0:00

In her new book, Attack From

0:02

Within, former Us Attorney and Msnbc

0:04

Legal analyst Barber Mcquaid breaks down

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the ways disinformation works. Mcquaid explains

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why America is particularly vulnerable to

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disinformation, how authoritarian to use this

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information to seize power throughout history,

0:14

and she offer solutions to counter

0:16

this information. In this election year,

0:18

Timothy Snyder, author of On Tyranny

0:21

says this book is a necessary

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call to the ethical commitment to

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truth that all democracies require. Published

0:27

by Seven Stories, Press Attack From

0:29

Within is available. Now wherever books are

0:31

sold. Out I had

0:33

a big moment over the weekend was at. I

0:35

wore my Apple this and pro on an

0:38

airplane for the first time. Oh My. God.

0:40

Well yeah, you do appear to have any

0:42

visible injuries on, just doesn't look like you're

0:45

at it. As

0:47

I did aca ah well a a wig

0:49

great so I I i I pull it

0:51

out I put it on I connected the

0:53

the wife i just like join stern told

0:55

us last week it was possible to do

0:57

and I watch. Suits.

1:00

In. Like I max read, a full size.

1:02

Like the window that I am at. yeah,

1:04

I'm watching suits and is as big as

1:07

the freakin' Playing at. Meghan Markle has never

1:09

been larger is exactly. But I ran into

1:11

a dilemma which was you know how you

1:13

can turn the dial for immersion? Yeah, so

1:15

you can either turn it so that you

1:18

can see everything around you? Yeah, and you

1:20

just have this kind of floating window with

1:22

suits playing or you can turn the dial

1:24

all the way to the other side which

1:26

case you don't see anything around you and

1:28

your just you can pick your background. I

1:31

was on the surface of Mars

1:33

so this. Wasn't

1:35

the case for like wanting to see what's

1:37

around you. So here we go. So I

1:39

immersed myself. I'm on the surface of Mars

1:41

and watching suits. It works great except I

1:43

miss the drink cart. Ah,

1:46

Now I don't see the drink car coming by and

1:48

I miss my drink. Not so great. Be as

1:50

a flight attendant. could have just tap you on the

1:52

shoulder and said you a drink but instead they made

1:54

the right choices either through that. If I wanted to

1:57

let light of that. You. Get his oh damn

1:59

drink. So this is the. Lemme A Flying in the

2:01

vision pro I learned about. This is not actually

2:03

a dilemma issue if he wanted to write

2:05

a lunatic needs with reality of my friends have

2:07

much choice is yours. I'm

2:14

Kevin or is attack homes within your time. Passes

2:22

the House of Representatives, witness said

2:24

we were asked the same middleton

2:26

actually know how to photoshop and

2:28

finally with your side mail droids.

2:31

That's when investigation and. Maybe.

2:51

Or Casey. This week we have to

2:53

talk about what is happening with Tic

2:55

Toc because it has been a very

2:57

big week for that app and I

2:59

would say for social media in general.

3:01

Yeah, there had been a lot of

3:03

moves over the years to maybe ban

3:05

six talk, but what we have seen

3:07

this week is the most serious of

3:09

those moves that we've seen so far.

3:11

On Wednesday of this week the Us

3:13

House of Representatives voted to pass something

3:15

called the Protecting Americans From for an

3:17

Adversary Controlled Applications Act or papa ah

3:19

as A Citizen. So this bill. Passed

3:21

the House of Representatives on Wednesday with

3:24

a vote of three hundred and fifty

3:26

two to sixty five. So pretty overwhelming

3:28

bipartisan support for the spill season. It's

3:30

a bill that would essentially require By

3:32

Dance, the Chinese conglomerate that owns Tic

3:35

Tac to sell it. So Casey, let's

3:37

talk about what the still means and

3:39

how we got here and what the

3:41

implications are. But first, let's just. Say.

3:44

Like what's in the bill, so do

3:46

things. One epic insight into law: It

3:48

requires by Dance to sell tic toc

3:50

within a hundred and eighty days. And

3:52

two, if by chance to use is

3:55

not to do that, The Bill creates

3:57

a process that would ultimately let the

3:59

President decide. Whether the app should be

4:01

banned on national security grounds, right? So

4:03

basically, if you have tic tac on

4:05

your phone and this bill passes a

4:07

hundred and eighty days from when it

4:09

passes, your app will not be able

4:11

to get updates anymore and it will

4:13

be available in the app. Source loses.

4:15

So let us remind each other how

4:17

we got here because this is not

4:19

a new topic As you remember, Donald

4:21

Trump when he was the President tried

4:23

to ban tic toc are for sale

4:25

of tic toc. That came close to

4:27

happening but then sort of fell apart

4:29

in. The late stages of that process

4:32

of their been other attempts to ban

4:34

Tic Toc Montana actually passed a law

4:36

banning Tic Toc it within the state

4:38

that was overturned by a court. So

4:41

this has been a long process and

4:43

a lot of different organizations and lobbying

4:45

groups have been pushing for a Tick

4:48

tock banned for years. But why you

4:50

think this is coming to had now?

4:52

Well, in a way, there have been

4:55

a series of events that brought us

4:57

to this moment over the past year.

4:59

Tic. Toc was banned on federal devices.

5:01

A number of states moved to say

5:04

that hey if you are a state

5:06

employee we're going to sort of were

5:08

net. Take this thing off of your

5:10

thoughts are behind the scenes. By Dance

5:12

was having a bunch of conversations. They

5:14

tried to implement this program called project

5:17

Texas which would start a silo Americans

5:19

data. You end up as a create

5:21

a bunch of assurances essentially that to

5:23

talk or.be used for evil here in

5:25

the United States and all of those

5:27

things just fell on deaf ears and.

5:30

I think as we have begun to approach

5:32

or election here in the United States, kevin

5:34

lawmakers are increasingly concerned about what's happening in.

5:36

One thing we learned is that the binding

5:38

ministration with really wants to ban said talks

5:41

give a classified briefing to members of Congress.

5:43

recently. It's in which they made the can.

5:45

We don't know exactly what was said it

5:47

as briefings, but whatever it is, ah, seem

5:49

to really motivate a lot of members of

5:52

Congress to gather. see how? the upper? yeah,

5:54

the that's a good point. That Project Texas

5:56

thing that we've talked about on the show

5:58

before was not successful. Herms of convincing

6:00

Americans and American law makers that tic

6:03

Toc was no longer a potential threat

6:05

to national security am I also remember

6:07

you went down to a tick tock

6:10

Transparency Center has I wish they were

6:12

sort of giving tours of to various

6:14

reporters and lawmakers and skeptics to try

6:17

to say look we are we are

6:19

being transparent We are. Yeah, we're letting

6:21

people see our algorithm so they can

6:24

see there's no serve nefarious chinese are

6:26

in us plot to see propaganda in

6:28

there and that ultimately. Did not appear

6:30

to be convincing them a people either. Yeah,

6:33

I mean, a put Tic Toc in this

6:35

position of having to continuously prove a negative,

6:37

which is that it had never been used

6:39

to do anything bad and never would and

6:41

it's just really hard to do. that's yeah.

6:43

And I think for a lot of people

6:46

including me that the assumption was that there

6:48

would be this tension over Tic Toc, but

6:50

ultimately nothing would happen. But.

6:52

Now it appears there is this real

6:54

bipartisan effort that may actually succeed, and

6:56

the question of why is this happening

6:59

now is really interesting and I think

7:01

it has a lot to do frankly

7:03

with something that we haven't talked about

7:05

much on this show, which is the

7:08

conflict in Israel and Gaza, which has

7:10

brought new attention to Tick Tock in

7:12

part because there's a answer coalition of

7:14

people in Washington who believe that tic

7:16

toc is being used to turn American

7:19

public opinion against Israel and there's been

7:21

some viral analysis. That showed that pro

7:23

Palestinian videos on Tic Toc were dramatically

7:26

outperforming Pro Israel videos and the Wall

7:28

Street Journal Reports said this was a

7:30

big issue that caught the attention of

7:32

lawmakers on both sides of the aisle

7:35

who said this app is a problem.

7:37

It is basically you know, helping to

7:39

brainwash American youth into you know, not

7:42

supporting Israel, which I think is dubious

7:44

for all kinds of reasons, but that

7:46

does appear to benefactor. Yeah, you know

7:48

around this time there was a tool

7:51

that advertisers could. Use to track

7:53

the performance of various hash tags

7:55

and some researchers used it to

7:57

see that videos with pro Palestine

7:59

Hostile. Appeared at times to be

8:01

getting more than sixty times more views and

8:03

videos with pro Israel hashtags. We don't know

8:06

why, and there's not really any evidence that

8:08

Tic Toc was putting it's storm on the

8:10

scale, but that research really seems like it's

8:12

scandalize. Congress has once again drew attention to

8:14

the fact that if someone a tick tock

8:16

were by dance with the Chinese Communist Party's

8:18

did want to put their thumb on the

8:21

scale, there was absolutely nothing to stop them.

8:23

And this has been the core problem that

8:25

said talk as ads from the starts, which

8:27

is that even if it does nothing wrong,

8:29

there. Is always the potential that the

8:31

Chinese Communist Party could force them to

8:34

break Cillizza What the process from here.

8:36

So the first thing that is needed

8:38

to turn this bill puff aka into

8:40

law is that it needs to pass

8:42

the house. That is happens Now the

8:45

next step is it needs to be

8:47

introduced to and passed by the Senate.

8:49

Do think that's likely to happen to?

8:51

Well, actually maybe not. There's been some

8:53

reporting in the Washington Post this week

8:56

that Sen. Rand Paul has come out

8:58

and said that he does not. Intend

9:00

to support this bill. He thinks that

9:02

Americans should be free to use whatever

9:04

social media apps they want to and

9:06

he just as nazis the need for

9:08

this app to be bay and us.

9:11

I would also say that sucks. Schumer,

9:13

who is the Senate Majority leader and

9:15

a democrat, seems pretty wobbly on this

9:17

one as well. He has not committed

9:19

to bringing this thanks to a floor

9:21

vote. and I believe your title lobbyists

9:23

are on Capitol Hill and they'll tell

9:25

you that Chuck Schumer is a Big

9:27

Reasons that and a lot of tackles.

9:29

Don't get some ass because he's I

9:31

just sort of doesn't believe that they

9:33

need to be regulated it much at

9:36

all Silks. Because of those two reasons

9:38

and the fact that there is still

9:40

no companion bill in the Senate this

9:42

habit I think this one does have

9:44

long odds. had a bit, but will

9:46

you six? I think it's a passer

9:48

center. I think the I I've been

9:50

surprised at V or of bipartisan support.

