0:01

Hello and welcome to Happy Place.

0:03

I'm Fern Cotton and this is

0:05

the show that helps you navigate

0:07

the mayhem of the modern world.

0:09

Today I'm chatting to TJ Power.

0:12

We as humans spend 300,000 years

0:14

evolving out in nature. These chemicals

0:16

during those 300,000 years,

0:18

like every part of us, were evolving and

0:20

trying to help us. Dopamine for example, if

0:22

we were out there hunting and looking for

0:24

food and building shelter, it would reward these

0:27

behaviours and suddenly our dopamine would go up

0:29

because those behaviours were vital to surviving. If

0:31

you then put a hunter gatherer in the

0:33

modern world, like put our ancestors in the

0:35

modern world and suddenly they had sugar and

0:37

phones and sat inside all day and stopped

0:39

sleeping and became disconnected, all these chemicals would

0:41

drop and that really is where we're at as a

0:43

society. All of these chemicals are low for all of us.

0:46

TJ is a neuroscientist and

0:49

the co-founder of Neurofie. He's

0:51

basically the brain behind our brains

0:54

and yes, he's a super clever

0:56

scientist but he's only human too.

0:58

He's struggled with addictive behaviours himself

1:00

so he knows first hand how

1:03

to spot those more unhelpful habits

1:05

from hangovers to endless scrolling on

1:07

our phones but he also now

1:09

knows how to manage them. The

1:13

key is to understand the four

1:15

primary brain chemicals that influence our

1:17

feelings and behaviours. We're

1:19

talking dopamine, oxytocin,

1:22

serotonin and endorphins.

1:25

These are the things he focuses on in

1:27

his book, The Dose Effect, which will come

1:29

out later this year. You've probably

1:31

heard of some, if not all, of

1:34

those chemicals. I definitely have heard a

1:36

lot about dopamine, certainly

1:39

in relation to phones and scrolling

1:41

and these little hits we're trying to

1:43

get all of the time and I guess

1:46

a little bit about oxytocin when I was

1:48

pregnant but I certainly need to learn more

1:50

about it. And I

1:52

know a teeny bit about serotonin because

1:54

I'm pretty sure it relates to sleep

1:56

and that's something that I can become

1:58

a bit obsessed by. So look, I

2:01

am really eager to hear more

2:04

of what TJ has to say. Basically,

2:06

TJ can identify what chemical you're lacking

2:08

based on what you're experiencing and then

2:10

offer a really lovely, simple solution to

2:13

increase it using everyday things that we

2:15

can all do. And I mean that.

2:17

You'll hear in a moment. This stuff

2:19

doesn't have to be difficult. We just

2:21

need to understand how it all works

2:24

in the first place. Give

2:29

me USAA insurance for veterans like James.

2:31

when he found out how much USAA

2:34

was helping members save, He said,

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find right coverage at the right price

2:40

USAA, what you're made Of of, we're

2:42

made for restrictions apply. Alright,

2:47

here it is. This is the show. Hello

3:11

TJ Power. Hello Fat. How

3:14

are you? I'm good, I'm good. Is Power

3:16

your actual surname? It is. I do

3:18

get asked that, but it is. It's a

3:20

really strong surname. Yeah, my parents are giving

3:22

me a shot for those media work. They

3:26

were thinking very, very far ahead. It's

3:29

so good to have you on the podcast.

3:31

I think what you're doing is so interesting.

3:33

And I've been really enjoying following all of

3:35

your social content and breaking down some

3:37

pretty complex situations for us to

3:40

understand in really plainly spoken language,

3:42

which I think is a

3:44

lovely bridge because there's many of us out

3:47

there extremely interested in neuroscience,

3:49

but it can get extremely overwhelming and

3:51

over complicated. So I like that you've

3:53

distilled it for us to really understand

3:56

what we need to know. The

4:00

guy thing when I was studying at university

4:02

I came across all these I did that

4:05

wow that be super useful for society to

4:07

understand but it's all in such language and

4:09

my novel mission is as be nice simplify

4:11

it may take that to both of you

4:13

can actually start taking action. Yeah it's

4:15

great and what I think's really

4:17

empowering. First also understand is when

4:19

we feel we've got poor mental

4:22

health and will old Pete and

4:24

for off with how his menu

4:26

for them off then we will

4:28

assume it sounds a the circumstance

4:30

or something happened in the past

4:32

or maybe it's simply her reddit

4:34

tray of I think we can

4:36

get quite stuck in that. I've

4:38

certainly been there were I've com

4:40

my mental health is poet moment

4:42

because this thing happened here. Where

4:44

is. The. Data that your presenting

4:46

service in your neuroscience wells

4:48

is actually we've got the

4:50

brain chemicals the all really

4:53

actually be things he how

4:55

feeling more our new days

4:57

or energy levels and or

4:59

general baseline mental health service

5:01

you say? we've got more

5:03

agency overall mental health than

5:05

we can't believe. Hundred

5:07

percent I think the brain chemicals

5:10

a riot. The core of our

5:12

human being functions difficulties right? them

5:14

goes we talking about our domain

5:16

been the super famous one oxytocin,

5:18

serotonin and endorphins and very conveniently

5:21

that spouse dose d O se

5:23

which is heaven whoever name of

5:25

chemicals bank. And

5:27

each of these chemicals presents really specific

5:29

symptoms if you're low or high on

5:32

them. And we have so many people

5:34

coming through our training and connecting with

5:36

us that may. Experiencing I really demotivated

5:38

or loving confidence or disconnected or tired

5:40

or anxious And don't on the Santa

5:43

severally that they could be low. It's

5:45

a very specific chemicals the modern world

5:47

is creating a wild that does lead

5:49

to these chemicals being low and refining

5:52

simple action started alleviating people. I this

5:54

open. yet scientists think there's obviously

5:56

no all of us would have been

5:58

free challenging experience isn't it not to

6:00

say that those experiences aren't valid and

6:03

don't contribute to us feeling not great.

6:06

But like you're saying, and I think

6:08

it's so interesting to reiterate that the

6:10

modern world isn't conducive to us having

6:12

balanced levels of these brain chemicals. That

6:17

is a huge thing to realise.

6:19

We're under pressure to create

6:21

some sort of stability with these chemicals

6:23

that isn't a given. Yeah,

6:26

effectively we as

6:28

humans spend 300,000 years evolving

6:30

out in nature. That's like the path we are in. We

6:32

looked in this physical form, this is what they believed, that

6:35

we were in this physical form for 300,000 years. 99.9% of

6:37

that we were

6:40

out there. And very recently we've come

6:42

up with this new way that humans

6:44

live their lives. And these chemicals during

6:46

those 300,000 years, like every part of

6:48

us, were evolving and trying to help

6:50

us. They were trying to help us

6:52

survive, but also thrive as a species.

6:54

And each of them has a specific

6:57

function. Dopamine, for example, if we were

6:59

out there hunting and looking for food and

7:01

building shelter, it would reward these behaviours and

7:03

suddenly our dopamine would go up because those

7:05

behaviours were vital to surviving. Oxytocin, if we

7:07

remained super connected to the tribe, obviously that

7:09

was vital if you were on your own,

7:11

you were screwed out in nature. Serotonin was

7:14

this one that wanted us to take care

7:16

of our bodies with nutrition and sunlight and

7:18

sleep. And then endorphins had this ability to

7:20

de-stress us. And effectively when we were out

7:22

there in the wild, all these chemicals were

7:24

pumping. If you then put a hunter gatherer

7:26

in the modern world, like put our ancestors in the

7:29

modern world, and suddenly they had sugar and

7:31

phones and sat inside all day and stopped

7:33

sleeping and became disconnected, all these chemicals would

7:35

drop. And that really is where we're at

7:37

as a society. All of these chemicals are

7:39

low for all of us. And it's

7:41

a dream for us to discover this, to be honest, as

7:43

people, because there are so many things that can then rebuild

7:45

it and get us feeling good again. Yeah, we

7:47

need to almost reverse a few of the

7:49

terrible habits that we're all in collectively. And

7:51

that's stuff that's totally normalised. It's not like

7:54

I'm talking about criminal activity here. It's just

7:56

like using your phone too much. Let's

7:58

break some of these sounds. Let's look in the comments. your daily dose

8:01

theory here. So let's look at dopamine.

