1:16

Tired of ads interrupting your favorite show?

1:19

Good news! Ad-free listening on

1:21

Amazon Music is included with your Prime

1:23

membership. Just head

1:25

to amazon.com/adfreefamily to catch

1:27

up on the latest episodes without the

1:29

ads. And

2:00

I'm Matt Potts. And this

2:02

is Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. Matt,

2:06

our big announcement is our F.R.E.

2:09

flavored bean conversation, our key Patreon

2:11

perk. I'm going to tell everybody

2:13

a story about a time that Angela Lindsberry

2:15

gave me a compliment. This was meant to

2:17

be a humble little topic of our

2:19

favorite school clubs, but you are going to

2:22

tell us a legendary story of a legendary

2:24

actor commending you for your acting. I can't

2:26

wait. And everybody, please review

2:29

us on Apple Podcasts and you can

2:31

also subscribe at F.R.E. there. Well,

2:33

Matt, it is your turn to tell a story and

2:36

you're going to tell us a story on the theme

2:38

of refuge. I look forward to this. What

2:40

have you got for us? Yeah, I'm happy to

2:42

tell a story about refuge. I was thinking about it.

2:44

I felt a little bit ambivalent, honestly, because especially

2:47

in the world today when we have

2:49

people seeking refuge, refugees, you know, my

2:52

story is going to be trivial by comparison. If

2:55

we make a little stop to anemology

2:57

corner, the word refuge comes from the Latin word,

2:59

which means to flee or to run away, fugre.

3:03

And so the re part of it means like a

3:05

place to flee back to. It's almost this idea of

3:07

like a place to withdraw to or retreat to, a

3:09

place of safety when you need to run away.

3:12

And I thought of one

3:14

thing, but in two ways when I thought about refuge.

3:17

So as listeners know, my family and

3:19

I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts now, and

3:21

I've worked in Cambridge, Massachusetts at

3:24

Harvard Divinity School for 10 years. But

3:26

for the first, you know, eight or

3:28

so years that I worked here, I

3:30

lived quite

3:33

a distance away in Cape Cod, Massachusetts,

3:35

in a little town called Falmouth. And

3:37

although the commute was not always nice and

3:40

there were days when I was tired and exhausted and not

3:42

wanting to ride the bus all the way to Cape Cod

3:44

and back when I was working up here, I really thought

3:46

of Falmouth as a place to go. And I thought of

3:48

Falmouth as a refuge from Harvard. Harvard is a place, it's

3:50

a unique kind of kettle of

3:53

pressures and insecurities and

3:56

anxieties and competition

3:58

and so forth. lots of good things

4:00

about it, but there's lots of like, not so easy

4:03

things about the Harvard community too. And I really appreciated

4:05

having a place where I could come up here and

4:08

work and kind of endure all those things. But

4:10

then like, you know, I get on the bus

4:12

and we get on the highway and drive away.

4:14

Usually it was dark because I take the late

4:16

bus home and I could, you know, as time

4:18

passed and as we were driving away from the

4:20

city, I could feel like just stuff

4:22

being left behind, crap being left

4:24

behind until we, I returned

4:26

to our little town on the Cape and

4:28

our little house by a pond in this

4:30

town. Right. And it really felt like a

4:32

place of refuge for us. This is especially

4:34

true because, you know, we'd spend summers

4:36

down there and it was nice to just not be in

4:38

the city and not be at Harvard for

4:40

those long stretches of time where it felt like I had

4:42

a place to withdraw to, to retreat to, to kind

4:45

of turn away from some of the pressures and anxieties that

4:47

I felt when I was at school.

4:49

And in many ways, like that house in

4:52

Falmouth, like the physical location still

4:54

signals a kind of sense of refuge for

4:57

me, but things changed there as well as,

4:59

you know, as I think I've talked about on this

5:01

podcast before, a few years ago there were

5:04

some leadership conflicts at the church where I was

5:06

serving and we had to leave that house really

5:08

abruptly. And we rented a house in

5:11

town a couple of miles away

5:13

from that house. And that was like another kind of

5:15

refuge. What had been our refuge became a place that

5:17

we had to take refuge from. We felt uncomfortable at

5:19

the church. And so we had to leave and give

5:21

up this place that had been this refuge for us

5:24

where our kids had been born and move into this

5:26

other rental house. And even though it was a rental

5:28

house, and if we didn't feel the same sense of

5:30

ownership or belonging in it, it also felt like a

5:32

place we were retreating to. It had this sense of

5:35

safety where we could get a get away from what

5:37

we were turning away from. And the reason I wanted

5:39

to hold these two things up against each other, as

5:41

I think about refuge is

5:43

the first felt like refuge in this sense of

5:45

the town of Falmouth itself or

5:48

the house that we lived in for

5:50

eight years felt like a home.

5:53

And the home was the refuge from all the kind of

5:55

stressful work I was doing up in Cambridge. And

5:57

we were grateful for that. Taking

6:00

example of refuge very much

6:02

felt not like our home, but

6:04

a safe place to get away from what had

6:06

become a volatile situation. One

6:09

of the things I want to think about is

6:11

what's its relationship to belonging? What's its relationship to

6:13

other concepts like home? Home

6:15

can be a refuge from some things, but sometimes if

6:18

your home becomes a place where you're

6:20

not safe, then you need to take refuge from it.

6:24

It just seems like it's

6:26

a very context-dependent word.

6:29

It can overlap with all kinds of meanings and

6:32

either signal comfort or

6:34

distress, safety or danger.

