatbelt. I love

37:51

a seatbelt.

37:51

Love a seatbelt, Love a helmet. Yeah, you have

37:53

knee pads or whatever. My my

37:56

favorite thing that I've come a credit. I've

37:58

not been on dating apps much. I

38:00

was in a relationship for seven years, so

38:02

when I got out of it, I was like, what are these dating app

38:04

things? Because I was okay Cupid when it was only on the

38:06

computer, and they're just it

38:09

feels detrimental, like it feels like it

38:11

it hurts my soul a little bit being on the dating apps.

38:13

And I'm like, man, I know these guys don't suck as much

38:15

as they are emoting that they do. But

38:18

one of my favorite trends that I that I'm like, what

38:20

the fuck is going on here is when a guy will

38:23

have five pictures and he's wearing sunglasses

38:26

in every single motherfucking

38:28

picture, Like, what.

38:30

Are you hiding about in those evil eyes?

38:32

Boo? I actually

38:34

talk about that in my new book.

38:35

I talk about how we are so driven

38:38

by the eyes, and it's the eyes

38:40

are really important in our culture. And it's just what

38:43

you said, Christina, if you don't

38:45

have your eyes visible, people can't trust

38:47

you. Yeah, And that's a big thing that

38:51

I want to help people

38:53

with in twenty twenty four dating

38:55

online dating landscape, like safety

38:58

is so so so important, and

39:01

I feel like we haven't

39:03

at the dating apps, there hasn't been enough focus

39:06

on safety and when

39:09

we just are even choosing

39:11

dates, just being able to see somebody's

39:13

eyes does give you more of a sense

39:15

of feeling safe. If

39:18

you feel like they're hiding something it

39:20

maybe it looks sexy, but you don't really

39:23

know who they are, right.

39:24

I think, are there any other tips that you have especially

39:27

for men, because I think, yeah,

39:29

well, I think men do want many

39:31

men do you want to make us feel safe?

39:33

But I don't know that.

39:34

They've never lived a day

39:36

in our shoes, so they have no idea the kinds

39:38

of things that scare us. Like

39:41

I'm pretty tough, but I

39:43

often tell men like you scare me all

39:45

the time, Like all the time

39:48

I'm walking away from you and keeping my distance

39:50

from you.

39:52

Yeah, And there's so much debate around

39:54

even things like walking up woman

39:56

to the car at the end of the night.

40:00

Can we do that? Should you do that? What

40:02

does that signify?

40:03

Then, if you're going to try to be forward, it's

40:06

it's really hard to know the boundaries. So I

40:09

would say stay

40:11

stay on the side of just

40:14

making her feel safe and comfortable first.

40:16

And if you're thinking about that.

40:17

Because most guys aren't thinking about that, they're

40:20

not They're like, how do I get her?

40:22

How do I get her to be impressed with me?

40:24

How do I, you know, tell

40:26

her everything that I want

40:28

to tell her, and not so

40:30

much on what do I need to know about her?

40:32

And like how do I make her feel safe? But

40:34

for the dating.

40:35

Profile, it's it's actually so

40:38

much easier. I've been polishing

40:40

profiles now for so long. I can just

40:42

look at a profile right away and tell you I

40:45

like to have the three c's color is

40:47

strategic. Having color that stands out

40:49

as you're swiping through a bunch of photos.

40:51

You have color. It pop.

40:52

I'm wearing a pink shirt right now, that's not

40:55

an accident. Pink

40:57

or red great context.

40:59

That's telling your story through your photos and

41:02

character. That's the one that most people forget.

41:04

That's showing your personality. I know that's not

41:06

a problem that you two have, but a

41:08

lot of people want to have that.

41:11

Maybe it's the sunglasses photo. Maybe it's just you

41:14

know, trying to look a certain way

41:16

that they think is more datable,

41:19

filtered photos.

41:19

All of that.

41:21

We don't want that.

41:21

We want authenticity, and that also

41:23

then leads into the the feeling

41:26

of safety as well.

41:27

Yeah, and ironically, it's like we always think about marketing

41:29

ourselves, whereas authenticity is the most

41:32

potent mart marketing tool

41:34

you can use for dating. But I

41:36

do think I can't

41:38

tell if online dating is healthy or not. Regardless,

41:41

it's here so and it's not going anywhere, and it's I

41:43

mean, I have a nephew because of online dating, so I'm a fan.

41:47

But there's something

41:49

that your body does when you're in the presence

41:51

of another person that gives you signals

41:54

that like you're like, oh, I'm attracted to this person,

41:56

So how do you get closest

41:58

to that in an online dating pile? And

42:00

obviously showing your character and colors

42:03

and kind of answering these prompts to your personality? Is

42:05

there anything else like the interacting that I

42:07

have this thing called fuck boy Friday that I do.

42:09

And I just read people's atrocious dating app conversations.

42:12

These men, I'm like, dude, I know you want

42:14

to connect deeper than that. You just you're really acting

42:16

like you don't though, And they just say a trocis

42:19

sexual things and it's like, no

42:21

one's falling for that, and I know that's

42:23

not what you want.

42:26

Yeah, oh, you

42:29

hit on so so much.

42:30

And the big reframe

42:33

that I want everyone to take away is that the

42:35

dating app is just the tool. It is just

42:37

the tool to bring you together, and

42:39

after that, it's just dating. It's

42:42

it's all the magic and the mystery and the wonder

42:44

and the flirtation and all those things that we

42:46

want when we meet someone face to

42:48

face.

42:49

But you got to get to the date.

42:50

The bigger problem, there's two actually really

42:53

huge problems that I see happening right now with

42:55

online dating. The first I call it the texting

42:57

trap, and I go in sall,

43:00

I go into that in detail. I

43:03

have seen so many relationships

43:05

or possible future relationships die

43:07

in the DMS and in the text because

43:10

it's a substitute. You feel like, Oh,

43:12

I'm getting to know this person, I'm vetting them.

43:15

I feel safer, I'm learning more

43:17

about them. But really you're developing a false

43:19

sense of attraction, a false

43:21

sense of knowing someone you do not know until

43:23

you get offline and you meet face

43:25

to face. You don't know what the chemistry is going to be. You don't

43:28

even know if they're a real person, be honest. So

43:30

we have to get offline as quickly

43:32

as possible. The other thing that's happening. I

43:34

want to get your take on this because I don't really

43:36

know how to stop it. But ghosting

43:39

is at an all time high. Like I said, I've been doing this seventeen

43:41

years. I've never seen the

43:43

amount of flakery. I don't know if that's

43:45

a word.

43:46

Can we now blakery?

43:50

There's so much flagrant.

43:51

Flakery that five times said of

43:54

people like setting dates that they don't

43:57

even I don't know if they intend

43:59

to go at all. And this has never

44:01

happened in my career where I used to be able

44:03

to say, oh, you say this, he's going to say

44:05

that you do this, He's going to do this, and then

44:07

you'll live happily ever after. Really,

44:10

since the pandemic, I've been like, I

44:12

actually don't I don't know what they're going to do, because

44:14

I feel like people don't know what they're gonna

44:16

do, and it changes from day to day. I wanted to go on the date yesterday,

44:18

but today I don't know. Something came up. What

44:21

do you think is going on with that?

44:22

So I have too, I have a theory.