9:52

We've seen a few lawmakers come out

9:54

vocally in defense of tic toc release

9:56

in opposition to forcing it to be

9:59

sold, but the. The already of Congress

10:01

people has signaled that they would support this

10:03

if it is pass by the senate. He

10:05

would then moved to President Biden who would

10:07

need to sign it's the White House has

10:09

indicated that he would and. From.

10:12

There then the bill would need to sort

10:14

of survive legal challenges. With spite Dance has

10:16

signaled it will mount. If this bill is

10:19

passed, they will try to stop this in

10:21

court so the bill would need to overcome

10:23

that challenge. But if it does say all

10:26

of that happens and is bill is passed

10:28

and holds up in courts it would give

10:30

by Dance about six months to undertake a

10:32

sale of a massive tech product that it

10:35

really doesn't wanna sell. Yeah, and when you

10:37

talk to the folks at Bite the and

10:39

they will say it's that. Make no mistake.

10:41

this. Is not about assailed. This is

10:44

a de facto bay and have to

10:46

talk in the United States and I

10:48

believe the reason that they are saying

10:50

that is that the Chinese government has

10:53

given indications that it will not allow

10:55

By Dance to divest. Tic Toc and

10:57

so By Dance will effectively have no

10:59

choice but tube stop offering the Up

11:01

and United States. Yeah, so Tic Toc

11:04

has obviously not taken this news of

11:06

this bill lying down. They have mounted

11:08

and aggressive lobbying campaign in Washington. They

11:10

have a huge lobbying team. There that

11:13

is presumably fanning out over Capitol Hill

11:15

trying to convince lawmakers to drop their

11:17

support for the spill. They also have

11:19

started mobilizing users. So this week Tic

11:22

Toc sent a push notification too many

11:24

many of It's United States users that

11:26

urged them to call their representatives and

11:29

called this law a quote. Total ban

11:31

on Tic talks with is not totally

11:33

true. It doesn't fancy target Us forces

11:35

by the have to sell it or

11:38

but the company wrote in this notification

11:40

that this bill would quotes damage. Millions

11:42

of businesses destroy the livelihoods of

11:45

creators across the country and deny

11:47

artists and audience. And did you

11:49

get this notifications? I did not

11:51

because I do not enabled sick

11:53

Hugs has said push notifications because

11:55

like every other Ap exams too

11:57

many right? So this was shown

12:00

to users who open their and

12:02

it did apparently result in a

12:04

flood of calls to congressional representatives

12:06

in their offices. Or one Congressmen

12:08

Florida's Neil Done at told the

12:10

Bbc that. His office had

12:13

received more than nine hundred calls

12:15

from Tic Talkers, many of which

12:17

were vulnerable school aged children and

12:19

some of whose extreme rhetoric had

12:21

to be flagged for security reasons.

12:26

With I don't I don't understand

12:28

where they like threatening the congress

12:30

person if I were banned going

12:32

to assume that Yes, they were

12:34

absolutely frightening the congressperson. So a

12:36

flood of kids contacting their their

12:38

representatives to complain about this bill.

12:41

What? Do you think about the

12:43

strategy? Well ah, we have seen

12:45

it used effectively before Goober would

12:47

do this and cities were that

12:50

were threatening to ban uber. they

12:52

would sort of show information in

12:54

the app saying hey, you know

12:56

what is yes, call your your

12:58

representative here. We've seen near Facebook

13:00

and Google put banners and the

13:02

op's talking about issues of concern

13:04

desire that neutrality and other things

13:06

mrs always been pretty non controversial

13:08

actually and it is demonstrated that

13:10

these apps do. Have really dedicated user

13:13

base of they wanna keep using these

13:15

apps And so I was laughing this

13:17

week's Kevin when Congress was just so

13:19

outraged at the fact that some of

13:21

their to their constituents called them to

13:23

express an opinion about a bill that

13:25

was have them for herself right? I

13:27

do think it was an interesting strategy

13:29

in part because one of the charges

13:31

that. Tic. Toc and by dancer trying

13:33

to dodge is this idea that they could

13:36

be used as like you know sir secret

13:38

tools of political influence and with one of

13:40

the way they were are responding to this

13:42

is by becoming and a non secret tool

13:45

of political influence like literally trying to like

13:47

influence the political process in the united with

13:49

these push notifications. But that aside I do

13:51

think this is a playbook we've seen before

13:54

from other companies are that are being challenge

13:56

despite new regulation as a game is is

13:58

the message from Congress. Don't want to

14:00

hear from their constituents about this. Is it

14:03

like only call as if you're a registered

14:05

lobbyist? like is that what they're telling

14:07

us? That kind of such. yeah I kind

14:09

of sucks but it all. it also

14:11

is the case of these like bees these

14:14

Congress these congressional offices are not set

14:16

up to handle the volume of of incoming

14:18

calls. Gyres I don't you try getting

14:20

nine hundred calls from angry T Y Y

14:22

you like it. Whilst with Ufos exist

14:24

in office of the progress of of have

14:26

lots of illicit constituent beanbag like a

14:28

what like your door- Order that the front

14:31

door that the message that was a getting through

14:33

auditors the a minor and I think they said

14:35

they should be able to isabella texture congress person

14:37

because in between a did they text us so

14:39

often when they're fundraisers rarely get elected I think

14:41

it would be it would be turnabout. As Fairplay

14:43

I grew that's. So. Another.

14:45

Wrinkle in this Tic Toc story is what

14:47

has been happening with Donald Trump. Because Donald

14:50

Trump obviously no fan of Tic Toc under

14:52

his administration tried to force the have to

14:54

be sold much like the by the ministry

14:56

son has done this time around. but you

14:58

flip flopped he does. He did a tick

15:01

tock flip flop and he now says that

15:03

he does not support are banning Tic Toc

15:05

in the U S. He told Cnbc on

15:07

Monday that quote there's a lot of good

15:10

and a lot of bad with Tic Toc

15:12

and he also said that if Tic Tac

15:14

were banned. It would make Facebook bigger

15:16

and that he considers Facebook to be

15:19

an enemy of the people. So they

15:21

see why Donald Trump now are changing

15:23

a student. Tic tacs? Well look, you

15:25

know you're always on shaky ground when

15:28

you try to project herself into the

15:30

mind of Donald Trump. But we know

15:32

a couple of things. One this is

15:34

that there is this billionaire with the

15:37

incredible name. Observe. Yeah, yeah, Yeah

15:40

as is a very risk

15:42

person and big donor who.

15:45

Recently befriended Trump's and yeah, says company

15:47

owns a fifteen percent stake and by

15:49

dance he and he ah we believe

15:51

has been lobbying front by the seeds

15:53

be and the thought they are. The

15:55

suspicion there is that there is some

15:57

sort of quid pro quo as a

15:59

cake you leave tic toc alone. I'm

16:01

going to be a big backer to

16:03

your campaign at a time when he

16:05

desperately need money. Yes, a Donald Trump

16:07

has officially gotten yeah, Sulfide. Rice's

16:10

a story about that yeah, suffocation

16:12

of Donald Trump assume So another

16:15

factor here is it: A lot

16:17

of people in Down From Camp,

16:19

including Kelly and Conway, his former

16:21

adviser, have been lobbying him in

16:23

Tic Tacs defense. The Washington Post

16:26

also reported recently that part of

16:28

Donald Trump's antipathy toward Face. Book

16:30

in particular has been fueled by watching

16:32

a documentary about how Mark Zuckerberg donations

16:34

to serve election integrity causes in twenties

16:36

when he helped fuel his defeat. According

16:38

to Wash and Post Down from Watch

16:40

this documentary about Mark Zuckerberg political donations

16:42

got very mad about it and as

16:44

ever since been as opposed to Facebook

16:46

and any grounds obviously banning Tic Toc

16:48

in the U S or one of

16:50

the main beneficiaries of that would be

16:52

Facebook and Matter because they have competing

16:54

for for video apps like Instagram. Real

16:56

yeah and we we should say them

16:58

the money Zuckerberg donated was to support

17:00

basic elections infrastructure so that people could

17:02

vote. These are not partisan donations. this

17:04

was on his and selects local elected

17:07

offices to make sure that the election

17:09

could just sort of runs smoothly and

17:11

because the Republicans lost it it's infuriated

17:13

them ever since. It is a huge

17:15

talking points on the right is that

17:17

Mark Zuckerberg as an enemy of the

17:19

people because he supported people being able

17:21

to vote self. Just want to say

17:23

that real quick Snell When I will

17:25

also say though cabin is that Trump

17:27

is right that one of the two

17:29

primary beneficiaries of such a ban is

17:31

Matt Us and we've spent a long

17:33

time now in this country worrying that

17:35

Matter is too big and too powerful

17:37

and it's would absolutely make Mother bigger

17:39

and more powerful and the other one

17:41

presumably as is you to wrangle and

17:43

you to beauty of already the most

17:45

used app among young people in the

17:47

United States. And if you take away

17:49

tix hawks you could you better believe

17:51

us of the average time they spend

17:53

on you tube is about to go

17:55

up so. One question that I have for you

17:58

that I'd i don't know the answer to his his. We

18:00

know if Mehta and Google, which owns

18:02

You Tube, are doing any kind of

18:04

lobbying around the spill. I remember several

18:07

years ago there were stories about how

18:09

many had hired a joke he lobbying

18:11

firm called targeted Victories basically to try

18:13

to convince lawmakers. the tick tock was

18:15

a unique danger to American teams. What

18:18

are Tic Tacs rivals doing this time

18:20

around? So I I don't have any

18:22

specific knowledge of what they're doing in

18:24

this case, but for the exact reason

18:27

that you just mentioned, I do assume

18:29

that their lobbyists. Are in the ears

18:31

of lawmakers saying hey this is the time

18:33

to get rid of this Thanks! This thing

18:35

is dangerous Met It is always scheming to

18:37

eliminate it's rivals whenever they can see. This

18:39

is a really juicy opportunity. Why why else

18:41

would you pay the lobbyists that they pay

18:44

it's you weren't telling them to go hard

18:46

after this rates. So let's talk about be

18:48

that are core argument here that tic toc

18:50

needs to be banned or sold because it

18:52

is a threat to national security and maybe

18:54

it is a good way to do this

18:56

would be for. Us just to

18:59

outline like what is the best possible

19:01

case for banning Tic Toc and then

19:03

we'll talk about the case against it.

19:05

but like let's let's like really try

19:07

to steal man the the worries that

19:09

people have hear. What? Is

19:11

the best possible argument you can imagine

19:13

for banning tic tacs. I would say

19:15

predicts what is essentially a fairness argument.

