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1:21

situations. I'll

1:24

fix it up with mom and dad. Then I'll call you. I

1:27

know how to use a Pheletone now. A

1:29

telephone, Ron, said Hermione. Honestly,

1:31

you should take Muggle Studies next year. I'm

1:35

Matt Potts. And I'm Vanessa

1:37

Zoltan. And this is a

1:39

special episode of Harry Potter and the Sacred

1:41

Text. Matt, today

1:43

we're continuing our collaboration with the Greater

1:45

Good Science Center and exploring this concept

1:48

of intellectual humility. We

1:51

had a special episode with Professor Darryl

1:53

Van Tongeren in our Book 4 Chapter

1:55

14 episode. And we are

1:57

going to, you know, prove that we can do it. We

2:00

remember what Daryl said and really took

2:02

some of this to heart and continue

2:04

to explore this theme. That's right. So

2:07

in our previous episode, we did this for all of book

2:09

four, but before we wrap up our

2:11

partnership with the Greater Good Science Center, we

2:13

wanted to take a moment to think about

2:15

intellectual humility in the context of all seven

2:17

books. And so that's what we're going to

2:19

be doing today. Matt, as we

2:21

jump into this conversation, though, I am wondering,

2:23

I swear to you, I paid attention, but

2:26

I'm wondering if you could just remind our

2:28

listeners what the etymology of

2:30

humility is. I remember that I

2:32

have something to do with hummus. That's

2:35

right. It does have to do with hummus,

2:38

but not the delicious chickpea

2:41

based food. Obviously. Humility

2:43

derives from the word hummus, which just means like low

2:45

to the earth, low to the ground. And

2:47

I think this suggests one definition

2:50

of humility, which is not necessarily the one that

2:52

we're thinking about when we think about intellectual humility,

2:55

which is just like lowly. Like there's an idea

2:57

to be humble means to be lowly, to make

3:00

yourself low under and against like

3:02

things that are higher. Right. And

3:04

for that reason, like it's associated with meekness

3:06

in a way that can be problematic, especially

3:09

when you think of how valorizing virtues like

3:11

that and then projecting them upon people who

3:13

are already oppressed, like that can be problematic.

3:15

Right. So that's what humility is.

3:17

And that's not necessarily what we're talking about when we

3:19

talk about intellectual humility, although I think humility is more

3:21

complicated and we can think about it in other ways.

3:24

Intellectual humility actually broadens

3:27

that idea of humility away from

3:29

just like knee jerk

3:31

lowliness. The word intellect

3:33

comes from two Latin words put together,

3:35

legare, which means to read and inter.

3:38

So it means like reading between the

3:40

lines or like sorting through

3:42

something. And this idea of like intellect

3:44

is being able to pay attention carefully

3:47

to something and kind of

3:49

draw what's important, figure out where the subtleties

3:51

are. That's what intellect

3:53

suggests. Right. So when

3:55

you pair these words together, humility

3:57

and intellectual or intellect, intellectual humility.

4:00

What you have is not like need your cloudiness. It's

4:02

more like the kind of restraint

4:05

or caution to like really explore

4:07

all the possibilities to place

4:09

yourself in a position where you don't assume that

4:11

you know all, but you're willing

4:13

to pursue knowledge in lots of different directions,

4:16

right? And this is something that, you know,

4:18

Darryl really impressed upon us in our former

4:20

conversation. That sense of humility is

4:22

not just like lowliness for lowliness sake. It's

4:24

more just like a posture of openness to

4:26

that which you do not know. Something

4:29

that the world is more complex than any single

4:31

human brain. And there's always more to

4:34

know about the world. And it's a

4:36

lot less like lowliness and a lot more like openness

4:39

and curiosity. Matt, it's uncanny. I

4:41

feel like we talk about her a

4:43

lot, but the way that you were

4:45

just describing intellectual humility really reminded me

4:47

of a philosopher that I know we

4:49

both love, Simone Vay. That

4:51

she talks about prayer as

4:54

attention and love as attention.

4:56

And that, you know, with

4:58

your definition of intellectual humility coming

5:00

from the etymology and the

5:02

conversation with Darryl, right?

5:04

Like intellectual humility could be kind

5:07

of a version of prayer where

5:09

it's this close attention and openness,

5:11

right? And reading between the lines

5:13

and asking yourself again, you know,

5:16

she has this great essay called

5:18

On the Right Use of School

5:20

Studies where she talks about studying

5:22

Greek as a way to practice

5:24

paying attention in order to practice

5:26

prayer. It's an example that

5:28

I think straddles the line of what you're

5:31

talking about, which is like this

5:33

meekness as oppression, right? It's like

5:35

telling children, no, no, no, studying

5:37

Greek isn't just about studying

5:39

Greek, but it's also about prayer. Like

5:43

let's give you, you know, some

5:45

extra meaning to motivate you. But

5:47

I find her argument compelling

5:51

and I like thinking about

5:54

true intellectual humility or

5:56

not even true or pure, but

5:59

an honest, attempt at intellectual

6:01

humility as being prayerful. Yeah,

6:03

I think that's right. And I think that

6:05

the other thing that you noted, which is

6:07

so important about what Simone Vay says, is

6:09

that that kind of posture is

6:12

inclined towards lovingness, right? To

6:15

recognize that the other person in front of you

6:17

is more complicated than you can understand is

6:20

actually a posture of patience towards them. It's a recognition

6:22

of their full humanity. You know, if you think about

6:25

the people you love most in your life, right? The

6:27

places I tend to go wrong with the people I

6:29

love most in my life is when I feel like

6:31

I know them better than they know themselves, rather

6:34

than approaching them with a sense of

6:36

mystery and maybe even awe at how

6:38

complicated and rich their inner lives are.