6:38

It's one of the things that makes it an interesting

6:40

word and an interesting word through which to think about

6:42

this chapter. One

6:44

of the things I love about your story,

6:46

Matt, is that what

6:48

was in both places was your

6:51

family, both of your

6:53

refuges because I was

6:55

thinking a lot in reading this chapter about

6:57

how people can be a refuge and

6:59

that all it takes to ruin a

7:01

refuge is one bad person. Like

7:05

Umbridge is ruining this refuge

7:07

of Hogwarts for

7:09

so many students and you

7:11

had a toxic post woman

7:14

who ruined your first house

7:16

in Falmouth refuge

7:18

status. So people can

7:21

both be a refuge, but a person

7:23

can also ruin one. Yeah. We'll

7:26

talk about this in a minute, but I've been thinking in more granular

7:28

detail about the idea of refuge with

7:30

this chapter and had missed the point you just

7:32

made, which was like Hogwarts was Harry's refuge. Now

7:36

it has become this place of persecution for

7:38

him. Part of the reason we see him,

7:40

we experience him as so irritable and so

7:42

impatient, but it's so understandable too because the

7:44

one place where he had felt

7:47

he belonged and was safe is

7:49

now the place where not just Umbridge, but a

7:51

significant portion of the school population is

7:53

ostracizing him and judging him and making

7:56

him feel unsafe. Right? Yeah.

8:00

shift and how easily it can shift and how folks

8:02

with power can affect those

8:04

shifts. So Vanessa,

8:06

now it's time for our 30-second recap. I

8:09

look forward to taking refuge in the

8:13

good nothing. There's nothing there. Can

8:16

I catch you in? That would be

8:18

an honor. Three, two, one,

8:21

go. So Harry is just

8:23

relieved because it seems as though they're going to do

8:25

something to resist

8:27

Umbridge and that feels really good.

8:30

But then Umbridge puts up this

8:32

educational decree and all clubs have

8:34

been disbanded. And it is

8:36

clear that she is going to focus on

8:38

certain clubs that she doesn't like. Like it

8:40

is possible that the Gryffindor Quidditch team is

8:42

going to be disbanded. Fred and George continue

8:44

to sell their stuff and then Sirius comes

8:46

into the fire and is like, hey guys,

8:48

Molly is saying you shouldn't do this, but

8:50

I think it's awesome. Good job. Good

8:53

job. I decided to pretend

8:55

I was calm because really I

8:57

didn't remember what happened in the chapter. That's

9:00

what I started to eat every time is to

9:02

pretend I'm calm and hope that, you know, I will

9:05

get calm at some point. Matt, are

9:07

you ready to give your additional

9:10

recap? Yes. You

9:13

weren't ready for that, were you? No. On

9:17

your mark, get set, go. So

9:20

Harry's all excited about the club and he's like, this is gonna be

9:22

great. And then the decree comes and like, this is awful. And then

9:24

they go to Bins' class and Hedwig shows up and Hedwig is injured

9:26

with a letter. And so they go to find

9:28

Rubble Plank and Rubble Plank's in the staff lounge

9:30

and, and Rubble Plank takes care of Hedwig and

9:32

McGonagall is like, be careful what messages you're sending.

9:34

And then they go to a couple of different

9:37

classes and Trillolli is upset and Snape's always upset.

9:39

And then, and then, oh, and then, and

9:41

then Sirius shows up in the, in the

9:43

fire and is like, I think you should

9:45

start the club. And then the Umbridge Hand

9:48

enters the fire. Oh

9:50

my God. Thank God for you. I forgot

9:53

Snape. I forgot Hedwig.

9:56

Geez, I'm so glad we're a team.

9:59

I'm also very happy. I'm glad for a team. I take

10:01

refuge in our teamwork. Me

10:03

too. So Matt,

10:05

the obvious place to start is the

10:08

way that Enbridge is

10:10

just destroying this

10:12

refuge, at least of Harry and I

10:14

would imagine for a lot of students,

10:17

of Hogwarts, right? This is the title

10:19

of the chapter, the educational decree that

10:21

she is putting up, which is just

10:24

dismantling some of the support systems

10:26

that students have at Hogwarts. And

10:28

I think particularly for fifth years,

10:31

who are doing OWLs and sixth

10:34

years, who are doing any WTs,

10:36

right? Like as school becomes stressful,

10:39

these clubs are the restful

10:41

places. And this is right, like

10:43

this is intentional, right? This is like a

10:45

fascist move to make no

10:48

place safe to make no place

10:50

a refuge. I think

10:52

she is very intentionally breaking refuges. That

10:54

is her goal. Yeah, I

10:56

think absolutely that's right. The way Enbridge

10:59

looks at Hogwarts is that

11:01

it has been a refuge for all

11:03

the kind of wrong people, right? People

11:05

who are sympathetic to Dumbledore, people who

11:07

believe that Voldemort is returned or who

11:09

think that there's something worthwhile

11:11

in the concern and criticism of

11:13

people like Dumbledore, she wants to

11:16

root them out. And she's using

11:18

every tool that she can to do

11:20

it. And it's educational decree number 24, but it's also

11:22

these other strategies she's using, like she's going into classrooms,

11:24

like part of what happens

11:26

when she goes into classrooms is not

11:28

just that she's critiquing these teachers. She's

11:31

also like signaling to

11:33

the children that she has this

11:36

authority over the school and that she's watching everything.

11:38

So it's more than just like irritating

11:40

the teachers and making their lives difficult

11:42

or you know, critiquing their teaching as

11:44

she does Trelawney we learn in

11:47

this chapter. It's also like the

11:49

children feel like she's everywhere and there's no

11:51

space in which they can confide in a

11:53

McGonagall or confide in a teacher they trust.

11:55

She's always present. You never know what day

11:58

she's going to show up in your. classroom.