19:17

China does not allow us social networks

19:19

to operate their even though we allow

19:22

their social networks to operate. See Earth

19:24

and I think that there is a

19:26

question of essentially fair play rights. China

19:28

gets this rug were if they wanted.

19:30

they could push pro China narratives using

19:33

these big apps that they have built

19:35

in the United States. The United States

19:37

is not have the same opportunity inside

19:39

China, so that's one. Thing I would

19:41

say it's the second thing is that

19:44

I think that of the data privacy

19:46

argument is real. We have had Emily

19:48

Baker White on this show Bite Dance

19:51

use data about her tits talk accounts

19:53

to surveil her and other journalists because

19:55

they were worried about what she was

19:57

reporting on about their companies. Said. Question

20:00

of could buy dance use Americans data

20:02

against them If thought abstract, it's already

20:04

happened. The company's hands are not leads.

20:06

How many Americans you want that to

20:08

happen to until you take action. So

20:11

those are two things that I would

20:13

say What: What? What are using whatever

20:15

reasons might what you might want to

20:17

be a by dance. Well one argument

20:19

is just that we already have laws

20:21

in this country that restrict the foreign

20:23

ownership of important media properties like a

20:26

Chinese. Companies would not automatically be allowed

20:28

to by Cnn or Fox News tomorrow.

20:30

If they wanted to, they would have

20:32

to basically go through an approval process

20:34

with the Se seats because our laws

20:36

limit be foreign ownership of those kinds

20:38

of broadcast networks. Rupert Murdoch in fact

20:41

basically had to become an American citizen

20:43

before he could buy Fox News because

20:45

that was the law on the book

20:47

fan and the Lawn the books now.

20:49

So in some cases it is frames

20:51

that. We. Would allow a Chinese

20:54

company company owned by an adversary of

20:56

the United States to own a very

20:58

important broadcast medium in the United States.

21:00

We don't allow it on Tv. Why

21:03

would we allowed on smartphones? So that's

21:05

one argument there. Another argument for banning

21:07

Chicago is essentially that the existence of

21:10

an app that is so popular with

21:12

Americans that is. Controlled by

21:14

an adversary of the U S is

21:16

not that already has, and gazing has

21:18

sneaky attempts to sway American public opinion,

21:20

but just that it could. We've now

21:22

seen just this week that when Tic

21:24

Toc wants, you can try to get

21:26

a bunch of American young people to

21:28

call their Congress people. That is a

21:30

political influence campaign. It's one. The Tic

21:32

Toc itself was behind. And.

21:34

You have to think like, what could

21:37

Tic Toc do in the upcoming election?

21:39

What would it do in the case

21:41

of a war between China and the

21:43

Us? If it can mobilize American citizens

21:45

to oppose a tick tock bands, Consider

21:47

what it could do if for example,

21:49

China invaded Taiwan. What it could do

21:52

if there was a war between you

21:54

know, Chinese backs of state and the

21:56

United States, or it's allies. There's.

21:59

So many ways. The Ap this powerful

22:01

in the hands of an adversary could be

22:03

a danger to us interests. and so in

22:05

a while I do think that some of

22:07

the more extreme arguments for banning tic toc

22:09

on national security grounds am don't really register

22:11

with me. For me, it's more of like

22:13

our well, what could happen in the future

22:15

How could this thing be used in a

22:17

way that that resists American interests well at

22:20

the same time Come in. There are reasons

22:22

why I say it would be bad to

22:24

ban sucked out and we suck bothers. Yeah,

22:26

so what are the what are the most

22:28

convincing reasons not to Been sick, talkative, To

22:30

oppose the bill. So one big reason

22:32

is that you're not addressing the root

22:35

of the problem here. We don't have

22:37

data privacy laws in this country. If

22:39

you're worried that your data might be

22:41

misused by Ted Talks, I guarantee you

22:43

there are a lot of other companies

22:45

that are actively miss using your data

22:48

and profiting from it. In for a

22:50

fact, we're going to talk about that

22:52

leader in this very show rates Silks.

22:54

This is. He goes far beyond sick

22:56

talks and I'm continually surprise that Americans

22:58

aren't more upset about. All the ways

23:01

of their data is being misused today.

23:03

and my worry is that when we

23:05

ban sick talks, Congress will say, essentially

23:07

wash their hands of the issue even

23:09

though Americans are gonna continue to be

23:11

harmed actively by things that at least

23:14

when it comes a tick tock are

23:16

still mostly theoretical vs. the other argument

23:18

against this bill that I've sound compelling

23:20

I'm is one that organizations like the

23:22

A C L U and the Electronic

23:24

Frontier Foundation have been making. Both of

23:27

those groups oppose this bill in part

23:29

because they say. That what's happening on

23:31

Tic Toc his First Amendment protected speech

23:33

and that essentially by banning this app

23:35

because you don't like what's being shown

23:38

to people on it's you are not

23:40

just punishing a foreign government, you are

23:42

also punishing millions of Americans were engaging

23:44

in constitutionally protected speech on this apps.

23:46

And moreover, these order this and say

23:49

this just gives a blueprint and a

23:51

playbook and a vote of support to

23:53

any authoritarian government around the world who

23:55

wants to censor their own citizens speech

23:58

on social media. If you are you

24:00

a dictator and in some country and

24:02

you don't like what people are sharing

24:04

on an app, you can now point

24:06

to this bill and say look, the

24:09

U S is banning social media apps

24:11

because it deems them a threat to

24:13

national security and we are going to

24:15

ban an app that we don't like

24:18

as well. Yeah, and I think that

24:20

that concern is particularly pointed given that

24:22

it really does seem like a big

24:24

factor motivating Congress here is that the

24:26

content on said talk is to pro

24:29

Palestinian for them. That really does

24:31

seem to be one of the big

24:33

reasons why does Bill game so much

24:35

momentum so quickly is something about specific

24:37

political speech Self's I do think the

24:39

courts will weigh in there. I think

24:42

there's one other saying that is worth

24:44

saying about why. I think banning Tic

24:46

Toc could be bad, which is that

24:48

it takes the other biggest platforms in

24:50

his country and it makes them bigger

24:52

and richer and more powerful. Rights Self

24:55

matter he and Google and You Tube

24:57

are as the other platforms were all

24:59

sorts of. Video is being uploaded every

25:01

day. That is where more video it

25:03

is being consumed in saran. Had more

25:05

downloads than said taught last year. You

25:07

Tube is the most used app among

25:10

young people in the United States. and

25:12

when you get rid upset, talk and

25:14

out that has one hundred seventy million

25:16

users are months. they are all just

25:18

one to go. Spend more time on

25:20

you Tube, more time on Instagram and

25:22

other met a property so it's gonna

25:24

be hugely beneficial to those companies. I

25:27

before that since talks controversy came along.

25:29

Cabbage people, you. And me spend most of

25:31

our time worrying that matter and google were

25:33

too rich and too powerful. So this is

25:35

just something that worsens that problem even more.

25:37

Total. And we know that this is not

25:39

hypothetical. Ah, as a result, because. To.

25:42

Talk has actually been banned before in India

25:44

of it was banned in India in Twenty

25:46

Twenty and we saw that what happened after

25:48

the Tic Toc band went into effect of

25:51

there were some like little home grown serve

25:53

in the In app that pops up to

25:55

serve taps or some of the audience but

25:57

the vast vast majority of users. Just

26:00

started using Instagram real and you Tube instead.

26:02

those companies got bigger in India because Tic

26:04

Toc was bands and I think it's fair

26:06

to assume that the same thing would happen

26:09

here and for all kinds of reasons. You

26:11

might not want that to happen if you're

26:13

regulator. Yeah, so we'll look, We'll see what

26:15

happens here. I do think that this bill

26:17

still has a long road ahead event, you

26:19

know, look at. We have never pass attack

26:22

regulations in this country since the big tech

26:24

last began in twenty seventeen. So if this

26:26

happens, it would truly be silly to unprecedented

26:28

in the modern. Era Us but at the same

26:30

time, that house bill. Move faster. The basically

26:32

you know anything we've seen during that time

26:35

when it seems regulating big tax and so

26:37

this is something we should keep our eyes

26:39

on. Bread cookies, the weighing all of these

26:41

arguments for and against banning tic Toc like

26:43

where'd you. Come. Out of this,

26:45

what is your preferred outcome here I

26:47

have to say and it makes me

26:49

uncomfortable the say, but I do sort

26:51

of lean on the side of the

26:54

banning. It really is. Yeah, I you

26:56

know again that fairness thing bothers me.

26:58

The fact that we can't have us

27:00

social networks in China, but they can

27:02

of social networks year. There's just like

27:04

kind of an imbalance there. We have

27:06

rules in this country around media ownership

27:08

by foreign entities Would you describe for

27:10

us? I don't understand why you would

27:13

have those rules for broadcast. That were

27:15

of sense newspapers that arguably don't even

27:17

matter anymore and not have them for the

27:19

internet where maybe the majority of political discourse

27:21

takes place. Now Silks, this is feels like

27:24

a moment where we need to update or

27:26

threat models up the our understanding of how

27:28

the media works and say hates it does?

27:30

It actually makes sense for their to be

27:33

something like this in the United States. Am

27:35

I say that knowing that if Congress follow

27:37

through we are going to get rid of

27:40

a lot of protected political speech? We are

27:42

going to make matter and you to bigger.

27:44

And more powerful in ways that make me totally

27:46

uncomfortable. So I hate be options that I have

27:49

the earth But if you were to make me

27:51

pick one of pride the one I would pick

27:53

where have O W E as I I think

27:55

my preferred outcome here would be that by dance

27:57

cells to talk to an American company to. You

28:00

know, Microsoft or Liberal, an Oracle and

28:02

Walmart. We're going to team up to

28:04

bid on Tic Toc his back during

28:06

the Trump days. I like something like

28:08

that I think would actually a swathe

28:10

a lot of my fears about Tic

28:12

Toc as a sort of covert your

28:15

propaganda app for the Chinese government's I

28:17

was the same time allowing it to

28:19

continue to exist. If that doesn't happen,

28:21

I think I'm with you. I think

28:23

I. I am more and more persuaded

28:25

that are banning Tic Toc would be

28:27

a good idea in part because of

28:29

the reaction. That we've seen from By

28:31

Dance and Tic Toc just over the

28:33

past few weeks. As this bill has

28:35

made it's way through Congress, we have

28:38

not seen them eat of engaging in

28:40

good faith. We've seen them sort of

28:42

exaggerating, calling this a total ban, and

28:44

we also seen pushback from by deaths

28:46

and and presumably from the Chinese government

28:48

to which indicates to me that they

28:51

do view Tic Toc as a strategic

28:53

asset in the United States and that

28:55

they do not want to give that

28:57

up. So for all those reasons. I

29:00

am. I was skeptical of a tick tock

29:02

ban and now I think I could get

29:04

paid who well sounds like in the meantime

29:06

then if they're need sick talks the love

29:09

my want to go and save with him.