6:40

And having that posture of curiosity towards

6:42

them is almost always more loving than

6:45

me coming in and saying, oh, I know what you

6:47

need and I know who you are. That just seems

6:49

controlling, obviously, and wrong. And so I think you're right.

6:51

I think this is what Simone Vay is getting at.

6:54

You're also right that what binds them together

6:56

is this capacity for attention, this

6:58

willingness not to jump to a conclusion, not

7:01

to be too hasty about believing

7:03

we understand everything. Allowing

7:06

the world to be more mysterious than

7:08

we can comprehend is a

7:10

posture of lovingness, or can be a posture of lovingness

7:13

towards the world. And I

7:15

think that's why this partnership between the Greater Good

7:17

Science Center and our podcast makes

7:19

sense because we are looking at these

7:21

books as a way

7:23

to help us approach the world

7:25

and others from

7:28

a more curious and loving posture.

7:30

It all makes sense and it's why this partnership is

7:32

one we're so grateful for. I mean, the example

7:34

that keeps coming to mind from

7:36

Harry Potter on this topic is

7:39

Molly's love for Fred and George

7:42

and how we're really seeing a

7:44

lack of curiosity, right? She's

7:47

just like, no, the path that you guys are going

7:49

on is wrong and it's not

7:51

gonna get you financial security and take care

7:53

of you later in life. And I think

7:55

it comes from a really good place. It

7:58

comes from the fact that she... has been

8:00

on this earth longer and is like, no, I

8:02

know. I have seen the

8:04

people who have succeeded and failed and I don't want you

8:06

to be poor in the same way that

8:09

your father and I were, right? And

8:11

yet we know that she's wrong, that

8:14

they're gonna have great success. And

8:17

what we wish we saw from her in

8:19

her love is more

8:21

curiosity, is, well, show me

8:23

your business plan. Like, what

8:26

are you working on? And

8:29

again, like, I am not

8:31

judging Molly. I think that this is

8:33

coming from a profound sense of love,

8:35

but like, that's just a moment

8:37

that like someone who we love and think is

8:39

so good about being curious and loving is coming

8:42

up short. I

8:44

mean, one of the biggest fights I had with my mom

8:46

of beloved memory was I was in a PhD program before

8:48

I came to seminary at Harvard. And

8:50

I eventually ended up getting a PhD at Harvard, but I

8:53

left a PhD program that I was already in to come

8:55

to seminary. And my mom was like, what's

8:57

the rush? She was like, finish the PhD.

9:00

Like, why would you walk away from a PhD? Like, finish

9:02

the PhD. And to be clear, my mom

9:04

supported the idea of me becoming a priest. She thought I

9:06

would become a priest. And it was

9:08

all coming from a loving place, which was

9:11

like, don't leave something on the table. That's

9:13

security, that's legitimacy, that's credential, all this stuff,

9:15

right? She's like, just don't walk

9:17

away from it, especially after you've put work into it.

9:20

I mean, everything turned out okay for me. But

9:22

it was this huge fight. It was because I knew

9:24

what I wanted and she thought she

9:27

knew better for me what was good for me. I

9:29

think I was right. I think

9:32

things have turned out okay.