12:01

You know, that kind of pervasiveness also shows up

12:03

at the end of the chapter, right, where Harry

12:05

is speaking to Sirius through the fireplaces through the

12:07

use of flu powder and, you know,

12:10

muggle reader that I am, we think that

12:12

this is a safe mode of communication up

12:15

until the end of this chapter when Sirius

12:18

looks around and then has

12:20

to flee the

12:23

flu room, I guess, right,

12:25

the flu space and we see Umbridge's

12:27

hand like reaching around like, like it's

12:29

trying to grab him, right. So there's

12:32

this way in which she's making herself ever

12:34

present in every part of Hogwarts

12:37

so no part of the school feels safe. I

12:39

think the other thing we see in this chapter

12:41

is kind of refreshingly

12:43

through the meaning of the Hogshead is like how

12:46

many other students feel similarly,

12:48

like how many other students do think of

12:50

Hogwarts as a refuge, do think of it

12:53

as a place where they can become

12:55

prepared for what might be coming. And

12:58

so it's not just Harry and Hermione and

13:00

Ron who are feeling like Hogwarts is no

13:02

longer a refuge, it's other people too and they

13:04

are actively looking for refuge in each other. Yeah,

13:07

it's making me think of, you

13:10

know, some of the statistics around

13:12

the Stasi in East Germany, right,

13:14

like they had a

13:17

files on nearly six million

13:19

residents of East Germany and the

13:22

population was 16 million,

13:24

right, like one third

13:26

of the country was under active

13:28

surveillance and that gave

13:30

the sense of we could

13:32

all be surveilled, right, like all you have

13:35

to do is surveil one third of people

13:37

in order for everyone

13:39

to feel surveilled and

13:41

then two percent of the population worked

13:44

for the Stasi, so like we all

13:46

statistically know about 300 people, so everyone

13:48

knew six people who could tell on

13:50

you and I feel like this is

13:52

an effective technique that Timothy Snyder who

13:54

is a historian of fascism

13:57

talks about, right, is like to

13:59

make every... everybody feel watched

14:02

is a way to take away

14:04

power even before you actually

14:06

start taking away power. And

14:09

it's just so effective. Draco

14:11

is walking around, you know, throwing

14:13

his limited power around and talking

14:16

about his father and upsetting Neville

14:18

who's gonna lose control more and

14:21

more, right? Like Umbridge just as

14:23

one person in this school is

14:26

so effective at

14:28

making everyone feel unsafe except

14:31

Hermione who's like there's literally no way

14:33

Umbridge knows about this resistance

14:36

we're forming. Don't worry about it. I'm

14:38

magic debt. Yeah. One

14:40

of the things is really refreshing about her mind in this chapter is

14:42

that she is so confident in her own intelligence. I

14:45

know she's just pretty sure that she can stay a

14:47

step ahead. Yeah. Like she's

14:49

seen the ministry as clumsy and

14:51

she's pretty sure she can stay a step ahead of them. And

14:54

it is, I mean, she doesn't feel as threatened as others, but

14:57

you're right. Like it reaches every part of the school.

14:59

Like one of the examples I forgot to mention or

15:01

just didn't think of the first time I was describing

15:04

all the ways in which Umbridge's reaches into everything

15:07

was right when, when Hedwig arrives

15:09

injured and has a letter from Sirius or

15:11

a note from Sirius attached to her leg,

15:14

right? McGonagall, who is the, again, McGonagall

15:17

like Hermione generally has confidence that she

15:19

can stay a step ahead of Umbridge.

15:21

But even in this moment, McGonagall is

15:23

like careful, Harry, right? Like you don't

15:25

know who's reviewing incoming and outgoing mail.

15:28

Just like in previous chapters, McGonagall

15:31

was saying, be careful what you say around

15:33

Umbridge. Like everyone at the school

15:35

no longer feels like Hogwarts is a safe place.

15:38

And Hogwarts was like the safest place.

15:40

It's where you hide the Philosopher's Stone.

15:42

It's where all the safest things were

15:44

placed because Dumbledore was there. And

15:46

now it's none of those things and people are

15:48

feeling it and looking for other ways to find

15:50

it for each other and to build it for

15:52

each other. Yeah, and Hagrid's not

15:55

there, right? Like it's just like really

15:57

being disassembled for Harry. a

16:00

safe place. But Matt, you

16:02

brought up our darling Hedwig, and

16:05

the way she gets treated in this

16:08

chapter is just really beautiful to me,

16:10

right? She arrives at Benza's class, and

16:13

she sort of collapses onto

16:15

Harry, right? And there is

16:17

just this total faith

16:19

and trust that Harry will

16:21

take care of her. Like, she knew that

16:24

all she had to do was make it to

16:27

Harry, and then she would be fine.

16:29

And Harry just is fully

16:31

acting as a refuge, right? It's

16:33

almost like a Kantian ideal of

16:35

how to treat something, right? Harry

16:37

is like, I'm not treating

16:40

you as a means to an end. I am

16:42

treating you as an end in and of itself.

16:44

And all I care about is your well-being.

16:46

And then it's only upon making sure that

16:48

Hedwig is safe and is going to be

16:51

treated by Grebley planks at

16:53

McGomigle's like, oh, Harry, like, also, there's

16:55

a letter attached to Hedwig's leg. And

16:59

that became entirely secondary.

17:01

Hedwig as like someone

17:03

with a mission became

17:05

secondary to Hedwig as

17:07

someone to be cared for, as soon

17:10

as Harry realized

17:12

that what she needed was refuge. And he

17:15

just steps into that

17:17

entirely. Yeah, the one thing

17:19

that Harry has been waiting for basically all summer

17:21

is word from Grumeltschleis, word from Sirius, a word

17:23

from someone who can tell him what's going on,

17:25

or who can just make him feel less alone.

17:27

As you said in reaction to my story, a

17:29

person can feel like a refuge, and Sirius is

17:32

that refuge for Harry. But

17:34

you're right, when Hedwig shows up, the

17:36

only reasonable conclusion is that the note is from Sirius,

17:38

but all Harry cares about is getting Hedwig

17:41

safe. And he does like he

17:43

runs out of class, he asks bins if he

17:45

can leave, and he does, and he finds Grumeltschleis

17:47

in a staff lounge. One thing that's interesting about

17:49

that for me, though, is the text says that

17:51

his first instinct, his first impulse was to run

17:53

to Hagrid, because Hagrid is the one that he

17:56

trusts. And if there's a refuge

17:58

within Hogwarts for Harry, Hagrid's hot. is

18:00

the refuge, within a refuge, right?