8:03

So dopamine, as you say, is like

8:05

a reward feeling. It's the chemical that

8:08

makes us feel good when there's like

8:10

a reward in place. But of course,

8:12

that reward used to be hunting and

8:14

gathering and food and something that's actually

8:16

going to help to

8:18

nurture our health and our longevity as

8:20

human beings. Now we're getting it off

8:23

phones. That's what we get in the

8:25

dopamine here. Why does it differ? Why

8:28

is that hit of dopamine not

8:30

as productive, say, as something

8:32

that is slightly more rewarding and I guess

8:35

contributing to your actual health? Yeah,

8:38

such a good question. So effectively, what

8:40

you have to imagine is it would have been

8:43

so hard to survive outside. Like if you actually

8:45

imagine it now, we find it hard enough to

8:47

survive in this world. So imagine actually what it

8:49

was like to survive outside. And dopamine was there

8:51

to basically make us enjoy the experience of effort.

8:53

So that all of these things that were really

8:56

hard to do, like find food or find animals

8:58

or whatever it may have been, it made us

9:00

feel good in the pursuit of that goal. So

9:02

we'd want to keep doing it. And the reason

9:04

it varies so much compared to like when we

9:06

go on social media is if you imagine like

9:09

a really simple graph, if you

9:11

were say hunting for an animal, it might

9:13

be two or three hours of your dopamine

9:15

gradually building, you finally successfully get the animal

9:17

and then it comes back down. You've had

9:19

this really slow rise and fall. The

9:22

difficulty happens with when something like you go

9:24

on social media, immediately you experience that huge

9:26

spike of dopamine, you get the reward straight

9:28

away even higher than what we could have

9:30

got from that because these are very carefully

9:32

made ideas. And the brain

9:34

is always good at getting itself back into balance. It just

9:36

wants to be in the middle. And that's the same with

9:38

everything. Your heart rate, everything wants to always be balanced because

9:40

it goes so high. It's then like, wow, I've got

9:42

to get back to the middle. So it crashes really

9:44

low. And that's what creates something

9:47

called low baseline dopamine. And you know

9:49

that feeling where you scroll for ages

9:51

and it is really fun. And then

9:53

you put your phone down and you

9:55

get that deflated feeling like I even

9:57

saw in that little things book you

9:59

compared it. to eating a slice of cake.

10:01

Yeah. And that is so... When you really gobble one

10:03

up and you're like, I can't stop, it's so

10:05

amazing. I'll have a little slipper more. And then

10:08

afterwards you feel crap. 100% and

10:10

cake or social media, the exact same in

10:12

our brain. So is effort the key here?

10:14

Is it, you know, we're getting dopamine hits

10:16

with zero effort. We're like barely, we're moving

10:18

one finger and we're getting the hit that

10:21

would have, as you say, taken two hours

10:23

of exertion and effort before. 100%

10:25

effort is the key. And that can be slightly annoying,

10:28

because obviously we all want everything to be super easy.

10:30

Yeah. But we have to understand like the nature of

10:32

how our brain actually is. And even

10:34

if you take something like needing to tidy your

10:36

home and it's one of those annoying tasks, can't

10:38

really be bothered, gradually start doing it, it's a

10:40

bit annoying, but then you start to gain momentum.

10:43

And that momentum is done for me building in

10:45

your brain. And then afterwards you get this feeling

10:47

of satisfaction and anything that's like discipline, little bit

10:49

of effort, whether it's work based, even if you

10:52

compare something like the feeling you get after reading

10:54

compared to scrolling social media, one of them, your

10:56

brain has to engage a bit of effort. Satisfied

10:58

after one of them, no effort, kind of bit

11:01

disappointed after. One

11:03

of the things that you've been really brilliant talking about

11:05

online, which I think is a subject that gets pushed

11:08

to one side because people either feel

11:10

ashamed talking about it or they find

11:12

it embarrassing to talk about it and

11:14

that's porn, which again, you've got this

11:16

low effort, extremely high hitting dopamine rush

11:18

and then a huge crash afterwards. Can

11:21

you tell me about why you wanted

11:23

to look into the study of that

11:25

and how you've experienced that personally? Yeah,

11:27

porn is fascinating. I think we're

11:29

underestimating it so much as a society because

11:31

it is like an unspoken topic effectively. And

11:34

I think it's an activity that so much

11:36

of our world engages in very regularly. And

11:38

that really isn't a surprise. Like I see

11:40

no judgment in wanting to watch that. Of

11:42

course, it's going to be like a fun

11:45

activity to do. I

11:47

love that you're calling it a fun activity. We

11:50

can describe it however, but I understand why

11:53

society was doing gauges. And

11:55

I did. I got up, young kid. I

11:57

remember Googling something on like a laptop. They

12:00

go that the first i before I didn't

12:02

even real life and then. Again,

12:04

I just joined that psycho. Anything else not

12:06

above me that necessary know would be bad

12:08

for you. And then I was in as

12:10

I've maybe ten years of watching yeah and

12:13

then came study this oath me south and

12:15

thought porn is that She the epitome of

12:17

this concept of. Our brain once effort

12:19

once we reward of hard work some the I'd

12:21

having sex with someone is designed to be F

12:23

E F To meet someone connect with him, eventually

12:26

get intimate with them than have sex in his

12:28

ideas. Gradual Johnny. Porn. Is the opposite

12:30

is like I'm horny Boom straight into and that

12:32

has gone and the crashes huge like I think.

12:35

Lots. Of people can feel that deflated feeling

12:37

within them off to watch me and I

12:39

then saw i came off and i was

12:41

like so shocked at how it affected my

12:43

drive and that's what i mean is here

12:45

for the made you feel driven for your

12:47

life and having drive is so essential to

12:49

kramer life you want my being able to

12:51

pursue your work and help your family and

12:53

whatever it may be so i think have

12:55

of it till my brother my friend as

12:57

i can you to try coming off and

12:59

at all com or that of his late

13:01

then came off a roof he weighs a

13:03

lot Tito's come up with. Some other bullshit.

13:07

I became of in Sunday's there's more drive

13:10

and then I built into those training and

13:12

now it's like one of the most frequent

13:14

messages were getting online and from footage of

13:16

a man by Think Women author was born

13:18

by the my mind age them or frequently

13:20

and the frequency of the things is will

13:22

trade the most damage and they they come

13:25

off it suddenly more driven, feel calmer, more

13:27

focus so. It can have a big be

13:29

a fact. Yeah I mean an an

13:31

instantly noticeable as wow staff and what

13:33

does is terrifying and we would soak

13:35

in a little bit about this before

13:38

we started recording. Today is how quickly

13:40

technologies me they say i take top

13:42

his Instagram on here is meeting even

13:44

quick errand it's all video in his

13:46

next to me too. Much overlay for

13:48

my brain, I know, not. To get stuck

13:51

into that world because it wouldn't it wouldn't

13:53

sad me. Wow and you never got a

13:55

i the introduction of that coming into play

13:57

and I'm sure the poor landscapes changing or

13:59

line of thing. Becoming a, you

14:01

know, more. my fourth, a massive

14:03

and. Dot is terrifying to

14:05

me as a parent, certainly. But also

14:07

just as part of the human race,

14:10

this we've got even more challenges ahead

14:12

in terms of being disciplined enough to

14:14

not just fall into the trap that

14:16

I just set up for us constantly.