9:34

But it was all coming, this is what I mean. My

9:37

mom still loved me even though she was in the

9:39

wrong. Like this posture of lovingness doesn't mean you do

9:41

or don't love necessarily, but it is

9:44

a posture of openness towards the other, which allows

9:46

them to be most fully themselves. Which can be

9:48

a scary thing when you really care about someone

9:50

and you are sure you know what is right

9:52

for them better than they do, because

9:54

part of your love is protectiveness and so it gets very

9:56

complicated and Molly's a perfect example of that, because there is

9:58

no question. among anybody,

10:00

Molly, Fred, and George, but she loves Fred and

10:02

George, right? Nobody questions that. It's

10:05

just she can't see what they

10:07

see. She doesn't know what they know about

10:09

themselves. Yeah. Matt, another thing

10:11

that this is just reminding me of is I

10:14

have such a clear memory of I think

10:16

it was the very first time that

10:19

I went to like the adult service

10:21

in synagogue. You know, we would go

10:23

to temple most Saturday mornings and

10:26

my brothers and I would go to the children's

10:28

service. We'd go to the beginning of the adult

10:30

service and then we would go to the children's

10:32

service and be brought back for the end of

10:34

the adult service with the prayers. And

10:37

I really think this might've been the very

10:39

first time that I was like, no, I'm

10:41

an adult. I'm seven. I get to stay

10:43

here now. And the

10:45

topic was humility. And I'm pretty sure

10:47

that it was that Akida, the story

10:50

of, you know, Abraham

10:52

being willing to kill his son Isaac

10:54

because God commanded him to. And

10:58

I mean, like really the rabbi

11:00

was advocating for this

11:02

idea of right sizedness that we

11:04

are curious about with our own

11:07

parents and with Molly of, no,

11:10

there are times where you are the authority

11:12

and like it's even okay to stand

11:15

up to God, right? Like faithfulness does

11:17

not have to be complete obedience. I

11:19

think he was really disturbed by the

11:21

idea of sacrificing your own son and

11:23

faith. And there are moments

11:26

where we should say no to God or

11:28

say no to our moms who

11:30

like don't understand us, right? It

11:33

just gets so complicated. And so

11:35

I really love Darrell talking about

11:37

right sizedness as one of

11:40

the things to consider when we are

11:42

wondering what role we want humility

11:44

to play in a certain moment. I

11:46

was like, no, actually right now, I

11:48

know, I know. Yeah,

11:52

I mean, what, before we were friends,

11:54

or when we became friends, you were also my student. And

11:56

I remember one of the things about you as a student

11:58

is that you are always more

12:00

interested in me and other

12:03

faculty lecturing and

12:05

less like in discussion. And

12:07

you know as a faculty person there was some research

12:09

that came out a few years ago about sort of

12:12

active learning is better learning and so they're all saying

12:14

lecture less to engage like conversational stuff

12:16

more and so I was always trying to push towards that and

12:18

you would all say like but you have the PhD like I

12:20

don't know this stuff you know this stuff I want to hear

12:22

what you have to say I don't want to hear what this

12:24

other person has to say I want to hear what you have

12:27

to say. And interestingly like

12:29

there's recent research that suggests actually lecturing is not

12:31

as bad as they thought it was and active

12:33

learning is not as good as they thought it

12:35

was but there is more benefit than folks thought

12:37

I was just reading an article about that but

12:39

I hear the echo of your rabbi's sermon

12:41

in that reaction. So since

12:44

this is a Harry Potter podcast and not

12:46

a podcast on the tour let's talk about

12:48

some examples from from Harry Potter. Great.

12:51

You know one thing that's really interesting to me about

12:53

the Harry Potter world is how the

12:55

Wizarding World and the Muggle World overlaps

12:57

so much but

13:00

also so little like sometimes in the

13:02

same place you know there are

13:04

Wizarding Villages in the middle of wherever there's

13:06

you know grim old places right in the

13:08

middle of London there are spaces right next

13:10

to other spaces and yet Ron

13:13

doesn't know how to use a felly tone right

13:15

or he just learned how to use it like

13:18

these the everyday objects that folks

13:20

have in these respective

13:22

communities they have no

13:24

familiarity with right and also it

13:26

seems like very little curiosity about

13:29

generally Arthur Weasley is an exception

13:31

Arthur is super curious about it.

13:34

That's right but he's derided for it and that's like

13:37

this lack of curiosity that's

13:39

like one of the marks that Daryl

13:41

spoke about of a lack of intellectual

13:43

humility and we see it between the

13:45

Wizarding World and the the Muggle World

13:47

you know even Dumbledore seems like paternalistic

13:49

towards the Muggle World and

13:51

all that they can't do or try to do

13:53

with their meager skills and that

13:55

lack of understanding I think or

13:58

lack of curiosity is not a strength of his. And

14:00

we see it also in more

14:03

murderous wizards like Voldemort and so forth.

14:05

But then on the muggle side, the

14:08

Dursleys are actively

14:11

anti-curious about

14:13

the wizarding world in spite of the fact

14:15

that Lily was a witch and

14:18

Harry is a witch and they have all kinds of reasons

14:20

to be curious about it, to be at least open to

14:22

the idea that people could live differently in the world and

14:24

they have no interest. So in

14:27

some ways, one of the central structuring features

14:29

of the book is this conflict between wizarding

14:31

world and muggle world and that

14:33

conflict only works because neither side

14:35

is really deeply interested in understanding

14:37

the other side. I am

14:40

struck by the fact that

14:43

I feel protective of both sides

14:45

and their lack of humility. The

14:48

Dursleys, I'm like, well, they have received nothing

14:51

but violence from the wizarding world. They

14:54

should be more curious. They are

14:56

abusers and horrible. And

14:59

Lily was taken from Petunia from a

15:01

young age. If

15:04

they were more curious earlier on, I think

15:06

that they would have a totally different relationship

15:08

to the wizarding world, one of love and

15:11

interest and I think they would be more

15:13

invited in. And so I

15:16

do think their lack of curiosity is what gets them

15:18

on this negative trail. I

15:21

also really understand being

15:23

scared of this and

15:25

then I also really feel for Dumbledore in the

15:28

wizarding world, I can't imagine

15:30

having a wand that can

15:32

just heal or pepper

15:34

up potion. They have the cure

15:36

for the common cold, right? And

15:39

the muggle world doesn't. So

15:42

I can imagine being like, well, those

15:44

are dummies. I don't

15:46

know how they not figured this out.

