0:01

Hello and welcome to Happy Place

0:03

with me, Fern Cotton. This

0:05

is the show that tries to understand what's

0:07

really going on in our minds. Today

0:10

I'm chatting to Rahul Jandial. What

0:12

if what you're experiencing in your dream life

0:14

in that hyper emotional state is actually a

0:17

harbinger or a red flag for something you

0:19

haven't even recognized about yourself during

0:21

the day? And

0:23

exploring the hyper emotional components

0:25

of your dreaming might

0:27

be just a different look at

0:30

how you're seeing yourself cope or not cope

0:32

with the challenges of your waking life. Some

0:35

people feel well during the day and if they have

0:37

these nightmares come through, I think they should be asked

0:39

about like temperature. I think a

0:41

nightmare pattern can be a clue to

0:44

things you may or may not recognize about yourself during

0:46

the day. Rahul is a

0:48

leading neurosurgeon and neurobiologist. He's

0:50

overseen groundbreaking science at the

0:52

Jandial lab in Los Angeles,

0:55

has spent years doing incredible

0:57

complex cancer operations and travels

1:00

the world performing and teaching

1:02

brain surgery in underserved hospitals.

1:04

He's fascinated by the neuroscience

1:07

of dreams. In his

1:09

latest book, This is Why You

1:11

Dream, he delves into the incredible

1:13

scientific research on dreams and how

1:15

dreaming affects our waking life. I've

1:17

got to admit, I'm pretty obsessed with

1:20

dreams. I spend probably way

1:22

too long going down like Google rabbit

1:24

holes looking into ridiculous meanings of dreams

1:26

and what's going to happen in my

1:29

future due to these dreams. But

1:31

really reading this book has given

1:34

me, I guess, a little bit

1:36

more permission to take them more

1:38

seriously and to actually find

1:40

out a bespoke meaning of what they

1:42

mean to me. And actually during

1:45

the reading of this book, I started having

1:47

some pretty wild dreams, which I'm

1:49

desperate to talk to Rahul about.

1:51

Rahul reckons we need to be

1:53

paying attention to our dreams. They're

1:55

like nocturnal therapists. What a great

1:57

phrase. And that they can allow

2:00

hours to have a bit of

2:02

safe space to rehearse real life

2:04

scenarios we might be anxious or

2:06

confused about. Or maybe it's

2:08

that your dream life is flagging something that

2:11

you haven't even recognised about yourself yet. Oh

2:13

my god, there's so much in this chat, you

2:16

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2:20

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2:53

to Rahul in just a moment but

2:55

first, have you got your tickets for

2:57

the Happy Place Festival this summer? We're

2:59

going to be back at both

3:02

Chiswick House and Gardens and Tatton

3:04

Park. And I'm particularly excited because

3:06

we've got a brand new area

3:08

called the Nutrition Hub. There's going

3:10

to be gut health Q&A sessions

3:13

and talks on how to nourish

3:15

your body and soul and embrace

3:17

food freedom. And on

3:19

each day there are going to be

3:21

men only workshops which is amazing because

3:24

we want more men there thinking that

3:26

wellbeing is for them. That is what

3:28

it's all about. So bring your boyfriends,

3:30

bring your dads, bring your mates, your

3:32

brothers, your cousins, whoever. We want them

3:34

there. Do go and get

3:36

your tickets. I cannot wait to

3:38

see you. You just need to

3:40

head to happyplaceofficial.co.uk. Right

3:42

then, mind blowing stuff

3:44

incoming. Here's the show. Rahul,

4:08

it's so lovely to meet you. Thank

4:10

you so much for coming along today

4:13

to chat about something very specific, which

4:15

I'll get to in a moment. Ironically, I slept

4:17

like shit last night and I had no dreams.

4:20

I slept so badly. But during the

4:23

reading of your book, I

4:25

had the most intense and wild dreams

4:27

because it was on my mind, which

4:30

I think leads us into all sorts of

4:32

avenues of conversation about where dreams come from

4:34

and why. You say at the very start

4:36

of your book that alongside

4:38

your incredible career as a

4:41

brain surgeon, you

4:43

have always been utterly fascinated by dreams.

4:45

What is it that piques your curiosity

4:47

about dreams? I had an experience, first of all, thank

4:49

you for having me on. I was maybe 28, I'm

4:51

50 now, 30,

4:55

and we do this operation called awake brain surgery.

4:57

So the brain itself cannot feel, it feels to

4:59

the nerves, it sends out to our face and

5:01

body. So for

5:04

some patients to figure out the specific address

5:06

of language, we numb up the scalp, we

5:08

open up the bone. When

5:10

the brain is exposed, essentially naked, we

5:12

wake them up and we tickle the surface of the

5:14

brain with a faint electrode.

5:17

The patient doesn't feel it, but when

5:20

you tickle the surface of the brain,

5:22

neurons, they communicate with electricity, very faint

5:24

electricity, but electricity nevertheless. And

5:26

I remember there was a patient and she

5:28

said, oh, this is a nightmare of hats since I

5:30

was a kid. And at

5:32

that point I was learning the craft, but

5:35

it struck me and stuck with

5:37

me. I said, you just

5:40

reactivated a nightmare. And

5:43

I said, that's a massive question. For thousands

5:46

of years, people wondered like where do

5:49

dreams come from? Because the understanding was

5:51

flawed that the brain is passive or

5:53

quiet or inactive during nighttime. No,

5:56

at night the brain is throbbing hard. And

5:58

then this made me realize. dreams come

6:01

from the human brain and the

6:04

brain. So I decided to take care of my patients

6:07

and work in a laboratory and take care of my patients.

6:09

I met 10,000 people or more and

6:13

all the stories that were in it. My

6:16

publishing life evolved between

6:19

18, 19, 22, so it wasn't just

6:22

a professor. There

6:24

was a lot of other things in my life so

6:27

the last two books I have written with Penguin, one

6:29

was about the brain, and one

6:31

was about the pain, the trauma, stress, struggle,

6:35

is the emphasis on that one. And

6:38

so the publisher said, okay, we want

6:40

a scientific exploration of dreams and

6:42

dreaming. We know it's an incomplete

6:44

science, but we want it

6:47

to be an author that people can say,

6:49

yeah, this guy, his ideas and synthesis about

6:51

nightmares or erotic dreams, we can

6:53

vibe with that. We want to

6:55

hear from him. So I am

6:58

so fortunate to have this opportunity,

7:00

but that's the long arc of me with

7:02

dreams and dreaming, something

7:04

I noticed in my late 20s, massive exploration

7:08

of neuroscience and patients and humanity and personal life

7:10

journey and then to this moment we're having

7:13

this conversation. It's brilliant because

7:15

I think from all the books that I had or even

7:18

magazines as a teenager, dreaming has been talked

7:20

about in popular culture in quite a sort

7:22

of fanciful way, in a sort of mythical

7:24

way, and you are of course approaching it

7:26

from a lens of curiosity

7:28

but also with your neuroscientist

7:30

hat on so we can look at

7:32

why we're dreaming and what's happening within

7:35

the brain. I don't want to be

7:37

too basic here, but I think it's

7:39

important when we're talking about dreaming to

7:42

get the language right for myself and

7:44

the listeners from the start. So

7:46

the brain is the organ. How

7:48

are you describing the mind? How do you

7:51

differentiate the two? Because sometimes I think we

7:53

conflate them and confuse them. Yeah,

7:55

that's a massive question. It's one people

7:57

have struggled with. My explanation is

7:59

that... this, the brain creates

8:01

the mind and the mind can also return

8:04

back to create the brain. The

8:06

brain has two states that it enters

8:08

without us asking every 24 hours while

8:10

we're on this planet and that's the

8:12

waking brain and the dreaming brain. We

8:14

don't ask to go to sleep. We

8:17

don't activate dreaming. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I'm

8:19

like, please God, can I just go to sleep?

8:21

Well, actually, that's a good point though. But if

8:23

we skip a night of sleep, then the sleep

8:26

pressure kicks in. So there's something driving these rhythms.

8:29

But the way to think of the mind coming

8:31

from neurons and just a little way to conceptualize

8:33

the brain, it's not like the other organs. It's

8:36

not like a liver that it's slicing at half.

8:38

It looks like tiles. It's more

8:40

of an ecosystem of molecular, microscopic,

8:42

100 billion jellyfish that are spraying

8:44

tiny chemicals, the ones you've heard

8:46

about, dopamine, these kind of things,

8:49

but also electricity toward each other. When you

8:51

get all of that together and they synchronize

8:53

and we see patterns of this kind of

8:56

synchrony in nature, like fireflies, they'll start

8:58

beating together. You see self-organizing phenomena.

