0:01

Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this

0:03

is Happy Place, the show that

0:05

combines evidence and empathy to help

0:08

us understand what's going on in

0:10

our minds. Today I'm

0:12

chatting to Kate Silberton. In the

0:14

wild, baboons, there is something called

0:16

a stress contagion. If a

0:18

baboon in the wild sees a leopard and

0:20

he starts beating his chest because his stress

0:23

response will be going, or

0:25

the other baboons, they might not have seen the leopard

0:27

but they'll pick up on his stress. So

0:29

this is why, if our children are

0:32

stressed, it can trigger our stress and then

0:34

there's stress and then there's... That's

0:36

why I'm feeling fizzy because I'm

0:38

embarrassed that I'm in the supermarket and

0:41

my kid's on the floor and everyone's

0:43

going to be looking at me and

0:45

so my baboon then starts going wild.

0:48

Kate is one of the UK's most

0:50

familiar faces as a journalist and broadcaster.

0:52

She's covered conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan,

0:54

interviewed the stars on red carpets and

0:57

was gorgeous on Strictly Come Dancing 2

0:59

but her life couldn't look

1:02

more different now. In

1:04

2020 she switched lanes and returned

1:06

to her academic roots in child

1:08

psychology. Now she's

1:10

a child therapist and has

1:12

written, oh my god, the

1:14

most phenomenal book

1:17

and I really mean that. You

1:19

know me, I read a hell

1:21

of a lot of books. This

1:23

one is just game changing. It's

1:26

called There's Still No Such Thing

1:28

as Naughty. Everything in

1:30

there is backed by neuroscience as well

1:32

as Kate's clinical experience. It

1:34

is a real insight into the inner

1:37

workings of our kids' minds. It's

1:39

about soothing their anxiety, regulating

1:42

their emotions, cultivating resilience but the

1:44

thing is, this chat is going

1:47

to be so useful for you

1:49

regardless of whether you're a parent

1:51

or not because all these things

1:54

also relate to our relationships with

1:56

our own parents and how we

1:58

look after ourselves. Hey,

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2:38

It's one of my favorite chats in a long time.

2:40

Here's the show. Hello Kate Silverton.

2:44

Hello,

2:46

Fionn.

2:54

How are you doing? I'm

3:03

like, as I just said before, the mics went on.

3:09

I'm chomping at the bit for this chat. There's

3:12

so much we need to talk about. I

3:14

don't even know where to start. But I

3:16

will start by saying our paths have previously

3:18

crossed in our past lives in another iteration

3:20

of who we were when you were an

3:23

esteemed journalist and newsreader, I was doing TV

3:25

presenting, and we've both gone off on these

3:28

wonderful tangents that I believe I'm speaking for you,

3:30

but are more fulfilling in many ways.

3:33

And more recently, we've both worked on the Princess

3:35

of Wales Shaping Us campaign, which has been

3:37

gorgeous. So

3:39

we're going to talk today

3:41

about childhood specifically and parenting

3:44

based around this incredible book of yours,

3:47

There's Still No Such Thing as Naughty,

3:49

which I would say is changing the

3:51

way I parent. Oh,

3:53

wow. Massively. Really? Yeah.

3:57

Can you share? Are you going to share a little bit? I

3:59

mean, through it. pepper the chat with

4:01

because there's so much in there but

4:03

what I appreciated was, I mean, not

4:05

only are you incredibly

4:07

knowledgeable and wise and have studied this

4:09

subject matter for a long time but

4:11

you're a parent and that's

4:13

the bit that I really appreciated because

4:15

there's no judgment in this book whatsoever.

4:17

It's really gently done. I think

4:19

it eases us all into, okay, I could change how

4:22

I do this without feeling shamed

4:24

or judged and also there's bits from your

4:27

husband in there which I love because this

4:29

is still quite a mum

4:31

based chat sadly wouldn't you say? What

4:34

the book you mean? No, I mean just

4:36

the subject of like parenting it feels still

4:39

mum heavy like it's on Mum Podcast and

4:41

it's in on Mum's net but it's like

4:43

this is a parenting thing. Yeah and also

4:45

a couples thing because we all know you

4:47

know if people are pulling in different directions

4:50

and that's for me why the

4:52

science was so important because I think

4:54

the men like the science. If they

4:56

have a woman telling them something about parents

4:58

and they go this is a little bit woo woo but when you

5:00

hit between the eyes with the science what I'm

5:02

finding is that the men are coming back going

5:04

I get it now, I didn't get it before,

5:07

this is a neurochemical wildfire not a tantrum,

5:09

I get it. So I mean

5:11

I'm just sitting here to be honest just catching my breath

5:13

because you are the first person to read

5:15

it. Honored, you, I mean

5:18

that I had a text from

5:20

Fern very early in the morning and I thought oh

5:22

she's got it and it was about four, well about

5:24

three or four days and you know you sit there

5:26

thinking and I had this text and I thought oh

5:29

and nobody else was awake but it

5:32

was just to have another mum another

5:34

parent who's going through it who's also

5:36

busy but to say what

5:38

you said. Well it's fucking brilliant

5:40

I mean it's absolutely, it's

5:43

incredible and it's you've balanced science

5:45

with real life really beautifully I

5:47

think that's why and I

5:49

remember you said but it's also in this book

5:52

Joe Wicks loved your first book and has just

5:54

said how much that's helped him and changed his

5:57

style of parenting and what's really interesting is also

5:59

someone like Joe. who's been very

6:01

honest about his own upbringing. It does

6:03

enable you, this subject matter and your book,

6:06

it enables you to look back at how

6:08

you were parented without any judgment again and

6:11

to have the awareness and then to look at

6:13

maybe the patterns that you've picked up on and

6:15

that you're passing down and maybe

6:17

the little bits of room

6:19

for change for the positive. So

6:22

it all feels doable, very doable.

6:24

Now one or maybe two questions

6:27

that most people will ask either

6:29

when starting working through a

6:31

book like this or talking about this

6:33

subject matter is how much

6:35

have I already messed my kids up and

6:38

is it too late? What would

6:40

your answer be to those two

6:42

questions? So funnily and I kick

6:44

off with this because

6:46

as you say these are the two questions

6:48

that we most often ask ourselves, the answer

6:50

to both is no. You haven't messed up.

6:52

There is no such thing as a perfect

6:54

parent just as there's no such thing as

6:56

naughty. So I always start from that premise.

6:58

It's really, really important and in fact it's

7:01

in the relational ruptures that we

7:04

find sort of

7:06

the strongest repair very often. So I always say

7:08

listen, we start here, pick the book up now,

7:10

doesn't matter. It's good to reflect. It's good to

7:12

think actually God I could have said or done

7:14

that differently but as you say without the judgment

7:17

it allows us to then go forward

7:19

and change. You know when we know better we

7:21

do better and what was the other

7:23

question? The other question was is it too late? It's never

7:25

ever, ever too late. You know this with all your work

7:27

that you do. I mean I know of 89 year olds

7:29

that heal

7:31

and rewire their brains through therapy so

7:34

it's absolutely never too late to

7:36

have the relationship that you want with your children.

7:38

Because I think that acts as

7:40

a bit of a dead end at times or

7:42

maybe like a hurdle that feels too big. You

7:44

just think well I've already messed up so badly

7:46

or I shouted at my kid or I did

7:48

this. It's just all awful and I just can't

7:50

even deal with it but actually what you're saying

7:53

is will you use the phrase rupture and repair?

7:55

Is that right? Repair. So talk

7:57

to us about that and how we might

7:59

approach that. those moments. Probably all of

8:01

us have got something

8:03

that we've said or done in the past

8:06

that we feel sort of ashamed about. We've

8:08

sort of shattered our kid about something or

8:10

we've used a shame tactic. We've all done

8:12

it out of absolute desperation. No one talks

8:15

about this stuff. We all pretend everything's fine

8:17

and we're coping just right. It's bloody hard.

8:19

We should probably caveat this whole chat with

8:21

parenting is so hard. Full stop. Bloody

8:24

hard. And this is what I say. So this

8:26

is why it's good for me to use examples

8:28

from my own parenting because it's

8:30

that thing off. So let's take two examples

8:33

then. One is let's say you lose your

8:35

rag and you shout and everyone hates themselves

8:37

afterwards. And I spoke about this actually

8:40

going to your children afterwards and

8:42

genuinely saying sweet heart. I'm so

8:44

sorry. It doesn't matter what

8:46

the incident was and I always talk about children.

8:48

They're going to do some mad stuff and we're not

8:51

going to understand it. It's our job to try

8:53

and interpret it, which is hopefully what the book

8:55

does. But actually it's up to us

8:57

to stay regulated. As we all know, impossible

8:59

to do. So what happens when you do

9:01

lose your rag? You can go to your

9:03

children and say sweetheart, I am so sorry.

9:05

I got that wrong and I didn't speak

9:07

to you as kindly as I should have

9:09

done. I'm really, really sorry. I shouldn't have

9:12

shouted. And I use lots of

9:14

examples in the book where I did that with Wilbur

9:16

when he was climbing the walls and I was tired,

9:18

solo parenting with my husband away. All

9:20

of us, if we haven't been taught, I mean,

9:23

were you taught emotional regulation? I said it wasn't.

9:26

So my mum shouldn't mind me

9:28

saying that, but absolutely not. It's

9:30

like if we're not taught it, if

9:33

we're not taught how to regulate our emotions,

9:35

then so that's the work. So what we're

9:37

doing in that moment is saying to our

9:39

children, I got that wrong. I shouldn't have

9:41

shouted because we're asking them not to shout,

9:43

aren't we? So we are then modelling the

9:45

behaviour that we want to see. So in

9:47

the apology, they're going, okay, they're not taking

9:50

it on themselves. Like I'm bad because mummy

9:52

must hate me because she's shouting at me,

9:54

which is what the story children can tell

9:56

themselves. But actually, we're just saying I got

9:58

that wrong. And so we're modeling lots

10:00

of brilliant stuff how to say sorry

10:02

have to be authentic when we say

10:04

sorry and actually how we're still learning

10:06

sometimes I talk to children in the

10:08

therapy room sometimes they'll say actually I

10:10

realized now that it's not that my

10:12

my mum wasn't taught this so and

10:15

there's a beautiful sort of change that can happen

10:17

when you get that realization. A little

10:20

example just this week World

10:23

Book Day Wilbur hates dressing up. Yeah

10:25

my kids hate dressing up. Not with

10:27

it so I'm always it is I

10:29

put something on Instagram just

10:31

yesterday spot this whole thing because it's

10:33

actually some children don't like it. Yeah

10:35

anyway so he said I'm gonna take your

10:37

book because I'm in that I was like

10:39

fantastic great initiative just go for

10:41

it. Anyway and then I do the

10:43

classic things I was slightly embarrassed about it thinking oh

10:46

god is that a bit show off and tell you

10:48

know that's not show and

10:50

tell show off and tell. Oh god

10:52

so then I then said something and I

10:54

said oh will your teacher say

10:56

that you've been naughty and as soon as I

10:58

said it I thought what the heck

11:01

it was my embarrassment and my feeling

11:03

awkward about him taking the book in

11:06

all this projection that comes out and a

11:08

little look flashed across his face and

11:10

it was busy breakfast and I didn't get a chance.