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31:01

Y times.com/audio Lab. So.

31:03

Today we have to talk about the biggest

31:05

story on the internet this week which is

31:07

what is happening. With. Kate Middleton

31:10

are also known as the Princess of

31:12

Wales specific wait what is happening with

31:14

her photograph that she posted as many

31:16

questions that has raised about the seeds

31:19

of our share. Reality is so lessons

31:21

give a view. Not been keeping up

31:23

with this story. Let's just give a

31:25

basic timeline of what's been happening and

31:28

truly everyone has been keeping up with

31:30

the story. So make it snappy. Russo

31:32

gets So basically. About. Two

31:34

months ago, on January seventeenth, Kensington

31:36

Palace released a statement notifying the

31:39

public for the first time that.

31:41

Princess. Catherine had gone into

31:43

the hospital for planned abdominal surgery and

31:45

Princess Catherine is Kate Middleton because one

31:48

set of prints as you get a

31:50

bunch of new name spread. Technically it's

31:52

her Royal highness The Princess of Wales.

31:55

Was admitted to the hospital yesterday for planned

31:57

a doddle surgery. The statement comes as a.

32:00

Cries to people who watch the royal

32:02

Family No one said anything about her

32:04

having a.little surgery she had great abs

32:06

is as add the royal family's pretty

32:09

withholding about personal details of people sort

32:11

of role with it's then. A

32:13

couple days later we get the start

32:15

of the conspiratorial talk and a Spanish

32:17

journalist. The concept Calais ha ha who

32:20

as or have written a lot about

32:22

the Royal family over the years is

32:24

also something of a conspiracy theorist Herself

32:26

I wrote a book the suggested that

32:28

Michael Jackson had been murdered To give

32:30

you a sense of sort of where

32:32

this person falls on the truth versus

32:34

fiction spectrum exactly the not exactly Walter

32:37

Cronkite, but this report is widely talked

32:39

about. I see reports that Kate Middleton

32:41

was actually admitted to the hospital several

32:43

weeks. Before Kensington Palace said she was

32:45

and that she wasn't doing very well

32:47

about a week later, the same Spanish

32:50

certainly suggests that actually the Princess of

32:52

Wales is in a medically induced coma.

32:55

Following. This report a spokesperson for

32:57

Kensington Palace response basically saying this is

32:59

all total nonsense. I'm from what I

33:02

understand, this is quite rare that a

33:04

royal family spokesperson will comment on what

33:06

are essentially internet rumors, so the fact

33:09

that even they deny that said may

33:11

be raised some suspicions read. So then

33:13

following this denial from Kensington Palace, their

33:16

bunch of seemingly small things that are

33:18

kind of like tip people more into

33:20

the land of conspiracy theories and Prince

33:23

William pulled out of a planned memorial

33:25

service. That he was going to go to

33:27

at the last minutes are claiming that it

33:29

was a personal matter. Then a few weeks

33:32

later on March fourth, paparazzi take some greenie

33:34

photos of the Princess of Wales with her

33:36

mom are driving in a car and people

33:38

immediately start to think like this isn't Kate

33:41

Middleton. This is this a body double? This

33:43

is. You know, the people come up with

33:45

all kinds of theories about why this is

33:47

not actually the Princess of Wales? This is

33:49

someone pretending to be the Princess of Wales.

33:52

What has happened? The Princess a well as

33:54

successors. This this was essentially stage for the

33:56

benefit of the paparazzi, Exactly. And then ah,

33:58

just a couple days. Go! We got

34:00

the biggest turn of events in a

34:03

saga so far, which was that on

34:05

Sunday I was his Mother's Day in

34:07

the Uk which side note, I didn't

34:09

know they had a different Mothers Day

34:11

than we have here, well as his.

34:13

They have a different where they called

34:15

the Mumps Surf so on Mother's Day

34:18

Kensington Palace for least a photo of

34:20

Princess Catherine with her kids and it

34:22

was signed with a C which is

34:24

when Princess Catherine does with all of

34:26

her social media posts and this photo

34:28

was presumably intended to. Sort of dispel

34:30

these rumors and say, look here, she is

34:33

looking happy with all of her kids surrounding

34:35

us. Instead, this totally backfires because people start

34:37

pointing out that this photo has been pretty

34:40

obviously manipulated. I mean, the forensic analysis that

34:42

was immediately apply to this, for I truly

34:44

do not remember anything like it. And on

34:46

one hand, yes, it's obvious that people are

34:49

going to be pouring over this photo for

34:51

any signs of strange things. But man, people

34:53

do this. And a hearse. Yeah, dig up

34:55

the full read or treatment of his photo.

34:58

Did people notice that big? The kids. Hands

35:00

were sort of oddly position there were

35:02

some like you clearly the editing done

35:05

on one of the daughters sleeves am

35:07

Princess Khadr with not wearing any of

35:09

her wedding rings and there was one

35:12

window pane that looked kind of blurred

35:14

over the zipper that was Missile Line.

35:16

And following this uproar about this photo,

35:18

the Major A Photo wires that distribute

35:21

photos to the news media from Kensington

35:23

Palace issued what is known as a

35:25

kill order kill that they killed it.

35:28

This is like the equivalent of. Lose

35:30

the all in the old newspaper days when

35:32

you realize you're about to make a mistake

35:34

and so you run down to the printing

35:37

presses that you would say stop The Presses

35:39

rights. This does does not happen all that

35:41

often. Cabinet We see when a kill order?

35:43

Yes. So basically a kill order something that

35:45

you know daddy or the A P or

35:47

another news agency can like issue. And to

35:50

people who might use their photos sing, Do

35:52

Not Use This Photo Anymore Or in this

35:54

case these agency said this. It appears that

35:56

the photo has been manipulated and so we

35:58

do not think you should use it anymore

36:01

and this rarely happens. Me that it was.

36:03

a reporter for The Verge looked into this

36:05

and and reported that I have somewhat of

36:07

a wire service. Told her they could count

36:09

on one hand the number of kill orders

36:12

are the issue in an entire year. so

36:14

this is a big deal it it. So

36:16

shortly after this kill order came out, Kensington

36:18

Palace release another statements this one supposedly from

36:20

K as well also signed with a C

36:23

Quotes: Like many amateur photographers, I do occasionally

36:25

experiment with editing. I wanted to express my

36:27

apologies for any confusion. The family photograph we

36:29

shared yesterday. Cause I hope everyone

36:31

celebrating had a very happy

36:33

Mother's Day! See. So

36:36

they also didn't release any other photos or

36:38

give the unedited version of the manipulated photo.

36:40

And so this statement. It did not do

36:42

a good job of of placating either. The

36:44

critics who believe that something more is going

36:46

on Now this is a real raised more

36:48

questions than answers moment because you know, if

36:50

she wanted to see, might have said at

36:52

least one or two things about how was

36:54

he edited the photo right or like if

36:56

there was any particular thing he says oh

36:58

you know, like might my daughter sweater didn't

37:00

look quite right and so I want to

37:02

see if I could fix that. You know,

37:04

obviously what. Make that mistake. A guess that was

37:06

not what happened. You read this was not a simple

37:08

case of sort of and taking out some red eye

37:10

or may be using the blur tool to cover up

37:13

like as it on your face or something like that

37:15

right? are trying to smooth out your skin or make

37:17

you look younger like you know you would. I want

37:19

to your photos. So

37:22

we should say tits are close the loop

37:24

on the saga of V the Princess of

37:26

Wales. Their lot of theories going around out

37:29

there on social media about what has happened

37:31

to the Princess of Wales and what's the

37:33

most irresponsible was. On

37:36

the one that I've seen guys rather

37:38

I think of the funniest with someone

37:40

actually compared us the the timeline of

37:42

her disappearance with the production schedule for

37:44

the Mast Singer of. Feel

37:47

the same Have been hiding because these are

37:49

the math singer I don't think that is

37:52

our probably daughter. was that the real answer

37:54

here? Who are so rich by these? None

37:56

of our business Where the Princess of Wales

37:58

is either. The payer funded position

38:01

over there, right? So like arguably there is

38:03

some public interest in you know, how is

38:05

the Princess Wells doing? Surprised that agencies none

38:07

of our business as the host of it

38:09

as up with a nightmare organisms Exactly. Yes,

38:11

exactly. And we fought a war to not

38:13

have to care about the whereabouts of the

38:15

royal family. I would say we fought a

38:17

war. It's only care about them when it

38:19

was interesting. Okay, you don't I mean so

38:21

if you may be wondering, why are we

38:23

talking about this isn't just like this and

38:25

spurious gossip about the royal family. Is this

38:27

really attack Stories and Casey what his answer

38:29

to that. Well, let your rights

38:31

have been dead. Generally speaking, that when

38:33

is the last time that a member

38:36

of the royal family was seen in

38:38

public is not typically something that we're

38:40

interested in. But there were so many

38:43

weird things about this photo that it

38:45

actually did wind up squarely in our

38:47

zone. Because what? What do we often

38:49

talk about here? We talk about media

38:52

being manipulated, We talk about our shared

38:54

sense of reality. How do we separates

38:56

truth from big sense? And all of

38:58

a sudden it's. A very frivolous worried

39:01

had raised. why would say rak to some

39:03

pretty important questions yet? So the first thing

39:05

that people surmise from this was that this

39:07

may have been a I manipulation in some

39:09

way because it is twenty twenty four and

39:12

a lot of a I image manipulation is

39:14

going on. Admittedly very funny to think that

39:16

the palace was like as we need to

39:18

put out of a photo of K and

39:20

sort of went into Chat Cbt and was

39:22

like Zola the Princess of Wales and her

39:25

family smiling for a mother's day photo right?