9:00

Even termites will make mounds. So the neurons

9:02

coalesce in petri dishes in my lab without

9:04

me poking and prodding them. So there's something

9:06

fundamental underneath it. And then there's the mind

9:09

that's above it. The best way for me

9:11

to think about it is if you have

9:13

a stadium with 80,000 people in it, each

9:17

person is a neuron. But the roar

9:19

of the stadium as you approach, that's

9:22

the mind. There's something above that's created

9:24

from the pieces, but doesn't

9:26

rely on each individual piece. It's

9:29

sort of an epiphenomenon, the sound

9:31

of an engine, the roar of a

9:33

stadium. That's the way or the symphony

9:35

of an orchestra. There's something more than

9:37

just the individual pieces. And

9:40

those principles apply even down to

9:42

inorganic matter, like crystals form things,

9:44

termite mounds, beaver dams. The

9:46

self-organizing thing is there in human

9:49

nature as well as nature in

9:51

general at its most elevated form is

9:53

100 billion neurons coming together

9:55

to have this conversation with each

9:57

other. Yeah. to

10:00

have a deeper understanding of that because

10:02

in the book you say that we

10:04

are simultaneously creators of our dreams yet

10:06

also helpless participants and I think that

10:09

relates to that sort of definition because

10:11

you have to go here right our

10:13

dreams informed by circumstance and

10:15

what we're imbibing in the day or

10:18

do we get down to a more

10:20

molecular level and look at the electricity

10:22

that's that's moving around the brain so

10:25

are we more one than the other are

10:27

we creating it are we participants or is

10:30

it just a direct that split into 50 50

10:33

so the dreaming brain so now now

10:36

that we let's establish that the brain goes

10:38

through these two states throughout our life two

10:40

thirds one third sleep and waking the

10:43

major thing going on in sleep is dreaming it's

10:45

not a passive process it's not a quiet process

10:47

the electricity is throbbing the glucose is being used

10:49

you might feel rested in the morning but your

10:52

brain was doing anything but resting so

10:54

if we establish that the

10:56

question becomes how how do we inhabit

10:58

our waking brain how do we get

11:00

a sense of autobiographical

11:03

memories actually the scientific term

11:05

when all my waking days

11:07

and we see aberrations of this in patients

11:09

that haven't lost a sense of self and

11:11

phantom pain so patients inform me quite a

11:13

bit but during the day we are the

11:15

driver of our car if you

11:17

will and we steer the

11:19

direction of it we inhabit it mostly

11:22

unless you psychedelics you can have some

11:24

dissociative states i have patients who wake

11:26

up and they say i was the example would be

11:29

car is moving but you're watching it from above

11:32

that's a dissociative state with the waking brain

11:34

psychedelics we can get into that then

11:36

there's the waking brain in general which is you're

11:38

driving you're steering i'm on the tube i'm flying

11:40

here i have a podcast that's really driven by

11:43

a collection of structures called the executive network that

11:46

would be like saying you know parts of the front

11:48

low parts of the pride of low parts of the

11:50

reptilian brain it's not one spot it's

11:52

uh it's an ensemble that kicks up

11:54

together to perform something it's called task

11:56

on so during the day

11:58

we're mostly task on in the

12:00

dreaming brain, it's mostly

12:02

the imagination network. You're creating,

12:04

your imagination is running wild.

12:07

That's what's happening there. The experience for

12:09

the person is to truly inhabit that

12:12

space. So the best way to think

12:14

of dreaming is you're in the

12:16

driver's seat of a car you can't control. It's

12:19

lurching all over the place. It's jumping, you're

12:21

on top of a building, you're in some

12:23

awkward social situation. So a car,

12:26

you fully inhabit it. And the reason I'm pointing

12:28

that out is psychedelic

12:31

states, there's an ego dissolution

12:33

that comes from it. So the wisdom

12:35

that might, the insight that might come

12:37

from psychedelics for some patients, some of

12:39

my cancer patients, is from being a

12:41

little bit removed from what's happening. Whereas,

12:44

just stay with me now. And first

12:46

of all, I love this. Because

12:48

it's massive stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I

12:50

want to be- Yeah, yeah, it's very exciting.

12:53

And just a framework so people can say,

12:55

oh, okay, just how can I hang information

12:57

on that, right? Waking brain, dreaming brain. Waking

13:00

brain can also have a psychedelic dissociative state

13:02

where there's an ego dissolution. You're

13:04

not in the driver's seat anymore. You're looking at the car

13:06

from a distance. The dreaming

13:08

brain, you fully inhabit the

13:11

experience. You are central.

13:13

There is no ego dissolution. What

13:16

we're seeing with these fancy machines is

13:18

the default mode network is

13:20

active. Whereas in psychedelic states, you

13:23

might feel like you're in a dreamy state,

13:25

but your default mode network called the

13:28

Imagination Network is dampened. So

13:31

you are able to

13:33

perceive things that

13:35

your waking brain has experienced with

13:37

a step-remove perspective, like for

13:39

my cancer patients, that we must all

13:41

terminal cancer patients or people at the

13:44

end of their journey or struggling with

13:46

a journey, that

13:48

my body made something that's consuming me

13:51

from the inside. They can have an existential

13:53

crisis. And this psychedelics are being explored in

13:55

major centers. And they say, wait a second,

13:58

that they have a sort of connection that we're all. all

14:00

from atoms and we're all cells and this

14:02

must happen at some point. So

14:04

they get a sense of peace from it. That's

14:06

from being able to step away. Whereas dreams

14:09

is you're on a wild ride of where has

14:11

it taken me and what is it for? That's

14:13

the way to understand in my mind. Yeah.

14:16

I guess the interesting thing is that both

14:18

say we actually had Professor David Nutt on

14:20

the podcast a while back talking about psychedelics,

14:22

which was fascinating. And I am on a

14:25

deep dive myself trying to learn as much

14:27

as I can about that. And I guess

14:30

a similarity that I could draw

14:32

from looking at the dream state,

14:34

but also psychedelics is that they

14:36

both could prompt divergent thinking

14:38

for us to look outside of the

14:40

box and to go, oh, wow, I'm

14:42

seeing this from a different angle. Or

14:45

certainly with dreaming, we've seen it within

14:48

within the realms of creativity that people

14:50

have incredible dreams that

14:52

catalyze ideas that then turn

14:54

into something tangible or into

14:56

an action. And

14:59

I guess that reading your book has

15:01

really helped me see the point of

15:03

having dreams that they can really propel

15:05

us in. I mean, they could guide

15:07

us in certain ways, but also in

15:09

the realms of creativity, they seem really

15:11

important. Do you think we should be

15:13

taking dreams more seriously? Absolutely. And

15:16

even if we don't, they're putting in the

15:18

work while we sleep that keep us adaptive

15:20

and creative. I think they feed the aha

15:22

moments. Just to go backward on

15:24

what you said, I love what you pointed out there. Divergent

15:28

thinking is a luxury. So when you're

15:30

under threat, you actually don't want divergent

15:33

thinking. You want maximal task on executive

15:35

network, all the things you think about,

15:37

like, is this silhouette a

15:39

threat or not? Getting to a job interview

15:42

on time takes executive thinking,

15:44

right? You want logic, you want reason,

15:46

you want timetables. So we need that. What

15:49

I would say to people is when we're

15:51

not in that mode, it's not like

15:53

the brain is hibernating. It's always on.

15:56

It's just a ratio or a balance

15:58

or percentage of task outward. task on

16:01

executive function. And when

16:03

things are under control, or you're driving on

16:05

a country road, or you're shaving, and you're

16:07

just performing a light task that doesn't require

16:09

a lot of attention, the imagination network fills

16:11

up the space in the brain. It's

16:14

either 51%, 52% executive network, because

16:19

you've got something in front of you, you've

16:21

got to get done, or things are under

16:23

control, then the imagination network dials up. It's

16:26

never on off. And that

16:28

balance is very important. When

16:30

the imagination network, like in mind wandering,

16:32

is dialed up a little bit, an

16:35

executive network is not so

16:37

heavily relied upon, if you will, right? There's

16:39

just shifts here. It's modulation, not on off.

16:42

That's when you have divergent thinking. And

16:45

that's the luxury, is to have

16:47

divergent thinking. So for creativity, now,

16:50

I like to think about measurements, and then my opinion

16:53

or conclusion. So a lot of times, I think people

16:55

are mixing up things. Studies show, I don't know what

16:57

that means. I mean, I know

16:59

measurements. I know. It's really a context. When

17:01

you hear a percentage and you think, what? Am

17:04

I in my percentage? Am I not? Well, how

17:06

do they measure that? Yeah, yeah. Did you

17:08

really get a million people to go out

17:10

to nature, and then everybody else, and

17:13

then the rest of the time when they

17:15

weren't in nature, they had the exact same

17:17

lives, so you could discern the difference? So

17:19

I like to go through measurements and then

17:21

interpretation. So when we just talked about creativity

17:23

right there, they started putting people in machines

17:25

where they can tell this executive network and

17:27

imagination network because there are different splotches on

17:29

the surface of the brain. Like

17:32

if you flattened out the globe, you would say it's

17:34

like Australia, Asia,

17:36

and Central America would Throb up

17:38

just a little bit in activity when

17:40

it's the Imagination network. So You can

17:43

see the patterns, if you will. When

17:45

They look at poetry construction or book

17:47

cover designs, they realize creativity, you need

17:49

both.. You Need those divergent thinking to

17:51

have those wild ideas and fresh ideas,

17:53

But then you also need executive thinking

17:55

to make sure it's a good idea,

17:57

an applicable idea. So Creativity in action.