14:18

How do you feel about that? You

14:20

feel hopeful that we can push against

14:22

these trends that are everywhere. They're just

14:24

so ingrained in our coach or Gc,

14:26

we can push against them to save

14:29

almonds. Wow. By size a good thing

14:31

to ponder. I really box society to

14:33

solve problems. I famous human species unbelievable

14:35

and the fact that we have survived

14:37

half ounces of thousands of years means

14:39

we're very good overcoming difficulty and he

14:41

me to go back of your hundred

14:43

years maybe like disease and aid and

14:45

the the that massive problems in society

14:47

eventual a problem is big enough enough

14:49

attention has garnered and and that humans

14:51

are very good at solving and so

14:53

I think we're seeing that chef world

14:55

with thing that you make you massive

14:57

focus on this and progressive more more

14:59

people. Put in our attention towards

15:01

a problem that needs solving and

15:04

I was a back The human

15:06

instinct and. Oh. This humans

15:08

he wants to do with stay alive like

15:10

that all at once is just realize that

15:12

the core of why we're here effectively and

15:15

the reason to me for example rewards posted

15:17

babies like hunting about and shelters because the

15:19

things increase your like had a survival. The

15:21

reason something like porn gives you the opposite

15:23

feeling is because the brain is so clever

15:25

and knowing that isn't the way humans will

15:28

prosper in knows if all humans thought working

15:30

full time and eventually at some point we're

15:32

not having sex. Know having kids that will

15:34

lead us down a challenging part. The same

15:36

with if we spend. More time on as

15:38

the watching take dog will lead us out

15:40

about path blocker productivity and oppression itself. I

15:42

that so I back the feeling to become

15:44

so strong with in humans they'll wake up

15:46

enough of an energy to solve the from

15:48

my. Lovely wife thinking about it's really nice

15:51

and it yeah you're right you can. I

15:53

think it's awareness paces know if he can

15:55

step. awesome guy I really thought I say

15:57

after watching porn every day for a mom.

16:00

I really like. Shape being on take talk

16:02

for an hour that you can

16:04

step back and and make changes

16:06

or think the awareness is really

16:08

key that I'm if you're just

16:10

feeling loving dope the main and

16:12

maybe. You. Tried making since week. Say

16:14

your own, you find a little bit less

16:16

you're not watching porn or whatever else that

16:19

high is that you're guessing could be drugs

16:21

you talk about trojan of as well. I'm

16:23

how can we all see starts? I mean

16:25

in for a natural ways. Yeah the

16:27

most important thing is how your day begins

16:29

because effectively throughout your sleep powder authority process

16:31

is your brain is building a load of

16:33

domain so that human wakes up in a

16:36

few driven a motivated to pursue I've been

16:38

a today and you'd imagine for ancestors by

16:40

the had to wake up and get to

16:42

was fine food and keep up on alive

16:44

and if a T V if you imagine

16:46

as little like dope mean bubbles in our

16:49

brain echoed vatican with may literally like a

16:51

restoring in our brain overnight when our brain

16:53

wakes up a then praised I mean really

16:55

bad league. That wants you to go do

16:57

something rewarding It wants you to find food

16:59

or whatever may be all these bubbles a

17:01

thing in your brain if in that moment

17:03

of waiting you go straight into the phone

17:05

immediately effectively those but within your brain stop

17:07

birthday and suddenly the quantity is reducing is

17:10

really satisfy the i so nice guy and

17:12

my phone when I wake up but then

17:14

you're setting yourself up on low dose me

17:16

levels and when you're on logo for main

17:18

your then in this kind of slightly the

17:20

thought demotivated feeling and the only way out

17:22

of it is all the quick stuff to

17:24

then you want the sugary bright for. Them

17:26

when every maybe the maple whatever you could

17:28

a seat for in some that quick die

17:30

for me. If the day be gained by

17:32

by you wake up and you got this

17:34

abundance of don't mean in your brain and

17:36

suddenly you just go the bathroom and splash

17:38

cold water on your face your then using

17:40

some is that with my building more or

17:42

if you just made your bed anything that's

17:44

engaging effort. If you could step outside like

17:46

a few minutes even if it was like

17:48

not very long that first five ten minute

17:50

window then sets you on a completely different

17:52

trajectory. So I know it's so odd. like

17:54

I went on my phone waking. up every

17:56

day for like my whole life that

17:58

one shifted so Phenomenal and it's

18:01

just like gradually integrating into it.

18:03

I think it's really important like you just said

18:06

none of us want to do the right thing Like

18:08

we would all love to wake up eat

18:10

a load of shit go straight You

18:13

know, we'd all like to do that I I know

18:15

because I've got the propensity to not feel great or

18:17

I can look at back at my history and think

18:19

oh There've been times where I felt so awful. I

18:23

Feel like I've got no choice sometimes But

18:25

to be disciplined so I'm very

18:27

like that in the morning that I won't let

18:29

myself go on my phone for at least half

18:32

An hour because I know I'll just I won't

18:34

get off it and I think it's really important

18:36

to say that there's not some some of us

18:38

Aren't just naturally Discipline to go. Yes, I'm holier

18:40

than now and I won't my phone when I

18:42

get up It's horrible for all of us,

18:44

but you notice the difference that you

18:46

do feel your baseline of dopamine is

18:49

slightly higher That's the incentive

18:51

isn't it that you just keep on on a good

18:53

route This is one of the most important

18:56

things is that if you want

18:58

to feel happier in our modern world You

19:00

really need to get super in tune with

19:02

how these behaviors are actually affecting it your

19:04

feelings in your body because a

19:07

lot of the time like you're in the pleasure of scrolling

19:09

the phone but if Afterwards you come off phone and you

19:11

really tune in to how your body feels you'll notice like

19:13

a really deflated feeling and on the Other side like when

19:15

you have really positive behaviors You need to really tune into

19:17

how good they're making you feel like if you do Go

19:20

for a walk out in the sunlight in the morning You have

19:22

to directly compare these things because the more in

19:24

tune you get to how it actually makes you

19:26

feel the smarter your decisions become I wake up

19:28

every day craving my phone I love going on

19:31

Instagram and checking Engagement sort of stuff can get

19:33

super addictive and then seeing what my friends have

19:35

said and TMs or whatever it may be and

19:38

I have to fight it like every single day. I've

19:40

been doing this for like three years It's not a

19:42

single day where I don't wake up craving it But

19:44

I just like force that I have my phone charging

19:46

like outside my room Buying an alarm clock

19:48

I think is one of the most essential things in the

19:50

world because if it is right by your bed You're never

19:52

gonna be able to resist it and then like I have

19:54

the urge to go towards I can even feel myself Wanting

19:56

to go towards it now and I'll

19:58

just like force myself outside I brush

20:00

my teeth, whatever it may be. And the

20:02

difference is phenomenal. Like it's not

20:04

something I think is negotiable. Like you're asking like, how can

20:06

we solve this problem in our world? These sort of actions,

20:09

they just like, they have to get into our life. We

20:11

have to find a way to build them. Yeah,

20:13

and they are really simple. You know, obviously there's

20:15

nuance to the conversation because if you've got a

20:17

clinical depression, whatever, there's going to be, you know,

20:19

different infrastructures needed to ensure that you feel all

20:22

right. But for many people out there who just

20:24

want to feel a bit better, these really simple

20:26

things matter. And we think, oh, how can that

20:28

be a thing? How can not going on your

20:30

phone make me feel any better? But it's these

20:33

tiny, tiny tweaks. Welcome

20:37

to your daily affirmations. Repeat

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20:44

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20:49

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a month to start or tap the

21:02

banner to go to monday.com. Let's

21:10

talk about the next one on the list,

21:12

which is oxytocin. So tell us about oxytocin.