11:12

Anyway later that day just at night time

11:14

we were in bed and I just said well I

11:16

said I really noticed earlier that

11:19

I said the wrong thing I am so

11:21

sorry I'm really sorry I shouldn't have said

11:23

that I didn't mean that at all and

11:25

it was a silly thing that mummy said

11:28

and he just reached across and hugged me

11:30

so tightly and it

11:32

was that moment of thank you for

11:35

getting it for noticing and just thank you

11:38

and that's it it's not that we're always

11:40

gonna get things right I don't get things

11:42

right and I've written a bloody book on

11:44

it yeah it's impossible so

11:47

give ourselves a break trust that that's

11:49

okay we only have to be as

11:51

the great Donald Winnicott said the psychoanalyst

11:54

we only have to be good enough the

11:56

the aim of this book is really to help us

11:58

all be good enough yes And I

12:01

love that because there is so much

12:03

pressure. We're in this really interesting time

12:05

where if you look at

12:07

how our parents were parented, it was

12:09

pretty Victorian. I mean, I've used my

12:11

mum as an example many times and she's been on the podcast.

12:14

I never feel like I'm sort of saying

12:16

the thing that I shouldn't too much because

12:18

she said it herself. But her mum had

12:20

her incredibly young, wasn't massively equipped. She was

12:22

kind of trauma from the war. She'd been,

12:25

my dad had been evacuated. So my mum grew up

12:27

in a bit of a kind of whirlwind. And

12:29

then my mum was working three jobs and

12:32

knackered and didn't always get it right.

12:34

So we're in this place and

12:36

we're going, right. We're not saying, and we're gonna fix

12:38

it all and be perfect. But I think we've got

12:40

maybe a bit more space, the luxury of time to

12:42

go, wow, I can see

12:45

that's my particular lineage. Everyone will have

12:47

a different story. But we've perhaps now

12:49

got the connection and

12:51

the resources and the books and social media,

12:53

et cetera, to go, right. We

12:56

could probably make some good change here.

12:58

But also we've got this strange pressure

13:00

from looking at social media and seeing

13:02

people just having a jolly great time

13:04

in their matching outfits on their gorgeous

13:06

holiday. And the kids are all smiling,

13:08

being well behaved. And we're using that

13:11

as some sort of comparison as to

13:13

how we're living life. So it feels

13:15

like a bit of a pressure cooker

13:17

in terms of where parents are

13:19

today. And we haven't even, and we'll talk

13:21

about this later, got onto screens and all

13:24

of that stuff, which we will talk about.

13:26

But it feels like a very interesting time

13:28

for us to have that awareness and

13:31

make good change. And I love that you

13:33

started with this notion of apology because it's

13:35

definitely been one of the things, and I've got so

13:38

many things drastically wrong. And sometimes I

13:40

have sleepless nights about wishing

13:43

I'd done things differently when I first had Rex and all

13:45

sorts of things. I was going through stuff then. But

13:47

the one thing I've always been really on it

13:50

with is saying sorry. And

13:52

even like yesterday, Rex is pre-teen, he's

13:55

11, there's a lot going on hormonally. He

13:57

came back from school. He

13:59

was not in a great... He didn't talk to me

14:01

for about two hours and I was kind of

14:03

going, buddy, what's up? What's going

14:05

on? And he was

14:07

being sort of quite dismissive and didn't want me around.

14:09

So I left him to it. And

14:11

then about, yeah, it was probably two hours later,

14:14

he came and he apologized. And I thought, if

14:17

I've done one good thing, it's that I've

14:19

taught the kids. It's really a lovely

14:21

thing and it's not necessarily a nerve wracking thing. To

14:23

say I've got it wrong, I'm sorry. And I'm really

14:25

glad of that. Really glad.

14:28

And it's a tiny change, but it's so

14:30

impactful. Well, it is. And can you imagine

14:32

what he's going to be like when he's in a relationship, in a partnership

14:34

later on, just to be able to, we don't have

14:36

all the two, three day socks that we can end

14:38

up in, just to be able to go, I had

14:41

some time out and actually now I'm going to

14:43

say sorry. And coming back, it gets beautiful, by

14:45

the way, I mean, coming back to the cycle

14:48

as well, I see it as really

14:50

for parents that we're all doing our best

14:52

in this period so that our children can

14:54

then do better. So we

14:56

can kind of go, okay, our parents did this, they

14:58

were limited here, they were doing their best. We've

15:01

learned from that. And then I think for me,

15:03

the science is what excites me, the neuroscience, the

15:05

neurobiology, because that's, I

15:08

mean, nothing is ever definitive, but I think it opens

15:10

up a whole world of understanding when it

15:12

comes to behaviour and our own behaviour as

15:14

well as our children. So all

15:17

of that combined, but ultimately it's just as you've described,

15:19

it's about being human. It's

15:21

about relationships. Yeah. Talking

15:24

about that sort of generational dynamic,

15:26

the interesting thing is parents

15:29

today that are trying a different

15:31

tact might be judged

15:34

by an older generation in a way

15:36

that says, this

15:38

is too soft. What you're doing is not,

15:41

we need to be more disciplined about

15:43

things here and authoritarian. How

15:46

would you tackle that conversation? Because I think

15:48

many parents out there that are trying to

15:50

bring their kids up and they're using maybe

15:52

could be called a gentler approach or empathetic

15:54

or we'll get onto the nervous system in

15:56

a bit, but they're sort of looking at

15:58

that rather than. got this

16:00

wrong, go to your room now, or

16:02

sit on the naughty step. When there's

16:04

a grandparent or an older generation involved

16:06

in that dynamic, it can be complicated

16:08

because they can say what you're doing

16:10

is soft and it doesn't work. Yeah,

16:13

so I wrote

16:16

this book having been volunteering with the

16:18

Anna Freud Center, which is another children's

16:20

mental health charity, and was working with

16:22

a lot of parents there, and

16:24

one mum who had

16:26

experienced pretty traumatic time in

16:29

childhood, and had been repeating

16:31

that with her son, and

16:33

very physically what

16:36

we would call abusive, but obviously she's grown up with it

16:38

and she didn't know any better. She'd

16:41

been through the Anna Freud school, she'd learned

16:43

everything and having had the science, and she

16:45

literally wagged her finger at me and she

16:47

said, Kate, you need to write about this,

16:50

because that's the only way that I can

16:52

tell my mum and the grandparents that

16:55

they're wrong. That's the only way. And

16:58

it was her, it was this sort of pleading, but

17:00

actually just going, you've got to do this, you've got

17:02

to make this science accessible, because she said, I now

17:04

get it, but I could only be strong enough to

17:06

say you are not going to put my boy under

17:08

the stairs, you are not going to do that to

17:10

him, what you did to me, because

17:12

I now know how damaging that is.

17:15

So I would always say, really, one,

17:18

we can approach it with compassion. There's

17:20

a lot of fear that if I

17:22

don't control by fear, then my children

17:24

are going to grow up controlling me.

17:27

And that's absolutely not the case. Everything

17:30

that I talk about is evidence based. And

17:32

that's really important to say. But

17:35

also, to be gentle with people when

17:37

they do this, this is the way it's always

17:39

been done, and discipline this and discipline that. And

17:41

you think, well, actually, discipline comes from the word

17:43

disciple, which means to teach

17:45

and to follow. Now, children aren't going to follow

17:47

us if they're always in fear, they might be

17:49

compliant, but that's a different thing. So you

17:51

either raise children who are overly

17:53

compliant, not what we want in life, not

17:56

with the world and all its problems at the moment, we

17:58

don't want just pure compliance, we want to be in fear. children

18:00

who are going to think for themselves and

18:02

problem-solve and we want our children

18:04

to sort of collaborate and work with us. It doesn't

18:06

mean that we don't say no

18:09

to our children. It doesn't mean that

18:11

we don't boundary behaviour. When I'm in

18:13

the therapy room I invite

18:15

some pretty big behaviour. Now if I

18:18

didn't boundary and work with that child

18:21

to ensure I could end up getting

18:23

hurt that's not okay.

18:25

So I'm helping children to learn how to

18:28

bring all their emotions and all their anger

18:30

if they have it but we can still

18:32

work within boundaries. I do the same with

18:34

my children. My children if they might want

18:36

something that doesn't mean they get it. So

18:38

it's not gentle parenting that oh darling yes

18:40

you can have that. Of course it's not.

18:43

That's just as damaging for children to just

18:45

not have boundaries because it

18:47

can feel for children without boundaries if there's no

18:50

structure that it can

18:52

feel like they're going to fall off the

18:54

end of the world. So that's not that's

18:56

quite a scary place. So we need to

18:58

meet in the middle but the science really

19:00

shows us how. Yeah so let's get let's

19:03

get right down to basics. So the word

19:05

naughty such an interesting word when you dive

19:07

into it because the general consensus

19:09

I guess would be that it's when a kid

19:11

is not doing what you want them to do.

19:14

If we're just cutting to the chase here and

19:16

we have felt maybe as parents

19:19

that it's our job to go no you will do

19:21

what I've asked you to do and actually what you're

19:23

saying is when a kid is being naughty

19:26

quote-unquote it's actually it's actually to do

19:28

with their nervous system. So talk to

19:30

me about this and why a kid

19:32

might be it could be having a

19:34

tantrum shouting being defiant

19:36

refusing to do what you've asked them

19:38

to do. How does that relate

19:40

to the nervous system? Sure so

19:43

the nervous system. Alright so every

19:45

animal has a defence response or

19:47

a small number of defence responses that

19:50

we've come to know is fight flight

19:52

freeze flop faint and there is fawn

19:54

as well and every

19:56

animal has them. So if I am if we

19:59

were sitting in here now and suddenly somebody

20:01

came banging on the door, our

20:04

nervous system would immediately fire

20:06

up and go into one

20:08

of those defence responses. Can we fight?

20:10

Can we flee? You know, or are we just going

20:12

to sort of play dead? So our

20:15

nervous system would get triggered and

20:17

a whole neurochemical response happens. Now

20:19

I explain this in the book

20:22

that, and my brain

20:24

thinks in a certain way, which is why

20:26

I use this very visual analogy of these

20:28

three animals in a tree. So we have

20:31

a little lizard and that represents our brain

20:33

stem cerebellum diencephalon and it's connected

20:35

to our nervous system. So the first thing

20:37

that happens is even as we're sitting here

20:39

now, both of our nervous systems are like

20:41

just tuning into each other in the environment.