18:00

Is a little bit like what our

18:02

brains do naturally in a twenty four

18:04

hour period. So for me now my

18:07

opinion is. That. Yes, the

18:09

dreaming brain. Liberate Divergent

18:11

thinking it's hyper emotional and

18:14

hyper visual would dampen logic.

18:16

Okay, that's measurable dreaming brain

18:18

state Cf And then what

18:21

happens is. We. Then

18:23

you start looking that not my dream or

18:25

your dream but ten thousand dreams. Easy with

18:27

a second. This is the part that I

18:29

just like ours like took my breath when

18:31

it's. Very few people when you

18:33

ask about ten thousand dreams surveys, questionnaires, waking

18:35

people up in sleep labs have done that

18:37

for decades now what I do but when

18:39

you look at it. And

18:41

you say? Very. Few people say

18:43

they do math. Venue: On

18:46

the right next to A you

18:48

put up the picture of the

18:50

dreaming brain and you see that

18:52

the executive network which is used

18:54

for logic in math is damping

18:56

down a little bit and I

18:58

said what his Second: the patterns

19:00

of brain activation and d activation

19:02

can explain what people are saying

19:04

about dreams and that they tend

19:06

to be hyper emotional. Falling dreams

19:09

are consistent across century, out across

19:11

cultures. T Falling out, being chased

19:13

Nightmares An erotic dreams universal. Mass

19:15

is very rarely mentioned in when scientists do

19:17

talk about it's always a visual things like

19:20

the snake eating his tail. So the first

19:22

thing in his book I see chapter one

19:24

is like where to place where some of

19:26

the things that we've been talking about my

19:28

dreams for so long from for even like

19:31

Aristotle Lucid dreams now there's some signs we

19:33

can say hey that's backed by rigorous science

19:35

or that might sound woo but actually best

19:37

not or that thought. We took it for

19:39

granted that a dreams or or dream symbolic

19:42

a bridge could mean the same thing for

19:44

everybody but a cat. Because our emotions

19:46

are popping up different things individually

19:48

and must be understood within the

19:50

context, That's what I like about

19:52

it. And then back to point

19:54

my creativity. if our brains only

19:56

performed. The routine habits of

19:58

the day and efficiently. In the brain

20:01

and energy hog small but five kilograms,

20:03

twenty percent the blood flow to wants

20:05

to be efficient and it's patterns beginning

20:07

to work and it doesn't want to

20:09

be completely activated every time to do

20:11

some routine tasks. Rights. But if it

20:13

only did those things much like if

20:15

you know points, dinner arms a little

20:17

bit, it would contract. Innocent.

20:19

Use it or lose it. You know

20:21

atrophy. All those concepts that apply for

20:23

the for the flesh, for our bodies.

20:25

the also apply for the flesh of

20:27

the mind, the human brain. So I

20:30

thing with dreaming is a while. I

20:32

think why we dream is to keep

20:34

our minds open. It's to engage the

20:36

recesses, the neurons and the capacities of

20:38

our brain in mind. So they there

20:40

for every day and they're there for

20:42

us to be adaptive. If the world

20:44

were to suddenly change otherwise we would

20:46

become constrained and over fitted with the

20:48

habits of our day. So it's

20:50

actually just like, just like creativity.

20:53

Somehow. The twenty four

20:55

cycle of the human brain gets things

20:57

done and one is not getting things

20:59

done. It's opening up doors and connection

21:02

to perception and experience. To me, That's.

21:04

My opinion, but there's a lot of

21:07

different glimpses of scientific information I can

21:09

point out that would connect that to

21:11

support my opinion. More a thing we

21:13

can probably see from our a nice

21:16

experience that there is an element of

21:18

preparation for the next day or more

21:20

says to communists with a classic case

21:22

of an anxiety dreams in one exotic.

21:24

Coming up for a sporting event everybody. And

21:27

public speaking it's highly likely that

21:29

he will have a drain the

21:31

his face around that set themselves

21:33

and that that is perhaps the

21:35

brain that hence to prepare you

21:37

for any of the outcomes that

21:39

could happen in the unknown which

21:41

were also of terrified. About a private

21:43

rehearsal. Ah, I'm a safe reversal of

21:45

where you don't act out your dreams.

21:47

So those are some other ideas. Again,

21:49

those are ideas. The maybe it's a

21:52

threat rehearsal, maybe it's are nocturnal therapists.

21:54

I like the broader idea of that.

21:56

It's all of those was not hold

21:58

dreaming to a constraint a thing we

22:00

were not waking life right. Dreaming as

22:02

wild as. F right? So.

22:05

What's. The function of that's why

22:07

would. Why? Would. Sleep.

22:10

Be so important that it makes his

22:12

lie down and exposes us to threat.

22:15

We can go dared to without it.

22:17

but it the sleep pressure will build.

22:19

What is happening during sleep is not

22:21

really my liver and hearts that sleeping.

22:23

I did transplant surgery for while we

22:25

put a liver from somebody to have

22:28

somebody else when or reconnect the nerves,

22:30

we sleep for our brains. Our brains

22:32

drive sleep. The what are they do

22:34

when they're sleeping? They're not chilling out

22:36

their dreams. Are you actually say there's

22:38

perhaps? More activity in brain of are asleep

22:40

before we have direct thing I'm ready. Me

22:43

always ask me this know saw this this

22:45

this is this is synonymous with this is

22:47

a bit of the society. This is measurements

22:49

Again I'm going to your story about how

22:51

this is all figured out at Me Arts

22:53

So so me put a bunch electrodes me

22:55

my one hundred twenty years ago on the

22:57

surface of the scalp and Co just on

22:59

the outside and they could measure electricity those

23:01

called and eg and detected during the day

23:04

melee look their the squiggles you know your

23:06

brain has. It generates enough electricity like an

23:08

electric eel. But hundred billion of them

23:10

to accident light up a dim bulb. That's

23:12

what we're detecting. We put electrodes on the

23:14

surface of the heart. People know like oh

23:16

that's an ecology and we know what the

23:18

electrical signature looks like. Rights we've seen on

23:20

television for a long time. Yes, we put

23:22

ninety six of those on the scalp. You

23:25

get a different electable signature less call them

23:27

eg. at that time with they didn't do

23:29

was paid tension that when the person was

23:31

sleeping. There was still electricity.

23:34

And so it took another ten, twenty thirty

23:36

years for them to figure out the brain

23:38

is not. Sleeping. When

23:40

we sleep. The. Electricity is

23:42

processed. When. We

23:44

sleep, the metabolic activity is happening while

23:47

we sleep, and then the squiggles of

23:49

the electricity that were recorded like the

23:51

brains of you know, Lexus electrical patterns.

23:54

There. were so similar to waiting

23:56

not through an entire stages of

23:59

sleep with through certain stages of

24:01

sleep where we vividly dream, they

24:03

actually labeled it paradoxical sleep. The

24:05

brain electricity while sleeping and dreaming

24:07

is indiscernible from the brain electricity

24:09

while you and I are talking

24:11

right now. Wow. And I thought, wait

24:13

a second, right? So if

24:16

they're the same, and back to

24:18

your question, but you know, Rahul's

24:20

here telling me like the executive network

24:22

is dampened, so

24:24

then something else must be heightened to

24:26

make it even. And that's the

24:28

emotional network called the imagination network slash

24:30

limbic network. So as much

24:32

as our logic is dampened to keep things

24:35

equal, emotions are heightened.

24:38

And what I say to people is, wait a second, they're

24:41

heightened and this is a measurement to

24:43

a degree that we can't get to

24:45

during waking life. No matter how hard

24:47

you feel something, your waking brain

24:49

just can't dial it up that hot. But

24:53

in your dreaming brain, the emotional

24:55

networks and the emotional systems can

24:57

get activated, not every time,

24:59

but at their max top speed, they

25:01

go higher than waking life. And to

25:03

me, that's a

25:06

portal like that. So whatever that

25:08

generates, whatever my hyper emotional brain,

25:11

dreaming brain generates, I wanna pay attention to

25:13

that. Because I don't have that, I'm

25:16

not saying it's gonna be good, I'm not saying it's gonna be

25:18

bad, I'm saying it's gonna make sense to me. But

25:21

that's a brain state that

25:23

I simply don't exhibit

25:25

during my waking life. And

25:28

so the dreams to try to reflect upon,

25:31

of course, if you have a speech and you show up naked,

25:33

you don't have to interpret that, you know what that is. But

25:36

the hyper emotional, hyper visual

25:38

dreams that leave you a

25:40

bit stirred, I

25:43

think that's the process of self examination because

25:45

they're coming from a place your brain can't

25:47

even get to while you're awake. And

25:49

that's the power I think. So we don't

25:52

necessarily need to look at our dream dictionaries from

25:54

the 90s to try and interpret what does it

25:56

mean to dream about snakes or teeth falling out.