18:02

That's the place where he always feels safest, where he

18:04

goes when he needs support and help. Because

18:07

Hagrid's gone, he doesn't have that,

18:09

and so he does the next best thing. And

18:11

again, that just kind of suggests the pervasiveness of

18:14

the fear and the instability

18:16

at Hogwarts now. He doesn't know who's going to answer the

18:18

door when he goes to the staff lounge. Maybe it's Snape.

18:20

Maybe it's Umbridge. He's lucky it's

18:22

McGonagall and Grubblyplank, and so

18:25

is Hedwig, right? And so he's

18:27

able to provide Hagrid what he wants to provide her.

18:30

But again, just Hagrid's absence

18:32

and the persisting sort of

18:35

measures of the new administration are really

18:37

unsettling things, and making this place that had been such a

18:39

place of refuge and safety for him into

18:42

a place of fear and risk. I

18:46

don't know about you, but I feel like

18:48

2024 is fast

18:50

approaching, and I haven't quite had the

18:52

time or space to prepare for

18:54

the start of the new year. That is

18:57

why I am running a program in the

18:59

month of January to unwind from 2023 and

19:01

begin 2024 with

19:05

intention. Living Courageously

19:07

is a four-week program led

19:09

by me all about

19:11

living more courageously in 2024. Every

19:14

session, participants will gather to consider

19:16

a unique theme. Our

19:19

themes will be vulnerability,

19:21

creativity, activism, and self-love.

19:24

Together, we'll close read a short

19:26

text on that week's topic, do

19:28

some self-reflection through a writing prompt,

19:30

and then go into small groups

19:32

for intimate discussions. The

19:34

goal of this program is for individuals

19:37

to come out of January with some

19:39

sort of mantra that can serve as

19:41

a guide for braver living for the

19:43

year. If you are drawn to

19:45

this kind of internal work but need

19:47

help building intention and ritual, then

19:49

this program is definitely for you.

19:52

Head to notsorryworks.com to learn

19:54

more. interrupting

20:00

your favorite show? Good

20:02

news! Ad-free listening on Amazon

20:04

Music is included with your Prime membership.

20:07

Ads shouldn't be the scariest thing about true crime.

20:10

Just head to amazon.com/ad-free true crime

20:12

to catch up on the latest

20:14

episodes without the ads. you

20:19

by Factor. You

20:22

know, listening is one of the great

20:24

things about Hogwarts is the students at

20:26

Hogwarts always have freshly made delicious and

20:29

nutritious meals delivered to them.

20:31

This holiday season, you might also be

20:33

looking for nutritious convenient meals to keep

20:35

you energized on jam-packed days. Factor, America's

20:37

number one ready-to-eat meal delivery service, can

20:40

help you fuel up fast for breakfast,

20:42

lunch, and dinner with chef prepared, dietician

20:44

approved, ready-to-eat meals delivered straight to your

20:46

door. No house elves involved. You'll save

20:49

time, eat well, and stay on track

20:51

with your healthy lifestyle while tackling all

20:53

your holiday to-dos. Factor's fresh,

20:55

never frozen meals are ready in just

20:58

two minutes, so all you have to

21:00

do is heat and enjoy. You'll enjoy

21:02

premium ingredients like broccolini, leeks, truffle butter,

21:04

and asparagus. This November, get

21:06

Factor and enjoy eating well without the

21:08

hassle. Simply choose your meals and enjoy

21:10

fresh, flavor-packed meals delivered to your door.

21:12

Ready in just two minutes? No prep,

21:14

no mess. You know,

21:17

Vanessa, we keep talking about how the students

21:19

are looking for refuge where they can find

21:36

it and looking for it in

21:38

each other, and I think that kind of the

21:41

first unofficial meeting of Dumbledore's army, or what will

21:43

be called Dumbledore's army at the Hogshead

21:45

is a great example of that in this chapter, right?

21:48

Hogwarts doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel like

21:50

refuge, and so they get out of Hogwarts

21:52

and go to Hogsmeade, right? And

21:54

in fact, even the three

21:57

broomsticks, which is their typical kind of gathering place,

21:59

feels too positive. public, too much like they'll be

22:01

seen by folks. And so they turn

22:03

to the hogshead as a refuge. Now we

22:05

learned from Sirius later that that was probably

22:07

a mistake, that three broomsticks was crowded and

22:09

so a gathering there draws less attention because

22:12

of course they'd be gathering there, whereas a

22:14

gathering at the hogshead does draw attention

22:16

because why would a group of 25 or

22:18

so Hogwarts students be showing up at

22:20

the hogshead? Nevertheless, what they're looking for

22:23

is refuge and they choose

22:25

the hogshead because they feel like it's a place

22:27

that they could be safe or rather Hermione chooses

22:29

the hogshead because she feels like it's

22:31

going to be a safe place, a place away from attention, a place

22:33

away from the surveilling eye of

22:36

Umbridge. But what they also find, and it's

22:38

really, really obvious at the beginning of this

22:40

chapter before the decree comes down, is Harry

22:43

finds refuge in these other students. The

22:46

fact that these people showed up, the fact that they believe in him,

22:48

not just that they believe in him, but that they believe

22:50

him. It's almost

22:53

less important I think to Harry that they believe he

22:55

can teach them than that they

22:57

believe what he says is true, right? And

23:00

that's what becomes a refuge for him and it

23:02

just kind of brings us back to the

23:04

thing you said originally, which I think is

23:06

right, which is it's easy to feel safe when

23:08

we feel safe with the people around us. And

23:11

it's hard to feel safe if the people around you don't

23:13

feel safe. Yeah. I

23:15

mean the thing that is interesting about the

23:17

hogshead is that Sirius in this

23:20

chapter is like, dude, that was actually a

23:22

stupid move that was an unsafe place. But

23:25

it turns out that it is a safe place,

23:27

right? The person who overheard them was

23:29

Mundungus who's in the order. And

23:31

then the other person who overheard them was Aberforth

23:34

who we know is going to have Harry's

23:36

back in a big way. And

23:38

so this is actually an important thing

23:41

that Aberforth is going to

23:43

overhear what's going on at

23:45

the hogshead. And so the

23:47

only actual risk that they

23:50

inadvertently took by being in the hogshead was

23:53

that Molly now knows what they're up to.

