0:00

Hello! I'm fun cotton and

0:02

this is happy place. The show

0:05

that questions what we've been told

0:07

about what happiness looks like. Today

0:10

I'm chatting to Emma to bury.

0:12

I think it's something that is

0:14

subconscious often but I feel that

0:17

judgmental gay that judgment that I

0:19

projected onto other people. I was

0:22

also being very very self critical.

0:24

That kind of I guess judgment

0:26

that I had of other is

0:29

was reflecting the level of. Self

0:31

criticism that I had about

0:33

myself and the impossibly high

0:35

beauty standards that striving for

0:37

and elusive and never achievable

0:39

perfection the I was constantly

0:41

feeling I had to achieve.

0:43

The external was reflecting the

0:46

internal. Emma is an activist

0:48

and broadcaster who spent over

0:50

a decade as a teaching

0:52

fellow at So Us, the

0:54

School of Oriental and African

0:56

Studies University of London. She's

0:58

written bestselling books including Don't

1:00

Touch My. Hair and her latest

1:02

one is called Disobedient Bodies which

1:05

a such a powerful title. Reading

1:07

this book really made me think

1:09

even more deeply uncritically about a

1:12

completely on it's hey nibble beauty

1:14

ideals we know we're surrounded by

1:16

in western culture. This chat with

1:19

Emma was so eye opening. We

1:21

talked about aging, about weights, about

1:24

race, about why when we judge

1:26

ourselves less, we judge each other,

1:28

less to and vice versa. But.

1:31

We also talked about how we

1:33

can critique Beauty Coach Shot while

1:35

still allowing for the real magic

1:37

of self expression and a dorm

1:39

and an arts because those things

1:42

are incredibly important for our identities

1:44

to this chart is a real

1:46

treat. Tired

1:50

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listening on Amazon Music is included with

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your Prime membership. Just head

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to amazon.com/adfreecomedy to catch up

2:01

on the latest episodes without

2:03

the ads. Emma,

2:35

it's so nice to meet you in the flesh.

2:38

Yes, it's lovely to meet you as well.

2:40

Yeah. Having followed you on Instagram and we

2:42

were on a Zoom once together for the

2:45

Pass the Mic initiative. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

2:47

Yeah. And, but this is our first time meeting

2:50

so I'm really, and I love reading your books

2:52

as well. So it's great to be able to

2:54

look into your eyes and have a proper meaty

2:56

chat. So I'd love to get stuck into talking

2:59

about your latest book, Disobedient Bodies, which

3:02

just saying it out loud is a

3:04

very freeing statement. But

3:06

what does Disobedient Bodies mean to

3:08

you? How would you, how would

3:10

you summarize that? Yeah. So

3:12

I think for me, Disobedient Bodies

3:14

can be like many different things,

3:16

but I think primarily what

3:19

I am aiming for with

3:21

that, with that name, with

3:23

that title is

3:26

achieving a sense of

3:29

enjoyment and comfort

3:31

and confidence in the experience

3:33

of being embodied, of

3:36

having a body, actually being

3:38

able to enjoy having a

3:40

body rather than feeling like

3:42

it's something that you are

3:45

plagued with insecurity about, that

3:47

you are constantly policing and

3:50

worrying about the appearance of, that

3:52

you can actually just kind of

3:54

confidently inhabit your body and enjoy

3:56

it. Yes. I

4:00

mean, podcast done. That is. Yeah,

4:02

that's it. Because it's so

4:04

interesting, you know, the human

4:07

evolution has given us some exquisite opportunities. But

4:09

one of the things that is probably sort

4:12

of the pits of

4:15

human evolution is our

4:17

absolute obsession with the

4:20

exterior and our outward

4:22

facing aesthetic. We've become

4:25

so bloody obsessed

4:27

by it. Would you say we've reached

4:29

fever pitch? Is this the

4:31

worst it's been? I would say that we've

4:33

reached fever pitch. Yeah, I would say like

4:36

so in the book, I talk about like

4:38

kind of having like we've got beauty standards,

4:40

but like on speed. And

4:42

I think a lot of that

4:44

has to do or lies with

4:46

the level to which we inhabit

4:48

the digital realm and

4:50

where it's not it's these

4:53

representations, these visual representations of

4:56

ourselves or and of other people

4:58

that we're engaging with. So everything is,

5:00

you know, about like photographs and images

5:02

and representations of of

5:04

ourselves. And so

5:06

is to a far greater degree

5:09

based on the visual, based on our

5:11

physical appearance than things. So I talk

5:13

a lot about like growing up being

5:16

a teenager in the 90s and the

5:18

pressures that existed then,

5:20

but how those pressures still

5:22

very much exist, but feel

5:25

like really accelerated and feel

5:27

really turbocharged by the

5:29

fact that we inhabit this

5:31

digital visual landscape and

5:34

also this visual economy because it's

5:36

also that landscape is

5:38

also very much connected to how

5:40

kind of successful we are perceiving.

5:42

Yeah, it's been monetized. Yeah, completely.

5:45

Exactly. It's it's wild. I

5:47

loved your reference of Heather Schimelipstick in the

5:49

book because I'm very much of the same

5:51

era as you and Heather Schimelipstick

5:53

was the one and it was kind of it was

5:56

a strange car and it was very, very

5:58

shiny. Yeah. I don't know if it was same

6:00

in Ireland but we had to apply a

6:02

very dark brown lip liner and then Heather

6:04

Shimmer over the top. Yes, there was a

6:07

contrasting lip liner. That was by

6:09

the least. That was part of the

6:11

look. Apparently they've

6:14

just reissued Heather Shimmer. So apparently if

6:16

I could do it again. I don't

6:18

know. I don't know that I'd

6:20

do it again. I'd love to just, I'd love

6:22

to put some on and just see. Yeah, just

6:24

to see. And I posted a picture recently of

6:27

me at about 18 or 19. I

6:29

don't know that I'm wearing Heather Shimmer but

6:31

I've definitely got that

6:33

very two-tone lip liner and lipstick

6:35

effect going on. But it was actually so interesting

6:37

how much people were like, oh my God, that's

6:39

such an honor. Especially younger people. I

6:41

think people my age kind of looked at

6:44

it in one way but I think for younger people a

6:46

lot of people were like, oh my God, that's so iconic.

