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week's episode of Harry Potter and the

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Sacred Text is brought to you by

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StoryWorth. We gave StoryWorth to my mom

1:01

a little over a year ago and

1:03

we've just submitted the book with all

1:05

of her stories. In sending her prompts

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from StoryWorth every week, I have heard

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things about my mom who I'm really

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close to that I never knew before.

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That's storyworth.com/potter to save

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$10 on your first

2:22

purchase. Chapter

2:24

32, Out of the Fire.

2:27

I'm not going. I don't need the

2:29

hospital wing. I don't want. He

2:31

was gibbering, trying to pull away from

2:34

Professor Tofty who was looking at him

2:36

with much concern and who had just

2:38

helped Harry out into the entrance hall

2:40

while the students all around them stared.

2:43

I'm Vanessa Zoltan. And

2:46

I'm Caspar Ticah. And this

2:48

is Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. Caspar,

2:51

our only announcement this week is our

2:53

every flavored bean conversation which people can

2:56

get by subscribing to our Patreon. And

2:58

that is we are going to talk

3:00

about times in which we have been

3:02

scammed because Umbridge gets

3:04

played in this chapter.

3:06

Hermione is like, no, you

3:09

don't need backup. I don't have

3:11

a wand. And Umbridge is like,

3:13

that's true. And so when have

3:16

we like Umbridge been

3:18

played? And you can hear that

3:20

and add free episodes and a

3:22

lot more at patreon.com/Harry Potter Sacred

3:25

Text. My story is set

3:27

in Chicago. It's why I don't like

3:29

Chicago. Check it out. Caspar,

3:31

I also just want to take a second to take

3:33

a step back. We are coming

3:35

up on the eighth year of

3:38

this podcast and the 10th year of

3:40

us working on this project together of

3:42

treating texts as sacred. And

3:45

you know, the reason that we do

3:47

this work is that we really do

3:49

believe that by treating texts as sacred,

3:51

you can learn more about your values

3:53

and learn how to practice your values.

3:56

Learn that, wow, you really value the way that

3:58

Molly treats Harry and that's means that

4:00

you value hospitality and then you can

4:02

watch Molly and wonder about how she's

4:04

hospitable and how you can bring that

4:07

into your life. And you

4:10

know we do that with all of our work and

4:12

all of our podcasting and all of our classes are

4:14

built around that but one of the biggest ways that

4:16

we do that is through our yearly what matters course.

4:19

It's a 28 week course and we

4:21

meet weekly with a really tight-knit cohort

4:23

of only 24 people and in this

4:26

class you read in community you learn

4:28

from spiritual leaders you have one-on-one chaplaincy

4:30

you do storytelling with Michaela Bly and

4:32

we do it with these three different

4:34

texts. And it's just it's

4:37

a really special class when

4:39

I left Divinity School I really remember

4:41

thinking like this should be just

4:43

like a human right like water like

4:46

you should get three years where you get to discern

4:48

what your values are and learn how to live up

4:50

to them to the best of your ability and what

4:53

matters is our attempt to offer that.

4:55

So before we get into the episode

4:57

I just wanted to let you know

5:00

about this program we have scholarship money

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available it is a small cohort and

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it really is a very special opportunity

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to do exactly what Not Sorry Productions

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has always been dedicated to which is

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using sacred reading in order to determine

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your values and figure out how to

5:15

live up to them. So go to notsorryworks.com

5:17

to learn more about it. Casper you are

5:20

telling the story this week on the theme

5:22

of isolation what story do you have? Well

5:25

it's no surprise that this theme immediately took me

5:27

back to the height of the pandemic as I'm

5:29

sure it does for so many people you know

5:32

that first few months of complete

5:34

isolation Sean and I had moved

5:36

to New York City six

5:39

months before I'd been traveling a lot and so

5:41

I had kind of planned that like New Year

5:43

knew me I'm growing roots in the place that

5:45

I live and I'm gonna connect with local neighbors

5:48

and make friends in the city that I'm in.

