0:01

Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and

0:03

this is Happy Place, the show

0:05

that knows real growth can come

0:07

from the darkest places. Today I'm

0:09

chatting to Jess Glenn. Losing a

0:11

friend I think has done a

0:13

job. Like I'm not that Jess from

0:15

before the night that that happened. You

0:17

just don't see life the same ever again.

0:20

And I think what it

0:22

really has taught me is life

0:24

is about making choices for your

0:26

own happiness and that's not selfish.

0:29

That's actually just doing the right thing. It's

0:31

one of those things where because of that

0:34

tragedy and then going through therapy and

0:36

then coming out that I've

0:38

assaulted, now I feel like I've got

0:40

this because what's the worst that could

0:42

happen? Jess made history by becoming the

0:45

first British female solo artist to score

0:47

seven number ones in the UK Singles

0:49

Chart. Her two platinum selling

0:51

albums were both number one records Now

0:54

she's back with her most personal music

0:56

to date. Her new album is called

0:58

Jess and it's a real deep dive

1:00

into who she is, what she's been

1:02

through and how she's feeling. I absolutely

1:05

love her single Enough which I think is

1:07

a song we all need to really take

1:09

heed of. Listen to those

1:11

lyrics and believe it. I

1:14

first met Jess when she came into

1:16

the live lounge. I think it was

1:18

about either 2013 or 2014 and

1:21

she was with Clean Bandit. They were in the

1:23

live lounge and she was on their

1:25

featuring track and I think all of

1:28

us were just like wow who's this?

1:30

That voice is amazing. And

1:32

then I met Jess many times over

1:34

the years in the live lounge, different

1:36

music events and also

1:38

personally because there's also an

1:40

incredibly sad reason we're connected

1:43

too. So one of our

1:45

really brilliant mutual friends died

1:47

really suddenly. So the

1:49

last time I saw Jess, well

1:51

sadly, at her funeral and I

1:53

wasn't sure at the time of

1:55

doing this chat if

1:57

we'd walk into that territory, if we would Talk

2:00

about our mate Lindell, but it very naturally

2:02

came up and it was um It

2:05

was really lovely to have to share some memories of

2:07

Jess but also To hear

2:09

how grief has galvanized her so we

2:11

chatted about how death can change your

2:13

outlook on life Why forgiving

2:16

ourselves and each other is so

2:18

important and why it's really really

2:20

okay To not be anything

2:22

or anyone else but you Acast

2:30

powers the world's best pots.

2:33

Here's the show that we recommend This

2:37

is a perfect time to really kind of give a

2:40

Perspective that Aileen and I think that

2:42

we have we certainly hope we have

2:44

on using Apple

2:47

products as Regular

2:49

folks and to really kind of

2:51

ask the question. How is it really fitting in your

2:53

life? Applevision show is

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you subscribe wherever podcasts are found

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and monetize their podcast

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everywhere acast.com Right

3:13

here we go, this is the show You

3:37

Hi Jess Glenn, hi there. I love

3:40

your new song. Yeah. Thank you so

3:42

much I love it. There's a

3:44

line in the chorus that says I'm more

3:46

than enough guys right yet. How do you

3:48

get to that place? Do

3:50

you know what? That

3:53

song was a real journey and

3:55

I think it's crazy cuz I've

3:57

been on such a break Right?

4:00

Because Covid had happened and then was in

4:02

lockdown and then I was like burnt out

4:04

from tour and I didn't want

4:06

to see a studio or a microphone or anything.

4:09

And then they kind of lifted the rules and we

4:11

went into the studio and so much

4:13

time of passing it was like, well, for me anyway,

4:15

because I'd been on the road for like seven years.

4:17

So six months felt like a long time. I

4:20

went to the studio and there was like this

4:22

self reflection day because there was like, there was,

4:25

was it six of us? Yeah, about six of us of

4:27

like who just came together and were like, who

4:29

survived? Are you all right? Were you okay? We were

4:31

humans. Yeah. We were all like, oh my God, what

4:33

have you been through? How are you feeling? And everyone

4:35

kind of was talking about what they've been through and

4:38

where we like, what was going on and how we

4:40

were feeling. And I was

4:42

obviously talking about my struggles and my like,

4:44

you know, my ins and outs of what

4:46

I was going through with work, with personal

4:48

life. And it was just this

4:50

kind of really nice moment of people reassuring each

4:52

other. You're all right. And you know what? You

4:55

got this like, you like to sound

4:57

this? Course. Yeah. I

4:59

was just like, fuck that. It

5:02

was just one of those like, literally like not in

5:05

a nasty way, but like kind of fuck what everyone

5:07

thinks and like, you're all good. Like, do you? And

5:09

like that reassurance of like, you're good enough to do what you want

5:12

there. And everyone as well in the room.

5:14

So it was really, yeah, it was one of those moments. Not

5:17

many of us feel like that. I think it takes

5:19

such work to get to a place where you go,

5:21

I am enough. Even if I

5:23

never do anything ever again, I am enough

5:25

as I am. I think most of us

5:27

feel really battered by whether

5:29

it's outside commentary from other people or

5:32

just stuff that we've been through. So

5:34

prior to you feeling like I'm good,

5:36

I'm enough, where were you at? Do

5:39

you know what? I think I was in a I was

5:43

on a rollercoaster. I think it was that I

5:45

had been on a road. I released album one

5:48

and then that I've gone crazy and then two

5:50

and then that I go. And it was amazing.

5:52

And I think pre going

5:54

in for this album, I genuinely think I'd like lost

5:56

myself a bit because I was like, oh, what do

5:58

I want to say? and why and it's

6:01

mad because I wrote this song I swear this

6:03

song set the tone it just made me realise

6:05

okay I know where I'm going and I think

6:07

it was I mean it's been a

6:09

whole process like in four years but that

6:11

was the moment I was like this one's definitely going

6:13

on the album and this

6:15

is why because I think when you listen to the

6:17

lyrics of that song it's kind of like every

6:20

lyric and every like the verses it's like okay

6:22

I've done this and then that's alright but this

6:24

happened but then okay that was a barrier but

6:26

then like it's kind of like a push and

6:28

pull the whole song and that's kind of how

6:30

I felt leading up to going back in the

6:32

studio yeah there was a lot of push and pull in my

6:35

life and I think with my team I was

6:37

struggling a lot to find a balance

6:40

of like them understanding who I was

6:42

and also being able to kind of

6:45

it's sometimes hard to execute like

6:47

when you've evolved so much and

6:50

having to explain yourself a lot and it's like I don't

6:52

want to have to keep kind of telling you where I'm

6:54

at and who I am and why

6:56

and that's a drain

6:58

in yeah it's a lot yeah if you

7:00

don't get it you don't get

7:02

it and I think I was at that point actually

7:04

I wasn't ready to be like if you don't get

7:06

it you don't get it and that's okay we can

7:09

part ways I wasn't ready then but

7:11

it was getting to that point I think and

7:13

also you know you're in an industry

7:15

even outside of your label you're in

7:17

an industry that can make

7:20

you feel not enough in so many

7:22

ways whether it's pressure from your label

7:24

pressure from the industry just as a

7:26

whole also the outside commentary

7:29

from your fan base or from

7:31

people listening to your music it's

7:33

pretty relentless in terms of feedback

7:35

so how do you now mitigate

7:37

that to still feel like I'm

7:39

enough I don't need to take

7:42

on other people's whether it is

7:44

critique or whether it's just people

7:46

asking questions that aren't particularly welcome

7:48

yeah it's a journey it's definitely a

7:50

journey and it is crazy because I think

7:53

Just kind of. Even when I wrote this song

7:55

I still didn't have that belief system in myself,

7:58

so that was kind of. I.

