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1:21

Welcome to the

1:21

HBR ad podcast from Harvard Business Review.

1:24

I'm Alison Beard.

1:32

No industry has had more impact

1:34

over the past few decades. than technology. Tech

1:37

companies have changed the way we live, work, and

1:39

interact with each other. They've helped

1:41

us in a lot of ways, but they've also

1:43

created some big problems. The

1:45

question now is whether they're going to direct

1:48

all the brainpower they have and wealth they've

1:50

created toward the biggest challenges

1:52

we face as society or just

1:54

keep selling us more stuff. My

1:56

guest today has had a front row seat to this

1:58

entire evolution, and she no doubt

2:00

has some thoughts on where it's going next As

2:03

a journalist, she started covering the tech industry

2:05

in its infancy. She's interviewed,

2:08

some would say grilled, all of its biggest

2:10

players. She co founded her own

2:12

conference and media company first within

2:14

The Wall Street Journal and then independently. Now

2:17

she's a popular podcast her new

2:19

show just dropped, and she's here to talk

2:21

to us about the history and future of the tech

2:23

industry, as well as her own career.

2:25

A big welcome to the woman once described

2:27

as the most liked and feared

2:29

figure in Silicon Valley. Journalism,

2:32

entrepreneur, and host of on with

2:34

Cara Swisher. Cara Swisher. Cara,

2:36

welcome. Hi. Thanks for helping

2:39

me. So

2:41

as I just said, you have been covering the tech

2:43

industries since close to the beginning.

2:45

What drew you to it back then? when

2:48

you were a young reporter and you could have focused

2:50

on anything. You know, I was super intrigued

2:53

by the idea of a medium, especially

2:55

the Internet that was a network

2:57

of information. I was at communications.

2:59

I went to Georgetown Foreign Service

3:01

School. I was very interested in propaganda. And

3:03

so I was super interested in sort

3:05

of the next iteration of communications. And the

3:07

minute you saw the worldwide web using

3:10

a NetScape Browser, a Mosaic Browser,

3:12

you could tell how you could download anything

3:14

across far great distances and and

3:16

you would change media and commerce

3:18

and

3:18

everything else. And so you wanted to be a part

3:20

of that.

3:21

Yeah. It was like meeting Thomas

3:23

at a when he went to the light bulb kind

3:25

of thing. Like, that to me, it was that important.

3:28

And I got to really know the people who created

3:30

it and so that's a huge opportunity.

3:32

you know, I had covered retail at the Washington

3:35

Post right before that and I saw what was happening

3:36

to the retail sector

3:38

and classifieds and all their

3:40

businesses. And so, you know, I kept thinking,

3:42

well, if you know, if this

3:44

than that, that was my area specialty

3:46

at Georgetown was the scenario building.

3:48

And so if there was gonna be a digital

3:51

classified, that's the end of newspapers. because

3:53

that's one of their big things. Same thing with retail.

3:55

If everything was delivered, there was

3:57

a company ever that would be created and

3:59

Amazon just didn't exist this point or

4:01

maybe just did and was just selling books.

4:03

But if you could do that and iterate it, you could

4:05

see you could sort of carry out the business model.

4:07

Same thing with phones. I was very into cell phones.

4:10

And I thought, wow, what happens to all the industries?

4:12

Most people who are incumbents, they can't imagine

4:14

their death, and I could always imagine people's

4:17

death. of things, I guess. You

4:19

know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that's how I

4:21

that's how I do entrepreneurship now. I changed.

4:23

I just moved to podcasting

4:23

eight years ago because I was like,

4:26

I'm not done with

4:26

this print stuff, even though it was

4:28

online, I was done with print, and then I put

4:30

print online, and then I was like, I'm done with this. I

4:32

think people are going this way. So I think

4:34

about that almost constantly. And

4:37

as these companies, the whole industry,

4:39

evolved, what most

4:41

impressed you and what most disappointed

4:44

you? I mean the very invention of

4:46

it. I really do appreciate entrepreneurship quite

4:48

a bit. And so I I'm always impressed by

4:50

the persistence of entrepreneurs even

4:52

despite of failures and things like

4:54

that. And I I do think, you know, a lot

4:56

of these things have been world

4:59

changing, like the idea of a worldwide

5:01

network of information. Think about that. This just an

5:03

astonishing vision. What

5:05

I'm less impressed with is how they conduct

5:07

themselves while they're building it, which

5:09

is to say is they don't think about consequences,

5:11

and I spend lot of time talking

5:13

about consequences and thinking what's the

5:15

worst case scenario here and they never

5:17

do. They can't possibly tolerate the

5:20

idea of problems. They're not

5:22

adult enough to say, okay, if I do this,

5:24

what about this? And I think even, you know,

5:26

Robert Oppenheimer understood what

5:28

a bomb meant, and he said that I've become deaf,

5:30

something like that. He understood it. So I

5:32

think if you're an inventor, you should understand

5:35

the impact of your creation and they don't

5:37

do that and it either it's because they're, you

5:39

know, always have to be optimistic for

5:41

some reason or they're just want money and

5:43

they want growth over everything else. so I

5:45

think their lack of care is really

5:47

disappointing. So what are some of the

5:49

biggest negative outcomes

5:52

that you worry about. I started

5:54

writing about it very early as the social

5:56

media misinformation, a diet of really

5:58

bad information creates a populace

6:01

you know, I don't think the populace was very

6:03

informed before, but now it had too much

6:05

information. And so, you know, people

6:07

or conspiracy theories now have buffet

6:09

of, you know, before they had little bits and pieces.