21:14

What is it? What does it do? So

21:16

completely here on earth to help connect us

21:18

as a species, that's why we have it.

21:20

And it's released most prominently when a mum

21:22

gives birth, as you will have experienced. In

21:24

that moment of birth, the mum and the

21:26

baby experiences a huge surge of oxytocin, and

21:28

it provides that initial pair bond. And

21:31

then as you go through life and you

21:33

have physical touch and love and breastfeeding in

21:35

those early months, oxytocin begins to build and

21:37

build. And then as you begin to grow

21:39

as a human and you start to give

21:41

love to others and contribute and receive love,

21:43

oxytocin, bigger and bigger. And this

21:46

connection-based chemical, again, like in a world where

21:48

we're so stuck behind our phones, it is

21:50

beginning to drop. And again, actions we can

21:52

go through that can get this one up.

21:54

Yeah, in a similar way to looking

21:56

at dopamine, the screens that we're obsessed

21:59

with are, again... really impacting this one

22:01

on a big level. And we

22:03

often, you know, I'm so guilty of this

22:05

one. I think, oh, I'll just text that

22:07

person and we'll just have a voicenote chat.

22:09

But actually, if I took the time to

22:12

go, let's go for a cup of tea,

22:14

sit face to face, make eye contact, probably,

22:16

you know, just have a laugh or go

22:18

deep and talk about big things. You feel

22:20

so boosted after. And I'm, you know, it's

22:22

no secret. I really struggle to get out

22:24

the house sometimes to go and see people.

22:27

I can be, you know, really drawn to just

22:29

staying at home because it feels comfy and safe

22:31

and easier. But I can see, especially

22:33

in the wintertime, it can be detrimental when you've got

22:35

to look at your own comfort

22:38

zone that you're willing to step out of to

22:40

go and, you know, there's a lot of people out

22:42

there who've been listening to this that feel deeply lonely.

22:44

We know that loneliness is one of the biggest problems.

22:47

I don't know if we still do, but we had a lonely

22:49

minister in government at one point. And

22:52

I think that might have even been

22:54

before the pandemic, but people are really

22:56

suffering with this one. And again, would

22:58

you say we've got a bit more

23:00

agency over how much we're connecting and

23:02

how deeply we're connecting than we think?

23:05

Definitely. And I do think it's important to

23:07

understand like we all have our own social

23:09

desires. Like it's not that you suddenly have

23:11

to like put yourself in really like extroverted

23:13

situations if that's not your vibe. Like if

23:15

you want to just like meet someone one-on-one,

23:17

that's great. And that'll provide you all the

23:19

oxytocin you need. The other thing is

23:22

if you do want to stay at home, which is also fair,

23:24

like it's amazing that we have these nice comfortable homes to be

23:26

in. The interesting thing in

23:28

the research is also showing that when we text

23:30

one another, we get absolutely no oxytocin releasing our

23:32

brains at all. And then immediately when someone calls

23:35

someone, they hear someone's voice, they do get an

23:37

oxytocin release. So it does show that it is

23:39

very important. Like if you're going to be at

23:41

home to connect more via things like FaceTime. And

23:43

the research behind that all comes from the fact

23:46

when you're really, really young and you hear the

23:48

sound of your mum or dad's voice, it immediately

23:50

releases oxytocin and calms you because you know you

23:52

have safety and the next your primary caregiver is

23:55

there. So the sound of voices began to like,

23:57

come on, let's build this connection-based chemical. So

24:00

much of us now are getting our connection through

24:02

our phones. Even if you

24:04

think about something like dating apps, and I think dating

24:06

and relationships is a big topic in our world,

24:09

I think it's something that so many people are

24:11

struggling with. If you look at

24:13

dating apps, the entire connection is based on words

24:15

and texting initially before you get towards FaceTime or

24:17

meeting each other. And that itself doesn't release the

24:19

chemical that's going to make you build any kind

24:21

of bond with the person. So it's like we

24:23

are, we're just like malfunctioning a bit as we

24:25

step into this tech world. And the more we

24:27

can understand the importance of these things, the better.

24:30

Yeah, that's a big one, isn't it? Because I,

24:32

you know, I haven't been on the dating scene

24:34

for some time. I do think

24:36

God, how, how would that, how would I feel

24:38

about that? And how would I cope with that?

24:40

Because it is now probably the number one way

24:43

that people meet their partners, loads of

24:45

my friends and marriage people they've met on

24:47

dating apps or dating people. And it's a beautiful thing,

24:50

but it is, it's a totally different experience

24:52

to I met my husband very pissed

24:54

in a club in Ibiza. That's pretty cool, though.

24:57

That's probably the way to do it. There was a

24:59

hell of a lot of oxytocin. I love a chemical.

25:03

Many chemicals, all legal

25:05

brain chemicals. Let's

25:07

talk about serotonin. This one interests me

25:09

hugely because there's also relation to

25:11

sleep. So tell us about

25:14

serotonin. So serotonin is fascinating.

25:16

Effectively, this one evolved to make

25:18

us take care of our body. And this is

25:20

where things get super interesting because we've coined this

25:23

term mental health as a society, which really makes

25:25

it sound like something in the top of our

25:27

head, effectively, that mental word. And

25:29

this effectively is the most mental healthy

25:31

chemical. And 95% of it is

25:33

being made in our body. Wow. Very

25:36

different to the other ones. And your

25:38

brain has and body have a very

25:40

sophisticated mechanism called the vagus nerve is

25:42

this nerve that connect them together. Effectively,

25:44

your vagus nerve is constantly reading the

25:46

state of your body, your heart, your gut

25:48

system, everything, and then giving feedback to your

25:50

brain about how that is. And the more

25:52

you take care of your body, the better

25:54

fed it is, the more slept, the more

25:56

sunlight, the more well rested, the more serotonin

25:58

is created, the better. you then feel in your

26:00

mind. It's a very good point to make because

26:02

often I think you know we do have these conversations

26:05

about mental health and we are pictured this sort of

26:07

floating head and the body just gets totally forgotten about

26:09

but hello it's all connected and it's all an

26:12

interconnected system that has to have some sort

26:14

of level of equilibrium to feel okay all

26:16

around and we really forget about that. This

26:18

is an interesting chemical to talk about. Yeah.

26:21

If you like I often do find it

26:23

very difficult to sleep I mean

26:25

it's kind of chicken and egg thing what do you

26:27

start with are you trying to solve the problem of

26:29

boosting serotonin or are you making sure you're getting better

26:31

sleep so you're producing more serotonin how does

26:33

it work? It really is chicken and

26:36

egg because when you're sleeping you are building

26:38

serotonin so the serotonin activity but in order

26:40

to go to sleep you need the release

26:42

of that melatonin chemical which is the chemical

26:44

that releases in the evening in the sunset

26:47

to help put us to sleep and

26:49

serotonin is what creates melatonin so you basically want

26:51

to build as much serotonin as you can in

26:53

the day that will then create melatonin and melatonin

26:55

will put you to sleep and then when you're

26:58

sleeping you'll build more so it becomes like a

27:00

nice cycle and there

27:02

are definitely actions we can take I'd almost start

27:04

at the beginning of your day and then go

27:06

from there. One of the greatest predictors of sleep

27:09

is how quickly we see sunlight first thing

27:11

in the morning it is absolutely essential because

27:13

we have this circadian rhythm which is like

27:15

our body clock and that obviously did once

27:18

live outside all the time so it was

27:20

just like completely adapted to sunroads we woke

27:22

up sunset we went to sleep like three

27:24

hours after that and the quicker

27:26

we see sunlight in the morning the faster our

27:28

circadian rhythm will start so it will kick off

27:30

and our energy will go super high super quickly

27:32

but then the faster it will fall at

27:35

the end of the day so you'll fall

27:37

asleep faster and fall asleep deeper quicker effectively.