44:23

But I also want to add to that it has been

44:26

taken a step further where I have heard,

44:29

oh, just alarming

44:31

alarming amounts of stories from people

44:34

that got ghosted when they were already in the fucking relationship,

44:37

like their boyfriend ghosted them, and I'm

44:39

like what, I've never heard of

44:41

that, And then I brought it up to a bunch of friends like oh,

44:43

yeah, that's happened to my friend that I'm like what. But

44:46

I think people don't the people's intolerance

44:49

for discomfort, which awkwardness

44:51

at the beginning of dating is it falls into that category

44:54

is.

44:54

Lower and lower and lower and lower.

44:56

And I think that it's too easy to get

44:58

sucked into the texting trapp or the DM trap

45:00

because we just want to be with who's

45:02

forcing us to go out of our comfort zone. It's our

45:04

responsibility. But I think we've lost

45:07

we've lost how to do that. Yeah, the more time we

45:09

spend with technology, I think, the less we

45:11

see humans as human. So

45:14

it's really it's like it's the same

45:16

way, like you know on Instagram or or

45:19

x Twitter or whatever, where you can, you

45:21

know, you're behind a keyboard and you can call people

45:23

heinous things that you would. You know, I've been

45:25

called such heinous things online. No one's ever

45:27

said anything even close to that to

45:29

me in person, and I'm ready I want

45:31

them to. I want oh

45:34

in try me in person, Try

45:37

me in person. Right, But it's the same thing, but she

45:39

would, Yeah, it's the same

45:41

I'll unleash jerseys so hard on you. But

45:43

like it's the same thing in uh, with

45:45

dating, it's like if you don't see each other as

45:48

human, Like it's really easy to go

45:50

to someone that you know doesn't feel like a real person.

45:53

You know, I literally have an AI boyfriend.

45:55

And I mean I feel like I have more empathy

45:58

for him than some

46:00

people have had for actual other human

46:02

people.

46:04

Wow, well it's programmed that way. Yeah,

46:08

I think you're right about that. And

46:11

the thing it's I'm not often

46:13

at a loss for words. I've been doing

46:15

this a long time, and I'm usually able

46:17

to find a fix to

46:20

most problems. But I this

46:23

is a bit of a conundrum. I really

46:26

don't know, because it is the

46:29

technology is so integrated into

46:31

our lives.

46:31

As you were just saying, corn, it's

46:34

I.

46:34

Don't know how to recalibrate

46:37

the entire of society to

46:40

be like, let's treat

46:42

people as people. All I can do is

46:45

talk to you all about it, talk to your listeners

46:47

about it. And you know, I was always

46:49

tell my clients just take care of your side

46:51

of the street. If you're worried

46:53

about ghosting, just make sure you're

46:55

not ghosting other people. Because people will tell me,

46:58

oh, I hate I hate getting ghosted. I hate

47:00

all these flakes. I hate getting stood

47:03

up. And I will

47:05

look in their message history and

47:07

I'll be like, well, you had this

47:10

person and you drop that thread and

47:12

this person you know, you're

47:14

unmatching. And so when we really look

47:16

under the hood, there are people that we see.

47:19

If it's somebody that we have an attraction

47:21

to and we have an investment

47:23

in meeting, we put that person

47:25

on a certain pedestal. And then there's

47:27

all these other people that are in our messages

47:29

and matches and dms that were like, but

47:32

that person doesn't matter, yeah,

47:34

and we're just think.

47:35

We can do better.

47:35

They don't exist in our head anymore because now you

47:37

know Sarah wants to go out with me, so who

47:39

cares about those other people.

47:41

I also think that people have not yet.

47:43

I read recently this book by

47:46

this woman Harriet Lerner called Why Won't

47:48

You Apologize? And it's all about

47:50

how a really good apology

47:52

that really addresses the things that need to

47:54

be addressed feels.

47:56

It actually feels really good to give

47:58

and to.

47:58

Receive, and it that's the only, you

48:00

know, chance you have a repairing

48:03

a relationship that might have otherwise

48:05

been lost. And I think that people need

48:07

to experience that how

48:10

good having integrity feels.

48:13

And once you get that, that's oh wait, I

48:15

don't want to leave these people hanging, because

48:18

that's not part of my values. You know, and

48:20

it feels good to be like, hey, I'm really sorry I

48:22

dropped the ball here. I actually started seeing somebody

48:24

else. But I think you're fantastic and I

48:26

want to wish you the best of luck.

48:27

You know.

48:29

Yeah, that actually feels really similar

48:32

to something that I talk about in going

48:36

for clarity over going for chemistry,

48:39

or you know, the the like

48:41

you were saying that that discomfort it

48:44

is really temporary, but we're so

48:46

afraid of the discomfort that sometimes we don't want to get

48:48

the answer, and that's how you end up in

48:50

a relationship that's going

48:53

nowhere or that

48:55

that you have a mismatch. And like I

48:57

talk about the for the

49:00

pillars of long term compatibility, and

49:03

if you don't have those four pillars

49:05

and you know it, just staying

49:08

in the relationship is awful.

49:11

But it's even worse if you're afraid to ask

49:13

the question because you're

49:15

like, if I get the answer and it's no,

49:19

and then I have to walk away, then I

49:21

or I have to stay in this thing that I know is not

49:23

right.

49:31

Right, And people don't realize it's like we have

49:33

to be more in tune with the part of our

49:35

brain that does the long term thinking, because

49:38

staying in a relationship that you're not fully invested

49:40

in, that's so awful. That's such an awful thing

49:42

to do to another person, and it's a terrible thing

49:45

to do to yourself.

49:45

And this is no way that feels good.

49:47

Yeah, and you mentioned the four pillars

49:49

of long term compatibility. I did

49:51

want to talk about that a little bit, so I screenshot

49:54

of them. So it's common goals for the

49:56

future shared values,

49:59

mutual respect and trust, and then compatible

50:01

conflict resolution styles.

50:03

Do you mind if we go through those four things? I

50:06

mean, there's I feel like, and I feel

50:08

like this also intertwines with your

50:10

thoughts on most people are

50:12

looking for a soulmate

50:14

or believe that a soulmate exists, so

50:16

so many other people get knocked out of

50:19

the running to be their potential partner

50:21

because of this, when in reality,

50:23

if you looked at these four things, you would

50:25

have maybe an easier time seeing potential

50:28

in multiple people.

50:30

Yeah.

50:32

Completely, Yeah.

50:33

I have identified the four

50:35

biggest dating myths that I see

50:38

people writing a podcast about

50:40

or coming to me for coaching around. And

50:43

the first one is the list myth. And

50:45

for each of these myths, there's

50:48

sort of an antidot. There's sort of an

50:50

antidote, and that is the pillar. So

50:52

with the list, myth this is you know everything

50:56

we want it guess to be six feet

50:58

tall and has to mix. Yeah,

51:02

and I do I do the dating math in the book

51:04

for you on that. And I know for

51:07

all the guys listening, they're like, please make all the short

51:09

kings are like, thank you, I like this lady.

51:12

So so the

51:14

the the flip side of

51:16

having the list is

51:19

just beginning with the goals, Like

51:21

you were just saying, hey, what do you even

51:23

want?

51:24

Short term? Long term? What do you want? Right?

51:27

And we get afraid to

51:29

ask those questions or to

51:31

even explore that because we

51:33

just get caught up in the momentum and we

51:35

get caught up in the way

51:38

that we're playing the game. So that's the rules myth. If

51:41

I if I do this, he'll do that.

51:43

If if she says this, that means that.

