0:00

This episode of the Hardman Podcast is brought

0:02

to you by Joe Garrisi with Backwards Planning

0:04

. Financial by Alpine Gold , by

0:07

Max D Trailers by Salton Strings

0:09

, Butchery , Private Family , Banking , Premier

0:11

Body , Armor and Ecclesia Design . Welcome

0:20

to this episode of the Hardman Podcast

0:22

. I'm your host , Derek Kahn , and joined

0:24

today by the one

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, the only bearded bald Norseman

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, Dan Burkholder .

0:30

Thank you for having me . There is another , dan Burkholder

0:32

, who is actually more famous . He's a

0:34

photographer , really yeah , but

0:36

he spells his name B-U-R-K . Is

0:38

he bald ? I don't know . I

0:41

haven't seen a picture .

0:42

It's not self-portrait , so You're

0:46

the only Dan Burkholder that I care about . Dan Dan , we're going to jump into

0:48

this episode in just a minute . We're going to be talking about CS

0:50

Lewis and Narnia and

0:53

some of his views , which

0:55

are very popular today , on male headship

0:57

. Oh , they're popular . Oh , did

0:59

I say popular ? I meant people hate them

1:01

, in fact . We'll

1:03

get into it in just a minute , but I had posted

1:05

something about CS Lewis

1:07

and headship from . This

1:10

is from the silver chair , so quotes from the book

1:12

. We'll get into them . But it was interesting because several

1:14

people in the comments said I

1:21

have been a lifelong .

1:22

CS Lewis fan and you have forever ruined that for me

1:24

.

1:24

Well , it sounds like you're doing favors , mean , if , yeah

1:26

, if you're a raging feminist , get out . That's all

1:29

I gotta say .

1:29

You're not allowed to be a cs lewis fan no , I

1:31

mean , you didn't even have to interpret it , no

1:33

, just read it it was basically just reading

1:35

it , uh .

1:36

Before we get into that , though , dan , you had a rousing

1:39

and I'm talking rousing uh

1:42

appearance on . It's

1:44

not yet up , but it's going to be on Instagram reels

1:46

. It's going to be on Twitter on

1:48

X a rousing and

1:50

I mean rousing appeal for

1:53

people to come to the conference . Is there any

1:55

way I know I'm putting you on the spot Is

1:57

there any way I can get you to recreate

2:00

it ?

2:00

Recreate it , yeah . So

2:02

, uh , new Christian impresses having

2:05

a conference June 6th through the 8th . Come

2:08

or don't come , I don't

2:10

care , but if

2:13

you are there I'll see you then , or

2:15

I won't , but you should come

2:17

. But you should come . Yeah , that's

2:19

great .

2:20

That's pretty much it . I mean spot on . For

2:22

people who don't know , dan is our resident Ron

2:25

Swanson .

2:27

A higher compliment has never been given

2:29

to me .

2:30

Actually , I think I have given you a higher compliment because

2:32

I compared you to Puddleglum .

2:33

And Samwise , gamgee and Samwise

2:35

. I mean , yeah

2:38

, I appreciate it .

2:39

High country . Nobody ever compares me to characters in

2:42

well , actually , that's not true . Cs

2:44

Lewis maybe Brian has been calling me Reepicheep

2:47

lately . I mean , I accept

2:49

the honor . Yes , I accept the honor . So

2:52

we definitely encourage people to sign up for

2:54

the conference . Dan , this year we have had a

2:57

massive turnout . Last year we had , I don't know , 150

2:59

people who came to our conference . This

3:02

year we are . I think we looked

3:04

at numbers today we're well over 600 , I think it's six

3:06

, 50 . One of the things I want to encourage

3:08

people to attend is the concert

3:11

which

3:13

I keep calling a conference , but a concert with Brian

3:15

survey . We are going to attempt

3:18

something pretty bold and audacious here . We

3:20

are going to live record this sucker . We've got a professional

3:22

sound guy coming and

3:25

we hope to have a

3:27

musical production of sorts . Be

3:30

that an album of Brian's that's produced

3:32

live . We'll also , lord willing , have

3:35

included in that some Psalm singing , him singing

3:37

. So be there . Really

3:39

, I think what I'm saying is , if you come and you're part of

3:41

this live album , then

3:43

you're basically famous , yes , so you want basically

3:45

famous , yes . So you

3:47

want to be on it , so get a ticket

3:50

for Brian's concert . But

3:52

the other thing , dan , we are having , which I think is really cool

3:54

, is a VIP business mixer . We've

3:57

got a number of people who are going to be there , including sponsors

3:59

for this show . We're going to have the guys from max

4:01

d who are going to be there , we

4:03

are going to have mr joe garrisy

4:06

. There's going to be a lot of people . Um

4:08

and so for people thinking like , should I go to the

4:10

business mixer , what kind of person should

4:13

sign up for our vip business

4:15

mixer ?

4:17

and uh , yeah , give me the uh , well , yeah

4:19

, really the pitch on it really , if you're

4:21

a guy that values

4:24

networking opportunities , especially

4:27

for economic benefit

4:29

and for relationships

4:32

with like-minded men that lead

4:34

businesses and have a lot of responsibilities

4:37

on their shoulders I mean this is a great

4:39

opportunity . There's really very few

4:42

opportunities like this that are going to

4:44

exist in North

4:46

America to where you have the opportunity

4:48

to cultivate relationships

4:50

with men that have similar roles

4:53

, responsibilities and are

4:55

like-minded in building the new Christendom

4:57

, specifically in their companies and

4:59

in their corners of the world . So

5:02

that's where I think the greatest

5:04

benefit is , you know . So if you're

5:06

if you're a business owner or you're a guy that that

5:08

values networking , that's

5:11

. That's where I'd go .

5:12

Yeah , so , and I think this year , much bigger

5:14

number of attendance , so there's going to be even better

5:16

opportunity . Last year we had a lot

5:18

of businesses and people connect who

5:21

are doing . I mean , some of the business deals that came out

5:23

of this were like in the tens to hundreds

5:25

of millions of dollars for a

5:27

lot of people . So I think those connection points

5:29

are really good . And then also just attending

5:31

the conference . Of course , the VIP mixer is a separate

5:34

ticket , but attending the conference we

5:36

are going to have so many people here . We've got the speakers

5:39

, obviously , so we've got Pastor Brian

5:41

, dr Joe Rigney , dr Stephen Wolf

5:43

, we've got Joel Webben , we've got

5:45

J Chase Davis there's going to be that

5:48

but there's also just

5:50

a host of people from CJ Engel

5:52

to Andrew Isker I mean guys

5:54

that we follow on Twitter . This is a great

5:56

opportunity to connect with

5:58

what you know . It can feel like we're a little bit of

6:00

a small ghetto in the midst of gay

6:04

globalist multiculturalism in a lot

6:06

of America , but I think the value

6:08

of connecting with a lot of those guys and being encouraged

6:10

, yeah , absolutely .

6:12

There's going to be also just the

6:14

the people that are behind the scenes , that are

6:16

doing the work , that are not Twitter

6:18

famous or podcast famous

6:20

, that you all have the opportunity to be

6:22

encouraged by and to network with will

6:24

be will be great . You know , you'd mentioned

6:27

Max D earlier , and I just had a phone call with

6:29

them and they even said they've got

6:31

job openings , and so one of the things that

6:33

they're hoping to do is at their

6:35

booth at the conference is to

6:37

try to recruit good men

6:39

to do the work to help them build

6:41

their very , very successful trailer

6:44

company , and so there's many opportunities

6:46

there other than just going to a really good

6:48

conference and listening to really good speakers

6:50

. I think that's probably the understated

6:53

but most valuable part

6:55

of any conference is the opportunity

6:58

to network with like-minded individuals

7:00

, especially because of the cultural

7:02

moment and the temperature right

7:05

now , and so these guys are like-minded and

7:07

they think the same things and they eat

7:10

at the same trough and are made of the same

7:12

stuff , and so I think that's probably the most

7:14

valuable aspect of the conference .