8:00

Have a word with yourself, but then it will lie

8:02

it's has been formally another year. We'll see to actually

8:04

get that point where I was like. Oh

8:07

you know you actually good enough And you okay. And

8:09

yes okay to say no. Such a

8:12

lot lot of work is like you

8:14

say the industry so cel of like.

8:16

Expectation. And I

8:18

think also we play on ourselves with

8:21

competitive business were so it's kind of

8:23

like. You're. Surrounded by a lot of

8:25

people. Who. Are like didn't the most

8:27

and these perfect imagery of life when odd

8:30

isn't it is an hour but and at

8:32

to the his life is about anyone else

8:34

is about your journey in his last. Block.

8:37

Out the noise and despite the news and

8:39

what makes you happy by takes a lot

8:41

to get there that me and finance yes

8:43

what else you the helps you get that

8:45

I've ever done therapy is it just having

8:47

a people are a I did go and

8:49

survey so the end the. Twenty. Twenty

8:52

Oh is. So. That's

8:54

what I started the album and is that

8:56

beginning a twenty one. I went. To America.

8:59

For. Like six to eight weeks actually to

9:01

why? Which was. Very. Great, but

9:03

also a really weird experience at

9:05

me because that was the star

9:07

of like. My. Big Lossless

9:09

is that even a word in the

9:12

wilderness eyes? Yeah, I kind of went

9:14

out that just on. My. Own and I

9:16

was like riot and working with some the

9:18

but I'll I've dreamt like Great as and

9:20

on to rent of working with The Light

9:22

more. Aware that there was this

9:25

imbalance. On it was that moment

9:27

of like okay, just. Blocker.

9:29

Every wanted to go in a d

9:31

and it's the first. My really did

9:33

that set my hotel room I would

9:35

blast Only meant to go about the

9:37

old rec with Conrad last. like popular

9:39

music and isn't in the current mean

9:41

I just couldn't connect satellite listening to

9:43

lows. It's only like the blue light

9:46

is amy laser printer to say light

9:48

filled it senses. I and. And.

9:50

Also like I think for

9:52

me, I've never. A

9:54

thing been super open with.

9:57

By. The. World. and away as an

9:59

as apartment really kept to myself and I

10:01

think I made a decision when I was in

10:03

LA to just like Jess, tell

10:05

your story, be honest, be real

10:08

and let it all out in

10:10

this album and write songs that

10:13

when you listen to like a Joni

10:15

story, it's like a real detailed feeling.

10:17

It's like, yeah, so I

10:20

just wanted to achieve that I think. Hence

10:22

why the album's called Jess. Yeah. You're putting

10:24

your story out there actually. That's what people

10:26

think. What do you think led

10:28

to you holding bits of yourself back previously?

10:31

Like what you said

10:33

before, I think there's so much kind of

10:35

pressure and judgment and so much like, I

10:38

mean, fame is scary, don't you think? You were

10:40

in that film early, right? Weird. Yeah. I don't

10:42

know what I feel about it or most of

10:44

the time I just think it's not a thing.

10:46

I just crackle in my life. I go to

10:48

the supermarket. I do all normal things. Yeah. Just

10:50

get on with it. But it is weird.

10:53

It is. It is a weird feeling and I

10:55

think I only really

10:57

notice a difference when I go to

10:59

another country. So I'm like, I don't know, in Ibiza

11:01

or whatever in the summer or wherever I am. And

11:04

I know that I'm completely anonymous. I

11:06

go, I sort of sigh out, like,

11:08

relax, because you're not on that high

11:11

alert of if someone watching me or

11:13

whatever. It's probably going to go, yeah,

11:15

it's mad, isn't it? So there was

11:17

a fear of judgment, would you say,

11:19

holding bits of yourself back? I think

11:21

I just, do you know how

11:23

I could break it down? I think the best thing is

11:25

to, I don't think I was ever, and

11:27

I can only look at it now. I don't

11:30

think I ever felt 100% comfortable.

11:32

And that's in myself, in my job and

11:34

everything where I felt like I know who

11:37

I am. Like, and that's not

11:39

me being cliche or whatever, but I genuinely feel

11:41

like, oh, okay, there's a reason why

11:43

I feel like that now. And it's because

11:45

of the journey I've been on, because I've evolved, because I've

11:47

done a lot of work on myself, because

11:49

I've been through a lot. And I think

11:51

looking back, having had the success I've had,

11:54

and like, being on that journey, it's like,

11:56

I kind of know what's safe and what's

11:58

not now. And also, I genuinely

12:00

do feel like I'm in a stable

12:02

place in my life and I'm not happy with who I am, which

12:05

is a big thing to say and to

12:07

feel. It's huge. But I think that's part

12:09

of it. I

12:11

wouldn't have known that back then, that's why, but I'm guessing

12:13

that's probably why. I never

12:15

felt 100% comfortable to be,

12:18

okay, hi, let's have this chat. Whereas

12:21

now I feel like, oh, okay, I can have that

12:23

chat. I don't think it's a cliche at all. I

12:25

think it's extremely common that most of us growing

12:28

up just are trying to... I remember

12:30

even in the presenting

12:33

quota of my career, I'd be constantly going,

12:35

should I be a bit more like Tommy Ball, who

12:37

I'm absolutely obsessed with, or should I try and be

12:39

more Denise Van Out and in the

12:41

90s, who the hell am I? And it takes you

12:43

so long to work out. It's

12:45

okay to not try and be anything. You

12:47

can just stop trying and just go, just

12:49

be me. And there's

12:51

going to be days where that's great and

12:53

it works out and days where it's just

12:55

not as great and that's absolutely fine. But

12:58

it takes a lot to get there. I think you've done

13:00

it quite early actually. I think. Yeah,

13:02

I hope so. I am

13:04

glad that I feel... I

13:07

think for me, so

13:09

after that album process and then kind

13:12

of like parting ways of my management

13:14

and then parting ways of my record

13:17

label and doing that all on

13:19

your own is like... I mean, it was incredibly hard

13:21

at the time. I can't even tell you. I

13:25

was in

13:27

another place in my head and whatever was going on. I

13:30

think coming through it and being like, whoa, you

13:32

did all of that yourself. You negotiated all of

13:34

that yourself. You figured all of that out. I'm

13:36

like, you're all right. If you can go through

13:38

all of that, then you're all right. Change

13:41

is so scary. Scary.