15:49

And I am not defending either

15:51

position, obviously. I

15:54

just like, I think that if you

15:56

have a tremendous amount of resources, like

15:59

I understand why you think that you're superior

16:01

to others. I also think

16:03

it's incredibly dangerous and it is not

16:05

taking into account privilege and

16:07

that just because other people don't have

16:10

as many actual resources as you doesn't

16:12

mean that they don't have as much

16:14

wisdom or intelligence or things to offer

16:16

or as deep of inner lives. I

16:18

think that we start to conflate these

16:20

things of like, well, I became financially

16:22

successful and that is because I am

16:25

better than you and I figured out some code to

16:27

being alive. I just think that these

16:29

are like very understandable mistakes

16:32

and I want to defend them because they are mistakes that

16:34

I make. I think that's exactly right

16:36

and I think it's especially important to name the

16:38

example of the Dursleys. As you say, they have

16:41

a reason to not be curious. If I'm curious

16:43

with a rattlesnake and it bites me,

16:45

like I'm gonna be less curious than next rattlesnake I

16:47

see, right? Even if this is the sweetest kind of

16:49

rattlesnake that never wants to bite, like I'm just, it's

16:52

an understandable human response to be skittish

16:54

or to think you understand

16:56

the thing that harms you. I

16:58

mean, this is how knowledge works, right? And

17:00

this is how kind of risk response

17:03

works. So yeah, I think

17:05

you're right. I mean, Petunia has had the

17:08

longest history with the muggle world and for her it

17:10

was like, I think she was really curious and

17:12

then jealous, right? Because Lily was

17:14

taken away and then, right, Lily was

17:16

murdered and then she's just like, nope, this is dangerous,

17:19

evil. Like why would she trust wizards when

17:22

the closest encounter she's had with a wizard, one

17:24

of the closest encounters she's had with a wizard

17:26

was Voldemort who killed her, their sister, right?

17:29

So of course she thinks she understands what

17:31

this world is or even if

17:33

she doesn't understand, she doesn't have a lot of patience

17:35

or curiosity about it because the threat is too great.

17:38

On the other side, I think that's a really great example with

17:41

wizards too, because I agree, right? Like with

17:43

all this power they have in their wands,

17:45

it almost speaks to the general history of

17:48

intellectual humility among the wizarding community

17:50

that there hasn't always been a

17:53

Voldemort dominating muggles. I mean, if

17:55

you look elsewhere in the history of humanity,

17:57

anytime people have had that much power

18:00

over other people, they have abused it, basically.

18:03

And in this one situation, these wizards don't,

18:05

and there have been occasional struggles where a

18:08

Slytherin or a Voldemort thinks that muggles

18:10

are meant to be dominated, and

18:13

it hasn't happened there, but it also does kind of

18:15

happen because we know the elves are treated that way,

18:18

how elves are treated that way, goblins are treated that way.

18:21

It happens in other categories

18:23

here. So it's not a, yeah,

18:25

maybe I want to retract that a little

18:27

bit, because the wizards do kind of suppress

18:29

and oppress communities in a

18:31

very intellectually not humble way, if

18:33

that's a good thing. Yeah. It

18:38

is wild that there's

18:40

just no bilinguality, right?

18:43

That literally Arthur doesn't know how muggle

18:45

money works, he doesn't know how the

18:47

tube works, he doesn't, right,

18:50

there's no electricity. And

18:52

you obviously have a

18:55

tremendous amount of understanding for muggles in this

18:57

situation. They do not know about the wizarding

18:59

world, and it is a world that is

19:02

kept deliberately secret from them, but the

19:05

fact that introduction to muggle

19:07

studies is not a required

19:10

class at Hogwarts, it's

19:12

just mind boggling. Like, you

19:15

live among them, right? It's

19:17

something that, you know, I

19:20

grew up with my mom speaking Spanish to us in

19:22

the house, because she was like, you live in Los

19:24

Angeles. Like, you can't not

19:27

speak Spanish here. Yeah.

19:30

Right, like there's just a responsibility that we have to

19:32

be able to speak to our neighbors, and

19:35

the wizarding world does

19:37

not take that seriously. Yeah,

19:40

I think that's right, but the more I speak about it, like, boy,

19:43

maybe this is more familiar to our own world than

19:46

I want to acknowledge, right? We just, here

19:48

at Harvard, we just, I've spoken about this before

19:50

on the podcast, a couple of years ago, we

19:52

released the Legacy of Slavery Report, which

19:55

is a kind of history, a historical study

19:57

and analysis, and also a sort of confession

19:59

of it. of the ways in

20:01

which this university has benefited from enslavement.

20:03

This is the enslavement of Africans

20:06

and their descendants, but also the enslavement

20:08

of indigenous peoples. And there was

20:10

recently a conference at Harvard that I attended on the legacy

20:12

of the slavery of indigenous peoples.