39:27

So he does not actually appear that this

39:29

was due to. A I have you to

39:31

obviously I ever generators and have you to

39:33

well documented problem. Sometimes they put extra fingers

39:36

on your hand sometimes they make your eyes

39:38

zone for your hands on your fingers is

39:40

it affects do But it seems pretty clear

39:42

this point that this was not a eyes

39:44

are in fact people of it's have been

39:47

examining be met a data of this image

39:49

and have concluded that it was shot and

39:51

a ten and five the mark for camera

39:53

and that it was edited on a photo

39:56

shop for Mac. So does this is like

39:58

not a gendered of a eyes. Though

40:00

it appears but this actually is a really

40:02

important piece of met a day that kevin

40:04

it because somebody that has happened over the

40:07

past several years is that the question what

40:09

is a photograph has gotten very complicated. Our

40:11

friends over at the Verge can talk about

40:13

this a lot because when you take a

40:16

photo with your smartphone it's taking many many

40:18

images at once and then it is creating

40:20

a composite out of them and so any

40:23

him as that you're seeing your your phone's

40:25

camera all these days they're good chances that

40:27

it's not actually what the camera sauce it

40:29

is. A bit of a generative A

40:32

I experience that you're getting now with

40:34

every single photos. So if the melody

40:36

the had come back about that Kate

40:38

Middleton photo, Thanks! This was sort of

40:40

I phone fifteenth. In some ways this

40:42

would be a more complicated question. Yes

40:44

is not just that people can now

40:46

easily edit photos on their smartphones. is

40:49

that the actual cameras that are built

40:51

into the smartphones often these days have

40:53

a I manipulation built into them. So

40:55

one example is the new Google Pixel

40:57

phone has a feature called Best Take

40:59

Were. Basically, it's takes a bunch of photos

41:02

say you're posing for a photo with your

41:04

family and in one milliseconds when one photo

41:06

was taken, someone is blinking and the next

41:08

milliseconds someone elses blinking or someone not smile.

41:11

it's you can essentially have a take a

41:13

bunch of photos and pick out the best

41:15

version of each person's face and kind of

41:17

smurfs that all into one composite image and

41:20

that all happens without the user sort of

41:22

having to do anything pro active. That's just

41:24

like the basic camera on the phone does

41:27

that. We also know that there's this whole

41:29

field of what. Was called computational photography

41:31

which is basically building algorithms and a

41:33

ice into the way that cameras actually

41:35

capture images. So for example, on the

41:37

I phone if you use portrait mode,

41:39

that portrait mode is using a eyes

41:42

to do things like segmentation. To say

41:44

this is part of the background space

41:46

to be blurry. it's this is part

41:48

of the the subject of the photo

41:50

that's to be crisp and clear and

41:52

that is essentially a form of a

41:54

I would appeal. He said that is

41:56

taking place inside the I phone camera

41:59

itself. Yeah, all. This is just to

42:01

say that there actually is a lot of

42:03

Ai manipulation going on these days in every

42:05

photo that you're taking with your I phone.

42:07

and of course we think of this is

42:09

generally benign because this is not inventing children

42:11

that you don't have. It's not usually putting

42:13

a smile on your face if there was

42:15

that one there. Although if your eyes were

42:17

closed, it will open your eyes for you,

42:19

right? So I just think that's good to

42:21

keep in mind as we move into this

42:23

new era us is that the images that

42:25

we're seeing these are not the polaroids that

42:28

we were taking an elementary school my friends.

42:30

Yes I would say be biggest angle that

42:32

got me interested in the story is what

42:34

it means for kind of beats what people

42:36

are calling the post truth landscape right? We've

42:39

had lots of people writing or their takes

42:41

on this as we talking about how this

42:43

is sort of these be canary in the

42:45

coal mine for this new era of sir

42:48

post truth reality making that we have entered

42:50

into Charlie Wars. L had a good piece

42:52

in the Atlantic this week where he writes

42:55

quotes. For years researchers and journalists have warned

42:57

that the pigs and centered of Ai tools

42:59

me destroy. Any remaining shreds of share realities

43:01

the Royal Portrait debacle illustrates of this era

43:03

isn't forthcoming. Were living in it's so easy.

43:06

Do think this or tens anything different about

43:08

art, social media, landscape or the way that

43:10

we sort of make or determine what's true

43:12

in this new era? I think it's definitely

43:15

a step down that road. But at the

43:17

same time I think that if the this

43:19

of worse comes to pass, will actually look

43:21

back and we will be nostalgic for this

43:24

moment Happens because this was a case where

43:26

we could just look at the photo with

43:28

our own eyes and know with. Total

43:30

certainty that the image had been doctored to

43:32

the point that the palace had to come

43:35

out relatively soon afterwards as that yeah, you're

43:37

caught us. Our expectation I think is that

43:39

within a couple of years the Palace my

43:41

people to come up with a totally convincing

43:43

image of the princess with her children. As

43:46

you know, people who study a maybe we'll

43:48

be able to determine. Okay, yeah, this was

43:50

created with generative air tools, but maybe they'll

43:52

say we actually can't say one way or

43:55

another. That is the truly scary moment. But

43:57

is this a step on the road together?

43:59

Absolutely. The at me for me. The

44:01

one thing that surprised me as just

44:03

how quickly people jumped to skepticism when

44:05

the photo was really. it feels like

44:07

sort of in the span of like

44:09

ten years we've gone from pics or

44:11

it didn't happen to like picks and

44:14

and I'm in a study the pics

44:16

to tell you I didn't happen. It's

44:18

like like that the mere existence of

44:20

photographic evidence is not enough to assuage

44:22

people's concerns about something being real or

44:24

fake or not of in. in fact,

44:26

in this case, putting this photo out

44:28

just fueled the speculation more. absolutely. Now one

44:30

I think funny subplot your capital. I wonder if

44:32

you have an opinion on this and it is.

44:34

Does it? The Princess of Wales use photo shop

44:37

Like some people saw the statement and said that's

44:39

absolutely ridiculous If you're the princess of well there's

44:41

no way you're gonna sit down and learn how

44:43

to use for us us I've been sort of

44:46

see it from the reversal. you're cooped up in

44:48

that palace all day. Yeah you're ladies and waiting

44:50

taking care of most of the household affairs. Maybe

44:52

you should of Beauty Few pictures of the kids

44:54

that is our I don't like the way that

44:57

my daughter's in a sweater looks. I miss the

44:59

if I could. Play that ourselves. In a

45:01

way. I find totally plausible that the Princess

45:03

would learn how to use photoshop for fun.

45:05

Where you think he I think if you'd

45:07

told me that like he noted that the

45:09

decaying ah who's who's who's elderly it's yeah

45:12

King Charles was was using photo shop. I

45:14

would have said i that any disease more

45:16

proof of that the Us but you know

45:18

female then she's. In. Her forties see

45:20

the mom mom looked at it for their

45:22

kids. you know, have I edited a photo

45:24

of my kid ever to like, you know,

45:26

remove some mass some pride from his certain

45:29

yeah, you know, I'm guilty or it. So

45:31

this is sort of a coin flip. We

45:33

think whether Cade males who knows how to

45:35

use photoshop yeah, I got for Yet I

45:37

can also see reasons for skepticism. Another argument

45:40

that I thought was interesting that wanted to

45:42

talk to about today is something that Ryan

45:44

Roderick wrote about in his newsletter Garbage Day.

45:46

I'm in a post that was titled misinformation

45:48

is fun precisely. Saying look we now you

45:50

know this happens all the time something comes

45:52

out, people get upset or nervous about the

45:54

accused of being fake. We get all these

45:56

expert researchers and reporters sort of coming out

45:58

of fact sec. if actually this is fake

46:01

who doesn't troops but it's basic thing is

46:03

like look. People. Are missing that.

46:05

This stuff is fun. It's fun to

46:07

speculate. It's fun to spread rumors. It's

46:09

fun to try to connect the dots

46:11

on some complicated conspiracy theories. Yeah, this

46:13

is a piece that people miss when

46:15

they write about conspiracy theories as both

46:17

you and I have done over the

46:19

years. Yeah, and it's important because all

46:22

these platforms that seek out often for

46:24

good reasons. I think To wants to

46:26

eliminate misinformation, are fighting an uphill battle.

46:28

And the uphill battle is their users

46:30

love that stuff. Their users want to

46:32

spend time on their platforms arguing. Incessantly

46:34

about the fate of Kate Middleton. Refresh

46:36

rate and as you think that the

46:39

platforms have a responsibility, I'm in this

46:41

case. This was not a platform story.

46:43

This this photo was disseminated. I guess

46:45

it was the some it was put

46:47

on Instagram and and maybe other social

46:49

media networks but it was really the

46:51

photo wires and the be photo agencies

46:54

stepping in an issue with kill or

46:56

the really turn this the volume up

46:58

on the story considerably. So what do

47:00

you think the says about some who

47:02

is responsible? Fourth Date: Keeping. Here and

47:04

telling whether of and images taken off well the

47:06

the the photo wires here are a great example

47:09

of an institution that does still have some authority

47:11

and else does still have some at trust and

47:13

and and those are becoming fewer and further between

47:15

and as current role So I'm very grateful that

47:17

we have with folks like that who can come

47:19

in and say oh yeah this is obviously doctor

47:21

to get it that the heck out of their

47:23

up there will probably be examples like in our

47:26

lesson for for for example where that that is

47:28

is not the case and there is no authority

47:30

that can come in and sort of say definitively

47:32

one way or another this was. Doctored are

47:34

not Vs and I just think this

47:36

whole discussion about doctored imagery is going

47:38

to get so much harder as more

47:40

and more cameras to come by default

47:42

Wii Tools installed in them selects. That

47:45

will lead in five years from now.

47:47

Is it even going to be possible

47:49

to take a quote unquote Real Photo

47:51

or is every camera and smartphone on

47:53

the market gonna have some kind of

47:55

a I image processing or or improvement

47:57

built into it? I've actually hired and

47:59

oil. Or just a sort of the

48:01

that my like medicine has. It's the only

48:03

way that I can. Just that's enough that

48:05

I'm seeing has a cabin. I like that.

48:07

Yes, took his. I remember a few years

48:09

ago and I was doing a lot of

48:11

reporting on crypto answer block chain projects. One

48:14

of the things that people would pits to

48:16

me periodically in the space is like here's

48:18

a way to use the block chain to

48:20

keep a kind of and entered a bull

48:22

version of the Met a data to tell

48:24

the provenance of an image so that you

48:26

can have a a record on the block

48:28

chain that says this image is real. It

48:30

was not doctor to manipulate it anyway and

48:32

here's how anyone can go prove it. So

48:34

does this. Scandal. And the

48:37

associated drama make you think that something

48:39

like that is actually necessary. Still,

48:41

look, I don't like solutions that are on

48:44

the block. say. I'm not going to say

48:46

that no one could ever come up with

48:48

a way to do that. that would be

48:50

Sas on episode of A Worthwhile. I don't

48:53

think it's possible to do that today. It's

48:55

but there are initiatives or verify the authenticity

48:57

of images on the internet. so there's something

49:00

called the Coalition for Content Provenance and Authenticity.