25:58

But what we can do. is

26:01

take a look at that dream and obviously

26:03

dream journaling is a really brilliant way to

26:05

do this so you can wake up and

26:07

quickly write it down before those memories fade.

26:10

And to then examine that and say what is

26:12

this trying to tell me about myself? Not some sort

26:14

of weird dream interpretation but what

26:17

is this highlighting for me? Are we

26:19

looking here at what I'm

26:21

scared of? What I'm suppressing? These kinds

26:23

of notions perhaps? Well, yeah,

26:25

right away a bridge in your mind in a

26:28

dream and a bridge in my mind and dream

26:30

could mean very different things. So we can establish-

26:32

With more emotion. Well, it's individual. It's

26:35

your context. That might be the beginning of something

26:37

for me. It might be the end of something.

26:39

It depends on what's going on in my waking

26:41

brain, right? So the waking brain is feeding the

26:43

dream life and so the dream life is conjuring

26:45

a bridge and means something different for me than

26:47

it does for you. It can't ever

26:49

be the same. Number two is dream

26:53

journaling. I'm just taking apart a little bit about what

26:55

you said. The surprising thing

26:58

about trying to remember

27:00

your dreams, trying to dream more, as some

27:02

people have been publishing outside as you opened

27:04

with, reading this thing made me dream more

27:06

in those little periods. People are like, how does that happen? Because

27:09

it's a biological and electrophysiological

27:12

phenomenon. When we take a placebo,

27:14

we know there's no active chemical in it but

27:16

we feel better because the pharmacy in our mind

27:18

has released it. So thought

27:20

can activate other thoughts and

27:22

other behaviors. Similarly, wanting to

27:25

dream, trying to remember your

27:27

dreams through dream journaling

27:29

or whatever the process is. For me, it's a notes app.

27:32

I go to my notes app before I go

27:34

to my email. Once I have my email, my

27:36

executive network is on and that slippery memory of

27:38

my dream life is gone, right? By design. And

27:41

so when people say, okay, now

27:43

the dream to go after, in my opinion,

27:45

right? It can't be a

27:47

symbol for both of us. It's

27:51

a hyper emotional state. If you try

27:53

to remember your dreams, you're better at it. People have reported

27:56

this. The One to go after is a hyper

27:58

emotional one. What

28:00

that is is. It. Can

28:02

stay with me here. Sometimes.

28:05

It can confirm what you're thinking during the

28:07

day like I guess we just gave. I'm

28:10

stressed out, I'm stressed out of my dreams.

28:12

Ah, it's Am at the end of my

28:14

life and my dreams are company me with

28:16

the thoughts and reconciliation with old people and

28:18

lovers. My life I'm pregnant, am having dreams

28:20

of my legs rolling over in bed with

28:22

the baby. I sometimes they just directly company,

28:24

but what if. What? You're

28:27

experiencing in your dream life in

28:29

that hyper emotional state that you

28:31

cannot have is actually a harbinger.

28:33

a red flag for something you

28:35

have any months recognized about yourself

28:37

during the day and nothing is

28:39

going to happen every time. But

28:41

what if it were a psychological

28:43

thermometer and exploring the high promotional

28:46

components of you're dreaming might be

28:48

just a different look at how

28:50

you're seeing yourself? Cobra not cope

28:52

with the challenges of your waking

28:54

life. Nice big statement. But

28:56

I think it's possible. And

28:59

if it's not possible every

29:01

time by knowing today that

29:03

your brain has an activated

29:06

limbic system and imagination system

29:08

more than can ever be

29:10

achieved during the waking life,

29:12

then just. See.

29:14

The thoughts and emotions and

29:17

experiencing that brain state is

29:19

creating and reflect upon it.

29:21

Dissected. Considerate. Ignore it. A

29:23

try. To find some connections will be waking

29:26

life or not. And the most practical

29:28

example, as if nightmares come to you

29:30

unannounced once in a while. That's normal

29:32

if you have a pattern of increasing

29:34

nightmares. And. They come out

29:36

of the blue. Some people feel well during

29:38

the day and be have these nightmares come

29:40

through. I think they should be asked about

29:42

like temperature. I think a nightmare pattern can

29:44

be a clue to things you may or

29:47

may not recognize about yourself during the day.

29:49

So. I think that's where

29:51

the high promotional brains the dreamy brain offers

29:53

you access to your own life. The may

29:55

be a therapist can't because it's your own.

29:57

It's your mind, your own creation and he

29:59

makes. The accent we are so

30:01

heavily destructive know everyday life we not

30:03

going to take note of every single

30:06

day I'm feeling trigger will rebel flag

30:08

feeling of because we constantly being pulled

30:10

over here listening to this taking advice

30:13

from somebody I see what we starts

30:15

do is this trust our own opinion

30:17

about our own lives because it's so

30:19

noisy so actually I think it's a

30:22

really good way if we can analyze

30:24

those dreams and all right bespoke way

30:26

and know and a puzzles inform them

30:29

but also what. We're missing about ourselves.

30:31

Not feels too farfetched a tool I

30:33

think you mean. Like the Pat accent got

30:35

a new think is called bespoke dream analysis.

30:37

The only person who can do it is

30:39

you Yes I love that and would I

30:42

would say is. Again, For

30:44

for the listener Smithson, this is

30:46

not some guaranteed thing like ten

30:48

thousand steps. I mean we're talking

30:50

about dreams and dreaming, but if

30:53

you can walk we was an

30:55

understanding. It's that some of the

30:57

ideas here, some of the exploration

30:59

is driven by modern neuroscience. I

31:01

think for me I'm that's empowering

31:03

and. The expiration of

31:06

dreams, Is something that to

31:08

also reminds me that were not totally

31:10

in control that their drivers insiders and

31:12

if everybody's had those dreams us hope

31:14

you're like oh my gosh utter you

31:16

want to remember that little share that

31:18

with anyway right? And then we go

31:21

butter day and were highly functional people.

31:23

but. That's not a glitch. The

31:25

Dreaming Green is not a

31:28

glitch, is serving a purpose

31:30

is metabolic expensive. There's rich

31:32

electricity and. Not remembering our

31:34

dreams I believe is part of a design. Otherwise

31:36

are waking life and dream life would be confused.

31:39

Yeah and they are some patients that have that

31:41

issue. With.

31:43

All those things in mind. The things I've

31:45

done, Are recognized sleep

31:47

and dream sleep exit or interesting

31:50

blurry states that we can get

31:52

into that. Things I've done is

31:54

if I have an emotional dream.

31:57

I. Don't try to ignore it. Now I us

31:59

I welcome. You're. Gonna, you're gonna take

32:01

of mine space because I caught a glimpse

32:03

of myself I can't get elsewhere. Oh and

32:05

so for those people who are trying to

32:07

be advised level or those people are just

32:09

wanna get a bed because are depressed it's.

32:12

In. In this pursued a wellness. Those

32:14

resources are there for all of us.

32:16

Yeah to free. They're hyper personalize. It's

32:18

introspection driven by your own brain. Off

32:20

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32:53

today. As

32:57

right Donald one of the lines and us as

32:59

the end of the first chapter. Dreams are on

33:02

nightly dice of wonder I saw yes it will

33:04

an amazing gift if we could and like a

33:06

sense reading back it is high and all of

33:08

that because it was on my mind and I

33:10

see what I think safe to say thing and.

33:14

I'm really great to be with the

33:16

hair humid dealing with constant nightmares which

33:18

is a horrible saying. Whether it's due

33:20

to Ptsd or you just and negatively

33:22

been you're having a horrible and triggering

33:24

recurring nightmares is that you can do

33:26

something about here. and this was a

33:29

meta Me letting this the first time

33:31

that you can do imagery repairs or

33:33

therapy to help actually change the narrative

33:35

sites taught us about how this works

33:37

and what you might do if you

33:39

find yourself in. A second sounds wonderful.

33:42

You go back to the origin of

33:44

these nightmares. Children dream of monsters. One

33:46

him, never seen a monster. Nightmares are

33:48

a product of your imagination. As we

33:51

discussed, Imagination Network is liberated and dreaming

33:53

and what people are finding and what

33:55

I've reported in your imagery. Rest of

33:57

their be with therapists that you can.

