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If

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we want to hold on to this company, for us, for my kids, for yours, it's me.

1:28

I've never had

1:28

a board meeting before. Alright, wake up

1:30

zombies! Time to activate! Come on!

1:32

Phones! I wanna see some fucking phones! This week, we have a special two-part

1:34

podcast to unpack the series finale of Succession, because there's way too much

1:37

to cover in one episode. So luckily, you get two. In

1:40

part one, I am joined first by our new Swedish leader of Waystar, Alexander Skarsgård. And

1:42

later, the incredible Jeremy Strong is back to discuss his character's ultimate fate and what

1:44

Kendal really wanted when he was a child. So, welcome

1:46

to the show. I'm your host, Jessica

1:48

Rubin. And I'm your host, Alexander

1:51

Skarsgård. And later, the incredible Jeremy Strong is back to discuss his character's

1:53

ultimate fate and what Kendal really wanted when he was

1:55

a child. Later this week, we have a special two-part podcast to unpack the series finale of Succession.

1:58

So, welcome to the show.

1:59

This week, part two will have my extended

2:02

conversation with director and executive producer,

2:04

Mark Milod, who helped shepherd the perfect

2:06

conclusion to this tragic family story,

2:09

and also be sharing my own closing thoughts about

2:11

these kids who just didn't get

2:13

hugged enough.

2:15

This finale, titled With Open

2:18

Eyes,

2:19

was

2:22

of course written by series creator, Jesse

2:24

Armstrong. The episode starts

2:26

with Kendall and Shiv at odds as they prepare

2:28

for the board meeting will decide Waystar's fate.

2:31

Meanwhile, Roman is MIA.

2:33

But in true succession fashion, they soon

2:36

meet up in a beautiful place. This time,

2:38

it's their mom's house in the Caribbean. Shiv

2:41

learns that Mattson has been playing her and isn't

2:43

gonna give her the top job, so she teams

2:45

up with her brothers and they agree to anoint

2:48

Kendall as king. But of course,

2:50

everything falls apart at the board meeting when Shiv

2:52

can't bring herself to actually vote for

2:54

Kendall and she agrees to let the Gojo

2:57

deal happen.

2:58

In the end, Tom is crowned CEO.

3:01

Shiv is relegated to CEO's

3:03

wife. Roman is alone at a bar sipping

3:06

a martini and Kendall stares

3:08

at the Hudson River with his dad's security

3:10

guard looming nearby.

3:12

Nobody wins, well, they all make a lot of

3:14

money. How else could it have ended?

3:17

You are bullshit, you're fucking

3:19

bullshit. Man, I'm fucking bullshit. She's

3:21

bullshit, it's all fucking nothing. Man,

3:24

I'm telling you this because I know it, okay?

3:27

We're

3:27

nothing. Now I get to the

3:29

man who's been

3:31

creating chaos all season.

3:33

He's

3:36

a chaos monkey, as they say in Silicon Valley,

3:39

but maybe he's played the game the best out

3:41

of everyone. We're joined now by

3:43

the new owner of Waystar Gojo, Alexander

3:46

Skarsgard, who plays tech billionaire, Lucas

3:48

Mattson, so happy to have you here,

3:50

Elon.

3:51

I'm thrilled to be here, Kara, thank you.

3:54

Yeah, so your character came out on

3:56

top, congratulations, but I'd love

3:58

to get an idea of who do you think

3:59

think you're playing here who who have you gotten

4:02

your inspiration from and i'm not kidding about elon

4:04

well i'd say that lucas is kind of

4:07

an amalgamation of a couple of different

4:10

tech billionaires and some eccentric

4:13

public figures out there i've drawn inspiration

4:15

from quite a few of them and i've tried

4:17

to steer clear of playing

4:20

a

4:21

carbon copy of

4:22

one you mentioned elon musk of

4:24

course there's some inspiration there but there's

4:27

plenty of others out there that i've looked at

4:29

and drawn some inspiration from mostly

4:32

in tech but not not necessarily only in

4:34

the tech world

4:35

and what were you going for what was the mood

4:37

you were going for with this person yeah

4:40

i wanted something playful

4:42

he's a character who clearly

4:45

doesn't need more money he's beyond

4:47

wealthy and he's set for

4:50

life and for millennia to come for his

4:52

his descendants so i think

4:55

he just loves

4:57

the hustle and the deal the

4:59

process of getting in there

5:01

and rolling up his sleeves and fighting for

5:03

something

5:04

most people said would be impossible

5:07

and there's also something about waystar rococo

5:10

that's so delicious to

5:12

lucas because in

5:15

his eyes he's very much a self-made

5:17

man

5:18

he's not from a legacy

5:20

empire family it's on and

5:22

there's something so deliciously juicy about

5:25

taking down this family dynasty

5:28

so i think i wanted that to be a driving

5:31

force for lucas and and

5:33

again the excitement of of shaking things

5:36

up and he sees himself in

5:38

even though he's incredibly wealthy as david

5:40

versus goliath here it's

5:43

beyond exciting to him to take

5:45

this on it to try this something that no one thought

5:47

would be possible

5:48

he visualizes himself

5:50

as a hand

5:51

grenade and he wants to get thrown

5:53

into these

5:55

banquet halls with senators and

5:57

people in gray suits and just like shake

6:00

things up and have fun and and

6:02

fuck with people.

6:03

So it's like a prankster personality.

6:05

It definitely is. But it also has a malevolent side

6:08

to it. There's every now and then the darkness

6:10

sort of comes over you whether you're describing the blood

6:12

thing. And even then I was like, is he lying?

6:14

Is he not telling the truth? And I've had encounters

6:16

like this.

6:17

Yeah, it's, there is definitely

6:20

some darkness to the character. I don't want to make him too

6:22

frivolous and too happy go lucky and fun.

6:24

I think that is part of who

6:26

he is. It was important to

6:29

keep something underneath.

6:31

There's a sadness there. He touched

6:34

on it briefly in season three, when

6:36

Roman comes to his villa in

6:39

Lake Como and it's this one

6:42

of the most gorgeous villas you've ever seen. And

6:44

he paid a ridiculous amount

6:46

of money for this villa.

6:48

And he tells Roman that he is stressing

6:51

out because he doesn't know which bed to choose

6:53

because he's now bought the most beautiful home.

6:56

And how the hell do you find the perfect bed for

6:58

that perfect home? Right. So he ends

7:01

up sleeping on a hard mattress on the floor,

7:03

even

7:03

though we can buy a fantastic bed

7:07

and sleep well in it. But it's like, is it the best

7:09

bed?

7:10

And there

7:11

was something so interesting about that

7:14

character trait.

7:15

Right. He doesn't seem to enjoy any

7:17

of it at all. No. Like he's

7:19

in these beautiful settings and he's he

7:21

could be sitting in a hovel really.

7:23

Yeah. And it's also like when they go

7:26

to this retreat, he looks out at the beautiful

7:28

mountain range. And he's like, Yeah, it's,

7:30

I guess I'm

7:31

supposed to say that this is beautiful, because

7:34

that's what people say. But like, it doesn't deeply

7:36

affect him. He doesn't deeply move him. He's

7:38

got I try to avoid

7:40

putting him on the spectrum or playing

7:43

leaning into that. But there's

7:45

definitely a hint of attention

7:47

deficit disorder there. He's his

7:50

mind is incredibly

7:52

fast and wanders and

7:54

you need to capture his

7:56

attention within five seconds. Because

7:58

if you don't succeed, then he's

7:59

thinking about something else. What

8:02

was your first wreck when you learned that Lucas was gonna

8:04

win it all?