27:39

The sunlight first thing is absolutely essential. Would

27:41

you say sunlight outside is there a difference

27:43

between looking out the window and being in the you

27:45

know in the street? Yeah annoyingly windows

27:48

just like the fact you wouldn't burn through

27:50

a window like if it was sunny like

27:52

because it'll block the UV it's also blocking

27:54

that capacity for the serotonin to release in

27:56

the morning it also then interconnects with cortisol

27:59

that stress hormone. hormone, but in like a healthy

28:01

way, you actually want a bit of cortisol first thing

28:03

in the morning to get the system started. And

28:06

especially in months like this, like when I woke up this

28:08

morning, I wanted to feel good

28:11

today, like this is a cool thing to be

28:13

doing. And immediately that's okay. So I definitely need

28:15

sunlight and not social media. And I try and

28:17

have this rule of sunlight before social media is

28:19

like a base idea of if I've seen sunlight,

28:22

then I've like earned my allowance of going on

28:24

social media. And whilst the sun

28:26

in the winter is a bit like weaker,

28:28

effectively, you can actually look towards it and

28:30

obviously have to be super careful, you never

28:32

want to hurt your eyes. But you want

28:34

to effectively imagine that the sun is like

28:36

a wireless charger and you're like an iPhone

28:38

and it literally has the capacity to charge

28:40

your serotonin up. And if you can, like have

28:42

a few minutes where you look towards the sun,

28:45

that sort of thing is ridiculously good building this

28:47

chemical and then optimizing your sleep as well later

28:49

on. Brilliant. One of my really good

28:51

mates, JJ, she was feeling just a bit flat,

28:53

probably the end of last year and a friend

28:56

said to do this to go. She luckily lives

28:58

near in London, a part of London where you

29:00

can sort of get into a bit greenery and

29:02

see the sunrise. So every morning

29:04

she was getting up and watching the sunrise,

29:06

which is obviously again a bit easier to

29:08

do in the winter because it's not four

29:10

in the morning. It's been like seven past

29:12

seven. But she said the difference was noticeable

29:14

in how she felt in a week, not

29:16

even looking at sleep. She just felt better

29:19

in herself. And again, it's stuff that we could

29:21

easily poo poo and say, what's that going to

29:24

do? Looking going out and looking at the sunrise.

29:26

But it's all of this stuff that is, you

29:28

know, stripping back the layers and looking back to

29:30

what our ancestors did. Yeah. That works.

29:32

And that's that's the key to it.

29:35

It is. We have like we just

29:37

spent so much time out there and our brain

29:40

and body is just craving these things so badly.

29:42

And the big thing to understand

29:44

is it's not like immediately going to solve

29:47

the problem. If you're in like a depressed,

29:49

anxious headspace, not one sunlight walk is going

29:51

to solve the problem suddenly you feel amazing.

29:53

But it's like the consistency of doing it

29:55

gradually begins to rebuild these chemicals and get

29:57

things going again. And someone

29:59

like Andrew Sch Huberman, one of the most

30:01

phenomenal neuroscientists in our world, believes that our

30:03

lack of sunlight is the greatest predictor of

30:05

our poor mental health. That one thing and

30:07

you think sunlight, what the hell is that

30:09

going to do? But we really need it.

30:12

It's just we spend so much time like

30:14

we used to have 12 hours a day

30:16

outside now we might have five minutes and

30:18

that's a radical different for our brain, for

30:20

our body and if it can just gradually

30:22

start increasing. And Apple for example are now

30:24

beginning to track how much sunlight you're getting

30:26

a day so they're beginning to take prioritization

30:28

of realizing you need a certain amount a day.

30:31

And again, looping back to that conversation of how we're

30:33

going to solve this problem, it is beginning to just

30:35

figure out all these unique things we need gradually boosting

30:37

them up. Yeah and they're really, really basic

30:39

things. I think that's such a good one, the

30:41

change that most of us should

30:44

be able to make that we can prioritize getting

30:46

outside a little bit more and

30:48

maybe moving to Spain one day because

30:50

it's pretty great here. I mean that's also an

30:52

action. And that is something to also understand when it

30:54

is great so I know it's like amazing when it's

30:56

sunny and you look at the sunrise but you kind

30:58

of want to imagine it that if it's sunny

31:01

outside you'd need about five to ten minutes in

31:03

your morning like before 12 to get a

31:05

decent rise in this chemical. If it

31:07

is cloudy you're looking at more like 15 to 20

31:10

minutes. Right you're still getting it. If it's a cloudy day

31:12

you're still going to get it. Arguably it's even more important

31:14

on those days to make sure you get it because the

31:16

days where we get no time outside are the ones that

31:18

really screw us up. So you want to imagine it five

31:20

to ten then 15 to 20. I love

31:22

that. Right let's talk about endorphins because again

31:24

we hear about them in the context of

31:27

exercise usually but I know that that's not

31:29

the full picture so just still it for us. Tell

31:31

us what we need to know. Yeah so it's

31:33

correct that exercise releases endorphins. Endorphins basically

31:35

evolved in our brain to help us

31:37

cope with physical and mental stress. To

31:40

help it you're obviously super interested in

31:42

and the whole function of them

31:44

was we used to cope with ridiculous physical stress

31:46

of having to like fight an animal or run

31:48

away from a person or whatever it may be

31:50

and we needed a mechanism that could effectively in

31:52

those really high pressure moments immediately take all this

31:54

stress out our brain so we weren't like oh

31:56

my god I'm gonna die I'm gonna die so

31:58

you just like got so. And

32:00

then also if you were physically in pain, it

32:03

would take that pain away. Like for example, right

32:05

now, if I told you to run as fast

32:07

as you can to Richmond tube station, you'd probably

32:09

get like a stitch and be like, this is

32:12

quite nice. If a bear was chasing you, you'd

32:14

probably just get there. You just keep running because

32:16

you'd have this huge endorphin release to de-stress you

32:18

because you'd be like, I have to try and

32:21

survive this situation. And this chemical is magic because

32:23

any time in which we're feeling stressed out or

32:25

the other side of low endorphins could we feel

32:27

kind of frustrated and pissed off and angry. If

32:30

anytime that emotion is arising, endorphin

32:32

scientifically will de-stress the brain. So

32:34

getting them released is key. Yeah,

32:36

absolutely. And getting that, I think this has been

32:38

a big one for me, like trying to look

32:40

at stress and understand it in my own life

32:43

and go, because I know sometimes I don't cope

32:45

very well with it and I can get extreme like

32:47

physical tension and that can manifest into a

32:49

big sty over Christmas because I wasn't looking

32:51

at that enough. And

32:54

it came out in my eye, which is like,

32:56

I think all kind of emblematic

32:58

of like things I wasn't dealing with

33:00

in my life. But if I can

33:02

physically get the stress out, whether it's

33:04

exercise or I really love the last

33:07

probably 12 months, I've been doing

33:09

a lot of shaking. Nice. So

33:11

just shaking my whole body. I

33:13

look like an absolute crazy person,

33:15

but it feels so amazing. And

33:17

the sort of release you get from

33:19

that, you can feel the stress literally coming

33:21

off of your body. It's so important. And

33:23

something that's really interesting when you were talking

33:26

about that there, that sprung to mind is

33:28

I think we collectively assume that a

33:30

good life is a really comfortable, easy

33:32

life. But actually all of this points

33:34

to the absolute opposite that for us

33:36

to feel good, there needs to be

33:38

effort, exertion of some kind and that

33:40

sort of element of challenge and struggle

33:42

on a physical level, but a mental

33:44

level. So we've probably, we're maybe aiming

33:46

for the wrong things in terms of

33:48

looking for this ultimate,

33:51

relentless comfort. Yeah,

33:54

we, the pursuit of comfort is

33:56

only going to be like a world that does create like

33:58

a lot of depression in our mind. mind, unfortunately,

34:00

just because if we'd

34:02

been in this modern tech world for hundreds

34:04

of thousands of years, maybe the brain will

34:06

have evolved into a whole new mechanism that

34:08

can enjoy this experience. But it's just like

34:10

we are literally the first humans to ever

34:13

experience this and the brain is just like,

34:15

what is going on? This isn't what I

34:17

lived in. This is the opposite. I was

34:19

never comfy. I was hardworking every day, constantly

34:21

trying to contribute to my family, keep them

34:23

alive, constantly having to sleep loads to recharge

34:25

in order to get there, eating the unprocessed

34:27

foods because there was none of these things.