23:56

And Molly is like, Ron,

23:58

shut it down. So Harry and

24:01

Hermione, I don't have any authority, but by

24:03

the way, shut it down. You

24:05

know, that is no real risk at

24:07

all. So I know

24:09

that it was tactically unsafe of them,

24:12

but it just, it

24:14

happens to be that this was a safe place.

24:16

This was an actual refuge for them. Yeah,

24:18

I think we should just take a moment

24:20

to observe that even though Hermione is corrected

24:22

by Sirius, as always, Hermione

24:24

is actually right. Still right. This is so

24:26

important. The characters that are always still right

24:29

are Chilani and

24:32

Hermione. We take refuge

24:34

in the correctness, the rightness of

24:37

Hermione, even in this moment when it seems like

24:39

she's being correctly corrected by Sirius.

24:44

Yeah, and that, and it just really

24:46

does remind me of your opening

24:48

story that a place can change

24:50

from being a refuge to not.

24:53

The Hogshead felt safe and then it didn't,

24:55

and then it will again. And

24:58

our relationships to places

25:01

change. I feel like that's what

25:03

being a teenager is, right? You suddenly start to

25:05

look around your house and you're like, oh,

25:07

this place is too small for me, right? Like

25:10

we all go through these phases where

25:12

places are safe and then unsafe and

25:14

we can retreat into them and not.

25:17

Yeah, before this chapter, right? The Hogshead is

25:19

most famous as an unsafe place where Hagrid

25:22

got a dragon's egg from a shifty character, right?

25:24

It's a place for shifty characters where students wouldn't

25:26

want to go and then that's exactly why it

25:28

becomes a refuge later. Again, like

25:30

refuge is context dependent. Like the

25:33

place where we need to go shifts depending upon

25:35

the circumstances around that place and what it might

25:37

provide us or offer us. And

25:39

that's exactly, I think, what Sirius is saying in

25:41

his critique of Hermione, right? Which is like what

25:43

you need is safety in numbers and anonymity in

25:46

the three broomsticks, the big popular pub. And

25:49

what Hermione thinks they need is distance

25:51

being away from prying eyes and privacy

25:53

even if they do have conspicuous numbers

25:55

in the Hogshead. One place

25:57

where we have to talk about really quick before we...

26:00

move on just because it's so on point with

26:02

our theme is a place where

26:04

Harry and Ron cannot take refuge, but

26:06

Hermione can take refuge from them. And that

26:09

is the girl's dormitory. In

26:11

this chapter, Ron is like urgently needs

26:13

to talk to Hermione, so like runs

26:15

upstairs to the girl's dormitory and the

26:18

stairs turn into a slide and he

26:20

is shunted back down. And

26:22

we get this explanation from Hermione that it's like

26:24

an old and antiquated spell. And

26:27

I more think that every set of stairs

26:29

should turn into a slide if it's not

26:31

your dorm room. Like you

26:33

just like need a password

26:35

or to knock to

26:37

get into someone else's dorm

26:39

room because everyone needs a

26:41

refuge. Whenever I set our

26:43

community norms when I was

26:45

a proctor RA, the starting

26:47

place was this has

26:49

to first and foremost be a safe

26:52

place. In a perfect world

26:54

that's a fun place, it's a loving

26:56

place, it is a place full of

26:58

joy and silliness. But

27:01

that is all secondary and tertiary to

27:03

it being a safe place. And

27:05

so yeah, every dorm room should have

27:08

a lock on it. I

27:11

mean, one of the things I really love about

27:13

the common rooms at Hogwarts is that there is

27:15

not any obvious adult supervision. Right?

27:17

Like, you know, I mean, like students can

27:19

work on their homework together without worrying about Snape

27:22

wandering through and giving them a hard time.

27:24

Like Neville and Harry and people

27:26

were targeted by teachers like Snape. Feel

27:29

safe going into their

27:31

common rooms and not feeling like they're going to be

27:33

under scrutiny there. It means that the

27:35

students can get up to some hijinks. We see

27:37

Fred and George, you know, imposing vomiting upon themselves

27:41

and doing like stuff that's kind of unsavory. We

27:43

saw them, you know, targeting first

27:45

years earlier in the chapter. But maybe

27:48

because of that, you know, you need some

27:50

spell mechanisms to protect students from other students

27:52

too. And the slide stairs for the girls

27:54

dormitory and I like your proposal, Vanessa, for

27:57

all dormitories where one does not belong.

