0:13

Crystal Fincher: Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm Crystal Fincher, and I'm a political consultant and your host.

0:18

On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight

0:22

into local politics and policy in Washington state through the lens of those

0:26

doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on what's happening, why it's

0:30

happening, and what you can do about it. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions

0:34

of our Friday week-in-review show and our Tuesday topical show

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delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review

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wherever you listen to Hacks & Wonks. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always

0:48

available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes.

0:52

Today, we'll be speaking with a candidate for Attorney General.

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But before we begin that conversation, let's talk about what the

0:59

Washington State Attorney General's Office does and why it matters.

1:04

The Attorney General's Office, sometimes referred to as the AGO, is a large

1:08

operation - serving as the largest public law office in Washington with over 1,800

1:13

employees, including nearly 800 attorneys.

1:16

They have offices in 13 cities across the state, ensuring that every corner of

1:21

Washington has access to their services.

1:23

One of the most significant aspects of the Attorney General's Office

1:27

is its role in serving roughly 200 state agencies, boards, commissions,

1:31

colleges and universities, as well as the governor and legislature.

1:35

This means that the office provides legal guidance and representation to virtually

1:40

every part of our state government, ensuring that our laws are upheld and

1:44

our institutions are running smoothly. So what does the AGO do?

1:48

We can break it down in five main areas.

1:51

One, representing the state. The AGO's office represents the state in all cases involving

1:57

Washington's interests, whether it's before the Supreme Court, the

2:00

Court of Appeals, or trial courts. They also defend state officers or employees who are ethically acting

2:06

in their official capacities. Number two, protecting public safety.

2:12

The office pursues the civil commitment of sexually violent offenders,

2:15

keeping them out of communities until they no longer pose a threat.

2:19

They also investigate and prosecute crimes at the request of the

2:22

governor or county prosecutors.

2:25

Number three, enforcing consumer protection.

2:29

The Attorney General's office is responsible for upholding the Consumer

2:33

Protection Act and enforcing laws against anti-competitive business practices.

2:38

This means they are constantly working to protect Washingtonians from fraud,

2:42

scams, and unfair business practices.

2:45

Number four, advising government officials.

2:49

The office advises the governor, members of the legislature, and other state

2:53

officers on legal issues, providing expert guidance to keep our government running

2:57

smoothly and in compliance with the law.

3:00

And finally, fifth, representing the public interest.

3:04

In utility matters, the Attorney General's Office represents the public interest,

3:08

ensuring that the needs of Washingtonians are being met and that their utilities

3:12

are operating fairly and efficiently.

3:15

Those are the ways the Attorney General's Office works to protect

3:19

and serve the people of Washington. With its vast network of offices and attorneys, the office has

3:25

unparalleled ability to impact the lives of Washingtonians

3:28

in every corner of the state. To understand what this looks like in practice, we can look to a few

3:33

announcements from the AG's Office over the past two weeks, including:

3:38

Attorney General Bob Ferguson won a court order in his consumer

3:41

protection lawsuit against Labor Law Poster Service to stop the repeat

3:46

scammer from contacting and accepting payments from Washington businesses.

3:51

Attorney General Ferguson announced a $47.5 million settlement with

3:56

Kroger to compensate the state for their role in the opioid epidemic.

4:00

The resolution brings the Washington AGO's total recoveries directed to

4:04

opioid abatement funding to more than $1.29 billion going to state, county,

4:10

and city governments, with multiple ongoing and active cases against

4:15

other drug companies still pending. And also, A.G.

4:18

Ferguson filed 30 felony animal cruelty charges against a Sequim woman, stemming

4:23

from the discovery of hundreds of dogs, turkeys, pheasants, goats, and

4:27

more on the woman's property that were living in unsanitary conditions

4:31

without access to food or fresh water.

4:35

So as voters and residents, it's crucial that we understand the

4:38

importance of this office and the role it plays in our daily lives.

4:42

The Attorney General's Office is meant to be our ultimate advocate as

4:45

Washington state residents fighting for our rights and interests.

4:49

Throughout the upcoming conversation and as we head into the next

4:53

election, keep these responsibilities in mind as you consider who you

4:57

want leading this critical office. Today, I'm pleased to welcome State Senator Manka Dhingra, who is a

5:04

candidate running for Attorney General and is the Deputy Majority Leader

5:08

of the Washington State Senate. She brings two decades of experience as a prosecutor and behavioral health

5:14

expert to her role as Chair of the Senate Law and Justice Committee.

5:18

Thanks for joining us, Senator Dhingra. So starting off, why are you running for Attorney General and what sets

5:25

you apart from the other candidates? Senator Manka Dhingra: The reason I'm running for Attorney General is because

5:31

- I actually started my legal career at the Attorney General's office when I was

5:34

in law school - for two years, I worked in the Sexually Violent Predator Unit.