5:50

Well all of that of course was rudely interrupted

5:52

in March 2020 and you

5:55

know for the first half of that year

5:57

Sean and I really leaned into doing like

5:59

fashion. shows at home for each other

6:01

or we did like this singing group online which

6:03

I know so many of our listeners joined and

6:06

there were all sorts of like creative ways that

6:08

I got excited about to try

6:10

and make myself feel connected in the midst of

6:12

this isolation but by the time

6:14

full 2020 came around I was just like

6:16

hitting my wall of fat and I just

6:19

couldn't muscle my way through it with creative

6:21

ideas or like fun digital things in the

6:23

same way that I'd done in the spring

6:25

and so with Christmas

6:27

coming I was like I

6:29

refused to be by ourselves over Christmas

6:32

like we have to find something and

6:34

we had met this kind of lovely

6:37

couple who lived in our neighborhood I'd

6:39

literally met them twice Shawna met them

6:41

three times I knew that

6:44

one of them had lived in South Korea

6:46

for a year the other one was from

6:48

Indiana like I really didn't know that much

6:50

you know on the face of it we

6:53

didn't even have that many shared interests one

6:55

was like a runner the other one worked

6:57

in design and like I appreciate those things

6:59

but I don't do those things nor do

7:02

I know much about those things our one

7:04

bridging passion was college basketball during March Madness

7:06

and when I realized this even though we

7:08

loved opposing teams I'm of course a big

7:11

Blue Nation member of the University of Kentucky's

7:13

fan base they are whose ears and

7:15

love Indiana University we had

7:17

this amazing moment where in the

7:19

week before Christmas we started a

7:21

text chain that was like so

7:24

I know you're Jewish but like what are you

7:26

doing over Christmas they're like are you

7:29

asking what we think you're asking I was like

7:31

I think I think we are and they

7:34

said yes and we kind of said alright

7:36

let's isolate you know more for ten days

7:38

and then get together for that Christmas week

7:41

and we'll just cook together we'll play games

7:43

and here's the reason why I think this was

7:46

such an interesting experience to me on this theme

7:48

of isolation it was the

7:50

desperation of that isolation that led

7:52

to a deeper commitment to each

7:55

other because we ended up having

7:57

dinner and playing card games every

8:00

week for five months in

8:02

2021, which is just like impossible

8:04

in New York's social life. Like

8:06

I don't know anyone who sees

8:08

each other that regularly and that

8:10

much. And it meant that

8:12

we basically built like a little family unit

8:14

in the city that otherwise I'd felt so lonely

8:16

in. And so that's what I

8:19

want to think about in this chapter is like,

8:21

when does something get so bad

8:23

or like when do you feel so isolated

8:25

that you're willing to do something you would

8:27

never normally do in order to break through

8:29

and connect with people because

8:31

we need that connection. Casper,

8:34

this probably won't surprise you,

8:36

but the etymology of isolation

8:38

is the same word for

8:40

island. Oh, I didn't

8:42

know that. Once I say it, doesn't it make

8:44

total sense? Oh my God. You're like,

8:46

ah, yes, of course. Isle, right? It goes

8:49

back to the 13th century. Huh. And

8:51

that just makes me think of, you know, the

8:53

way that we think about like deserted islands

8:56

because you're like, what books would you bring? What

8:59

would you do when you're on a deserted island?

9:01

Right. And I feel like

9:03

that was the vibe that we all had at the

9:05

beginning of COVID. We were like, I'm going to learn

9:07

an instrument. I'm going to learn a language. And then

9:09

we all know that like it's

9:11

castaway when you're actually on a deserted

9:14

island, you're drawing a face on a ball

9:16

just to have someone to talk to. Right.

9:19

And so I think that we can romanticize

9:21

isolation and be like, oh my God, if

9:23

I just didn't have emails to respond to,

9:25

if I just didn't have these social commitments,

9:27

I would be free. And we

9:29

know that like, that's not really true.

9:31

We need each other. I always think about

9:33

that when I'm traveling, the further I am

9:36

from the United States, the further

9:38

my sense of what a neighbor is.

9:40

Right. Like right now when

9:42

I live in Andover, if someone lives in

9:44

Boston, I'm like, that's too far to visit.

9:47

But if I'm in the Netherlands and someone

9:49

is from Kansas, I'm like same country. Right.

9:53

And so I think that when we feel isolated,

9:55

it can just remind us of how much

9:58

we need community. Well,

10:02

shall we make other

10:04

people feel less isolated by reminding them

10:06

what happens in this chapter? I

10:10

gotta say, we're getting to the rough end

10:12

of this book. It's a tough read. Well,

10:15

can you count me in please? Yes. Vanessa,

10:20

here comes your 30 second recap, starting in 3, 2,

10:22

1, go. So

10:26

Harry has had a dream that Sirius is

10:28

being tortured and he's like, I need to

10:30

go to him and Hermione's like, um, I

10:32

don't necessarily think this is real. So

10:35

he puts his head in Umbridge's fire and he

10:37

talks to creature in creatures like Sirius is in here

10:39

and he's like, I knew it. But

10:42

Umbridge pulls him out of the fire and is

10:44

like, you're a bad person. And then the

10:47

Great Six gets trapped and Hermione

10:49

is like, oh my God, we

10:52

just gotta tell her about the

10:54

weapon and it's in the forest.

10:56

And you come with me. Hermione

10:59

for the win. Hermione for the

11:01

win. Hermione is a genius.

11:03

Hermione for the win. Catherine,

11:06

are you ready for your version of

11:08

this as your people would say recap?

11:10

Recap. Yes, let's do it. On

11:14

your mark, get set, go. So, um, and,

11:17

and Madame Pramfry is like, oh my God,

11:19

McGonagall is like, had to be transferred to

11:21

some mungos. I would leave if

11:23

there was any way for me to do it. But,

11:25

um, you know, I have to stay here and Harry

11:28

is like, and goes to the office

11:30

and is like, you know, I'm just gonna put my head

11:32

in the fire and is talking to creature in creatures

11:34

like, I want to talk to my mistress. And

11:37

then Harry is freaking out and it's very, very

11:39

bad. Oh God, now I'm

11:41

overwhelmed. And then Hermione is an amazing

11:44

actor and is like, oh, I'm crying.

11:46

Although she isn't. Wow.

11:48

I got really, really overwhelmed just like

11:50

trying to remember everything. So many details.

11:52

I guess there's so many like, it's

11:54

a heavy, heavy, heavy chapter. And we

11:56

have more time to talk about it.