8:05

Well, I not assumed

8:08

that I had an inclination that it might

8:10

go in that direction, because I didn't

8:12

really see how the siblings would

8:14

end up

8:15

king or queen of it all. And

8:18

when Jesse told me about the Tom

8:20

of it all, I thought that was beautiful

8:23

and really

8:24

selfishly exciting, because I loved

8:27

working with Matthew, and I was so excited to have

8:29

a couple of more nice, needy scenes

8:31

with him, but also something tragic

8:34

about, but in a way

8:36

almost inevitable that the kids don't end up

8:38

as a successor.

8:39

He's filling big shoes in Logan, but

8:42

they also got along, he and Logan. How

8:44

do you think they're similar? I think Lucas

8:46

respected Logan. He thought

8:49

he was a brute and

8:51

an asshole,

8:52

but

8:54

someone who was unfiltered in

8:56

the way Lucas also is, and I think

8:58

he respected that. And

9:01

the fact that he was a shark,

9:03

that he would just go for it and he'd go for the kill, and

9:06

that he was, I

9:08

think Lucas saw himself in Logan

9:10

in many ways, and this obsession

9:12

about the deal and making the deal, and

9:15

it doesn't really matter if it's, we're talking about $5

9:17

or $5 billion. Like,

9:19

you always wanna win. And he was savvy.

9:22

He thought Logan was a very

9:24

worthy opponent, and going

9:26

into season four, there's also a bit of, there's

9:29

an opening there that is exciting

9:32

with a big man gone

9:34

for Lucas, but it's also a bit

9:36

disappointing, I think.

9:38

He wanted to go up against this giant,

9:42

and then he's left with

9:44

the kids who are

9:46

just not worthy, and they're

9:49

clearly, in Lucas's eyes, only in

9:51

this position because of birth,

9:54

being the kids of Logan. So

9:56

he was kind of setting up for this big showdown,

9:59

and then it ended.

9:59

up being like,

10:01

he's fighting the featherweights and he's like, come on. Yeah.

10:04

Yeah. Talk about, what's specifically Swedish

10:07

about Matson? Yeah.

10:09

He keeps talking about

10:12

being typically

10:15

Swedish, but I think it's something, it's

10:17

a card he likes to plate when he goes up against

10:20

neo-capitalist from the United States to

10:22

be like, hey, I'm just a funny Swede. Like,

10:24

I believe in community and equality,

10:27

but I have my doubts

10:29

if he genuinely feels that way. He's

10:31

definitely a hyper-capitalist.

10:34

Yes. No question. He's just like them. He's actually just

10:36

like them in a global perspective. But he also,

10:38

as I said, he has a unique physicality.

10:40

He hunches over people, he jumps on furniture, he

10:43

walks barefoot, he pees in front of Roman.

10:45

How did you think about doing this? He invades

10:47

space quite a bit. And I have had

10:49

this issue with lots of tech billionaires.

10:51

They're always doing yoga in front of me and downward

10:53

facing dog. And it's a very invasive

10:56

space thing. And when you say something, you're like,

10:58

cut it out. They're like, what? What are you talking

11:00

about?

11:01

Yeah, it's unsettling. And

11:03

it can throw people off balance

11:06

a bit, which could be intentional,

11:09

because

11:10

it makes people insecure, because

11:12

you never know where he's coming from, or what

11:14

his agenda is. He's

11:17

a big man, but he's also like, if it's

11:19

a negotiation, then one

11:21

second, it feels like he's your best friend, and he's

11:23

opening up, and he's telling you deep, dark

11:25

secrets. And the next, he

11:27

feels hostile. And then he's

11:29

your buddy again. And it's a way to manipulate

11:32

someone and make someone insecure and

11:34

unsettled in a way.

11:36

Did you you came out you wanted to do this? Was

11:38

it written in the character? Or did you think this was a good

11:40

way to make the other characters unsettled?

11:43

I wanted Lucas to be

11:45

a

11:45

bit of a counterbalance to the Royce

11:48

and visually, in terms

11:50

of his aesthetic, his style.

11:52

They are very monochromatic. And it's

11:54

all very understated. It's

11:57

expensive cardigans with no logos.

11:59

And I wanted

12:00

Lucas to be more of a peacock

12:03

and more eccentric and more out there.

12:06

I wanted to instill that in his personality as

12:08

well and his demeanor and his physicality.

12:11

I wanted something to come in and be very different

12:13

and disruptive and disturbing to

12:15

the kids and to other people around him. Right.

12:18

He doesn't actually do it with Logan. It was interesting.

12:20

You didn't do it at all. He

12:22

didn't because, again, there was a very different

12:24

relationship and it was also something that grew

12:27

as we

12:28

went deeper into season four.

12:31

As I

12:32

got to know Lucas a bit better, a lot

12:34

of it was we came up with on the

12:36

day towards the end of season three

12:38

when Logan and Roman comes to the Villa,

12:41

we were trying to figure out what Lucas would wear

12:44

and we had a couple of different options. I wanted, again,

12:46

something very casual because I thought

12:49

it'd be interesting knowing that

12:51

they would look immaculate. This

12:53

is one of the biggest media deals ever made

12:56

and I thought it'd be interesting if you look, he was very

12:58

underdressed for that. We

13:01

actually weren't able to find the

13:03

perfect clothes for that scene. We

13:05

were looking the morning of and

13:07

we found some casual stuff but nothing that

13:09

really felt great. I

13:12

asked Jonathan Schwartz, the assistant

13:14

costume designer, I was

13:15

like, well, the stuff that I came to set wearing

13:18

is very casual. It's an old worn

13:20

t-shirt and plastic

13:22

rubber slides. Should we try that?

13:25

I actually ended up wearing for that whole, both

13:27

those scenes, basically what I came to set with

13:29

that morning.

13:30

Very nice. The silings of

13:32

Alexander. Are you similar to Mattson

13:35

at all? Are you similar to him?

13:37

I have a little bit of

13:39

some of that erratic nature, maybe occasionally

13:43

a hard time

13:44

staying focused. Mattson

13:46

is a version of myself but like

13:49

wrapped up to 11. There's definitely stuff

13:51

that I can recognize

13:54

in myself.

13:55

He's an agent of chaos but it's also, there's

13:58

something vivacious and fun about. like

14:01

getting that close to the edge and

14:03

staring into the abyss and feeling

14:05

the excitement of that. There's something about that

14:08

that I can recognize. Again,

14:10

not to the same level as Lucas,

14:12

but there's a life force in

14:15

that somehow that is quite exciting

14:17

and thrilling.

14:18

I bet. So speaking of thrilling, the

14:20

relationship with Shiv has been developing

14:22

all season. Your scene's

14:24

really electric.

14:26

What was your process like with Sarah

14:28

Snook? We found each other

14:30

very, very quickly in terms of

14:32

the way we collaborate on set.