6:11

It tends to make people even more

6:14

worse than they were. I think the addictive

6:16

nature of these technologies and the necessary nature

6:18

is a problem. You need to use them to survive

6:20

in the modern work world. And at the same time,

6:22

the addiction and the isolation that

6:24

it creates using digital things.

6:26

really problematic. I think the

6:29

the power of the couple big companies that

6:31

I'm always worried about big companies. I don't care

6:33

if they're trains or planes or automobiles. This

6:35

same thing in tech companies. There's too few of them

6:37

that you wield too much of the power. And that always

6:39

it it hurts innovation and it hurts the

6:41

consumer. in the wrap up

6:43

show for your last series Sway,

6:46

someone asked what's one thing you

6:49

would change and you first said you were

6:51

shut down the Internet and I think I guessed

6:53

as I was listening because I would make your

6:55

job sort of hard. But then you corrected yourself

6:57

and you said, action you would go

6:59

back in time and make it better.

7:01

So how could it have been made better?

7:04

Well, I was using a phrase because one time

7:06

when when they were worried about Russian

7:08

involvement on the Facebook platform. I

7:10

think it was Cheryl Sandberg. So what do you do? I

7:12

said just shut it down for a day and figure it out

7:14

because they were they were doing stuff in real time and

7:16

giving answers that weren't clear, and they

7:18

kept having numbers. I'm like, where'd you come up with that

7:20

number? You just made it up. You don't know. You know, you

7:22

haven't looked in every closet of your of your

7:24

platform. And so I was like,

7:26

just shut it down and see what where the

7:28

problem is. Right? Just close the house and

7:30

cover it with and and fumigate it,

7:32

and then we'll move on. of course, they're never

7:34

gonna do that because they make too much money. But

7:36

it would be very hard because I think one

7:38

of the things that happens with has

7:40

happened with these Internet companies is they

7:42

sort of encouraged juvenileization of their young

7:44

entrepreneurs. And so they were never wrong.

7:46

They never could make a mistake. The

7:48

money was too good. I know how you

7:50

could prevent them for being more thoughtful,

7:52

grow less. I don't think that would be a very welcome

7:55

message back if even if you travel back

7:57

in time. And so I don't know how

7:59

you make someone think about

8:01

consequences when they're in a headlong

8:03

rush to wealth and power. What

8:05

role did you see venture capitalists

8:07

play in pushing the tech industry

8:09

to where it is today? What you

8:11

know, they're interested in only one thing, which is to make

8:14

money and onto their next deal. And so I

8:16

think they completely allowed these tech entrepreneurs

8:18

to do whatever they want. It's like raising

8:20

children on endless amounts of sugar and then

8:22

wondering why they're diabetic. They're not

8:24

interested in anything but making money. They

8:26

aren't. They just aren't. And so whenever that's the

8:28

case, do they care if it's unsafe? What do

8:30

they care if it's this? What do they care? Just

8:32

gets in the way of their their vibe. They

8:34

love their vibe. Yeah. If I had a

8:36

dime for

8:36

every time I've heard, I'm a bummer. I'd really

8:38

be rather wealthy. I had a Bitcoin.

8:40

If I had a Bitcoin for a beer, I'd still be

8:42

wealthy even if it's down.

8:43

I really love SynX. So it's it's

8:45

all good with me. of all of the tech

8:47

founders and CEOs you've interviewed,

8:49

you know, you obviously

8:51

don't have high opinions of a lot of

8:53

them. Mhmm. Some of them, but who's leadership do you

8:55

think Merritt's the most respect? Well,

8:58

Apple's the most powerful company right now, period.

9:00

And I like Steve Jobs even though he was

9:02

a real He was a lot. You know, he's a lot. There's a lot of

9:04

negative qualities. He had, but everybody has

9:06

negative qualities. But he I

9:08

thought he was very passionate and challenged

9:10

himself and others. And even

9:12

when you disagreed, you could have

9:13

a big argument with him and he actually had

9:15

one, which he wasn't scared of

9:17

defending his ideas. even when he was

9:19

wrong. He wasn't scared of doing it. I

9:21

had code conference this past couple weeks

9:24

ago. I like everyone I invited. I actually

9:26

picked people because it's my last code conference.

9:28

of people I like. Like, I like Andy Jassy

9:30

of Amazon. I think he's really interesting

9:32

and smart. I like Sundar Pichai

9:34

of Google of Alphabet. I

9:36

like Evan Spiegel of Snapchat. I like

9:38

Tim Cook. I mean, he's not my

9:40

friend. None of these people are my friend, but I like that.