12:00

So when this happened, I didn't even get to the

12:02

point where like Snape is the whole like

12:04

Padfoot moment where Harry gives him this like

12:06

Secret signal and hopes that Snape understands because

12:09

he realizes he's the only last member of

12:11

the order who's still in Hogwarts Yes,

12:14

that's true, too. So Casper we

12:16

obviously see isolation sort of

12:18

everywhere in this chapter, right? This

12:20

is part of the plan. This is

12:23

what fascism does, right? Umbridge wants everybody

12:25

to feel isolated She wants everybody to

12:27

feel as though anybody could tell on you

12:29

at any time, right? like this is a

12:31

strategy this is baked into the system and Right.

12:35

Like we see that just in the fact that

12:37

like McGonagall is gone, right? You know

12:39

Harry usually would go to McGonagall with

12:41

this kind of information either Dumbledore and

12:44

McGonagall and both of them Have been

12:46

cast out of the castle, right? Like

12:48

there are literally Fewer

12:51

numbers of people who Harry can

12:53

go to. Yeah I love that the

12:55

text says there was nobody left to

12:57

tell Hagrid was gone

12:59

Dumbledore was gone and now McGonagall

13:01

too and it just is this

13:04

this growing sense of isolation like

13:06

all of the support systems the

13:08

people who surround Harry The

13:11

authorities that protect him all of them

13:13

are being whittled away. And so he's

13:15

feeling completely isolated now at the end

13:17

of the chapter He realizes that's not

13:19

entirely true because Snape arrives and he's

13:22

like wow There is still one person

13:24

in the order in the Hogwarts castle But

13:26

he you know that that sense of isolation

13:28

is just it's like water rising

13:30

and he's standing on the kitchen table and

13:32

it's coming ever closer and it's about to

13:35

envelop him and Surprisingly Snape

13:37

is the one person who

13:39

counters that trend who expels the water from

13:41

the metaphorical dining room. Yeah, it's

13:43

so interesting Right. How many times have

13:45

I read this book now? And

13:48

this is the first time that I was like, oh This

13:51

is why Dumbledore had Snape there and this

13:53

is why it is important not for Snape

13:56

to be abusive to Neville but for Snape

13:58

to always be sort of like Hugo,

14:01

as a potential Santa Voldemort

14:03

right like this, is why

14:05

we need sniff as a

14:07

proper double agent because we

14:09

need someone to. Be

14:11

careful, please don't suffocate. Long.

14:14

Bottom the paperwork will be bad

14:16

and also for. Harry

14:19

to be less serious. Is this

14:21

it right? leg? The reason that

14:23

the order is gonna come and

14:25

save Harry in a couple of

14:27

chapters is because of this moment.

14:29

because of Snape seeming like someone

14:31

who isn't. On Teams: Dumbledore.

14:34

End I don't know is is like

14:36

oh he. Is.

14:38

Isolating himself for sixteen years,

14:40

he has this. Like keep

14:43

secret. The only

14:45

Dumbledore knows. Wait for

14:48

years, sir. Exactly Moments

14:50

like this. And

14:53

it just makes me think of all

14:55

of the people who sacrifice. Through.

14:58

Isolation, right? Whether it's the like new

15:00

parent up at three in the morning

15:02

to see their kid or rate like

15:04

that first year teacher is trying to

15:06

figure it out on their own, right?

15:09

Like there's so many times for. A.

15:11

Do things like that. Is. Shouldn't have to

15:13

be like this, but like there's real heroism

15:16

and saying like I'm going to choose isolation.

15:18

And ordered him be part of something

15:20

that is so rich as an insight.

15:22

Go Or like you know someone who

15:24

leave their home country and it's like

15:27

an immigrant workers somewhere to earn money.

15:29

Or you know someone right? Scientists working

15:31

in the Arctic for four months during

15:33

the winter outlets? What? Whatever it is

15:36

as ways in which like. there's this

15:38

contribution to the whole through the isolation

15:40

of the individual which is like no

15:42

fun and you're right. Like I had

15:44

started reading this theme with Harry and

15:47

Mind because so. right that snape has

15:49

been so isolated this whole time and

15:51

it's now that you know the i

15:53

really hesitate to say the gifts of

15:56

the isolation but like the fruit of

15:58

it i dunno like You know what I mean? He

16:01

knew what he was doing but it doesn't mean

16:03

that it was easy or even right, frankly. Yeah,

16:05

this is where the payoff comes. Maybe that's the

16:07

right phrase. Yeah. And

16:09

I just love that Harry,

16:12

this is his trust in

16:14

Dumbledore, right? He does not

16:16

truly trust me but he's like, okay,

16:19

I've been told that you are a

16:21

safe space. And even though I don't

16:23

feel that right now, I'm going to

16:25

choose to believe it. I don't

16:27

know, I sort of think about it as

16:29

like throwing out some magic right before you

16:31

die in a Disney movie. Yes.

16:34

Yes. I do think this moment

16:37

is fascinating, right? Harry has just been caught. Umbridge

16:39

is called Snape because she wants more vera to

16:41

serum and Snape's like, it's going to take a

16:43

month to give you this potion. And she's like,

16:45

but I want it now! And

16:47

she's got her like, you know, inquisitorial

16:49

squad there and Snape comes in

16:51

and is like, I don't have more of the

16:53

potion. And Harry realizes as he's leaving, this is

16:55

my moment in which I can communicate that Sirius

16:58

is in the Department of Mysteries. And so he

17:00

says, you know, they have Padfoot in the place

17:02

where he wants the thing. And what

17:05

is so interesting is for me that

17:07

Snape then says, I have no idea

17:09

what he's talking about, you know, that

17:11

kind of thing. But then, as you

17:14

said, he tells Crab, I think, to

17:16

loosen his grip on Neville and

17:18

makes this joke about the paperwork. My read

17:21

of that is that he's saying to Harry,

17:23

I understand what you're

17:25

saying, right? There is no

17:27

other world in which he is

17:29

being merciful to Neville except to

17:31

say to Harry surely. Yes,

17:33

I get it. I'll deliver the message. Oh,

17:36

I think it's both. He hates Neville, but he's

17:38

like worried that Neville is going to pass out.