7:16

Yeah , certainly one of my favorite things at

7:18

the last conference for us recently

7:21

, going to Joel Webbins conference , getting

7:23

to have FaceTime with people yeah

7:26

, I think it's just tremendous . So definitely encourage you guys

7:29

to check that out , if you have not already

7:31

bought a ticket . Of course , if you're a Patreon

7:33

member , there is some special pricing

7:35

, so sign up today . You can get the link in

7:37

Patreon for a special discount . Would

7:40

encourage you guys to meet us June 6th through

7:42

8th in Ogden , utah , utah

7:44

, dan . What I want to do now is jump into this episode

7:46

. I've been thinking for the last five

7:49

minutes of my life about patriarchy if you

7:51

can believe that or not , but

7:53

yeah , a couple things here . So

7:55

I was preparing for a talk at Right Response

7:57

Ministries and I found this

8:00

talk from Russell Moore from

8:02

, I think , 2008 . And he was talking all

8:04

about how the Christian

8:06

world up until about five minutes ago

8:08

was all patriarchal and focused

8:10

on male headship . One of the things that he said was

8:13

that in this paper was

8:15

that CS Lewis defended headship

8:18

in mere Christianity as

8:20

one of the central tenets of the Christian faith and

8:22

Christian worldview . So this kind of got

8:24

me down , this CS Lewis train

8:27

of thought , at least on headship . So

8:30

that's kind of stepping stone number one . Stepping

8:32

stone number two was my friends

8:34

were relentlessly mocking me , and

8:37

my friends were Dan Burkholder was

8:40

relentlessly mocking me because , ok

8:43

, so I had not fully

8:45

read the chronicles of narnia . This

8:48

is like confession time I now

8:50

, just to be fair . I had

8:53

probably listened to great

8:55

portions of it , like

8:57

in the car where the kids are listening or whatever , and I'm

8:59

like zoning out . There were points

9:01

reading through the series where I was like , oh

9:04

yeah , I'm pretty sure I've heard this before but it was

9:06

not good . So this

9:08

last week spring break , I started , just

9:11

started reading through them right and was

9:14

kind of blown away . Life-changing experience

9:16

. Wow , really , it really was

9:18

. Yeah , um , and

9:21

I want to talk to you just generally . First

9:23

of all , we'll get into the headship stuff in just a moment

9:25

and where I think it shows up . But I

9:27

think what really changed my life

9:30

through CS Lewis , it's the way

9:32

he's able to write . He has this saying

9:34

elsewhere where kind

9:36

of the the point of good fiction is

9:38

to get past the watchful dragons of the heart . And

9:41

there's something about when you're sitting in a sermon or

9:44

you're in theology class and you're like , okay

9:46

, I know what's going on here . But CS

9:48

Lewis gets past all those defenses

9:50

into your heart in a way that I

9:53

almost wanted to call it sort of like quote , unquote

9:55

, magical . Like he's

9:57

able to write in such a way where , like Aslan

9:59

will scold one of the children and you

10:02

yourself feel as though you're being scolded

10:04

. And there were times where aslan will correct

10:06

a child , especially like susan or

10:08

edmund or you know , like

10:11

in the later novels , you know caspian or something like

10:13

that . He's correcting lucy about

10:15

her vanity , I think in the dawn treader

10:18

while she looks in the mirror , and

10:20

I remember thinking like I would just start crying because

10:23

I it's like I'm being corrected . Yeah

10:26

, these stories , which are quote unquote child's tales

10:28

, are incredibly powerful

10:31

. So

10:37

that's sort of my like you know 20 second spiel about why , initially

10:39

, why it was impactful . But I know that you're a big fiction guy and you're a big CS

10:42

Lewis guy and a big Narnia guy . What

10:44

is it about these stories that makes them so powerful

10:46

, even , especially , for adults

10:48

?

10:48

Yeah , the adult part , I think , is really

10:51

important . Cs Lewis talks

10:53

about this in his book or his his

10:56

, I don't know what you'd call

10:58

it . It's not really a book , but like a pamphlet

11:00

or whatever . It's called an experiment

11:02

in criticism and he actually talks

11:04

about it's called in an experiment in criticism and he actually talks about an essay . It's an essay

11:07

, yeah , yeah , an essay . He talks

11:09

about being childlike and

11:11

how um we need to recapture

11:13

being childish , and usually

11:16

when the word childish is used

11:18

, it's denigrating

11:20

you think about immaturity , immaturity , yeah , yeah

11:22

, yeah , throwing a his whatever , being

11:24

selfish , like all the number of times my

11:26

kids will ask the question

11:48

but why ? why , you

11:50

know what's this , what's that , how

11:52

does that work ? Uh , boundless

11:55

curiosity , um , and wonder

11:57

at the world that got created . And

11:59

there are many , many things that he talks about

12:01

. I haven't read it in years , so if

12:04

I had been more familiar I could give you more . But the

12:07

idea that CS

12:09

Lewis values childishness

12:12

so highly comes out

12:14

in the books in one way in particular that

12:16

I can't remember where I heard it from . But

12:18

you have a lot of these

12:21

children's stories , and the way

12:23

that they make the children

12:25

the protagonists is by making the adults

12:27

dumb . They have to

12:29

make the adults seem like big

12:32

dopes in order

12:34

for the children to actually be the

12:36

heroes . They're the heroes , you know , and in Narnia

12:39

that's actually not the case . He elevates

12:41

children by making

12:44

them believable and by

12:46

helping you to recapture

12:49

some of the best virtues of

12:51

being a child , and

12:53

so I think that's why it's so powerfully

12:56

relative for adults

12:58

is because there's something smoldering

13:01

in every one of us that is rekindled when

13:03

we read those stories , because you

13:05

can see yourself as these children

13:07

, and they don't have to . He

13:09

, he doesn't amplify some of

13:12

the boneheaded immaturities of

13:14

children to make it to to

13:16

be distracting from the story

13:18

. There are some of those things , but

13:20

they're all very relatable and

13:22

I think that's really helpful . So , in

13:25

in recapturing that childlike

13:27

wonder for the world and for creation , also

13:29

through his world building and the things that

13:31

he emphasizes about Narnia , it

13:34

was like , I think Tolkien , uh

13:36

, somebody said like you can smell the earth of

13:39

middle earth , like you can smell it , it's

13:41

, it's very real . Uh , with

13:43

Narnia , there's something in one's

13:46

heart that just longs to be there

13:48

. I want to be there

13:51

. Middle earth is familiar . I don't mean to to

13:53

like , compare them as like , but but

13:55

I think there is something helpful there . Middle

13:57

earth is relatable and there is wonder there and

13:59

there's magic , but it's very cold and

14:01

it's brutal and it's beautiful , but but

14:03

there's something about Narnia that is like

14:05

. This is like a dreamlike place that I would just

14:07

long to be .

14:09

But it it somehow works , and this is what I mean , it somehow

14:11

works on the affections of your heart . So I found

14:13

myself , like

14:15

you know , I was talking to my wife about it and she was , like

14:17

I seem like really moved

14:19

by this story . This

14:21

might've been after Caspian . She

14:24

said what are you thinking ? And

14:26

I , just like what came

14:28

out in the moment , I was like I want to touch

14:30

Aslan's mane . Yeah

14:32

, like I want to have one of these conversations

14:35

and really , you know

14:37

, you have Aslan

14:39

, who's the picture of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah

14:41

and all that . I get that Like this Christic figure

14:43

, all that . But

14:45

Lewis of the lion of the tribe of judah and all that , I get that like this christic figure , all

14:47

that , um , but lewis is able to , he's able to tell the story in such a way where , like , you

14:49

want to be in narnia , you

14:52

want to in . Um , you

14:55

know michael ward in his book , uh

14:57

, this is planet narnia . Uh

15:00

, he talks about , he's going through like how

15:02

the books of narnia are a reflection of the seven

15:04

planetary systems in the medieval

15:06

mind . But as he's going through

15:09

that , he said what Lewis is trying to do is he's trying

15:11

to transport you into an environment , not

15:13

where you contemplate it , but where

15:16

you enjoy it , interesting , and

15:18

so , as you're going through that , you're thinking

15:20

, yeah , there's something weird happening

15:22

. I don't even understand how it's working on

15:24

my emotions , but it is definitely

15:27

impacting me . And , of course , one of

15:29

the major themes that Michael Ward talks

15:31

about is central

15:34

in all of Lewis's

15:36

medieval mind was Jupiter

15:38

, and Jupiter is the planet of joviality

15:41

and kingship and this is why the Lion , the

15:43

Witch and the Wardrobe , which is really the jovial

15:45

book , is filled with mirth

15:48

and winter turning into spring . This is what good

15:50

kings do . And there's this interesting

15:52

line that Michael Ward says I

15:54

think he's quoting an early , early Lewis essay

15:57

but he said our world is fundamentally

16:00

Saturn and Saturn

16:02

is the planet of sadness and grief and death . He

16:04

said it's the only framework which people know

16:06

and the thing that needs to be reintroduced

16:08

is the jovial King , because

16:10

it's like our world . You know he fought in world war

16:13

one think about the time period he was living

16:15

in and he said nobody knows anything

16:17

of joviality and kingship and gladness

16:19

and and royalty . So

16:22

that definitely comes across , uh , in

16:24

in the books and I think makes it something that you definitely

16:26

want to be a part of . It's

16:28

interesting because one

16:31

of the quotes that I was looking at

16:33

on headship which

16:36

comes from lewis , this one is

16:38

, I have to think about , uh

16:40

, not sure the exact source . I think

16:42

this was an essay that he actually

16:45

wrote about women ministers

16:48

, whether or not they should be permitted to be

16:50

ministers in the Anglican church . Okay , and

16:52

he said absolutely not . But this is one

16:54

of the quotes . He said I do not

16:56

believe God created an egalitarian

16:59

world . I believe the authority

17:01

of parent over child , husband over wife

17:03

, learned over simple , to have

17:05

been as much a part of the original

17:07

plan as the authority of man

17:09

over beast . I believe

17:11

that if we had not fallen , patriarchal

17:14

monarchy would be the sole

17:16

lawful form of government . And

17:19

that's the end of the quote , by the way . But

17:22

you read that and you're like , I

17:24

think , the average person in America . You know we're

17:26

imbibed in like liberal secular democracy

17:30

, quote , unquote this democratic

17:32

system . And yet when you read

17:34

Narnia , lewis is undoubtedly

17:37

a royalist , a monarchist . It's

17:40

the king , and I think he's actually right

17:42

here , by the way , about patriarchal monarchy

17:45

being the ideal . When you

17:47

get to heaven , lewis was , you know , he would say

17:49

something like when you get to heaven

17:51

, there's not going to be a democracy . There's

17:54

going to be kingship , and you're going to rejoice

17:56

in it and that's it .