20:43

If there was a loud noise, your nervous

20:45

system would immediately go up. And I imagine

20:47

that these messages go up to the little

20:50

lizard. He then goes, oh, there could be

20:52

an emergency. And then I imagine him running

20:54

up and this is actually what happens in

20:56

the brain, but he runs up the baobab

20:58

tree, which is represented in my book. That's

21:00

the brain and tugs on the

21:03

baboon's tail. The baboon is the limbic system.

21:05

So this happens in a split second. If

21:07

your nervous system goes, I don't like that,

21:10

it runs up, the message comes to the

21:12

lizard, the lizard runs up, the baboon then

21:14

hits the amygdala, which we all now know about

21:16

the amygdala, the brain's fear and

21:18

processing, emotions processing center. And

21:22

that's when you get this

21:24

big neurochemical response that makes

21:26

me and makes our children

21:28

act in one of those ways. Fight,

21:31

flight, freeze or

21:33

faint. You know, you get children sort of just

21:36

dropping to the floor, flop. Always in

21:38

the worst places. Always in like the middle of

21:40

a supermarket. And it's probably because

21:42

it's in the middle of the supermarket, so

21:44

busy, so noisy. So

21:47

we've got this ability. Now, if something happened now

21:49

and you and I would immediately process and think,

21:51

right, actually, maybe that's just the sound man coming

21:53

in or whatever, we quickly would be able to

21:55

regulate and bring ourselves back, but we'd still have

21:57

a bit of a jolt. children's

22:00

brains are not fully developed. So the regulatory

22:02

part of the brain, the bit that I

22:04

call the wise owl that regulates and sort

22:06

of says to the baboon and lizards, it's

22:09

okay, it's just owl coming in from outside,

22:11

it's all right. You know, they don't have

22:13

that fully developed just yet. So when their

22:15

nervous system gets triggered, and it can get

22:17

triggered by physical events like going in for

22:20

World Book Day and maybe I'm going to

22:22

get laughed at or a thought, you know,

22:24

and if our children's nervous system gets

22:27

triggered, it can get triggered

22:29

by physical events. So a loud

22:31

bang in the middle of the night, or

22:34

the thought of something threatening going

22:36

into World Book Day and wearing

22:38

something that someone then laughs at

22:41

them, because our brain hasn't evolved

22:43

to detect between physical threat and

22:45

emotional threat. So that's why

22:48

our thoughts can feel as threatening and why

22:50

we have anxiety. So any of that baboon

22:52

or lizard behaviour is what we have then

22:54

labeled naughty. You're not doing, I just need

22:56

you out the door in your World Book

22:58

Day outfit, because you're delaying my day, just

23:00

get out there. And actually, their nervous system

23:02

is going, shit, this is dangerous.

23:04

This is scary. And actually, our job is

23:06

to just help them regulate their

23:08

nervous system so they can learn to do

23:11

it better as adults. And what I liked

23:13

about the analogy of the lizard baboon and

23:15

owl is it isn't just something we're putting

23:17

on the kids, like that's what's going on in your

23:19

brain. It's also the same for us. And you talk

23:21

about leaving a stressful situation with

23:23

your kids safely outside of a room, putting

23:25

your hands over your eyes and deep breathing

23:28

to connect with your wise owl and to

23:30

go come on white owl, don't let the

23:32

baboon win. Because we all have it, you

23:34

know, that's when we want to shout and

23:36

go, oh, just stop doing what you're doing

23:38

or whatever. But actually, that's not going to

23:40

help them because then they're not learning how

23:42

to regulate their nervous system. It's so obvious,

23:44

but we're so messed up. And we just

23:46

hope we've just lost sight of

23:48

this altogether. And that's why I think for

23:50

me the visual because it helps me. Yeah,

23:53

it helps me massively, that one. Yeah. And

23:55

if you think so, I

23:57

talk to a lot of different colleagues around the world and one of

23:59

them is Dr. of Bruce Parry, who's amazing. He's

24:01

sort of like my God, when it comes to

24:03

neuroscience. And I spoke to him and he said,

24:05

well, Kate, you're absolutely right. Because in

24:07

the wild, baboons, there is something called

24:09

a stress contagion. So if a baboon

24:11

in the wild sees a leopard,

24:14

and he starts beating his chest, because his,

24:16

you know, stress response will be going, or

24:18

the other baboons, they might not have seen the leopard,

24:20

but they'll pick up on his stress. So

24:23

this is why if our children are

24:25

stressed, it can trigger our

24:27

stress, and then they're stressed. And then they're,

24:29

but in real life, you just

24:31

think of it as sort of stress contagion. You

24:34

think that's why I'm feeling fizzy, because I'm

24:36

embarrassed that I'm in the supermarket and my kids

24:38

on the floor and everyone's going to be looking

24:40

at me. And so my baboon then starts going

24:43

wild. And then we're all in a mess. Yeah,

24:45

the other really helpful method that you talk about,

24:47

and I'm pretty sure that you've talked about this

24:49

in your other book is SAS. Can you talk

24:51

to us about this? Because this is something again,

24:53

sometimes I forget to put it into practice. I'm

24:55

like, what did Kate say? SAS, do the

24:57

thing. And it is so helpful for

25:00

you as a parent, and for your

25:02

kid to again, have the awareness

25:04

of what's going on to talk us through that process.

25:06

Yeah. So this sort of came from my husband, who's

25:08

a Royal Marines commando, and sometimes

25:11

has his own difficulties with dysregulation, as

25:13

he explains in the book. So I

25:15

just thought, okay, SAS, because

25:17

what we want to do, if your child

25:20

is spinning out, you know, World

25:22

Book Day, whatever it might be, the immediate trigger

25:24

for us is, I've got work to do,

25:26

I've got to get on, and then we all in that

25:28

stressful situation. SAS is essentially,

25:30

s say what you see.

25:32

Yeah. You are then

25:35

telling your child, you're showing them

25:37

that you see that they're in distress.

25:39

So you would say, Rex, you're

25:41

upset. Is it that simple? You can, yes.

25:43

So we're that because that can say if

25:46

we're saying you're upset, we're sounding like we're

25:48

telling them what they're feeling. So we're sort

25:50

of, it's said in a way that's like,

25:52

you are really mad, but it's kind of

25:54

a slight question to it. But yes, because

25:57

I'm thinking for older children, for younger

25:59

children, absolutely. Absolutely. You are so mad right

26:01

now. You are showing mummy how mad you

26:03

are. Look at you stomping your feet. I

26:05

can see you. Yes, you are showing me.

26:07

They might turn round and go, I'm

26:10

not. I'm just hungry. You go, oh,

26:12

mummy got that wrong. So we're not

26:14

going to impose what we're saying. What

26:16

we see. Yeah. We're saying what we

26:18

see. I'm seeing you stomping your feet.

26:20

I'm seeing you really curling up your

26:22

nose at me right now. I'm seeing

26:24

you look really mad. So we're sort

26:26

of showing them. I'm trying to get

26:28

what you're feeling. We're kind of inviting

26:30

them to tell us, yes, and I'm

26:32

really cross that you're pushing me out the door, mummy,

26:35

because whatever it might be. So you are, I

26:37

can see you're so mad right now, darling. You're

26:39

curling your nose up at me. A

26:41

is acknowledge. This

26:44

feels really hard. I can see you're

26:46

having a really, really tough time and

26:48

mummy's seeing and mummy wants to help.

26:50

So we're really acknowledging in this acknowledgement.

26:52

It's sort of the baboon takes on

26:54

the limbic system. He's like, hmm, her

26:56

tonus. So we meet them where their

26:59

energy is at first of all, because

27:01

children, if we're not sort of

27:03

coming up and meeting them at you are so cross. If

27:05

I just say, you look really

27:07

cross. What's

27:10

that going to do? Fuck all.

27:12

Yeah. And piss them off.

27:14

Exactly. So you've got to

27:16

go in. You've got to accuse them. So

27:18

you've got it. I liken it to like

27:20

a wave of energy. So you've got to

27:22

come up. You've got to meet your child.

27:24

You are so close. You are showing me

27:26

what you're, you know, so you go, you

27:28

do that. And then the acknowledgement of how

27:30

hard this must be right now. I can

27:32

see sweetheart. You really, really wanted the cereal

27:34

box. And mummy said, no, I

27:37

get it. Sweetheart. It's really, really hard.

27:39

And you're going into then your, and

27:41

then with your tone, you're bringing them

27:43

back back down with a lot more

27:45

compassion. So you meet them up here and

27:47

then you're bringing it in. I liken it

27:49

to like a surfer on a wave and

27:51

the waves massive and loads of energy. And

27:53

we want to meet them up there and

27:55

then we want to bring them back into

27:57

shore. So that's when we go into soothe

27:59

and we kind of go. come sweetheart, do you want to

28:01

come and sit with mummy? I know, I

28:03

get it, it's really hot, come on, I'll

28:05

sit next to you. So wherever we are,

28:07

I mean, there's been times when I've sat

28:09

down in the mud next to my kids

28:11

or in the supermarket, because I'm basically saying

28:13

you're basically, they're overwhelmed right now and I

28:15

get it. I might not always know why,

28:18

but I can meet them and

28:20

bring them down because it's my job to

28:22

then bring that in and that's soothing. So

28:24

SAS, say what you see and you can

28:26

describe it with teenagers, we want to just

28:28

be a bit more mindful because they don't like to

28:31

be told. Yeah. That's why.

28:33

Acknowledge the upset, you know, what's going

28:35

on in that moment. It's really noisy

28:37

in the supermarket, whatever it might be.

28:40

And then soothe, I get it sweetheart

28:42

and I'm sorry, this is really hard.

28:44

We're not going to give in if

28:46

it's over a cereal box or whatever,

28:49

but we can have our compassion with

28:51

how they're feeling. So when children feel

28:53

seen and heard, that's where

28:55

we start to have mental health, future

28:57

mental health, because they feel seen, heard

28:59

and understood. Yeah. I mean, this is

29:01

the crux of it. What we want

29:03

to do is have a healthier society

29:05

mental health wise in the future. And

29:07

the only way that we've got any

29:09

control of it, because there's so much

29:11

we don't have control over, what's going

29:13

on globally, politically, with screen policy

29:15

and phones and the digital world. The only

29:17

thing we can do is change how we're

29:20

parenting. And this feels, you make

29:22

a really interesting point in the book by saying,

29:24

and we should probably sort of bracket

29:27

the whole chat with this, is that if

29:29

we're going to change the mental health of

29:31

kids, it's not about changing them, it's changing

29:33

the environment they're in, which has been created

29:35

by adults. This is our job

29:38

to help them. And what's really interesting looking

29:40

at even that SAS, which I think is

29:42

so brilliant, because it's catchy, we can remember

29:44

it, it's really practical. The soothing bit, you

29:46

also talk about even like holding them and

29:49

rocking them, like making it a real physical

29:51

endeavor is that actually that's so helpful for

29:53

us as adults, especially if we haven't had

29:55

that model to us, that we can have

29:57

that awareness about what we're flipping out. We

30:00

can go, wait, let me see what I'm

30:02

doing here, right? I'm freaking out. Oh God,

30:04

why? And then have empathy for yourself, self-compassion.