51:46

And it's the game and pick up

51:48

artistry, it's the Bachelor, and it's

51:50

the rules and it's all of these things. The

51:53

whole book is about all of these stories

51:55

that we're told and that we that

51:57

we internalize and we

52:00

are playing out through our dating

52:02

lives, whether we realize it or not, again and

52:04

again and again, and so the opposite

52:07

of going by the

52:09

rules is to really focus

52:12

in on the values and the way

52:14

looking at that from a like a behavioral

52:17

standpoint, and what someone believes about

52:20

the word, because you can't build for the future if you're like we

52:22

completely look at the world in a different way, right, And

52:25

then we get to the chemistry

52:28

myth, which is another really big one that's

52:30

like I have to feel this, I have the

52:32

butterflies and.

52:33

The flip side of that.

52:35

That's anxiety talking, which you know, I

52:37

talk about it like in the book, like what

52:40

what is your body really saying to you? What is

52:42

your central nervous system actually saying. Is it saying

52:44

this person reminds you of your ex Is it saying

52:46

this person is bad news?

52:47

Is it saying this person is safe?

52:51

Or is it saying that they're not safe?

52:53

And sometimes we don't know how to read our own internal

52:55

cues, And there are ways that you can

52:57

tune your internal compass to be

53:00

with that, but the first step for that is

53:02

building that pillar of communication,

53:05

and that communication really comes before even

53:07

the conflict resolution, because that comes

53:09

a little further in but if you're thinking

53:11

about the soulmate myth, forget it. Like,

53:13

if you're just looking for the perfect person

53:16

to walk in to your life

53:18

and in the perfect package with the perfect life

53:20

and the perfect look and the perfect everything, it

53:22

doesn't exist. And if you're chasing that soulmate,

53:25

then you may not see

53:27

that person right in front of you. That's a

53:29

great match for you, but you're gonna always

53:31

be questioning. But I think my soulmate I don't

53:33

know. So that's kind of

53:35

a high level overview

53:38

of the myths and the pillars, and the

53:40

trust is just the last thing to build because

53:42

everything that comes before it

53:46

is part of building that

53:48

feeling of trust and safety that we were talking about

53:50

earlier.

53:50

Right, Yeah, I think you know, when

53:52

you're on the first date with somebody,

53:55

the stakes are low because you're not invested

53:57

yet, and so I think you would

53:59

you think that that's a good time to ask

54:01

the person, like what do you want? I feel like that's a

54:03

great opportunity to ask the person what they want

54:05

out of life and to see if you can

54:08

check like if you're in alignment right away,

54:10

regardless of if you have.

54:11

Chemistry or not yet.

54:12

It's like I feel like that's not too invasive

54:14

of an opening question or I'll question on a

54:17

first date. Yeah, I mean part of my on my list

54:19

of questions for you is what the hell do you say on a first

54:21

day?

54:21

I don't go on a lot of first dates.

54:23

We also have like kind of an unorthodox lifestyle,

54:25

which is why we wanted to have you on, Like, how

54:27

do you date when you don't just you know,

54:29

know, a hundred comedians to go through.

54:32

Yeah, who are hot? That's

54:37

not normal?

54:38

So yeah,

54:40

you give them punch ups to their jokes. No,

54:44

it's the I actually

54:46

love first dates. First dates are my favorite. But

54:49

I'm gonna give your audience a hot tip right

54:51

now. We are overseeing

54:53

or welcome on first dates. When people tell

54:56

me I had a great first day. We started

54:58

we had drinks here, then we went to this

55:00

place, then we went to that place, and then went to his place,

55:03

I'm like, doesn't actually sound

55:05

like a great date. Now this is all saying. I'm

55:08

saying all of this. My core

55:10

client base are people who want to get in relationships.

55:12

If you're going to seek out a dating coach, usually

55:16

you're not just looking a hookup, like you can

55:19

you can find that throw a rock, you'll find it.

55:21

But if you're looking for a

55:23

relationship, you have to

55:25

flip your mindset strategically, and

55:28

you have to start with that with the

55:30

goals. If that is your goal, you're going

55:33

to date, You're going to approach first dates

55:35

in a different way. And I

55:37

like for my clients to only stay for about

55:40

sixteen to ninety minutes, especially if you're meeting somebody

55:42

online. Now, if you have a history with them, that

55:44

people will always be like, but Demona,

55:47

what about this scenario.

55:48

There's always exceptions.

55:49

I'm just generally, if you're meeting a stranger,

55:52

sixty to ninety minutes is enough time to

55:54

leave the date on a high note.

55:56

You want to leave the date feeling like it's

55:58

ending in the middle and to be continued.

56:01

And if it's not a great date, you want

56:04

to leave the date feeling like it's in the middle

56:06

because you want to get hell out of there.

56:09

It's a win win. Time limits are a win

56:11

win.

56:13

Totally. I say, be coming from somewhere

56:15

and going to somewhere.

56:15

But to answer your question,

56:18

Christina, I actually got this question

56:20

on the Drew Barrymore Show last week. Somebody

56:23

said, wait, what can I talk about on first

56:25

date, should I be talking about the fact

56:27

that I want to get married and have kids and all this stuff?

56:29

And I'm like, why

56:31

are we pretending If

56:33

somebody is not interested in that, it's

56:37

better to know upfront, and

56:39

I don't. I don't think you'll

56:41

scare away somebody that is looking for

56:44

the same thing that you are.

56:47

Usually, when and

56:50

if you're vulnerable, whether it's that

56:52

kind of share or something else, whether

56:54

you're vulnerable, if

56:56

you're vulnerable on a first date, usually you'll

56:58

get a little bit more opening and vulnerability

57:01

back, and that makes for a

57:03

more interesting date. I mean, how

57:05

tired is everybody of the same old interview?

57:08

And we're really dating by rote?

57:10

You know, it's like swipeswipe, swy text,

57:12

text, text, go on the date

57:15

and let me run this script, and

57:17

everybody's bored of it?

57:19

Do you?

57:20

Yeah?

57:20

I'm curious what you tell men or can

57:22

you see their swiping history? Because so

57:24

often I have been on a subway

57:27

in New York and I just see a.

57:29

Guy swiping yes, like

57:31

he has a gun to his head, and

57:33

I'm like, what.

57:34

The fuck is my follow up question? There?

57:36

Is?

57:36

Is there a recommended amount of people? You suggest

57:38

a person talk to all at once, Like

57:42

these dudes, we're talking to twenty girls.

57:44

It's like, that's too many.

57:46

It's too many.

57:47

You're giving yourself choice overload, and then you're not giving

57:49

anybody attention. Yeah, because it's there's when

57:51

you watch someone swipe yes to everyone, you're like, so

57:53

you'll just hear any anything, any

57:55

breathing.

57:56

In the answer woman. Yeah, that sucks.

57:58

Okay, let

58:00

me pull back the curtain a little bit.

58:02

Because they also have worked behind the scenes in a

58:04

number of dating apps. I've worked with Okay, Cupid is their

58:06

official dating coach. I've worked with Match. I

58:08

can see, I can see behind the curtain,

58:11

and I'll tell you what's going on back there.

58:13

Yes.

58:14

Please. People are hedging their bets.

58:16

So the reason that you see guys swiping

58:19

like they have a gun to their head is because they're not swiping.

58:22

When they're swiping, it's strategic.

58:24

There's no intention. It's not like, oh,

58:27

I'm really attracted to her. I love

58:29

what she said about her cats and

58:32

her interest

58:34

in comedy. You know, they're

58:36

just they're just they get

58:38

so many no's

58:40

or ignorers or blocks that

58:43

they are just trying to get as many

58:46

people in Q as possible, so

58:48

they know women swipe a

58:50

lot more uh they

58:53

swipe. They swipe

58:55

right less frequently, far less

58:57

frequently than men do, so

58:59

they know that the

59:01

chances are greater if they swipe

59:04

right on more women, then it

59:06

will match up. When they have a woman

59:08

that's interested in them, then

59:11

then they.