17:58

Yeah , as you've been talking , I've

18:00

been thinking about the line in the witch in the wardrobe

18:02

and that's been one of the books where

18:04

I'm like , eh , it's fine , it's

18:07

fine , but there are some really interesting

18:09

themes there that I hadn't really considered as

18:13

deeply profound . But

18:16

when you're talking about monarchy and

18:18

Lewis's view of the world

18:21

, you do see the thawing

18:23

of the deep winter without Christmas

18:25

. Which funny , funny .

18:27

There is no .

18:28

King , there's no King . Uh

18:30

. And as soon as the

18:32

Kings you know are are coming

18:34

closer to care paravel , all

18:37

of a sudden the snow starts to melt and the , the

18:39

flowers start to bloom and there is joy

18:42

and the golden age of Narnia comes and the golden

18:44

age of Narnia comes , yeah , exactly . But that picture

18:46

of like , as the King arrives , things

18:48

get better until there's a time of peace

18:51

and uh , and that's a really

18:53

interesting theme . And so you can see in

18:55

Lewis's mind what

18:58

would change the world . Well

19:00

, it seems like a righteous King would

19:02

definitely change the world in his mind , but

19:04

instead what we have is

19:07

winter without Christmas .

19:09

Ie democracy .

19:11

Yes , rest my case . Egalitarian democracy

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the link in the show notes . You

23:24

know , democracy is very egalitarian , like you , look

23:26

at our society and they're like well , every

23:28

man , woman and child and immigrant and

23:31

everyone else should have equal vote . And

23:34

you know , my question would be what does it

23:36

produce ? And I think what Lewis shows

23:38

you . He doesn't give you an argument , but

23:41

the narrative is the argument , and

23:43

what you find yourself longing for is wise Kings

23:45

and good Kings and the glory

23:48

of a King's reign . So that's , I think , really

23:50

helpful . Um , I do want to jump

23:52

into what I wrote on Twitter

23:54

about headship , and this comes from

23:56

, uh , as I said before , the silver

23:58

chair . This is at the end , uh

24:01

, but this is what I wrote . I said CS Lewis

24:03

rightly recognized that women , by

24:05

their nature , were not made for fighting battles or

24:08

for being in roles of headship . That's

24:10

why Susan and Lucy weren't allowed to fight at the

24:12

front lines . You remember , father Christmas

24:14

comes . This was , by the way , tolkien

24:17

was so upset with Lewis that he included

24:19

father Christmas .

24:20

Yeah , Like what is this hodgepodge of

24:22

?

24:22

Well , it's

24:24

funny because before I had kids , brian and I were talking about the line in the witcher

24:27

wardrobe and I said I just don't

24:29

like santa claus and brian's like are you kidding

24:31

me ? Santa's like one of the best parts . Now

24:33

that I have kids and I read it again , I'm

24:35

like tearing up because father

24:38

christmas is there isn't that crazy .

24:39

That's great , it's great . So father

24:42

, christmas comes , he gets them all gifts . Peter

24:44

gets a sword , edmund , I think

24:46

it's a sword too . I think they get sword

24:48

and shield . Of course , peter's sword is

24:50

better .

24:51

Well , and edmund had betrayed them , so he wasn't

24:53

there oh , edmund's not there at that point .

24:55

Yeah , he gets his later , that's right . So

24:57

peter gets his sword . He's going to be

25:00

the high king . Uh , lucy

25:02

gets a little healing potion

25:04

thing and then a dagger , and then

25:07

susan gets the bow . The bow

25:09

. And the girls are like , yeah , but

25:11

we want to fight . And aslan says this quote

25:14

battles are ugly when women fight . And

25:17

cs lewis was right . So

25:19

I go on . At the end of the silver chair , lewis

25:21

has the head and it's interesting

25:23

, he keeps capitalizing head H , e

25:26

, a , d head . He was talking about headmaster of a

25:28

school , but it's the way he does

25:30

it .

25:30

It also ties into that hideous strength which

25:33

we'll get into .

25:34

So he says at the end of this , or I say at the end

25:36

of the silver chair , lewis has the head

25:38

of Eustace and Jill's school portrayed

25:41

by a woman , as of Eustace and Jill's school portrayed by a woman . As the school

25:43

bullies find Aslan and Caspian returning Jill

25:45

and Eustace to their world , they cry out murder

25:47

, fascists , lions . It

25:49

isn't fair . This is

25:51

precisely the sort of thing a woman pretending

25:54

to be a head would be duped by . Rather

25:57

than responding in a just

25:59

fashion . That is righteous justice

26:01

. She is easily played by the empathy

26:03

card of the bullies who say it isn't

26:05

there . Lewis

26:08

writes of this supposed head . Quote

26:10

this is the end of the silver chair . She

26:12

had hysterics and went back to the house and

26:14

began ringing up the police with stories

26:17

about a lion escaped from the circus and

26:19

escaped convicts who broke down walls and carried

26:21

drawn swords . When the police arrived and found

26:23

no lion , no broken wall and no convicts who broke down walls and carried drawn swords

26:25

. When the police arrived and found no lion , no broken wall and no convicts and

26:28

the head behaving like a lunatic , there

26:30

was an inquiry into the whole thing . After

26:33

that , the head's friends saw that the head was

26:35

no use as a head . So

26:37

they got her made into an inspector to interfere

26:39

with other heads , and when they found

26:42

she wasn't much good even at that , they

26:44

got her into parliament where she lived

26:46

happily ever after . End

26:48

quote , and this is my final comment

26:50

on it that I wrote on Twitter An organization

26:53

or society run by women pretending

26:55

to be heads is going to operate

26:57

on the impulse of empathy , not justice

27:00

, and will therefore devolve into

27:02

just this sort of lunacy . So

27:05

, dan , what ? I want to ask you a bunch about this

27:07

, because there's a lot in here . Uh

27:09

, but one of the things that's interesting in michael ward's

27:12

planetary evaluation , uh

27:14

, the silver chair is the

27:17

moon , and the moon , of course , in

27:19

medieval thought , is lunacy , or , you

27:21

know , it's tied to going mad . Now

27:23

, I find this so fascinating that we think words

27:26

like lunatic , luna , l U , n , a

27:28

, you know , for moon , yep , uh

27:30

, so that's interesting . Uh , but even Eugene

27:33

Peterson in the um the

27:35

Psalm I have to look this up the Lord is my keeper

27:37

, you know , he keeps me from the sun by

27:39

day and the moon by night . Uh , the word

27:42

for the moon by night , there is actually a

27:44

reference to being

27:46

moonstruck , which was an ancient

27:49

way of talking about going crazy . So

27:52

the moon is associated with craziness , of

27:54

course Lewis here is talking about . He

27:56

uses the word lunatic .

27:57

It's also a theme in Lonesome Dove , by the way , which you've

27:59

talked about on this episode around the season , which

28:02

is really interesting .

28:03

So , but but it's interesting the the

28:06

connection with this book and

28:08

the moon . Of

28:13

course the children are underground in this world of madness and a maddening enchantment

28:15

from the I don't know venom snake witch in the underworld

28:17

. But that's a good picture of madness

28:19

. You can't see the sun , so you go

28:22

mad , yeah , so

28:24

the darkness , all those themes are here . But I think it's interesting

28:27

the way that Lewis describes

28:30

a woman trying to be a head , and so I

28:32

want to get your take on that . Why do you think

28:34

he wrote this very comical , you

28:38

know , headmistress , but

28:40

he calls her a head , yeah , and then he

28:42

talks about how basically terrible she was

28:44

as a head .

28:45

Well , right In the story , early on

28:47

, if you recall , at the beginning of the book , jill and

28:49

Eustace are at the school and it's horrible

28:52

, yep , and it's , it's , it's an absolutely

28:54

horrible place .

28:55

And Lewis says in the beginning too , he's like it was

28:57

horrible .

28:57

And , by the way , it

29:04

was run by a woman . Yeah , well , yeah , and you know what's really funny about that ?

29:06

is that it was mixed right , it was boys and girls together .

29:07

Lewis did not like that . He didn't like that and , honestly , we're

29:10

not the biggest fans either , but I

29:12

digress . Uh , so you have this

29:14

essentially horrible atmosphere

29:17

that's not being managed well , uh

29:19

and and so , uh , lewis

29:21

mentions empathy , or you mentioned empathy

29:24

, but the first thing that I think

29:26

is really funny is where

29:28

he responds . You know

29:30

, she responds to the lion and and

29:32

to Jill and Eustace coming back and

29:35

Caspian , and it says

29:37

that she had hysterics . Yes

29:39

, she had hysterics , which

29:41

I mean it would make

29:43

sense for an emotional creature to

29:45

be hysterical when there is a

29:48

large lion and

29:50

men with drawn swords on

29:52

your schoolyard . But one

29:54

of the things that you'll notice . How much

29:56

trouble do we want to get in ?