6:48

Yeah. I'm like, that's hilarious. Yeah, we

6:50

are now a throwback. That's where we're at. We're

6:53

vintage. We really are. We're seeing

6:55

things come back and it's absolutely terrifying.

6:57

I liked hearing you talk about that

6:59

era of your life. I

7:01

mean, again, the whole conversation is complex

7:03

around disobedient bodies and we'll hopefully touch on

7:05

all of it. But there's this

7:07

lovely side to growing up with

7:09

girlfriends and getting ready together and

7:11

putting your makeup on and the

7:13

sort of ritual side of things,

7:15

which again adds a whole other

7:17

layer because when we're having this

7:19

conversation and we're talking about beauty

7:21

standards or the pressure that women

7:23

particularly feel with applying makeup or

7:25

changing their appearance in any way,

7:28

we can't see the solution as been

7:30

the makeup bag. I'm never

7:33

doing anything like that ever again. I'm

7:35

not going to wear makeup, change my

7:37

hair, dress in a certain way. I

7:39

don't care about it because actually there's

7:41

real magic in the lovely side of

7:43

it. So the solution isn't just to

7:46

go be gone, all of it.

7:48

Yeah, absolutely. So one

7:50

of the things that I'm really trying to

7:53

do in the book is first of all

7:55

identify and then challenge this very binary way

7:57

we have of seeing the world. binary

8:00

lens itself to the way we've organized,

8:02

we see everything kind of through this

8:04

binary lens and that's how

8:06

we've organized reality and that, you know,

8:09

can be seen in everything from

8:12

man, woman, black, white, perfect,

8:14

flawed, gay, straight, beautiful, ugly.

8:16

Everything is kind of seen

8:18

through this binary lens and

8:20

I think that also lends

8:23

itself to this idea, this

8:26

kind of extreme idea of it being one or

8:28

the other when it comes to makeup and

8:31

that if you are critiquing

8:33

beauty culture in any way alongside

8:35

with that, it's a complete rejection

8:37

of it and that's very much

8:39

not, I'm trying to do like

8:41

the antithesis of that. So I

8:43

am, you know, putting beauty culture

8:45

under the microscope but I'm doing

8:47

it from the perspective of somebody

8:49

that like loves makeup and loves

8:51

dressing up and like loves adornment

8:54

and kind of loves all of those things.

8:56

So I think really

8:59

what I'm trying to do is

9:01

to tap into all

9:03

of the ways that those processes of

9:05

beautification can be joyful and

9:08

can be liberatory but at the same

9:10

time identifying the ways in which beauty

9:12

culture is also like, you know, oppressive

9:14

and tyrannical, trying to critique

9:18

that but trying to maintain

9:20

all of the, trying to

9:22

make it more about pleasure

9:24

than about pain. The interesting

9:26

thing is whatever way

9:29

you go with this conversation, say

9:31

you've really succumbed to the pressures

9:33

of the beauty standards that exist

9:36

and you're doing it maybe

9:38

not for yourself or maybe you're doing it for yourself

9:40

but you're flapping on the makeup or you've had Botox

9:42

or whatever it might be or the other

9:45

extreme end of the spectrum where you've

9:47

just ditched everything and you're not looking

9:49

at wearing makeup or doing anything with

9:52

your hair etc. either end are judged.

9:54

It's not like we're just judging people

9:56

who have ditched this system, we're judging

9:58

people who are have succumbed to

10:00

the pressures of it because I guess

10:03

the visual of a human is

10:05

our first experience of them, whether that's in real

10:07

life or an Instagram, but certainly in real life

10:09

before they've spoken, before we've got a feel of

10:11

what they're like energetically or we've understood who they

10:13

are as a person, we all do it. We

10:15

judge people. We go, oh, I've

10:18

got their number and it's none of

10:20

it's right. We need to get beneath

10:23

all of it, but we're just judging that. It

10:26

seems to make up such a large sum

10:28

of who we are still, certainly on

10:31

that first experience of meeting

10:33

someone. Yeah, absolutely. And it's

10:36

often so inaccurate and so

10:38

misleading, the assumptions that we

10:42

make about people based on these

10:45

really kind of like superficial

10:48

things are often just

10:50

very misleading. And we're also

10:52

taught that that tendency is

10:54

just, you know,

10:56

it's just kind of human nature and

10:58

it's just a universal norm that we

11:01

do judge things and we do judge

11:03

people on site and we make these

11:05

kind of like immediate assessments of them

11:07

based on their presentation

11:10

or on their possession

11:12

or lack of possession

11:14

of beauty. But

11:16

in my research, I talk about it in

11:19

Disobedient Bodies, but it's something that I had

11:21

kind of come across years ago. I think

11:23

when I was teaching African Studies at SOAS,

11:26

that that is actually something that can be

11:28

attributed to, it has a name and it's

11:30

ocular centricism. And it comes from a

11:35

tendency in Western culture to

11:38

obviously we have like many different

11:41

senses, but in Western culture historically,

11:43

there has been a tendency to

11:45

privilege the sense of sight for

11:48

all of the other senses. But that

11:50

is actually something quite specific to Western

11:53

culture and it's not

11:55

necessarily a universal norm.

11:57

So there Are many other cultures

11:59

that. That have privileged other senses

12:02

and as a result of that

12:04

would have less tendency to. Or.

12:07

Actually, wouldn't assume that they can

12:09

make a value judgement or has

12:11

some sort of in size or

12:13

intimate knowledge of a thing. Simply

12:15

or persons simply based on how

12:17

they look so isn't There is

12:19

actually quite culturally specific rather than

12:21

just a kind of human universal.

12:23

know I'm is so ingrained, it's

12:25

A and grains. We can't even

12:27

see that. we just assume it's

12:29

say, the gnome that you're making

12:31

some sort of sub conscious decision

12:34

about who this person a's from

12:36

looking at them. But I find

12:38

it helpful to know that it

12:40

is something that we. Even. A

12:42

kind of do the second nature. It

12:44

is something that we have been conditioned.