20:15

And there were lots of speakers who

20:17

come from local tribes, the Massachusetts and

20:19

the Wampanoag and the Nipmuc tribes, who

20:21

were here speaking about their

20:24

experience of living in and around Harvard and

20:26

among the people, the institution which attempted

20:29

to erase their culture and which

20:31

took their land. I

20:34

just learned a lot about

20:36

these folks. One of the things

20:38

that indigenous Americans often say is like, we are

20:41

still here. We never went anywhere. And

20:43

that was a lot of this conference. We're

20:45

still here. If you don't know about us, that's

20:48

just because you haven't been curious about us, because we

20:50

are still here. And we

20:52

have this history. And one of the things they

20:54

said at the conference over and over again was like, we're

20:57

glad that you're talking about this, but we already

20:59

all know this history. This is for you folks

21:01

who have not been curious about it, curious

21:03

enough about us the last few hundred years. And I

21:05

lived down on Cape Cod, and the Mashpee

21:08

Wampanoag is one of the larger tribal organizations

21:10

in the town right next to me. But

21:14

again, we live right next door to

21:16

each other, but there was just a lack of

21:19

openness, curiosity

21:21

about the people who experience

21:24

the world differently, who have experienced history

21:26

differently, that there was

21:28

the same kind of lack of curiosity that I'm,

21:31

at least from my side, that I'm

21:33

kind of maligning in the

21:35

Wizards and the Muggles of this book. So even though it looks

21:38

dramatic and impossible or unlikely in the series,

21:40

maybe it's not. I think we probably all

21:43

live versions of this in our

21:45

own lives. Oh, for sure. I

21:47

know that I've talked about this before,

21:49

but Timothy Snyder, who is a professor

21:51

of the history of fascism, wrote

21:53

this book that I really admire a lot called

21:56

On Cure Any 20 Lessons From the

21:58

20th Century that is sort of a Like,

22:00

how you know when tyranny is

22:03

happening around you. And

22:05

one of the things that I just think

22:08

we see so clearly in book five, and

22:10

this is obviously front of mind because

22:12

it's the book that we're studying right now,

22:14

is when governments start using

22:18

the systems that they already have, but using them

22:21

in a different way. And

22:23

we really see that with the trial

22:25

in book five, right? And what this

22:27

is, is a lack of curiosity. In

22:29

theory, a trial should be about

22:32

trying to find a truth, right?

22:35

Like that is technically

22:38

what should be going on here. It

22:40

is a search for justice. And

22:43

we know that that is not what trials do

22:45

a lot of the time. And

22:47

you really, really see that both

22:49

in the pensive of how trials

22:51

were working during the time after

22:53

Voldemort fell, but also just

22:55

with this trial with Harry, right? Like,

22:57

the only sort of curiosity we get

23:00

is about Harry's Patronus. He's like, what?

23:02

You can do a Patronus, a fully

23:04

corporal Patronus? How old are you? But

23:07

like, there isn't any curiosity

23:09

about what actually happened. The fact

23:11

that there were dementors in Surrey.

23:13

This is just theater. This is

23:16

not a hearing. This is

23:18

not a trial. This is

23:20

using power structures that already exist

23:22

in order to have the desired

23:24

outcome. And obviously Dumbledore

23:26

comes and is a major pebble

23:29

in that wheel, you

23:31

know, like, and prevents this from happening.

23:34

But it is an early sign of fascism

23:36

when you're like, this looks

23:38

like what used to be something,

23:41

but you are using it

23:43

for truly nefarious purposes.

23:45

Yeah, I think that's right.

23:47

And I think that Fudge and Dolores

23:49

Umbridge in particular kind of

23:52

embody that lack of curiosity. Like,

23:55

they think they know who Harry is already.

23:57

They think they understand teenagers, right? Teenagers are

23:59

selfish. And this is what

24:01

they're saying, right? I mean, I think we know developmentally

24:03

that teenagers tend to be more self-centered than others. But

24:05

that doesn't mean that's all they are or all they

24:07

can be. But Umbridge

24:10

and Fodger are like, oh, the only possible

24:12

explanation here is Harry made up a story.

24:15

And we are not actually interested in anything else other

24:17

than that explanation, which is dumb.

24:20

Because they also have a dead kid. They

24:23

have Cedric. And no good explanation for how

24:25

he died. And Harry's offering

24:27

one. And even if they don't believe him, I

24:31

can understand maybe why they would not want to

24:33

believe or not be able to believe yet that

24:35

Voldemort had returned. But they

24:38

still have an unanswered question that they seem

24:41

tragically and criminally uncurious

24:43

about, which is that a child

24:46

at the wizarding school died.

24:49

And the only witness is a person they think is

24:51

selfish in making up stories. And that's the only explanation

24:53

they'll take from him. At the very least, they should

24:55

want to learn more from him. Rather

24:58

than try to silence him, rather than assume

25:00

his story is without credential. I

25:02

mean, even if you thought he was lying, you

25:05

should want to figure out why is this kid lying. Something

25:08

awful happened. And this

25:10

kid has kept making up a story. Why would he be

25:12

doing that? Other than the only reason they come up with

25:14

is, oh, he's glory seeking

25:16

whatever. These are just like, even if we

25:18

give them every benefit of doubt, they are

25:20

still making the worst possible assumption. And it's

25:22

because they're not curious. Because they think

25:24

they already know what happened, rather

25:27

than exploring and acknowledging that the world

25:29

is more mysterious than

25:31

their assumptions can accommodate. And

25:33

again, I accuse them that I'm

25:35

like, but I understand. And

25:38

I'm like, what a horrible truth to confront, that

25:40

you gave permission for there

25:42

to be this tournament

25:45

that was supposed to be all about

25:47

bringing people together and instead a child

25:49

died. Like, so much

25:51

easier to be like, well, that kid was

25:54

incompetent. Or Harry is a liar than to

25:56

believe that you were complicit in the death

25:58

of a child as a child. innocently

26:00

and as well-intended as your complicity might

26:02

have been. That's

26:04

right. Like, it's

26:06

often hard for us to believe that we could be the problem.