13:44

Yeah, you're free falling. Because also it's

13:46

like that moment of accepting

13:48

that you might not do another deal. You

13:51

might not do this. You don't

13:53

know what's to come. But I'm a

13:55

very strong believer of self belief and believing in

13:57

what your God says. I've always been

13:59

like... I think and. Saw.

14:02

That nah nah not gonna be a light

14:04

is gonna be like yes I like him

14:06

but now I'm not. Yeah, that's probably how

14:08

about to the hat. Yes when a when

14:10

you strip back everything and your accountable and

14:12

it's just you accountable for way you're going

14:14

with the direction A's I think that's how

14:16

you build resilience than it does you guy

14:18

I'd like you said you got three that

14:20

nail in a good place. We're hims that

14:23

you want to work with. Yeah my hand

14:25

picked because his I eat meat you then.

14:27

I. Guess I was in a position of like

14:29

okay I can choose who I on a

14:31

work with an item if someone makes lie

14:33

if there's a connection and that was like

14:35

this farm is is grown around me and

14:37

is is actually be able to design of

14:39

us who come for me. Yeah but I'm

14:42

from making those decisions and will have he

14:44

insists like I'm now surrounded by something good

14:46

will be able to live in. I was

14:48

built the new foundation and it's like. Hours.

14:50

A day and we like. You. Know is my is

14:53

have been of i say. But. Yeah, authors

14:55

as a as well. I think part

14:57

of that you know lives in a

14:59

friend in the middle of that. I.

15:01

Think has done a job. Me

15:03

as that was. Just. Before

15:06

I actually chose. To leave

15:08

my. Management.

15:10

Am unable and it was like that

15:12

moment of that loss in that light

15:14

on is it was quite tragic. For.

15:16

Me: I think that I've my eyes

15:19

to like. Make. Choices: Your

15:21

unhappiness Class issue Oh god I

15:23

entirely I mean just the contacts

15:25

for the listeners. This is a

15:27

friend that with a mutual friend

15:29

of us he was was I

15:32

was wondering this one actually spite

15:34

T Lindau partner yeah behind Tom.

15:36

And. i said let me in chess the

15:39

subject will probably turn to linda elliot

15:41

some data to she was such a

15:43

huge part of baseball lives and amish

15:45

made it such impacts on everyone's mind

15:47

set on my you is just the

15:49

most incredible character and it's easy to

15:51

say that when someone's not have any

15:53

made by she really was a special

15:55

passer by things they know it's so

15:57

easy like people say that when they're

16:00

not here but this person

16:02

yeah. And also

16:04

she died extremely suddenly which

16:06

was I mean beyond

16:08

a shock for all of us to sort

16:10

of comprehend and get our heads around and

16:13

it was almost impossible. I still feel like it's

16:15

impossible that she's not here. Yeah, there's that thing

16:17

that I can't remember someone's head to me. It's

16:19

like you live your life and you kind of

16:22

pretend they're still there. Because you're like oh I

16:24

just don't see her today. Yeah. You like think

16:26

about her and you're like oh no it's just

16:28

because there's something in

16:30

Australia. Yeah and when someone was so

16:33

like bright and vibrant personality wise

16:35

you just think you can't

16:37

not be here. It's too weird and

16:39

I think you know for anyone that's

16:42

been through anything like that and and

16:44

for it to be in shocking circumstances

16:47

it can't not change you. How do

16:49

you think that notion

16:51

of life is short has impacted

16:53

you and your decision making? Um

16:56

so the impact of that in

16:59

my life has been huge. I think it's again

17:03

it sounds cliche it's like changed me forever. Like

17:05

I'm not that deaf from before the night

17:07

that that happened. It's mad like I'm

17:09

still obviously me but I think you

17:12

just don't see life the same ever

17:14

again. And I think that's when

17:16

I really started therapy because it was something that obviously

17:18

I really needed to like figure out and deal with

17:20

because of PTSD and all of that stuff. And I

17:22

think what it really has taught me

17:24

is like life

17:26

is about making choices for your

17:29

own happiness and that's not selfish.

17:31

That's actually just doing the right

17:33

thing and that person

17:35

Lindell was the one person that

17:37

always was like you got to

17:39

do what you got to feel. And you know even

17:41

the last time I was with her we

17:44

had the conversation about my whole team and whatever and

17:46

you know she was like do this go get

17:49

this and to be honest all the conversations we

17:51

had and all the choices she told me to

17:53

do I've done them all. Wow. So it's kind

17:55

of beautiful but it's one of those things where

17:58

because of like that tragedy and

18:00

then going through therapy and then kind of

18:02

coming out that I've assaulted, now

18:04

I feel like, okay, I got this because what's the worst

18:06

that could happen? You know, and that's it.

18:10

I've been through that, like, come on, give

18:12

it to me. Do you know what I mean? You feel like you've built this armour

18:14

now of like, I've got

18:16

this, you know, as hard as it is

18:19

and like reflecting, it's not easy, but it's like, you

18:21

know what, I've

18:23

got this. Yeah. Yeah.

18:27

It's such a strange, complex thing

18:30

to look back on. I was speaking

18:32

to Tom this morning

18:36

on voice note. There's all these

18:38

stories that keep coming and sometimes

18:40

you think, is it appropriate to share these memories? It's

18:42

again, sort of feeling your way, like, is it okay

18:44

to share this memory today? So I've had all these

18:47

brilliant sort of memories bubble up and

18:49

your time together. But actually

18:51

one of the memories I was talking

18:53

to him about was I got so

18:55

bollocked at the funeral because I

18:57

was in the car park afterwards with

19:00

a small group of people. And

19:02

because she made such an impact

19:04

on everyone's life, and all

19:07

of our stories were so

19:09

funny, like all the memories that I have of

19:11

her were like, we were either hysterically laughing or

19:13

something absolutely bananas were happening.

19:15

We were like sort of crying,

19:17

but laughing our heads off. And

19:20

it felt like a very Lindell

19:22

moment. And the guy who

19:24

was doing the next service came

19:26

out and was like, guys, can you

19:28

shut the hell up? We're doing like another

19:31

funeral. And we were like, Oh my God.