14:35

We would basically just

14:37

cold read the scene in the makeup

14:40

chair in the morning once or twice,

14:42

especially if it's a longer, lots of

14:44

banter back and forth. We just like

14:46

run it a few times, but again, like cold read it

14:48

with no emphasis or energy,

14:51

really.

14:51

And then we would just hang out

14:54

and have a cup of tea and talk about

14:56

life. And then we'd save the rest for

14:59

when the camera was rolling. And yeah,

15:01

there was something quite exciting

15:03

about that because she is such

15:05

a phenomenal actor. And my job

15:07

is very easy when I get to work with

15:09

someone like Sarah, because there's so

15:12

much going on in her eyes. The

15:13

nuances, the slight

15:15

changes from one take to the next makes

15:18

it incredibly engaging for

15:20

myself. So I really

15:21

loved exploring that journey

15:24

with Sarah. And it's such a lovely,

15:27

interesting relationship because again, it's, they

15:30

quickly open up to each other. He tells her very

15:33

private stuff very early on.

15:35

And then there's also that almost

15:37

potentially some sexual tension,

15:40

but

15:41

we wanted it to leave some ambiguity

15:43

there. But we didn't want it to

15:46

be like, ooh, sexual attraction here, they're

15:48

going to get it on. We

15:50

wanted it to be slightly off.

15:53

There's some tension there. Is it sexual? Is

15:55

it not? But again, to do it in a subtle

15:57

way.

15:58

Do you think her pregnancy impacts

16:01

how Madsen thought about her as a

16:03

woman and a potential CEO. So you're just mad

16:05

about that drawing, for example.

16:07

No, he mentions

16:10

it in nine when she first brings

16:12

up the idea, the suggestion of a US CEO

16:15

to play Kate Menken. But

16:18

I don't think that, no. And again,

16:21

to your earlier question about him being Swedish,

16:23

I think in Sweden, you get maternity

16:26

leave. So right, he's used to that.

16:28

And I think he's worked a lot. I

16:30

mean, his company's obviously based in Sweden. So he knows,

16:33

I don't think that affects him at all.

16:34

But he is affected by that picture.

16:37

He said he isn't, but then you could see that he was.

16:39

The puppet puppeteer is

16:41

probably bothering him a bit more. Yeah.

16:44

And there's nothing worse than being called a

16:46

puppet, that she's behind the curtain pulling

16:48

the strings. Because to him,

16:51

it's the other way around.

16:52

He's using her for specifically

16:54

what he needs

16:56

to make this deal happen and go through. And I

16:58

think it's important for him

16:59

that people know that,

17:01

that he is the king.

17:03

Yeah, he also picked off the weakest link, really,

17:05

in a lot of ways. And we learned about why he

17:07

won't pick him in a scene with Tom, that is gross,

17:09

boys being boys moment. Let's listen to

17:12

this.

17:12

We're a bit clickety-clickly.

17:15

You know what I'm saying? Right.

17:18

Like a little bit. I

17:22

want to fuck her on a

17:25

little bit. And I think under,

17:28

sorry to get weird, but like, the right

17:31

circumstances. She's

17:34

like, she fucked me too. Is

17:40

this making you uncomfortable? I'm sorry if it's weird. No,

17:42

no, we're men. Yeah.

17:45

No, we're men.

17:47

We're men. Yeah, of course. Tom will say anything.

17:50

Is it weird that he's saying this to Shiv's husband? Or

17:52

why is he doing it here?

17:54

Testing Tom, presumably. Yeah,

17:56

it's incredibly weird. And oh,

17:59

that's. such a lovely,

18:01

lovely time shooting that scene. It's so-

18:04

Tell me why. It's so well written.

18:07

It's so excruciatingly

18:09

uncomfortable.

18:11

I mean, he's telling Tom

18:13

that he wants to fuck his wife. And

18:16

knowing that

18:17

he's holding this little nugget of gold

18:19

in front of Tom's eyes going like, do you want this? Do

18:22

you want this? And he knows that he can say in

18:24

this situation, he can say anything because

18:27

Tom so desperately wants this position.

18:30

He knows that he can really lean into that awkwardness

18:32

and explore it and have fun with it. And

18:35

it's important for him to have a sycophant

18:38

in that position. Someone

18:41

who will be his little lap dog and

18:43

do exactly what he needs. Tom

18:45

is

18:46

proving himself worthy of that as

18:49

an amazing sycophant by basically

18:51

saying like, it's fine, it's fine. I get it, you

18:53

want to fuck her. It's we're men, I can deal with this.

18:55

And now let's go party, let's have a great time. He

18:58

is bothered, but he doesn't let it get to him.

19:01

You can see it in his eyes. Oh, it's very, very,

19:03

very clear that he is. And Matt knows

19:05

that he is, but he gets

19:08

the answer that he wants.

19:10

It's not because he finds shit attractive

19:13

that he doesn't think she can be the US

19:16

CEO of the company. It's not about that. I

19:18

mean, he sends frozen blood bricks

19:20

to his employees. So he does weird shit

19:23

and he's not afraid of things

19:25

being, as he says, clickety clickety. And

19:28

I think he in a weird way thrives on that

19:30

weirdness, the madness of it all. So

19:33

that's something he says in that moment, just to

19:35

see where, how much of a well-trained

19:37

lap dog he will be. You're

19:39

fucking talented. So,

19:43

but also honestly, I'm

19:46

not looking for a partner. I'm

19:49

looking for a front man because

19:53

we're gonna cut shit close to the bone. We're gonna

19:55

get right fucking in there. It's

19:58

gonna get nasty.

19:59

So I need a pain

20:02

sponge when

20:04

I'm under the hood doing what

20:06

I love, you know? Sure. That's

20:09

kind of what I'm after. So would that be a problem? Nah.

20:12

No, man. No. I

20:14

could do it. Logan Mark II. Only

20:17

this time he's fucking sexy. Oh,

20:21

dear.

20:21

Pain sponge, and he's not sexy. I

20:24

need a pain sponge. He got everything

20:26

he wanted from Shiv and then tossed her aside. Tom

20:28

is just another pain sponge, essentially,

20:31

what he's looking for.

20:33

Yeah. He is. There's a very

20:36

small but quite a crucial moment

20:38

in episode nine. Right

20:40

before the funeral in the church, it's

20:43

with Shiv and Greg, and they

20:46

ask where Tom is.

20:48

And Matt's in his standing with

20:50

Shiv and Greg, and he overhears that

20:53

Tom is at work.

20:54

Mm-hmm.

20:56

And again, it's just a moment of Matt's

20:59

in

20:59

registering that. Oh, he's a hard

21:02

worker. He's not at the funeral

21:04

of Logan Roy, the giant, because

21:07

he's at work.

21:08

The fact that he's incredibly

21:10

loyal, as long as you're the top

21:12

dog, he's loyal to you. And

21:14

there's something about that that makes him the perfect

21:17

fit. And it's also a bit of

21:19

a masochist. I mean, the term

21:21

pain sponge is an unusual word, and it's

21:23

beautifully written. And of course, he sends

21:25

blood to Ebba. He's a bit of a sadist,

21:28

so someone like Tom is a

21:30

relationship, because she's pushing back,

21:32

of course. She's been pushing back.

21:34

Yeah, and he says that he's not going to get any

21:36

of that from Tom.