30:07

This is helping everyone, but we just haven't

30:09

been taught how to do it. And I

30:11

think one of the most frustrating things I've

30:13

found about parenting is when you get pregnant,

30:15

everyone's like, this is what you need in

30:17

your hospital bag, and this is how you

30:19

swaddle a baby. And if you breastfeed, this

30:21

is what you need to learn. No one

30:23

tells you any of this stuff. No

30:26

one tells you how to parent. You're

30:28

expected to know. And then you

30:30

don't realize that you're struggling until you're in the

30:32

trenches and go, I don't know

30:34

what I'm doing, and this is too much.

30:37

And actually, I'm not enjoying a lot of

30:39

it, and it feels horrible. So these are

30:41

the basics we haven't been taught that we

30:43

need to know. And me reading

30:45

this book, some of it was so eye-opening, like,

30:48

I didn't know that. And it's so obvious,

30:50

but we don't know. We don't know

30:53

this stuff. So there's two

30:55

things. One is that absolutely

30:57

that, if we want,

30:59

for me, mental health comes from where we

31:01

can manage our stress and regulate our emotions.

31:04

It's that simple. And in

31:06

fact, there's another one of my

31:08

amazing sort of mentors, as it

31:10

were, but Dr. Alan Shaw, and

31:12

he says that emotional regulation should

31:14

be the whole of child development.

31:17

So forget, I mean, I quote an academic study

31:20

in there, 2013 from

31:22

the London School of Economics, that shows that

31:24

the biggest and best predictor of an adult's

31:27

successful, as in happy,

31:29

successful life, is

31:31

actually not academics, but in emotional regulation. Can I

31:33

manage my emotions? Can I say how I'm feeling?

31:35

Can I cope with how I'm feeling? We want

31:37

our children to experience all the highs and lows.

31:40

It's not about being happy the whole time. We

31:42

all know that, but it's about being able to

31:44

sit in the lows. And our children can only

31:46

do that when they've had someone to sit

31:48

alongside them first. That's our job. But as

31:51

you say, unless we've been taught that, how

31:53

do we do it? But this is where

31:55

it comes in, and what I love about

31:57

bringing in our ancestors.

32:00

because as I so often say to parents, we

32:02

haven't always parented this way. And

32:05

it's really easy to think, I'm getting it wrong,

32:07

why is this so hard? And

32:09

actually it's so hard because we're not parenting in

32:11

the way that we're meant to be parenting, which

32:13

is in community. Yes. It takes

32:16

a village to raise a child. Well, that's how

32:18

our ancestors, and not that long ago, our ancestors,

32:20

we would have had at least five

32:23

adults and

32:25

then adolescents to every one child, at least that.

32:28

So our children would have all been playing together

32:30

out here, you and I would have been sitting,

32:32

we'd have had the matriarch sitting here, and she

32:34

would have had, and we'd go to her if

32:37

there was a problem, she would be teaching us

32:39

and passing down the wisdoms. We

32:41

don't get that anymore. We live in a nuclear family.

32:44

And I trace it back in the book, going

32:46

into a bit of the academic stuff, is the

32:48

Industrial Revolution changed all of that. So

32:50

it's easy to forget that we

32:52

can sort of blame ourselves and think

32:55

our children are disordered or naughty. And

32:57

actually what we're just seeing is that

32:59

we're living very differently to

33:01

the way that I certainly think from all

33:03

my research is how we're meant to

33:06

live as human beings. We're social beings,

33:08

we're meant to live in community. Yeah,

33:10

we're moving away from this humanness. It's

33:12

like, I loved reading Gabo Mate's last

33:14

book, The Myth of Normal, which just

33:16

sort of talks around that

33:18

exact subject of no shit

33:20

that we're all struggling and having

33:23

a tough time mentally. We're living

33:25

in the most absurd environment with

33:27

huge expectation and huge pressure without

33:30

community and without that help

33:32

that's forgiven, without you going, oh God,

33:34

I hate to ask, but do you mind if,

33:37

like, that's the feeling now, like, is it okay

33:39

if, and I can't do the school running, could

33:41

you maybe help out? And everything feels sort of

33:43

fractured and treacherous and ah, whereas before it was

33:45

like, let's all, we're all in this together. Let's

33:47

help each other out. And we've lost that. I

33:49

mean, we can't solve that

33:52

one in this hour long episode of how

33:54

we get community back, but it's certainly something

33:56

for us to mull over. And it's certainly

33:58

something that I think can alleviate. some of

34:00

that pressure that we feel whether we're,

34:02

you know, in a couple or single parent

34:04

has all of that burden on their shoulders

34:07

to try and do all of this without

34:09

that support network. It's so much to ask

34:11

of people. Ryan

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month. Slows. mintmobile.com. Another

34:49

way that we might

34:51

struggle is when our

34:53

kids are expressing anger. You talk about

34:56

how anger is hugely misunderstood in the

34:58

book. Tell us why. So

35:00

I always say it's not anger that

35:03

we should be afraid of. It's if

35:05

our children are growing up

35:08

and not taught how to express it

35:10

safely. So anger

35:13

is a valid emotion. Anger

35:15

tells us we feel a sense of

35:17

injustice that we have been wronged and

35:20

it galvanizes us to act. What

35:24

we want children to be able

35:26

to do is experience anger. I

35:28

feel wronged. Someone has infringed a

35:30

boundary, either physically or verbally. They've

35:32

done something wrong. And

35:35

then I can say no very

35:38

strongly. I can put my boundary up to

35:40

say no, that's not okay. That's not

35:43

acceptable. I feel really angry about that.

35:45

I feel really cross about that. And

35:47

then you can interrogate it. But we have to be

35:50

able for our children. They can't just get to that

35:52

point, especially not at two and

35:54

even at 20, because their

35:56

brains still haven't finished their development.

35:58

So all emotions. When I'm in the

36:01

therapy room and I say to children, all our

36:03

emotions are valid and they are all welcome. And

36:06

children look at me with their eyes wide and they

36:08

say, what even anger? And I'm like, yes, especially anger.

36:10

And I talk about like having a tea party and

36:12

we bring all our emotions in. And because what we

36:14

want to do is for our children to be able

36:16

to say, I felt really upset about that. I felt

36:19

really, they need to know what is okay. As

36:22

much as we want them to understand what

36:24

is and isn't acceptable behavior, they need to

36:26

know what's acceptable behavior from adults as well.

36:29

Even from other people. So in the playground, they

36:31

need to be able to, or siblings, you know,

36:33

siblings, there's a lot of sibling bullying that is

36:35

fueling the bullying epidemic that we

36:38

sort of dismiss as, oh, it's just,

36:40

well, actually, you know, I want siblings

36:42

to be able to, I'm holding my palm out here

36:44

at age, you know, to say, no, that's not okay.

36:47

So what my job as a

36:49

therapist and as a parent is for my

36:51

children, I want them to experience anger, but

36:54

then I want them to express it safely. And

36:56

how do you do that? Because anger is also

36:58

quite physical. So how do we let them let

37:01

off, and, you know, this is all safe for

37:03

adults, all people that, you know, people that don't

37:05

even have kids, you know, you just want to

37:07

express anger in a healthy way and we haven't

37:09

been taught how. No. So

37:11

let's look, let's take the toddler that we all

37:13

know that the toddlers are brilliant because they can

37:15

teach us so much and they stand there and

37:17

they stomp their feet and they get their feet

37:20

to the floor. They're doing this. That is fight

37:22

flight. So if I feel really overwhelmed that,

37:24

you know, someone's done something that another,

37:26

maybe someone's taken my toy, which for

37:28

children can feel very, you know, that

37:30

they are possessive at that age. So

37:33

someone's, or someone's come and knock me over the head

37:35

at nursery with a wooden block or something. I'm going

37:37

to immediately go into fight flight. I'm going to experience

37:39

anger. How do I express that? If I'm a toddler,

37:41

I'm going to, you know, when we're in fight flight,

37:44

we can feel it in our fingers, in our toes.

37:46

We either want to run or we want to fight

37:48

and we might turn around and lamp the other child.

37:51

We've all seen it happen. So then what we

37:53

want to do is graduate from that to

37:55

children being able to. So, and I talk,

37:57

I share lots of exercises in the back.

38:00

book, we can't expect children

38:02

not to go into fight flight because

38:04

that is a natural evolutionary response

38:07

and we can't expect them not to go immediately

38:10

into sort of gripping the fist if they're angry.