19:33

I was like, again, that is the most

19:35

Lindell like she would have been like cracking

19:37

up with laughter. But it's a strange thing.

19:44

And I don't think you ever really get your head

19:46

around it. But I do think like you just, it's

19:48

a part of the journey. It is. And you live

19:50

differently. And not in a

19:52

bad way. I think it's like, it's one of those things

19:54

that I don't often talk about. But it

19:57

is one of those things that I can at least look back and

19:59

it's like It is so shit that

20:01

that happened and I wish it never happened,

20:03

but I can at least kind of like

20:05

move forward now and knowing that it's been

20:07

like actually my changes in my life and

20:10

the pluses that are like that I'm

20:12

living because she was that person that was like

20:14

you have to be you and do you and

20:16

what's right and if walking away from that is

20:18

right and choosing this as your team and going

20:20

here like you got to do that and I

20:23

think having that voice on my

20:25

shoulder regardless of whether it's you know she's here

20:27

or not it's definitely put me in a place

20:29

where I'm like I can be like thanks

20:32

you know like you helped even though

20:34

you disappeared but. Yeah but we've

20:36

all got to live like that regardless

20:38

whatever the situation that life

20:41

is so short and like we all know even this

20:43

last few years has been this weird time warp of

20:45

what is time and what year are we

20:47

in and what's going on we've got to just

20:49

like grab life and go for it I think

20:51

we all forget and we all get complacent it's

20:53

human nature that we've stuck in the mind you

20:55

shy of life and oh god I'm late for

20:57

this I've got this big list of things to

21:00

do but actually we've got to grab life and

21:02

just go for it we've got to. That's the

21:04

thing I think as well over the past few

21:06

years obviously been going you know doing an album

21:08

work it I've been working my ass off to

21:10

make sure that you know I get this album

21:12

done and quite even leave it like going up

21:14

to five years since my last record like it's

21:17

like you say this time warp is

21:19

mad but then it's like through that

21:21

time I'm like oh I'm so glad

21:23

I make choices now to like go

21:25

on holiday and take time off and

21:27

if my family put that first or

21:29

like I don't always prioritize work you

21:32

know I think that's also something that in this

21:34

industry is so easy to do it's like saying

21:37

yes to everything you don't want to miss an

21:39

opportunity but actually what is that opportunity and how

21:41

important is that in comparison to like you

21:44

living your life and like having you know a

21:46

moment's break or being with your man or you

21:48

know I think we give ourselves such a hard

21:50

time in choosing to have time

21:52

out or switching off even at the weekends and I'm

21:54

not going to think about whatever it

21:57

is I'm doing I think the industry and there's

21:59

a lot of industry. like this that certainly perpetuate

22:01

that feeling of I've got to keep on the

22:03

move I've got to keep thinking and mulling over

22:05

things but actually we're not going to look back

22:07

one day and go I'm so glad that all

22:10

I did was work and work and

22:12

work like we're gonna look back and think of all

22:14

the little precious memories of like little breaks like time

22:16

of your nan or time of your family. It's mad

22:18

isn't it? You forget that though when you're in it.

22:20

And I think that's where I get

22:23

to like Jess and the album and I'm like

22:25

yeah you know what this is taking time

22:27

and when I listen through it it doesn't

22:30

feel like an erratic record

22:32

and I think that's why I like love it so much as

22:34

well so I'm like oh you know what maybe it's taking a

22:37

long time because of all these things but at

22:39

least I can listen to it and go you know what it

22:41

all makes sense. There's also a

22:43

song there called Silly Me which I think is really

22:45

something that we

22:47

need out there and there's a lot of people at

22:50

home like we've got Dawn French coming

22:52

up on the podcast soon and she's written a

22:54

book called The Flat Files which is amazing. The

22:56

flat what? Flat files. I thought you said the

22:58

fart. What's that fart? She probably loves that. And

23:00

it's all about the moments where you're just a

23:02

massive twat which we all are all the time

23:05

we all make mistakes and we've

23:07

got to reiterate this message that we're human and

23:09

that there's going to be things that we look

23:11

back and think I wish I hadn't done that

23:13

or I wish I hadn't messed up here whatever

23:15

we've all done it but I think the

23:17

margin for error is getting so small and

23:19

there's no room for any of us to

23:21

make mistakes anymore and I think that's so

23:23

unhealthy. It is. It's so unhealthy and I

23:25

think and I'm sure I don't know whether

23:28

you have experience like the social world social

23:30

media world and it's like the attack and

23:32

like just minor error

23:34

becoming the end of someone's career and

23:36

it's like look at the end of

23:38

the day some things yeah okay you

23:41

need to lock off and what

23:43

have you. I just think it's allowing

23:45

room for people to make a mistake but in

23:47

teaching them and going do you know what as

23:49

long as that person if they've made that mistake

23:52

can go and learn from it and actually

23:54

teach themselves why they made that fuck up

23:56

or whatever it was and they can you

23:58

know rectify in their

24:00

life moving forward. What's the problem? I

24:02

agree. Because you out there can say

24:04

I've never made a mistake so I

24:07

therefore can judge you on yours. Nobody.

24:09

Nobody. And it's really dangerous territory for

24:11

us to get into a space where

24:13

we're like, everyone's got to get it

24:15

perfect all the time. That's impossible

24:17

but it also sets a horrible standard for

24:20

everyone else and I think that's where we

24:22

start to internalise shame and guilt

24:24

and really harbour it and we don't need to.

24:26

We should be able to go, oh fucked up,

24:29

sorry, let's move on. Because I think actually the

24:31

more forgiving, and this is what I think people

24:33

forget, especially like people keyboard worrying, whatever. If

24:36

we're forgiving of other people we're going to forgive

24:38

ourselves more easily, which is a relief. That's a

24:40

huge relief. I love that you brought that up

24:43

as well, like silly me. When I did that

24:45

song and I made sure that that was the

24:47

first song that kind of came out of me

24:49

and into the world

24:51

before everything started again, purely

24:53

for that reason. Because I felt

24:56

like that message and I feel like that message

24:58

is so freaking important. This

25:00

is me and oh gosh, literally silly

25:02

me because it is like that. You

25:04

shouldn't be so hard on yourself. You

25:06

shouldn't be so heavy with it and

25:08

it's like, look, I

25:10

could look back and I've definitely made a lot

25:13

of mistakes. We all have. I don't look back

25:15

and think, you bad person, you're

25:17

not an intentionally bad person. You're just

25:19

like, we're tripping up and I

25:21

had to learn along the way and that's why

25:23

you're here and I'm probably going to chip up

25:26

again. Oh my God. That's the most humbling thing.