21:38

His assessment of Tom is that

21:41

he's drawn to power and money, like

21:43

a

21:44

flight of cow shit. And so he knows that

21:46

he's going to stay in my orbit as long as

21:49

I'm the son here. But what does he actually

21:51

do, this son? He said he'd be under

21:53

the hood during what he loves to do, but Ebba says

21:55

he's not even a real coder. So what does

21:58

he do? Bullshit is what he does.

21:59

as well. What else does he do? I

22:03

think

22:04

that's also up for debate,

22:06

whether he

22:08

is a genius coder who came

22:10

up with this code on his own,

22:13

and basically made that fortune

22:15

from his own basement as a young tech

22:17

guy. Or if

22:20

Eva's version is more true, we're like,

22:22

well, he got lucky, we handed him this,

22:25

and he ran with it and he took it to market. Potentially,

22:28

she has a point. She's also just

22:30

been, when

22:31

she says that in

22:32

episode seven, she's also just been

22:35

deeply insulted by Matt and where he

22:37

tries to get Greg to humiliate her and fire her

22:40

in front of everyone. So

22:42

there might be some truth to that, but there might

22:44

also not be, he might be better

22:46

than she gives him credit for in that moment.

22:49

Well,

22:49

although it's complex, he's sort of playing this

22:51

genius, as you said, playing this genius guy.

22:53

And, you know, even in real life, people

22:56

don't realize, for example, Elon Musk did not

22:58

start Tesla, other technical people

23:00

did. But a lot of them were better

23:02

at the business of it than the actual

23:04

coding. Yeah,

23:05

he might not be the genius

23:07

coder that he

23:09

believes he is, but he likes

23:11

it,

23:12

what he says to Tom, that he thinks he can

23:14

get back under the hood and do more of that and come

23:17

up with something else, the next big cool thing, whatever

23:19

that would be. I think he's already a little

23:21

bored.

23:22

He also realizes how easy

23:24

it is. He said it's about money and gossip. Money

23:27

and gossip, and, you know, he

23:29

gave it a go and he won.

23:31

And then he's like, well,

23:33

I don't want to run this

23:35

day to day in like the mundane, boring,

23:38

like, board meetings with people

23:41

in gray suits, like, let Tom

23:43

do that. And then he can go off and do crazy

23:45

stuff,

23:46

coding or keep sending blood

23:48

breaks or find another adventure or whatever

23:50

that would be. Well, let's talk about the end where he

23:52

gets his wind to site being a phony to

23:55

some extent, his numbers in India.

23:57

He's obviously a manipulator. He's a bit of a PT Barnum

23:59

kind of.

23:59

of character. In the end, would

24:02

he be better at the job than any of the Roys, really?

24:05

Well, we'll see. Or I guess we won't

24:07

see because this was the fact.

24:10

He would be quite bored

24:12

by the news of it all and the clogs

24:15

of the machine. It's just like,

24:17

that's not his thing. I think it was more about the

24:20

acquisition, the fact that they came

24:22

and they try to

24:23

take over his company and that he could suddenly

24:26

have the leverage

24:27

when the numbers looked

24:28

better for him. To flip it and basically

24:32

consume them and become the bigger

24:34

shark. So my final question

24:36

for you in episode two, Logan told his kids

24:38

they are not serious people. Those words

24:40

have been echoing through the whole season, really. I

24:42

love you, but you're not serious people. Turns

24:44

out he's right. I'm wondering though, is Mattson

24:47

a serious person?

24:49

He's a clown, but he's a serious

24:51

clown. Serious

24:54

clown. I think we'll leave it at that. Thank

24:56

you so much, Alexander. I have to say,

24:59

having known the people you were making an amalgamation

25:01

of, you've done a beautiful job.

25:03

Well, thank you so much, Kerry. I really,

25:05

really appreciate hearing that. It means a lot. And it

25:07

was a pleasure talking to you. Likewise.

25:10

I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Joining

25:16

me now is Jeremy Strong, our very own Kendall

25:19

Roy. Thanks for coming on our podcast, Jeremy.

25:21

Thanks for having me. We really couldn't end

25:23

the series without talking to you, and there's so

25:25

much to get to here. But let's start at the beginning.

25:28

What was your first reaction when you first read the script

25:31

for the last show? I

25:33

mean, I was gutted by it. I

25:36

think I had a vague

25:38

sense of the shape of things. You

25:40

know, I'd spoken to Jesse before the season.

25:43

It's one of those episodes for me

25:46

that almost in miniature contain

25:49

the whole arc of the series. Kendall

25:52

goes, in a sense,

25:54

Icarus flying as close to the sun as he

25:56

possibly can. And we've seen

25:58

this character... attempt

26:00

again and again to sort

26:02

of summit this mountain

26:05

top and fall ass backwards

26:07

down to the bottom of the lowest ravine.

26:10

And so I think I felt

26:12

that the journey through this episode was

26:17

winding the bow back as far as it could

26:19

possibly go to reach its final

26:21

target, which is someone

26:24

who has finally

26:26

lost everything. He's

26:28

lost his father, he's

26:30

lost his morality, he's lost

26:33

in a sense his soul, he's lost his brother

26:35

and sister, he's lost his children, he's lost

26:38

love, and he's lost his ambition,

26:41

which is a defining thing for him in

26:43

his life.

26:44

Which he trades everything for. Did you

26:46

as a person, Jeremy Strong, think he might

26:48

win this time? Kendall really did.

26:50

I think he came as a shock to him that

26:53

he lost.

26:55

I needed to invest,

26:58

I think, in what Kendall was holding

27:00

on to and what Kendall was believing in. Of

27:02

course, my job is to be right there in

27:04

the trenches with him and

27:07

fight his fight, I guess. And so

27:09

until the moment

27:11

when finally I

27:13

go back into the boardroom and

27:15

Frank says,

27:17

you don't have it, Jesse

27:19

set up this incredible dichotomy this season.

27:22

After my father died

27:24

on the roof of that boat, he'd

27:27

written this stage direction. Kendall

27:29

finds himself, he's looking

27:32

down towards the Statue of Liberty. At

27:34

this moment,

27:35

the sharp tip of the spear of

27:37

American history and

27:41

this colossal loss

27:43

that the worst thing has happened and the world is

27:45

off its axis. And at the same time,

27:48

he's still there. And he doesn't

27:50

know if he might

27:52

be a wraith or a super being.

27:55

And this idea of the wraith and the super

27:58

being was something that I think was at

27:59

play the rest of the season. And

28:02

so episode 10 starts with Kendall,

28:04

I think, surmounting his

28:07

super being. He's in ascendancy.

28:10

And when that finally fails

28:12

and the full catastrophe is sort of upon

28:15

him, then at the end he is that

28:17

wraith walking through Battery Park

28:20

and, I think, facing the end.

28:22

After four seasons, how do you prepare to

28:25

say goodbye to this character? What do you think

28:27

about? Part of working

28:29

on this, and for me part of acting in general,

28:32

is sort of clearing your mind entirely

28:35

and trying to make yourself

28:37

as much of an empty vessel as you can.

28:39

So I'm not thinking about much at

28:41

all, but I do feel a sense of

28:44

loss. I mean, I've been so

28:47

occupied with this and so

28:49

come to a point of such conviction about

28:52

Kendall and his needs

28:54

and wants as if they were my own.