29:57

A lot , ok so the main reason I brought you on

29:59

is because the last time that

30:02

we really had trouble

30:04

it was because of dan , but

30:06

you got blamed for it , and ally bestucky

30:08

, but I got in trouble and

30:10

I'm here for it . Yeah , I

30:12

gotta , can I ? Can I inject one thing ? Yeah , one

30:15

of my favorite parts of the dawn

30:17

treader is that you get a good

30:19

look at reepa cheap , which was

30:21

like , like I felt like my avatar . It

30:23

was just my soul animal , if you

30:25

will . There's this part at the end , when they're sailing

30:27

towards the sun and the waters are clear and they

30:29

see the people underneath and like the the

30:32

basically mermaid people , whatever the King

30:34

comes up with his Trident and he's shaking at them

30:36

like he once wore . So Reepicheep jumps

30:38

in because he thinks he's been challenged to fight

30:40

. Yeah , because he thinks he's been challenged to fight , yeah , and he jumps in

30:42

the water and is like up , let's go to war , let's go

30:45

. And they have to grab him . They're like Reepicheep , my

30:48

guy . One other , okay

30:50

, one other Reepicheep story . I said only one interjection

30:52

. But they're on the beach . Eustace

30:56

has turned into a dragon . This is Dawn Treader . Yeah

30:59

, that's right , they , they're on the beach , he's

31:01

turned into a dragon and they

31:03

, they think they're going to have to fight . They don't know , it's useless , they

31:05

think they're going to have to fight the dragon and Caspians

31:08

. He's like trying to figure out what to do

31:10

Right , and Reepercheap says

31:12

your majesty , if I might , and he's

31:14

immediately he snaps back . He's like no

31:16

Reepercheap you

31:25

may into single combat , I know what you're gonna ask .

31:27

And I was like reeper chief is my guy . Yeah , so back now . Well , no , I think that's a really good

31:29

picture because , uh , lewis really really does this throughout

31:31

the story yeah , with caspian and

31:34

even even being how , having to be

31:36

reminded of his duties as a king

31:38

, why he can't go into the to

31:40

the eastlands is that right , eastlands ? Yeah

31:42

. And with um reepicheep

31:45

and his quest for honor and

31:47

and to be valiant in battle and

31:49

and to be loyal to to

31:52

the king and to his people . Uh , there

31:54

are themes like that for masculinity , and

31:57

then he also has positive femininity , but

31:59

you have I want to interject one thing

32:01

, because I find this so funny .

32:02

The word lunatic which Lewis uses is

32:04

very interesting , well chosen , but

32:08

so is the word , as you mentioned , hysterics . When

32:10

you said the word out loud , I thought of something

32:13

. Have you ever heard the word hysterectomy

32:15

? Yes , so

32:18

the Latin root

32:20

? Well , actually it's from the Greek hysteria

32:22

, which means womb uterus

32:24

, or hysteria , as

32:26

we would think about it , of going mad . I

32:32

think Lewis knew what he was

32:34

doing . Like when you put a woman in the head . See , the

32:36

thing is , when I like we think about our

32:38

wives . When

32:46

they're in their proper , god-ordained role as mother and keeper of the home , they're not hysterical

32:48

, no . But when you try to put her in a , a head role , you

32:50

need to make decisions for the family , you need to be the breadwinner

32:52

for the family , you need to go go to college

32:54

and have a career so that you can lead your family

32:57

. When you put her , who has a womb

32:59

, in that condition , that's

33:03

when you see hysterical women . I

33:05

think it's interesting that Lewis ties that

33:07

together . Really , tell me more

33:09

. Tell me more . That's what I got . That's what I got

33:11

on that one .

33:13

I keep interrupting you no , we

33:15

all experience this , though . We have experienced

33:18

this . If you've worked in any W2

33:20

job anywhere and had a female boss , you

33:22

can relate to this . There's

33:25

a reason that a matriarchal

33:27

type of tyrannical mother-in-law

33:30

, or even mother , has

33:32

the sort of reputation that

33:35

they have . If you , you know

33:37

, the hysterics takes on a different more

33:40

of the snake-like you

33:42

know , more of the snake-like queen

33:45

lady , where , if you misstep

33:47

or say the wrong thing , you will have your head

33:49

bitten off . The

33:51

emotions of a

33:53

woman under pressure in a role

33:56

that she's not meant to operate in , will

33:59

result in emotional

34:02

out outburst and hysterics

34:04

. It's the same thing , though , if

34:07

a man is subjugated in

34:10

a role that he's not meant to be

34:12

in , will cause him

34:14

to be effeminate , and

34:27

so I think back to our monarchy and our democracy conversation . You have men that , essentially

34:29

, are on the same plane , in an egalitarian plane , as women , that are ruled by women

34:32

many times . What is

34:34

that ? What is the fruit that you should expect ? Well , it's

34:36

not kingly men that will

34:38

fight for their king and country

34:40

, but they will be effeminate because

34:42

they're led by hysterics .

34:44

That's insane . So so this is interesting . I

34:47

look this up in a couple places and

34:50

when you look at again the root words

34:52

Hysteria , which means womb

34:54

or uterus , why was it the root

34:56

word for hysteria or craziness

34:58

? It's funny , cause you

35:01

read the entries on this and they're like well cause

35:03

, the Greeks were really dumb , blah , blah , blah , blah . And this

35:05

is what it said . Historically , it

35:07

was believed that hysteria , particularly

35:09

in women , was caused by disturbances

35:12

and radical emotions associated

35:14

with the uterus in a woman's time of month . They're

35:18

writing this like how dumb they were . Okay

35:20

, the greeks believe that

35:22

the greeks belief led to the use of the term hysteria

35:25

to describe a state of uncontrolled

35:28

emotion or behavior which is most

35:30

commonly found in women

35:32

during certain parts of their menstrual cycle

35:34

. Every

35:36

man on earth and every woman on earth who's honest

35:38

with herself knows that that is true , right

35:42

? Yeah , this conversation always

35:44

comes up in leadership with , like us politics

35:46

, because I remember in my lifetime early

35:49

on it's like would you want a woman who menstruates pushing

35:51

the nuclear button ? And

35:53

like everybody was like yeah , that's probably a bad

35:55

idea .

35:56

Now we pretend like that's not reality . Yeah

35:58

, that's not .

35:59

That's not something you can notice , right but there

36:01

is a difference in the sexes . This is why the woman

36:03

will do so poorly in a leadership role is

36:06

because she's got those emotional

36:09

responses . And when you look at

36:11

them from a mothering perspective , it actually makes

36:13

sense , because the uterus

36:15

is for what ?

36:17

Making children , growing children yeah

36:19

.

36:20

That's right . Children

36:23

, yeah , that's right . And when a woman has to fight , as Lewis said , things get ugly , because if she's

36:25

fighting , it means she's defending herself or , more likely , her children . She's

36:28

going to go full mama bear .

36:30

Yes .

36:30

And she has to .

36:31

Yes , yeah , and absolutely . And that's not to

36:33

denigrate women , it's . It's

36:36

that the glory of women

36:38

are not to be bad

36:40

men . Right , they're not meant

36:42

to be men like . They're

36:44

just smaller , framed and weaker versions

36:47

of men .

36:48

Well , and this is the interesting thing with Lewis , because

36:50

when you look at the line , the witch

36:52

in the wardrobe , lucy and Susan have this

36:54

great relationship with Aslan . I

36:57

mean a a favored role

36:59

, I would even say . In many ways , they're the ones

37:01

who go with him to the stone table , they're the

37:03

ones who have these long , deep conversations with him

37:05

. Um , it reminds you of the

37:08

women at Jesus's tomb . They

37:10

are not denigrated as

37:12

people , but Lewis doesn't do

37:14

the modern , really retarded modern

37:16

thing where he says , therefore they should

37:18

rule yeah , or Susan

37:21

ends up winning the battle . She comes , comes

37:23

as , like the the deus ex machina

37:25

, you know and and wins the battle no

37:28

, and even in , uh say , like in caspian susan's

37:30

in that one , but she's painted

37:32

mostly , as you know , their journey to

37:34

go find caspian at at the

37:37

how . She's painted

37:39

mostly in a negative light , particularly

37:41

because she's growing up and

37:43

her number one sin in that book is nagging

37:46

and Lewis is not

37:48

merciful with her on that front , nor

37:50

is Aslan . So it's really interesting

37:52

to me Like he understood the dynamics of sexual

37:54

nature .

37:55

You know I don't know if you know this , but the context

37:58

in which the motivation that Lewis wrote

38:00

these books was for his I

38:02

would think it was niece and nephew- yeah . And

38:04

so if you , if you take yourself

38:07

away from our current

38:09

culture and the environment , everything like that

38:11

, what's politically correct and all of

38:13

that , if you were to write a book for

38:15

your children or for your niece and nephew and

38:17

you wanted to highlight certain temptations

38:20

for the particular

38:22

ways in which both boys

38:25

and girls and men and women will be tempted

38:27

to sin , those are the sorts of things

38:29

that that Lewis writes

38:31

, and so it's going to be hysterics

38:34

, it's going to be nagging , it's going

38:36

to be vanity

38:38

. You know all of these feminine sins , but

38:40

the same thing can be seen as men

38:42

. All of these feminine

38:45

sins , but the same thing can be seen as

38:47

men . Cowardice , betrayal , a lack of honor , shrinking back

38:49

. You know all of these things are greed

38:52

. Those

38:58

sorts of themes are prevalent in the male characters as well , and so I think it's

39:00

I just think it's a really good barometer as to

39:03

the reading something that

39:05

was written before our current time . This

39:07

is why it's so important to read old books . I know it's

39:09

not that old , you know

39:11

it's only what ? 70 years old at this point

39:14

. Yeah but it's a lot's changed

39:16

, it's pre-sexual revolution ?