25:28

We're going to keep doing it forever. Yeah. I'm

25:30

going to do it again. I think it's like

25:32

the sooner we start accepting that and stop getting

25:34

these big fat boundaries between and

25:36

fear, because that's what it does. It stills

25:39

like a fear in you. I

25:41

think that's another thing, just to go

25:43

back to Lindell, it's like she was

25:45

fearless. Fearless. Fearless. I think honestly,

25:48

those things that that person

25:50

surrounded us with. I

25:52

live here. I really do. And I like what

25:55

I've done with this record and moving forward with my life. And it's like,

25:57

I have to be honest with you. I'm just like, I'm not going to

25:59

do it. to be fearless, you know,

26:01

and have to dive in at the deep end because it's like, if

26:03

you don't do it now, and you're gonna do it, yeah,

26:06

like, that's the matter thing. It's like, well,

26:08

if you don't make that choice now, then it might

26:10

be too late, or you might miss that choice,

26:13

we that opportunity or whatever that is. Because

26:15

then and then you're like, then you really are

26:17

like, silly me. Yeah. And also, no one out

26:20

there can try anything new, or do anything without

26:22

someone saying something for your auntie, or it could

26:24

be a million people on social media. But there's

26:26

always going to be someone that says, Oh, I

26:28

don't know if you should be doing that, or

26:30

you're not very good at that. So you just

26:33

got to fuck it all off and do the

26:35

thing. Right. You got to do the thing. Do

26:37

the thing. Yeah, I still like

26:39

tell myself this all the time. So I'm

26:41

constantly wanting to push myself, try new things,

26:43

do new things. But there is always that

26:45

fear of, oh my God, what will people

26:47

say? What will people think? I've just got

26:49

to get rid of that fear. I mean, you

26:52

came off social media for quite some time

26:54

as it could break from it. How was

26:56

it integrating back into that world, putting yourself back

26:58

out there in that way? I

27:00

think for me, I came

27:02

off of it because I really did need

27:04

a break. Something had happened and I

27:06

felt incredibly battered,

27:09

to be honest, I just be real. And

27:12

I was receiving like a lot of negativity and

27:14

like deference and like, it was just, I was

27:17

like, Whoa, I didn't

27:19

realise it could affect me that much,

27:21

like an actually really, like

27:24

a computer could attack you. Yeah, I just

27:26

didn't. Yeah, it was

27:28

crazy. And I think I

27:31

was like, right, I need to re collaborate.

27:33

Re-collaborate? Yeah. And I was like, I don't

27:35

need to live on this for now. And

27:38

it's been a journey, but it's been actually

27:40

a really like, good journey to this

27:42

point. So I now like, built a really great

27:44

relationship with it. Social media

27:46

is one of those things I think is

27:48

actually amazing. It allows you to connect with

27:50

your fans and connect with people, like share

27:53

your creativity, how you want to like, be

27:55

authentic, be real, but also like keep something

27:57

for yourself. And I think that's what

27:59

I do. do love about it is that side. And

28:02

I think I've got to that point where it's

28:04

like, I give as much as I feel comfortable with

28:06

and I have a team that support me massively with it

28:08

all and help me control it because I'm not amazing

28:10

at it. But it's all led by me, you know, nothing

28:13

ever goes out without me or approved or what have you. But

28:15

I've built a relationship with it like where I'm like, cool, if

28:17

I need to come off it, I can come off it. And

28:20

if I want to be on it, I'm on it. And I

28:22

think that's actually how everyone should

28:24

be. Because it can be

28:26

like life controlling. And I think that's

28:28

why I remove

28:30

myself to like have a moment to be

28:32

like, right, let me live life. Let

28:35

me do me. Let me write this album.

28:37

Let me be like wholesomely like authentic and

28:39

real and live in a moment. And

28:42

then when I'm ready, I'll be back. And

28:44

I got there. Yeah, so

28:46

good. And that's empowering. I

28:49

can just step away if this isn't like feeling

28:51

good to me. If you're not feeling

28:53

good about it, why be on it? I think

28:55

we feel it's such a given that there's

28:58

certainly people in your position that you should be on

29:00

social media telling us everything. And it's like actually you're

29:03

in control of what you put out there and

29:05

when. And if you feel happy about that, I

29:07

mean, it is how did because I've certainly been

29:09

there. How did it

29:11

affect you getting bombarded on

29:14

social media? It's a shitty

29:16

feeling. I personally was in a dark,

29:18

dark, other shit going on. This is

29:21

years and years ago and other

29:23

stuff going on. But

29:25

I was totally like rock

29:27

bottom. It wasn't just

29:29

that, but I had a lot of stuff

29:31

going on that just compounded it. And I

29:33

think you do. I certainly lost a sense

29:35

of who I was, what

29:38

my skill set was, because it's like I wouldn't

29:40

be doing this if I didn't know how to

29:42

do it. So I can't conflate what I know

29:45

with what other people are saying about me. I've

29:47

got to stay strong with no, wait a minute.

29:49

I've been doing this for years. I know what

29:51

I'm doing and finding that confidence again. But like

29:53

you say, batagé. Absolutely batagé.

29:56

Do you know the way you just

29:59

described how you were? I think that was it.

30:01

It was like, I was like, I

30:03

think when it all happened,

30:07

like you say, it wasn't just that.

30:09

I mean, massively that moment was

30:11

like hell no, I don't want to,

30:13

I couldn't even. But then it was like

30:15

the components of everything else around it, like

30:18

the lack of support, the lack of so

30:20

many different things. And then the like feeling

30:22

of like, yeah, like who am I? What

30:25

am I doing? Why is it, why is this

30:27

happened? Why is that happened? Am I now looking

30:29

at like so many different points in my life

30:31

that felt so, what

30:34

is the word like out of control? And

30:36

it was like, and there was no one there. But

30:39

actually, like I'll never forget actually this day

30:41

that I woke up because, look,

30:45

I'll talk about it. Basically I did a broadcast

30:48

and it

30:50

just, something came out unapproved.

30:52

And I woke up in the morning and

30:54

like all my kind of,

30:57

like the community was messaging me, like

31:00

my friends and like someone really close to me, Glyn from

31:03

Think the Pink who, I mean, his boyfriend, he is. I had

31:05

these people like, are you all right? And all these things. And

31:07

I was thinking, what do you mean am I all right? Like

31:09

I didn't understand what the hell was going on. I

31:11

woke up to just a bombard of

31:13

like love. Terrific, but it's also horrific. You're

31:15

like, what the fuck's going on? I was like,

31:17

yeah, I'm great. Like what's going on? Oh

31:20

my gosh. And then I opened my socials

31:22

and I was like, oh

31:24

gosh. And I remember lying in

31:26

bed and being like, oh

31:29

my gosh. And like, you're helpless. It's

31:32

like, it's out there. There's no going back.