34:00

Actually rehearse before falling asleep and

34:02

some people would lucid dreaming in

34:04

the nightmare rarely but reported that

34:06

you can shape the direction of

34:09

your nightmare by working with a

34:11

therapist and rehearsing different imagined endings

34:13

that then start to happen within

34:15

that nightmare again. Doesn't happen all

34:18

the time. Know with just the

34:20

fact that that can happen like

34:22

Reese script. Ah, a nightmare

34:24

that was partially are you Control Are

34:27

totally, Are you control? And that. There

34:30

are. Rigorous. Reports about this

34:32

and he kept measure that but would

34:34

they are people who voted therapist they

34:36

practices and they say I feel better

34:39

I'm doing better and to me again

34:41

that's empowering. Returning back to the seems

34:43

that this imagine in mind. Is

34:46

a double edged sword. Sometimes he gives you

34:49

nightmares, sometimes it gives you a creep. Genius.

34:51

Just like are waking thoughtless, not try to

34:53

put things into too tight canisters. Waking thoughts

34:55

can me all over the place. Dreaming thoughts

34:58

can be all of a place. Just recognize.

35:01

That in your day is not

35:03

just the waking brain that is

35:05

playing a role, that that and

35:07

twenty four hour cycle two thirds,

35:09

one third you're dreaming brain is

35:11

doing something call it subconscious, call

35:13

it homeostasis. But it's not an

35:15

irrelevant time of the day and

35:17

the question becomes, how can we

35:19

seated a bit? I can we

35:21

hold on a woods offering a

35:23

bit? How can we redirected a

35:25

bit? How can we flirt with

35:27

it a bit cause it's elusive.

35:29

It's dreaming. But. They are

35:31

things like imagery, rehearsal therapy that point

35:33

out that. It's. Surprisingly.

35:37

Can be influenced in are Gonna Rain

35:39

and and Are Gonna Send It In

35:41

a Different Direction Just on demand. That.

35:46

You can influence your dreams. You can influence

35:48

your negative dreams to become a positive. Some

35:50

people when they have certain dreams week up

35:52

with a better emotional aspect, Creative people can

35:55

see their dreams like Salvador Dali did with

35:57

the sleep and periods. Now that we have

35:59

rigorous. That shows that the electricity of

36:01

waking brain and dreamy brain as she

36:04

overlap between that ten fifteen minute window

36:06

of a prick a like me. I

36:08

like seeing the measurement. Yeah, that confirms

36:11

Woodall he was doing your Addison was

36:13

doing or Christopher Nolan in Inception And

36:15

then when there are measurements, it's okay.

36:17

I'm not saying everything has to be

36:20

proven, but when they are measurements, I

36:22

like taking the pieces that are out

36:24

there. The brain scans the reports and

36:27

saying, oh, that's interesting universal dreams Everybody

36:29

has nightmares. Oh well, let them more

36:31

gas. And I are going back three

36:33

centuries as low as are the same. like

36:35

we rarely dream about social media row task

36:38

and in a stateless in the bed where

36:40

where we should we still basic in the

36:42

terms of the scenes that were applying and

36:44

with a coach really well that might. May

36:47

be Went from a horse and carriage to

36:49

like of electric car and you're still

36:51

having dreams a t falling out yet or

36:53

something that's com and driven from ah you

36:56

know it's inherited from our ancestors the the

36:58

brains. Up there there's

37:00

a thing called cognitive archaeology

37:02

or evolutionary psychology. This is

37:04

my just starve physical attributes

37:06

that we inherit. We inherit

37:08

our approach to thinking. We

37:10

inherit. Ah, I'm potentially

37:13

or pattern of dreaming. so

37:15

a second we're inheriting dreams

37:17

or ancestors. he's completely gone.

37:19

Authorize Know. But nightmares cluster

37:21

in families. And

37:23

t. Falling out? Don't. That's.

37:26

A That's a pattern lot of people have

37:28

to fine. Audrey Lotta people have falling from

37:30

the sky dreams and that happen for centuries.

37:32

but when you branch out. Families.

37:35

You can see nightmare disorders clustering

37:37

drawn to browse and so I

37:39

don't have an answer for that,

37:41

but I just want to leave

37:44

people with this fascination the your

37:46

inheriting arm, thoughts and dreams and.

37:48

He had the cognitive function is coming

37:51

down from your ancestors obvious he's molded

37:53

and modified but it's not just were

37:55

born with a fresh brain as a

37:57

the eye color came from mom and.

38:00

But the brain is completely like a

38:02

brand new like tablet to work on.

38:04

Know your your inheriting. We know that

38:06

for mental health but then why not?

38:09

Disposition to risk taking? Why not. Dreaming.

38:12

And so these are. these are the kind of things I

38:14

didn't think about. You know, until the right in his birth.

38:17

Say the same if we are. And.

38:19

Let's talk about it really plain

38:22

speaking in Harrison Dreams is that

38:24

more Gg learned behavior And what?

38:26

We experience from our parents, grandparents.

38:28

Or is that Dna and that

38:31

is just the brains eve? Inherited

38:33

that soft your mom's hafeez. As I

38:35

was so does the sewn into that that it

38:37

became Chapter Two Nightmares Could The first thing when

38:40

I was so when I was doing was in

38:42

Los Angeles. I would go to different places and

38:44

I would Just like you said just have a

38:46

conversation. The first time I bring up like a

38:48

I'm thinking about tackling the size of dreams. A

38:50

lot of people were like well. Nightmares.

38:53

Gotta be a glitch. You. Know

38:55

just that you're in a pub? You somewhere

38:57

that suits you? Know the. Sometimes

38:59

adding too much academics to it

39:01

can make the topic. Lose.

39:04

it's sort of core. yeah as a just

39:06

talk interact with people we all dream. Though

39:09

I won't bore you with whatever we get

39:11

into man, but you know Rod agrees with

39:13

what is that about? And the nightmares. Why

39:15

do we need those you tommy dreamer? Useful

39:18

gone. Why do we have nightmares? So that's

39:20

why sap to to. I wanted to take

39:22

on of the hot the big concepts first

39:24

and and your point about inheriting. I

39:27

don't when I would say to you is this if he

39:29

would just give me a moment on this one to. Much.

39:35

Two said we need nightmares. By.

39:38

Breaking down neighbors into two categories the

39:40

one we talked about earlier years: adult

39:42

onset nightmares That's a different category that's

39:44

linked to stress and sometimes a warning

39:47

flag of stress you may not recognize

39:49

during you distracted day as you point

39:51

out really elites that when we leave

39:53

over there, why do the nicest children

39:55

who have never seen a monster. I

39:59

mean the all. Around that age

40:01

this a pattern to universal

40:03

dreams. Nightmares arrive for children.

40:06

All. Children. Four. Five Six Seven,

40:08

Eight years of age. And you don't drink a full

40:10

of s right? You don't dream as any Bombay.

40:13

While it's hard to say you know, but

40:15

when they start talking. I.

40:17

Used are asking the my dreams have some family signed

40:19

up their kids for. You know what you dream about

40:22

from like from the youngest age all the way.

40:24

Twenty five is called longitude on say so you have

40:26

some interesting patterns the measurements there for us to study

40:28

but. When. They start talking. You know

40:30

their report, the these papers out there reporting.

40:32

they're like oh, it's a blanket. Oh it's

40:35

Italian out the table. It's not a dynamic.

40:37

In development. just think of it as as well. what

40:39

is he talking about Will we learned to walk and

40:42

talk by were not born with them. Will.

40:44

This going on where you my you

40:46

mind is being cultivated that you're not

40:48

just born with. And so as you're

40:50

learning to walk before you talk and

40:53

and then all the way up to

40:55

adolescence, right? That's. We. Can

40:57

all agree there's something built them that

40:59

shaping our minds and adolescences appeared with

41:01

brain doesn't change but the mind definitely

41:04

does rights. The brain scans look the

41:06

same before and after puberty for the

41:08

most part. The purses different herbs of

41:10

we leave those the if you accept

41:12

that from me then what I'm saying

41:15

is. The pattern of

41:17

that the pattern of dreaming shows that

41:19

the mind is being cultivated. The first

41:21

thing that happens is of that three

41:24

sons is is. Why? Do

41:26

we always have the tone kids? Oh no

41:28

it's okay Johnny or whatever their name is

41:30

a good so gay or you know my

41:32

son's a like ah it was only a

41:34

dream. Said. To me is

41:36

just a conversation with. There's no measurement

41:38

for this, but it seems like waking

41:40

thoughts and dreaming thoughts may be blurred

41:43

to the mind of a child. Until

41:46

nightmares arrive. And. They

41:48

get startled like okay, there's something internal

41:50

and external. There's something waking thought and

41:53

night thoughts that actually happens at the

41:55

same time as another cognitive development called

41:57

a theory of mind. The which is.