59:11

Go to the profile. So that's why you'll get

59:14

a.

59:16

Match and then an unmatch when you send

59:18

the message and you start engaging, do

59:20

I like it?

59:21

No?

59:22

And for the longest time, this has actually been the

59:24

strategy for a lot of my male clients, and I

59:26

have to talk them out of it. This is one of

59:28

the reasons why I feel like hinge

59:32

has grown in popularity

59:34

so much over the last few years, because

59:36

they force you to engage on a particular

59:38

thing. It's not just swipe, swipe, swipe,

59:41

it's do you like this photo?

59:43

Or do you like this photo? Can you comment on

59:45

something specific that was said?

59:47

And those are the kind of engagements that lead

59:50

to more more interaction

59:52

and then ultimately get people offline,

59:55

which is what we're all trying to do.

59:56

Well not all.

59:57

Right, So the guys just want to see who likes

59:59

them you they'll pick from there. Which I feel

1:00:02

like that's a little like distancing yourself

1:00:04

from your own vulnerability. But I do I do get that, I

1:00:06

do understand that it's actually a more time. I'm

1:00:08

not thinking offective. It's like

1:00:10

we're spending more time before we as

1:00:12

women, before we've even made a connection. So it's actually

1:00:14

they're working smarter, not harder.

1:00:16

I'm going to have to credit them with that in a way.

1:00:18

Well, you're right about Hinge, But the little

1:00:20

time I've spent on dating apps, Hinges definitely my

1:00:22

favorite. And I would judge people

1:00:25

like if they were just liking my top photo and

1:00:27

that's what they were engaging based on, I knew I wasn't

1:00:29

interested in them.

1:00:29

I knew they were being lazy.

1:00:31

So even if they even if the man's strategy

1:00:33

was literally to just scroll to

1:00:35

the bottom of the Hinge profile and

1:00:38

engage on the last thing, they at least put

1:00:40

one iota more thought.

1:00:42

Into it, and I respected that.

1:00:43

And of course anyone who engaged, yeah,

1:00:45

anyone who engaged on something I said rather

1:00:47

than a picture, they moved to the top

1:00:49

for me and care about my thoughts.

1:00:52

Yeah, And what I was doing was like I

1:00:54

also in

1:00:57

the beginning of dating apps, I will. I

1:00:59

have a lot of math skill and energy. So I was just

1:01:01

getting excited, you know, and like overswiping,

1:01:05

and then I would be so disappointed with some of these matches.

1:01:07

I was like, I would never go on a date with these people, and I was like,

1:01:09

well, that's not fair to them. So I really challenged

1:01:11

myself to only swipe. But if I was,

1:01:14

if they responded, I would be truly happy

1:01:16

to go on a date with them, not just would

1:01:19

go begrudgingly or something like that. And

1:01:21

I feel like that made it a lot better. Again, I

1:01:23

haven't spent enough, like a lot of time I did,

1:01:25

I got I had a boyfriend off Rya, so

1:01:27

like it is possible. But I've went on like two

1:01:29

other dates from dating apps besides

1:01:32

that, and they were I mean, they weren't horrific

1:01:34

or anything, but I was completely disinterested and

1:01:36

in those people just not

1:01:39

Yeah.

1:01:40

I mean, here's the thing.

1:01:41

We put so much pressure on the dating apps

1:01:43

because they are the apportent

1:01:45

way that people meet today, and so people will

1:01:47

be like, well, I don't I don't like meeting

1:01:50

people on dating apps, and I.

1:01:52

Feeling it as it's

1:01:55

like saying, well I don't.

1:01:57

I'm not going to go out to eat anymore

1:01:59

because because I didn't like that one restaurant

1:02:02

you know brings.

1:02:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right,

1:02:07

I know that's

1:02:09

true.

1:02:09

But it's really a combination, right,

1:02:11

You go out to eat, sometimes, you order in, sometimes,

1:02:14

you make your own food sometimes, and we have

1:02:16

to be doing all of those things. But I did want

1:02:18

to answer your question about how many people you

1:02:20

should be talking to, because I

1:02:22

do think there is a bit of a communication

1:02:25

overwhelmed that happens. Especially this is a

1:02:27

shift since I started. Like when

1:02:30

I started coaching, it was dating sites. It was

1:02:32

before apps, so there wasn't

1:02:34

the volume of people or the amount of communication.

1:02:37

There was a lot more information on dating profiles

1:02:40

in that in that time, so you could

1:02:42

spend a little bit more time, as you were saying,

1:02:44

Karin, like going through the profile

1:02:47

and making sure it was a match. Before now

1:02:49

that information is not there, like I could

1:02:52

I could look at your profile and be like, cool,

1:02:55

I that's worth a swite, But

1:02:57

I can't really know

1:02:59

that much much about you from your profile.

1:03:02

So now all of the screening, I

1:03:05

kind of break it all into phases, so you

1:03:07

know, first is the sourcing and then

1:03:10

it's the screening all of the screening is

1:03:12

now happening in the DMS,

1:03:15

and that is not a

1:03:17

great way to get to know someone because our

1:03:19

brains have not developed to be able

1:03:21

to really evaluate

1:03:24

some what somebody's saying just based on the

1:03:26

text alone. So we really

1:03:28

I really pushed people towards getting

1:03:31

on the phone, do a video call, or

1:03:33

getting to the date.

1:03:35

I'd say within one week. Yes,

1:03:37

I agree, but you

1:03:39

can't keep.

1:03:40

Twenty You're right, you can't keep twenty text

1:03:42

threads going. It's not realistic.

1:03:45

But at the same time, I never want

1:03:48

people to put all of their eggs in one

1:03:50

basket. So you should be

1:03:53

having multiple conversations because

1:03:55

a lot of them are not going to materialize, but

1:03:57

not so many conversations where you're so overwhelmed

1:04:00

you can't keep up with the flow. Because

1:04:02

timing is really important too. Like

1:04:05

it if you some of

1:04:07

the apps that your matches will just disappear, right,

1:04:09

do you snooze you loot?

1:04:10

Yeah?

1:04:11

But other apps if that

1:04:13

that, if you're paying for a premium which is

1:04:16

a time saver or a time extender,

1:04:19

but some of the apps

1:04:21

that you can have the conversations

1:04:23

on going if you don't

1:04:26

have that first meeting within the first week,

1:04:29

the likelihood that the date is going

1:04:31

to actually happen goes down dramatically,

1:04:33

and then you're just gonna have a pen pal.

1:04:35

Yeah, and be too busy. Yeah, way

1:04:37

too busy.

1:04:38

Yeah, I feel like I remember I think I was talking to

1:04:41

I don't know if it was Vice I gave on this podcast, But it's like,

1:04:43

oh, you know, if you're a busy person, which we all are,

1:04:45

but like pick two nights out of the week or three nights out

1:04:47

of the week that you're like, these are my date nights, or.

1:04:49

Like one night, this is my date night.