31:34

And also it's like, there's

31:36

no way you can

31:39

explain yourself in those moments

31:41

because actually there's nothing to say.

31:43

And I've learned this only now where I'm like, at

31:46

that point in time, there was nothing I

31:48

could say. I'm not going to jump on and be

31:50

like, no, no, no, no, no, because

31:53

you know what, at that point it's like, I

31:55

actually, I remember speaking to Glenn

31:57

and just going, just

32:00

teach me how have I offended so

32:02

many people? I just need

32:04

to learn because I'm not going to act.

32:06

I don't want to speak. I don't want to do anything until I

32:09

actually learn my position. And

32:14

he was like, cool, I got you. Obviously, he had

32:16

a complete meltdown. And the people that actually saved me

32:18

in that whole thing were my two best mates. So

32:21

like Jolene and Janay, I just remember the door going

32:23

at like eight o'clock in the morning, fair down. And

32:26

I opened the door and they were both there like, and

32:29

I was like, I'm done. Like I genuinely in that

32:31

day, I think, I was already going through it. And

32:33

I was like, I quit. I quit everything. I was

32:35

like, at this point in time, I think it got

32:37

to the afternoon. And I was like, I'm done with

32:40

everything. I was like, I absolutely can't do this anymore.

32:42

I was like, this is how life is going to

32:44

be. I don't want to be doing this

32:46

as my job. I don't want to be in this. I

32:48

don't want to work. I just couldn't deal. It's like the

32:50

end of everything. That's what it felt like. Yeah. And

32:53

it's just like, and that didn't go

32:55

away quickly. I think it's like

32:58

for me to be like, I don't

33:00

ever want to do music again. I don't ever want

33:02

to, you know, like to feel that. And I'm sure

33:04

like you get it where you're like, I don't know

33:06

who's there. I don't want to

33:08

do TV still now. It's mad. I don't think

33:12

you get there. Like I might get there and go,

33:14

Oh, I'd quite like to go back and do this

33:16

and that. But I think you just go, I know

33:18

what my limits are now. And I know where I

33:20

feel comfortable where I don't. I

33:22

know. I think it's just, do

33:25

you know what? It's like I look back and I

33:27

think, Oh my gosh, moments

33:29

have an in life. And I'm like, when I think

33:31

of like those three years of like 2021

33:34

and 22, I'm like, Whoa,

33:36

sucker punch after sucker punch. And I'm like,

33:38

but I don't look at it and I

33:40

don't want any pity or like, I never

33:42

want people to feel sorry for me because

33:45

look, people go through shit. It just like

33:47

it humbles you though. And I think it really

33:49

kind of makes like, I

33:51

feel like a much more kind of loving

33:54

human being. Like I love everyone, like everyone

33:56

I see in a race, man. Like I

33:58

never ever, ever want to. make

34:01

anyone feel anything other than loved or

34:03

feel supported or feel like, hi, you're

34:05

right, that doesn't cost anything to just

34:07

be nice. I think like that's

34:09

one thing in my life I'm just like, be

34:12

you and be nice. Yeah, you know. But

34:15

it's, you know, not to be

34:18

reductive about how much work it's taking

34:20

you to get to that place. Oh

34:22

yeah, no. But that's a really wonderful

34:24

outcome of some shitty times. Because

34:26

when you do walk around and you're like, I

34:28

hate everyone, like that's really, like I mean. Well

34:30

I think you start to lose trust and you

34:32

start to just feel like, what's the point in

34:34

doing any of this anymore? I've been there, like

34:36

I totally hear everything you're saying. I've been there

34:38

but I'm like, I'm done, I don't want to

34:41

do this, I'm just gonna go and try and

34:43

find another career route or something. I don't know, I

34:45

was totally all over the gap. I think, you

34:47

know, you work out the bits that you

34:50

feel like you are capable of doing it

34:52

changes your mindset and you work out a

34:54

way to deal with it. But it's

34:56

hard, yeah. It's really hard. And

34:58

I think for me, like the one

35:01

thing I generally think my therapist

35:03

saves me, it's mad because like therapy

35:05

is one of those things that I've definitely

35:07

dabbled in my life. But at the point

35:09

of which I entered that room and met

35:11

my therapist, I'm like, I

35:14

actually don't know. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

35:16

Because I look back and like, coming

35:18

into this record, I think for me,

35:20

the most important thing is that everyone

35:23

understands how authentic it is because

35:25

I think it's easy to

35:27

say like, I wrote the song and

35:29

I felt this way. Like, that's not

35:31

how it is. It's like, that for me, I'm not the

35:33

best at expressing my emotions. But when I go in

35:35

a room with people, I feel safe with the

35:37

best way in which I do express is when I

35:40

write and I think and when I sing and when

35:42

I feel like I can just talk

35:44

to a microphone and I was on a human being because

35:47

I don't like feeling like that's been my journey.

35:50

But it's like, that's why I'm like, so

35:52

this album for me, like, and obviously why

35:55

I've called it Jessica, it's like, it really

35:57

wholesomely is that and it's like, it's been

35:59

that journey. like, I mean,

36:01

all these things that have gone on and

36:03

listen, not all of its negatives, you know

36:05

what I mean? Like, there's so much positive,

36:07

like the new team, like the way that

36:09

I've just been allowed to be me on

36:11

this process, it's like, Jess, who do you

36:13

want to work with? Go do

36:15

you go figure it out, like come back to us and

36:17

then sitting in a room with people and they're like, right,

36:20

this is amazing. Let's collaborate and let's just

36:22

like make it even better. Here's my advice

36:24

and signing a deal with two women who

36:26

are so like head of their game and

36:29

like at the head of the label

36:31

and it's like surrounded actually by

36:33

so many strong women. Like that

36:35

I think is also such

36:37

a like amazing part of my

36:39

journey. So what part of you felt suppressed

36:41

or caged prior to this? What's what sort

36:44

of liberation have you experienced in your life?

36:46

This is what I couldn't do before.

36:48

This is what I couldn't say before. I think for

36:50

me, what it was is that I

36:52

think I came into it

36:55

young I suppose, like youngish. Well,

36:57

I was young. Yeah, I was in early 20s. Yeah, I looked

36:59

back at

37:01

the first live lounge you did with me. Yeah, yeah.