39:18

Yes , and obviously Lewis wrote

39:20

essays on this , so they were dealing with

39:22

the early phases of like you know , should

39:24

women be priests ? And stuff like that . But

39:27

it's interesting because most of the comments on here

39:29

are like I've read Lewis all my life on

39:31

Twitter in response to me I've read

39:33

Lewis all my life . Unfortunately , he was a total

39:35

misogynist and you just have to reject that part of

39:37

him . Blah , blah , blah and . But the

39:39

thing is , this is the chronological snobbery

39:41

, but it's like or maybe he was right

39:44

. Does anybody ever stop and

39:46

ask that question ? Dan

39:48

, one of the things that I think is really interesting . Let's

39:50

go back to the school bullies for a minute . The

39:52

school bullies they find Aslan

39:55

and Caspian returning , jill and Eustace and

39:58

they just start crying out like the

40:00

woke mobs today

40:02

Murder , fascist , racist

40:04

, you know , bigot . And

40:08

I love he puts at the end he says it isn't fair

40:11

. So there's a misplaced call for some sort

40:13

of justice . But it's interesting

40:15

to me that women are particularly prone to

40:17

this sort of manipulation .

40:19

Why do you think that is ?

40:21

That's a good question . I think that

40:23

women are , again , very emotionally

40:25

driven . They're , by nature , nurturers . Men

40:29

are much better at drawing hard lines defending

40:31

the perimeter . I think

40:33

that women this is kind of what Joe

40:35

Rigney talks about with the sins of empathy Wherever

40:38

you have like a , the amount

40:40

of female heads goes up like

40:43

women leading in a society , church

40:45

or family . The more that happens , the

40:47

more the empathy card will rule the day , which

40:50

it just means like crazy emotions are going to run

40:52

the show . And the thing

40:54

is , if the , if the

40:56

ticket to leadership is being crazy emotionally

40:59

, women will always have the advantage , because

41:02

the thing is , any honest woman

41:04

will will tell you this . She knows how to control

41:06

a home with her emotions . Now

41:08

, in a good home , she can

41:11

be a great help and

41:13

support and life giver to her husband

41:15

and her children through things like . I'm

41:18

always blown away by this A woman who smiles

41:20

at her children and her husband it's

41:23

like intoxicating . Just smile

41:25

at your people , yeah , and speak

41:27

sweetly to them . It's amazing what you can do . On the

41:29

other hand , a woman who's

41:31

near her cycle or a woman who's upset about

41:33

what's going on , she is going

41:35

to throw an absolute fit and

41:38

people will go into hiding in that home . Well

41:40

, think about it . It's like you go into a workplace . How

41:43

many female bosses have you had where you're just

41:45

like , or men acting like women

41:47

where you just go ? This is a passive

41:49

, aggressive , nasty , emotional , hysterical

41:51

environment .

41:52

Yeah , that's definitely the place where I have the CYA

41:55

folder so that I , you know , cover

41:57

your assets folder

42:00

so that you because eventually

42:02

it's going to explode at some

42:04

point yeah , so you have to be able to capture

42:06

all of the passive , aggressive notes and emails

42:08

and emotional outbursts and things like that . So

42:10

I can relate , but

42:13

not here .

42:13

But yeah , but it's interesting to Dan . You think about

42:15

this , like think

42:17

about how can we , weaponized in a , in

42:19

a feminine society and in

42:22

a female dominated society like our

42:24

own , murder fascist lions ? It

42:26

isn't fair . Think about today what's going

42:28

on with Christian nationalism . All

42:30

you got to do is call somebody a fascist or

42:32

a Nazi or a racist , or

42:35

the word now is kinest . All

42:38

you got to do is that and it's all of a sudden like I

42:40

can't even responsibly , I can't even have a conversation

42:42

with you because you're subhuman . Why

42:45

? Because somebody called me a name or called this other

42:47

person a name , or you referenced

42:49

the Jews or something like that . So now you're off

42:51

limits . But this is the sort

42:53

of manipulation that will tend to

42:55

happen and again , I think it's

42:57

particularly tied to the

43:01

female bearing

43:03

gone wrong when it's put

43:05

in a place of headship . I think that's typically

43:07

where you're going to see this sort of thing

43:09

. I also think it's interesting . I

43:11

want to see if you think this is true . I

43:14

always found working in a corporate bureaucracy

43:17

to be particularly

43:20

it's a particularly

43:22

feminine environment in the sense , like everything

43:24

that's bad about . You know

43:26

what we're talking about , the hysterics , all that stuff . It's

43:31

like everything goes wrong when you put

43:33

women all throughout that workplace and

43:35

then in charge of the positions in the workplace

43:37

. I always , again , I always found it to be a very

43:40

passive , aggressive , nasty environment . I

43:43

did not enjoy corporate America because men

43:45

didn't act like men . They acted

43:47

like gossipy , catty , nasty , like the worst

43:49

kind of women .

43:51

Well , and I think it's amplified or caused in

43:53

part because of the dreaded

43:56

human resources department that

43:58

is the epitome of what I'm talking about well , you have

44:00

essentially an organization or a department

44:02

that is a gatekeeper for the entire

44:05

business . It's basically

44:07

corporate entity . So they're the ones looking

44:09

at resumes , they're the ones doing the

44:11

, the you know so gatekeeping in

44:13

, and then , once people are in , where

44:16

are you supposed to go with issues

44:18

? You're supposed to go to the caddy ladies

44:21

in hr well , think about this .

44:23

I'm thinking of like five or six companies I've worked for

44:25

who , by the way , are notorious

44:27

gossips .

44:27

So right of confidentiality

44:29

. But I'm talking like .

44:31

In most of the cases that I've dealt with hr departments

44:34

, it's either like an old woman or

44:36

a gay dude and you're like

44:38

what are those people act like you

44:40

know , and they were usually like it was weird , cause it

44:42

would be like somebody who is like on the surface

44:44

, like sweetie , like the overly Southern

44:47

sweetie type thing or whatever , but

44:49

then like maliciously ripping your heart out or something

44:51

like oh , by the way , like

44:55

ripping your heart out or something like , oh , by the way , like we're just going to have to have

44:57

security escort you out with the folder , and I'm like you think I want any of

44:59

the garbage from this building . This was an instance

45:02

when I actually took another job and

45:04

they were negotiating back and forth and the minute

45:06

I said , no , thank you for the offer , but you know

45:08

I am going to accept this other offer . Ok

45:11

, great , well , security will be right up

45:13

. I was like two

45:15

weeks , you're not gonna give me . No

45:18

, we don't want you to steal any more intellectual

45:20

property I was

45:22

just like this is the slimiest . Like you can't

45:24

even have like man-to-man type conversations

45:26

, yeah , you can't even be treated like an adult

45:29

. Tucker carlson said this recently about

45:31

hr . You know he was

45:33

talking about how just vile it is and it's tied to the . How did the dei stuff get into corporations through ? About hr , you know he was

45:35

talking about how just vile it is and it's tied to the . How did the dei

45:37

stuff get into corporations through the hr

45:39

department ? All the racial ? You

45:41

know all that stuff it's through hr . But

45:44

it's like I . You know he said he's like

45:46

I couldn't even go to an employee and be like hey , do you have a problem

45:48

with me ? No , no , no , no , you

45:50

got to go through hr . There's going to be a process

45:52

. You have have to gossip . You have to gossip . They're encouraging

45:55

gossip .

45:55

Yeah , it's interesting is so ? My wife , uh

45:58

, back when we were right

46:00

before we got married and right afterwards she was working

46:02

for this large , um

46:04

fortune 500 recruiting company

46:07

. So they hired everyone from doctors

46:09

and C-suite kind of guys to to

46:12

like hospital staff and

46:14

, um , you know , telemarketing

46:16

people , so everybody right . And

46:18

so she worked with a lot

46:20

of these HR recruiters , you

46:23

know , for different companies and

46:25

what's really interesting , so this

46:27

, this was , uh , 10 years plus

46:29

ago . Uh , she

46:32

said she had talked with one

46:34

of her , uh , her former coworkers and

46:36

just to get a temperature of what's going on

46:39

there . And she , she

46:41

got off the phone and she told me , like I am so

46:43

glad that I got out of there because

46:46

I would have had to have been fired . There's

46:48

no way I could have done this because

46:50

of all of the different DEI stuff , that's

46:53

, all the gay and woke stuff that's getting

46:55

jammed down everybody's throat . And

46:57

she , she said I , there's no way I would have

47:00

been able to , uh , to keep

47:02

my job there without getting fired . Um

47:04

, and , and so it's . It is really interesting

47:07

that , with the gatekeeping

47:09

that those are the people that they're

47:11

also attracting is that

47:13

there's the mandatory hiring

47:16

of sexually confused

47:18

people of uh

47:20

, different races and

47:22

uh of different religious backgrounds . Uh

47:25

, in in all for the sake of multiculturalism

47:28

. And so your corporations

47:30

, the , the people that are being financially

47:33

benefited are the people that are actually

47:35

destroying the moral fabric of

47:37

the United States , and so

47:39

I don't know , take that for what it's worth . Those

47:41

are the people , by the way , that have jobs and that vote

47:43

.

47:44

Yeah , well , it's so interesting too . And then , like , this has been

47:47

a hard one for a lot of people . I think

47:49

you know people will listen to this

47:51

, but you know feedback from right response conference

47:53

. I spoke on patriarchy . It

47:59

was good but it is hard because people were like I appreciate you're talking on patriarchy

48:02

, but it's been hard for my me to digest

48:04

. I've never heard a sermon on that or a sermon

48:06

on you know , women shouldn't be ruling

48:08

in society . That it's foreign . It's

48:22

the first time that you know they're hearing in the Bible that sort of thing . Yeah , completely

48:24

. Guys like CS Lewis up until pre 1960 , especially this was just common

48:26

fare to read any of the Puritans . If one of the publishers hasn't , you know , excised the good portions

48:28

from them , you'll find that that's all in there . But

48:30

what's interesting to me , dan , is OK . Okay

48:33

, here's what happens when I start talking

48:35

about these things . Uh , I gave my patriarchy

48:37

talk you can find on youtube which should probably

48:39

link to it . Um , at

48:41

right response . But I had some

48:44

pastor friends that I went to seminary with and

48:46

they were like this is the good thing about guys who preach

48:49

expositionally , by the way . They

48:52

listened to it and they were like you know I was

48:54

listening to it and I was having a hard time . But then I started looking

48:56

at the passages and I'm like I think he might

48:58

be onto something here like

49:01

you invented it , right , but but they're

49:03

. This is what I love .