42:00

Basically. The. Ability to

42:02

anticipate and think about what others may

42:04

be feeling. Mind reading: Maybe your uncle

42:06

a smiling, but that doesn't mean they

42:08

have a benevolent intense how interest. so

42:11

bad that all that all happens at

42:13

the same time. Imagination, the ability to

42:15

sense us versus other reading people's true

42:18

intentions, not just going by. Ah, outward

42:20

actions. All of that happens at the

42:22

same time and nightmares arrive. And so

42:25

for me, that can't be a coincidence.

42:27

Another measure that I can. See them

42:29

in my own kids that they i'm other

42:31

night terrorists probably about the same age and

42:33

you're like wait what as as something I

42:36

am I getting something wrong here is of

42:38

haven't I think like that was questioning themselves

42:40

as parents best is a developmental. Progress. And

42:42

and then nightmares for overwhelming majority go

42:44

where a guy. kids really good nightmare

42:46

disorder like adults get it like you

42:48

have nightmares the next day is messed

42:50

up. Yeah, kids like monsters wake up

42:52

at the next. The elected to do

42:54

hits a there's a developmental thing going

42:56

on. I think nightmares are needed for

42:58

the cultivation of the human mind. In.

43:01

Children And similarly, I think erotic

43:04

dreams arrive before the erotic act

43:06

and there's something there that is

43:09

the cultivation of the mind. And

43:11

the simplest example I can give

43:13

you as. You know the

43:15

nerves in our fingers? They. Don't.

43:18

Change once we go through puberty

43:20

or once we have erotic dreams.

43:22

The the capacity to feel sensuality.

43:25

To. Field Erotic Touch goes by the same

43:27

nerves in your hands. It's the brain

43:29

that is chains and the pattern that

43:31

I'm seeing. It's incomplete or going to

43:34

get a lot more information. I'll be

43:36

back. You know, handful years from now

43:38

you'll be like wait, this was right,

43:40

This wrong. I'm not here to safeguard

43:42

all figured out, but erotic dreams arrive

43:45

before puberty. Erotic dreams

43:47

happen after Menopause arrived. Dreams happen

43:49

patients with chemical castration for bostic

43:51

answer that's a cognitive thing and

43:53

are all it all at all.

43:55

Rise around the same time. And.

43:59

And. The changes in the brain

44:01

that allow for sensuality happen after is

44:03

not like the brain said, I'm ready

44:05

to be turned our ass and then

44:07

erotic dreams arrive. How interested in my

44:09

dreams arrive in the brain says I

44:12

can feel it now and to me

44:14

that's got to be linked to someone.

44:16

I mean most people listening to this would

44:18

have had a dream where the having sex

44:20

with someone they said in a work colleague

44:23

and could be that best friend. What does

44:25

it say about desire? Exciting. keep her away

44:27

top feeling either City burly and oh really

44:29

unnerved an unsettled like oh god I'm gonna

44:32

have to sit up. Has Mrs so mortified

44:34

us? Does it speak to a hidden desire

44:36

out? What is it telling us. Harm.

44:39

Or can't answer that question without just

44:41

offering you few puzzle pieces and I

44:43

think people can put it together for

44:45

themselves. Nightmares. And erotic

44:48

dreams are universal dreams. We see

44:50

universal and in in medical statistics

44:52

you know, like maybe two? Ninety

44:55

Four Emmys? Everybody century the happen

44:57

across cultures. They they arrive

44:59

before the erotic act. Almost

45:02

like a trainee fuel the brain

45:04

changes. Without. Ever having

45:06

sex, the brain is prepared to

45:08

feel sensuality. These patterns that happens

45:10

Then the great majority of Roddick

45:13

dreams in service and reports there's

45:15

infidelity, Like. That's like eighty eighty

45:17

something for seventy eighty. Like it's a lot

45:19

of infidelity. so what does that mean? Boom

45:21

do. But that's up to the been as

45:23

questions as as bc haven't ninos thing about

45:25

your eggs lights it is a mean something.

45:28

I mean I think there's some common sense

45:30

to it if. If. You're secretly

45:32

desiring. You're actually have a dream, but your ex.

45:34

Maybe that that means one thing. If you're

45:36

in a great relationship, you're over. Somebody have

45:38

a dream about your ex. I don't think

45:40

it's a layton desire and then if you're

45:42

not a good relationship, you have a dream.

45:44

my legs and leads to fighting. You know?

45:46

I mean I think these are more relationship

45:48

issues, but. I think erotic

45:50

dreams cultivate. A

45:53

deep and broad desire.

45:55

interestingly. Ah I think

45:57

the shape the brain because the way they

45:59

arrive in. Lastingly. In.

46:01

The reports, the people to whom this desire

46:03

is you know, stand it if you will.

46:05

They tend to be a small group of

46:08

people. It has to be people around you.

46:10

It's kind of for as a group do

46:12

might be repellent boss in my be like

46:14

on apres and what's going on I can't

46:17

make sense of that but it's it's It's

46:19

a while back at but with a narrow

46:21

group of people. ah and there's I can

46:23

explain that other than with. You

46:26

know, but maybe just a wildly

46:28

but evolutionary psychology like some people.

46:31

There at things that. May. Be our

46:34

ancestors their patterns that were there

46:36

during these bottleneck phenomenons when species

46:38

streak and expand. That maybe erotic

46:40

dreams were feel keeping us within

46:42

the tribe during a population decimation

46:44

or something like that. That's just

46:46

a hypothesis. There's no measurement for

46:48

that, but if you ask me

46:50

why, it's small group of people.

46:53

With. Wilde acts. I like the wild

46:55

acts that many cities like inconsistent

46:57

were dreaming. yeah well as most

46:59

spank you for the eggs you

47:01

for letting me in our be

47:03

creative and by a by the

47:05

small group of people ages and

47:07

I sometimes is awkward and am

47:09

via neurotic dreams. I think most people

47:12

be nodding the headless think I owe

47:14

my like we've allowed them. We are

47:16

in another phenomena: Nice faced with his

47:18

lucid dreaming. Pleasant. Can you explain what

47:20

that is and and your interpretation of

47:22

it? Also why some people can and

47:25

why some people. Can't I can acid last

47:27

one? But it isn't do simple that a lot

47:29

of people lucid dream out. when I see a

47:31

lot. I dunno maybe it's like twenty thirty forty

47:33

percent in me these surveys. When I say that

47:36

it's not as I'm avoiding a number, I'd love

47:38

to see twenty two when more when to saying

47:40

side a third people yeah report lucid dreaming to

47:42

understand lucid dreaming First I thought this was gonna

47:45

this. There's no science for this. Staying in of

47:47

dedicating two chapters in the book to it's the

47:49

some rigorous science to it. So

47:52

we talked about dreaming brain. And

47:55

weekend grain right? To. The two

47:57

distinct brain states. When. You go

47:59

from. Waking to. Sleeping/dreaming

48:02

We go from waking to dreaming. There's

48:04

the sleep entry. period. I this like

48:06

what we talked about that as blurry

48:08

state. We kind of. It's a hybrid

48:11

state. when you wake up, sometimes it

48:13

can be a mismatch and your body

48:15

can be locked down wide awake. That's

48:17

like sleep paralysis. But sleep exit is

48:19

also blurry state. A hybrid state. I'm

48:23

in the middle. Rights.

48:25

Of that's in the fleeing the first five

48:27

minutes into the last five ten minutes of

48:29

a six our sleep session whatever it is

48:32

in the middle as we talked about way

48:34

and earlier in his podcasts. And to sit

48:36

in this discussion is you can have. Are

48:39

you. Can have a sense. Ah

48:41

I'm wait. I'm at in the dream. While

48:44

you're having the dream. Parts

48:46

of the first thing I was like come on

48:48

these people just waking up and pretending like I

48:50

need I need a measurement for this once and

48:53

they can. Those same stickers on the scalp will

48:55

prove the person is. A Sleep

48:57

because sleep spindles. You can't fake

48:59

that measurement. And. Then the

49:01

body is mostly paralyze, but the eyeballs

49:03

can move and they're like through a

49:06

glass window would prove that they're sleeping.

49:08

You got people asking questions and people

49:10

are using morse code with their eyeballs.

49:12

Miles and this is. The. I'm

49:14

looking at this in detail. So Lucid.