49:02

This is a consortium of a bunch of

49:04

tech companies including Adobe's Google, Intel, Microsoft and

49:06

they are trying to come up with some

49:09

kind of standard so that we you can

49:11

embed. In your photo the idea that this

49:13

image was taken with a camera and it

49:15

was not just spat out by an ai

49:17

generator. Now even in a world where that

49:19

exist be worse of the share these photos

49:22

on social media they're still than have endless

49:24

debates. but it does empower gatekeepers, redditors some

49:26

image that for whatever reason is like playing

49:28

a role in an election and a metre

49:30

or he are as a you tube or

49:32

maybe even have a tick tock of that

49:34

still exists a big and look at the

49:37

meditate and say oh yeah this was as

49:39

obviously created with generative a ice. Maybe then

49:41

they're. Able to attach a warning label to

49:43

a maybe than they're able to sack? Check

49:45

it and that's really useful, right? I in

49:47

newspapers other journalistic outlets will be able to

49:50

do the same thing, so it's still a

49:52

little bit tricky. Can you actually come up

49:54

with a melody The standard that isn't easily

49:56

removed from the image of the sub to

49:58

be figured out? Blood. If you want

50:01

to know how do I think we will

50:03

solve this problem is still have some like

50:05

us yet. So lot of people are saying

50:07

like this is it has told them or

50:09

informed of that. We are so headed into

50:11

this post truth dystopias. I actually took a

50:13

different lesson from this. This whole thing has

50:15

served made me more optimistic is A because

50:17

it is so that people actually do care

50:19

what's true. People actually do want the stuff

50:21

that they are relying on. it's in their

50:24

social media feeds. They do actually care whether

50:26

or not it's realistic or that it represents

50:28

realities and they are willing to go to

50:30

extravagant. Length including picking apart pixel by pixel

50:32

photographs of the royal family to determine

50:34

whether what they are looking at is

50:36

real or not. I do with a

50:38

really smart point because I do think

50:40

that there is a kind of defeatism

50:42

that creeps into these discussions ago. we're

50:44

gonna have an info apocalypse and will

50:46

never know what's real anymore, but I

50:48

think what you said is exactly right

50:50

that we have a profound need to

50:52

know what is true and false, and

50:54

people are clearly ready to volunteer a

50:56

significant part of every to figuring out

50:58

what is true or false. At the store

51:01

is important enough. Yeah, I think we should

51:03

like have a sort of a a coalition

51:05

of amateur sleuths with instead of like picking

51:07

apart these photos of maybe that's a good

51:09

use of their time For one week, both

51:12

of these people clearly have time on their

51:14

hands. They clearly have expertise and digital sleuthing.

51:16

Let's put them to work doing something more

51:18

socially beneficial. Absolute and Themselves And Cold Cases.

51:20

Yeah, A lesson from Encyclopedia Brown, Nancy Drew,

51:23

The Hardy Boys Everything and read when I

51:25

was nine. Is Rhonda something. Where

51:29

we. Car

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This. Podcast needs that infusion of cold

52:29

hard cash. Kashmir her Assist Assist

52:32

assist us. Yesterday we're talking with

52:34

my colleague. guess we Hill writes

52:36

about technology and privacy for the

52:38

New York Times. Abs you've got

52:40

a a new story as it.

52:42

it's a bear. This is one

52:44

that really caught people's attention. He

52:46

adds up for good reason because

52:48

the more of this story that

52:50

you read, the higher your blood

52:52

pressure goes. it's to it at.

52:54

This is a story about cars

52:56

and all the data. That cars

52:58

collect about their users and drivers and

53:00

how cars have become kind of a

53:02

privacy nightmare. It's a really good sorry

53:04

it's about somebody. New programs that car

53:07

companies have installed in their cars that

53:09

allow them to remotely collect data and

53:11

then that's a seat that data for

53:13

themselves but actually sell that to places

53:15

like insurance companies which can use it

53:17

to say I Will Case is a

53:19

very bad driver. He breaks seventy two

53:22

times yesterday for some reason so we're

53:24

going to raise as premium payments side

53:26

of being a bad driver. Breaking Physicists

53:28

or whatever other choice is it. Cars are

53:30

now basically smartphones on wheels. Stan Smiths is

53:32

on Wheels is what they are and they

53:34

are being used to keep tabs on the

53:36

people who drive them increasingly and with all

53:39

kinds of consequences for consumers. Get, you truly

53:41

may have been route roped into one of

53:43

these games without even knowing it. And so

53:45

if you have the your car connected to

53:47

the internet it anyway and you have it

53:49

yet read catcher story. I promise you this

53:51

is one you're gonna want to listen to.

53:54

Own tests are looking into the sea. Learned

53:56

about this whole survey. hidden world of shady.

53:58

Data Brokers and Company. That

54:00

are selling your data from your car

54:02

to insurance companies. And today we wanted

54:04

and talks cast about what she found

54:06

out in her reporting it was eating

54:08

says gonna happen next if there's any

54:11

hope for us in this new world

54:13

of connected cars or of we're all

54:15

just destined to be surveilled and soup

54:17

done by the things that we drive

54:19

around. So today we're turning hard fork

54:21

kinda hard fork. This isn't worth a.

54:26

Lot of success of a.

54:41

Hassle. I. Think. It's

54:43

wonderful to be on this award winning part. Of

54:47

a lot to do We we

54:49

did win an award did. You

54:51

guys win the Oscar for best technology

54:53

podcast. With. Early discusses his the I

54:55

Hope Podcast Award the Oscar of

54:57

Podcast who many many people are

55:00

saying it in in that case

55:02

that was Us Vs. Oppenheimer. things

55:04

are still a cast. Let's.

55:06

Talk about the story. Where did you

55:08

decide to write about data collection and

55:10

cars? And wise, So.

55:13

I was spending a lot of

55:15

time travel lurking on online car

55:17

forums like. Forums are people who drive

55:19

corvettes and tomorrow's and. Savvy bullets

55:21

were tied rights and I

55:24

started to see people saying

55:26

that their insurance had gone

55:28

up and. When. They ask

55:30

why they are told the pull their

55:32

Lexis Nexis consumer disclosure file like than

55:34

Isis is as big data broker and

55:36

I have a division called Miss Loose

55:38

Ends that have profiles people's risk and

55:40

when they did that they would get

55:42

these. These. Files from Lexisnexis that

55:45

had hundreds of pages, including every

55:47

trip that these people had taken

55:49

in their cars over the previous

55:51

six months, including how many miles

55:53

they drove. When. The trip started

55:55

when it ended how many times they hit

55:57

the brakes. Too hard. accelerated, rapid,

56:00

The and sped. And

56:02

when they looked at how Lexisnexis had

56:04

gotten the data is had the provider

56:06

with general. Motors who you know the

56:08

company that manufactured the car wreck for

56:10

Your story starts with this anecdote about

56:13

this man named Ken Doll which by

56:15

the a great name and key is

56:17

as sixty five year old as Chevy

56:20

Bolt driver and is like you he

56:22

under Chevy Bolt or yeah I guess

56:24

he drives a least Chevy Bolt and

56:26

his car insurance went up by twenty

56:29

one percent in twenty twenty two and

56:31

he would serve like what the heck

56:33

where my premiums going up I've never

56:36

been in. A responsible for a car

56:38

accident as he goes looking and he

56:40

asked for his like you know Lexis

56:42

Nexis report and gets back a two

56:44

hundred and fifty eight page. Document.

56:48

Detailing basically his entire

56:50

driving history. So. Does

56:53

he then make the conclusion that this is

56:55

why his premiums have gone up? because he's

56:57

a bad driver. Well ah, he

56:59

says he's a very safe driver.

57:02

He. Says as his wife has a little bit

57:04

more aggressive than an. Assessor

57:06

blame like wow, explain parties.

57:09

Band. See also Dices car ah

57:11

and I yeah said that the trips

57:13

that sita ah it's during the weekdays

57:15

he said when he doesn't usually use

57:17

the car had a few more hard

57:19

acceleration hard braids and and yeah it

57:22

looked at him like this is why

57:24

his insurance when up and we. Should.

57:26

Say like just because you accelerate

57:28

hard in a car doesn't necessarily

57:30

mean that you did anything wrong

57:32

rights And if you had to

57:35

break really hard that also might

57:37

not have been your fault. And

57:39

so I think one of the

57:41

things that's infuriating cast reading your

57:43

story is that this data which

57:45

lacks a lot of really important

57:48

contacts is being hoover that often

57:50

without the knowledge of the people

57:52

involved and a being used to

57:54

gouge them on price. But. I

57:56

really was just struck by the way

57:58

that these insurance companies. There are so

58:00

eager to use data that might not actually

58:03

be incriminate. Right? And Lexisnexis said they

58:05

don't actually give the trip data to

58:07

insurance companies. They give a score of

58:09

that. Lexisnexis gives the driver driver score

58:12

based on that data and that that's

58:14

what they're sharing. But interestingly, they didn't

58:16

give Ken Doll his score so he

58:19

doesn't actually noticed. Score is. Evidently such

58:21

a corporate thing as a as like oh

58:23

don't worry, work can be v individual data

58:25

We've created a mysterious, impenetrable black box and

58:28

added that to the insurance companies with you

58:30

know, just trust As As as actually really

58:32

what the other company of. Or. Esque. Ah

58:34

did say we does give all the trip

58:37

data and. To Score! So let's have

58:39

been out. How widespread is this with?

58:41

Cars are sending data about their drivers

58:43

to insurance companies which companies are involved

58:46

in. This league is a serve an

58:48

industrywide practice or is this just like

58:50

Gm and Lexisnexis? Is it pretty? Can

58:52

tell. Is your car has connected services

58:55

like a Here have a Gm car

58:57

and you have on Onstar. ah I'm

58:59

or a Subaru and have on Starlink

59:01

your car is sending data about how

59:03

he he said back to Automatic Thatcher's

59:05

I'm at this point the only ones

59:08

that I know of who are providing

59:10

it to insurance companies are T M

59:12

T. Honda. I

59:14

am day. On. Mitsubishi.

59:18

These. Are companies that on Subaru

59:20

been exception? Subaru says they only

59:22

give odometer data ah to Lexis

59:24

but the other companies all have

59:26

in their apps. Now this this

59:28

driver scoring driver feedback with yeah

59:30

it's called smart Driver and if

59:32

you turn it on they give

59:34

you feedback about your driving Like

59:36

drive slower on, be gentle with

59:39

the accelerator, buckle your seat belt,

59:41

drive. Faster at risk because

59:43

it seems the music get

59:45

out of the carpool lane.