17:40

And he like has to figure

17:42

out a way that doesn't give away his

17:44

position, but like saves Neville. I

17:46

think it's both. Right? So

17:48

I think that is trust building for

17:51

Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Ginny and

17:53

Neville. Like, look, I'm going to actually

17:55

like Try to save you even as

17:57

I'm going to sound like a jerk. I

18:00

do think it's a flight. never.

18:02

Was about to faint says i

18:05

think it actually sells the desk

18:07

mess with which he has become

18:09

a double agent through the he

18:11

like i can save novel life

18:13

and like not took my hands.

18:16

Are also feel like this is an umbrage

18:18

Iraq comment because I don't think the era

18:20

of Dumbledore had a lot of paperwork. I

18:22

feel like that's an Advertisement Hodgson with all

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19:03

week's episode of Harry Potter and the

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mom a little over a year ago

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to save $10 on

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your first purchase. Umbridge

20:35

brings me to another theme that I saw

20:38

in this chapter which is this idea of

20:40

like the isolation of leadership and

20:42

bear with me here but like it

20:45

was really interesting on this read

20:47

to see how Umbridge gets nervous

20:49

in her office even though she's

20:51

surrounded you know by her goons

20:54

she's actually very isolated and it's

20:56

so it was

20:59

revealing in two moments first when she

21:01

says you were forcing me Potter I

21:03

do not want to I'm sure the

21:05

minister will understand before she's about to

21:08

apply the Cruciatus curse like she's kind

21:10

of talking herself into this because she

21:12

knows actually she doesn't have authority from

21:14

the ministry right she's going out on

21:16

her own and again I want to

21:19

be clear that I'm not supporting this

21:21

isolation of leadership sure but leadership is

21:23

doing things where like you're

21:26

going beyond your authority right

21:28

and then the second one that I

21:30

saw it with Umbridge was when Hermione

21:34

has this incredible like move where she's

21:36

like genius actual genius because she's just

21:38

revealed that like Dumbledore's given them instructions

21:41

to build a weapon she's gonna take

21:43

her to the weapon and like everyone's

21:45

gonna go in a jolly march to

21:47

find the weapon and then she's like

21:50

oh but you wouldn't want other students

21:53

to see it because they might use

21:55

it against you and it just reveals

21:57

Umbridge's absolute isolation that she doesn't trust

21:59

her own created inquisitorial squad

22:01

to see this weapon because

22:03

she doesn't trust them, because

22:05

she thinks they may turn

22:07

on her too. And so

22:09

there's this really revealing experience

22:11

of like, yeah, when you

22:14

take leadership and even when you're taking people

22:16

with you, like there's a

22:18

lot of isolation in that role. Yeah,

22:21

in order to have total power, she

22:23

has had to create a

22:25

completely vertical system, which means she has

22:27

no peers to talk to. And

22:30

this is a problem that we see with Dumbledore

22:32

also, right? Because he has to like, wheel

22:35

and deal to some extent. Snape

22:37

is the only person who knows his full

22:39

plan, but at least Dumbledore has

22:41

Snape, right? Like Umbridge has

22:44

no one. She has

22:46

no one whose opinion she respects who's

22:48

on equal footing. She has no one

22:50

whose opinion she respects, right? That's the

22:52

other thing. Dumbledore doesn't tell

22:54

McGonagall everything, but if he does tell

22:56

her something, he respects her opinion. I

22:59

also feel like Dumbledore and the portraits

23:01

have a very different relationship. Like those

23:03

are his peers. And I

23:05

don't know how much he like of the advice

23:07

he takes, but I can imagine that he engages

23:09

them. I don't think Umbridge talks to any paintings,

23:12

which may say more for her sanity than Dumbledore's,

23:14

but like that she

23:16

you're so right. Like she's she's got her caps

23:18

and that's it. You know, it

23:21

really does remind me Casper of like how

23:23

the best leaders are a part of a

23:25

team. That is something that when

23:28

I am thinking about a leader,

23:30

I also want to look at the people around

23:32

them and be like, who are they surrounding themselves

23:34

with? To me, the leaders who I admire most

23:36

are the ones who genuinely

23:39

want the opinions of people who they consider

23:41

their equals, even if they happen to be

23:43

in the situation where they have a little

23:45

bit more power. And

23:47

you can just see that like

23:50

this is the downfall of fascistic

23:52

leadership. It's that like you're

23:54

completely alone and everyone is going to turn on

23:56

you and isolation doesn't work.