38:12

What we want to do is get that energy,

38:14

the stress energy and we want to release it

38:16

safely. So in my first book

38:18

I talk about pillow power and I use

38:21

it again here that for my children so

38:23

my and I think there's anecdotally

38:25

this is not a scientific research this

38:27

is my anecdotal observations but a lot

38:29

of boys seven to nine especially after

38:31

what we've been through the

38:33

past few years are experiencing a lot of anger

38:36

so what we want to do and I do

38:38

talk everyone through how to do it step by

38:40

step in the book but it can ultimately involve

38:42

picking up a pillow you can't hit me you

38:45

can't hit me you can hit the

38:47

pillow so you're doing it with

38:49

your child you are allowing them to release

38:52

their anger but they're doing it on the

38:54

pillow now I'm not we don't stop there it's

38:56

not like we're gonna go everyone's got to go

38:58

around you to see people in the street punch

39:00

you know take their punch bag

39:02

to work day but what we're saying is

39:04

your anger is valid I see it I

39:07

see you and I'm gonna acknowledge it and

39:09

I'm gonna allow you and it's gonna come

39:11

up because actually this stress response needs to

39:13

be released yeah it's a physiological this is

39:15

where the neurobiology comes in it needs a

39:18

release animals in the wild if

39:20

they're chased down by a lion they need to

39:22

escape well if our children can't escape

39:24

and if they're told button-up son you

39:26

can't you know stop moving stop punching

39:28

stop doing whatever they're not going to

39:30

learn how to exercise that and that's

39:32

when the stress response can chronic you

39:34

know we can get chronic stress so

39:36

we've got pillow power I

39:39

also stand side by sides with some of

39:41

my teen clients and we'll stand side by

39:43

side and let's say they might be being

39:45

bullied and I will then get them to

39:47

throw punches we do it together you will

39:50

not do that or whatever words

39:53

they want to say so they get to

39:55

say it they really get to say what

39:57

they're feeling they get to throw the punch

39:59

obviously I always caveating we

40:01

do not hit or hurt

40:03

others. I don't get hit or

40:05

hurt in the therapy room and my children don't

40:08

hit or hurt me but actually that's throwing

40:10

the punch then what we want to do is

40:12

to graduate and it does take time but this

40:14

is where I want parents to really feel

40:16

confident that they are far more powerful than they

40:19

know in this regard in helping their children to

40:21

release anger safely, a talk in the book

40:23

about finding a safe space that you name that

40:25

you can go together and then

40:27

we start focusing on once children have

40:30

permission to release then it's

40:32

about getting that what was it you were

40:34

so angry about and that's where the punching

40:36

and you use your words because then you

40:38

can start saying you will not do that

40:40

and instead of punching somebody you hold your

40:42

hand up with your palm up saying you

40:44

are not going to bully me you are

40:46

not going to do that to me and

40:49

I can use my voice really strongly because

40:51

I've practiced it before so

40:53

we're graduating does that all make

40:55

sense? I mean I'm hugely hugely

40:57

I think it's one of

40:59

the things especially with toddlers that you just feel

41:01

so ill-equipped to deal with that they're so physical

41:03

obviously because they can't articulate how they're feeling a lot of

41:06

the time as well so everything is so physical whether you're

41:08

trying to get them in a car seat and they're like

41:10

planking or whatever it is you just feel like I don't

41:12

know how to deal with this but actually to know they're

41:15

not a naughty kid you haven't raised

41:17

them incorrectly that they're trying to express

41:20

this kind of physical frustration it's

41:22

showing them how to do it safely I think I wish

41:24

that's something that I'd known especially with Rex because he's a

41:26

boy and there is a lot of that kind of physicality

41:28

I wish I'd known all of this when he was tiny

41:30

and I could have been a bit more

41:33

on it with that we've used the pillow power thing

41:35

since with him and honey she

41:37

probably needs it a bit less but they

41:40

love it like it's fun for them because they

41:42

just like they'll stomp on the pillow and like

41:44

shove it on the floor I'm like just go

41:47

for it like let it out and it's brilliant

41:49

the other very tricky motion this is one that

41:51

I still feel like I don't know how to

41:53

cope with at all is fear and anxiety both

41:56

my kids are pretty anxious in

41:58

the night in the dark We've got

42:00

a night light, but they still often at 8 and

42:02

11 will wake in the night want to get in

42:05

bed with us Or I'll get in bed with one

42:07

of them, and that's when I know my little internal

42:11

shame button gets pressed and I'm like oh my god

42:13

I've so failed how my kids still waking in the

42:15

night and I put so I know you get the

42:17

other parents going My kids have slept

42:19

through since they were one day old and you're like oh

42:22

my god My little like actual big kids,

42:24

and they're still not sleeping properly, and I

42:26

know it's driven by anxiety

42:29

They they are they're nervous in the night

42:32

Which is normal let me just

42:34

tell you then that's normal my son will still

42:36

get up and run in so let's Unpick this

42:38

because this is a really cuz I think with

42:41

a lot of kids who are getting up in

42:43

the night and parents are obviously Beating themselves up

42:45

for absolutely no, so let's think back. We've got

42:47

a little lizard okay, so in my analogy He

42:49

sits at the bottom of the bear babb tree, and

42:52

so he's the one that's most exposed

42:54

and alone That's our nervous system our

42:56

nervous system is always on so even

42:59

in the night our children's nervous system

43:01

is looking around these It's checking our

43:03

internal environment. Am I hungry do I

43:05

need a wee you know whatever? And

43:08

also anything it's also on checking so

43:10

that little lizard rarely sleeps right if

43:13

at all So he's we

43:15

can imagine him sat down at the bottom of

43:17

the tree And he's looking if he hears a

43:19

little noise in the night He's going to be

43:21

up because his job as this

43:23

part of our brain its only job

43:25

is our survival So nothing

43:28

else matters if that part of our brain

43:30

and our nervous system decides that there could

43:32

be a threat it's up So

43:35

we tend we've come to think of

43:37

anxiety as something odd or abnormal Of

43:40

course we can talk about if it

43:42

becomes debilitating, but in the main we

43:44

want our children to understand That's

43:47

okay your brain and body's designed that if there's

43:49

a noise in the night night time is the

43:51

right time for predators You know we haven't just

43:53

landed on the earth. We've been here hundreds of

43:56

thousands in some for millions of years You know

43:58

the lizard brain is millions of years of

44:00

years effectively. Oh, so it's geared

44:02

for survival. So if our

44:04

children, if something now, we can

44:06

look and think, okay, let's just step

44:08

back. Is there something for some children

44:11

there's weird shadows that for

44:14

Wilbur, there was a boiler in our house. We hadn't really

44:16

clicked until we kind of thought actually, he said, it's

44:18

a blur sound. And we're like, Oh God, yeah, of

44:20

course that is a bit freaky. So

44:22

we can start unpicking it. But I

44:24

think coming from a place of my

44:26

kid is normal, right? They are

44:28

seeking comfort, how lovely that they've got you

44:31

to come for comfort or that you're comforting.

44:33

I'm in that down bunk bed all the

44:35

time. You know, I mean, I

44:37

just go, yeah, because I think it's easier for

44:39

everyone. I'm going to sleep. They're going to sleep.

44:41

Yeah. I'll just get in the bunk bed. They

44:44

won't be doing it when you're 17. No, no,

44:46

no. When they're 17 rather. They won't be doing it

44:48

when they're 17. Yeah. Right. So if they need, now

44:50

we can, and we probably don't have time, but

44:52

we might pick up on it. Now you can

44:54

go into that anxiety and what

44:56

we can do with our children and

44:58

a lot of children don't forget what

45:00

we, I think it cannot be underestimated

45:02

what our children have been through the

45:04

last few years. I know. We've had

45:06

fear, fear, fear that has targeted this

45:09

lizard, the little lizard brain, our reptilian

45:11

brain, the brainstem cerebellum that is all

45:13

about survival. And all they've had is

45:15

fear and death. So let's not forget.

45:17

Let's put that into context. I think

45:19

we do just go, oh, the

45:21

pandemic didn't really impact them mentally. It's all like, oh

45:23

my God, they weren't at school. They weren't seeing their

45:25

friends. They were trapped in a house. We

45:27

know it has. Of course it has. We

45:29

know it has. So I think for many

45:32

parents, I would say, so let's start with

45:34

that anxiety and fear are normal. Yeah. Okay.

45:36

Nothing wrong with your children. And actually, if

45:38

you are able to get in

45:40

with them, they come in with you, do you

45:42

know what? It's all good. I've traveled quite a

45:44

lot. I used to, I went to live with

45:46

the tribes people in Borneo and they all just

45:48

lay on the floor. Everyone sleeps together. So it

45:50

kind of a again, it's about, is

45:52

it really normal for a baby to

45:54

be sleeping in another room? No, that

45:56

baby is going to need to have

45:58

the physicality of parents. And

46:00

I'm not saying this in judgment, by the way. I'm

46:03

just saying from the perspective of the baby, we all

46:06

grow up going, well, you put the baby

46:08

in the nursery and this is the way you

46:10

do it. But what I want people to think

46:12

is, and again, no judgment, but what are

46:14

the needs of the baby's brain? The baby's

46:16

brain does not think it's very, very primitive. It's

46:18

only about survival. Am I fed? Am

46:21

I looked after? And the associations that are

46:23

made in that first year, that little

46:26

lizard, does someone come when I cry?

46:29

Do I feel, you know, if I feel unsafe, if

46:31

I cry, does someone come and pick me up? They

46:34

are associations that are made. It's not

46:36

thinking, but they're associations. Is the world

46:39

a safe place? So

46:41

that little lizard brain has grown up from, you

46:43

know, from Dot, from In The Womb, making

46:46

associations about life. And whatever we were advised

46:48

to do with our children will have an

46:50

impact. So it's important to recognize, and that's

46:52

not to say we can't undo it, but

46:54

that needs to extend that investment of our

46:57

time to kind of go, actually, sweetheart, I

46:59

can see. So then we can go into

47:01

the what is it that is making you

47:03

anxious? They might not know because this part

47:05

of the brain doesn't use words. It's very

47:07

unconscious. But that's where we can use imagery.

47:11

So Wilbur, for example, was having lots of

47:13

nightmares about sharks and being eaten, which is

47:15

quite a common one for children. And

47:18

so what I did, and again, obviously with the benefit

47:20

now of my training, which I'm so

47:22

grateful for, but so I'll hold up a big

47:24

pad and then I would actually and

47:26

you've got to do it. You don't want to go

47:28

over the window of tolerance of your child and it's

47:31

got to be age appropriate. But I would hold up

47:33

a pad and I'd go, OK, what does

47:35

he look like? The shark and, you know, he might have got,

47:37

oh, I don't want to do it, Mommy. I don't want to

47:39

do it. And I go, that's OK. We don't

47:41

have to do it. But if you want to show me what the shark looks

47:43

like, we can. And then the next day, you know,

47:45

he said, oh, I had it again, Mommy. OK, should we just have

47:47

a chat with this shark? Because I think I need to really know

47:49

what he's going on. And then he

47:51

did draw it. So it's about gentle. And again,

47:54

I talk about it a lot in the book.

47:56

I do lots of exercises with explaining all of

47:58

this. But using. imagery is

48:00

a really lovely way. I've had children

48:02

that have got OCD and actually all

48:04

their symptoms have really dissipated when you

48:06

can start talking, you know, and

48:08

talking to the part, talking in parts is quite

48:11

nice. You know, what part of

48:13

you is feeling anxious? Because and then a child

48:15

realizes it's not all of them. Yeah, not all

48:17

an anxious fizz ball. Yeah, but it's part of

48:19

them. It's anxious. And then they can sort of

48:21

think, okay, what is it? Well, there's a bit

48:24

in my tummy that feels really anxious. Oh, I

48:26

wonder if you could draw what you're anxious about.