5:39

And when I graduated law school, I had the option of continuing

5:43

at this office or going to the King County Prosecutor's Office.

5:46

And my then-boss recommended that I go to the prosecutor's office because

5:50

I would gain invaluable experience.

5:53

So I'll just start by saying it is an office that I have known for

5:57

a very, very long time - I know a lot of the people that work there,

5:59

I know the work that they do. They have incredible talent at that office.

6:04

And I ran for office in 2017 because we had just had a national election

6:10

where an individual who boasts about sexually assaulting women, who makes

6:15

fun of individuals with mental health issues and disabilities, and one who has

6:20

such hateful rhetoric came into office.

6:23

And I ran because my life's work was about working on gender-based violence,

6:29

working on mental health issues, and working to address hate crimes.

6:33

And now with Bob Ferguson going to the governor's office, this is a very natural

6:37

next step for me - because all the issues I care about are front and center.

6:42

When we talk about gender-based violence, when we talk about addressing hate

6:45

crimes, when we take a look at access to health care - these are all the issues

6:50

I've been working on my entire life.

6:53

And I have a track record of fighting hard elections and winning, I have

6:58

a reputation for working on tough problems and developing solutions.

7:02

And that's why I'm running - to really make sure that I am an attorney

7:06

general for all Washingtonians - no matter what you look like, how you

7:10

identify, or where you come from. And not just simply for the adults, but also for the children of Washington.

7:16

And I think there are two ways in which I think me and my opponent are different.

7:21

One, I would say, is I want to do the job of the Attorney General

7:25

because I want to be Attorney General. I want to make sure this office steps up and does work

7:30

for the people of Washington. This is not simply a stepping stone for me for higher office.

7:35

This is an office I'm really passionate about and I have long ties to.

7:39

This other thing that sets us apart is I have a track record of delivering results.

7:45

I have always stood up and fought the hard fights.

7:48

And I think my work, especially as a senator in the last

7:51

seven years, shows that. I have been honored to have received awards from the regional NAACP and

7:58

American Psychiatric Association. I've even been Legislator of the Year from Washington Police Chiefs and Sheriffs.

8:05

So it is this record of delivering on hard work that sets me apart.

8:12

Crystal Fincher: One thing that we are struggling with, both nationally

8:16

and here in Washington state, is gun violence in all of its forms.

8:21

What strategies would you employ to address gun violence in our state?

8:26

Senator Manka Dhingra: You know, you're talking about an issue that's so dear to my heart.

8:29

I have been working on gun crimes since I was a prosecutor in King County.

8:34

But even prior to that, I actually started an organization called Chaya

8:38

- it's now called API Chaya - they help survivors of domestic violence,

8:42

sexual assault, and trafficking. And I'm just going to share a story on why I do so much work around gun violence.

8:47

One of the very first clients we had at Chaya - and I did the articles of

8:51

incorporation founding the organization and I was the first advocate - and

8:55

this woman told me that she had suffered years and years of abuse.

8:59

And very early on in the marriage, her husband had taken his gun, put

9:03

it in her mouth, and said - I can pull the trigger anytime I want.

9:09

And after that, anytime he needed her to do what he wanted her to do, he would just

9:16

point to the closet where the gun was.

9:19

The presence of that gun enabled him to control her.

9:23

So the work that I have done in the Senate in the last seven years has been

9:27

about making sure we are addressing coercive control, we are addressing

9:32

individuals who are a danger to themselves or others - that they don't

9:35

have a right to possess a firearm. We have to make sure we're closing loopholes on surrender of firearms.

9:42

And as AG, I will be having specialized assistant attorney generals who are

9:47

working on gun crimes on really making sure that the incredible laws that we have

9:52

passed in the last seven years - that I've played a central role in each and every

9:55

one of them - are actually being enforced.

9:58

We were the only state, I believe a couple of years ago, that

10:01

saw a 1% decline in suicides.

10:05

And I firmly believe that is because we have laws that remove

10:10

guns from individuals who are referred for civil commitment.

10:13

Because the number one way in which people commit suicide is through guns.

10:17

And if you remove guns for six months - when someone has been referred for civil

10:22

commitment - you are taking away that tool that enables them to take their life.

10:27

So I have been a huge proponent of addressing gun violence.

10:31

And it's not simply after the fact - I actually had the legislation that created

10:35

the first in the nation statewide Office of Firearm Safety and Violence Prevention.

10:40

And the reason why it was important for me to create that office is

10:44

because I had started doing work in King County around data collection

10:48

and gun violence in our communities. And through this office, we take a look at data everywhere that

10:54

gun crime is occurring, and then take a look at communities in

10:57

which gun violence is occurring and develop intervention programs.

11:01

Because you can't just address gun violence after it happens - you really

11:03

have to try to figure out how you can intervene and prevent future gun violence.