26:09

Right. Right. And

26:11

so we'll be convinced of answers where somebody else is

26:13

the problem. But if they were really curious, they would

26:15

discover that this plan and this government has been part

26:17

of the problem and part of the reason why Voldemort

26:21

was able to

26:23

arise. I mean, it makes me think of just

26:25

another really interesting facet

26:27

of all this. I feel like you've been this kind of

26:29

voice of understanding in this conversation so

26:31

far. Vanessa, like you've actually shown a lot of

26:34

intellectual humility towards these

26:36

characters. I think that's also just

26:38

really important for us as readers of these novels. I mean,

26:40

you will hear us on

26:42

this podcast, you listeners will hear us saying,

26:44

you know, Dumbledore did this wrong, Hagrid did

26:46

that wrong, criticizing various characters

26:48

for things they're doing. But, you know, there isn't

26:50

a major character in these novels who has not

26:53

suffered some kind of complex trauma. Right.

26:56

It's really hard to kind of project one's

26:59

own experience upon them and say like, oh,

27:01

I know why they're doing something or I

27:03

know why they're reacting the way they are

27:05

or how they ought to be reacting. I

27:07

mean, that's exactly the thing we began this

27:10

conversation talking about, that urge to impose understanding

27:12

upon another rather than being

27:14

curious about how they're experiencing and how they're

27:16

acting. It doesn't mean that we have to

27:18

withhold all judgments or that every action

27:20

a person takes is the right one. But

27:23

especially when we talk about these characters who have lived

27:25

through this awful war, who are about to live through

27:27

another awful one, who have seen people

27:29

they love tortured and murdered and all these things. It's

27:32

a good reminder for us just as readers to kind

27:34

of practice the same virtues when we

27:36

talk about these characters and to think about how

27:39

they're reacting. I think you're doing that right. Like we

27:41

can say that and you did say what the Dursleys

27:43

do is wrong while also saying I

27:45

get how they ended up doing the wrong thing. Right.

27:49

Right. And you have to generate understanding

27:51

even when loving

27:53

judgment and correct judgments. water.

28:00

You may know me from my previous classes

28:03

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29:31

This week's episode of Harry Potter and the

29:33

sacred text is brought to you by Clio

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AI in the app store today. I

30:45

do want to just spend a minute

30:48

talking about Neville who I think has

30:50

emerged as I read and reread these

30:52

books as just like a

30:54

real hero in every sense of the word.

30:57

There's a form of humility that I

30:59

wish he had about himself. And

31:02

I think that this speaks to right-sizedness, you

31:04

know, one of the things that Darryl talked

31:06

about, which is that Neville really

31:08

just believes that he's like

31:11

basically a squib. And

31:13

because of that, McGonagall is saying to

31:16

him, no, you're better than this. No,

31:18

I'll talk to your grandmother, right? And

31:20

then we see him have some confidence

31:22

built in the DA and then get

31:25

the right wand. And,

31:27

you know, really start to step

31:29

into this more

31:31

right-sized role for himself. And

31:34

it's just so interesting all of

31:36

the different reasons that this has

31:38

been going on, right? Like there

31:41

is this mentality that there are

31:43

squibs and they are less powerful

31:46

and entitled than non-squibs. And

31:49

then there's also this like

31:51

concern about being a student

31:53

and, you know, maybe being a

31:55

different kind of learner. And then

31:57

there's financial access to the right tools.

32:00

And they're right. Like there are all of

32:02

these reasons not to mention his like huge

32:05

trauma of having parents who were

32:07

tortured when he was a baby

32:10

Tortured into not remembering him And

32:13

so they're just like all of these

32:15

reasons why this child's confidence is crushed

32:18

And it is a minor miracle that he comes

32:20

out on the other side of this And

32:23

I think that part of this is that like

32:25

no one is curious about him

32:28

and where his powers might lie and where

32:30

his Talents might lie

32:32

right and then professor sprout is

32:35

like hey kid. I think you might have

32:37

a talent here and McGonagall

32:40

again is just like questioning why his

32:42

grandma's saying certain things right like some

32:44

adults in his life start questioning this

32:46

narrative that he has about himself and

32:49

then Harry starts questioning this narrative he

32:51

has about himself and He

32:54

believes that it's possible Dumbledore in

32:56

book one, right? Yeah, I was

32:58

like Dumbledore right? Like yeah, like

33:00

you here's ten points like you

33:03

Weren't wrong to stand up to your friends

33:06

Yeah, because you can understand like how someone

33:08

would not count that as bravery sending a

33:10

friend Totally, but double door says

33:12

like nope, that's bravery. You got it, too Right

33:15

and kind of authorizes a little bit of eyes is that

33:17

bravery so that Neville can right

33:19

size right Right

33:22

size himself and like start to inhabit the world

33:24

where his talents are and have confidence in them

33:26

Yeah, I think it's right there are there are

33:28

these moments in the first few books where?