12:46

Yeah, it's so I find it really

12:49

helpful to know that there are there

12:51

are other. Ways. Of of

12:53

being and thinking thinking about things

12:55

people. In reality it's so that

12:57

knowledge, even though I haven't been

13:00

kind of like socialize in that

13:02

one of those kind of alternative

13:04

cultures. The I'm that I'm talking

13:06

about knowing that they have existed.

13:08

Knowing that these alternatives exist helps

13:10

me kind of like question myself

13:13

in ways that like I I

13:15

check myself, am I. So I

13:17

feel like I am so much

13:19

less judgmental about people's appearances, about

13:21

other people's. Appearances them I used

13:23

to be when I used to kind

13:26

of just uncritically. Reproduce.

13:28

What? I had been kind of condition to

13:31

do the I think that period of checking

13:33

myself has just lead to where I am

13:35

now, where it's actually just not. Something.

13:38

I do as immediately as I used

13:40

to do think that come in tandem

13:42

with you. Not judging yourself. Absolutely.

13:46

Definitely am I feel

13:48

that. I. Didn't know this at

13:50

the time am I think it's something

13:52

that his. Subconscious. Often,

13:55

but I feel that judgmental

13:57

gays that judge meant that

14:00

I am projected onto other

14:02

people's I was also being

14:04

very very self critical and

14:06

that was. That kind

14:09

of I guess judgment that I

14:11

had of others was reflecting the

14:13

level of self criticism that I

14:15

had about myself and the impossibly

14:18

high beauty standards that striving for.

14:20

And elusive, a never achievable perfect sense.

14:22

The I was. Constantly feeling I

14:24

had to achieve. yeah I will. It

14:26

was like pretended the external was we're

14:29

fixing the internal Yeah what? what were

14:31

your experience is growing up in Island?

14:33

What did you believe about your own

14:35

body in a we grew up in

14:38

the same decades we would have had

14:40

very different experiences from certain reasons but

14:42

there were beauty standards that we all

14:44

saw when it was magazines for us

14:47

as care and magazines were weird. let

14:49

you look for ninety and my things

14:51

as I see how was I love.

14:53

To read this stasio, it's questionable

14:55

stuff and the imagery was all

14:57

in a sore thumb. Organized. What?

14:59

What was your experience growing up

15:02

and what did you believe about

15:04

your own bodies? Yeah, so I

15:06

grew up where the dominance. Moment.

15:08

As the dominant beauty sounded it felt

15:10

like the only that the busey sounded

15:12

you know kind of exclusively was. I

15:15

think the most important thing was to

15:17

be. Very. Thin. As thin

15:19

as as was physically possible.

15:21

So I guess the ideal

15:23

would be to be very

15:25

very very thin to be

15:27

tool, to be blondes, to

15:29

have long hair. Blue.

15:32

Eyes the definitely a bonus. I right in

15:34

the book about the way there was no

15:36

fact that was permitted. Anywhere on the bodies

15:38

apart from your boobs they were the only place

15:40

where are very the only part of your body

15:43

that could be. That could be big

15:45

so that was a be decided that

15:47

i feel every but that everybody was

15:49

kind of strat to to varying degrees

15:51

you know striving to achieve and it

15:54

was. oppressive in many ways

15:56

for for for everyone and i feel

15:58

like even even for people, even for

16:00

the few people that maybe naturally had

16:03

all of those features, they were

16:06

not... Earlier you

16:08

were saying that if there's somebody

16:10

that is perceived as making too

16:12

much effort, they're pilloried. But if

16:14

there's somebody who's seen as not

16:17

making enough effort, they're also you

16:19

know, often vilified. Yeah, I've

16:21

got the exact language that you write for

16:23

that bit where I've stuck in the page,

16:25

hold tight. So you're either labeled

16:27

frigid or a slut. Yeah,

16:30

binary. Oh,

16:33

yeah. So my point

16:35

is that there's no

16:37

winners in this. It

16:40

was like, irrespective of how you

16:42

behaved, irrespective of how you looked,

16:44

you were still doing something wrong.

16:46

That's not to say it wasn't

16:48

better for some people that or

16:50

wasn't it wasn't maybe easier for

16:52

some people than it was for

16:54

others. But I feel like even

16:56

for people who were pole position,

16:58

there was still an ordinate pressure

17:01

and the forces of patriarchy working,

17:03

working upon them as well. So

17:05

my point is that there's kind of

17:07

no winners in this game. But for

17:09

me personally, there was also the added pressure

17:11

of racism. So I was growing up in

17:14

an environment where there were virtually there was

17:18

virtually no difference. And certainly there

17:20

were very, very few other black

17:22

people or people of African descent.

17:25

So the type of femininity that

17:27

was expected of us that we

17:29

were kind of very much like

17:32

encouraged to perform was one where

17:34

you were as diminutive,

17:37

you were as tiny

17:39

and as frail as

17:42

possible. So there was this constant

17:44

pressure to just be very small.

17:46

And so I was in that

17:48

environment as well. And I have

17:50

all of these features that I

17:53

was just constantly told, you know,

17:55

we're too big. So Like

17:57

everything from my hair to my lip.

18:00

It the size of my

18:02

mouth, my body shapes and

18:04

let the size of my

18:06

bomb. Everything about me was

18:08

to was too big I

18:10

was told was too big

18:12

and so I was just

18:14

very very very like self

18:16

conscious of my body and

18:18

I think the pressure to

18:21

be. Very. Sin

18:23

was enhanced by.

18:25

Also what was going on in

18:27

terms of in terms of race

18:30

and you know wanting to am.

18:33

Not. Wanting to stand out any

18:35

more than I already did if that

18:37

makes sense for the beauty standards are

18:39

still incredibly year I centric can either.