28:58

And so it's hard to

29:00

answer that question. There's a sense of

29:03

merging and a sense of letting

29:05

go, which I've done. We finished a

29:07

while ago now, but even I

29:10

finally watched this two days ago

29:12

and it was painful to watch and it's been reverberating

29:15

with me. And I think the thing

29:18

that Jesse did so brilliantly in this episode,

29:22

in a way, I think Kendall,

29:25

he becomes his father in a sense.

29:28

He has the moment of no real person

29:30

involved, which is what

29:32

his father said to him on the

29:35

yacht in Croatia about the caterer

29:37

waiter who died. And

29:39

at the time, it was a monstrous

29:41

thing for Kendall to hear and it sort

29:44

of showed a heart of darkness or at least a

29:46

complete lack of a moral ethical

29:49

core and a kind of terrible immorality.

29:52

And when Kendall says, it didn't happen,

29:54

I never got in the car. He's basically

29:56

willing to cross any lines

29:59

that are left.

30:00

Which he does multiple times this season,

30:03

especially around his own family. One of the things that

30:05

was interesting when you're with this character, because

30:07

of all the characters, it feels like it's you.

30:09

And when I talked to Ciaran, he

30:12

kept saying, I'm not like this guy, I read, I

30:14

have children, you know what I mean? And it's hard

30:16

when people come up to him, it

30:19

feels like this character has a lot of you in

30:21

it, or perhaps not at all.

30:24

I mean, it's a hard question.

30:26

It's a very amorphous thing. I believe

30:29

in the kind of work where you have

30:31

to give something as much density

30:34

and weight and veracity as possible.

30:37

And so I don't know how to do that without

30:40

using parts of myself. And

30:43

in a way, I remember Dustin

30:45

Hoffman, in an interview once talked

30:47

about acting as confessing your deeper crimes,

30:50

crimes of the spirit and the conscience.

30:52

And a lot of what we're exploring

30:55

in this show is shadow

30:58

stuff. So no, I mean,

31:00

my life

31:01

couldn't be more different. I mean, I'm wearing a hat that says

31:03

books are magic from my local bookstore.

31:05

And I also have kids and I'm

31:08

very different from this character. But

31:11

at work,

31:12

I guess when I crossed that Rubicon, Kendall

31:15

is the only thing that matters. And it becomes

31:17

a life and death struggle for me. It's

31:20

interesting you mentioned Dustin Hoffman because he played so

31:22

many very dark characters

31:24

over different parts of his career. And then he played

31:27

Tootsie. Do you ever imagine you'll be

31:29

able to play a

31:30

funny character? Sure. And

31:32

I have done in the theater years

31:35

ago. And it's really every role

31:38

kind of demands different things of you.

31:40

And what this role demanded

31:43

was incredibly heavy. I mean, the

31:45

title of the finale of each season

31:48

comes from the John Barramund poem.

31:51

And that's a poem that essentially

31:54

says, let me get it right. But it's something

31:56

that I've thought about since season one,

31:59

that there's sat down. a thing once on Henry's

32:01

heart so heavy, and I'm

32:03

paraphrasing, but after a thousand

32:06

years, sleepless, weeping,

32:09

Henry could not make good. And so

32:11

part of my job as an actor is

32:14

to attempt to carry that

32:16

weight to put a thing that is so heavy that

32:19

after a thousand years I cannot make good.

32:21

And that's Kendall's journey.

32:23

Well, they're all in some level of pain,

32:25

aren't they? Of course. And the show

32:27

is about a lot of things. And what I

32:29

love about this episode in particular

32:31

and the way we see New York

32:33

City and the financial district,

32:36

there's this amazing convergence that

32:39

is incredibly difficult to pull off

32:42

of collapsing empire and

32:44

kind of a terminal

32:46

state, terminal decadence.

32:48

There's that great Rolling Stone article about terminal

32:50

decadence a few years ago and the dying

32:53

of the light. And he's doing that

32:55

in a country about a country, but also

32:57

about a character. Yeah.

32:59

You definitely got the sadness at the heart of most

33:01

of the people I cover in a lot of ways, many

33:03

of the people, too many of them. So a really

33:05

special part of this finale is Kendall, Shiv and

33:07

Roman coming together at their mom's house. It was a really

33:09

surprising and lovely scene. And there they

33:11

finally have a real heart to heart about who should be

33:14

CEO. Let's listen to a minute of this.

33:16

He

33:16

fucking promised it to me. Promised

33:20

when I was seven. He sat me

33:22

down at the candy kitchen in Bridgehampton

33:25

and he fucking promised it to me.

33:28

Seven years old. Like,

33:31

can you imagine? Yeah. Picks

33:34

or it didn't happen. That

33:36

was messed up. Like

33:39

he shouldn't have done that. No. He

33:42

shouldn't have said that. I'm simply saying he said a lot

33:45

of things and he said them

33:47

to me first.

33:47

Yeah. And he said it to me last. Well,

33:50

that's something. But you have an image of a seven

33:52

year old getting promised a CEO job, which

33:54

he said it's a bad thing for him to

33:56

have done to him because he put that in his head,

33:59

I guess.

33:59

Does this memory change your understanding

34:02

of Kendall did it at all? Yeah,

34:04

Jesse and the writers had written a timeline

34:07

for Kendall back when we started this.

34:09

So I've always had a sense of

34:12

his life, his whole life. This

34:14

memory crystallized in a beautiful

34:16

way in that moment. And we talked about where that

34:18

might have happened. And that

34:21

seemed like a place where that might have happened on

34:23

Route 27 out in the Hamptons, where all

34:26

those kids go. But that moment

34:28

of incongruity of this innocence

34:31

of the candy kitchen and this

34:33

moment where his father says, one day

34:35

this will be yours,

34:37

and that becoming the defining

34:40

drive of his life. I

34:42

remember reading in Chekov's short stories,

34:45

he writes, tell me what a person wants and

34:47

I'll tell you who they are. And

34:50

Kendall has always had this singularity

34:52

of wanting. It's ultimately the tragedy,

34:55

I think, of this show

34:57

is in a sense, Kendall's tragedy. It's the

34:59

tragedy of everyone. But

35:02

we followed him as a protagonist through

35:04

these four seasons.

35:05

But he doesn't even know what he wants.

35:07

It was imposed upon him. No, it's like

35:09

he doesn't even want it. I remember reading one of the

35:11

things I read early on was Andre Agassi's

35:13

autobiography, Open, which is an incredible

35:16

book. And he writes about what he called

35:18

the pain of playing. His father

35:20

put this ball machine, I think called the dragon,

35:23

I might be wrong, in their backyard

35:25

in Las Vegas and just forced him to hit

35:27

balls until he was blue in the face

35:29

and he never actually wanted it. And

35:32

I thought about that a lot. And I

35:35

think that is the tragedy that

35:37

this was imposed upon him and it in

35:39

a sense shaped and misshaped and deformed

35:42

his life. He could never free

35:44

himself from that objective. When

35:47

we first talked about the show, Adam

35:49

McKay and Jesse Armstrong and I, we

35:51

talked about Festin, the Thomas Venerberg

35:54

film, about trauma, that

35:56

this is really about

35:57

family trauma and legacy.

36:00

In the Trojan horse of a show

36:02

about

36:03

legacy media.