48:28

And then it might be leaving you mummy. Or

48:30

it might be, you know, that there's someone at

48:32

school is shouting at me, the teacher shouting, or

48:34

it might be that the person next to me

48:37

keeps pinching me under the desk. Then

48:39

you can start getting into Oh, wow. Okay,

48:41

then you can really getting into helping resolve

48:44

the anxiety and also just validating it because

48:46

I think when they don't know if it's

48:49

all right to feel those feelings, and

48:51

they just thinking, well, the teacher

48:53

does shout, or this kid is horrible to me, they

48:55

don't know what to do with any of it. So

48:57

I think the drawing thing is really brilliant. Luckily, my

48:59

kids both love drawing. So it's something that we have

49:01

used in the past. And it's so helpful to get

49:04

just an insight into what's going on in their

49:06

brains. A really important, important topic

49:08

and you feature it in the book. I

49:10

mean, I'm sure you could write a whole

49:12

book about it is screen time. Again,

49:15

we are the generation is trying

49:17

to navigate this absolutely wild

49:19

west of a landscape. And we

49:22

don't know what we're

49:24

doing. Our parents can't give us any advice because they

49:26

didn't have to deal with this. There's

49:29

very little advice coming from any

49:31

top tier anything. So we're just making up as

49:33

we go along. But what I really love again,

49:35

looking at the science is the hard facts that

49:37

you put in this book, one of them being

49:40

a study by the National Institute

49:42

of Health, saying the excessive screen

49:44

time actually fins the cortex of the

49:46

brain. So that's just one of the

49:48

facts and stats that you put in there. But we can't

49:50

just go, Oh, it's fine.

49:52

The screens aren't really doing anything. You know,

49:54

like, obviously, we're all going to use them

49:56

as sort of babysitters at time. If

49:59

I've got something to do in a setting.

50:01

morning, my kids are definitely going to be

50:03

on a screen and I'm going to be

50:05

cleaning the kitchen, I might do a little

50:07

bit of yoga, but when it moves into

50:09

sort of all day long or using them

50:11

in the middle of the night, we do

50:13

have to worry. This is of concern. How,

50:15

I mean, I don't know how you're going

50:17

to answer this, how do we navigate this

50:19

absolute shit show? Yeah, well

50:22

thank you for raising it and

50:24

I know you know it's something I,

50:26

as we say, first of all our parents never had

50:28

to deal with it, so we get parents saying, well

50:30

is it that? Just say no and you think, well

50:32

did you have this because you don't have no idea?

50:35

And then coming back to that community, so

50:37

our children as we say, it is so

50:39

much easier to hand our kids

50:41

a screen because actually we do need time, you

50:43

know, and that's really important to acknowledge as well.

50:46

So if our kids were all part

50:48

of a community, so setting all

50:50

of that into context, okay, we,

50:53

looking at the science, I think with every

50:55

aspect of parenting, all I ever want to

50:57

do is share the science to say to

50:59

parents, now you've got the science because it

51:01

helped me with my parenting and if

51:04

it helps you to make decisions,

51:06

trusting your instinct and intuition, I

51:08

think we all intuitively know that dreams are not

51:10

good, trusting it, then great, and then

51:12

also what I do is give you some, you

51:15

know, sort of tactical ways of actually

51:18

sort of having those conversations and navigating it.

51:20

So I always think if you need that,

51:22

you need the why, but you also need

51:24

the how, don't you? Yeah. So with screens,

51:26

I think I've

51:28

even become more hardcore about it doing

51:30

the research actually, it scared me, it's

51:33

really scared me because looking at the

51:35

research, you mentioned that study about the

51:37

sinning of the prefrontal cortex, we know

51:39

that neurons that fire together, wire together

51:41

and so the opposite is true, we've

51:43

had even the tech, some of the

51:45

tech giants have left and said we

51:47

know the damage that this is

51:49

doing, so we can't walk

51:51

blindly into this. Now, I will

51:54

get parents sometimes sending me videos of

51:56

them taking away their child's

51:58

screen and the meltdown. that ensues and going,

52:01

what do I do? And these are very young

52:03

children sometimes. And I have to say, that

52:06

is a sign that your child is

52:08

properly addicted, in the strictest sense, because

52:10

the dopamine kick that we all get, that

52:13

we all get, we're looking at screens, you've

52:16

just come in and go, well, you haven't done your

52:18

homework, I'm taking that away or whatever.

52:20

And they literally experience a

52:22

massive loss, and a

52:25

chemical called acetylcholine, which actually makes

52:27

us angry. So it's

52:29

understanding that if you do that, we've

52:32

given our kids screens, if you take

52:34

them away, we've set up the addict,

52:36

and then now we're going, we're going

52:38

to take your substance away. So we

52:40

have to recognise how serious this is.

52:42

Now, with younger children, I think that

52:44

the answer for me has to

52:47

be we've just got to remove them. We

52:49

just have to remove them, because we're setting

52:51

ourselves up to fail when we

52:53

get to our kids age, when

52:56

we can start having conversations. But to give a five

52:58

year old a screen and sit them on it, you've

53:01

got to know that their brains are

53:03

literally getting wired as you're watching them. So

53:06

it's really important, and I don't say that

53:08

there's no value judgment in that, it is

53:10

fact, that is it. So we

53:12

are all in the brain development business as

53:15

parents, as teachers, as carers. So we want

53:17

to do our job well, we know that

53:19

being on screens is wiring our children's brains,

53:22

not really for the better. So we

53:24

know that all the research is in the

53:26

book. So and I'm not talking of you

53:29

just said we're not talking about short term,

53:31

you know, kind of little periods, we're talking

53:33

about being on excessive screen, when we have

53:35

our older children, you know, my daughter's been

53:37

asking about, you know, people on Snapchat or

53:39

whatever. And I think

53:41

we can start having conversations with our children,

53:44

want to let them know how addicted the

53:46

algorithms are written, and programmed to

53:48

suck them in. And my husband is really good with

53:50

the kids. He's like, he's like, your brain is going

53:52

to get sucked. I mean, he says it in a

53:54

kind of jovial way, but he's like, your brain is

53:56

going to get sucked out. It's not you that benefits.

53:59

It's the people who make the program. So

54:01

he sort of is setting them up to

54:03

really start interrogating and I think teenagers are

54:05

going to start to think we don't want

54:07

to be used. I agree. So I think

54:09

we want to tap into that natural teenage

54:11

rebellion that they go well actually

54:13

I don't want to be used it's actually cool and

54:15

not to do it. So that's for the teenagers I really

54:17

want to have these conversations where we can say you

54:19

do realize that you're being used. I think that's kind

54:21

of where we want to get to a bit cheeky

54:24

but like and then for some children if

54:26

look for a lot of children it can be a

54:28

real saviour because that's the

54:30

way that they communicate so I get that.

54:32

So every parent has to make decisions for

54:34

themselves but I think if our children are

54:36

saying I want to go on this app or that app

54:38

which they shouldn't before 13 that's you know

54:41

what even the tech giants have put at 13.

54:43

It's the why you know what is

54:46

it about being online and what is

54:48

it about is there a sense of

54:50

you know because really what we want to go into do

54:53

I need affirmation? Am I doing it for

54:55

affirmation? So again I've put a few scripts

54:57

and sentences to sort of try out with

54:59

your children in the book that to

55:02

sort of go I wonder what it is about that

55:04

that is making you feel good and then

55:07

talking about the research maybe

55:09

that shows that we might feel good

55:11

initially but do we do we

55:13

feel good after coming off it because how many of

55:15

us if we keep watching everybody else having a great

55:17

time and the girl who's prettier next door and the

55:19

girl who's doing this or the boy who's doing that

55:22

does it make us feel good so having

55:24

really sensible conversations so that they can be

55:26

a bit more mindful and actually if our

55:28

children are going online to

55:30

feel affirmed and to feel prettier or more

55:33

popular then that's again our job

55:35

to start working with them and maybe

55:37

hanging out with them and helping them to

55:40

feel affirmed by us. Yeah because the thing

55:42

is we we haven't been taught

55:44

this as grown-ass adults because we all I

55:47

mean I probably got a phone I don't know it's probably 16 or

55:49

something they've just been invented and it obviously

55:52

didn't do anything wasn't a smartphone certainly but

55:54

in my adulthood that was part of the

55:57

thing of this is how your your career now

56:00

operates through a phone and there's bits of

56:02

it that I really like but I can feel

56:04

myself in my 40s still get sucked into this

56:06

wall text of oh my god

56:09

like how long have I been scrolling and also

56:11

sorry what am I who am

56:13

I now comparing myself to and all of this stuff so

56:15

actually we need to parent ourselves because we haven't been through

56:17

this to then show them and I

56:20

feel the same as you I think because they're

56:22

going to be savvier with tech and they're all

56:24

everyone's going to be using tech in some form

56:26

in their job down the line but it's

56:29

having these sensible boundaries in place that they

56:31

can actually create and regulate because we've told

56:33

them all the facts that's all we need

56:35

to do is tell them the facts of

56:38

you know this is what happens in your brain

56:40

and this is why and then they can make

56:42

and I think they will on mass make decisions

56:44

in a much more sensible and governed

56:47

way down the line because we've made

56:49

all the big mistakes because we were

56:51

just like going for it like kids

56:53

in candy shops just like yeah I just want

56:55

to have it all I think the next generation

56:57

are going to be much more

56:59

sensible and they're just going to approach it

57:01

completely differently but I do I totally agree

57:03

with you and it's you know it's a

57:05

bit of a battle in our house probably

57:08

more with Rex again because he's pre-teen and

57:10

like you said

57:12

communicating over games or whatever but

57:15

we've sort of worked out boundaries that work for

57:17

us that the kids are so they're probably bored

57:19

of it and they're so used to us hearing

57:21

hearing us say the same thing which is they can

57:24

use them on a Saturday and Sunday morning only and

57:26

that's how it is and once me and Jesse have

57:28

finished doing all our jobs we're out the house and

57:30

we're going do something whatever I'm very

57:32

lucky that I rarely have to work weekend

57:34

so I can be there to you know

57:36

establish those boundaries and though not everyone has

57:38

that privilege and they might have to work

57:40

24-7 but I think you do

57:43

have to find those boundaries that work

57:45

for you but like you say they're

57:47

addictive it's that simple and we all

57:49

have to be mindful one of the

57:51

big problems I think for again

57:54

our generation is the introduction

57:56

of screens in school and

57:59

without getting too personal about it, I'm

58:01

really struggling with that one and the fact

58:03

that they're you know on mass now

58:06

around the UK and I'm sure it's probably the

58:08

same in the States and parts of Europe introducing

58:10

screens into up to 60% of

58:13

lesson time in schools

58:15

from as young as 11. I feel

58:19

angry, I feel helpless

58:21

because nothing

58:23

seems to be changeable

58:26

at this point or malleable in terms

58:28

of the introduction age and how they're

58:30

going to be used it's just like

58:32

this is happening and something

58:34

doesn't sit right with me about it but

58:37

it feels like we're on the steam train

58:39

see you later like we have no choice

58:41

in it what are your thoughts on that?