34:29

Our brain really desires

34:31

effort. That's why

34:33

when people go down the path

34:35

of some kind of new routine and they're like,

34:37

oh, I'm waking up earlier, I'm eating a bit

34:39

healthier, I'm exercising more, I'm focusing better, obviously,

34:42

a lot of the benefit comes from the behaviors themselves

34:44

making you feel good. But a huge

34:47

proportion of it is simply the fact your brain

34:49

is suddenly in more of a pursuit of a

34:51

goal and it just wants that. It wants such

34:53

a clear goal that it's constantly chasing for and

34:55

in this step, accomplishing that goal is when you're

34:57

going to feel your best. Yeah, I

34:59

mean, I'm addicted to that feeling, if

35:02

anything. I find it difficult to do the

35:04

opposite and just be a human. Yeah, me doing

35:06

it to be. I find it really hard. I get so

35:08

caught up in that feeling. And of course, I

35:11

have had periods of my life where I haven't

35:13

felt like that. And of course, all of that

35:15

forward moving action requires motivation. If

35:17

you're not motivated, you are not going to

35:19

do anything. And I've definitely had, there was

35:21

a period of my mental health where I

35:24

felt so unmotivated in most areas. And that's

35:26

a very tricky place to be when

35:29

you realize that motivation is probably going

35:31

to get you out of maybe not

35:33

fully, but certainly elevate you maybe

35:35

one or two levels up from the absolute

35:37

shit show that you feel your life is at that

35:39

point. If you are feeling super

35:41

bleak and there might be people listening to

35:44

this now that really aren't feeling very good

35:46

and they have zero motivation, but listening to

35:48

you speaking and understanding that it might require

35:50

a change of habit, maybe

35:53

some motivation to get outside in

35:55

the morning to not look at your phone, et

35:57

cetera. Where do you start? that

36:00

motivation to make change? Yeah,

36:03

this is a really good

36:05

thing to ponder. And this is

36:07

where I've been. Like, I now talk at

36:09

it from a place of like, I am

36:11

doing lots of these things. So I am

36:13

in a more motivated headspace. But I was

36:15

wanting so far from this. I grew

36:18

up and had like a really challenging experience between

36:20

like 16 and 21. I

36:22

lost five people in five years. And

36:25

by 21, I'd like carried four coffins on my shoulder. And

36:27

during that time, got really into

36:29

the world of addiction. And I got

36:32

to the end of that about 22 years

36:34

old. And I was so fucks, to be

36:36

honest. I was like depressed, anxious. I'd been

36:39

having way too much of that dopamine stuff.

36:41

And at that point, I was like, how the

36:43

hell do I solve this? Like I was coming out of uni. I'd

36:45

managed to keep uni going and do all my degree and

36:47

all that sort of stuff. But like, personally, my brain was

36:50

just fried. And at that

36:52

point, I was like, I need to create

36:54

some kind of big desire in my life

36:56

to want to get healthy. And

36:59

I knew the phone was the greatest problem to

37:01

solve, the addiction of the phone. Because although all

37:03

the other things like I was having is

37:05

the frequency of the phone that was really

37:07

screwing me up. And I hated the idea

37:10

of coming away from my phone. And

37:12

I was like, I'm going to see if I

37:14

can go for a walk each day for an

37:16

hour without it. And that was literally the worst

37:18

idea possible. I'd walk out there, hit so much

37:20

anxiety in my mind, all my depressive thoughts. I

37:22

would like really criticise myself, be

37:24

super tough for myself. But I just had this commitment.

37:26

I was like, I'm going to do this every day

37:29

until I find a way out of this challenge I'm

37:31

in. Because I'd learned so much about the human instinct.

37:33

And I thought if I give it enough time to

37:35

be heard, eventually it's going to give me the answer.

37:38

And interestingly, in the

37:40

silence is when I actually found all this doe stuff, basically,

37:42

all these actions. But I

37:44

found that if you go for a walk every

37:46

day without your phone, and on that walk simply

37:48

ponder what you want from your life. And it's

37:50

like whether you're wanting deeper connection in your relationships,

37:52

you want to have a healthier lifestyle, you want

37:54

to pursue something in your work. If you give

37:56

your brain enough time to think, it's actually so

37:58

important. talented at finding the answer. I just think

38:01

so much the time we're never giving it the

38:03

space to find it because it's just like, oh

38:05

yeah, I really want that thing, but now I'm

38:07

just going to screw on my phone. And you

38:09

can't see distracting. And I really believe that is

38:11

step one, a headphone free walk on a consistent

38:13

basis in a natural environment where you ponder what

38:15

you're seeking for. And I think that's step one

38:17

in the catalyst of everything else. But interesting that

38:19

for you personally, the initiation into that was

38:22

really challenging. It's not like on day one,

38:24

you were like, I feel fucking great. I've

38:26

not got my phone. I'm pondering all these

38:28

life ideas. You're going to have to push

38:30

through a bit of a breakthrough moment of

38:32

feeling very uncomfortable. And I

38:35

think like any change of habit, there's discomfort,

38:37

but that doesn't mean it's wrong. A

38:40

hundred percent. And if I

38:42

can't explain how tough it was like I, as I said

38:45

before, the human instinct is very good at guiding

38:47

us towards positive behaviors and away from unhealthy behaviors.

38:49

And I was engaging so hard in everything unhealthy

38:51

you can basically do as a person. So then

38:53

when I was out there, I heard this really

38:55

critical voice in my head and

38:57

it's always just kind of

38:59

ignore that voice and just ignore it, ignore it,

39:01

keep engaging with the behaviors because they temporarily make

39:03

me feel good. But if you're out there for

39:05

long enough, you have to let that voice be

39:07

heard. And eventually when I started hearing it, I

39:09

started thinking, OK, I'll listen, I'll listen. I was

39:11

coming out there more often, more into silence. And

39:14

then I started to kind of go down another

39:16

track of rather than constantly criticizing myself when I

39:18

was out there, I started to think maybe I

39:20

could celebrate some progress when I was out there

39:22

instead of constantly being so tough. So I began

39:25

like this little moment, there's a specific bench, I'd

39:27

sit down and I still do this to this

39:29

day. Like I find my mentors just like a constant

39:31

job of like working on it and building on it.