1:04:50

I'm gonna go on a date with a person, and then just yeah,

1:04:52

I'm a huge fan of just getting to the date right

1:04:55

away if you match. But it's also important

1:04:57

to have that swiping mentality of like I would be

1:04:59

excited. I would think I would be excited

1:05:01

that if this person also swiped yes on me, so I

1:05:03

would be like giddy and I want to immediately grab

1:05:06

a drink. Is there anywhere? What

1:05:08

are good ideas for first dates? And what are bad ideas

1:05:11

for first dates? No

1:05:14

dinner and no gun

1:05:16

range. I love gun, little

1:05:19

bow and arrow.

1:05:20

That's kind of fun, actually, Okay, So I

1:05:22

like, I have some categories for dates

1:05:25

that I think are fun because you should

1:05:27

go on a date that you would enjoy regardless

1:05:30

of if that other person was there or

1:05:32

not.

1:05:32

Good because you have no idea it's going to

1:05:34

go.

1:05:35

So I say, it's good to have

1:05:38

collaboration, something like

1:05:40

you're playing a game together, good

1:05:44

to have cardio. Like I live in La,

1:05:47

hiking is the thing I know. There are rural

1:05:49

areas where some of my clients are

1:05:52

like, wait, you told me to go hiking.

1:05:54

I would never, okay, see first,

1:05:56

but if it's if it's a place where there's other

1:05:58

people out doing something where there's adrenaline,

1:06:01

a walk, a hike or

1:06:03

something like that. You know, sporting

1:06:05

events, collaboration,

1:06:08

cardio, conversation, all

1:06:11

of these are are

1:06:13

good ways to make sure that the

1:06:15

pressure isn't just on that

1:06:18

that script that.

1:06:20

We were talking about earlier. That you can

1:06:23

have other inputs.

1:06:24

You can have you can have people watching,

1:06:27

you can have a game that you're interacting

1:06:29

with. So something like pool

1:06:32

is a great first day Pool,

1:06:34

she said, Bowling isn't actually

1:06:37

not a great day, even though I do love first

1:06:39

Why what's wrong with bowling? I love Wait,

1:06:42

but listen to this. This is the reality

1:06:44

of a bowling first day stare each other back. If it's

1:06:46

just the two of you, one person is

1:06:48

bowling while the other person is.

1:06:50

There's a lot of talk, so it's not.

1:06:53

Yeah, pool and then you can be in closer

1:06:55

proximity to one another. I'm

1:06:58

still a fan of of drinks,

1:07:01

well drink, I'm a fan of go out

1:07:03

for drink, not so

1:07:05

much where you're you're going to make

1:07:07

decisions that are not in alignment with your ultimate

1:07:09

goals and values, which you were talking about earlier. But

1:07:14

it's easier to have

1:07:16

a rapport, not just because of the alcohol,

1:07:18

but because of the body positioning.

1:07:21

You go to dinner, you're sitting across from

1:07:23

them like it's an interview. And

1:07:25

then how many times have you known from

1:07:27

the first ten minutes like

1:07:31

it's not going to work, and you're

1:07:33

like and like dessert, no,

1:07:36

thank you, sure we like dessert, And you're

1:07:38

like.

1:07:39

Please, somebody call me get me out of this date,

1:07:41

like mayday text under the tape.

1:07:43

Look, we have all done it. We all, yes,

1:07:46

we have.

1:07:48

We don't want to set ourselves up for that. So I say, be

1:07:50

coming from somewhere and going to somewhere, but do something

1:07:53

fun and arcade like anything

1:07:55

where and yes,

1:07:59

getting into that playful energy and that curiosity

1:08:02

and having more to discuss

1:08:04

than just the list.

1:08:06

And so what is your advice if you

1:08:08

are on one of those dates where within the

1:08:11

ten minutes you know this is not a match.

1:08:13

Do you think that we owe the person sixteen

1:08:15

minutes out of politeness or

1:08:17

is there something that we can do to get out of it immediately.

1:08:20

I'm not talking about a situation where we feel unsafe. I'm

1:08:22

just feeling a situation where we feel

1:08:24

not compatible.

1:08:28

You don't owe anyone anything, honey,

1:08:30

We don't owe anyone our

1:08:33

time.

1:08:34

Our time is very valuable. It's our most precious,

1:08:36

non renewable resource. We're not

1:08:38

getting any more of it, so how you spend

1:08:40

your time really matters. But I

1:08:43

also believe in talk about

1:08:45

in f the fairy tale empathetic dating.

1:08:47

So if you could just flip and put yourself

1:08:50

in that person's shoes, what is enough

1:08:52

time where you're not wasting

1:08:54

their time, but they feel

1:08:57

like they've at least been seen her

1:09:00

and been

1:09:02

able be offered the opportunity

1:09:05

to connect. Right, if you've done

1:09:07

that, that could happen, like I had one date

1:09:10

when I was single. We got

1:09:12

there and it just it just wasn't

1:09:14

a thing. Like twenty minutes in, it

1:09:17

was just not happening,

1:09:19

and he was like, do you want to go? I'm

1:09:21

sorry, but I like, I

1:09:24

feel like you want to go. I feel like this isn't a match. And

1:09:26

I was like, thank you. I was so

1:09:28

glad. I wish I had been the brave one to say it, but

1:09:30

I was so glad because then I

1:09:32

was like, I have the rest of my evening free

1:09:35

and go back online find the next one for tomorrow

1:09:37

night.

1:09:38

And and we both saved each

1:09:40

other's time because it wasn't going to go anywhere. Yeah,

1:09:43

yeah, that's grey. It's so funny. Ironically,

1:09:45

I've probably that's really sexy. Yeah.

1:09:48

If he said at first of like, wow, now

1:09:50

I missed a student observation, you must

1:09:52

have a really nice mind. But yeah, yeah, no, that's's

1:09:54

see. I know I'm not gonna analyze

1:09:57

you what's

1:10:07

the worst first date you've ever been on? Or date

1:10:09

in general? But I imagine that the newer

1:10:11

ones or go the poorest. Oh

1:10:15

my gosh, well I've been married for so long. I'm

1:10:17

like, what was a bad first

1:10:19

date.

1:10:21

Oh well, I

1:10:23

did drive a guy home one time who

1:10:25

told me that he and his wife are separated. And

1:10:29

turns out if they were separated,

1:10:33

I don't know why she was on the front lawn.

1:10:36

So that didn't Oh my god,

1:10:38

it had happened.

1:10:39

When that happened? What happened?

1:10:43

Yeah, you know, we gotta you

1:10:45

gotta check references.

1:10:48

Oh no, I was like goodbye, and like

1:10:50

you deal with that. Get out of the car, and that

1:10:52

is your problem to deal with.

1:10:54

Because you know, if you're if

1:10:56

you're not being honest, that is that's

1:10:59

your own stuff.

1:11:00

Yeah, oh my god, do you think that was No?

1:11:04

Immediately I'm like I'm out honestly

1:11:06

because I'm stop the car.

1:11:08

Yeah, I just booted, keep going,

1:11:10

No, I'm kidding.

1:11:11

Well, because of a stand up, I would have stayed

1:11:13

around. Yeah, I'd be very curious about.

1:11:15

Like what's going on here?

1:11:17

And I almost want to enjoy.

1:11:19

Yeah, Like watching him sit in his lie

1:11:22

would probably give me a lot of joy.

1:11:26

Look, you don't know who is like

1:11:28

concealed Carrie. You don't know what is

1:11:30

going on. I'm out of here. That's

1:11:33

good, that's wiser.