11:08

And what the public health experts will tell you is that gun violence

11:11

is very similar to cigarettes. If you grew up in a family where people smoke, you're more likely to smoke.

11:18

If you grow up in a family or around people who use guns, you are

11:22

more likely to be a victim of gun violence or the perpetrator for it.

11:25

So we really have to be smart about addressing gun violence in our state.

11:31

Crystal Fincher: Another challenge that we are dealing with both

11:33

nationwide and as a state is substance use disorder and drug trafficking.

11:40

How would you address those in our state?

11:44

Senator Manka Dhingra: Thank you. That is - especially with the fentanyl crisis - it is so front and center

11:49

with the number of people we are literally losing to this crisis.

11:53

And I'll just start off by saying that fentanyl is such a different beast

11:56

than any other drug we have dealt with, so we have to really rethink what

12:01

we're doing in terms of treatment and intervention - because it's so deadly.

12:05

You don't have someone who's been using fentanyl for 10 years or 12 years,

12:09

like you did with cocaine and heroin. People are just dying.

12:12

So I think there are two components. One is handling the dealers and the other is the individuals who need help.

12:19

In addressing the supply - this is where we have to make sure we're working with

12:22

our federal partners, with local law enforcement on cross-jurisdictional

12:27

issues, and really doing these task forces that can go in and interrupt the supply.

12:32

We cannot do that without federal partners.

12:34

This is also when a AG can be the convening body and provide the

12:38

resources to run these task forces to help, but really it's the U.S.

12:42

Attorney that I'm hoping will step in and do a lot of this work.

12:45

In terms of addressing the users, we have to make sure we have strategies

12:50

at every level of the spectrum. You've got to make sure you're doing prevention work.

12:53

You've got to make sure you have early intervention work.

12:56

You have to make sure that you have access to treatment on

12:59

demand - no saying we don't have an opening, come back in three months.

13:04

You've got to utilize civil commitment and involuntary treatment - I know

13:07

people don't like that, no one does - but you've got to escalate on

13:11

the level of care that you're doing. I created and ran the therapeutic court unit at the prosecutor's office.

13:18

And there's a role for a mental health court and drug

13:20

courts to play in this arena. I also think there's a role that if someone has been convicted of crime

13:27

- that they have access to treatment. Because you have to make sure that when people enter our criminal

13:33

justice system, they get access to the resources to improve their lives so

13:37

they're not going back into the cycle of homelessness, addiction, and crime.

13:42

And so working on ensuring whether they're in jail or Department of

13:45

Corrections, they have access to the treatment they need to recover.

13:50

And then you've got to invest in recovery services - because once

13:54

people are clean, you got to make sure they can continue to stay clean.

13:58

And I have led on a lot of this work in the legislature.

14:01

And as attorney general, I will be making sure that we're partnering

14:05

with our agencies, with the governor's office, with the legislature to

14:08

continue to do this work to make sure we are addressing supply, but also

14:12

addressing the individuals who are struggling with substance use disorder.

14:17

Crystal Fincher: Some of what you talked about there was going to address the

14:20

root causes of substance use disorder.

14:23

I'm wondering, taking a broad view, how would you look to address the root

14:28

causes of crime and how will you handle the tension that exists sometimes

14:35

between investing in root causes versus investing in responses to crime?

14:41

Senator Manka Dhingra: I think this is something we have to do hand in hand.

14:43

It has to go hand in hand because everyone has a right to feel safe.

14:47

I think people who engage in bad conduct have to be held accountable.

14:52

But you have to then talk about what does accountability look like?

14:55

And accountability looks different for different people.

14:58

And this is where, when you're talking about accountability, you have to

15:01

say - Why did someone commit the crime that they're accused of doing?

15:05

What are the factors that led them to do that? And how can we address those factors?

15:09

When we take a look at the criminal justice system, our concept of

15:14

giving everyone jail time or prison time - that's not the answer.

15:18

You really got to understand risk-needs-responsivity tools - I've

15:22

done a lot of work with the Center for Court Innovation, I've done a lot of work

15:26

around risk-needs-responsivity tools - and we just got to be smarter about crime.

15:31

And we know how to be smarter about crime - you have to invest in it, but

15:35

you got to have conversations about it.

15:37

But the bottom line is we can make our society feel safe, and we can

15:42

hold people accountable, and we can do it in a way that is humane,

15:46

meaningful, and sustainable.

15:49

That's why our therapeutic courts are so reliable and have been doing so well.

15:55

We're doing a lot more work in restorative justice, and that is absolutely something

16:00

we need to be doing more and more of.

16:02

And I can tell you, when I have some conversations with my Republican

16:06

colleagues and not everyone understands what restorative justice practices

16:09

are, and I tell them, I say - Think about 30, 40 years ago, when you

16:13

had a teenager who misbehaved. What would people do?