28:00

That's the kind of refuge protecting policy

28:02

you need in place if you don't

28:05

have Kind of supervision

28:07

apart from prefix who appears within

28:09

the spaces. Yeah, and then

28:12

every dorm room also turns

28:14

into a Playground you

28:16

can reliably climb stairs and be like

28:18

we it's gonna be a slide So

28:34

Matt today we're gonna do Pardes and I

28:36

picked a sentence because I loved it Which

28:38

every once in a while we're allowed to

28:40

do because I make the rules so

28:44

This quote is I

28:47

can't they're not Technically doing

28:49

anything wrong said her

28:52

my knee through gritted teeth And

28:54

so the first step of Pardes

28:56

shut is about the intended

28:58

Meaning of the sentence and we add a

29:01

little bit of context here. So

29:03

Matt, do you mind getting us started? So

29:07

Harry is doing his extra work from Snape

29:09

in potions and he's having a hard time

29:11

concentrating because Fred and George are Inducing

29:14

vomiting and then curing themselves of it

29:16

because they're testing this Joke jinks or

29:18

whatever that they've made and it's

29:20

making it very difficult for him to study and he's

29:22

saying to Hermione Can you please

29:24

go stop this? You're a prefect and

29:27

she says Exactly the

29:30

line that you drew out I can't

29:32

they're not technically doing anything wrong and you should

29:34

know you know If it wasn't clear from the

29:36

way you read it that in the text technically

29:38

is written in italics to signal it She's that

29:41

she knows that they are doing wrong But

29:44

technically she has no authority as a prefect

29:46

to note any rules that they are breaking

29:48

Although I wonder just like isn't disturbing other

29:50

people studying isn't that like But

29:55

what's interesting that I far be

29:57

it for me to correct you ever but

29:59

it's actually Hermione Hermione being upset about

30:01

what the twins are doing that is

30:03

more distracting to Harry, right? He

30:06

could sort of tune out the vomiting but

30:08

Hermione being near him being like, ugh, ugh,

30:10

ugh, is what he like can't ignore.

30:14

And so he's like, just go stop

30:16

them, like please. And so

30:18

what's interesting is what he's actually saying is

30:20

you please stop, right? Like,

30:22

but Harry knows Hermione well enough to

30:24

know like she can't

30:27

stop unless she goes

30:29

and confronts them. So he skips the

30:31

whole like, will you please shut up

30:33

part of it? Yeah, there's a great line before the

30:35

line that you cited that I

30:37

just, you know, just scanned over, but which

30:39

is great. It's Hermione was not helping matters.

30:42

The cheers and the sound of the vomit hitting

30:44

the bottom of Fred and George's bucket were punctuated

30:46

by her loud and disapproving sniff. Yeah,

30:50

Harry found more distracting it says. Yeah, so really,

30:52

it's, it's interesting that he

30:54

can kind of mute the vomiting sounds

30:56

but the sniffs next door are just

30:58

too burdensome. He can't, he

31:01

can't block those. Well, I think that's

31:03

so relatable. The people who you feel closer

31:05

to are more annoying, right? Like, if

31:08

you're on an airplane and someone is like,

31:10

I don't know, being loud behind you, but

31:12

your partner is like

31:14

breathing loudly near you, you're like,

31:17

right? Like, there's

31:19

something about intimacy that allows you emotionally

31:21

to be more annoyed. Yeah. And I

31:23

just love that he's like, I know

31:25

what you want to do. You want

31:28

to go stop them. Yeah. Right?

31:31

Like, the through gritted teeth is what makes me

31:33

so happy in this sentence. So she's like, I,

31:36

she is watching, waiting for

31:38

them to do something technically wrong.

31:41

And they keep not. Yeah, in the lines

31:43

after that, she goes like, over all the

31:45

rules of like, that they can do this, but they

31:47

can't do that. Yeah, she continues. She, she is, she

31:49

is eagle eyed. She's trying to figure it out.

31:52

I love it. So step two is remes, and

31:54

we trace a word throughout the books. What word

31:56

would you like to do, Matt? I

31:59

can't. They're not technically doing anything

32:01

wrong. Set Hermione through gritted

32:03

teeth. I mean, for me, the

32:06

thing that stands out is teeth. Yeah, so where else are

32:08

there teeth? Because you mentioned it as like

32:10

the thing that really captures her frustration. I

32:12

mean, the first thing I think of with Hermione

32:14

is her teeth, right? That she has had her

32:16

teeth lengthened through a magical mishap, and when they

32:18

were being corrected, you

32:21

know, she just kind of let Madame Pompry do

32:24

a little extra orthodontia and had

32:26

them shortened to a length

32:28

that she preferred. So that's the

32:30

first thing I think of when I think of Hermione's teeth. And

32:32

her parents are dentists. Ah, yes. Hermione

32:35

is a lot with teeth. A lot

32:37

with teeth. Tom in Diagon Alley, right, he's

32:39

missing a lot of teeth. He

32:42

has like a toothless grin. I

32:44

mean, I think about like the Basilisk Fang. Is that kind

32:46

of the tooth? You're

32:49

so good. Yes, it

32:51

can kill you, but also it can

32:53

kill horocruxes. That's right. Those are like

32:55

very important teeth. Yeah. Okay,

32:59

so teeth in this are

33:02

like cosmetic, are professional,

33:04

are like a sign of a certain

33:07

kind of life and are

33:09

dangerous, but can also save you. Wow,

33:11

teeth mean a lot in these books.

33:13

Powerful, yeah. So, Josh, Matt, is where

33:15

we think about what lesson we would

33:17

like to pull from this quote. I'll

33:20

read it for you again. I can't,

33:22

they're not technically doing anything

33:24

wrong, said Hermione's regretted teeth.