39:33

And I would sit down, I just asked stuff like, where

39:36

have I achieved something? And it might be like I managed

39:38

one day or I didn't go on my phone for five

39:40

minutes. And that was like a huge, huge step or one

39:42

day where I didn't eat crappy food or drunk less alcohol,

39:44

whatever it may be at the time. And gradually as I

39:47

started reinforcing the positive behavior, rather than

39:49

the constant critique of the negative behavior, which I

39:51

think was actually reinforcing the negative, I started to

39:53

reinforce the positive and it began this like gradual

39:55

domino effect. And then I started thinking, wow, this

39:57

feels good, this feels good. And then you go on to this

39:59

new part. The thing is, everyone,

40:02

everyone, even the people we look at and

40:05

think, oh my God, they are nailing life.

40:07

They're so perfect. Everybody

40:09

has got that horrible critique in our

40:11

heads, every single one of us. And

40:13

I think we look at everyone else

40:15

and just go, they've not got that.

40:17

They're just floating through the world

40:19

and it's all going brilliantly. But we've all got

40:21

that horrible voice. And I find that really empowering

40:23

that we can actually connect on that and go,

40:26

what is your, well, Julia Samuels,

40:28

who we had on a Happy Place

40:30

YouTube episode called the Shitty Committee. It's

40:32

so good. It's

40:35

such a great phrase, but we've all got

40:37

it. And I think that for me

40:39

is so empowering because I can go down and

40:41

write Rabbit Hole with that one and I can really

40:43

listen to that voice way too much. And I can

40:45

just look around me and assume that none

40:47

of my friends are experiencing that. None of my

40:49

peers at work are experiencing that. Everyone's

40:52

really confident with what they've set out to do. But

40:55

even before I start doing a podcast like

40:57

this, I've got probably half and half,

40:59

like one bit excited, looking forward to it.

41:01

The other half of my brain going, well,

41:03

don't fuck this up. Or well, maybe it

41:05

won't go brilliantly and it will be the rest of

41:07

the days are right off. And it's

41:09

really, it's a tricky one to manage

41:11

that. But you're saying if you focus

41:14

more on the good things that you're actually the actions

41:17

in your life, that helps support the

41:19

more positive voice that you're hearing in your head. Yeah,

41:22

this is so crucial. So I think this

41:24

is at the core of every

41:27

bit of change you can possibly make. If I

41:29

give you a scenario, if you had two people

41:31

that were wanting to eat healthier, it's very simple

41:33

example. I'm sure lots of us want that. And

41:35

Monday to Friday, they both ate great. They suddenly

41:37

ate really good. Like eight percent of their food

41:39

was really nutritious. And then on Saturday, they both

41:41

ate like crap. They both had a Domino's and

41:43

like a big tub of Ben and Jerry's. If

41:46

one of them was like, oh, this is so annoying.

41:48

I always do this. I'm fat. I'm

41:50

so bad at dieting and just went down that narrative in

41:53

their head. It's really done like that could be massive critique.

41:55

And then the other one was like, this is really annoying.

41:57

I've eaten the Domino's and Ben and Jerry's.

42:00

But I just did five days of eating really,

42:02

really healthy and that's massive progress. One

42:04

of them reinforces the negative behavior and it

42:06

will just continue to happen. Whereas the other

42:08

one reinforces the more positive behavior. Like

42:11

I've had this, even as I've like stepped into higher

42:13

pressure moments with speaking or coming on things like this,

42:15

it's so easy to come off it and think, oh,

42:17

that's a little bit I got wrong. That's a little

42:20

bit I got wrong. Whatever it may be. Yeah, I

42:22

do it every time. And it's so annoying because you're

42:24

then just building the floor inside you. Whereas

42:26

if you come off and you think, wow, there were some

42:28

good things that went right. That's how you build proper

42:30

self belief and confidence. And this is

42:33

actually something we go into with the

42:35

oxytocin is how do you do that

42:37

yourself? We have this achievement space card where you learn

42:39

to just celebrate simple, small achievement each day. But

42:42

then also how can you do this with other people?

42:44

And we're living in a world where

42:46

self belief is falling so fast because we're mass

42:48

comparison and everyone has more than us and all

42:50

that kind of stuff. And if around the dinner

42:52

table, for example, you like as parents and with

42:54

their kids, you can have a simple conversation of

42:57

one thing you achieved that day. It then helps

42:59

like a kid or a parent like begin to

43:01

believe they actually can make progress in their life.

43:03

And it is vital. Again, it's like one of

43:05

these core things the human brain needs in a

43:07

world of tech. Like you say, it's got

43:10

to be it's got

43:12

to be independent because we are so

43:14

now obsessed with outside validation. Yeah. In

43:17

terms of, again, how we're using phones and

43:19

how we're communicating with each other and how

43:21

we're imbibing information from social media that we

43:23

think things that are heavily

43:26

liked or talked about a lot

43:28

are more important or are okay. And

43:30

we've actually got to find that

43:33

feeling that we're doing all right without

43:36

any exterior anything. And

43:38

that's, that's another discipline that we're not looking

43:41

at that's potentially getting worse because of social

43:43

media. Yeah. And this is where

43:45

getting in tune with how you're feeling is so

43:47

important. Like I said that at the start, you

43:49

got to tune into what's what these behaviors are

43:51

actually making you feel with the phone and booze

43:53

or whatever it may be or positive behaviors. And

43:56

this again is why I continue to come back

43:58

to this idea of a quiet walk in nature.

44:00

because it gets boring, our nature, if you're walking,

44:02

and boring is okay, like to be in that

44:04

state, even though we fear it now, and we

44:06

hear all these voices. But when you're out there,

44:08

it's hard to like, understand this as a human,

44:10

because we have it all in our brain, but

44:12

our body can talk to us, like we can

44:14

literally hear these feelings within us. And if it's

44:16

something like that, where it's like, I'm seeking for

44:18

validation, because maybe that person thinks that thing is

44:21

cool, I don't actually give a shit about that

44:23

thing. The more time you spend in the quiet

44:25

building a relationship with yourself, the stronger all these

44:27

connections become. And then you start thinking, what do

44:29

I actually enjoy? What is making me feel really

44:31

good? You celebrate the achievement of doing these

44:33

behaviors more often, and you yourself go on

44:35

to a better path rather than trying to

44:37

be on everyone else's. Yeah, I saw

44:39

that on Instagram, you'd put get

44:42

bored, because we're all overstimulated. And you said

44:44

one of the things to increase natural dopamine

44:46

is to get bored. And you had loads

44:48

of people on the leaf going, get bored,

44:51

we haven't increased dopamine, I don't get it.

44:53

But it makes absolute sense. We're not allowing

44:55

ourselves any time, not even to get bored,

44:57

but just to like, not

44:59

be overstimulated. We're just constantly

45:02

overstimulated. And they're gonna think

45:04

we underestimate the impact that's having. Yeah,

45:06

getting bored is an interesting one. That's why the

45:08

comments were funny on that. Because getting

45:11

bored in itself isn't something like rises dopamine

45:13

really significantly. That's not the basis of that.

45:15

The whole idea of getting bored is so

45:18

much of the activities we're doing is constantly

45:20

spiking and crashing the dopamine phones or sugar

45:22

or booze or whatever it may be. Getting

45:24

bored means the dopamine is doing nothing. The

45:26

dopamine is just staying still. And rather than

45:29

these big fluctuations, which eventually exhaust the dopamine

45:31

and the baseline gets lower and lower, and

45:33

we get more and more inside depressed type

45:35

energy, being bored is going to be something

45:37

that's like solidifying your dopamine effectively, it's strengthening

45:39

your ability to be in that state of

45:41

low stimulation. Overstimulation is causing low

45:44

dopamine. So if you can get into low levels

45:46

of stimulation, you're just going to have the capacity

45:48

to do things that are a bit more uncomfortable.