23:59

It just doesn't work. And I don't

24:01

know why time and time again, we

24:03

try it as a society. It works

24:05

in a pandemic to not spread disease,

24:07

but like it is a tool that

24:11

should be used with intention, but

24:13

it is not a strategy. I

24:15

think it's so much to do with

24:17

control as well, right? Like, Oh, absolutely. It's

24:19

out of fear. It gives us this sense

24:22

of, yeah, that we're in charge. And

24:24

of course, life is so much more complex than that

24:26

because Hermione has built a weapon. I

24:30

mean, Hermione, Hermione, here's

24:32

the thing. She's a perfect leader because she is

24:34

isolated in her leadership. Nobody has been able to

24:36

brainstorm this with her, but she has built so

24:38

much trust with the other people in this room.

24:40

She knows they're going to follow her. And

24:43

more than that, they collaborate, right? Like,

24:45

because Harry then says like, no, you're

24:48

like, ah, and so that there's exactly

24:50

what you're saying. Like she's

24:52

inviting people into this world that she's creating

24:54

rather than Umbridge, who's like, I have to

24:57

keep everyone out in order for the world

24:59

to be as I want it to be.

25:02

I love that. That's so insightful. I

25:04

do just wonder though, Caspian, I'm just thinking like,

25:07

just the pressure of always being the one

25:09

who has to think ahead and

25:11

always being the one who has to be

25:13

concerned for everybody because nobody else is going

25:16

to do it. I mean, this is just

25:18

exhausting. Again, I see a

25:20

parallel with Umbridge, right? She talks about how

25:22

she was the one who released the Dementors

25:24

and Little Windging because everyone in the ministry

25:26

kept talking about, oh, we need to stop

25:28

Harry Potter. But I was the one who

25:31

actually went and did something. I came up

25:33

with a plan, I executed it. Like yeah,

25:35

you're seeing both of these women going way

25:37

beyond the top description

25:39

for better and for

25:41

worse, but carrying that

25:43

additional pressure, responsibility. And

25:46

it's exhausting for sure. And

25:48

you know, maybe it's an

25:51

insufficient response to that. But

25:53

what you were talking about with

25:55

having a collaborative leadership model is

25:57

that at least she has the...

26:00

friendships of support that mean there's some

26:02

sense of renewal. And I think it's

26:04

interesting to point to the moment when

26:06

she burns through her own capacity

26:09

is when those friendships fall apart,

26:11

right? Is when Ron disappears. That's

26:13

when she has nothing left because

26:15

it is that collaborative. Yes. Yeah.

26:18

Like community of love and

26:20

support that makes it not right, but at

26:22

least bearable for her to keep doing that

26:24

kind of additional labor. Yeah.

26:28

And I think we really see the, the

26:32

deep risk of isolation in

26:34

Harry, right? Just the fact

26:37

that Harry is the only one who can

26:39

have these dreams. Harry is the only one

26:41

who has this connection with Voldemort as much as

26:43

he talks about it with other people, like

26:46

they're never going to understand. And

26:48

he's right, right? Like the data shows

26:50

that he was able to save Mr. Weasley's

26:53

life because of exactly a vision like this.

26:55

And he's had another one. And

26:57

I just, the fact that nobody else can join him

26:59

in this experience, I think is, is

27:03

what kills serious, right? It's the reason

27:05

why even the support groups can often

27:07

feel cumbersome. Just being around other people

27:09

who have gone through the same thing

27:11

as you is so meaningful.

27:16

Nobody will know the specifics of your pain

27:18

while you're in grief or while you're, you

27:20

know, dealing with a diagnosis

27:22

or, you know, love someone who

27:24

has an addiction or you have

27:27

an addiction, right? So nobody

27:29

will understand you in your specificity necessarily, but

27:31

there is something to other

27:33

people having been where you

27:35

are at least a little bit. And

27:39

nobody has been where Harry's been. And so

27:41

of course he makes this big mistake

27:43

that he's about to make, because he

27:45

has no reason to respect other people's

27:47

opinions on what's going on, right? Like

27:49

you literally weren't there. Like you don't

27:51

understand. What struck me this

27:53

time reading it was there are maybe

27:55

three times that he says serious is

27:57

being tortured right now. It's so. visceral

28:00

for him in a way that for everyone else

28:02

in the room, it's kind of abstract. And

28:05

so he keeps trying to bring them into his

28:07

reality, but he can't for exactly the reason you

28:09

say. And you know, another

28:11

piece of the isolation and Harry I noticed

28:13

in this chapter was when Hermione very gently

28:15

and appropriately questions his reasoning, there's this sense

28:18

of like being betrayed by the closest people

28:20

to you that I think is kind of

28:22

the most isolating experience, right? When you're like,

28:24

yeah, some people are never going to be

28:27

close to me. And so if they turn

28:29

on me, that's fine, right? Like Justin

28:32

Finch, Fletchley, Baxter,

28:34

Bishow or whatever his name is. But

28:38

like Hermione, if you're undermining

28:41

me, like now I'm

28:43

completely alone, right? And so,

28:46

you know, she does a great job of

28:49

weaving this line of like, I got to

28:51

tell you, I don't think this is real.

28:54

And okay, let's do a test, right? Let's see

28:56

if he's home. Let's get into

28:58

the fire and the flu network and see if

29:00

we can reach Sirius at home. And if he's

29:02

not there, then we'll go together. So she's trying

29:04

to create these steps before

29:06

doing something. What she

29:08

would perceive as extremely risky, but for Harry,

29:10

you know, he keeps coming back to like

29:12

he's being tortured right now. Every moment, every

29:15

moment is precious. And

29:17

that's so isolating. I

29:19

would be going absolutely up the wall.