33:27

I think the thing that you said about like how

33:31

intimacy and irritation go together, that

33:35

often we find things irritating

33:37

among those who are closest to us, that

33:40

we don't find irritating in others who are further away. And

33:42

there's a way in which, you know, Harry is, his

33:45

frustration is directed to the wrong person

33:47

here. I mean, Hermione's sniffling, but she's

33:50

not drawing a huge crowd and vomiting, and

33:52

she's certainly not Snape, a son in Esther

33:55

Homework, right? Like,

33:57

there is some kind of something about putting

33:59

your emotional. energy where it matters and

34:02

protecting those around you from the places

34:05

where your irritation naturally arises. And

34:07

I think I would want to give a sermon that was

34:09

kind of not judgmental about that, just to observe that this

34:11

is how our emotions work and that's okay that they work

34:13

that way, but it's also okay for us to pay attention

34:15

to those dynamics and to respond to them differently. So

34:18

I stole your sermon idea, which leads me to ask

34:20

you, what are you going to preach on then? Before

34:23

I tell you my Drash, I have to

34:25

tell you this was the first time in

34:27

reading these books that I actually saw good

34:29

intentions in Snape. He was teaching a

34:32

strengthening potion and

34:34

Harry didn't learn how to do it. And

34:36

so him saying like go write an essay

34:38

to learn how to do it because you

34:41

might need it. It

34:43

actually seemed like reasonable pedagogy

34:45

poorly explained. But

34:47

that's on my Drash. My Drash

34:49

will be about Hermione

34:52

can do something, she can

34:54

write to Molly and she's

34:57

still not. And

34:59

so I think that my sermon

35:02

would be reflecting on when

35:04

caddling, right? Like

35:08

when telling on someone is

35:11

actually the thing to do. As

35:14

you know, Matt, I just had

35:16

an interaction with someone who behaved

35:18

incredibly unprofessionally and I really

35:20

hemmed and hawed as to whether or not to tell

35:22

their boss. I do not

35:25

cattle on people. Like this is something

35:27

I'm very passionate about. And

35:29

I only asked to speak to managers if it's

35:31

to give compliments. And

35:33

so I didn't end up telling on

35:36

this person, but like I love that

35:38

Hermione has like verbally said, I can

35:40

tell your mother and she's

35:43

not, right? She's not telling Molly. I

35:46

would like to write a sermon that

35:48

I don't quite know yet, but it's

35:50

delineating when it is okay to go

35:52

above someone's head and tell someone with

35:54

more power about what they are doing. Almost

35:57

never. That sentence. So

36:01

Matt, our last step is sewed and we will

36:03

see if you and I throughout this process have

36:05

shaken loose a secret. I

36:07

can't. They're not technically doing

36:09

anything wrong. Set Hermione

36:11

through gritted teeth. I mean I think what shook

36:14

loose for me isn't directly related to this line. It

36:16

has to do with Snape. You

36:18

know, I like this idea of the sewed as

36:20

not the secret. Secret I think was a barrier

36:22

to my trying to figure out what was going

36:24

on with the sewed. The idea of something shaking

36:26

loose, like some way of reading that's just become

36:29

different in reflecting and just thinking

36:31

about Snape and this isn't a defensive Snape. I

36:33

think Snape is going about this wrong. But

36:36

the only person who knows quite

36:38

as much about what Terry's future holds

36:41

as Dumbledore is Snape. And

36:43

something about the way you said, you know, you need to

36:46

learn the strengthening solution because you're going to

36:48

need it. Like even McGonagall I

36:50

think doesn't really realize to the extent that Snape does what

36:52

is going to be asked of Harry and must be demanded

36:54

of Harry. And I'm not sure that

36:56

Snape knows how to be demanding of a student

36:58

in a supportive way. And

37:01

so he's being demanding in an abusive way. But

37:04

I do think Snape is the one person

37:06

who knows or who believes that it's

37:08

all going to come down to this kid. And

37:11

this kid has to be prepared and he's going to get him prepared. Whatever

37:14

it takes. It doesn't mean that Snape doesn't have

37:17

genuine resentment towards him. Doesn't

37:19

unfairly project memories of Harry's father

37:21

upon him. All the things that

37:23

we can criticize Snape for. But

37:25

I think what shook Luke for me

37:28

is that his posture towards Harry isn't

37:30

just mean spirited. Although it is that

37:32

there is also like it all

37:35

rides on this kid and we have to get him

37:37

ready. He has to be better than he is now. Otherwise

37:40

it's all going to be for not. Right?

37:43

Yeah. It just makes me read Snape slightly differently.

37:45

Not necessarily more sympathetically but just with

37:48

more understanding. Yeah. Has anything

37:50

shaken Luke for you or is there a secret that

37:52

has emerged? Just that

37:54

I would be really interested in what it

37:56

would sound like if Hermione, Fred and George

37:58

sat down and had a conversation about

38:00

this, where she

38:03

expressed concerns and they explained

38:06

their position. These

38:08

are characters who care a lot about each

38:10

other and share a lot of the same

38:12

values. And I think that

38:14

they would probably end up on different sides

38:17

of this debate. But I

38:19

do wonder if some mutual understanding, you

38:22

know, could be made if Hermione was like,

38:24

this isn't about rule following for me. This

38:27

is about the safety of first years to me.

38:29

And I want to

38:31

protect them from themselves. They are

38:33

too young. And Fred and George heard

38:35

that and they were like, but this is our chance to

38:38

start a business. And like our mother doesn't believe

38:40

in us. And like, we got

38:42

to take this right. And Ludo Bagman stole from

38:44

us. And this is our shot and we got

38:46

to take it. But maybe

38:48

instead of sniffle, she would sigh. Just

38:51

understanding each other when you do respect

38:54

the other person can make a difference.

38:57

Well, Matt, thank you. Another fun part of

38:59

this. Thank you. Tired

39:03

of ads interrupting your favorite show? Good

39:06

news. Ad-free listening on Amazon

39:08

Music is included with your Prime membership.

39:11

Ads shouldn't be the scariest thing about true crime.

39:14

Just head to amazon.com/ad-free true crime

39:16

to catch up on the latest

39:18

episodes without the ads. This

39:24

week's voicemail is from Audrey. Hi

39:28

everyone at Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. My name

39:31

is Audrey. I wanted to

39:33

bring some light on Luna here. For experiencing

39:35

every year the memory of this horrible thing that

39:37

she was there for, that she observed, that she

39:39

experienced. And I saw that this

39:41

chapter read through the theme of beauty was beautiful in itself.