45:50

Like if you need to exercise, that's kind of

45:53

boring, to be honest, or go out for a

45:55

walk or cook and eat a healthy meal, or

45:57

read a book or work and focus better. you

46:00

have to have the capacity to do hard things. And

46:02

being in a state where you are a bit bored,

46:04

it's very healthy for the mind. I mean, one

46:06

of my, I'd say, greatest joys in

46:08

life, or even just work, is creativity,

46:11

whether it's painting for my

46:13

own fun, or writing, or dreaming

46:15

up an idea, or whatever it

46:17

might be. And I

46:19

sometimes forget that I have to have some

46:22

sort of fallow period to do that well. So I

46:24

just think, no, keep working, you can do this, you

46:26

could do that, you could do this. And I remember

46:28

this one day where I said

46:30

to my husband, let's just go to an art gallery. We both had

46:33

a morning off work. Let's just go to

46:35

an art gallery and mooch about. We hadn't done that ever,

46:38

actually, quite, I was gonna say for years, but ever.

46:40

And we had a really nice time walking around. And the

46:42

next day I set out to do a painting, and it

46:44

was for a charity thing. And I

46:47

painted the best I've ever painted, because I had

46:49

that sort of, you know,

46:51

it wasn't boredom necessarily, but it was

46:53

time out of that overstimulation. And

46:55

just to sort of naturally look around and

46:58

wonder and comment on the paintings

47:00

we were looking at, did something. So I

47:02

have to always think back to that one

47:04

very specific day that those moments out really

47:06

count. And they change your productivity, your

47:09

creativity, your ability to cope with stress.

47:11

You know, when we overstimulated, as soon

47:13

as a stressful thing comes in, we're

47:16

screwed, because we can't take any

47:18

more on our plate. We've got too much going on.

47:20

So I think it's, again, looking for

47:22

those tiny moments, I guess, where we can create

47:24

a bit of space, which sometimes feels impossible in

47:26

your busy parent work, whatever, but

47:29

there's always a little bit more space than

47:31

we care to believe. Even if it's, like

47:33

you say, five minutes of sunlight in the

47:35

morning. Yeah, that's an interesting one,

47:37

because to get super creative, like

47:39

with art or something like that, you need to be

47:41

really like present in that experience. You don't need to

47:44

be like chasing the idea of what's this art gonna

47:46

look like. You need to be like fully immersed in

47:48

its creation. When you went and did

47:50

that thing with your husband at the art gallery,

47:52

that would have made your mind insanely present. When

47:54

we're in hyper-productive states, we're constantly on the what's next,

47:56

what's next, what's next, looking at the task list, chasing,

47:58

chasing, chasing. And that's, And that's like a very

48:01

agitated place to be in. It's not necessarily that

48:03

bad. Like we gotta be productive sometimes, but when

48:05

you get deeply into the present, that's something the

48:07

mind loves to be in. And that's what's so

48:10

interesting about like scrolling the phone, for example, because

48:12

it's effectively giving us fake present moment. Because it's

48:14

immersing us in this thing. Our dopamine gets super

48:16

high, when dopamine is high, we often do get

48:19

really present in something. And it's like this fake

48:21

presence, and then you come off it, and it's

48:23

almost like your brain will rebound, and then it

48:25

will think tons either end, and then you go

48:28

into fake presence. Whereas an activity like art

48:30

or creativity or an art gallery,

48:32

that's like actual natural slow, slightly

48:35

boring, but not boring, but like slightly

48:37

calmer presence. And like the brain needs

48:39

that, it needs these slower paced things.

48:41

Yeah, it's so cool. I need to go and do it again.

48:43

I need to go to an

48:46

art gallery soon. Yeah. I'm sure you've

48:48

incentivized me hugely. Like it's so interesting,

48:50

and I think I'm

48:52

so keen to just learn

48:55

more about what you're saying. Because I think

48:57

personally, and also just the work that I'm doing

48:59

now, it feels like a bit of a foundation

49:02

that I don't understand as well as I

49:04

could in terms of boosting my own mood,

49:06

but also talking about this stuff really openly,

49:09

I think is extremely helpful, and I love

49:11

what you're doing. So TJ, thank you so

49:13

much for being on Happy Place. Thank

49:15

you. Can I bring it together one final thing?

49:17

Wrap this shit up, TJ. I really

49:19

wanna bring it together. So what I'd love

49:21

people to take action from this, I think it's magic

49:23

to listen to podcasts, but I think the most useful

49:26

thing is if something changes in how you're doing your

49:28

life. So when you wake up

49:30

tomorrow morning, this will be you and everyone listening. First

49:32

thing is you're gonna try and not go on your

49:34

phone for five minutes. Yeah. That's gonna

49:36

be it. You're gonna go brush your teeth and splash

49:38

in cold water on your face and make your bed,

49:40

but you're not gonna do it for five minutes. The

49:42

second thing is gonna be for the oxytocin. We'll do

49:44

one for each. Second is gonna be for oxytocin. You're

49:46

just gonna ponder in your mind one achievement from yesterday,

49:48

something that feels like progress. Serotonin goal,

49:51

next thing in the morning, is gonna be try

49:53

and get some sunlight. A little bit off the

49:55

phone, celebrate achievement, bit of sunlight. And then endorphins,

49:57

we didn't go too deep into that, but it's

49:59

all about physics. exertion and one of the

50:01

absolute best ways is if you sing and

50:03

you really sing because it physically exerts a

50:05

chest and the body releases in dolphins that's

50:07

why you get the euphoric feeling when you're

50:09

singing so if you can do those four

50:11

things no phone celebrate one achievement get into

50:13

some sunlight and sing that's gonna be a

50:15

good action to take to get your dose

50:17

going. Oh my kids are gonna be cringing tomorrow

50:19

morning. You can do it in your car or something. No no.

50:22

I'm gonna be doing it in the kitchen and they

50:24

are gonna hate me but I can't wait.

50:26

I think that's a wonderful practical sequence of

50:28

events that we can all try. Yeah. I

50:31

guess the key is keeping it up for a

50:33

considerable amount of time so we can see some

50:36

sort of benefit but they're all very simple things

50:38

we can do so that was extremely

50:40

valuable thank you. Cool. Thank you TJ.

50:42

Thank you so much. I

50:45

really like the way that TJ took control

50:47

at the end of that episode he was

50:49

not done he still had more tips for

50:51

us which was very very helpful indeed really

50:54

good ones to be fair. Sunlight.

50:56

It's all so easy and obvious.

50:59

Don't be on the phone straight away. That

51:02

is one that I've been doing since and

51:04

my god it makes a difference and singing

51:08

which I've been doing less so mainly

51:10

because like the other day I was singing

51:12

Annie Lennox walking on broken glass and

51:14

my son shot me such a

51:17

stare that I stopped but when

51:19

they were at school I love a right old good

51:21

sing song. TJ the biggest thank

51:23

you for coming and spending some time with me

51:25

it was so brilliant and I think your book

51:27

is going to be exactly what we all need

51:29

right now it's called The Dose Effect and it

51:32

will be out later this year and in the

51:34

meantime you can follow him on socials it's at

51:36

TJ Power what a great name and

51:38

you can also follow us too if you want we're

51:40

at Happy Place official. By the

51:42

way we briefly mentioned the shitty committee

51:45

all those annoying voices in your head

51:47

doing their best to keep you sad

51:49

or frustrated and there's actually a recent

51:52

episode hearing from loads of great people

51:54

like Ruby Wax, Vex King, Tim Peek

51:57

about how they tackle their shitty committee.

52:00

So do scroll back just a tiny bit in your

52:02

podcast feed to have a listen to that if

52:04

and when you need a little mood boost.

52:07

Alright until next time it's a

52:09

massive thanks to TJ, to the

52:11

producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place

52:13

Studios and to you. Go

52:16

and have a good old sing song! Thank

52:30

you for listening! Marketers

52:46

and advertisers, brands big and small.

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