29:21

I'm just like trying to think if

29:23

I thought with complete conviction that you

29:25

were getting tortured and other people were like,

29:27

let's double check. Like now

29:30

this poor child. Yeah. Oh,

29:33

Harry. Vanessa,

29:48

this week, we are going to practice Haverta,

29:51

where we get to ask a specific question

29:53

of the text, which we don't quite

29:55

know the answer to and give our best response and

29:57

go back and forth. And my question is, what do

29:59

you think? Question for you this week is, would

30:02

the inquisitorial squad turn

30:04

on Umbridge? If

30:06

they went to see the weapon, the

30:08

text tells us, Umbridge's bulging eyes rested

30:11

for a moment on Malfoy, who was

30:13

too slow to disguise the look of

30:15

eagerness and greed that had appeared on

30:17

his face. Now, is that because

30:19

he wants to turn on Umbridge

30:21

and run the school in a sort of

30:23

Lord of the Flies situation, or is it

30:26

that he thinks that he would be able

30:28

to be a leader

30:30

in some way outside of the school

30:32

or use it on people like

30:34

the DA? And I

30:36

think Umbridge's fear is actually

30:38

misplaced. I don't think Malfoy would

30:40

want to lead a coup. I

30:43

think we see later in

30:45

book six that that is not his style.

30:48

Like he is not, he's

30:50

not, well, now I'm turning

30:52

myself into Twister Rooze because

30:54

he's isolated in

30:57

his leadership in book six in ways that

30:59

we'll talk more about in the next book.

31:03

But he has been an extremely effective

31:05

playground bully for five years. But

31:08

I think that's, I think he would be a bully with

31:10

it. I don't think he would be an insurrectionist. What

31:13

do you think? Yeah, we have

31:15

no idea what that look is about,

31:17

right? We don't know if it's like,

31:19

oh my God, I have intel and

31:21

I get to tell my dad, right?

31:23

And I get to use this clout.

31:25

Like finally I'm going to have information other

31:28

people don't have. Like we just don't know.

31:31

What I would say is that Umbridge is right

31:33

not to trust him only because

31:35

she hasn't built trust with him, right?

31:38

And just thinking about how great

31:40

my kids are. And

31:42

like, I would trust them home alone. You

31:45

know, I don't love to leave them home alone, but

31:47

like, I trust that we've built enough

31:49

respect and that they understand safety and that even

31:52

if they mess up, let's say I were to

31:54

leave them home alone for a weekend, even

31:56

if they were to mess up and throw a party,

31:58

that if things got dangerous. they would call me,

32:00

right? Like, so even if they're going to

32:03

push boundaries in a way that I wouldn't

32:05

want them to, I trust them, you know,

32:07

to like handle that well. And

32:09

Umbridge has none of that. And

32:11

therefore, she's right not to trust them. Like

32:14

you don't start trusting someone in a moment

32:16

of crisis. Right. I

32:18

mean, arguably, maybe this is like actually the

32:21

olive branch moment, but like it is

32:23

too high risk, right? Like, she has no

32:25

idea. She hasn't tested the trust of this.

32:27

What she has seen is that when Draco

32:30

has handed power, he will take it. And

32:32

so if Draco has handed this weapon, he might take

32:35

it. So I think she's right there to

32:37

take him. It's just her own fault. You

32:39

know what I'm suddenly feeling like is a

32:41

very highly paid consultant because I think I

32:43

have a genius insight. Oh my

32:45

God. We are looking at what's happening in this,

32:48

like head headmistress's office. And

32:51

actually where we need to be looking is

32:53

the broader system because we're looking at Draco.

32:56

Draco's relationship with his father, who's of

32:58

course a rival in the eyes of

33:00

the Dark Lord with Umbridge and Fudge

33:02

and all of these other kind of

33:04

placating characters. And so if we

33:06

go back to where all of this drama

33:08

is coming from, which is Voldemort, Voldemort is

33:10

the ultimate isolating leader. He's like, I'm going

33:13

to go to Albania. And so

33:15

all of the patterns that we're seeing

33:17

throughout this book and frankly, the next

33:19

few books are just like the fascistic

33:21

rule that's coming operates. It's all through

33:23

fear. It's all through manipulation. It's all

33:25

through isolation. And so like this

33:28

little moment that we have in

33:30

this office actually reveals the breakdown

33:32

of the entire Voldemort Alliance later

33:35

in the story. So I think that's

33:37

actually a fascinating example because what she could

33:39

have done is said, I

33:42

don't want to go with like seven of the

33:44

inquisitorial squad. I just want to go with Warrington

33:46

if I don't want to go with Malfoy. Like

33:48

take one, like take the dumb strong one. There

33:53

are other options available to all or nothing

33:55

that like she is just unable to see

33:57

in this moment. And so yeah. I

34:00

think that it's a revealing moment maybe.

34:03

That's what I'm coming to in this

34:05

Roberta. Yeah. So

34:07

my question back to you, Casper, what

34:09

is this Clint and Draco's eye? Why

34:12

is he excited about this? I'm

34:15

thinking this is confirmation for him.

34:17

Harry is as evil as he thinks.