59:49

With Apple, Use your phone. Which has given

59:51

your the sea bass on success

59:53

but. For. People that turn this

59:56

on. It and they may not

59:58

have realized it but they were saying

1:00:00

yes a like a lot of these

1:00:02

programs are actually kind of run by

1:00:04

Sariska or by Lexisnexis. they're the ones

1:00:06

give you the feedback not the automaker

1:00:08

and so York have just sharing it

1:00:10

with found this was not well disclose

1:00:12

nikita Gm. it was no evidence all

1:00:14

from from any the language and a

1:00:16

lot of people said that Smart Driver

1:00:18

was turned on for. Their. Cars and they didn't

1:00:20

turn it on the new node. It was and

1:00:23

it does. He a Gm give

1:00:25

bonuses to sales people at dealerships

1:00:27

who get people to turn on

1:00:29

onstar including smart drivers to. They

1:00:31

may have been enrolled by the

1:00:33

salesmen when they both are car

1:00:35

on but for other people, have

1:00:37

you turn this on? Your.

1:00:39

Sharing your data and when you go out

1:00:41

shopping for a car insurance and you're trying

1:00:43

to get quotes. Lot of insurance

1:00:45

companies will say can we have permission to

1:00:47

get third party reports on you like your

1:00:50

your your credit file and when you say

1:00:52

yes to that. That. Releases.

1:00:55

Oh. That date of the go over to

1:00:57

the insurance company and this is just I I

1:00:59

people did not realize this was happening and ends.

1:01:01

At you know that detail about us

1:01:04

sales people being incentivized to enroll people

1:01:06

often without even fully informing people of

1:01:08

what their and roll? You know my

1:01:10

six is really important because at the

1:01:13

end of the day this products exists

1:01:15

because it is essentially free money for

1:01:17

G M and these other a car

1:01:19

manufacturers. right? Like I think in your

1:01:22

store you say they're making millions of

1:01:24

dollars a year by selling this data

1:01:26

and didn't the is. This. Really anything

1:01:28

more than a cash grab. I'm in

1:01:30

the car company say that this is

1:01:32

about safety that they're china help people

1:01:34

be safer drivers with says like you

1:01:37

know driving coach but you know for

1:01:39

some these people that smoke driver turned

1:01:41

on they didn't even know with on

1:01:43

they're not getting the feedback and you

1:01:45

know as you say ah General Motors

1:01:47

on my understanding is they make and

1:01:49

the low millions of dollars per year

1:01:51

with this program on which they described

1:01:54

the Senator Edward Markey he asked them

1:01:56

are you selling data and they said.

1:01:58

You know, the day that we sell. That we

1:02:00

commercially benefit from his de minimis.

1:02:03

To. Art Twenty Twenty Two Revenue. So

1:02:05

for them it's it's nothing you know

1:02:07

this is. This is. Where it's a

1:02:09

drop in the bucket it is wrong on about

1:02:12

moving their overall but finances and it's not de

1:02:14

minimis for the people who have to pay twenty

1:02:16

percent more on their car insurance all of a

1:02:18

sudden for reasons that they don't even understand mine.

1:02:20

So. This is I think or say

1:02:22

as you know the surveillance capital as

1:02:24

a model is that Google the say

1:02:26

spark that you get something for free

1:02:28

or paying with your data. It's really

1:02:31

spreading to all of these other companies

1:02:33

and the automakers are like more. We're

1:02:35

getting all this data we can monetize

1:02:37

this to ah right now they're not

1:02:39

actually making that much money like low

1:02:41

millions is small and some of the

1:02:43

automakers told me we don't get paid

1:02:46

for sharing the data. We only get

1:02:48

paid when an insurance company buys it.

1:02:50

So. They don't even have a

1:02:53

good business deal unless like this is easy money for

1:02:55

all the day. I like. A. Very something

1:02:57

really damning about saying to the center as

1:02:59

I hate we would even make all that

1:03:01

much money off this. okay what why you

1:03:03

violating the privacy of your entire user base

1:03:06

if you can't even get a good place

1:03:08

for it? Yes one cause I have for

1:03:10

you cast is like so many other uses

1:03:12

our car companies finding for this data are

1:03:14

they just selling it to insurance companies to

1:03:17

raise people's premiums or semi I can imagine

1:03:19

a situation where he go up be a

1:03:21

company might like to know you know which

1:03:23

drivers are driving past their store every day

1:03:25

so they can show. Them you'd have

1:03:27

targeted ads on social media or

1:03:29

how how many buyers are there

1:03:31

for this kind of car? Data.

1:03:34

I. Mean look there's a lot of

1:03:36

information at spoiling our your car and

1:03:38

a lot of potential buyers at this

1:03:40

point. but I mainly have been focusing

1:03:43

on is this insurance thing and when

1:03:45

it comes to the and servants data.

1:03:47

The one thing the other automakers pointed

1:03:49

out is that they're not providing location

1:03:51

details said just when he started the

1:03:54

trap when it ended how far he

1:03:56

drove and it doesn't actually include location

1:03:58

data but that's not. They the companies don't.

1:04:00

Have it there. Just in this case. Not selling

1:04:03

that. While. So you know this

1:04:05

is in some ways like not a new

1:04:07

phenomenon. Insurance premiums are either. Did they vary

1:04:09

based on things like where you live and

1:04:11

how new your car is and like are

1:04:14

you are? You write a young man who

1:04:16

is statistically more likely than someone who's older

1:04:18

to be in an accident? Those kinds of

1:04:20

things are used to change the prices of

1:04:23

insurance premiums all the time. And I guess

1:04:25

from the insurance companies perspective, this is just

1:04:27

one more piece of data that they can

1:04:29

use to make decisions about how much of

1:04:32

a risk someone is out on. The Road

1:04:34

Did you hear any sir? Principal defenses of

1:04:36

this? Was you reporting the story from the

1:04:38

insurance companies are the companies that sell data

1:04:41

to them. Let the automakers really focus

1:04:43

on is that they sat these programs

1:04:45

to help people get discount. I'd sell

1:04:47

like the some of the program like

1:04:49

Honda's for example as the Toronto ever

1:04:51

seen bad and then you have a

1:04:53

good score as the actual Apple can

1:04:55

offer to connect you with some company

1:04:57

his gonna give you a twenty percent

1:04:59

discount. So they're really focusing on were

1:05:01

trying to help our customers and get

1:05:03

them discount. What they're not talking about

1:05:05

is when that data is flowing out

1:05:07

and it's hurting their customers like a

1:05:09

talk the one today like driver silly.

1:05:12

Who lives in Palm Beach, Florida

1:05:14

and in December it was time

1:05:16

for him to get new insurance

1:05:18

and he got rejected by seven

1:05:21

different companies and he was like

1:05:23

why is going on. Like we just

1:05:25

wouldn't sell him his shirts for any night. Hover him

1:05:27

and his auto insurance is about to expire

1:05:30

and he said like what is going on

1:05:32

He orders as Lexisnexis reports and he has

1:05:34

six months or driving data in there and

1:05:36

he says. He says leg work.

1:05:38

I don't consider myself. An aggressive

1:05:40

driver. I'm safe Bet he's like

1:05:43

yeah I like to have fun in my

1:05:45

car and I break the law as his

1:05:47

hand I excel or a like my passengers

1:05:49

head isn't hitting the dashboard or something like

1:05:51

that. But yeah, I know

1:05:53

whether you're doing, don't desire to

1:05:56

live with what I've never. Been

1:05:58

an accident and I couldn't. Get

1:06:00

insurance here to go to a private broker

1:06:02

and ended up paying double what he was

1:06:04

paying before for insurance. so you know it,

1:06:07

it really in that case, Hurt him

1:06:09

a lot. So you know, eight years

1:06:11

where I I guess like him with

1:06:13

you know, maybe same some sort of

1:06:15

sympathy for the idea of doing this

1:06:17

which is like I do want worst

1:06:19

drivers dab higher insurance premiums right? Like

1:06:21

I see. That is how we want

1:06:23

the insurance market to work ethic. If

1:06:25

you're a good driver your insurance to

1:06:27

be lower end of the best way

1:06:29

or know who is a good driver

1:06:31

and who's a bad driver is to

1:06:33

monitor them obsessively blade as what you

1:06:35

have reveals your cash is that once

1:06:38

we implemented. This sort of surveillance systems.

1:06:40

It seem to do what all surveillance

1:06:42

systems do which is needlessly penalize innocent

1:06:44

people's rights. So like we have all

1:06:47

of the downsides of a surveillance system

1:06:49

with really none of the i don't.

1:06:51

Like you want safer roads D C I

1:06:53

get annoyed as aggressive drivers and I thought

1:06:55

of this one law professor from year at

1:06:58

University of Chicago and he said you know,

1:07:00

usage based insurance has what you call that

1:07:02

When you tell an insurance company they can,

1:07:04

they can watch you, they can see you're

1:07:06

driving. He said it works. He. Said

1:07:09

the impact on Cc is enormous and

1:07:11

that people drive better when they know

1:07:13

that they're being monitored and that they're

1:07:15

gonna pay more you know as a

1:07:17

drive ah aggressively or or and safely.

1:07:19

But that's not what was happening here.

1:07:21

people were being secretly mind or it's

1:07:23

and then they're paying more and they

1:07:25

don't know why it's and that is

1:07:27

not gonna make the road. That any safer?

1:07:29

Yeah that that does feel like the stick

1:07:31

is. Part of this to me is like the

1:07:33

disclosure be like if you know in not

1:07:35

I've I've had experiences of in the past couple

1:07:38

years ago. a while I'll go rent a car,

1:07:40

pharma like a work trip or something and. Part.

1:07:43

Of what. I. Know when I'm renting the

1:07:45

car is that the rental car company is tracking

1:07:47

that car and I notice because they tell you

1:07:49

when you sign up and and it's you very

1:07:51

clearly disclose like we will track this car it

1:07:54

You know if it gets stolen or something we

1:07:56

can help you track about that kind of things.

1:07:58

I I know that I'd be. Auditor: While

1:08:00

I'm driving a rental car and so I'd

1:08:02

eat, I do tend to drive a little

1:08:05

bit more conservatively in a rental car. I

1:08:07

can imagine that expanding to lots of other

1:08:09

cars, but. The. People have to

1:08:11

know that they're being monitored in order

1:08:14

to be able to drive safer as

1:08:16

a result of being monitored. Absolutely so

1:08:18

can talk about your reporting a little

1:08:20

bit on this. A huge You started

1:08:22

looking through these car forums. You started

1:08:25

seeing evidence that people were having their

1:08:27

premiums raised as a result of this

1:08:29

surveillance by their cars. When you approach

1:08:31

the the car companies, the data brokers,

1:08:34

the insurance companies. did they try to

1:08:36

deny what was going on where they

1:08:38

pretty open about it Hundred they re.