18:42

I learned a hell of a lot

18:44

from reading your book stuff that I've

18:46

never read before. A guy. I

18:49

think he pronounces a piece of

18:51

pie. Some pizza comes las yes

18:53

he does hamper a haze. Popularization

18:55

of the facial angle him rain

18:57

seeds of summary of exact angles

19:00

the he called beauty This stuff

19:02

is this is not new stuff

19:04

that is Oh shit there's been

19:06

really pumped into the system and

19:08

we just stuck with and I

19:10

think is. Is. Amazing

19:13

that we can have these conversations now and

19:15

I was is going on. Can we just

19:17

have put this all out on the table,

19:19

have a look at what we really truly

19:22

believe what we just been told and be

19:24

sticking. Say that of course when you a

19:26

teenager and you're growing up on there is

19:28

the pressure and the magazines and you'll pay

19:31

grade. Most of us fit into that category

19:33

of following say and the consequent bodies that

19:35

talking about weight and it's a really tricky

19:37

subject to talk about, but it's really important

19:40

one for lots of different reasons, you know,

19:42

I know that you had a period

19:44

of the disordered eating. Because of these

19:46

pressures I'd an eating disorder about ten

19:49

years is highly compounded by thought that

19:51

was on Tv i young age and

19:53

Eve But this imagery of your cells

19:55

coming back to you and the discomfort

19:58

of thoughts that it was really interesting

20:00

read the drain your points or less

20:02

and again. Conclusion: The I hadn't landed

20:04

on which is. The.

20:07

Source feeling is that sin

20:09

as equals will power and

20:11

actually it's female. obedience is

20:14

what's really going on here.

20:16

Yeah, I up through all

20:18

of the crazy roller coasters

20:20

I've been with. My body.

20:23

I'd. Never landed on. That's the it.

20:25

We see other people that are say

20:27

and or in magazines on T V

20:30

and we assume they've got more will

20:32

power than else and that's what creates

20:34

this level of self loathing and I'm

20:36

not good. Now him, I'm not doing

20:38

enough. I'd never landed on that puzzle.

20:40

Really nice. Oh well, I hope you

20:42

find it helpful. My name is liberating

20:44

because I think actually I was still

20:47

and support me stuck in cook at

20:49

all people that I just more disciplined

20:51

and will powered or whatever that was

20:53

still. Yeah, so rummaging around in my

20:55

subconscious that was still there and I

20:57

think actually looking at it being sea

21:00

Malibu media is a very different feeling.

21:02

A mom which you can click clearly

21:04

rejects very easy like Ny Date Sun

21:06

see. A absorbs. Abiding

21:09

to those rules like frame. Oh

21:11

yeah and this is where the

21:13

disobedience becomes Indiana and can be

21:15

can be liberal tory to reject

21:17

that process. but what you're saying

21:19

about that kind of like self

21:21

loathing and that idea of like

21:23

willpower and like discipline around the

21:25

body is really crucial as well

21:27

as again to go back to

21:29

the binaries am and are kind

21:31

of binary view of the world

21:33

that we have am so there

21:35

is like very long standing deep

21:37

sea says. Kind of tradition

21:39

in western philosophy that basically

21:41

will gain back to places

21:43

that. Separates. The

21:45

Body and Mind sissies.

21:47

The Body and the

21:49

mind as almost two

21:51

warring oppositional entities and

21:53

within the binaries that.

21:56

That. we have an organized reality according

21:58

to there's always a high where

22:00

between the two, one is seen as superior and

22:03

the other inferior. And

22:07

in that mind-body split, the mind

22:09

is seen as superior, the body

22:11

is seen as inferior. The

22:14

mind is seen as the

22:16

seat of intellect

22:18

and rationality and

22:20

has been historically gendered male. The

22:23

body has been historically gendered

22:26

female and is the opposite

22:28

of rationality and intellect. And

22:31

there's very much a sense that

22:33

the mind has to kind

22:36

of control and discipline

22:39

the body and subject

22:41

the body to, have

22:44

to exert this willpower and

22:46

control over the body.

22:49

And again, remembering that the body

22:51

has been historically gendered as female.

22:55

So we have, and within that

22:57

there is this kind of idea

22:59

of almost, this is a long tradition

23:01

of almost like scorn for the

23:03

body, the body being kind of held in

23:05

contempt. So we have

23:08

been kind of, these ideas are

23:10

very far-reaching in our culture. So

23:13

we've kind of been conditioned for

23:16

millennia to have

23:18

this really uncomfortable

23:21

relationship with our

23:23

bodies. When that meets

23:25

with kind of like

23:27

beauty culture, when that meets with

23:30

kind of advertising, when that meets

23:32

with the form of late-stage

23:35

capitalism that we currently live

23:37

under, that has kind

23:39

of encoded into its DNA this

23:42

notion of constant improvement. We always

23:44

have to be constantly, constantly improving.

23:46

We can always be better. We

23:48

can always be working harder. We've

23:51

already been kind of primed to

23:54

think that our bodies are not good enough. When

23:57

that kind of meets with those

23:59

narratives of politics. constant improvement and

24:02

constant productivity. It's a

24:04

very fertile ground for

24:06

these deep seated

24:09

insecurities about our bodies to

24:11

really flourish. And

24:14

so we shouldn't be surprised

24:16

that we are so vulnerable

24:18

to these narratives that our

24:20

bodies aren't good enough and this

24:22

sense of self-loathing that

24:24

many of us have or have had about

24:27

our bodies. I'm sure most people listening to

24:29

this either feel like that about their bodies

24:31

or certainly have in the past in teen

24:33

years or later down the line and slipped

24:37

into self-punishment. And we can do

24:39

that in so many ways. There's

24:41

obvious ways like over-exercising or not

24:43

eating the right kind of diet that's

24:45

going to nurture your body

24:48

and your mind. But I think

24:50

there are subtler ways that I'm

24:52

probably less privy to. How else

24:54

might we be punishing ourselves without

24:57

really realising? It's interesting because obviously

25:00

exercise and diet are things

25:03

that are really healthy and

25:05

are things that can be

25:07

really like obviously contribute very

25:09

much to well-being. But I

25:12

think what we

25:14

have to be mindful of or maybe like even vigilant

25:16

about is what our motivating

25:18

energy is, what

25:22

our intentions are and what our feelings

25:25

about ourselves are. I was

25:27

writing something recently about the

25:29

kind of the diet culture again

25:31

of the 90s and how things

25:34

like Slim Fast and Rice,

25:40

it's mon... Drink this and

25:42

have this sugary cereal bar and eat nothing

25:44

else all day. I

25:47

saw someone online on

25:49

Instagram recently talking about like the

25:51

special K diet. Special K bars

25:54

and cereal, yeah. And

25:56

like that stuff is just like

25:58

so processed. that bar had

26:00

some, you know those bars with that kind of like

26:02

fake sugary, you know, like on

26:06

top like what on earth is that

26:08

feeling to your inside? You will never

26:10

shit again. You will never shit again.