34:21

That Dumbledore is this bad guy,

34:23

right? He has been

34:25

sold this story that he's

34:27

90% sure on because

34:29

he trusts his parents and he is

34:32

a Slytherin through and through, but

34:34

10% of him must

34:36

be like, but I don't know for sure,

34:38

right? I'm gonna go along with this because

34:40

I have privilege and power and that

34:43

serves me. But I'm just

34:45

thinking of the moments where right

34:47

now, I thought I've been a big baby

34:49

about having a cold and then I test

34:52

positive for COVID and it's so validating. I'm

34:54

like, oh, I'm not a big baby, right?

34:56

I have COVID. And sometimes

34:58

this sort of like bad news

35:00

can feel like good news because

35:02

it confirms something that

35:05

we suspected to be true, right?

35:07

It's like the confusion is gonna

35:09

end. Often people will say the

35:11

worst part of a health

35:13

scare is the scare, right? Like once you get

35:15

the diagnosis, you can start making decisions again.

35:18

And I think that part

35:21

of Draco's glint is just like, no, I

35:23

know and I can tell my dad and

35:25

I can't write, I

35:28

can confirm this thing. And

35:30

I think that just like that perverseness is

35:32

something that I can actually really relate to

35:34

where like you're almost relieved to

35:37

have the bad news because then you

35:39

can actually start doing stuff. What

35:42

about you? You know what, it

35:44

strikes me that there's

35:46

multiple people who could be the

35:48

object of this kind of glint

35:51

of greed. But

35:53

I also think it's personal. I think it's personal

35:55

about Hermione. I

35:57

feel like he is getting her in a

35:59

way. that he has wanted

36:01

to for years. Like he was

36:04

humiliated by a woman and

36:06

now he gets to beat her, you know? I think

36:09

there's something very nasty about

36:11

revenge here and I think it's gendered.

36:13

I think we've also just heard the story

36:15

of how Umbridge is talking about,

36:18

you know, going beyond her authority and little

36:20

whinging with the Dementors. I think

36:22

he's starting to think, oh, how could I go

36:24

beyond my authority to get, you know, to get

36:26

back at the Weasley's, but also to get back

36:28

at Hermione specifically, which is really ugly. Yeah,

36:31

this is just like, this is only good news

36:33

for Malfoy, all of this, right? It's a little

36:35

bit chaos monkey, which is fun. You

36:38

know, when you're the person in power, a little

36:40

bit of chaos, kind of hot, right?

36:42

Whereas if you don't have power, chaos

36:44

is terrifying. And then it is... It's

36:47

about his dad, right? He's gonna look good,

36:49

he's gonna have intel. I think you're so

36:51

right, and I think that's why he doesn't

36:54

manage his face, is because there's so many

36:56

layers of how this is great for him.

36:58

Right. He's just like, this is awesome. And

37:00

now we're gonna bring down Dumbledore, right? And

37:02

now we're watching Hermione squeal for

37:05

the first time, right? Like this

37:07

girl who slapped me, we're showing that

37:10

like Gryffindor's aren't actually braver and that

37:12

they'll flip on a dime, you know?

37:14

Yeah. Oh, that's so true.

37:16

Wow. Yeah, no wonder

37:18

he can't contain himself. Yeah. Yeah,

37:21

it's just gleeful. Oh, it's chilling.

37:23

I don't like being with the themes. Well,

37:28

thank you so much for leading the spiritual

37:30

practice and looking at it head on with

37:32

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reading and walking with.com. The

40:35

six voicemail is from Annalisa. Hi

40:39

Harry Potter and The Sacred Text Him. This

40:41

is Annalisa and that is my first time

40:43

calling and since Two Thousand and Seventeen, which

40:45

was the year that I first started listening

40:48

to the So. I realized

40:50

recently that we have now been together

40:52

for the entire span of a full

40:54

Hogwarts education. Over the

40:56

past seven years. This podcast has

40:58

seen me through so much. Grad.

41:00

School Move. The

41:03

Trump Oleksyn. The. onset of

41:05

covert and so many other transition the

41:07

my life. Growing up,

41:10

Harry Potter was my obsession. I.

41:12

Didn't have great social skills of a

41:14

young person, but I was always able

41:16

to find community with like minded potter

41:18

heads on tumbler. At Harry Potter

41:20

trivia night, or at the midnight book

41:22

release parties, Jk. Rowling.

41:25

Sudden and loud anti trans

41:27

messaging was heartbreaking. But.

41:29

Your Podcast has provided me away to keep

41:31

my lifelong connection to what is sacred about

41:33

the series. I. Appreciate the

41:35

will You continue to list the themes of

41:38

love and community. While. Are we

41:40

paying special attention? The characters and the margin?

41:42

And turning a critical eye towards

41:45

representations of gender werewolf. House

41:47

elves. And yes, even the

41:49

failed pedagogy at Hogwarts. Your

41:52

podcast is also provided this former

41:54

Christian a way to experience the

41:57

weekly liturgy. And financial

41:59

practices to. me each week. I

42:02

find so much comfort in the power of this ritual.

42:04

I especially appreciate the time

42:06

you take to honor the loved ones of

42:08

listeners who have passed away. I

42:11

want to send a blessing to everyone involved in this project.