49:17

Dreaming is real. He can be measured

49:19

is not just some pretending to be

49:21

awake. And. It's in the middle

49:23

of sleep. It's it's not in

49:25

the beginning, it's a it's not a hybrid

49:27

state that where the transition was a little

49:30

blurry going from waging to dreaming which he

49:32

really larry in which would assume right I

49:34

was I'm. Scuba diving in

49:36

Central South America and him and Mexico

49:38

they have were rivers meet ocean you

49:41

from fresh water salt water. me know

49:43

when your mask is down there gets

49:45

blurry. Literally blurry like you swimming to

49:47

oil for about a meter that he's

49:49

not a sharp line between fresh water

49:52

and salt was not sharp line between

49:54

ah waiting and dreaming. or dreaming and

49:56

waiting. This. Is a bit different. Lucid

49:58

Dreaming in the middle you like. Ah,

50:01

My. Second of network is just. Partially.

50:05

Back up a little bit the You: I'm

50:07

aware I'm in the dream and that's how

50:09

they describe it and for some people began

50:11

to steer the direction of the dream that

50:14

isn't while and. Yeah. It

50:16

is wilde, but there's signs

50:18

that suggests that awareness has

50:20

returned. To the Sleep States.

50:22

So I would say is now rather than

50:24

being in the driver's seat of a car

50:27

you can't control, Maybe that you can have

50:29

temporarily one hand and the wheel you are

50:31

in a dream is still wild and ends.

50:33

but you know, illogical and mostly out of

50:35

control. but there's an awareness and they may

50:38

be a way to directed a bit. And

50:40

that doesn't mean that you're going into waiting

50:42

stay, it just means that. Very good

50:44

a balance and other find that say

50:46

that it on are still asleep Fearlessness

50:49

I just as i ride a. Bike

50:51

rides My Sas lucid dream.

50:54

From reading your back On sent us. I've never

50:56

had wonderful the I can recall and

50:58

I was in a petrol station, a

51:00

gas station, On a

51:03

huge commercial flight was really nice. The

51:05

ground flying and I'll fight battling some

51:07

it does a it crashed into the

51:09

petrol station huge explosions like I'm in

51:11

a film and I'm sprinting like ominous

51:13

of acts and. Movie Visual

51:15

Emotional. I. Was I was terrified

51:17

and then in my head I saw. His

51:20

dream is is okay and I when I

51:22

woke up I was like oh my god

51:24

I think that was a lucid dream. A hundred

51:26

of moment of looted and your. Bucket Us is

51:28

allusive. Three I've never had that distinct said

51:30

during a dream our sights we. I think

51:33

this is a dream. I think this is

51:35

okay because normally don't you just away with

51:37

the drama of and let you say the

51:39

A Mason It was. Phenomenal.

51:41

Is like such a cool experience arms and

51:43

I'll leave it to you if it's good

51:45

or bad or whatever. But and am glad

51:47

it was it was phenomenal Him it's it's

51:50

our on the ice. What I would say

51:52

to that is if for the listeners. Ah,

51:55

I'm lucid dreaming. Is

51:57

you can learn it. It can be induced.

52:00

You to learn and lucid dream and if

52:02

you are a lucid dreamer you can lose

52:04

three more years after we were I got

52:06

measurements for that at some of your high

52:08

for size for that's why to give it

52:10

to chapters going and I think enlisted reason

52:12

I wanna talk about that can be added

52:14

to out of my chapter say I gots

52:16

aren't There is a medicine gland to me

52:18

that we use. As for a neurotransmitter Coliseum

52:20

Polian the original one, not Dobermans, her tone

52:23

and the ones you're familiar with ah I'm.

52:26

If you give a patient that for

52:28

cognitive issues with the skied the medical

52:30

stuff decide. They.

52:33

Report: Lucid Dreaming. Okay,

52:36

Here's the part. You. Double the dose.

52:38

And. The loot now to lucid dreaming

52:41

also goes up. Dose dependent escalation is

52:43

the close as we can get to

52:45

causality. In pharmacology, right?

52:48

So. Drugs. It's.

52:50

It's of. Electro physiologic chemical thing

52:52

in your brain. Lucid dreaming Certain

52:54

drugs can definitely raised the mount

52:56

a Lucid Dreams of person has

52:59

so it's real it's and do

53:01

support of question. I don't want

53:03

to take the drugs but then

53:05

recently. Most same experiments

53:07

were the stickers prove their sleep and

53:09

the eyeballs move left and right, the

53:11

communicating with somebody who's you know with

53:14

with a clipboard in a white jacket.

53:16

I am Maginnis. I'm. They. Put

53:18

people on certain training regimens on how to

53:20

lucid dream more. Usually it's sort of waking

53:22

up an hour earlier and and to stay

53:25

awake as you drifting in and out there.

53:27

Certain sleep disruption, right patterns and people can

53:29

look that up. With.

53:31

That technique. Trying. It

53:34

on a group of people. Going

53:36

to the sleep labs. That. Technique

53:38

showed they were doing more of this eyeball

53:40

communication mile And for me that's important because

53:43

it's not report, it's not a questionnaire like.

53:45

Guy came on his podcast and I'm I'm

53:47

I'm I'm dreaming a lot more of it.

53:49

I believe that, but at some point I'd

53:51

like to see when his. but once and

53:54

when I see it, it really it affects

53:56

me because it's like, ah, I can take

53:58

that to people I guess. Take that

54:00

to people who are skeptical. Yeah, at the

54:02

pub or the petrol station be like look

54:04

with. Don't have a

54:06

gun in their Asli. Their eyeballs are saying

54:09

i'm lucid dreaming Left, right? Yes, Yes, They

54:11

have these that morse code set up and

54:13

that the. Money. The ability

54:15

to do that went up with this

54:17

training. So yes things I want of

54:19

and so people in a splurge on

54:21

their own but there's signs to it's

54:23

it's induce evolved experience you had. And.

54:26

There's proof that it's and do some. Areas into

54:28

school so maybe it's just reading about

54:30

that like it's a did something to

54:32

take sorts of catalyze that that happening

54:35

the first on what about retiring drains

54:37

The thing is probably the thing that

54:39

when that the same of dreams comes

54:41

up in conversation with friends family recurring

54:43

dream seems to be something that is

54:46

that pigs are interests easily. We'll probably

54:48

have one recurring dream is no a

54:50

couple I have one more I'm in

54:52

a house and it's my house space

54:55

not my house and I discover a

54:57

new room. Or to new Rams. Went over

54:59

there and the there is so much excitement

55:01

I'm very lucky my recurring dream has a

55:04

positive. Outcome Amazon in the most and. I

55:06

wake up with this kind of light

55:08

I and I have to refresh have

55:10

been excited I feel and as new

55:12

possibilities is quite is a literal to

55:14

as of interpretation from what I'm experiencing

55:16

and s by probably have it on

55:18

say twice a year and I've had

55:20

it from as far back as I

55:22

can remember. Again, should we be paying

55:24

attention to. Recurring. Dreams. Or

55:26

are they informed by more

55:29

experiencing everyday vassal them or.

55:31

Common or a don't have a

55:33

perfect answer for that. I think

55:36

you raise a good question. Recurring

55:38

Nightmares And recurring dreams? What they

55:40

mean. There isn't a lot of

55:42

science or lot of exploration. Ah,

55:44

map because you're sort of. The.

55:47

Brain on a certain electrical loop. So

55:49

the first thing I described to about

55:51

an hour ago was this tickling the

55:53

surface of the brain and there was

55:55

a recurring dream like him, but we

55:57

are finding that dreaming in general But.

56:00

Recurring dreams, nightmares in particular

56:02

there like. Like setting

56:04

up a set of dominoes. It's.

56:06

Just a little tickle. Electricity can

56:08

set up some pathways. That.

56:11

Generate this recurring nightmare. Recurring nightmares

56:13

are a loop of electrical activity

56:15

that gets set off in the

56:18

brain. not unlike i'm just Lose

56:20

comparison to a seizure. A

56:22

runaway train that does it's own

56:25

things once it's triggered or sparked.

56:27

So recurring dreams and recurring nightmares

56:29

To me is, I don't have.

56:32

Something. In safe would

56:34

offer about are they meaning for not

56:36

I'll leave that to the listener and

56:38

the person is ebbing those dreams but

56:40

he do point have something difference that

56:42

the dreaming brain may have it's own

56:44

memory system. Let me be bold, hear

56:46

loud because it's got to have it's

56:49

own memory system. Because some patients with

56:51

severe dementia still have sharp dreams it's

56:53

got to have on a practical level

56:55

it's own memory system because people and

56:57

I have you get up, you go

56:59

the bathroom, The. You're awake mouth for

57:01

the most part and the you lie down he

57:03

slipped back in a dream. Said. There

57:06

may be some dreaming

57:08

capacities. That. Have access to

57:10

memory sort of my recurrent react And

57:12

so that's how I flirt with an

57:15

offer that there's a there's something that

57:17

suggest that the dreaming mind can access

57:19

parts of the brain not just being

57:21

hyper emotional as we said I just

57:24

a unique marine states but may be

57:26

able to open up doors that dad

57:28

the waking brain cats and I'll give

57:30

you some measurements and hard evidence for

57:32

that and that comes from brain degeneration.