16:17

Many times family members or community members would get a hold of that kid,

16:21

take them to the store maybe where they stole something or the neighbor's house

16:25

that they may have damaged, and they have a conversation and they tell that kid to

16:30

either fix the damage they created, do community service, repent in a certain way

16:35

- but they address that behavior together - that's restorative justice practices.

16:40

And what has happened now - that instead of the community and the neighborhood

16:44

and the families stepping in and taking care of it, they call the cops.

16:48

And so we have to go back to those practices where we understand it

16:52

takes a village to raise our children.

16:55

And we all have to play a role in it. And that's the way it used to happen.

17:00

And we need to go back to that - where we are taking responsibility for the youth

17:04

in our neighborhoods, in our communities, and standing up and saying - Yes, we

17:08

have a role to play in making sure that they are doing the right things.

17:14

And we can provide them the guidance, the mentorship, and the

17:17

resources to do the right thing. Crystal Fincher: Now, a lot of times when we do have public conversations

17:24

about crime, we mostly focus on the perpetrators and not the

17:29

victims or the survivors of crime.

17:33

What can we do to better support victims and survivors?

17:38

Senator Manka Dhingra: I'm so glad you asked this question because given

17:41

all the work I've done in gender-based violence, I talk a lot about survivors.

17:44

And I also talk about the fact that survivors are unique and different.

17:48

People like to lump them in one category or the other, and

17:51

that is not who survivors are. I talk a lot about - when people experience trauma, that trauma many times

18:01

lends itself as a reaction in their life.

18:04

It's not just a memory. So you have people who have experienced trauma in their life who actually get

18:08

involved in the criminal justice system. And so we actually have perpetrators of violence who are survivors of trauma.

18:15

And so when you talk about survivors and victims, this is not a one-size-fits-all.

18:21

We don't have this concept of a perfect survivor who's done nothing wrong in

18:25

her life and simply has been a victim - those are myths that don't really exist.

18:30

So we really have to make sure that in our system, we are providing survivors

18:35

the resources they need to recover.

18:38

We're providing them a framework where they can feel heard - that

18:41

what they want is taken into account.

18:44

And many people just assume that - oh, the prosecutors represent the victims.

18:49

That is not true. The prosecutors represent the state.

18:53

And many times the victim's voice and what she - and I'm going to say

18:57

she very, very deliberately because the vast majority of victims of crime

19:01

do tend to be women - women want.

19:04

And then we also have to divide up what we're talking about

19:06

- gender-based violence is a different beast than property crimes.

19:10

And so you really have to, again, make sure you have a individualized

19:14

process for handling these individuals.

19:17

But for survivors of crime, there's a lot more our society has to do

19:21

to make them feel seen and heard.

19:25

For cases like domestic violence, sexual assault, trafficking - those

19:29

are still crimes that we do not do a good job in making survivors feel safe.

19:36

A lot of the work that I've done in the legislature and with the

19:38

Attorney General's Office, I mentioned - starting with the Sexually Violent

19:42

Predator Unit when I was still in law school - is around ensuring we

19:46

have trauma-informed, evidence-based practices to help survivors of violence.

19:52

Crystal Fincher: How do you feel about victim compensation, particularly

19:56

for hate crimes, but for all of them? And what strategies would you use to make sure that adequate

20:02

resources are available? Senator Manka Dhingra: This is a struggle that we have in the legislature all the

20:08

time - is how do we fund victim services?

20:10

Victims have to be made whole. That is really the whole concept behind our legal system - it is

20:16

about making people feel whole. Now, the way people think about it is in a very monetary way.

20:25

They think about if your car has been damaged, how do we fix your car?

20:29

That might work in a car situation.

20:32

It's very different when you talk about a domestic violence situation

20:35

or a sexual assault situation. That's just not the monetary damages you're out.

20:41

That is the emotional pain you have felt that you may need therapy for for years.

20:45

That may mean that you actually need some job counseling because your

20:50

work has suddenly decided you're not performing at the level you're

20:53

used to because of your trauma. So making victims feel whole, making survivors feel whole - again, it's very

20:59

different depending on the type of crime you're talking about, but the state

21:03

does have to step in to do that work. We now are the first state - and hopefully more will follow - we actually

21:10

pay for the forensic examination for survivors of strangulation.

21:15

We pay as a state to do the forensic examination for a sexual assault kit.

21:20

That's how it starts - is from the very beginning - making sure you're not

21:24

billing a survivor of rape or domestic violence for doing a forensic examination

21:30

to see the level of strangulation and damage she has on her throat.

21:34

It starts from there, but it has to go all the way until we can provide therapy and

21:39

get that individual back on their feet. So we have a long ways to go.