36:04

Right, and with a lot of cashmere and planes,

36:06

but go ahead. Yeah, with a lot of cashmere

36:09

and planes. But ultimately, it

36:11

is about legacy media, but it's also about the

36:13

legacy of damage and the legacy of

36:15

trauma. And when those things have been

36:18

scaled up in such a way that

36:20

they have major repercussions

36:22

in the world. I mean, I think episode eight

36:24

for me is in a sense

36:27

a pinnacle of the writing because we

36:30

see this, you know, for personal reasons

36:32

in a way, make a decision that imperils

36:35

our democracy.

36:36

It's really interesting. Trauma is absolutely how I

36:38

cover most of the people I cover. You find the trauma

36:40

and you find everything really much.

36:42

The wound, yeah. It's an addiction

36:44

to want to run this family company. It's not

36:46

good for him. No, no.

36:49

I mean, I

36:50

don't even know if that's a metric that, you know,

36:52

being good for him or, you know,

36:54

success is a virtue in

36:57

this family, the credo of winning.

36:59

And I think at

37:02

the beginning of the season, Kendall says to his

37:04

brother and sister, I

37:06

need something super fucking absorbing

37:08

in my life. Like he needs a Matterhorn

37:10

to climb because if he's not doing

37:12

that, if he doesn't have something, then

37:15

I think he will backslide into

37:17

a whirlpool of negativity, of

37:20

addiction, of suicidality. And

37:22

so the character is always on

37:24

thin ice and needs to

37:26

find something to buoy himself

37:29

and keep himself above water.

37:31

And this is it for now. It's

37:33

certainly been the replacement since he had those addiction

37:35

problems at the beginning of the show. Of

37:37

course, no, it's a substitute of addiction.

37:40

I mean, work addiction is a real thing

37:42

and it's something I even understand. I

37:44

mean, I think many of us do in this culture.

37:47

Why do you think Shivan Roman anointed

37:49

him king? Why did they agree to give it to

37:52

him? What convinces them that he has

37:54

this desperation, this jonesing for this job

37:56

that they don't have?

37:58

I don't even think it's the desperate. I

38:01

mean, maybe I'm deluded as

38:03

Kendall, but I guess I think

38:06

if they look

38:07

at the facts objectively

38:09

and squarely, he

38:11

is actually the person most suited

38:14

for the job. And he did demonstrate

38:17

a level of,

38:18

I would say,

38:20

competence in the Living Plus presentation

38:23

to investors on that Investors presentation.

38:26

While that was, for me also,

38:28

another one of the kind of stations of the cross

38:31

of like either willingness

38:33

to perjure himself and to edit

38:36

words into my father's mouth that

38:38

he didn't say, and the

38:40

cynicism of that presentation, what

38:42

I say in the dressing room to Roman, it

38:45

makes you lose your faith in capitalism, you can say

38:47

anything, but he's good at it. And

38:49

I think they

38:50

recognize, I think they saw that

38:52

they reluctantly crown

38:55

him king. You had a scene of

38:57

you hanging out in the kitchen, making the gross meal

38:59

for a king that they did as kids,

39:01

obviously. What was in the mystery

39:04

smoothie you drank? It wasn't all

39:06

those things, was it? It

39:08

was all those things. Oh yeah. You drank that. It

39:11

was, we did it only a few times and I went

39:13

outside and retched and jumped in

39:15

the ocean and washed it off my hair. And yeah,

39:17

I did drink it. Yeah.

39:18

You really are a method actor. Okay, I'll drink

39:21

it. I wouldn't know how not to drink it. He

39:23

wants it that badly that he's going to drink

39:25

whatever that is. But it

39:27

was disgusting. And the dynamic

39:30

is loose and fun, getting caught by their mother

39:32

late at night. It was wonderful. Was

39:34

that fun to play that side? It was really interesting

39:37

to watch. You know, it was one of those times

39:39

where I felt allowed

39:42

to really just enjoy, you know,

39:44

Kieran and Sarah and I have been through so much together.

39:47

I love them so much. I respect them so

39:49

much. Their work this season has

39:51

just blown me away. But

39:54

often Kendall is at variance

39:57

with them or there is just so much tension

39:59

and

39:59

friction and that's something that I need to take

40:02

on board myself. It also made

40:04

you see that Kendall could be happy. Just

40:07

on the dock, she says, you can smile,

40:09

bitch. And they say, it's happy Ken. And

40:11

in a way, this is what this man

40:14

needed to be happy. And

40:17

so he gets it for a moment. And

40:19

that happiness is carried into that kitchen

40:21

and the sort of night kitchen scene.

40:24

And it was a wonderful

40:26

night. And we wrapped the show at the

40:28

end of that scene. That was the final thing we did.

40:30

Oh, wow. Wow. And

40:33

also there was also a scene where you're floating

40:35

on the dock in the water. You do feel free.

40:38

All these water scenes with you, and I'll talk about the last

40:40

one at the end. They're different. One was

40:42

felt suicidal. The other one, he's

40:44

floating in the ocean. There was another one where you're floating ocean.

40:46

This one, you're floating on the dock. Water

40:49

plays a big role

40:50

in your character for some reason. Yeah.

40:53

The imagery, that's right. In California,

40:56

there were these big swells at Zuma Beach. It

40:59

was winter and going into that

41:01

ocean and floating with a sort of a bullion

41:03

and triumph of that episode.

41:06

And then in Barbados,

41:09

as you say, the freedom. And I was sitting

41:11

on that

41:12

dock. Kieran and Sarah were shooting their scene

41:14

on the beach. And I was sitting there looking

41:17

up at a sky full of stars and feeling

41:20

the alignment of everything for this character.

41:23

And it is, it's as happy as this character

41:25

ever gets.

41:26

He's manic most of the time when he's

41:28

happy. Yeah, I guess you could say that. Yeah. But

41:30

not this time. He's not manic here. That's what was different.

41:33

No, in a sense it tells me, or I

41:35

discovered through doing it, that

41:38

actually this is the thing he needs to

41:40

make everything right in his life.

41:43

And so they give that to him and then they take

41:45

it away from him. It's

41:46

a beautiful moment. Connection doesn't last long,

41:48

as you said, in True Succession faction, it blows

41:50

up in the boardroom. The big final scene with you, Shivan

41:52

Roman, is intense. Let's listen to

41:55

a quick moment of that.

41:56

Here's the thing. I am like a cog built

41:59

to fit. Only one machine. If

42:02

you don't let me do this, I mean,

42:04

it's the one thing I know how to do. Well, it's not all

42:06

about you. I know. Yeah,

42:09

you are not the most important one. I

42:11

don't think I am. Yes, you do. You do. You do. You

42:14

fucking do. You do. How

42:17

do you get into the raw emotional space with

42:19

the scenes? There's so many of these very emotional

42:21

scenes. Fundamentally, that's the writing.

42:23

That's just Jesse Armstrong's just

42:26

astonishingly brilliant writing,

42:28

because he's writing with

42:30

such understanding of human beings

42:33

and their complexities and fallibilities

42:35

and pathos, and there's such

42:37

a subterranean level underneath the

42:39

writing.

42:40

Right. Was this fault between the three of them bound

42:42

to happen? The vote tinges on Shiv,

42:45

especially, and she wavers. Why do

42:47

you think that is?