26:12

But like, yeah, you can just kind

26:15

of feel the congestion. And

26:17

I actually did, I had really

26:20

like, like serious like digestive

26:22

issues that's probably not unconnected to

26:24

those kind of like, I'm fad

26:26

diets. But like, yeah, my, my

26:28

concern in those days was in

26:30

no way about kind of health or well

26:33

being it was just about calorie restricted and

26:35

look being as thin as as thin as

26:37

possible. So I think when we're thinking about

26:39

diet and exercise, are

26:41

we kind of focused more on

26:43

our health and well being? Or

26:46

are we more focused on trying to

26:48

achieve a certain

26:52

type of potentially not very healthy

26:54

body type? Yeah, and feeling. I

26:56

mean, we all know how if

26:58

we're feeding ourselves appropriately,

27:01

and fueling

27:03

ourselves, we're going to mentally feel better. And all

27:05

of us want to feel better. There's no one

27:07

else out there who wants to feel worse. We've

27:10

got to do it for body and mind. We've got to

27:13

eat properly rather than punish ourselves

27:15

expecting that getting to a

27:17

certain minimal weight will then make us

27:19

happy. We can't because we're mentally out

27:21

of balance. The whole thing is

27:23

totally flawed. And you say

27:26

there's so many interesting points again about this flawed

27:28

system that we're in and we're still in it.

27:30

It's not you know, there's been a redeeply in

27:32

it. You know,

27:34

the interesting thing is, certainly with social

27:36

media, there's been this

27:38

influx of a body positivity

27:40

movement, which is a lovely thing. And I

27:43

think it's definitely helped me it's

27:45

helped lots of people out there seeing advocates

27:47

for looking after yourself and letting your

27:49

body be naturally as it is and

27:52

not going to self loathing and punishment,

27:54

etc. Yet simultaneously,

27:56

we're under more pressure than

27:58

ever, which doesn't correlate. We're

28:00

under more pressure than ever, even though we've

28:02

got this amazing new movement that's

28:05

there. What's going on? Yeah. So I

28:07

find that paradox, you know, kind of

28:09

like fascinating. And it's something that I

28:12

think about in the book,

28:14

this conversation around like, I

28:16

guess, representation and inclusion. And

28:19

I know, like, when I think about

28:21

being a teenager and like,

28:23

so I'm, I guess, like relatively

28:26

kind of naturally like quite

28:29

slim person, not

28:31

that I thought I was when I was

28:33

growing up, like I thought I was huge.

28:35

But I have a different body shape to

28:37

lots of my peers in that like, I

28:39

didn't have a gap in my size, my

28:42

size, or a certain, my size, or a

28:44

certain shape, and there's no gap, they meet.

28:46

But I never saw anybody that had a

28:48

body like that. Now I look at, you

28:51

know, there's lots of women I can

28:53

think of that now are in the

28:55

public eye, they're held up as being

28:57

beautiful, that have a similar body shape

28:59

to my own. And that certainly would

29:01

have been helpful for me in normalizing

29:03

how I felt about myself. Yet

29:06

at the same time, if representation

29:08

were the solution to this, if

29:10

we think about people that have

29:12

been historically well represented, so if

29:14

we just take a kind of

29:16

like, prototype of like a slim

29:19

white woman with straight hair, who's been,

29:21

you know, kind of well represented

29:23

historically, if representation were the

29:25

solution to this, with a panacea to

29:28

this, anybody that fits

29:30

that criteria would then feel

29:32

great about themselves. And that

29:34

is absolutely not the case.

29:36

Because even though people are

29:39

being represented, they're still being represented

29:41

in a way that

29:43

is often objectifying. And

29:46

we are not engaging

29:48

with, we're not really

29:50

grappling with this very

29:52

complicated relationship that we

29:54

have with bodies in our culture, all

29:56

we're doing is saying, oh, let's add

29:58

more bodies. into the mix. So

30:02

while that is in

30:05

certain ways helpful, it doesn't go far enough, it

30:08

doesn't go deeply enough in actually

30:10

grappling with where these ideas, where

30:12

these complicated ideas about the body

30:15

come from and how we might

30:17

overcome them. It's kind of just expanding

30:20

the existing problematic framework rather than trying

30:22

to kind of create a new paradigm,

30:24

which is what I think we need

30:27

to do. So if inclusion isn't the

30:29

answer, how do we fix a broken

30:31

system? So I think for

30:34

me, what I have found really

30:37

helpful, and I found writing

30:39

the book personally really helpful

30:41

in kind of like my

30:43

journey to feeling more

30:46

just comfortable in my

30:48

own body, which

30:50

is really, you know,

30:52

that should be really uncontroversial. That

30:54

should be really ordinary

30:57

for us to feel comfortable in our own

30:59

bodies. It's the least ordinary thing. It's

31:01

the least ordinary thing. Right? Which

31:03

is like actually not. So

31:06

I think knowing,

31:09

just kind of knowing some of the history,

31:12

knowing the kind of ways

31:14

that we've been like conditioned

31:16

to have these ideas and

31:18

attitudes about our bodies, knowing

31:20

that alternative ways exist or

31:22

have existed, that this isn't

31:24

kind of like preordained, that

31:26

we do have, there are

31:29

options, there are choices. I

31:31

feel like that in and

31:33

of itself is, that

31:35

doesn't solve where we are at

31:37

currently, but I think it opens

31:39

up spaces where we

31:41

can like, yeah, address a lot

31:43

of these issues, I hope. Tired

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32:07

have ads. I

32:10

mean, we're of a similar age and we're

32:12

also not allowed to age, by the way.