21:43

I will tell you, I'm very proud of the work we have done in the last couple

21:46

of years where we have created a task force to take a look at survivor

21:49

services in the state of Washington. And really take a comprehensive look at what are the different buckets

21:55

of funding we have as a state for survivors, and how we can more fully

22:00

address how we need to compensate survivors for the hurt that they have

22:05

gone through and how to make them whole. Crystal Fincher: I want to talk about police reform.

22:12

We've certainly seen a number of incidences where police themselves and

22:17

their communities have said actions of particular officers and certain events

22:23

have not met their standards, have gone against the values of their community.

22:28

And yet we've seen that not been met with any kind of accountability - too often.

22:34

Where do you stand on police reform and what specific measures would you advocate

22:39

for from the Attorney General's office?

22:41

Senator Manka Dhingra: Thank you, Crystal, for this question. I have led on police reform measures in the Senate for the last seven years.

22:47

As a King County prosecutor, I actually helped create the 40-hour

22:50

crisis intervention training at the Criminal Justice Training Commission

22:54

and trained law enforcement in crisis intervention for a decade.

22:58

This is the time when Sue Rahr became director of the CJTC, and the

23:02

conversations and the culture was really about how do we change that culture

23:06

from needing warriors on our street into having guardians of our community.

23:12

And that is a culture where you have to start off with.

23:15

I have been an agent of change my entire life - from starting Chaya to

23:19

the Therapeutic Courts Unit and the work I've done in the Senate - and

23:23

that's the culture I'm going to bring to the Attorney General's office.

23:26

I love quoting superheroes - I do think they're amazing - in

23:29

Spider-Man, they say with great power comes great responsibility.

23:33

And we as a state have determined that our law enforcement officers

23:37

are given the power to take a life.

23:39

And with that power has to come greater responsibility and greater accountability.

23:45

I know so many law enforcement officers, and so many of them want to do the

23:49

right thing - they want to hold their colleagues to the right standards.

23:53

And so we have to change that culture where it is very acceptable - in fact,

23:57

appreciated - when officers stand up for the right thing and speak out.

24:04

So we have been building that culture. We have to continue to do that.

24:07

And I think we really have to double down on where we're hiring officers from,

24:12

the training that they're receiving, and enabling them to do their work correctly.

24:17

I'm very proud to have prime sponsored the bill on duty to intervene and

24:22

duty to report, where we have to make sure law enforcement has a

24:26

responsibility to intervene when they see wrongdoings occurring - they have

24:30

a duty to report that wrongdoing.

24:33

And we have to make sure, like we now do in the state of Washington, that

24:36

we have a decertification process along with the certification process

24:40

that we have for law enforcement. That when there are misdeeds - that they don't simply go away because someone

24:46

chooses to resign and move to another jurisdiction, but they stay because

24:52

we have a decertification process. So these are a lot of the measures that we have put into place.

24:57

I'm very proud of the setup that the Office of Independent Investigation

25:01

has been doing, and I'm very excited to see what that office does.

25:06

And I know we've got to have an Office of Independent Prosecution in the state,

25:09

and we're working towards doing that. But as Attorney General, I bring all of this experience with me

25:15

to address police accountability. Crystal Fincher: Would you support that Office of Independent Prosecutor

25:21

within the Attorney General's office? Senator Manka Dhingra: Absolutely.

25:25

Crystal Fincher: What role do you believe the Attorney General should

25:28

play in environmental protection, and how would you decide when and how

25:32

to intervene in environmental cases? Senator Manka Dhingra: So, Crystal, I don't talk a lot about this, but I

25:37

will share with you that I was actually born in Bhopal, India - that is the

25:41

site of the Union Carbide gas tragedy.

25:44

And my father actually worked at the Union Carbide plant.

25:47

And I remember, as a young child, waking up in the middle of the night

25:52

because he had to go to the plant because there were problems there.

25:56

And I remember he would constantly complain about safety violations

26:00

and he was not taken seriously. So he ended up resigning.

26:04

And a few years after that, he actually got colon cancer

26:09

and died at the age of 40. His parents lived to be in their 90s, so it was not genetic.

26:15

And my mother, a young widow at the age of 33, moved to this

26:20

country with my brother and I. And so the fact that I'm running for attorney general in this

26:24

country, given my life journey, is actually surreal to me at times.

26:28

But I tell you this story to say that environmental protection

26:31

is very, very important to me. We cannot have our children drinking water that has lead in it, with PFAS in it.

26:38

We need clean water. We need clean air.

26:40

We have to take a look at cancer clusters.

26:43

And this is where the Attorney General's office can play a much larger role.

26:46

I'm really proud that Bob Ferguson has set up a department to take

26:49

a look at environmental issues, but we've got to make sure we're

26:53

enforcing them so that we do have clean water, that we have clean air.