57:35

with Parkinson's Disease, This one blew my

57:37

mind. It's not just as Aziz of

57:39

Rigidity. And movement. It's rigidity and being

57:41

able to speak and thought. And a

57:43

small group of people men in their

57:45

fifties has something called ran behavior disorder.

57:47

People can look it up but it's

57:49

I call it dream and admin behavior

57:51

and what happens is they usually a

57:53

fight or they're fleeing something and than.

57:56

When they wake up, the bed partners waking them up there

57:58

actually fighting with their bed. Partner I'm. I'm

58:01

so the acting out the dream. Those people.

58:04

When. They're acting out there dream.

58:08

In the daytime their movements might

58:10

be rigid. But

58:13

when they're acting out the

58:15

dream, Their. Movements are fluid.

58:18

For. That moment, the Parkinson. Parkinsonian.

58:21

Rigidities not there when they talk

58:23

during the day with Parkinson's and

58:25

their voices. Stifled.

58:28

When. They're screaming during dream an

58:30

act of behavior on the voices

58:33

are loud and phone. Mass.

58:36

Media see some fancy you people can

58:38

look up dream and aggro behavior and

58:41

ran behavior disorder cousins and this this

58:43

movement of fluidity for Parkinson's patients only

58:45

one they're acting up their dream is

58:47

something wonderful for people. Look up his

58:49

cop paradoxical can nieces incredible via I

58:51

write what as thou was icicle because

58:53

the should be kept One is how

58:56

they fight it's nobody's heard obstacle can

58:58

he says. His movement? that just

59:00

doesn't make sense that he should be able to

59:02

do it. Only one is. only one is driven

59:04

by the dreaming mind. And Sony

59:06

Tom A recurring dreams and these sort

59:08

of things. It brings me back to

59:11

that there are some capacities in the

59:13

brain that only the dreaming mind remove

59:15

the can can access to human brain

59:17

and mind have access to. but boldly,

59:20

there's at least one example is one

59:22

unicorn where the dreaming brain can command

59:24

of the body better than the weekend

59:27

brain can is called paradoxical can he

59:29

says so? I don't know what it

59:31

means I just loved a stirs me

59:33

A just makes me just more openness

59:36

thinking. About myself and what's possible

59:38

and we're going to learn. But

59:40

those few unicorn examples are in

59:42

the book and at stake and

59:44

I want people to leave way

59:46

with like I learn. I I

59:48

understand dreaming more than before, quite

59:50

a bit more than before as

59:52

impractical take ways. but man, I'm.

59:54

I'm. Actually in I'm a more are

59:57

and more wonder having learned a little

59:59

bit. That the the understanding has

1:00:01

left you with more fascination. Not like oh

1:00:03

yeah, ah I guess we got that figured

1:00:05

out. Quite the opposite. The a dachshund can

1:00:08

he says. But that's what seems really

1:00:10

exciting about what you day is

1:00:12

that you will what the top

1:00:14

of your game globally, yet you

1:00:16

still feel you've got so much

1:00:18

more that you could uncover and

1:00:20

discover about the brain. About the

1:00:22

dreaming brain and just how we

1:00:24

operate that sales Incredible. Like there's

1:00:26

still so much development and say

1:00:28

much prefer to uncover and that's

1:00:30

coming from someone that knows that.

1:00:32

Oh. It's not only is.

1:00:35

He knows not hyperbole or is not

1:00:37

it. you know. I'm nice to any

1:00:39

myself to say that in the expiration

1:00:42

and construction of this book there was

1:00:44

a bit of a intellectual rebirth for

1:00:46

me because what happens when you're fifty

1:00:48

weeknights? Not It is not an age

1:00:50

thing, but. I'm.

1:00:53

In of operate in like. Eight

1:00:56

or different ten hospitals around the world

1:00:58

from Bolivia to Ukraine. Three.

1:01:01

Sons of Join Me Neither the operate

1:01:03

room but in the travels. They're eighteen,

1:01:05

nineteen, twenty two. As I mentioned, I've

1:01:07

been a cancer surgeon for fifteen years,

1:01:09

Neurosurgeon for twenty five. An

1:01:12

intensely live life and legacy is good or

1:01:14

bad and you start to wonder like i

1:01:16

you know that you're starting job. And

1:01:19

you have this wonderful life for hims

1:01:21

immensity. Know what couple of days I'm

1:01:23

a cancer surgeon than I'm here in

1:01:25

London and doing this and you just

1:01:27

think I'm reaching. A rich

1:01:29

maybe the best their life has to offer.

1:01:31

You know you discuss start to get a

1:01:33

point. We're in the construction of this book.

1:01:36

It made me go back and so weights

1:01:38

it would this fresh lens. I can reproach

1:01:40

everything that have already been doing as you

1:01:42

normally like. So what I did like the

1:01:44

other day I went to the National Gallery

1:01:47

and I don't I don't know much about

1:01:49

art and literature. I mean I I read

1:01:51

amenities things but I'm back in in in

1:01:53

them when they're assigned so heads hit foot.

1:01:55

Silex had a glass of champagne. Worked before

1:01:57

the National Gallery of. The restaurants to the. The

1:02:00

the champagne and oysters or whatever and

1:02:02

I just walked around and i just

1:02:04

looked at stuff and i was like

1:02:07

how it might idolize. How

1:02:09

do I look at this divergent Me: How

1:02:11

would these pictures? Stimulate. My

1:02:13

dreaming brain has art stir us. Why

1:02:15

do we feel wonder and awe? Likes

1:02:18

I was just like a kid again

1:02:20

and I just dumb and this was

1:02:22

just a couple of days ago and

1:02:24

dumb. And. That's what this

1:02:26

this book is done as it's excited

1:02:29

me to ah on a new lens

1:02:31

to life with the inclusion of some

1:02:33

other things I learned about the dreaming

1:02:35

brain. When

1:02:37

it's magical and a spin. I

1:02:39

really enjoyed talking seats day. bad

1:02:41

that reading your work and getting

1:02:43

a real glimpse at the world

1:02:45

of the brain and the way

1:02:47

the eve described as if it

1:02:49

was completely digestible. Someone in the

1:02:52

never sides background sites. I have of

1:02:54

us are stories in there were patience

1:02:56

and like is poorly. And it's a

1:02:58

burly and back and I had a

1:03:00

while listening to this guy's often has

1:03:02

some real wow dreams this evening and

1:03:04

then can reflect on them the next

1:03:06

day to this is just infinitely interesting

1:03:08

that psyche say much. For whole it's

1:03:10

been wonderful talking see. Like was. Oh

1:03:13

My. God. Row. I don't even know

1:03:15

where to start. Well and good a

1:03:17

day is.jotting down my dreams every morning,

1:03:20

as soon as I wake up and

1:03:22

then I'm gonna spend a little bit

1:03:24

as time reflecting. I've my morning coffee

1:03:26

thinking about what they mean. The brain

1:03:28

is an incredible saying is I living

1:03:30

on have been enlightened by I'm even

1:03:32

more can see to like Got so

1:03:34

many more questions to ask. Gonna have

1:03:36

to get Rahul back for a part

1:03:38

to for holes but this is why

1:03:40

you dream is out now. Another birch

1:03:42

you absolutely have to read. A

1:03:44

sociopath by Patrick gardening. This is

1:03:46

a happy place. but club pick

1:03:48

the maze. There's gonna be lives

1:03:50

of really cool stuff on the

1:03:52

a happy place but club Instagram.

1:03:54

Accounts across the. Mumps. Ah, this

1:03:57

book is a mesmerizing memoir the

1:03:59

hailing Patrick's battle to create a

1:04:01

place for herself in the world

1:04:04

and a deeper understanding of people

1:04:06

like her sociopath Patrick has battled

1:04:08

with had dark impulses her whole

1:04:11

life into. She eventually began to

1:04:13

wonder if they was a way

1:04:15

to say see a pass to

1:04:18

integrate happily into society And I'm

1:04:20

so excited I cannot tell you

1:04:22

how excited to say that Patrick

1:04:25

or V on this podcast in

1:04:27

just a couple of weeks time.

1:04:30

I am so looking forward to that

1:04:32

sauce or I into next week than

1:04:34

a massive thanks again to Rahul to

1:04:36

the producer and as could say that

1:04:39

Happy Place Studios and see you. For

1:04:41

p Dreaming of Lays. Mom

1:05:10

deserve better than a drugstore card.

1:05:13

This mother's day. Surprise her with

1:05:15

a truly special personalized card for

1:05:17

moon pegged at your favorite photos,

1:05:19

a heartfelt message, and we'll even

1:05:21

military the same day all for

1:05:24

just five dollars. From long to

1:05:26

grandma, we have something to celebrate

1:05:28

every mom and your life. Every

1:05:30

man deserves a move.