33:31

Neville is drawn out of himself not because

33:33

grownups or adults do anything like they don't

33:36

they don't oversell it No, not like you're

33:38

the bravest and you get a hundred points. It's ten

33:42

Right. It's just like being right-sized

33:44

like giving credit where it's due is all that

33:46

he needs for him to kind of Emerge

33:49

into that form of humility, which

33:51

is like this right-sized ness that that Daryl

33:53

talked about I love this

33:55

concept of right-sized ness because I think

33:57

it can really point us away from

34:00

a certain kind of self-loathing, right? Like,

34:04

let's admit that you're not that bad,

34:06

right? Like, let's actually

34:08

try our best to be curious about where that's

34:10

coming from, and if that's coming from a trauma,

34:13

from other people's stories about

34:15

you, from a mental health

34:17

concern, but like, actually you're

34:19

not the worst. And

34:22

I just think it's a life

34:24

of constantly questioning and constant curiosity.

34:27

Yeah, I think this is the thing about intellectual

34:29

humility, right? The intellectual part from the etymology that

34:31

we talked about is supposed to invite

34:34

us into recognizing the complexity of things, and

34:36

that committing to yourself or trying to decide

34:39

to be right-sized means

34:42

like self-reflection, right?

34:44

Like serious curiosity about yourself as

34:47

a complex person yourself. And if you

34:49

just say like, oh, I suck at everything, or

34:51

I'm great at everything, you're avoiding both, right? You're not

34:53

actually doing the hard work, right?

34:55

And I think the other thing about intellectual humility is

34:58

like being willing to understand that you were wrong, right?

35:00

And that's what I think was really important about what

35:02

you just said, that it's just kind of like this

35:05

posture. You have to be persistent about right-sizing

35:07

this because you might think you're right-sizing,

35:09

and then you'll do something and be like, oh, I thought

35:11

I was, I am a little bit smaller than that. I

35:14

should have aimed lower. Or, oh boy, I could have

35:16

done more than that. I should have aimed higher. Like

35:18

it requires this idea that like, oh, I think I

35:21

know, but I'm willing to be proven

35:23

wrong. And this is something that Neville

35:25

starts to cultivate, right? Right. Like he begins,

35:27

as you said, with just, I'm

35:29

bad at everything, I'm good at nothing, which

35:31

is not, that's not self-reflective at

35:33

all. Then people start recognizing

35:36

and acknowledging where he does have gifts,

35:38

and he starts to think like, oh, maybe I can do more. Maybe

35:41

I can be more. And he starts trying things on,

35:43

and sometimes he goes wrong because he brings a plant

35:45

onto the train, and it sprays goo everywhere, right? That

35:47

was a little bit too big.

35:49

He should have been a little bit smaller,

35:52

right? But then he, you know, figures other

35:54

stuff out, and he starts to realize that

35:56

being right-sized is like a process, is

35:58

an unending kind of thing. of posture

36:01

and process of self-reflection, which is what it means to be

36:03

a good person, I think. Yeah,

36:05

and I love the idea that

36:08

when we're younger, the pendulum is

36:10

swinging wildly of like, oh,

36:13

too small, too big. And then

36:16

as we get older, hopefully, the

36:18

degrees at which we're

36:20

swinging get smaller, but

36:22

we never stop swinging. There's just

36:24

always this like, oh, like

36:27

I was supposed to be the leader here. I was

36:30

supposed to step in more. I was the adult in

36:32

the room. I should have done

36:34

better. Or this like, I, that was

36:36

not about me. I blew it. I blew it.

36:40

I should really take a step back. Yeah.

36:43

I remember I was once watching a game

36:45

of pickup basketball and just

36:47

watching these young men mess up,

36:51

right? Like by falling or whatever

36:53

it was, stepping in and saying

36:56

my bad, my bad. And

36:58

what blew my mind is I had grown

37:00

up watching sort of professional basketball and there's

37:02

a referee who's like, that was a foul.

37:05

And watching people be like, my bad,

37:07

that was a foul. Or someone saying,

37:09

Hey, you fouled me. And the other

37:11

person being like, yup, I did this

37:13

like saying my bad, really, I was

37:15

like, Oh, we can self-regulate and we

37:18

can say my bad and then start

37:20

dribbling again and just move on. It

37:22

was just so beautiful. It was like

37:24

watching an orchestra play of like these

37:28

like minor corrections and this trust and

37:30

faith in one another. Yeah. That

37:32

is one of the beautiful things about sports. Yeah. I

37:35

mean, one of the gifts of a basketball game or a

37:37

Quidditch match is that like you mess up, but the game

37:39

moves on immediately. Right. Exactly. You're in the flow of it.