49:04

They're good bereans and they're gonna go read the text , right

49:06

which is what I want people to do .

49:08

Don't take my word for it . Go go , you know

49:10

, read zach garris masculine christianity , he'll , he'll

49:13

show you . So that's , that's really helpful

49:15

. But it was really interesting because one of my pastor

49:17

friends said to me he goes

49:19

, you know , I'm I'm listening to you talk about this and , like , I

49:21

think you're right . Like , if , like , women are

49:24

made to be in the home , that's her . She's the oikos

49:26

despot is what Paul

49:28

calls her . She's to serve in the home . She's

49:31

not to be outward

49:37

facing in the civil magistrate sphere , she's not to be , even historically she . That's

49:39

why she wasn't voting . It was actually a protection

49:41

to women . You focus

49:43

on the home .

49:44

I'll take care of this , babe like we curse the society

49:46

if she rules yeah , curse the society .

49:48

We find that all throughout the , the scriptures , um

49:51

. But he said to me he goes . If all that's

49:53

true , I'm not

49:55

sure women should vote . So

49:58

here's where the rubber , I think , hits the road for

50:00

people is you go , but wait a

50:02

minute . That's crazy , isn't it ? Because

50:04

we've been raised on a steady diet , you can drive through Salt

50:07

Lake and you find all these signs . Like Mormons

50:09

were some of the first to have women voting

50:11

in the , you know the 19th amendment

50:13

, isn't that like we grew up with ? Like that's

50:15

a birthright ?

50:16

Yeah , and my city council . I think there's eight seats

50:18

and only two are men .

50:20

Really .

50:21

Yeah , that's disturbing Yep

50:23

.

50:23

So I guess you

50:26

know , as people start making the connection

50:28

points , there's a potential

50:30

that they go wow , you

50:38

guys are really weird .

50:39

But historically , would this have been seen as weird that women are voting yes ? Absolutely

50:41

, it would be weird .

50:42

We would be , the oddballs .

50:43

But the thing is that with our feminist

50:45

mind , our feminist hive

50:47

mind , they would say well , yeah , that's

50:50

because this is the first time in history that women have

50:52

not been repressed , correct

50:54

, they've not been subjugated because

50:56

of birth control and abortion rights

50:58

, sexual rights , reproductive

51:01

rights , so they could actually escape

51:03

the bondages of the home

51:06

, essentially transcending

51:08

their created purpose

51:11

to a higher plane

51:13

which is very transhumanist and

51:15

absolute garbage Right

51:17

. But one of the I

51:19

mean sexual revolution . Aside all

51:21

of that one , what does the scripture

51:23

say about women ? You

51:26

just mentioned some things . You know that women

51:28

are a curse , they're Oikos despot

51:30

, and that also they're

51:32

more easily deceived . I

51:35

think that's something that people try to

51:37

explain away .

51:38

Do you think that , if that's true , is

51:40

a woman in the workplace more easily deceived ?

51:44

Yes , she's a woman .

51:45

What about a woman in

51:48

politics ? Yes , because

51:51

what you're saying is in

51:53

her nature , in her yes , because

51:55

so she takes saying is in her nature yes .

51:58

So she takes that nature everywhere she goes . Paul roots it in created

52:00

order by saying it was Eve

52:02

that was deceived . Eve was

52:04

the one that was deceived , the first woman

52:06

, she was the one that was deceived , right

52:09

, not Adam , not the man . And

52:13

so , yes , ruling politics had

52:16

a school board , school school

52:19

master , you know , or a headmaster

52:21

, all the way down to the woman

52:23

that has the right to vote , which

52:25

, again , democracy . We're not the biggest

52:27

fans , but women

52:30

that can vote . All

52:32

you have to do is just pull up the statistics over

52:34

the last few elections and

52:37

just arrange it by men

52:39

who vote and women who vote , who they vote

52:41

for .

52:42

Well , it's interesting because the majority

52:44

of married women voted for Trump . I'm

52:47

not even talking red blue , I'm just saying married

52:49

women . The majority voted for Trump

52:51

. The vast , even

52:53

bigger majority of single women voted

52:56

for biden . Why do you think that

52:58

is because single women are made

53:00

to women , are made

53:02

to have a head , and I think

53:05

they're easily deceived . And the

53:07

democrat party knows especially

53:09

leftists know how to play the empathy card . They know how

53:11

how to manipulate women and

53:13

I think this is you know . Paul even says

53:15

this . You know that false

53:17

teachers were creep into house and prey

53:19

on women . Why do you

53:22

think it is that all these weak women , weak

53:24

women , all these , you know , women without a head

53:26

, women without a head , that's right . Why do you think all these lonely

53:28

widows and married widows who

53:31

are older are on like home shopping

53:33

network and are giving money to televangelists

53:35

because they don't have leadership

53:38

, they don't have headship , which is actually

53:40

a protection . So this is the

53:42

other thing that lewis is really good about

53:44

is the men are there to lead as protectors

53:47

, like peter . Being high king isn't like

53:49

great . Now , woman , go make me

53:51

a sandwich . That's not what

53:53

that is about the headship

53:55

is for . You know , know , lewis will say in other

53:57

essays , male headship and

53:59

rule should look like the

54:02

cruciform life .

54:03

He even highlights this with Jadis and

54:06

the planet that she comes from

54:08

and how she made the decision to

54:10

kill everyone .

54:12

I think he actually . This

54:14

is the witch in the line , the witch in the wardrobe but

54:17

he actually .

54:18

but it's magician's nephew is what I'm talking about

54:20

. Yes , yeah .

54:21

But in I think it's in the

54:23

line the witch in the wardrobe he refers to her as an

54:26

offspring of Lilith , which is

54:28

pretty interesting . I didn't catch that

54:30

in previous readings of that , but that

54:32

is pretty interesting . So but he

54:34

ties it to the fall . I think in

54:37

the Jewish myth it's like a Talmudic myth

54:39

. I think Lilith is Adam's first wife

54:42

or something like this Bad

54:44

lady , hence the

54:46

witch title .

54:48

Yes , but she is the picture

54:50

of the female ruler

54:52

in his world . Yes , I mean as

54:55

well as , like the , the green snake lady I

54:57

can't remember her name now , but but yeah

54:59

, uh , so you have a couple of pictures of

55:01

what . What about , though

55:03

, let me ask you , with lucy

55:06

and um and

55:08

um , susan , they're queens

55:11

, what ? What about them ? Because

55:13

they're ruling as well , correct ?

55:15

somebody brought that up , uh , in one of the comments

55:17

. But it's interesting what their rule looks like . Uh

55:20

, because they're not going to battle and

55:24

they are definitely subservient

55:26

. I mean , it's clear that edmund and peter

55:28

are in charge , like they're the ones

55:31

making the primary decisions and

55:33

we don't get a big part of the

55:35

story where they're , you know , Queens . No

55:37

, I think even Lucy being given like her primary

55:40

gift from Father Christmas is healing . She

55:42

has a dagger , but it's small and it's for self-defense

55:45

, but her primary thing is

55:47

healing . And even with Susan

55:49

she has the horn calling for help . It's

55:52

like a rape whistle , I guess .

55:54

Basically , no , no , it's not . It actually

55:56

has a bigger theme , what you were mentioning

55:58

. Uh , in in in caspian

56:01

.

56:01

Oh , it's beautiful but , yeah , she's the one

56:03

who calls back to the kings of old to come and

56:05

the old narnia , or her horn , caspian

56:08

blows the horn , but they come to save the old

56:10

narnia . So , yeah , there's these great themes

56:12

, um , that are tied to it , but

56:15

, but I , functionally , I think it's the same instinct

56:17

where , uh , people are like , oh

56:20

yeah , like in the comments , people are like , oh

56:22

, women aren't supposed to rule . I guess

56:24

you've never heard of Esther

56:26

. I'm like that story does not

56:28

prove that Esther was ruling . She's

56:31

a queen , uh

56:33

, but like , even the way she has to approach

56:35

ashtar , her ruth or whatever his name is , however

56:38

, you're supposed to say that , um is

56:40

like subservient and submissive as

56:43

a queen must . What happened to the first queen ? She

56:45

was dismissed because she was rude to

56:47

her husband .

56:48

yeah , well , he asked her . To display

56:50

her body , for you know his nobles

56:53

, so yeah there

56:55

was that , there's that .