37:03

2014. There you go. Clean Bandit. There

37:08

you go. The cover of Jungle Busy Earning,

37:10

which was so good. I forgot how good

37:12

it was. And I remember everyone was like,

37:15

wow, who was this voice? Oh my

37:17

God. Like it was a real, it was

37:19

a beautiful moment having you on. Oh my

37:21

God. 10 years. Yeah. That's crazy. I think

37:26

the parts I was holding back, I think

37:28

I wasn't quite sure if I'm honest, but

37:30

I know that it's that, okay,

37:32

how do I put it? This industry is crazy,

37:35

right? And I think when you sign a deal

37:37

and you have success and it's like all go

37:39

and everyone's just on that wave, it's like, stick

37:42

to what you know, stick to what's working. And

37:44

I think for me, and especially like my best

37:46

mate who I've actually worked with since I mean,

37:48

we've been mates since I was 11 and she's

37:51

my creative director. We're such like,

37:53

I mean, she's a visionary. Like she, she like

37:55

reads my mind. She sees what I wish I

37:57

could see. And it's amazing.

38:00

And I think it's that the industry

38:02

and the pop industry, there's definitely restrictions

38:04

of like, sometimes I think, of where

38:06

you can go with it. And I

38:08

think at times it's like, you get

38:11

these ideas and you want to execute them,

38:13

but then it's kind of like, not everyone

38:15

understands it. But I've learned that that's all

38:17

right, actually, because not everyone has that capacity

38:19

to see it, because they don't know

38:21

that that's, I don't know, like they've not

38:23

done it before, so that it doesn't feel safe to them. But

38:26

I think for me, what I've learned is that not

38:29

being safe is the best freaking thing in

38:31

the world. Actually, like, taking

38:33

risks is what actually has like, made

38:36

me so freaking like, inspired and

38:38

excited and actually done the best work, like

38:40

written the best songs. Because no

38:43

one's told me that they want something from me, they said,

38:46

go and do you, and then let's go back in

38:48

on it. And then let's figure it out. Because like,

38:50

the most important thing is that you're happy, not me,

38:53

because it's not about anyone else. And not

38:55

that's not, again, being selfish. It's like, this

38:57

is your album, and this is your story.

38:59

So go tell your story. And then they're

39:01

like, then let's go in on it. Whereas

39:04

before, I don't think it was so much of go

39:07

tell your story and be free to be you. It

39:09

was a lot of like, insecurities

39:12

around me and a lot of like, like

39:14

doubt, which then makes me feel doubtful.

39:16

So then there's like this, where

39:19

are we going? But like, are you sure? But they're not sure. But

39:21

they're like, Oh, no, we've got to stick to what's right. It's like,

39:24

like, you don't, yeah, you don't trust yourself

39:26

to just break boundaries. Like,

39:29

ever since I stepped on the scene, I feel

39:31

like I've knocked down doors. And I feel like

39:33

what I've done has never been like the norm.

39:35

Why would I continue to then change

39:38

my ways and stick in a cardboard box? So

39:40

like, that's kind of like a lot of what I've

39:42

learned. I'm like, knock down in

39:45

doors. Yeah. Yeah. I think the audience feel

39:47

it as well. Because if they think you're

39:49

just popping out a two

39:51

minute pop song that's gonna do well on

39:53

radio, they're like, Oh, well, where is this

39:55

they're feeling something? That's it. Like if you

39:57

all the people you listed earlier, like Prince,

40:00

example who did not play by the books ever. I

40:02

mean I went and saw him at the roundhouse I

40:04

don't know how many years ago probably over ten years

40:06

ago he didn't play a single

40:08

hit. Not one. Everyone was

40:10

like play one free break. No

40:12

mate I'm doing a jazz set. He's not

40:14

my friend. But it was so funny. That

40:17

gig will stay in my mind forever because

40:19

it was so unexpected. So it's

40:21

a harder route but it's the better route. Yeah I

40:23

think it's just that for me

40:25

like when I listen to music it's

40:27

all about feeling. You know be

40:29

that like I want to have fun or cry or

40:32

whatever it is and I think for me it's like

40:34

if my song can make you feel something and

40:37

you can like take something away from it from

40:39

the message from the feeling that you've got in

40:41

your body or your mind or whatever it is

40:43

I've done my job. Yeah. Because like that to

40:45

me is like the best gift of anything because

40:47

like when I listen to records like I know

40:50

when I listen to like Purple

40:52

Rain for example we're talking about Prince right? I

40:54

just know what mood I have to be in

40:56

because if I'm listening to that record I know that I

40:58

need to just immerse myself in a

41:01

moment. Yeah. And then it's like even Beyonce

41:03

just released that Texas Hold'em right? And I'm

41:05

like I needed this. I needed this feeling.

41:07

I don't know what I couldn't even explain

41:09

it to you but I played it on

41:11

my people because I needed that feeling. And it's

41:13

not like expected it's like

41:15

a feeling of like oh I just

41:17

roar like country record. I love it.

41:19

Yeah. Prince Purple Rain I need

41:21

to be looking out of a window having

41:24

a cry. You know. But in a really

41:26

good healthy way like I'm getting it all

41:28

out. I need a minute. Yeah. I need

41:30

little Prince Purple Rain minute. I love that.

41:32

You're also in a really happy healthy relationship.

41:34

Do you think you had to get happy

41:36

and healthy to be in that or it

41:38

got you there? That's a good

41:40

question. Do you know what? It's

41:42

a really interesting journey I think because

41:44

I feel like people say

41:46

to you don't they? You

41:49

can't like find that feeling

41:51

unless you're happy in yourself right?

41:53

And I think for me it

41:55

has been like a crazy journey

41:57

of relationships and I think The

42:01

work that I've done on myself has

42:03

actually settled me inside and I think

42:05

it's allowed me to enter a relationship

42:07

where I feel very comfortable

42:09

and I'm allowed to like, and I'm

42:12

just me, but I'm actually

42:14

unapologetically me. That

42:16

goes for work, for even my

42:18

relationship with my family, with everything.

42:20

I think every relationship around me

42:22

has got better because of the

42:24

relationship with myself and it has

42:27

allowed me to be just really happy in a new

42:29

relationship. But it's mad to get there,

42:31

I think, for me as well because I

42:34

think love is a really

42:36

scary subject in all walks

42:38

of life and I think when you've been

42:40

through trauma and you've been through a lot in your

42:42

life, I think love is the one thing that you've...

42:44

Well, for me anyway, it's that one thing that I

42:46

keep at a distance. So I'm

42:48

like, yeah, it's a nice thing

42:51

to be able to embrace someone and the

42:53

relationship that feels really genuinely good. Does

42:55

it help that Alex is in the public

42:57

eye that you can actually... You

43:00

get that side of each other's life

43:02

and the expectation that comes with

43:04

that? Do you know what?

43:06

It's something I'm getting used to. It's

43:09

like, for me, I've always made a

43:11

conscious decision in my life when I

43:14

started my career. I

43:16

guess it's a conscious decision, but it's like the thing

43:18

that I love is that I love

43:21

doing my job and stepping out there.