39:44

But then in her first year, Luna experienced

39:47

these festivals as a shock. She

39:49

obviously gets some sort of explanation about these

39:51

creatures and was most likely thinking at the

39:54

start of her second year, will they be here again? And they

39:57

are. And the fact that she does not really tell anyone about

39:59

this. I

40:01

feel that looking through Luna's eyes, this memory of death

40:03

through those years, she can start

40:05

to see this, yes, maybe as an ugly thing,

40:07

but also possibly as beautiful itself. My

40:11

grandfather, whom I was very close with, died when

40:13

I was 11 years old. His

40:15

name was Chris, but what I called him and what everyone

40:17

called him was Poppy. When

40:20

I was still young, I avoided planting poppies in my

40:22

garden. I avoided anything to do

40:24

with this beautiful flower that reminded me of

40:26

the death of this wonderful man. But

40:29

when I was 14, I think, I was walking with

40:31

my best friend and out of nowhere we turned a

40:33

corner and there was just a field of poppies. It

40:37

looked like it would go forever and seeing them sprung on

40:39

me like that, it was a shock and I wasn't ready

40:41

for it. I cried on the spot,

40:43

but I started taking a different route to school. I

40:45

started walking past this field of poppies every

40:48

day and seeing them there sometimes they made

40:50

me laugh when remembering amazing things a poppy

40:52

used to do and sometimes it

40:54

made me downright burst into tears. The

40:56

garden now, however, is full of poppies and they

40:58

are my favourite flower, with them also representing the

41:00

insects who died in the war. I

41:03

am Australian. This does mean times

41:05

still make me cry, but it also makes me feel like

41:07

I am still connected with him in this way. Reading

41:09

the Harry Potter books, this made me feel

41:11

a deep connection with Cestrels and Lena. For

41:14

that, I did just want to offer a blessing for

41:17

Lena for the first time she went through this as

41:19

a shock, but then also for the other times as

41:21

she possibly grew to love these creatures, see

41:23

them as beautiful through all her pain. Thank

41:25

you so much for another great episode. Thank

41:27

you Audrey for your lovely voicemail and

41:29

for the way you helped us think

41:31

about Lena. And also, I just

41:33

want to express gratitude for the

41:36

loving way you talked about your poppy and

41:38

your experience of grieving him and continuing

41:40

to grieve him. Beauty is

41:42

such a complicated thing. I mean, it seems trite to say

41:45

it's in the eye of the beholder, but

41:47

things that give rise to difficult memories

41:49

or memories of things that we've lost

41:51

can absolutely remind us of the beauty of the

41:53

people that we loved. And in doing that,

41:55

they can be painful and difficult, but that doesn't make

41:58

them any less beautiful. complicated

42:00

and rich things about a thing

42:02

or concept or an attribute like

42:04

beauty. And you did a really great

42:06

job of capturing it and the way you spoke about

42:08

your grandfather and also the way you related it to

42:10

Luna's experience in these novels. So thank you. Yeah,

42:13

I don't have anything to add to

42:15

that. Just thank you so much, Audrey. Now

42:22

is the time in our episode when we remember those

42:24

in our community who have been loved and

42:26

lost. This

42:29

week, we just want to take a special moment to

42:31

acknowledge all the loss of life and all

42:34

the pain and suffering that's happening in the

42:36

conflict in Gaza and in Israel. And

42:39

so today, we just want to remember all

42:41

those who have died, those who are fleeing

42:43

violence, those who are being held hostage, those

42:45

who are mourning and grieving and

42:47

afraid and suffering in that part of

42:50

the world. Thank

42:57

you. Matt,

43:18

we now get to bless characters from the

43:21

chapter. Who would you like to bless? Last

43:24

time I was on the podcast, I blessed

43:26

Professor Grublut Plank and I have to bless

43:28

Grublut Plank again. I blessed

43:30

her for her like sort of steady competence

43:33

last time and the same this time, right?

43:35

Harry shows up with a wounded owl and

43:38

Grublut Plank says, this is my task and

43:40

I will take care of it. There's something

43:42

just very warm, but also very

43:44

professional and direct in Grublut Plank's

43:46

reaction to Harry when Harry

43:48

showed up at the staff room with Hedwig.

43:51

And I for one was grateful that

43:54

she was there and that Hedwig was

43:56

received into Grublut Plank's care. So nothing's

43:59

there. How about you Vanessa? Who are you blessing?

44:01

I am gonna bless the

44:04

Gobstones Club kids As

44:07

soon as this educational decree gets announced some

44:09

kid is like, what about gobstones?

44:13

and I just you know, gobstones

44:15

club is important

44:18

and I Have a whole

44:20

company founded on the belief that

44:22

loving things that other people think

44:24

are silly is Important

44:28

and so I want to offer a blessing for

44:30

the gobstones club I'm

44:32

so glad that you exist Keep

44:34

it up, and I hope Umbridge

44:37

lets you keep meeting because you're doing important

44:39

work Next week,

44:41

we'll be reading book 5 chapter 18

44:43

Dumbledore's army to the theme of possibility

44:46

with the great Jackson bird Just

44:49

one big reminder everyone if you would

44:51

like your holiday gifts to arrive by

44:53

Christmas You just have a few days

44:55

left to go order them go and

44:57

look at our merchandise at not sorry

44:59

works calm We have a sale going

45:02

on you get some extra pins. You can

45:04

find all of our merchandise at not sorry works

45:06

calm This was a

45:08

not sorry production. We are a feminist production

45:10

company our executive producers Caitlin Hoffmeister We are

45:12

edited and produced by AJ Arama's and our

45:14

music is by Ivan Paizawa and Nick Bowl

45:17

We are distributed by 8 cast a

45:19

big thanks to Audrey for your beautiful

45:21

voicemail this week Laura glass Ariana Nettleman

45:24

Julia Argy Margarita tools and Nikki's old

45:26

hand Hannah rehack Courtney Brown Casper Turk

45:28

Isles Natalie Full-Circuit and Stephanie Paul sell

45:30

thanks everyone. We'll talk to you next

45:32

week I

45:58

like how that announcement presumes that everything one

46:00

of our listeners is buying some of our

46:02

merch for the holidays. I love that.

46:04

Who wouldn't? Why wouldn't they? Our

46:06

merch is adorable. Of course.