56:57

but she was disobedient yes , she was to

56:59

her husband and so she , yeah , is removed

57:01

. So , yeah , I just think a lot of those cases

57:03

where people use that it doesn't actually prove what

57:05

they think it proves . I did have one guy , by

57:07

the way , in the comments . He said there

57:10

is no woman in the new testament who is

57:12

portrayed as doing anything other than

57:14

obeying the Lord . And

57:16

like in two seconds I was like , well , sapphira

57:19

was killed for disobeying God . That was the first one

57:21

that came to mind . Um , jezebel

57:23

was actually a false teacher in revelation two , 20

57:26

. And like

57:28

a real woman , I mean she's called Jezebel , but

57:30

it's , it seems to be , you know well , but it seems to be , you

57:32

know , referring to a real person in a real place

57:35

. So that's pretty interesting

57:37

. So you start adding this up and you're

57:39

like there's actually a lot of

57:41

Herod's wife , herod's wife's daughter

57:43

. I see a lot

57:45

of bad women . Yeah , actually

57:47

, wow . But that , that instinct

57:50

and I think that was a pastor who said that you

57:53

, basically you don't think women sin

57:55

and that's not at all what

57:58

history nor the scriptures have taught us .

58:00

No , explicitly no .

58:02

So , dan , I kind of want to wrap things up here

58:05

with why

58:07

you think headship . First

58:10

of all , I want to get in this broader question

58:13

. There's a lot of conservatives and a

58:15

lot of people in the reformed conservative camps who

58:17

are like look , I agree with you on

58:19

paper , but that's not the fight right now , and fundamentally

58:21

like , if we want to win wide

58:24

swaths of conservatives , we

58:26

can't talk about headship , not like that . So

58:30

is it worth it to be talking about

58:32

it Simply because

58:34

it's not pragmatically effective ?

58:38

Yeah , I think it could possibly

58:41

be the issue of our time

58:43

, the number one issue

58:45

of our time . I mean

58:47

, obviously , like people need to repent and believe

58:49

in the gospel and turn to Christ

58:51

and all of that , absolutely yes

58:53

. Gospel

58:57

and turn to Christ and all of that , absolutely yes . But the thing is , why do we , as Christians

58:59

, allow non-Christians to be married ? Because

59:02

there's actually blessing in marriage

59:05

. It's a picture of the gospel , though . Shouldn't that just

59:07

be for for Christians ? It's a Christian

59:09

. You know remnants of , you

59:11

know of of the of our

59:13

society . Why , why is that still

59:15

practice ? Why did gay people want to be married so

59:18

bad ? Different conversation , but the the

59:20

reason that we still would say it's a good thing

59:22

for two unbelievers to be married

59:24

instead of to live together without

59:26

being married , is because it's actually a

59:29

blessing for them to do that

59:31

and it's a blessing for society .

59:32

It's covenantal and creational .

59:34

It's covenantal and creational and so

59:36

, that being said

59:38

, right ordered homes are

59:41

the foundation of society . I

59:43

mean read CR Wiley on some

59:45

of this . I'm

59:48

sure Zach Garris talks about it . Any of the Westminster

59:51

divines , exactly , exactly

59:53

, when you have disordered homes , you have disordered

59:55

society . It's really simple . It's

59:58

really simple . And the thing is

1:00:00

institutions . You will see I

1:00:02

mean , we could probably all see this If

1:00:05

a church , as soon as a denomination or

1:00:07

a church puts a woman on

1:00:09

staff as an elder , it's

1:00:11

over . It is the slide

1:00:13

into irrelevance and to apostasy

1:00:16

.

1:00:16

Even if you call her a shepherdess or a deacon .

1:00:19

Yeah , or an admin , you know a

1:00:21

type a director

1:00:23

. A director is what the Baptists really like to do

1:00:25

.

1:00:25

Just use a different title , but she's functionally leading . Yes

1:00:28

, she's in a position of headship , she's

1:00:31

exercising authority over men , and you're right , I

1:00:33

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1:03:22

Yeah , well , and so how much more society ? Well

1:03:25

, yeah , households ruled by women . When you have governments

1:03:27

ruled by women , when you have businesses ruled by women

1:03:29

, when you have militaries ruled by women or those

1:03:32

who dress like women , what are you going to

1:03:34

have the end ?

1:03:36

So part of this is sort

1:03:39

of it may be it's similar to the abortion conversation

1:03:42

, but it's like

1:03:45

the difference between abolition and the pro-life

1:03:47

movement . I think there's a lot of people

1:03:49

who are adjacent to our camp who would say things

1:03:52

like yeah , but we're not going to win that

1:03:54

fight today , like you're not going to repeal the 19th

1:03:56

amendment tomorrow , so we need

1:03:58

to start with , you

1:04:00

know , just the general gospel , right

1:04:03

, and so like don't , and they'll just

1:04:05

kind of get annoyed with us , like can

1:04:08

you please stop talking about like headship

1:04:10

and like girl boss Inc . And

1:04:12

you know , lady podcasters , because

1:04:15

conservatives aren't ready for that and

1:04:17

Republicans are like we need more bright women

1:04:19

leading out front . I've

1:04:22

heard that for years , you know , from the political

1:04:24

pundits . We need more pretty ladies

1:04:26

out front . So , strategically

1:04:29

, are we being unwise

1:04:32

by saying like no , we actually ? We

1:04:35

think this is a big issue , because

1:04:37

I think what I want to say to all that is

1:04:40

are you

1:04:42

ashamed of Christ's words or not

1:04:44

? Christ , paul

1:04:46

and the scriptures are

1:04:49

just abundantly

1:04:51

clear . What happens

1:04:54

when you put women in roles of leadership

1:04:56

? We are doing a disservice to women

1:04:58

, to men , to families and all society

1:05:01

, and so I think what you're saying

1:05:03

is like no , it's that important that

1:05:05

unless you get that right , it really doesn't

1:05:07

matter . On a lot of these other points

1:05:10

.

1:05:10

Well , yeah , and I think so much of our work here not

1:05:12

this episode in particular , but all

1:05:15

of the body of work that we've done what

1:05:17

we're trying to do and this is what the abolitionist

1:05:20

movement misses and the pro-life

1:05:22

movement misses is that they don't actually

1:05:24

paint a positive vision

1:05:26

for the future , and

1:05:29

so all you hear

1:05:31

from is fussing

1:05:33

, is essentially it's fussing

1:05:35

, and so not that abolitionism

1:05:38

is wrong .

1:05:39

I am yes , absolutely no

1:05:41

abortion whatsoever Criminal

1:05:43

punishment , and I'm sure there's like all of that within

1:05:45

that movement . You know , some do better than

1:05:47

others .

1:05:48

Yeah , yeah , individuals , I'm sure Individuals

1:05:51

, I'm sure do that . I

1:05:53

can think of a couple , but but overall

1:05:55

as a movement , it is the reputation

1:05:58

known as a positive vision

1:06:00

for the future . It's not and

1:06:02

and I understand , like the nature of abolition

1:06:05

, uh , movement is is that you're

1:06:08

trying to stop the murdering of children ? That

1:06:10

and that's , that's not . That's not the main point

1:06:12

I'm trying to make . Why would we message

1:06:14

the way that we do , to say

1:06:16

that one

1:06:18

of the biggest issues , if not the biggest

1:06:21

issue , in our time is

1:06:23

disordered gender roles , is

1:06:25

disordered homes , is women in leadership

1:06:28

? It's not insignificant

1:06:30

because of the rest of our body of work

1:06:32

, of painting the picture for the

1:06:34

new Christendom and the glories

1:06:36

that are to be had when you

1:06:38

obey Christ and you build for

1:06:40

his glory and for the sake of your people and

1:06:42

for your generations . It will bring blessings

1:06:45

to your children , to your grandchildren , to

1:06:47

the thousand generation , lord willing

1:06:49

. And so that's the overarching

1:06:52

theme how do you actually get there to

1:06:54

build a new Christendom ? Well , you have to obey the Lord

1:06:56

Jesus , and

1:06:58

that begins at home .

1:07:00

Yeah , and this is the crazy thing . Like you look at all

1:07:02

of Paul's , you know the major

1:07:04

New Testament letters , ephesians , romans

1:07:06

, et cetera . When you get to household

1:07:09

codes , where does Paul

1:07:11

start with obedience to the gospel

1:07:13

? Ephesians five it

1:07:16

begins , you know the this

1:07:18

is interesting . Well , guge even points to this out

1:07:20

it begins with women

1:07:23

submitting to their husbands . Well , and

1:07:25

then in Paul , even before his address to

1:07:27

to husbands , he says wives

1:07:29

, submit to your husbands . That's the

1:07:31

first thing that said about

1:07:34

obeying the gospel wives submit

1:07:36

.

1:07:36

Right , and you recall , in Titus two , when

1:07:39

, when Paul is telling Titus

1:07:41

teach younger women to

1:07:43

be workers at home , or older women , or

1:07:45

to teach younger women to be workers at home , lest

1:07:48

what happens , the word of God

1:07:50

be reviled .

1:07:53

Yeah . So if you're , if we're in part of these like conservative

1:07:55

, quasi conservative , christian adjacent

1:07:58

camps , and we say

1:08:00

, well , yeah , but this lady

1:08:02

, I know she's out in public , I know she's ruling

1:08:04

in her home , I know she's a politician or whatever

1:08:06

she is , but you know

1:08:08

, but it's better than nobody

1:08:10

doing it . But when you

1:08:12

think about something like Titus 2 , you're like , but

1:08:15

this is causing the word of God to be reviled

1:08:17

. Ultimately , isn't

1:08:20

that what God's word says ? Pretty

1:08:22

clear ? It's not . And

1:08:24

this is one of the things I think with modern evangelicals

1:08:26

. It's like , you know , what's really hard

1:08:28

in all of this is actually

1:08:30

that if you see what's clear in scripture and you just

1:08:33

go , okay , I'm going to obey that , now

1:08:35

you have people who hate you . Now people

1:08:37

are upset .

1:08:38

Well , possibly in your own home .