26:57

If you take a look at the health issues that our young children

27:00

are dealing with - the level of asthma, the level of allergies

27:05

- that's all environmental related. And you will find me as an environmental champion who is really making

27:12

sure that we're holding polluters accountable because we need a planet

27:16

that the next generation can live on.

27:19

Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. I also want to talk about workers' rights.

27:24

How would you protect workers' rights, particularly in cases

27:27

of wage theft, safety, and ensuring the right to unionize?

27:32

Senator Manka Dhingra: I am a huge union supporter. I was actually part of the Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Association, so

27:39

I've been a very proud union member. And I'll tell you, I'm the only candidate in this race that has

27:43

100% voting record with unions. I just want to say one thing before I dive into these issues - I fundamentally

27:49

believe that the inequities we're seeing in our society today is because

27:54

we've seen a decline in unions, and they have played such a critical

27:58

role in ensuring that there's equity.

28:00

And this is why we need to ensure that we are supporting the unions, that we are

28:05

ensuring they have a right to unionize, we are ensuring that there is no wage theft.

28:12

This is so fundamental because the only thing that we can never

28:17

get back in our life is our time. And if we are using our time to work, we have to make sure we get paid for it.

28:25

Because to me, that is the ultimate theft - because you are taking something away

28:30

that you can never, ever get back in life. I will always be a champion for workers' rights - really making sure that we

28:37

are holding bad actors accountable. When I talked about accountability in the criminal justice system, I talk about

28:42

accountability throughout the system. And this is where, again, what accountability looks like has to

28:47

matter - for our corporations, it cannot be business as usual.

28:52

You cannot simply violate the law and think it's okay to

28:56

pay a small fine and be done. Accountability in this regard means that you have to make it painful so that you

29:04

change behaviors - so they're not going to engage in wage theft, they're not going to

29:08

engage in having unsafe working conditions - because it is painful for them to do so.

29:14

And this is where the monetary issue comes in when we're talking about

29:17

our economy - because that is about monetary ramifications - so we have

29:22

to make sure that our penalties are such that they change behaviors.

29:29

Crystal Fincher: How do you view your role as a consumer advocate for the

29:33

residents of Washington, and what actions would you take to protect residents from

29:37

unfair or deceptive business practices?

29:40

Senator Manka Dhingra: The manner in which all of us are targeted for fraud is getting more and more sophisticated, especially the manner

29:46

in which our elderly are targeted. And I can tell you, people with last names that sound like mine are

29:51

targeted in different ways as well. One of the things the AG's office really needs to do more of is

29:57

actually go out into the community and do education and outreach.

30:01

Most people have no idea what their rights are, or the role the Attorney

30:05

General's office can play in helping them.

30:08

And we have to have that relationship with the community so that they

30:11

understand what their rights are and how to leverage government.

30:15

Unfortunately, Bob's been so super busy dealing with Trump and the federal

30:19

government - and he's been doing a lot of great work in consumer protection,

30:22

but we have to build on that work and really take it to the next level

30:25

by doing that community engagement.

30:28

And I'll tell you, before Bob, if you asked anyone - What

30:31

does the AG's office do? - people would not be able to tell you.

30:34

And so we got to build on that momentum and really tell people and

30:38

educate them about the options for the role of the Attorney General - and

30:44

so we have to make sure we do that. I'm very proud to have worked on My Health, My Data - that was the privacy

30:50

bill in the state of Washington. Lots of people have been trying to work on a lot of privacy bills and they

30:55

haven't gotten through, but this one did. And so I am someone who will always be taking a look at data privacy, taking

31:02

a look at how information is sold. And frankly, I think we need to do a lot more in protecting our personal

31:07

identifying information, like Europe does.

31:10

You will find me as an AG who is an activist in this arena.

31:14

I do think given the number of technology companies we have, we need to be

31:18

leaders in ensuring that Washington and America are leading in this

31:23

arena, not just the European Union.

31:26

Crystal Fincher: I want to talk a little bit more about that because

31:30

the role of data and surveillance, both from a commercial and law

31:35

enforcement perspective, is increasing in our daily lives.

31:39

How should we approach the evaluation and usefulness of tools that use

31:43

data versus the implication on our privacy and civil liberties?

31:49

Senator Manka Dhingra: This is something we're going to continue to struggle with for quite a while now, because as you mentioned, this

31:54

is becoming more and more pervasive. First, I want to divide up government surveillance versus

32:00

corporation surveillance. Because right now, the amount of data companies have is frankly unlimited.

32:07

When you take a look at the number of Ring doorbells, you take a look

32:10

at our phones - most people I don't think pay attention to the permissions

32:14

they are granting on their phones. We have to have digital literacy so people understand how to turn

32:20

on and off the different options and how to control their data.

32:24

We have to make sure that's easier. I will also tell you that there are some benefits to technology.