42:48

I think they just can't tolerate

42:50

seeing Kendall win,

42:55

in a sense. I think what they perceive

42:57

as his sort of grandiosity

42:59

and self-importance and putting his

43:02

feet up on dad's desk,

43:05

they can't stomach it. It's what Shiv says.

43:07

I mean, I think

43:09

it's also something I say to Shiv

43:12

in episode eight. Maybe the poison

43:14

drips through. When I'm trying

43:16

to, I think, wrestle

43:19

over the choice to make in

43:21

the election. I think that

43:24

they perceive that that is, in fact, true.

43:26

Is that payback for that decision he made

43:28

from her?

43:29

I think there is payback happening, and

43:31

maybe they think that Madsen is the lesser

43:33

of two evils. Maybe they think I

43:36

will be the Mad King. It

43:39

knocked the wind out of me. It felt

43:42

unjust, and the character after

43:44

that piece we just listened to sort

43:46

of loses it in a way we never

43:48

have seen him lose it, which also reinforces

43:51

that, in fact, Logan is my

43:53

middle name.

43:55

It reinforces that that is innate,

43:57

and that is part of his DNA. says

44:00

he's not very good at the job. Well, I

44:02

don't believe her, and I don't think she means

44:04

that. I think he is good at the job, and

44:06

I think he could do

44:07

it. So let's listen to that. Let's listen to

44:10

that fight. Shiv, don't do

44:12

this. You can't do this. No. Absolutely

44:15

not, man. Absolutely not. No. Why?

44:18

No. Why? I

44:20

love you. Really? I love

44:22

you, but I can't fucking stomach you. This

44:25

is fucking disgusting. It's disgusting.

44:27

It's disgusting. You're disgusting. You're fucking

44:29

heartless. It's fucking nuts.

44:32

It doesn't even make any sense.

44:35

I'm the eldest boy. I

44:38

am the eldest boy. And

44:41

you know, it mattered to him. He wanted this

44:43

to go on. Well, I mean, she's the bloodline, though.

44:46

What? I'm the bloodline. No,

44:49

I just mean if you're going to play that card, dad's

44:51

view was yours weren't real. What the fuck

44:53

did you just say? Well, just not real. Real.

44:57

Well, that's just what dad said. I'm just saying what dad

44:59

said.

44:59

Well, don't say it, you fucking cuck.

45:03

Wow. Whoa. Kids aren't

45:05

real? What do you think is happening there?

45:07

Why do that right there? Yeah,

45:10

what's happening there? I mean, I think it's

45:12

just the release of

45:15

years of vitriol and

45:17

animosity and

45:19

jealousies and envy. And I think,

45:22

you know, Jesse doesn't really believe, I think

45:26

philosophically, I don't think he believes that people

45:28

change.

45:29

I think he's put us all in a kind

45:31

of doom loop. And

45:34

that's what we're also seeing happen here. And

45:36

certainly for Kendall, the ending of the

45:38

series is a doom loop. It's

45:41

not that dissimilar from

45:43

the ending of episode six in season

45:46

one, where he attempts a coup, makes

45:49

it to the boardroom,

45:50

leaves the boardroom having

45:52

lost, and

45:55

walks into traffic on Broadway.

45:58

And I think Jesse's making a strong statement.

45:59

of profound point that people

46:01

don't change, that they are kind of stuck in this doom

46:04

loop. And the same thing about his role as

46:06

a dad. He claims he wants full custody, he's never

46:08

with the kids. Maybe he's scared of becoming

46:10

like his father?

46:12

Yeah, I mean, you know, Nate says to

46:14

him at the tailgate party, you're

46:17

not Logan and that's a good thing.

46:19

There's a spike in him, in his

46:22

heart that divides him. He

46:24

both wants to be his father

46:27

and doesn't want to be his father, wants to be his

46:30

own man.

46:31

And he does, I think

46:33

have goodness in him, or did,

46:35

you know, I mean, I think the scene at

46:37

the end of season three, when

46:39

we're sitting at the table in Italy, and

46:42

I say to my father,

46:44

you've won because you're corrupt and so

46:46

is the world. And I'm better

46:48

than you. I think he believes

46:51

that. And maybe he's even standing on

46:53

moral ground at that point.

46:55

But by the end of season four, he's lost that high

46:57

ground completely. Lost it completely.

47:00

And she also, besides Roman bringing up the

47:02

kids, she brings up the dead

47:05

kid from earlier seasons.

47:06

That's right. Well, that's what I mean by arriving

47:09

at a no real person involved moment. The fact

47:11

that I can just in a very

47:13

kind of blithe way, that that never happened.

47:16

And it was just something I said, and I never got in the car.

47:19

And one first thing you do is when you grab his

47:21

head, Roman was abused by Logan, Kendall's

47:23

now doing what his father would

47:25

do. I think that is what's happening in that

47:27

scene. It's a kind of traumatic reenactment.

47:30

You know, the language, the love language that

47:32

we had as children was essentially a language

47:34

of neglect and abuse. And

47:37

so we were not given nurture as

47:39

children, you know, our mother, I find

47:41

the character of our mother almost

47:43

more painful than our father in some

47:45

ways. I would agree. And so

47:48

this is the way that we saw our father

47:51

express himself through violence

47:53

and through abuse and through

47:56

sort of negation. And so

47:58

this is what we're all doing to each other.

47:59

other and it's sort of this is

48:02

the fruit that they've born. Right. So

48:04

after everything falls apart, Roman tells Kendall

48:06

we are bullshit. What does Kendall think

48:08

about that? Because it sounds an awful

48:10

lot like Logan's line earlier in the season, you are

48:12

not serious people, which is one of my favorite

48:14

lines of all time.

48:16

Well, I'll tell you in that room, I

48:18

certainly couldn't accept that. And it's

48:20

why I had to keep going.

48:22

Walking back into the board room was

48:24

something that just happened. It was meant to end with

48:27

Roman and I in the room, but

48:29

I still felt that Kendall had something

48:31

left in the tank. And so Mark

48:34

Mylod, who's just such a brilliant

48:36

director and a brilliant collaborator and Jesse,

48:40

I just kept going and they followed me with the

48:42

camera and we went back into the room

48:44

and you see this sort of,

48:46

I mean, for me, it's an extinction level event that

48:48

happens. And I don't think we

48:51

used it in the show, but

48:52

sometimes Jesse would give people off camera

48:55

lines. Mm-hmm.

48:55

And I think Frank said to me,

48:58

you

48:59

don't have it, you never had it.

49:01

And when Frank said you never had it,

49:04

which we don't hear in the show, but which I heard

49:06

in the room, that did something to

49:08

me that just stopped me. It

49:10

just stopped me in my tracks and I

49:13

guess the life just went out of me. Yeah.

49:16

Do you think he does realize he's bullshit?

49:19

I think he realizes maybe

49:22

not that he's bullshit, but that he never had

49:24

it, that this entire

49:27

thing was a fallacious thing

49:31

and was a fantasy and the whole

49:33

thing deflates and he goes

49:35

from the super being to the wraith.

49:38

So let's talk about that final scene, speaking of which

49:40

Tom gets the CEO gig. Shiv is relegated

49:43

to the wife status. Roman is the Roy

49:45

doing photo ops for the Gojo deal.