1:08:39

Yes , in your own families

1:08:42

, right ? This is where it causes

1:08:44

problems . I want to close on a positive though , because

1:08:46

you've you've been talking about positive vision , yeah

1:08:48

, and

1:09:00

I think a lot of people could listen to a podcast like this and they go , yeah , but that's not you . You , I hear this all the time . That was cs lewis's

1:09:02

day . Male headship doesn't work anymore . It simply doesn't work . You can't do it . Everything's

1:09:04

feminist or egalitarian to the core . You can't actually practice , and nobody

1:09:06

, dan , is practicing these things today , are they ? And

1:09:09

so what ? I ? I ? That's my question . Are

1:09:11

they ? Do you find places that could

1:09:14

you name , a place where

1:09:16

you actually see male

1:09:18

headship and females submitting and being happy

1:09:20

and marriages thriving ? Do you

1:09:22

know such a place , dan ?

1:09:24

Yeah , I do .

1:09:25

Imperfectly , imperfectly .

1:09:27

But yeah , in Ogden , utah we see it in our

1:09:29

own church .

1:09:29

Yeah , so paint the picture for me , because do

1:09:33

a little CS Lewis , bring

1:09:35

me into the environment . What

1:09:37

is it like ?

1:09:40

I mean , let me just , let me just pull out CS

1:09:42

Lewis-esque writing .

1:09:44

I can barely get out a sentence without stumbling

1:09:46

. But think about this . It's like if

1:09:49

you place yourself in our environment

1:09:51

one of the things that I hear the most

1:09:53

from outsiders the ladies come

1:09:55

here and they're like I was actually a little scared about the patriarchy

1:09:57

stuff Like was it going to be super

1:09:59

judgmental , or were the other ladies going to judge

1:10:01

me ? Or like I don't dress well enough

1:10:04

or you know , I don't wear enough dresses

1:10:06

, or what if I'm not ready to head cover whatever

1:10:08

? They

1:10:10

come here and the number one thing I

1:10:13

hear is but the women are so joyful

1:10:15

and happy and there's

1:10:17

something about that that's magnetic .

1:10:19

Yeah , so again no , so imagine

1:10:21

with me if you will . I will you're

1:10:24

walking East on 26th

1:10:26

street in Ogden , utah , your

1:10:29

faces towards the mountains and

1:10:31

the sun is rising over it and

1:10:33

you see the snow cap peaks and

1:10:35

you hear the echoes of psalm 104

1:10:38

coming from a tall

1:10:40

, steepled church building that has stained

1:10:42

glass and brick and a cornerstone

1:10:44

uh , dedicated to a

1:10:47

failed church that accepted women

1:10:49

pastors . But inside is vibrant

1:10:51

life . And you walk through those

1:10:54

doors and you hear the ringing echoes

1:10:56

of my soul , thy great creator

1:10:58

, praise and see it filled with

1:11:00

happy faces , joyful faces , squealing

1:11:03

children , sopranos , sopranos

1:11:06

and and young , young children

1:11:08

singing off key , but as

1:11:10

loud as possible , but as loud as possible . And there

1:11:12

are men bouncing their children

1:11:14

in the back and wives

1:11:17

smiling at their husbands . And

1:11:19

it's that's what , that's what Sunday

1:11:21

is like at our church and

1:11:24

it it is absolutely amazing

1:11:26

, as you hear children , children

1:11:29

that know the Lord's prayer , they

1:11:32

know the Psalms , they know Psalm 134

1:11:35

, they know Psalm 2 . They know Psalm 104 . They

1:11:37

know Psalm 98 . They know all of

1:11:39

these Psalms , psalm 23 . And

1:11:42

you see children

1:11:44

being taken out of the service by their fathers

1:11:46

to the basement to be corrected

1:11:49

for stealing their brother's snack

1:11:51

, and women

1:11:54

are going to back to nurse

1:11:56

their , their children , and all

1:11:58

radiating with joy . Even

1:12:01

in the hard times there's joy and

1:12:03

there's fruit , and

1:12:05

there's one thing that's intangible , that you

1:12:07

can't see , but you can definitely

1:12:09

feel it , and there is a buzzing

1:12:11

zeal and youthful excitement

1:12:13

in the air that is contagious

1:12:16

and makes your heart sing .

1:12:18

It does . Yeah , wow , that was powerful

1:12:20

Dan .

1:12:22

You should be a writer . I

1:12:24

can barely read .

1:12:25

I can barely read . Don't let him fool you . Yeah

1:12:28

, that is beautiful and I think too , even you

1:12:30

mentioned the singing . Mm-hmm , you mentioned the singing

1:12:32

. The beauty of like a four part singing

1:12:35

is that when women and

1:12:37

they're usually soprano , right , soprano or alto

1:12:39

, but soprano is dominant

1:12:41

and then a lot of times carrying

1:12:43

the melody or something like that , but you get into

1:12:46

these fuguing tunes and you have the men in the bases

1:12:48

and the tenors , but a lot of bases . That's

1:12:50

my people . But do you think about

1:12:52

the way that they lead generally and how

1:12:54

a bass , the bass part , really fills

1:12:57

the place ?

1:12:57

It goes in first and fuguing tunes , which I think

1:13:00

is interesting .

1:13:00

It is . And then the melody carried

1:13:03

by the Sopranos is this sweet melodic

1:13:06

accent piece . It's beautiful

1:13:08

, it's glorious . When they're working together

1:13:10

, they're great . You take that same female voice and

1:13:12

you put her up front preaching and it's nothing but

1:13:15

screeching . So , and for

1:13:17

all of us , or or the bass , who's

1:13:19

like trying to sing with a lisp

1:13:21

, you know the whole point is God

1:13:23

created that order and that range

1:13:25

and for each , for

1:13:28

men and women , for each sex , to know their role

1:13:30

and know their place and fit , and what

1:13:32

you get at the end of the day , when you play your part and you

1:13:34

play your role that God gave you , you get

1:13:36

this beautiful hymn . And

1:13:39

when , if people like , if the sopranos go

1:13:41

, stand in the bass section and be like , no , I'm a man now

1:13:43

, it doesn't work .

1:13:49

It becomes annoying . Yeah , yeah , really . What you're identifying is that God weaved throughout nature

1:13:51

the harmony of the masculine and

1:13:53

the feminine , and one of the ways that he did that

1:13:55

was through voice , and

1:13:58

so when we sing four part

1:14:00

Psalms in harmony

1:14:02

together , you hear the blending

1:14:04

of these beautiful voices

1:14:07

of of the women with

1:14:09

the men as compliments to the men

1:14:11

, and it is absolutely gorgeous

1:14:14

in harmony . And it's the same

1:14:16

thing in a home when everyone knows

1:14:18

what their responsibilities , what their duties

1:14:21

are and where their roles are , you

1:14:23

have a house that is harmonious

1:14:25

, that is a fruitful place and

1:14:28

it is beautiful . But when you have

1:14:30

a disjointed roles

1:14:33

and duties and a

1:14:36

lack of clarity as to what those are

1:14:38

, you essentially have the orchestra

1:14:40

warm up before

1:14:42

before they all hit , like or whatever

1:14:44

.

1:14:45

It's like you're 12 year old , when they're like playing the violin

1:14:47

and you're like oh that's not

1:14:49

pleasant , and it it does result in pain

1:14:51

and actually death . Yeah , yeah

1:14:54

. No , that's really helpful , Dan . I appreciate

1:14:57

that . I appreciate this conversation . By

1:14:59

the way , come join us June 6th through 8th

1:15:01

in Ogden , Utah , if you want to hear some of that singing . There's

1:15:04

going to be a packed house . One

1:15:07

of the other things we want to let you know we'll be at Ogden

1:15:09

High School , a very beautiful building . You can catch some of the

1:15:11

Instagram reels are up about

1:15:13

that to see what that building looks like on

1:15:15

my Eric on my Instagram

1:15:17

or on Brian's surveys a bunch of pictures

1:15:20

and stuff like that . It's going to be a beautiful venue

1:15:22

. We're going to have at least 650

1:15:25

people , because that's what we got today and

1:15:27

there's going to be more , Dan , but there's going to be glorious

1:15:29

singing .

1:15:30

Sunday is going to be great because our whole church is going

1:15:32

to be here .

1:15:32

Well , that's what I want to encourage people to . One of the things

1:15:35

that we need to talk more about is

1:15:37

that we will have Ogden High School for

1:15:39

Sunday service , so we

1:15:41

won't be in the church building , so that we can accommodate everybody

1:15:44

who's here and in town . So we want

1:15:46

to encourage you , we need like four services . Yeah

1:15:48

, it just wouldn't work . So

1:15:52

if you're in town , please stay . We'd love to have you for worship on Sunday

1:15:55

in Ogden , utah . I guess that'll

1:15:57

be the 9th , the 9th , june

1:15:59

9th . Come and join us . Go

1:16:01

to the link in the show notes or go to new Christendom press

1:16:04

dot com slash conference to sign

1:16:06

up for that conference . We look forward to seeing you guys

1:16:08

there once again . Dan , thank you so much

1:16:10

for joining me for this episode . Hedgehip is great

1:16:12

, we love it . Dan , thank you so much for joining me for this episode . Headship is great , we love it . And

1:16:15

CS Lewis Narnia , game changer

1:16:17

, game changer . Dan , do you remember our closing

1:16:20

?

1:16:24

I put you on the spot one more time

1:16:26

. Stay frosty .

1:16:28

Fight the good fight

1:16:30

and act like men . Let's go .