32:29

I have seen how, in the developmental disabilities community, it has

32:33

enabled people to do amazing things and participate in our economy

32:38

and in our community in ways that were not possible earlier.

32:41

There are these apps that actually can tell people when they are at risk of

32:46

reusing substances because they can see their activity level, they can see.

32:51

what they're browsing, they can see their mood based on

32:55

how they're listening to music. And so they can send them an alert saying - Hey, you need to go to a

32:59

meeting because you look like you might be at risk of using, relapsing.

33:04

There are apps that actually can tell individuals that they are

33:08

starting their cycle of depression because of what's happening.

33:12

Those are good things, but they should be apps that people have given the permission

33:18

on, they understand what data they're collecting and how they're using it.

33:22

We get into problems when we don't fully understand the data that's being

33:26

collected, and how it's being used, and how people are selling their information.

33:30

This is where the personal identifying information - and how we categorize it

33:35

and how we use it - comes into play.

33:37

I think people should own their data.

33:40

And right now in America, they don't - the companies do.

33:42

So we have to make that shift where people own their own data.

33:47

Now, in terms of law enforcement, this is where I think we can have a lot of rules

33:50

and regulations around it that are easier to enforce than - with the companies, it

33:55

gets a lot trickier and this is why we need to make sure people own their data.

33:59

With law enforcement, again, I think there are ways in which it

34:03

can be useful and ways in which it can be extremely detrimental.

34:07

I struggle greatly when it comes to technology in law enforcement.

34:12

I have seen eyewitness identification not work.

34:16

This is where, when you have individuals from different ethnic backgrounds,

34:20

there's a huge problem in them identifying the right perpetrator.

34:24

Now, would technology be able to help in that?

34:27

I actually think it might, because if they caught someone on camera, I'll trust

34:30

that over a person identifying someone.

34:33

So I do think there are risks and benefits.

34:36

I do worry when that data is allowed to be used by law enforcement without a warrant.

34:43

I don't think people should just be able to browse cameras and other things without

34:47

a legitimate need for looking at it.

34:50

And so this is an area where I think we have to continue

34:53

to be very, very vigilant. I know speed cameras are now being installed everywhere, and I really wanted

34:58

to make sure that those footage is not going to be used for nefarious purposes.

35:04

So we're going to continue to have to see what we do in this country.

35:09

Other countries - the level of surveillance has increased dramatically

35:13

- and I think there are a lot of lessons that we can learn from them as well.

35:17

Crystal Fincher: I'm also wondering, in terms of AI - which everybody's talking

35:21

about, certainly now - and whether it's algorithms or AI in new application - you

35:27

talked about identification using tools where they don't know who the person is

35:33

on video, but they're trying to use AI to match that to pictures of people in

35:39

different databases and using biometrics.

35:41

Or, buying commercially available information to assist in investigations.

35:49

Do you think that more regulation should be put there?

35:52

Do you think that the uses of that that we're seeing right now are fine?

35:56

Where do you stand on that? Senator Manka Dhingra: Oh, I think we absolutely need

35:59

more regulation around that. So my husband - we've been married for twenty, gosh, seven years - when I met

36:06

him nearly 30 years ago, he was building and racing robots using AI technology.

36:12

That was 30 years ago - he still does that.

36:16

But AI is here to stay. Organic computing, all the stuff - what the public knows is actually

36:23

behind where the researchers are, so we're here to stay.

36:28

Now we have to make sure that there is regulation, absolutely, because

36:33

AI technology is only as good as the users who are inputting the data.

36:37

And so you have to take a look at who is developing this, what are they relying on

36:42

when they're coming to their conclusions? I can tell you as a Sikh woman, my husband was a turban and has

36:49

his full beard - AI technology in identifying him does not work.

36:53

You know which other racial category doesn't work on?

36:56

Black women. So we have to fully acknowledge and understand that AI technology is

37:02

not race neutral and that it has the biases of the people who programmed it.

37:07

So absolutely it needs regulation.

37:09

It also needs people who understand what is going on and how it is developed

37:14

in order to do that regulation. We need people who have a background in technology or are comfortable talking

37:19

about technology to do this work.

37:21

I often joke and say my husband thinks he's a lawyer because

37:24

we've been married for 28 years. I think I'm an engineer because I've been married for 28 years.

37:28

But there is - when you're familiar with the technology, when you're familiar

37:31

with people who are doing that work, you are more ready to dive into that.

37:35

And I am someone as Attorney General who will be diving into the manner in

37:40

which we're using technology, especially AI - the purposes for it, and frankly,

37:44

in the manner in which it is developed. Crystal Fincher: Now, in the office - it's not talked about a lot, but one

37:49

of the roles that you have is going to be as a manager, you're going to be

37:54

running that office with a full staff.

37:58

What experience do you have managing people and what will your

38:01

approach to running the office be?