1:08:41

You know, I thought that I was

1:08:43

expecting denials I was expecting ah that

1:08:45

yeah they would say this this less

1:08:48

than half think that just seems sense

1:08:50

socking to me that they would be

1:08:52

doing this but they he ended up

1:08:55

kind of confirming it that there was

1:08:57

some of these of language about how

1:08:59

it works on one of the big

1:09:02

things as asking different companies as where

1:09:04

do you disclose this is happening and

1:09:06

with Gm the spokeswoman said it's in

1:09:09

the on star privacy policy in the

1:09:11

sec. St. Paul. Which everyone before

1:09:13

they protest it must have

1:09:16

been allowed. Sharing data

1:09:18

with third parties and so I go and

1:09:20

read that sets in and. The. Sex

1:09:22

and Doesn't say anything about Lexis, Nexis or

1:09:24

of Arrest or Telematics which is what you

1:09:26

call this driving Data It says like you

1:09:29

know if they have a business deal with

1:09:31

somebody like Sirius Xm which is the company

1:09:33

they named their Sirius Xm is gonna get

1:09:35

some data from your car and I just

1:09:37

was very soft. The town. Is nothing

1:09:39

more explicit anywhere And. I. Actually, I

1:09:41

told you I have a Chevy Bolt. So.

1:09:44

I went to the my Chevrolet out

1:09:46

by connected my car on to this

1:09:48

third. this the my several apps and

1:09:51

went through. This is the smart driver

1:09:53

and Roman and all it says his

1:09:55

leg get digital bad as they can

1:09:57

get like a to a serious and.

1:10:00

We met hero. Ah. One

1:10:04

of my favorite bands from the last year

1:10:06

and putting that on my linkedin profile. Certified

1:10:08

Bratty. Rising Tips and their cyst?

1:10:10

Absolutely nothing. Ah that would make

1:10:12

you realize that saves you turn

1:10:14

smart driver on. That. General

1:10:17

Motors is gonna start sharing everything about

1:10:19

how I drive my ball. With

1:10:21

Lexis, Nexis, and Forest and whoever else

1:10:23

I didn't find out. About in

1:10:25

my reporting it's initial you like the

1:10:27

splash screen of a panoply cod at

1:10:29

it should say is this the future

1:10:31

you want Just tap jazz to continue

1:10:33

with. Why did I really. Do think

1:10:36

like every company wants this model now

1:10:38

they're just thinking about how can I

1:10:40

get an extra you know revenue stream

1:10:42

through monetizing the data of my customers

1:10:44

on. this is not just Automakers, this.

1:10:46

Is just anything were buying now

1:10:48

that internet connected. And. He

1:10:50

would. It made me think i when

1:10:53

I read your story with tvs because

1:10:55

a very similar you know scenario has

1:10:57

been happening with smart tvs which collect

1:10:59

all kinds of data about what people

1:11:01

watch on them and then they can

1:11:03

sell that beta to advertisers so it

1:11:05

is actually in some cases I I

1:11:07

i bought a new Tv a few

1:11:09

years ago and I went through this

1:11:11

process of a realizing that is actually

1:11:13

cheaper to buy a smart tv that

1:11:15

are non smart tv in many cases

1:11:18

because part of how the the smart

1:11:20

tv makers. Are making money is not

1:11:22

through selling you, the hardware is actually

1:11:24

through capturing the data and selling the

1:11:26

data. So it is sort of. We

1:11:28

do sort of have this this phenomenon

1:11:31

where as hardware any hardware whether it's

1:11:33

a car or a Tv or of

1:11:35

refrigerator or a smart toaster something as

1:11:37

it becomes more connected and more like

1:11:39

you to add a device it's own

1:11:42

rights. The. Data actually in some cases becomes

1:11:44

more valuable than the actual piece of hardware for

1:11:46

Oracle so we to see us all the time

1:11:48

that privacy as as increasingly a luxury good for

1:11:50

rich people to pay for. Ah yeah, I

1:11:52

mean I guess so, but even rich

1:11:54

people I'm in there by expensive cars

1:11:56

in there are still sending a setback

1:11:58

of bell gas. One objection I saw

1:12:00

from drivers like people it and are motors They said

1:12:03

the hey, I paid a ton of money for this

1:12:05

car. If you're gonna sell my date I want to

1:12:07

cut of the hey. Yeah, here's how I

1:12:09

would solve this problem. I think that your

1:12:11

each manufacturer should be allowed to make one card.

1:12:13

The just sort of sense all your data. They're

1:12:15

everywhere in. There's nothing you can do about

1:12:17

you can disrupt shoots so if you buy a

1:12:19

Gm snitch you know that that's what's gonna

1:12:21

happen. Agent costs one

1:12:24

hundred dollars on two hundred dollar car. On the

1:12:26

mark is it was one hundred dollars. A mental

1:12:28

Gm Smith says the has a direct flight to

1:12:30

the police and up or I like sort of

1:12:33

cross over the center divider ads are. Other than

1:12:35

that. Knock. It off the a cast.

1:12:37

What is the response? Been to your story

1:12:39

is a our our our lawmakers outrage or

1:12:41

or driver I'd outrage or drivers sending you

1:12:43

stories about being spied on what is one

1:12:45

of the reactor man. As I'm deathly hearing

1:12:48

from lots of other drivers who are discovering that

1:12:50

they had to some these features turned on they

1:12:52

didn't know it. ah they're turning it off I

1:12:54

did a kind of like news you can use

1:12:57

box at the bombed the story and and said

1:12:59

here's how to figure out assists way a car

1:13:01

ceilings on and one of those with their says

1:13:03

this website called the vehicle privacy report that you

1:13:06

can go to and it'll tell you you put

1:13:08

in your been number and it tells you what

1:13:10

your car's capable of collecting. So the person who

1:13:12

runs outside sudden like I've had tens of thousands

1:13:14

of people come in and do it. Off

1:13:17

of your Story on I included.

1:13:19

The. Linked to Lexis Nexis to

1:13:21

go request or consumer disclosure file. and

1:13:24

not just for auto data. That file

1:13:26

is Crazy. It had me associated. I

1:13:28

mean had tons of pages for me.

1:13:31

Had me associated with my sister's email

1:13:33

address from middle school. And

1:13:35

a nice amount of like was I

1:13:37

applies. I think everyone's request that you

1:13:40

know requests the virus file. And.

1:13:42

He has had to sen Edward Markey

1:13:44

for the story and it isn't very

1:13:46

interested in what data is being collected

1:13:49

by. Car Them Automakers are doing. With

1:13:51

that and that, he said when

1:13:53

I described to him what Gm

1:13:55

had dies at this this sounds

1:13:57

like a violation of the law.

1:14:00

That protects us from unfair and deceptive

1:14:02

business practices. So I'm sure this can

1:14:04

be more to come from the story.

1:14:06

Yes, and what can drivers. Do.

1:14:09

If they if they are worried that

1:14:11

their car is snooping on them and

1:14:13

sending data to a data broker or

1:14:15

to their insurance company to raise their

1:14:18

premiums which they actually do to prevent

1:14:20

that are Are there certain car makers

1:14:22

who are not collecting this kind of

1:14:24

data work amid average driver do I.

1:14:26

Mean there there are items that can tell

1:14:29

you from my time the car for hims.

1:14:31

I mean there's some people that don't want

1:14:33

their data going out from their cars the

1:14:35

they. Say. The Hacker: Basically

1:14:37

they like turn off the connected services.

1:14:39

They make sure that data can't lose,

1:14:41

can't leave their car on. I

1:14:44

mean if you sign up for connected

1:14:46

services, you are without connecting your car

1:14:48

back to the auto manufacturers. The Oh

1:14:50

cloud servers are an average, sending data

1:14:52

itself just turning that. I'm. Means

1:14:54

Adidas getting sent back and that's well I

1:14:56

these companies. you know when you buy their

1:14:59

car they're like oh you get this for

1:15:01

thirty days for free. Ah and so most

1:15:03

people turn it on and and even if

1:15:05

you don't pay your still connected after that.

1:15:07

so on. Why we're so even if

1:15:09

is so they get connected and then

1:15:12

you're free. Trial rubs us, but they

1:15:14

still keep collecting the data about you

1:15:16

that they constantly. Understanding and as stuff will

1:15:18

you agreed to and you in a red The.

1:15:22

Sixty thousand. Word privacy policy to well

1:15:24

see. I would at least like my my

1:15:26

car surveillance data to be like helpful to

1:15:28

me and some with a thick I would

1:15:30

like to. I would like to pop up

1:15:33

a little notification and this is the third

1:15:35

time you've driven through Mcdonalds in the past

1:15:37

week. Are you okay and something going on

1:15:39

in your life? You need? Do need therapy

1:15:41

as the last question cast. Do you think

1:15:44

this will create a a bull market for

1:15:46

used cars that don't have any of this

1:15:48

stuff? Is it like are we gonna see

1:15:50

people you know running out to the the.

1:15:52

Car lots to buy like the Nineteen Eighty

1:15:55

Five Ford Bronco that doesn't have any technology

1:15:57

and it's or this is the basic premises

1:15:59

of the Battles Are Delighted Reboot matter where

1:16:02

it is that the only spaceship that

1:16:04

survive was the one that was not connected

1:16:06

to the space internet's and so that when

1:16:08

it's the sort of a Isi lawns attached

1:16:10

only Battlestar Galactica was a while sensor. And

1:16:13

I have seen a lot of people commenting.

1:16:15

In that way the like on so the i still have a

1:16:17

car from two. Thousand and Nine Us if you've

1:16:19

got a Cd player. In your car.

1:16:21

It is privacy protective of her

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sentence. Of

1:16:26

yeah I am going to go back to the Flintstones

1:16:28

car that you have to peddle with your feet. I

1:16:30

don't think that was collecting my stayed on as the

1:16:32

drivers. High Castle

1:16:35

thanks to mister during a face Yeah,

1:16:37

my pleasure. I'm. A worked up. Now

1:16:39

if. You have a car,

1:16:41

does he? No, I don't have an adult. Of

1:16:44

Apartheid. Are

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you in for on? Apparently. Davis

1:17:25

last average of House were edited

1:17:27

by Ten Point Three so it

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was engineered by Elizabeth. Original music

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by Elisa Be Getting Marry Lasagna,

1:17:33

The Damp House or Audience Editor

1:17:36

Novel: A video production meeting cylinder

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so check out what we're doing

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on you to bite us that

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you to.com Artworks Special thanks to

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Polish humans we went to am

1:17:47

still have received a Jeffrey Merida

1:17:49

You can email us at heart

1:17:51

forth and why time like a

1:17:53

specific references. All.