58:43

Thank you I love how you put I

58:45

am angry good I'm fucking angry I

58:48

was gonna suggest at that moment that we get

58:51

up and stomp our feet which is actually I'm

58:53

gonna punch a pillow and but we

58:55

need to do that that's the adult that's the

58:57

adult book we need to do that as well we need

59:00

to shake out I'm shaking I

59:02

shake every day good I shake

59:04

every day yeah like I'll

59:06

do this workout class that has like I'd

59:08

say probably 15 minutes of it is just

59:10

shaking and it's changed so much for me

59:12

I digress well no that's good

59:14

there's a science to that which we know that's

59:17

great anyway so what are we going to do

59:19

yes well I think parents do

59:21

need to I think when we there that sometimes

59:25

with policy look any of the

59:27

really big policies around children for

59:29

example children not being visited in

59:32

hospital and smacking a two

59:34

of the really big campaigns why did they

59:36

change corporal punishment parent power so

59:39

we have to remember again

59:42

I come back to we're in the brain

59:44

development business we want to do our job

59:46

well together we can and I think sometimes

59:48

it's very easy again because we're all living

59:50

quite disparate lives the fact that you and

59:52

I are talking and we're completely in agreement

59:54

and having the same sort of experiences tells

59:57

us everything so we need to start talking

59:59

more We need to come

1:00:01

together, we need to present schools with the

1:00:03

science and say, for me it's always about

1:00:06

where is the evidence base. So what evidence

1:00:08

base have you got to support that this

1:00:10

is supporting my child's well-being? There

1:00:12

isn't any. There isn't any and in fact

1:00:15

quite the opposite. So my question would be,

1:00:17

let's not in education be sheep. We must

1:00:19

look at what works and it's the same

1:00:21

for behaviour policies as well, because there's many

1:00:23

behaviour policies that are implemented in schools that

1:00:26

are damaging our children. They're shame-based and they

1:00:28

shouldn't be in school and there's no evidence

1:00:30

base for them. Yeah, can we just go

1:00:32

for a quick tangent on that? Because that

1:00:34

again was shocking for me to realise,

1:00:37

because I knew it, but I hadn't realised, like even

1:00:39

looking at the traffic light system in as young as

1:00:42

reception, where you're on the red if you're bad and

1:00:44

green if you're good and gold if you're extra good,

1:00:47

that is shaming. That is shaming.

1:00:49

Like there's nowhere around that and we're still using

1:00:51

that system in schools. That's just

1:00:53

a little tangent. And it goes to the core

1:00:55

of a child's sense of self. Even

1:00:57

as you say that, I get a fizz in

1:01:00

my system. You know, how

1:01:02

would we like to be called out in the workplace

1:01:04

and given a fern, you go and sit on the

1:01:06

green one, you're good today. I mean, you go and

1:01:08

stand on the red one. I mean, I had it

1:01:10

on Instagram, it's not nice. No, it's

1:01:12

like shit. Yeah, it's horrible.

1:01:15

I'm in a career of often shaming

1:01:17

people. It's horrible, horrible, horrible. And we're

1:01:19

adults. And we're adults and we can't

1:01:22

handle it. So we've got

1:01:24

little children who have got very immature

1:01:26

brains who are unable to regulate and

1:01:28

yet they're being shamed, put on naughty

1:01:31

steps or chairs to face the wall.

1:01:33

It has to stop. It has to

1:01:35

stop. So whether it's screens or some

1:01:38

of these policies, I talk a

1:01:40

lot about how we can advocate for our children

1:01:42

and we must not be afraid to because

1:01:44

we've all been conditioned through our parenting to be

1:01:46

compliant. I know. You see, this is where it

1:01:48

is. We can't. We think we can't. So there's

1:01:51

a lot of parents that think, I think she's

1:01:53

not right. But you

1:01:55

know, I'm the one that sort of goes to the front and

1:01:57

says, hang on actually. So we do need to question. I'm

1:02:00

lucky my mum has

1:02:02

a very rebellious nature. And

1:02:04

that's just how she turned up in the

1:02:07

world. So she's always been very

1:02:09

vehement in her line of thinking and

1:02:13

who she wants to tell. And she doesn't care if people don't agree

1:02:15

with her. So I don't feel

1:02:18

too terrified to go, I

1:02:20

don't think this is right. But I can

1:02:22

totally see how many people or parents go, well, we can't,

1:02:25

it's the school. And this is just how it operates. Or

1:02:27

this is the government-led initiative or all the other schools are

1:02:29

doing it. And then you just don't

1:02:31

say anything. Yeah, so okay. Not all schools

1:02:33

are doing it. We've actually moved out to the

1:02:35

country to be in a school where they encourage

1:02:37

children to climb trees. Slightly

1:02:40

because of the issue. I have

1:02:42

to say, it's really motivated

1:02:44

our decision. I

1:02:46

want my kids to be outdoors climbing

1:02:49

trees and exploring space, not on a

1:02:51

screen. And to

1:02:53

be in a lesson. So we've

1:02:55

got to think about eyesight, hormones,

1:02:59

in terms of looking at these. We know that

1:03:01

for adults, it's not great to be set. Posture

1:03:03

hunched over screens. And when you say hormones, this

1:03:05

is circadian rhythm stuff. So this is, you're not

1:03:07

gonna be producing melatonin as efficiently if you're looking

1:03:09

at a screen all day. So we all want

1:03:11

our kids to sleep. So let's not have them

1:03:13

on the screen. But they get sent home and

1:03:15

their homework is done. On a screen. Very often

1:03:17

on a screen. And so for children who are

1:03:20

traveling long distances or whatever, that they come home

1:03:22

and they're on there and then parents are trying

1:03:24

to get them desperately, trying to get them to

1:03:26

sleep. But they've been on a screen maybe an

1:03:28

hour before. So we

1:03:30

have to start applying the, policies

1:03:34

have to be evidence-based. And I think that's

1:03:36

where we have to come from. And for

1:03:38

parents to equip themselves, to talk to each

1:03:40

other. This is why we're seeing

1:03:42

grassroots campaigns really taking off at the moment.

1:03:44

Because parents are saying enough. This

1:03:47

is how we get change. It changed

1:03:49

for children who weren't able to have

1:03:51

their parents visit them in hospital. That

1:03:53

changed through parent power, as did corporate

1:03:55

punishment. So let's look at this maybe

1:03:57

as a way forward to say we

1:03:59

have to. apply what we instinctively

1:04:01

know but what science supports and

1:04:04

put the onus on the education

1:04:06

system to prove that it's in

1:04:08

our children's best interest because I don't

1:04:11

think they can. They can't and it feels

1:04:13

like the onus is actually still on the

1:04:15

parent to monitor screen time at home so

1:04:18

they can have their sufficient screen time at

1:04:20

school which again doesn't sit well

1:04:22

with me, doesn't feel right. It

1:04:24

just feels like we're on the cusp of

1:04:26

going down a really bad route like many

1:04:28

many schools and we are kind

1:04:31

of blindsided by it and go I don't

1:04:33

know what to do but I

1:04:35

feel very inspired and I felt very inspired talking

1:04:37

to you even on text before today knowing that

1:04:39

it doesn't have to be that way and

1:04:41

actually it's not I think

1:04:44

the tone at the moment is slightly patronizing that

1:04:46

we're a bunch of luddites and we don't really

1:04:48

understand the world and oh you're you guys are

1:04:50

used to like abacus's and black wards and it's

1:04:53

like well no we all use

1:04:55

tech at work but we also understand that

1:04:57

there's got to be a balance and there's

1:04:59

got to be time off screen where we're

1:05:01

moving and playing and using a pen and

1:05:04

paper. I still write my bloody notes for the podcast

1:05:06

on a pen and paper because I still believe it's

1:05:08

the best way for my brain to remember the

1:05:11

information so I'm gonna take

1:05:13

everything you've said away today and again

1:05:16

talk to other parents and you

1:05:18

know outside of even my kids school and just go

1:05:20

what are we going to do about this? Like I'm

1:05:22

sure there are many other parents who'll be listening to

1:05:24

this nodding going yeah I want to do

1:05:26

something and I'd be really grateful to connect

1:05:29

with those people and see what we can

1:05:31

do like you say we could create very

1:05:33

positive change. Another

1:05:35

section of the book and again I know

1:05:37

you could write a whole book on this

1:05:40

in itself is neurodivergence and I wouldn't want to

1:05:42

do this chat without talking about it

1:05:44

because it seems like we're in a

1:05:47

again a time of change where

1:05:49

people it's such a strange

1:05:51

contradictory thing people there's more people being diagnosed

1:05:54

with ADHD but we're equally told

1:05:56

there are so many people out there who haven't

1:05:58

been diagnosed that should be. So

1:06:00

we're going, wait, what? And actually what you're

1:06:02

saying, well, I'll let you say what you

1:06:04

think about neurodivergence. Because again, it's probably

1:06:07

more to do with the environment we're

1:06:09

growing up in, the experiences that we're

1:06:11

dealing with. And also, we can't look

1:06:14

at neurodivergence without looking at the, again,

1:06:17

controversial system in place that allows

1:06:19

us to ascertain whether someone is

1:06:22

neurodivergent or not. And that is

1:06:24

a questionnaire. There's no scientific

1:06:27

brain scanning way to say your

1:06:29

brain is wired differently. It's

1:06:31

a questionnaire that we're filling out and

1:06:34

going, your kid's got ADHD, ASD, whatever

1:06:36

it might be. So how do we

1:06:38

navigate this big old ball of info?

1:06:41

Right, OK, settling in. How long

1:06:43

have we got? I love

1:06:45

it. Where to begin?

1:06:47

OK, well, we've got neuroscientists like

1:06:49

Yuck Punksett, who 20 years ago

1:06:52

said that children really weren't having

1:06:54

ADHD, they just weren't playing enough.

1:06:57

So we're looking at Sir Ken

1:07:00

Robinson, a great in education. So they said

1:07:02

children weren't suffering. They were suffering from childhood,

1:07:04

basically. And what they were really both meaning

1:07:06

is that if our children are not able

1:07:08

to do the things, again, if we reflect

1:07:11

on the context of how our children are

1:07:13

growing up, more sedentary, eating

1:07:16

more processed foods, all

1:07:20

of these things are actually impacting

1:07:22

stress in motherhood, stress in pregnancy

1:07:24

rather, and in motherhood. Stress

1:07:27

in pregnancy. There's

1:07:29

a lot that I talk about in the book that

1:07:32

really when you look at it as a whole, even

1:07:34

I was surprised, when I did the research and I

1:07:36

speak to people like Gabor personally and take

1:07:38

a lot from all of his research. And you look at it

1:07:40

and you're like, why are we even

1:07:42

questioning whether there's a problem with our children?