38:04

Senator Manka Dhingra: Oh, I love that question so much. It's very easy to come into an office that's already

38:08

well-functioning and run it. In my life, I have actually created systems and I've created HR departments

38:16

- and that is what I will bring to this job. I mentioned starting API Chaya and running it.

38:22

Setting up that entire office, setting up protocols, procedures, all of that - that

38:27

takes a lot of thought on the culture you want to create, how you want to

38:31

treat employees, what's the relationship between managers and employees.

38:35

I have done a lot of that - for that organization, I did that for NAMI Eastside

38:40

when we transitioned from the first executive director to becoming a much

38:45

more professionalized organization, I've done donor development work, strategic

38:50

planning for other organizations. I created and ran the Therapeutic Alternative Unit

38:54

at the prosecutor's office. During the recession, I had to go out there and write grants to try to

39:00

get money to keep that unit afloat.

39:02

And then when I came into the Senate, I realized we did not have an HR office.

39:07

We did not have a code of conduct.

39:10

And this is all the partisan staff, the nonpartisan staff, leg tech, all of that.

39:17

I chaired our Facilities and Operations Committee.

39:20

Now in the Senate, we have an HR office, we have a DEI coordinator,

39:24

we have roles and responsibilities, we have a code of conduct.

39:27

We have a process where employees have a role to play in their

39:32

job description, in promotions.

39:35

They have a role to play in hiring individuals.

39:38

And so I have helped set all of that up.

39:41

So the management experience I bring to this job is not simply coming in

39:45

and running an organization that's already well run, but really taking and

39:50

developing systems and creating space so that the employees feel valued.

39:55

I believe in trusting your employees.

39:58

I think when you empower people to step up and take accountability

40:03

for their work area, they will step up and do exactly that.

40:06

People leave jobs because of culture and managers, not because they hate

40:13

their job - most of the time, some people actually hate their jobs.

40:16

But you have to create that culture where people feel valued, they feel

40:20

seen, they feel heard, and they have the agency to make the changes that

40:26

improve their work-life balance. That is what I have done for over 25 years, and those are the

40:31

skills I will bring to managing the Attorney General's office.

40:36

Crystal Fincher: Now, as we are about to conclude this conversation

40:39

- obviously, I've asked a number of questions, but sometimes there are

40:42

things that you know or that you're passionate about that you see that

40:46

just aren't on other people's radar. So what important issue or issues do you think that the public isn't

40:52

generally aware of, but that you feel is critical to address as attorney general?

40:58

Senator Manka Dhingra: One of the things that is critical to address is

41:00

actually the role the Attorney General's office has in the advice they're giving

41:05

agencies on how to implement laws.

41:08

Over and over again, we see legislation that is passed that

41:11

looks amazing, but the implementation doesn't just go quite right.

41:15

I do think the AG's office has a role to play in it.

41:18

I want to make sure we empower assistant attorney generals to have a relationship

41:22

with their clients, with their agencies - in order to actually have government

41:26

show up in the manner in which people now expect government to show up.

41:30

Things have changed. We expect more of government.

41:33

I've done a lot of work around the Poverty Reduction Task Force, done a

41:36

lot of work in gender-based violence. Things have changed.

41:40

When we take a look at our universities, and if their first response is to

41:44

protect the perpetrator, my question always is - Why do you think it's

41:47

your job to protect bad actors?

41:51

And as assistant attorney generals, we have to make sure that we're not just

41:55

worried about agency liability - that we are playing a role in getting

42:00

agencies, in getting the people of Washington the right results.

42:04

I think it's been an extremely long time since we've had an attorney general

42:07

who has come from the legislature, who has that trust and experience

42:11

with legislators, who has a great relationship with our next governor

42:14

- I'm assuming it's going to be Bob. And I think there is a very unique role for me to play, given these relationships

42:21

and my experience, in really changing the dial on how Department of Social and

42:27

Health Services shows up to do their job, in being a partner in how Department of

42:30

Corrections is doing its job, in really being a problem solver when it comes to

42:34

Department of Youth and Social Services. And I'm really excited about that and really being a partner and

42:41

empowering our assistant attorney generals to be partners in solving

42:45

problems, not just giving liability protection advice to their clients.

42:50

So I know that's a little bit in the weeds, but I think there's a

42:53

lot more we can do in that for how government is showing up for people.

42:57

Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. And your point is well taken.

43:00

The implementation of laws is as important as the passage of it

43:04

and has proven to be challenging sometimes, so very important issue.

43:08

Appreciate you for raising it and appreciate you taking the time to

43:12

join us for this conversation today.

43:14

Thank you so much. Senator Manka Dhingra: Thank you so much, Crystal.

43:16

It's always a pleasure. Crystal Fincher: Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks, which

43:21

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43:49

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