32:14

That is the messaging that I'm hearing a

32:17

lot and I'm happily rejecting it. I actually

32:19

feel for the struggles that I've had with

32:21

my physical body that I'm happy to say

32:23

I'm in a very good place

32:25

with how I think about my body in my 40s

32:28

and I'm the happiest I've been in my skin. But

32:30

with the aging thing, I don't

32:32

feel any resistance to aging at all.

32:34

Even though I know the messaging's there,

32:37

for some reason I don't feel

32:40

called to keep myself looking

32:42

15. I'm

32:44

happy to go with it and see what

32:46

happens and I know that's not the case

32:48

for everybody and then I think I

32:51

put a post out on Instagram not long ago

32:54

where I was talking about if I do this

32:56

with my forehead, I've got about a

32:58

thousand lines and if I smile, I

33:00

have creases around my eyes and

33:02

the lines that go from my nose to my

33:04

mouth as I'm getting older or accentuated. Yes, I

33:06

can hard relate to all of it. Yes, I'm

33:08

going with it. I'm like, of course, because I

33:11

move my face a lot and I talk and

33:13

I'm expressive and that's going to happen. I

33:15

didn't think it would get much of a

33:18

reaction but the amount of women that I

33:20

think actually felt relieved that I

33:22

was willing to show that my face moved

33:24

and has creases and crinkles and

33:27

they have felt deep shame and a lot

33:29

of them were saying I was literally

33:31

about to book to go and get Botox for the

33:33

first time or whatever and now I'm maybe

33:36

not completely deterred but thinking

33:38

about just pressing pause on that

33:40

idea for a bit. I'm not going to sit

33:42

here and sort of slag off anyone that's had

33:44

Botox or have any judgment because I think you've

33:46

got to do what works for you and makes

33:48

you happy but I don't

33:51

necessarily want to feel swayed or

33:53

feel like, I don't know, I could

33:55

end up like the only one in sort

33:58

of the whole of London that... haven't frozen

34:00

my face. I don't know, but I'm

34:02

sort of willing to go with that

34:04

one. But the pressure, I hadn't seen

34:06

it coming, but it's immense. It's immense

34:08

to not age. And it's

34:10

very female specific, that one. Yes, absolutely.