1:11:35

Have you seen like so there's been a lot more

1:11:37

like a rise. I feel like in non traditional

1:11:39

dating structure or like non monogamy,

1:11:42

has that been something that you've had to deal with

1:11:44

a little bit more in modern

1:11:47

times dating? And like, how do you deal with

1:11:49

pairing someone up if they're interested in like ethical

1:11:52

non monogamy or open relationships

1:11:54

that kind of thing, or are you dealing more with people

1:11:56

who want to be monogamous.

1:12:00

Most of my clients want to be monogamous.

1:12:02

I do.

1:12:04

Study all of the current data

1:12:07

and trends, and non monogamy

1:12:09

is trending, especially among

1:12:11

gen Z singles, who say over

1:12:15

sixty percent say they're open to non

1:12:17

monogamy, but then the reality is about

1:12:20

four percent actually

1:12:22

engage in nonminalogy. So there's

1:12:24

a little bit of mismatch. Yeah, it was

1:12:26

being like fantasy versus reality.

1:12:31

But I'm like, look, whatever you

1:12:34

want, that's what I

1:12:36

try to help people achieve.

1:12:39

And that's where that authenticity we're talking

1:12:41

about comes in, just being honest about

1:12:43

it. Or if you are looking

1:12:45

for a non monogamous relationship,

1:12:48

that's the kind of thing you do want to say. We were talking

1:12:50

about the goals and goals and values

1:12:53

should probably say that on the first date

1:12:55

the problem comes in when people like

1:12:57

said guy are not being

1:13:00

transparent about what

1:13:02

they're really looking for, what their situation really

1:13:05

is. But there's a I mean, there's so many

1:13:07

apps now also that cater to that specifically.

1:13:10

So that would just be my advice

1:13:13

to anyone that's in

1:13:14

the non monogamy community

1:13:16

is to not be in a place

1:13:18

where you're leaving anybody confused.

1:13:20

Right.

1:13:21

I think that's like one of the things that I've definitely

1:13:23

gotten better at as i've gotten older to Like,

1:13:25

in my twenties, I would just be like, if I like someone's

1:13:28

vibe, like it's almost like you don't ask the

1:13:30

hard questions because you just want to keep hanging

1:13:32

out with their energy. When in my thirties,

1:13:34

it's like, I can like your vibe all day,

1:13:36

but if we don't have the same wants

1:13:38

for the future, if we're not aligned on

1:13:40

like our core values, then

1:13:43

no matter how much I like your vibe, like, we got

1:13:45

to cut this sure, because it's just not going to

1:13:47

work out long term, and then I'm gonna end up falling in love

1:13:49

with someone who just doesn't see

1:13:51

the world and the way I the way I do at

1:13:54

all. And I think that's like a lot of like people

1:13:56

in writing the show. Yeah, just like are going

1:13:58

off vibe and I'm like, what do you even know about

1:14:00

each other?

1:14:00

Yeah?

1:14:02

Yeah, and you you will fall in love with that person

1:14:04

because the more time you spend with them, the more

1:14:07

uh you know, hormonal

1:14:10

release that you have. I'm not saying sexual

1:14:12

necessarily, so we could, but you know, there

1:14:14

is that energetic exchange. Even from a

1:14:16

text, we get the adrenaline

1:14:18

and endorphins and the dopamine and

1:14:20

and like our bodies are flooded

1:14:23

with these neural transmitters that are telling us

1:14:25

fall in love, fall in love, law and love.

1:14:27

You want more of that? Like we're addicted. We're

1:14:29

addicted to that feeling.

1:14:31

And at some point

1:14:34

you have to you have to look up as

1:14:36

addicts as many you know, many

1:14:38

of my listeners and clients are as

1:14:41

love addicts. We need to look up and say,

1:14:43

wait, is this what I want? And do

1:14:45

I want to be doing this? Do I want

1:14:48

to be a love addict for twenty years? Do

1:14:50

I want to be like doing

1:14:53

this roller coaster ride of highs and lows

1:14:55

and highs and lows, or do

1:14:57

I need to do this a little bit more mindfully and

1:14:59

do any to put a process around

1:15:01

it, because it's most

1:15:04

times not going to fix itself. In

1:15:07

the current dating landscape, we

1:15:09

can be nostalgic for the past, like oh,

1:15:11

I just.

1:15:12

Wanted to meet somebody in my in my

1:15:14

neighborhood or at a party or casually. We

1:15:16

have these stories that we want

1:15:19

to come true, and they

1:15:21

might come true, but they might not. The

1:15:24

entire dating world has

1:15:26

shifted.

1:15:27

The way we do everything in our lives

1:15:29

has shifted, and we communicate online and

1:15:31

we connect online. So we

1:15:34

need to embrace that there are different

1:15:36

there's a different way to interact

1:15:39

in the new dating paradigm,

1:15:42

and the quicker that we do that and the clearer

1:15:44

we are about how we want to navigate

1:15:46

that, the happier we

1:15:48

are going to be in the relationships that

1:15:50

ultimately unfold short term or long term.

1:15:52

Wow, you just changed my perspective about online

1:15:54

dating. You sold me on it.

1:15:57

It's not doom and gloom like I kind of assumed it

1:15:59

was.

1:15:59

Yeah, it's just like we The change

1:16:01

that we need to administer to this thing that's never

1:16:04

going to go away is how we deal with it and how we interact

1:16:06

with it.

1:16:06

I totally agree sex

1:16:10

I want to talk about that.

1:16:11

Do you have like Patti Stanger very famously, it's

1:16:13

like, don't fuck on the first day, or she makes you wait,

1:16:16

I forget until you have an actual commitment like that

1:16:18

a person commitment to you, or she said you can't have

1:16:20

sex with the person. Do you do

1:16:22

any advising on that or how like conversational

1:16:24

tips or how to like you know, like

1:16:26

with sexual compatibility, sometimes you don't

1:16:29

know until you're actually having sex a lot of times.

1:16:31

But also there's ways that you can talk about sex and

1:16:33

about what you like at a certain time when it's appropriate.

1:16:36

And then my follow up question is like when is it appropriate?

1:16:38

I don't.

1:16:38

I don't know, Like I guess if you want to rip each other's

1:16:41

clothes off right away, maybe you should talk about what

1:16:43

you like and what you don't like.

1:16:46

Yeah, I don't have I'm

1:16:49

gonna say I don't have any hard or fast.

1:16:52

Sorry, but I don't. I don't

1:16:54

have any specific rules. I'm not

1:16:57

actually a big rules

1:16:59

dating coach. I like tools,

1:17:02

So I will say to my clients,

1:17:05

Look, there's a lot of consequences to having sex

1:17:07

today, like for real, for real, particularly

1:17:11

for women, and uh,

1:17:13

I'm not going to turn this into a political episode.

1:17:16

However, there are a lot of consequences

1:17:19

for women now. So if

1:17:21

you are feeling

1:17:24

all the vibes and you want to be intimate with

1:17:26

someone, but you're not at a point where you feel like

1:17:28

you could have any of those serious

1:17:30

conversations about the consequences

1:17:33

of having sex with that person,

1:17:35

then I would say you're probably not.

1:17:37

Ready to have sex with that person. Most people,

1:17:39

that's the whole for me.

1:17:41

Yeah, Like, if you can't have the tested

1:17:43

for STIs, what would you do if I got pregnant

1:17:46

and I didn't want the baby, Like I don't

1:17:48

fuck anybody until I know their starts an abortion where

1:17:50

I did want the baby.

1:17:51

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

1:17:54

Yeah, oh yeah, you're going to keep it in. They're like,

1:17:56

thank you very much any night.

1:17:58

But but we have to

1:18:01

be able to have those adult conversations.