42:14

Vanessa, Matt, Casper,

42:16

Ariana, AJ, Jolie,

42:19

Jackson, Stephanie Paulsell, and

42:22

everyone else who we have gotten to meet along this

42:24

incredible journey. I want to

42:26

bless you for creating this project. Thank

42:28

you for your commitment to showing up

42:30

each week and pastoring this unlikely congregation

42:33

of very earnest fans. I've

42:35

grown so much alongside you these seven years

42:37

and I can't wait to keep listening even

42:40

after all this time. Thank you so

42:42

much. Well that is

42:44

just so lovely. Casper,

42:47

we've only been with each other two years longer

42:49

than we've been with Analisa. Three

42:53

years, three years. Well

42:55

I'm super grateful for this just lovely,

42:58

lovely note. Thank you Analisa. I'm very

43:00

touched and yeah. I love meeting people

43:02

who've been part of this project for

43:05

so long, you know, listening, contributing through

43:07

voicemails and emails and you know comments

43:09

and forums and things and just

43:12

feels like what a beautiful journey to have

43:14

been on at this point for so long

43:16

and I love that we have all these shorthand and you

43:19

know shared references like Polly

43:21

Akos. Always

43:25

in my heart. Casper, it's no time

43:27

in which we get to bless a character in

43:29

this chapter. I am going first

43:32

because I am so excited

43:34

about my blessing. Eight years ago,

43:37

seven years ago when Analisa was first listening

43:39

to us go through book five, I

43:42

critiqued Luna Lovegood for not fighting

43:45

in this chapter and I

43:48

heard from a lot of listeners being

43:50

like you are wrong for all

43:52

sorts of reasons from this is

43:54

a trauma response to this is an act

43:56

of passive resistance you know just

43:58

so many good points and I was excited

44:01

to reread this chapter through the lenses that

44:03

our listeners have given me over the last

44:05

several years since we did this book last time. And

44:08

I just want to thank them because I

44:10

think that they're absolutely right. Luna

44:12

is doing a different form of resistance in

44:15

this chapter. We sort of get

44:17

a list of how everybody is resisting as they're

44:19

being held and Ron is squirming

44:22

and Neville is nearly passing

44:24

out and Hermione is scheming.

44:27

And Luna is being

44:29

Luna and we love Luna

44:31

and her Luna-ness becomes essential for

44:34

the fight. And we just

44:36

need all of us in all conflict. We need all

44:38

of us. We need all of our skills. We need

44:40

all of our gifts. We can't all

44:42

be everything. Not all of us are going to

44:44

be the tallest or the strongest. Not all of

44:46

us are going to be the wittiest or the

44:48

most cunning. We need all four

44:51

Hogwarts houses. And I just want to bless

44:53

Luna for the way that she handles this moment of deep violence. That's

44:56

beautiful. And I also want to thank

44:58

our listeners for always pushing me to

45:01

learn and evolve. And I

45:04

don't go back and listen to old episodes

45:06

because I would be horrified by my former

45:08

thoughts. So thank you all. Thank

45:11

you all for helping to make me better every day.

45:14

What about you, Casper? It's

45:16

really beautiful. I want to

45:18

bless them marauders and

45:20

I want to bless them specifically for

45:22

having nicknames. If you

45:25

know me and you do, Vanessa, you

45:27

know I love nicknames and that I

45:29

desperately want everyone to have nicknames for

45:31

me. And in this

45:33

moment, in this chapter, we see the

45:35

value of nicknames because Harry has this

45:37

other language to communicate meaning with Snape

45:39

by talking about Padfoot, right, as a

45:42

different way to talk about Sirius. And

45:44

so, yeah, I want to bless any

45:46

group of friends that make up like

45:48

little silly in jokes or

45:50

nicknames or, yeah, just ways of

45:52

having a sense of us through

45:54

language. And so, a blessing

45:56

for you and a blessing for Padfoot, Pronx,

45:59

Mooney, and Wormtail. for doing the same

46:01

thing. Casper, next week we are

46:03

going to be reading book five chapter

46:05

33, Fight and Flight, through

46:08

the theme of anger. And I will

46:10

be joined by Matt, but also my

46:12

friend, Neil Young, no relation, who has

46:15

a new book coming out on the

46:17

history of gay Republicans. And I am

46:19

so excited to have him come on

46:21

and tell a story on the theme

46:23

of anger. Just

46:26

a few reminders before we give

46:28

our thanks. We have pilgrimages on

46:30

sale, Wuthering Heights, Northanger Abbey, Taylor

46:33

Swift. You can find out more

46:35

about all of them at readingandwalkingwith.com.

46:38

You can hear our free episodes on Apple

46:40

Podcasts and through our Patreon. This was a

46:43

Not Sorry production. We are a feminist production

46:45

company. Our executive producers are Caitlin Hofmeister and

46:47

even S.S.A.S.L.T. And we are edited and produced

46:49

by A.J. Urama's. Our music is by

46:51

Ivan Peizau and Nick Bult, and we are distributed by

46:53

Acast. Thanks for this

46:56

week's voicemail to Anna Lisa, to

46:58

Ariana Nettleman, Julia Argy, Margaret H.

47:00

Willison, Nikki Zoltan, Hannah Riehach, Matt

47:02

Potts, Courtney Brown, Natalie Falkerts, and

47:04

Stephanie Paul. Thank you so

47:06

much, everyone. I

47:34

did listen to this chapter on YouTube with

47:36

an American who was putting on an English

47:38

voice, and there were so many random words

47:40

that were just mispronounced. So it'd be like,

47:43

don't catch that ball. It's like, no,

47:45

we don't say, just catch. It's

47:48

very enjoyable.