34:14

Absolutely. Yeah, it's something

34:16

that, yeah, I'm

34:18

starting in my forties. I'm

34:21

really, I am starting to think about,

34:23

I think similarly to what you were

34:26

just saying, I am not overly

34:29

concerned or even

34:32

like super aware

34:34

of all of those things that you described. Like,

34:36

I don't know what these lines are called. I need to

34:38

give them a name. Grinning

34:40

lines. Yeah, they probably have a name,

34:43

but I'm not aware of what it

34:45

is. But yeah, like, I'm aware that

34:48

they're there. And I assume that they

34:50

weren't 10 or 20 years ago. But

34:53

yeah, I don't I don't really

34:55

care. But then I also what I do find

34:57

actually a little stressful

35:01

is being so I'm

35:03

often told people often think I'm a lot

35:05

younger than I am. And when

35:08

people find out my age, they

35:10

are often shocked. But

35:13

then I'm commended for

35:16

looking youthful. And

35:18

that actually, that kind

35:20

of makes me feel like a little uncomfortable

35:23

because I'm like, well, if I looked

35:25

my age, whatever that may

35:27

be, whatever that's imagined to be,

35:29

what does that mean? What it's

35:32

like? Yeah. So but you would never say

35:34

to a man, I don't

35:36

think, oh, my god, you don't look

35:38

that I don't think that's as often

35:41

the case. I don't think I think age necessarily

35:43

comes into it or anyone really looks or cares

35:45

about how old a man is. The aging process

35:47

is sort of a given. And there's these terms

35:49

like silver fox or whatever. There

35:51

is no equivalent for a woman you become

35:53

an old hag and old wit and old

35:55

wit. Yeah, it's the equivalent. It's

36:00

a female version. Yeah. So I think

36:02

as men get older, they are ascribed

36:04

more kind of

36:09

authority and power and taken

36:11

more seriously. Whereas I think

36:13

women, certainly if they're daring

36:16

to show the signs of

36:18

aging, have the reverse

36:20

and experience. A lot

36:23

of women describe an invisibility that

36:25

they experience as they get older. So

36:27

rather than this kind of increase in

36:30

status, it's very much a decrease in

36:32

status. But one of the things that I write about

36:34

in the book as well is the kind of this

36:37

fear of female power

36:40

and fears historically where women

36:42

kind of had authority and

36:44

had power were often targeted

36:46

because in different contexts, that

36:49

kind of female authority and

36:51

power was seen as threatening

36:53

to the status quo. So

36:56

it was something that was often

36:58

very intentionally targeted. And I think

37:00

that might also be the case

37:02

with older women that there is

37:04

this. Because I know certainly as

37:06

I get older, and I think

37:08

this is common, and you've just

37:11

said something similar yourself, that you

37:13

feel kind of far more comfortable

37:15

in your skin. And

37:17

I think with that comes a

37:20

certain power and authority and

37:23

confidence in yourself and in

37:26

your voice. And I think

37:28

maybe that is perceived as

37:30

threatening. So it's often their

37:33

attempts to quash it. Yeah,

37:35

without a doubt. You talk really

37:37

beautifully. In both of your books

37:39

that I've got here, I've actually Don't Touch My

37:41

Hair and Disobedient Bodies, about the

37:43

Yoruba tradition. So this is the

37:45

culture that your dad grew up

37:47

in that culture? Yeah, so my

37:49

dad is Yoruba. But I

37:52

think a lot of what I write about with regards to

37:56

Yoruba culture is

37:58

pre-colonial Yoruba So

38:00

my dad grew up in Nigeria, but

38:03

my family was like, you know, very

38:06

anglicised. My aunts and uncles

38:08

were all actually born in Ireland in

38:10

the 50s, my Nigerian aunts and uncles, which is

38:12

highly, highly unusual. They went

38:14

back to Nigeria, but they're

38:16

like very international. When

38:19

I spoke to my father

38:21

about many of the traditions from kind

38:24

of like pre-colonial Yoruba culture that I

38:26

learned not necessarily through my

38:28

family, but through studying and teaching

38:31

African studies. When I

38:33

spoke to my father about them, he might not

38:35

have been necessarily like familiar with them. I

38:37

even remember asking my grandfather about

38:39

a philosophical concept in

38:41

Yoruba, and he was an elderly

38:44

man. This was just a couple

38:46

of years before he passed away. And

38:48

he was saying to me that his knowledge

38:50

of the Yoruba language, even though he could

38:52

speak Yoruba fluently, he was saying his knowledge

38:54

of the Yoruba language wasn't actually deep enough

38:57

to kind of translate this

38:59

philosophical principle that I was asking him

39:02

about because it was something like very, very

39:04

old. So these are

39:06

not necessarily concepts that are

39:09

prevalent in Nigeria today, but they

39:11

are in the kind

39:13

of like, they are part of the

39:15

traditional Yoruba worldview or the

39:17

traditional Yoruba metaphysics. And also, they existed,

39:20

which is why we need to learn

39:22

about them. Because

39:26

actually, the way that you describe beauty

39:28

in that context is entirely different to

39:30

the one that we're talking about for

39:32

modern women today in the West. So

39:34

can you tell us about any of

39:36

the traditions that are or have particularly

39:38

helped you in understanding what

39:40

beauty means to you? Yeah, actually,

39:43

there's an example I can give where

39:45

it is still very prevalent, actually.

39:48

So with this book, I was trying to

39:50

trace where these like, why

39:52

this feeling of self-loathing about bodies

39:54

and I think specifically

39:56

weight was so recognizable and was

39:59

so common. place. But again,

40:01

even though it's global to

40:03

a certain extent, it's

40:05

certainly far more pronounced in

40:08

some cultures than others. So

40:10

I remember going back to, so I was

40:13

born in Dublin, but then I spent the

40:15

first few years of my life in Atlanta

40:18

in the American South. And I started going back there

40:20

as a teenager and spending summers there, I still had

40:22

like a lot of family there. And

40:24

I think as a, well, I was a teenager,

40:26

but let me say as a young adult, that

40:29

was the first time I'd been around a

40:32

beauty culture where women

40:34

being like incredibly thin

40:37

wasn't, yeah, wasn't, wasn't

40:39

like the beauty standard. And I think like

40:41

a lot of that has its antecedents in,

40:43

you see that like in a lot of

40:45

black cultures. One of the things

40:48

I'm doing in the book is trying

40:50

to trace what attitudes towards bodies are

40:52

like from cultures that emerge

40:54

out of different philosophical traditions. And

40:56

so I'm, I'm looking at Yoruba

40:58

culture, looking at other cultures, and

41:01

they don't necessarily have that mind.

41:03

There's lots of non-western cultures that

41:05

don't have that mind-body split, don't

41:07

have that hierarchy between the mind

41:09

and the body, and don't have this

41:11

idea of the body as being one

41:13

of the quotes in the book is

41:16

from St. Augustine, and he talks about

41:18

the slimy desires of the body. They

41:20

don't have those kinds of attitudes to

41:22

bodies as being these disgusting things that

41:24

need to be controlled, that are like

41:26

overtly gendered as female and need to

41:28

be disciplined and controlled in that way.

41:30

So that often they have far healthier

41:33

attitudes towards people's body

41:35

types. And I, I

41:38

have in the book an Ariki, which is

41:40

a praise poem, to one of

41:42

the Yoruba orisha, the orisha are

41:44

deities in Yoruba cosmology. And one

41:47

of the most kind of well-known

41:49

orisha is a goddess called Ashun,

41:51

and she is the goddess amongst

41:53

many other things of beauty. But

41:55

her Ariki, her praise poem, I

41:57

think I actually quoted in both of those

41:59

books. I was struck by it

42:01

and it exists in such contrast

42:03

to the beauty culture and attitudes

42:05

about bodies that I grew up

42:07

with in Ireland. So this is

42:09

one of the most beautiful Orisha

42:11

and she's associated with beauty and

42:13

with femininity. One of her

42:15

Oriquis says, a corpulent woman, a woman

42:18

who cannot be embraced around the waist.

42:20

And when I read that, I was just

42:22

like, wow, that is like the antithesis of

42:25

a beauty standard, the beauty standard

42:27

that I grew up in. I

42:29

know, but it's so important that we hear

42:32

about whether it is different parts of the

42:34

world, different cultures or historic times, because so

42:36

much of this and we forget this because

42:38

we're living in the moment is trend led.

42:41

It's not set in stone. It's changing by

42:43

the bloody week at the moment, even when

42:45

it's down to like eyebrows. We're

42:47

meant to be thin. Oh, shit. Well,

42:50

in the 90s, I'm meant to be sick again. And

42:52

we forget that this is all trend led.

42:55

In 100 years, this could not be the case. We

42:57

hope and things will be a lot healthier and much

42:59

more dedicated towards just

43:01

health and not

43:04

trying to overrule the body and quietening

43:06

the mind on these matters. We don't

43:08

know. But this is they're all trends.

43:11

I think you really hit the nail on

43:13

the head where you say they're all trends.

43:15

And also they are all there's even

43:18

though the pendulum swings wildly from

43:20

one kind of side to the

43:22

other and the trends change. And

43:26

the idea of being a particular beauty

43:28

standard. I

43:33

was really interested in some of the

43:35

material I looked at from other kinds

43:37

of cultures and times where there wasn't

43:39

necessarily like a standardised set

43:42

of features or idea of

43:44

beauty that every single person

43:46

or every single woman was

43:48

expected to ascribe to or

43:50

subscribe to or conform to

43:52

rather. But rather beauty was

43:54

assessed on a more individual

43:57

level based specifically.

44:00

on that person rather than just this kind

44:02

of abstract set of features that everybody's supposed

44:04

to have. And again, I found this proverb

44:07

in Yoruba, which I found really interesting, which

44:10

it translated in English into one whose

44:12

beauty is enhanced by their smallpox scars.