37:41

I think that when we make mistakes in our own life,

37:43

or at least me, I'm like, Oh boy, now I have

37:45

to go to bed and try to fall

37:47

asleep and wake up tomorrow and figure out, right? Like it doesn't

37:49

feel like you're in the flow, but you actually are in the

37:51

flow. Cause like you said, like this is just, this

37:53

is just life. It's just always moving on. And yeah, I

37:56

mean, it's easier in a game because it does end,

37:58

right? You're like nine. minutes and I'm

38:01

off the soccer field or you know, but

38:03

yeah, I do think that there's something gracious

38:05

about that mentality. This week's episode of Harry

38:07

Potter and the Sacred Text is brought to

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situations. So

40:08

Matt, we're gonna bless a character across

40:10

all seven books for embodying

40:13

a certain kind of humility and I

40:15

would like to bless Dobby. Dobby

40:18

is first of all

40:20

just like someone who's courageous within

40:22

such strict boundaries, right? How

40:24

we meet him of going to Harry's

40:26

house and like really pushing up against

40:29

a like literal magical spall of boundary

40:31

of what he's allowed to say and

40:33

what he's not allowed to say and

40:35

stepping in to just the fullness of

40:37

his potential for what he can do

40:39

for Harry is incredible. But

40:42

I mean probably because of what's going on in the world

40:44

right now for the first time I really see Dobby as

40:47

a refugee. You know his home

40:50

culture of being a house

40:52

elf was unsafe for him or

40:54

of being a Malfoy manor was unsafe for

40:56

him and through Harry and through

40:58

his own tenacity he's able to escape to this

41:00

other culture and he

41:02

is endlessly curious about wizarding

41:05

culture and about the

41:07

relationship that he can have with Harry

41:09

and Dumbledore and it's

41:12

a tragic story for Dobby and

41:16

just like I think what we love

41:18

about him is his constant curiosity

41:20

and love and I think that they

41:22

are totally tied together for him. What

41:25

about you? Who would you like to bless? You

41:27

know I'm a teacher in one of my primary vocations and

41:29

so like I was thinking a lot about like what this

41:31

looks like as a teacher and so I wanted to bless

41:33

a teacher and I was going to bless Professor Sprout but

41:36

we already talked about why Professor Sprout

41:38

is great. So I'll bless

41:40

McGonigal who I think is a teacher with some

41:43

like intellectual humility but

41:45

she really like wants students to write size

41:47

like we're in book five now and there's

41:49

that moment where they have to transfigure a

41:51

mouse and Lavender is skittish about it and

41:53

McGonigal was just like it's just a mouse

41:56

right like she's like recalibrating

41:58

these two and she does it with

42:01

Neville too and does it with Harry. Like she really treats

42:04

maybe more than any other of the

42:06

teachers, including Dumbledore for sure, who I

42:08

think infantilizes in these children sometimes. She

42:10

really treats these children

42:13

generally as fully

42:15

formed and complex people who

42:17

have both strengths and weaknesses that

42:19

they can figure out how to navigate on

42:22

their own. And that doesn't mean that she's

42:24

always easy or right or warm

42:26

towards the children, but I

42:29

think that the children just really trust her and

42:31

trust her to trust them when it counts.

42:34

And that comes from like this idea of right-sidedness.

42:36

She knows what she is, she's a teacher, she

42:38

has certain responsibilities, which she will execute

42:41

as faithfully as she can. And

42:43

she demands exactly of these children

42:45

what they are capable of. I

42:48

think it's great. And so I'm gonna bless McGonigal.

42:51

Well, Matt, thank you so much for

42:53

doing this special episode with me. And

42:55

I'm gonna go in February to

42:58

the Greater Good Science Center Conference and

43:00

talk about what we learned. And it's just

43:02

been such a pleasure. Yeah, thank you,

43:04

Vanessa. And thank you to Darryl and to the Greater Good

43:06

Science Center for their support. Matt,

43:09

our big reminder today is that I

43:11

am teaching a class in January, a

43:13

class of reflection as to how to

43:15

start 2024 with courage. And

43:18

we are going to be doing a lot of sacred

43:20

reading practices. And I really

43:23

encourage everybody to check this class out.

43:25

You can find out more at notsorreworks.com.

43:28

Harry Potter and Sacred Text is a Not Sorrow production

43:30

and Not Sorrow Productions is a feminist production company. Our

43:33

executive producer is Caitlin Hofmeister. We are

43:35

edited and produced by AJ Aramas. Our

43:37

music is by Ivan Paizau and Nick

43:39

Bull, and we are distributed by ACAS.

43:41

Special thanks this week to Lara Glass,

43:43

Ariana Nettelman, Julia Argy, Margaret H. Willison,

43:45

Nikki Zoltan, Hannah Rehak, Courtney Brown, Cass

43:47

Richard Kyle, Natalie Fulkert, and Stephanie Balthill.

43:49

Funding for this episode was provided by

43:51

UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center as

43:53

part of its expanding awareness of the

43:55

science of intellectual humility and its

43:58

support of its own simple things. I'll

44:17

fix it up with mom and dad, then I'll call you.

44:20

I know how to use a telly, a spelly tone, oh sorry.

44:23

I'll fix it up with mom and dad, then I'll call you. I'm

44:27

having trouble getting this line reading done. Then

44:30

I'll call you, then I'll call you.