1:07:44

The problem is not with our children. It

1:07:47

is with their environment. So

1:07:50

we come back to with, let's

1:07:52

take ADHD, as you say, there's

1:07:55

no blood test. There's no brain scan. There's

1:07:58

a lot of people that I'm also... speaking

1:08:00

to now Dr. Lucy Johnston of

1:08:03

the power threat meaning framework. A

1:08:05

lot of her work is looking at actually

1:08:08

misdiagnosis. In terms of saying you've got ADHD

1:08:10

but you haven't. Yes. And

1:08:12

actually Margot Sunderland who's

1:08:15

one of my mentors, child

1:08:17

psychotherapist, she's like all

1:08:19

young children have ADHD. ADHD is

1:08:22

when we cannot, we find it more

1:08:24

difficult to regulate our emotions. So

1:08:28

a lot of children I think that people are looking

1:08:30

and thinking that child's got something wrong with them. Or

1:08:32

I've heard some people, teachers

1:08:35

have said, oh that child they don't speak when

1:08:37

I talk to them or they go under the

1:08:40

desk. And they might have

1:08:42

ASD and I'm like well let's just

1:08:44

talk about the fight, flight, freeze response.

1:08:46

Because that child might go mute because

1:08:48

they're absolutely petrified at being asked a question that they

1:08:50

don't know the answer to. Or they

1:08:52

really are so frightened and overwhelmed by being

1:08:54

at school that they've gone under the desk

1:08:57

because their nervous system, they

1:08:59

haven't even thought about it, their nervous system has driven it. There's

1:09:02

nothing wrong with that child. So children

1:09:04

are children. Now I also know, I

1:09:06

did the ADHD, I paid to have

1:09:08

a test done for me because I

1:09:10

thought A it'd be quite interesting and

1:09:12

B because I have a lot

1:09:15

of symptoms. I

1:09:17

mean I do, I probably got all the things. I

1:09:19

think most of us, I like to think, what I

1:09:22

tend to say is that look we are all on

1:09:24

a spectrum. Some of us will be

1:09:26

brilliant at creative things and our brain is

1:09:28

less good at this. Our brains are all wired

1:09:30

differently. It doesn't mean to say there's something

1:09:32

wrong with us. The word disorder is the problem

1:09:35

here right? Yes, I talk a lot with

1:09:37

Drop the Disorder, it's a great organisation and they

1:09:39

do a lot of work in this regard.

1:09:42

I think there's a huge compassion.

1:09:44

I know for parents it is

1:09:47

terribly distressing when their children are behaving

1:09:49

in ways that they just don't understand. Hopefully

1:09:52

with my book this is what I want to

1:09:54

do is to sort of say please let's not

1:09:56

look at children as having a problem but there

1:09:58

is something that is distressing them. And once

1:10:01

we can get into that, a lot

1:10:03

of these big behaviours will disappear.

1:10:06

They will disappear. I work with children all

1:10:08

the time. They disappear. So,

1:10:11

or at least dissipate. So I

1:10:14

think coming in, my message

1:10:16

really is let's try to lose the

1:10:18

labels if we can. I

1:10:21

understand that they can help because

1:10:23

they can sometimes give us a sense of, ah,

1:10:25

okay, so I can put my child in that.

1:10:27

But it can be quite debilitating for children

1:10:30

then because people either over

1:10:32

expect or don't expect so

1:10:34

much of them. When these kids are brilliant, their

1:10:36

brains, my brain works brilliantly, but it's not

1:10:38

great at accounts, you know, it's absolutely

1:10:40

awful. But let's work with our children

1:10:43

with what they're brilliant at for starters.

1:10:45

If children are behaving in a dysregulated way, let's

1:10:47

not look at it that it's a symptom of

1:10:50

ADHD. Let's look at it as

1:10:52

a symptom of emotional dysregulation. We can

1:10:54

work with that. So

1:10:57

there is also a

1:10:59

real muddle around children

1:11:01

who have experienced trauma and

1:11:04

they are, so for example,

1:11:06

we might have a boy, I use

1:11:09

an example in the book, a boy who's being

1:11:11

bullied and his parents are going through a very

1:11:13

acrimonious divorce. It's just an

1:11:15

example. Now he then gets

1:11:17

violent in the playground because he's being bullied,

1:11:19

so he needs to make himself bigger to

1:11:22

fend the bullies off. And he's also thinking that

1:11:25

the divorce is his fault, so he's experiencing a

1:11:27

huge amount of shame. Now

1:11:29

he then gets diagnosed with ADHD because

1:11:31

his actions are

1:11:34

very dysregulated. If

1:11:36

we stop to ask him what was going on for

1:11:38

him right then, what's going on

1:11:40

for you right now? You know,

1:11:42

what is going on in your world and how are

1:11:44

you actually coping? This is the power threat meaning framework

1:11:47

that Lucy Johnston has created. If

1:11:49

we ask him what his story

1:11:51

is and understand him, we understand that

1:11:53

he's being bullied and he's making

1:11:55

himself bigger and punching before he gets punched and

1:11:58

that he's having a really, really time

1:12:00

with his parents divorce. If we

1:12:02

diagnose him as ADHD and maybe put

1:12:04

him on medication, are we really helping

1:12:07

him? So

1:12:09

we're doing our children a great disservice

1:12:11

if we're not stopping to look at

1:12:13

the reasons why. And without

1:12:15

and until science becomes more

1:12:17

advanced we cannot

1:12:20

definitively say that anyone definitively

1:12:22

has something called ADHD. It's not even

1:12:25

really a medical, it's

1:12:27

a description, it's an umbrella term. So

1:12:29

I really really want us all to think very

1:12:32

carefully. I get that it can be helpful to

1:12:34

have it because it can give

1:12:36

us more support and Lord knows parents do need more

1:12:38

support, I get that. So I'm not

1:12:40

I'm not discriminating, I'm just saying I don't want

1:12:42

children out there to be expressing

1:12:45

their distress and

1:12:48

then just being told it's because they've got ADHD

1:12:50

or ASD. I want to know

1:12:52

that these children are being seen and heard and not

1:12:55

just put on medication because very often and again

1:12:57

I talk about medication in the book, doesn't

1:13:00

help long term. It might help in the short term

1:13:02

but it doesn't help long term. We have the evidence

1:13:04

for that. So I really

1:13:06

would rather that parents sort of say

1:13:08

okay well I'm having a tough time,

1:13:10

my child's clearly having a tough time,

1:13:13

I need help, can I have help? Yes this

1:13:15

is how it should be. You do need, we

1:13:17

all need help and support when we ask for

1:13:19

it. But actually if it's about emotional dysregulation we

1:13:22

can bring our children to the point where we

1:13:24

can really get beneath what's driving the

1:13:26

behavior and very often, very

1:13:28

often we'll find that it will it will

1:13:30

dissipate. And I do quote Nadine Burke Harris

1:13:32

in the book who's this incredible pediatrician in

1:13:35

the state and she said of a hundred

1:13:37

children that she had been sent,

1:13:39

that she was sent these kids who got ADHD,

1:13:41

she said only three. Which she considered

1:13:44

and even then she said you know but only three.

1:13:46

So we really need to understand what's going

1:13:48

on for our children and ask not what's

1:13:50

wrong with you but what's

1:13:53

going on for you.

1:13:55

It's so eye-opening hearing you

1:13:57

talk about this and I urge anyone who who

1:14:00

this is striking a chord with to get your

1:14:03

book because you go into it in more detail

1:14:05

and you've got studies in there and it's

1:14:07

something that we desperately need to investigate

1:14:09

and look at and keep talking about

1:14:11

because I think it's also really a

1:14:15

motive conversation to have lots of people who

1:14:17

have very strong feelings about it because of

1:14:19

their own diagnosis or their kids diagnosis but

1:14:21

we've got to talk about it rather than

1:14:23

just going there's only one way with this

1:14:25

and we all know where that leads to

1:14:27

so I think it's the

1:14:30

whole thing has been this whole conversation and your

1:14:32

book has been game-changing for

1:14:34

me eye-opening for me if Anushka's

1:14:37

eyes weren't bearing into my soul I would

1:14:39

keep talking for the next week because you

1:14:42

can't cover this chat in an hour it's

1:14:45

impossible you've done a bloody good job of

1:14:47

telling us some extremely important things to consider

1:14:49

and to mull over but I just urge

1:14:51

everyone to get the book and whether you're

1:14:53

a parent or not because I think this

1:14:56

is actually about self-regulation and the nervous system

1:14:58

for any human you don't have to be

1:15:00

a parent to be listening to this you

1:15:02

might look after your nieces and

1:15:04

nephews at points or or

1:15:06

I don't know just want to be curious

1:15:09

about your own upbringing and how you see

1:15:11

the world I think it's I've got lots

1:15:13

of grandparential knowledge yeah grandparents exactly no it's

1:15:15

it's it's an essential read thank you for

1:15:17

writing it and thank you so much for

1:15:19

talking to us today thank you for having

1:15:22

me firm really appreciate it thank you oh

1:15:26

god Kate I love you I love you I

1:15:28

love you I love you that episode honestly

1:15:31

could have been eight hours long

1:15:33

I kept looking over at producer

1:15:35

Anushka like I need more time

1:15:37

I've got more questions to ask

1:15:40

and look we only scratched the surface

1:15:42

there's so much more what I suggest

1:15:44

you do is read Kate's book because

1:15:47

there's so much in there reading her book

1:15:49

and chatting to her and now really actually

1:15:51

forging a lovely friendship with her has genuinely

1:15:54

changed my life and the way

1:15:56

I parent I'm by no

1:15:59

means parenting perfectly, but it

1:16:01

definitely changed my outlook on my

1:16:03

kids' behaviours. If perhaps they're

1:16:06

kicking off about something, they're not doing what

1:16:08

I need them to do to make my

1:16:11

life easier, I'm finding myself taking a bit

1:16:13

of a step back to go, oh wait,

1:16:15

what's actually going on here? And oh wait,

1:16:18

why am I reacting like this? Why am

1:16:20

I throwing my toys out the pram? It's

1:16:22

given me so much to think about.

1:16:25

And going back to that lizard, baboon

1:16:27

and the wise owl, that is a

1:16:29

game-changing, simple tool that we can all

1:16:31

use for ourselves, for our own children,

1:16:34

for kids we might look after, or

1:16:36

if you're a teacher in school, I

1:16:39

think it's profoundly helpful. There's

1:16:41

Still No Such Thing As Naughty is out on the 28th of

1:16:44

March. What other books have you not been

1:16:46

able to put down recently? Are you reading

1:16:49

along with this month's Happy Place Book Club?

1:16:51

The book is called Killjoy and it's by

1:16:53

Jo Cheatham. Come over to at Happy Place

1:16:55

Book Club on Instagram to let us know

1:16:57

what you think of it. Alright,

1:17:00

until next week, a massive thanks

1:17:02

again to Kate, the producer, and

1:17:04

Ashkateet at Happy Place Studios,

1:17:07

and to you, go punch a pillow if

1:17:09

you need to, go on! Swimsuit?

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