49:47

Well, in Roman also, I love that Roman ends

49:50

at this bar where you sort of feel

49:52

like he's going to be okay. That's what I felt,

49:55

like he's finally liberated from it.

49:57

Yeah, agreed. This last shot,

50:00

want you to go into it, the final shot with Colin in the

50:02

background again by water. I felt like he was

50:04

going to jump. Well, in one

50:06

of the takes, I climbed over the barrier.

50:10

I sat on the bench and it always

50:12

to me

50:13

felt like there was nowhere, there's

50:16

no coming back from this.

50:18

And I looked at these waves

50:21

and it was so windy that

50:23

day and so cold. And

50:25

there was some piece of metal clanging.

50:29

And it was this terrible sound. And

50:31

I sort of couldn't bear it. And I

50:34

stood up and

50:37

walked slowly to the barrier

50:39

that was set up there and climbed over

50:42

it. And I didn't really know what

50:44

I planned to do. And the actor

50:46

playing Colin saw me and ran and

50:50

stopped me from doing it. Do

50:53

you think that was a good choice? I think

50:55

actually him sitting there and not knowing was very...

50:57

I mean, I'm sure Jesse's choice is better. And

51:00

in a way, I think you see the intentionality

51:04

in the character. I mean, you said you felt like

51:06

he was going to go in and I did. I

51:08

tried to. I've been sitting with

51:10

that poem for a long time

51:12

and there's something in the bare-im

51:15

in poem. I sent Jesse

51:17

and Mark a text after we filmed

51:19

the scene. They sat down a

51:21

thing once on Henry's heart so heavy, if he

51:24

had a hundred years and more and weeping sleepless

51:27

in all them time, Henry could not make good. Starts

51:29

again always in Henry's ears,

51:32

a chime and that chime, the

51:35

clanging came out of that poem.

51:37

And then Jesse wrote back immediately,

51:40

and this is Jesse's mind,

51:42

a passage from T.S. Eliot's The

51:44

Wasteland Part Four, which is called

51:46

Death by Water. Oh, wow.

51:48

You guys are doing the heavy pause, but go ahead.

51:51

There's a line in it that says, entering

51:53

the whirlpool. And Jesse wrote back

51:56

to me entering the whirlpool. Wow. And

51:58

that's what the ending is for me.

51:59

Even if he doesn't physically

52:02

jump. So it's not a happy ending

52:04

from your perspective. It is a completely

52:07

tragic ending from my perspective. And

52:09

this idea, you know, the title, is

52:11

it with open eyes? Is that what

52:14

the episode is called? Yeah. Those

52:16

eyes are not Kendall's eyes.

52:19

Those eyes

52:21

in the poem

52:23

are the eyes of this reproachful

52:25

face in his mind that is

52:27

staring back at him.

52:30

It's all the things he's done. The

52:32

cater waiter who he killed. It's

52:35

all the people that he has betrayed.

52:37

I can't answer who

52:40

that face is staring back at him ghastly

52:42

with open eyes,

52:44

but it's all of it. So could

52:47

there be a happy ending for Kendall? He's free of

52:49

the company. I think

52:51

that Jesse maybe intended

52:54

that in the writing.

52:55

You know, the sense that Kendall has

52:57

lost, but maybe he's free and

53:00

maybe he's going to keep walking.

53:03

I guess I felt

53:05

with everything in my body that there is no coming

53:07

back from this.

53:09

Oh, wow. I would agree with you on that. I have

53:11

to say the others definitely Roman

53:13

and Chivas decide is already plotting

53:16

right there in the car. She was just plotting

53:18

in the car.

53:18

Yeah. I think that they'll be able to keep

53:21

going. I think that Kendall

53:23

has just slowly mortgaged off everything

53:26

and has nothing left to live for.

53:28

Then you've sold to a clown to that

53:30

jumping that Alexander Sarsgaard did at the

53:32

end. He's fantastic. Yeah,

53:35

it's terrifying. So last question.

53:37

Now that we've seen all of succession, I know it sounds

53:39

like a broad question, but what does the

53:42

show mean to you thinking back on it?

53:44

That's a hard question. The

53:46

show is Shakespearean

53:50

in scope. It's

53:52

like a swifty and satire, but

53:54

it is a profound

53:57

document and tapestry of life

53:59

and

53:59

contemporary life at this moment

54:02

in our country and in our history, having

54:04

been a part of something that feels central

54:07

and meaningful.

54:08

That's something that

54:10

I feel very proud of and grateful for. What

54:13

does it mean? I mean, there's something that I've

54:15

thought about since we started making this

54:17

and that I've said, there's this thing

54:19

I read that

54:20

Jung said that where love

54:23

is absent, power fills the vacuum.

54:26

And to

54:27

me, that's what the show has always been about.

54:30

And I don't think Jesse is

54:33

offering any kind of prescription,

54:36

but

54:36

that to me would have been the thing

54:39

that could have helped and maybe even saved

54:41

these people. And the vortex

54:44

of power,

54:45

which is drawing them all in

54:47

and which is drawing us in as a nation, is

54:51

a clear and present danger.

54:53

And that's what it means to me.

54:56

Fascinating. I do have one more last question. What are

54:58

you going to do next? Ron-com? Drew

55:00

Barrymore? You and Drew Barrymore and Ron-com.

55:03

A silly Ron. I am going

55:05

to do, I'm looking at it right in front of me, I am

55:08

going to do

55:09

Ebsen's play, An Enemy of the People

55:11

on Broadway.

55:12

Oh, wow. That's a

55:14

light one. Yeah, another romp in the park.

55:17

So I'm going to do that next year with my friend Sam Gold, who's

55:19

an incredible director on Broadway. And that's

55:21

not for a little while. I'm going to take a break now. I

55:24

feel pretty

55:25

spent. That's amazing.

55:27

Wow. Anyway, thank you so much for joining

55:29

us, Jeremy, and congratulations on an incredible

55:32

finale.

55:33

Thank you so much. It's great to talk to you.

55:39

I want to thank my guests today, Alexander Skarsgard

55:42

and Jeremy Strong. It's hard to say

55:44

goodbye, but thankfully, even though succession might

55:46

be over, the podcast is not quite

55:48

over yet. Part two of our super

55:50

sized podcast finale, which is

55:52

fitting for a series like succession

55:55

features director Mark Mylod. It's

55:57

coming later this week. And trust me, you want.

55:59

want to miss it. The official

56:02

HBO Succession podcast is a production

56:04

of HBO and Pineapple Street Studios.

56:07

Our executive producers at Pineapple are

56:09

Barry Finkel and Gabrielle Lewis. Our producers

56:11

are Elliot Adler, Ben Goldberg and Noah

56:13

Camuso. Our editor is Darby Maloney.

56:16

Engineering and Mixing by Hannes Brown. Production

56:19

music is courtesy of HBO. Special

56:22

thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Ken Ureas

56:25

and SaveOnSlater at HBO podcasts.

56:27

And I am, of course, Kara Swisher.

56:33

Want to know the most upsetting part of the finale

56:36

to me? Hearing the phrase, face

56:38

eggs. It was something about eyes.

56:40

They just kind of, oof, revoked

56:42

me. Eyes? Like human

56:44

eyes we all have? I don't like to think of all these

56:47

blobs of jelly running around in your head. Face

56:50

eggs.