43:23

But then what I do love is

43:26

that I've managed somehow to keep my

43:28

personal life to myself because it's so

43:30

important, you get to go home and

43:32

that's yours. And no one has access

43:34

to that. And that's

43:36

something that is like you keep close to your

43:38

heart. And I think that's something that I've actually

43:40

enjoyed and still even now,

43:42

even though we're both in this public

43:45

space, it's like, but what we have

43:47

at us. And it's actually

43:49

like, I feel like that's something I

43:51

will always do because people want so

43:53

much from you in every sense of

43:56

the word. And

43:58

I think what is beautiful is that... You

44:00

both feel that way and you both got that and

44:02

that's something you're gonna keep for yourself. And like, it's

44:04

up to you, isn't it? Like, I was reading this

44:06

book, um... Untamed

44:08

by... Glennon Doyle. Glennon Doyle. Yeah,

44:11

really? Yeah, amazing. She's been

44:13

on here! Has she been on here? Yeah!

44:15

Oh, I've had a great chat. She has.

44:17

I love her. I love her. No, but

44:20

actually, this book, like... This book is amazing.

44:22

It's cheater analogy at the start. I know.

44:24

I first bet... Do you know, like, since

44:26

reading that book, I'm like, you know what?

44:29

It has, like, trust, right? I

44:31

love the thing she wrote about trust and it was...

44:34

It's up to you who you trust. It

44:36

is not up to anyone else. If you wanna

44:38

say, like, what did she say? Oh, I love

44:41

the way she wrote it. But basically,

44:43

it was just like... Your trust

44:45

is yours. And if you wanna talk about something, you

44:47

talk about it if you don't. And that's for no

44:49

one to judge you. Nope! But like, giving

44:51

your trust to someone, that's your prison. I

44:53

love that. It's like... Me trusting you is

44:55

my presence. If you don't allow me to

44:57

feel that way, you don't get it. And

45:00

that's like... I love that. It's

45:02

so good. She's really good with boundaries. I

45:04

know what's what... But equally, like, we've just

45:06

talked about knocking down doors and going, I

45:09

don't care that you're trying to put

45:11

me in this box or maybe something. I

45:13

am not that. I'm gonna do what I

45:15

wanna do. That's just totally untamed. It's such

45:18

a clever, clever book. Isn't it? And like,

45:20

the way she just talks like... The way

45:22

she's taught her... Like, look, I don't have

45:24

kids, but I'd love to... If I... When

45:26

I have children, like... Teach them

45:29

the... Like, the way that she's obviously been through

45:31

a lot, right? And then she gets to that

45:33

point where she's like... I'm

45:35

actually gonna leave this marriage and show my

45:38

kids actually what they should do. And that's

45:40

be brave. And being brave is putting yourself

45:42

first. This may be tough and like, may

45:44

break you or whatever, but... I'm breaking you

45:46

to show you that you shouldn't be booked

45:48

in. Because so much of like, being a

45:51

woman, I do believe, is that... We abide

45:53

by so many rules because we feel like

45:55

we have to. Because it's such an ancient

45:57

frickin' rule. And it's like, but why? Like

46:00

if I don't want to be in that relationship, or if I don't want

46:02

to be in that work off, I don't want to do this, I'm

46:04

entitled to say no. And just because I'm

46:06

a woman, or because I'm like seen as

46:09

like a week, like I'm not weak, I'm

46:11

actually really young and it's actually empowering. Like

46:13

all these decisions like that I know

46:15

I've made have made me feel so

46:17

much more empowered. And like she's like, I don't

46:19

know, the way she talks about it, I was

46:22

like, yeah, she's such a good writer. Oh, I

46:24

can't, she's so amazing. I love that. I think

46:26

remembering back to the podcast episode, I think I

46:28

was like quite sycophantic for about the first five

46:30

minutes. So I was just like, I love you,

46:32

I love you so much. She's amazing. Yeah, you're

46:34

like, oh my God, it stays with you. Yeah,

46:36

not many books do that. It's so clever, it's

46:38

so clever. I'm so glad you read it as

46:41

well. Because I think it's, if you're on any

46:43

kind of hate the word but I'm gonna use

46:45

it journey, and you're like discovering

46:47

new things about yourself, and you're working through

46:49

like what you want and what you don't

46:51

want, it's such a perfect book to read

46:53

at that time. Isn't it? So good. And

46:55

it's like, you finish that book, and then

46:58

there's like a, well for me, it was like

47:00

an affirmation of like, yeah, you know

47:02

what, I'm not in the wrong way. So I'm like, you know.

47:05

Because like what she's been through, like it's just,

47:07

that's what I mean. It's like, you never know

47:09

what someone's been through, so just be kind, innit?

47:11

And it's just like, keep it moving, yeah,

47:13

I love that. And you are enough. Yeah. That's

47:16

the message. Yeah. Oh Jess, what a joy to talk

47:18

to you today. A pleasure. I so love catching up

47:21

with you. Yeah, me too. I'm so

47:23

happy that you're doing so many brilliant things, and

47:25

you're feeling good, and you've made a brilliant decision.

47:27

So the album is amazing, and I love enough.

47:29

I just think it's such an important song for

47:31

women to hear. I think it is. It really

47:33

is. Yeah, I'm glad you did that. And thank

47:35

you for being on the podcast. Thanks for having

47:38

me. Oh

47:40

Jess, I love that chat so

47:42

much. It felt incredibly raw, and

47:44

real, and vulnerable. So

47:48

just thank you for being so thoughtful, and really

47:50

open. Do you know what, you never know if

47:53

you're gonna get a properly honest interview? I don't like

47:55

to call it an interview. It's a chat at the

47:57

end of the day, but you don't really know. where

48:00

you're going with the chat sometimes. But

48:02

Jess was so open-hearted and

48:04

I think talked about some pretty difficult

48:07

things and had some really

48:09

honest self-reflection. And also, I

48:11

think it's really good to look at

48:13

those moments where we get things a

48:15

bit wrong and to own it.

48:18

And Jess is properly doing that. And not

48:20

many people do. So like massive hats off

48:22

to Jess for that. Jess's

48:24

new album, Jess, is out on April

48:26

the 26th. If

48:29

you haven't already listened to the Glennon Doyle episode

48:31

of Happy Place, please do. It's really lovely.

48:33

And if you get as excited about connecting

48:35

over books as Jess and I did with

48:37

Glennon's, come and join us over

48:39

on the Happy Place Book Club. We're on

48:41

Instagram, at Happy Place Book Club. We're

48:44

on there as Happy Place 2 at Happy

48:46

Place official. So come have a chat. Massive

48:49

thanks again to Jess, to the

48:51

producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place

48:53

Studios and to you. Go

48:55

on, fuck up a bit. It's all okay. Thanks.

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