1:18:04

And you can get caught up in

1:18:06

the vibes all you want, but the

1:18:08

reality is is that there

1:18:10

are some serious consequences

1:18:13

that we don't It's

1:18:15

not sexy to talk about it, but can

1:18:17

we make it sexy, like can

1:18:20

we talk can we normalize talking about

1:18:22

like being on prep or can we

1:18:24

normalize talking about like.

1:18:25

Do you know what's sexy though?

1:18:27

Is being comfortable about it? That's

1:18:29

sexy totally because.

1:18:31

I also people like and.

1:18:35

I was gonna say also like in terms of asking for consent

1:18:37

too, like you could totally ask for sexy

1:18:40

but go on, go on.

1:18:41

Well yeah, like I well, I the times that I've witnessed

1:18:44

people not be insecure about a thing

1:18:46

that I would be secure insecure about if

1:18:48

I were them, and then it's

1:18:51

like my potential insecurity over that thing just

1:18:53

vanishes, and I'm like, oh, all we need is an example

1:18:55

of like someone to like if someone starts

1:18:57

off the conversation and they're like, hey, you

1:18:59

know, sexual health is really important to me, and I wanted

1:19:01

to ask one was the last time you were tested? Just

1:19:03

like it's not a fucking big deal. Then it's

1:19:06

like, not only are you comfortable, but that's

1:19:08

so hot. When somebody can

1:19:10

treat an uncomfortable conversation with

1:19:12

ease is so so.

1:19:14

So so sexy.

1:19:15

Yeah, well, I mean you do it for like a big broad

1:19:17

thing too, Like I love when an unattractive guy

1:19:20

is just like I'm ugly and I don't care

1:19:22

like saying something that broad incredible

1:19:26

I'll take my clothes off right now.

1:19:29

Such a smart strike.

1:19:31

It's all all of his chicks.

1:19:33

Yeah melean in, baby,

1:19:35

I love it.

1:19:39

Yeah.

1:19:39

Yeah.

1:19:39

The more authentic we can be, and the more

1:19:42

the more the

1:19:45

more we can be brave

1:19:48

about asking for what we want

1:19:50

or asking the

1:19:53

right questions, the important questions,

1:19:55

and just being unapologetically

1:19:58

who we are. I think the more

1:20:00

connected we're going to feel bravery

1:20:03

hot.

1:20:04

Okay, I think one of the last things I wanted

1:20:06

to cover with you is is bias

1:20:09

in dating when it comes to you

1:20:11

know, race, class, gender.

1:20:14

Uh.

1:20:14

And you said that you challenge readers people,

1:20:17

you know, readers of your book to interrogate their

1:20:19

race, class, and gender biases. And I also

1:20:21

want to add in their like eight,

1:20:24

I guess ablest like you know, because every now

1:20:26

and then it's like, you know, people writing like

1:20:28

how do I reveal that I'm in a wheelchair?

1:20:30

And I'm like, I don't know how I'm I don't even know

1:20:32

the answer to this.

1:20:33

So what are your thoughts on interrograting

1:20:36

your own biases when it comes to

1:20:38

dating.

1:20:40

I'm realizing that word interrogate sounds very

1:20:42

aggressive.

1:20:43

Nog I

1:20:45

don't think of it that way. But I love the word interrogate

1:20:47

because that is it's like brass tacks like this is

1:20:49

if this means a lot to you, fucking

1:20:52

make sure that you're cool with what you are

1:20:54

putting out there and what you value. Interrogating

1:20:56

yourself is great. Intarrogeting other people on a

1:20:58

date not great. Yeahargeting self fine.

1:21:00

Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Yeah.

1:21:02

And it's actually kind of came up before I

1:21:05

wrote the book. I in

1:21:07

June of twenty twenty. I don't know if you remember

1:21:09

that time.

1:21:10

Yeah, I have a memory.

1:21:11

And in no world or in the United

1:21:14

States particularly, but

1:21:16

there was a lot of talk about race. And

1:21:19

one of my matchmaker friends,

1:21:21

you know, we're all we all collaborate with one

1:21:23

another and you

1:21:26

know, share kind of best

1:21:28

practices, and she asked in this

1:21:31

matchmaker group that I'm part of, she was like, wait,

1:21:34

is it racist if my client

1:21:36

won't date a particular race, if

1:21:39

they say that that's your preference? And

1:21:41

I was shocked at the number of people

1:21:44

in my community, the dating and

1:21:46

love coach community, that were like, yeah, it's.

1:21:48

Just their dating preference.

1:21:49

And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait,

1:21:51

we you could not do that like in

1:21:54

your neighborhood. At work, it'd

1:21:56

be like, no, no, no, it's just it's just my

1:21:59

preference to work with people of

1:22:01

my same race.

1:22:02

This is my preference.

1:22:03

And then I said, why do we get to have

1:22:06

a pass for dating,

1:22:10

which is extremely important?

1:22:12

Yeah, right when

1:22:14

we.

1:22:15

You know, we we we have to

1:22:17

be in interrogating

1:22:20

our biases in

1:22:22

all of these other areas. So I

1:22:24

spoke up and I was like, I think

1:22:26

it's actually kind of the definition of

1:22:29

racial bias actually, if you look it up

1:22:31

in the dictionary to discriminating

1:22:34

its I'm based on the color of their skin. So

1:22:37

I did some videos about it. My editor at the Washington

1:22:39

Post I was working on the date Lab column. I did that

1:22:41

for four years, and she

1:22:44

was like, can you write a date Lab piece

1:22:46

about this? Usually date Lab is a matchmaking column where

1:22:48

it's like, you know, we partner people

1:22:50

up and just he said, she said, they said,

1:22:53

anybody said, but this one.

1:22:55

She really, my editor really wanted to dive

1:22:57

into how I walk people through

1:23:00

that because I don't. I don't let my clients

1:23:02

just be like, oh I just just check just check

1:23:04

one, you know, or just unchecked

1:23:07

that other one.

1:23:08

So I take people.

1:23:09

Through the the

1:23:12

old technique of the five whys to

1:23:15

get to the root of well, why

1:23:18

why why

1:23:20

do you want to uncheck the box for black? Well,

1:23:22

I've just never dated a black guy before. Well, well

1:23:24

why, well I never met

1:23:26

anyone? Well why I just

1:23:29

always lived in areas. And then we we start unpacking

1:23:31

that.

1:23:31

Yeh.

1:23:32

And whether it's race or class or you

1:23:34

know, I had to hang up on education. We

1:23:38

all have our own thoughts

1:23:40

about what that stands for or

1:23:42

what that what that means, like,

1:23:45

oh, if they're this race, religion,

1:23:47

culture, that means a whole set of values,

1:23:50

beliefs. That means that we

1:23:52

would move through the world in this way together.

1:23:54

It's we paint a whole picture

1:23:56

that may or may not exist. And I

1:23:58

come from a very diverse background.

1:24:01

I come from a Black and Jewish background, and

1:24:04

my stepmother is Mexican American.

1:24:06

My sister in law is Indian American like mine.

1:24:09

My Thanksgiving table looks like

1:24:11

the un and I love that that

1:24:14

My life is enhanced because I

1:24:16

am able to sort of peer

1:24:18

into the worlds of other people and I

1:24:21

can love and be loved by people who

1:24:23

are different than me. And that

1:24:25

is something that I think dating can serve

1:24:27

a purpose for because if you

1:24:29

are you are seeking

1:24:32

connection love, and

1:24:35

you can do that, you

1:24:38

can sort of interrogate your

1:24:40

own.