44:15

And I was just like, wow, again,

44:17

that's just because on this particular individual,

44:19

the scar, the scars on their face

44:21

made them more attractive. And you

44:23

know, that can be the case. And that's another thing

44:25

we see so often, we're

44:28

under so much pressure to have this really kind of

44:30

homogenized type of look where everybody

44:32

kind of has the same features,

44:34

has the same teeth, has the

44:37

same face. I feel like social

44:39

media is really heightening that. Big

44:41

time, but it's the idiosyncrasies about

44:43

the little differences that exist. That

44:45

make people gorgeous. That make people

44:47

absolutely gorgeous. I saw the most

44:49

stunning woman today, almost went up

44:51

and told her and then didn't.

44:54

But her teeth were like very

44:57

unique to her. And

44:59

if she were to go and have them

45:01

like straightened and all of those procedures, she

45:05

was so stunning. And her teeth were

45:07

really, really part of how striking and

45:09

how incredibly beautiful she was. And

45:12

I feel that those kind

45:14

of idiosyncrasies that we all

45:16

have are often our beauty.

45:20

And I think about all of the features

45:23

that I was bullied for having as a

45:25

teenager and how the pendulum shifted

45:28

and swung and then they became

45:30

desirable features. And you think, oh my

45:32

God, well, what if I had had some kind of intervention to

45:35

try and change them, trying to keep up with

45:37

this standard that is just going to completely shift

45:40

anyway? So I think it's really important that

45:42

we, I don't know, just

45:44

that we have some degree of

45:48

resistance to all of these kind

45:51

of pressures that are being piled on top

45:53

of us. Yes, we have to have the

45:55

resistance because I think, you know, social

45:58

media, especially with the algorithms showing you. stuff

46:00

that you're already looking at so that you

46:02

do just end up in

46:04

an echo chamber of this is what

46:06

I like and you and there's filters

46:08

and god knows what else going on

46:11

that we actually forget about our uniqueness

46:13

and things that are inherently

46:15

us all it could be a scar that reminds

46:17

you of something or it could be a tattoo

46:19

or it could be just something that you don't

46:21

see anyone else has it's a beautiful thing and

46:24

only we can really own that we can't wait

46:26

for the people to tell us we've got to

46:28

feel it but I also like the fact that

46:30

in the book you talk about beauty

46:32

being a verb so it's not just

46:34

something that you happen to be lucky

46:36

enough to have or that only some

46:38

people are privileged enough to experience it's

46:41

a doing it's a doing it's a

46:43

it's a movement and it's something that

46:45

is um you

46:47

can feel it it's an energy yeah

46:49

absolutely so again that was something

46:51

that I saw in other cultures

46:53

I speak a little bit about

46:55

the Navajo people of North America

46:58

and a form of art they have

47:00

where the finished product isn't actually

47:02

what's beautiful but it's the process

47:04

of creating it where the beauty

47:07

lies and similarly in um a

47:09

lot of Yoruba traditional visual art

47:11

it's not just the image of

47:13

the thing that being

47:16

how its beauty is assessed but

47:18

it's actually like it's the

47:21

it's meaning and its usefulness

47:23

so beauty isn't

47:26

just this passive visual

47:29

thing but it's actually

47:31

found in um relationality

47:33

and in and in

47:35

process and in the

47:37

relationships that exists between people and

47:40

between things rather than just in

47:42

the thing in the object itself

47:44

because that's objectification um so how

47:46

can we think about beauty beauty

47:49

in ways that are alternative to

47:52

objectifying yes I think

47:54

it's the healthiest thing we can do alongside

47:56

that much needed resistance at a time when

47:58

the world is very noisy and

48:01

we are bombarded with imagery on not even

48:03

a daily basis, on a like second by

48:06

second basis. We're just seeing stuff and we

48:08

actually forget how much it affects us and

48:10

our self-worth and how we're feeling about our

48:13

bodies, our faces, it's all part of the

48:15

same thing but we forget

48:17

how much we're being impacted by everything we're

48:19

seeing. So the resistance is key. It is

48:22

so key. I love this

48:24

book and I love the term disobedient

48:26

bodies. I just think it's cracking. You've

48:28

nailed it with that one. It does

48:31

what it says on the can. It's like, yeah,

48:33

be free. Stop obeying all of this bollocks and

48:35

just be yourself and be

48:37

your beautiful self. Yeah.

48:39

So we thank you. I feel

48:42

like we live in a society that tells

48:45

us to just be happy with ourselves

48:47

the way we are but then makes

48:49

it virtually impossible for us to do

48:51

so. So with this book, I'm actually

48:53

like trying to provide some kind of

48:55

like specific tools that people can employ,

48:58

knowledge that people can have that

49:00

might actually truly help them

49:03

be able to love

49:05

themselves and enjoy their bodies. Yeah. It's

49:07

the enjoyment, isn't it? Enjoy your body.

49:09

You've got a beautiful body, whatever it

49:11

looks like, whatever it does and can't

49:13

do, it's beautiful. Emma, thank you so

49:16

much. It's been brilliant talking to you

49:18

and thank you for being on Happy

49:20

Place. My pleasure. I've enjoyed it immensely.

49:22

Thanks for having me. Oh,

49:25

Emma, thank you so much for that

49:27

chat. For a start, I just love

49:29

the term disobedient bodies. I think when

49:32

we start looking at the pressures that

49:35

women really have had put on

49:37

them and we see it as

49:39

female obedience rather than anything else,

49:41

that is liberating. That gives us

49:43

a little bit more space to go, wait a

49:45

minute, do I want to do

49:47

that? Do I want to follow suit here and

49:50

conform? And a lot of the time in

49:52

my head, the answer is no. Emma's

49:54

book, Disobedient Bodies, reclaim your

49:57

unruly beauty is out now.

50:00

Oh, it's so freeing. What other books

50:02

have you been reading by the way?

50:04

If you're a big reader like me,

50:06

then come and share your thoughts on

50:08

Instagram. We have a book club called

50:10

athappyplacebookclub. Go check it out and tell

50:12

us what you've been reading. Alright, I'm

50:15

back here with you next week, but

50:17

in the meantime, the biggest thank you,

50:20

again to Emma, to the producer Anushka

50:22

Tate at Rethink Audio, and to you.

50:24

Keep being you! athappyplacebookclub.com

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