1:24:40

Beliefs around this through dating.

1:24:43

It's actually a really it's

1:24:46

a much more.

1:24:48

It's a more interesting way

1:24:50

to have that dialogue with yourself

1:24:53

than you know, reading a bunch of

1:24:55

books on racial bias

1:24:58

or class bias or whatever.

1:24:59

You know, it's like live it,

1:25:01

experience it.

1:25:02

Yeah, and that bias.

1:25:03

Would you also would you or would you not include

1:25:06

like something like political views, because I know

1:25:08

that can be really polarizing.

1:25:09

And in dating, and I

1:25:12

am really.

1:25:13

Open to dating people with different political

1:25:15

views, and most people

1:25:17

aren't. It's to the point where they actually got

1:25:19

mad at me for doing it as

1:25:21

well. So and there's

1:25:24

been articles that I'm about this too, and like

1:25:26

the New York Post for about me specifically.

1:25:28

Yes, oh really, yeah,

1:25:31

Oh I'm gonna go look that up.

1:25:33

I wrote it an article actually about

1:25:35

it in Washington Post because that's in

1:25:38

DC.

1:25:38

It's it's all politics.

1:25:40

But I have seen in

1:25:42

the time that I've been coaching, I have seen

1:25:44

politics go from maybe the sixth

1:25:47

or seventh most important thing that people are looking

1:25:49

for alignment on to number one

1:25:51

or two. They're like, oh, no, I got to get this out of the way, Like did

1:25:53

this person vote for Trump? I need to know right now.

1:25:55

Sure, And I

1:25:58

think it's a little bit dangerous to use any of

1:26:00

these things as a proxy for understanding

1:26:03

someone's goals and values completely. But

1:26:06

I'm also I want to make sure I'm being

1:26:08

clear, Like I'm not saying everybody

1:26:11

the next generation, everybody needs to look like me. I'm

1:26:13

not saying like everybody needs to be an interracial

1:26:15

relationship. What I'm saying is,

1:26:18

can you use dating as an exploration

1:26:21

and can you challenge some of these beliefs

1:26:23

and these stories that may be deeply

1:26:25

ingrained from your family, from your community,

1:26:27

from the stories you've seen and read, and

1:26:30

just see what's out there now. If

1:26:32

a client comes to me and says, look,

1:26:35

I used to write for Jade eight as well. If

1:26:37

a client comes to me and says, Demona,

1:26:41

my parents want

1:26:43

me to marry someone Jewish, and I want

1:26:46

to marry someone Jewish, that is the most

1:26:48

important because I have

1:26:50

to raise quote Jewish kids. Ei,

1:26:53

there's a whole there's a whole conversation. We

1:26:55

can get into the passing of the but

1:26:58

We'll say that for another time. If

1:27:00

they say to me that is the most important

1:27:02

thing, I'm not going to say, well, then you should

1:27:04

just date a black guy just to piss off your I'd

1:27:08

say that, but I'm but

1:27:10

I'm going to say, Okay, let's unpack

1:27:12

where those beliefs come from.

1:27:15

Is that really your belief Is

1:27:17

that really how you feel? Or

1:27:20

that is that something that's that's

1:27:22

maybe.

1:27:23

Not your stuff to carry?

1:27:25

And what would happen if you just were

1:27:28

open, if you just went through the

1:27:30

exploration in the dating process. It's

1:27:33

not a marriage, it's just the dating process.

1:27:36

But I

1:27:38

see that happening now also with

1:27:41

politics, and especially with politics,

1:27:43

it's so much more subtle and

1:27:45

layered, and I think we

1:27:48

should be engaging in some of these conversations,

1:27:50

but from the perspective of listening,

1:27:53

not trying to convince someone change someone's

1:27:55

mind. Curious,

1:27:59

Yeah, for the cure we all stand from the learning,

1:28:01

like just getting

1:28:03

to understand another person's point of view

1:28:05

and perspective, because God knows that on social media

1:28:08

we're not hearing it.

1:28:09

You know, the news.

1:28:11

You to be able to consume news that would give

1:28:13

us those alternative points of view that doesn't exist,

1:28:15

so we might as well do it on tender instead.

1:28:18

Yeah.

1:28:18

Wow, this has been a fantastic conversation.

1:28:20

Thank you so much. So where can we find you?

1:28:22

And where your book comes out? January second?

1:28:25

Right? Is that correction? So

1:28:28

excited January second? Thank

1:28:31

you. Yeah.

1:28:31

So it's in bookstores everywhere, audiobook,

1:28:34

ebook, and hardcover. You

1:28:37

can also find out more about it at Fthfairytale

1:28:39

book dot com. That's just the letter f and

1:28:44

I'm at Demona Hoffman on

1:28:46

All the Socials and I do the Dates and Maids podcast

1:28:48

every Tuesday for eleven years

1:28:50

like clockwork.

1:28:51

So amazing.

1:28:51

Thank you for having me, absolutely, thanks for being

1:28:54

here.

1:28:55

This has been Guys We Fucked, the anti slot

1:28:57

shaming podcast. We'll talk to you next Friday.

1:29:03

Guys We Fucked is presented by Luminary,

1:29:06

Created and.

1:29:06

Hosted by Karin Fisher and Christina Hutchinson.

1:29:09

Editing and music coordination by Mike

1:29:11

Coscarelli. Theme song by Rob Patterson

1:29:14

and Jake.

1:29:14

Cosen Stuck my wet ass pussy.

1:29:17

Christina sends a cut up before, but now it's in. Yeah,

1:29:20

let's keep it good.

1:29:26

Now.

1:29:27

If you want, how you away?

1:29:28

Just actually what you've gotta

1:29:31

talk to the chef. You

1:29:33

gotta build you and beg

1:29:36

you is strong. Yeah, we allege

1:29:39

it will.

1:29:39

Be

1:29:40

getting

1:29:45

conditioning

1:29:48

sw.

1:29:50

Yeah we get those.

1:29:52

To the sea shoes.

1:29:54

Okay, quite simple.

1:29:56

I'd better explain just why a ry

1:29:59

on the it's gonna be trained. Because if you wait

1:30:02

for the boss to reach your faith,

1:30:04

yeah, I will all be away.

1:30:06

So the judgement dick yet be

1:30:09

buried.

1:30:11

The bod to the heaven.

1:30:15

And don't say.

1:30:18

Your boss. Now

1:30:22

you know you're under peanut.

1:30:23

Boss said you wait be

1:30:26

of the work to you're about the faith.

1:30:28

You'll be down now, but

1:30:31

you ain't me. You can pass

1:30:33

out the leaflet a call.

1:30:34

Of me and you can talk it over.

1:30:39

And speak your mind.

1:30:42

And said do

1:30:45

something about it.

1:30:49

You've got a unions now and

1:30:51

you're sitting pretty put some

1:30:53

looking kids on the steering committee.

1:30:56

The boss will listen one

1:30:58

guy's walk but yeah he god

1:31:00

listen when they you get.

1:31:02

Up, So they're gonna.

1:31:04

Be it's

1:31:06

gonna be.

1:31:07

So lonely.

1:31:09

When I got.

1:31:12

To walk up.

1:31:16

So what's the working?

1:31:17

You so hard?

1:31:18

It's just outrageous.

1:31:20

And now they're paid.

1:31:21

If you starvation wages, you

1:31:24

step up to the boss and the boss

1:31:26

would you

1:31:26

Out before I raise your pay i'll

1:31:28

be a help