9:42

I think they're smart. I think they're engaged. I

9:44

think they all allow you to

9:46

challenge them and and and

9:48

listen? And do you think that those people

9:50

are moving the industry

9:52

in a better direction, a more positive

9:54

direction? yeah, you know, it

9:56

depends on the company. I think look, Facebook's

9:58

down this doesn't work

9:59

very much right now. So I think it's three hundred

10:02

million, two hundred million is down a lot. That's

10:04

because Apple's been the

10:05

regulator of Facebook with its ad transparency

10:08

efforts. So that's not good. I mean, I'm glad

10:10

they're doing it, but I'm I wish it was our

10:12

government that was doing it not Apple. means

10:14

Apple's really powerful

10:14

and can make or break companies. That's not

10:16

something that's fair. Mhmm. Not even Facebook,

10:19

it's not fair. Right. I'd

10:20

love

10:21

to talk a little bit about that like

10:23

feared thing that I mentioned. Mhmm.

10:25

How did you -- So, ridiculous. --

10:27

manage to maintain good relationships with all

10:30

these people who were very,

10:32

very tough on. You know, these are guys

10:34

with very big egos. Why didn't more

10:36

of them just like, stop giving you access?

10:38

Oh, I don't know. I think I

10:40

have used this before, but smart people like

10:42

smart questions. I'm not unfair.

10:44

Right? I'm not mean. I don't think I'm snarky.

10:47

Every now and then, I get one off, but so

10:49

good. I think I know a

10:51

lot. I think I've I've spend a lot of

10:53

time understanding them. And I think

10:55

they appreciate that in the back of their

10:57

minds. I think nobody likes doing talking points

10:59

all day. Right? Who likes that? You feel like

11:01

so stupid? I think they like good discussions. I

11:03

do know I talk to everybody. I think

11:05

that's helpful to them because they don't know if like,

11:07

they're surrounded by people who they

11:09

pay. And therefore, they're not getting great information.

11:11

And so if I say something, they're like, what did

11:13

you? I don't know. Where did you hear that? You know what I mean?

11:15

So I think they like that. Tough

11:17

is okay as long as you're fair, I think

11:19

most people or most adults are fine

11:21

with that. I don't know an adult who doesn't

11:23

appreciate honesty. And

11:25

I'm I when I'm wrong, I say it. I'm

11:27

not that wrong that very often, honestly.

11:30

But I I tend to spend a lot of time studying

11:32

it, and I think they appreciate that.

11:34

And then sometimes some of them just like to see if they

11:36

can go around with me, but all the all

11:38

the insecure ones never show up, you know, like

11:40

the I'm trying to get in every Peter Teal

11:42

forever. We've had some very

11:44

good discussions though over the years, but And

11:46

Zuckerberg hasn't done an interview with you

11:48

in a long time. Right? Not well,

11:50

now in his case, I'm I'm no.

11:52

I two thousand nineteen, two thousand

11:54

eighteen. I would give him an out. Every

11:56

time he shows

11:56

up for an interview with me, it gets worse. The

11:59

first one was the

11:59

sweating, which was not his

12:01

fault, really. It was having classic

12:02

panic attack, I think. And

12:04

we

12:04

were asking very easy questions about

12:07

privacy. It wasn't like we were beating on them.

12:09

And the second one I was very

12:11

adamant about what they were doing around

12:13

Alex Jones, and he shifted he

12:15

himself shifted the conversation to Holocaust and

12:17

Iers. I didn't do it. He walked

12:19

himself into a wall on that one and banged

12:21

his head. Yeah. You know, I think I make I

12:23

unsettled him for some reason, so I don't I

12:25

can't imagine. He's not been done I I'm

12:27

always, like, third times a charm, Mark, you

12:29

know, like, that I don't think he

12:31

feels. He said, why should he? Like, he doesn't

12:33

care. One thing that I do think comes across in

12:35

all your interviews more so in some than

12:37

others, but just you are very tough and you

12:39

do ask very direct questions, but there's also a

12:41

level of empathy. You know, you

12:43

do understand where

12:45

people are coming from, and that's

12:47

very clear when you're talking

12:48

to someone like Monica Winitzky or

12:50

Maria Rosa, but you

12:52

also seem to have it for the people

12:54

for whom most of us don't feel a lot

12:56

of empathy. Yeah. I did say

12:58

guys before what I was talking about,

13:00

miss mostly guys. Most of the people you talked

13:03

to, So what's your view on

13:05

diversity in tech? Has it gotten better?

13:07

I think it has not. No. It's gotten

13:09

worse. I mean, I used to at least two

13:11

women's CEOs or positions of authority. I don't

13:13

I think there's Lisa Sue. I'm

13:15

trying to think who else? there

13:18

should be at least three.

13:19

Though it just keeps? No. She's

13:22

CEO of YouTube, which is not really under

13:24

the alphabet, so no. It's not

13:25

a separate company. Yeah. I mean, I like Susan

13:27

very much. I think she's very smart.

13:29

I

13:29

guess Gwen shot well at SpaceX,

13:32

but Elon really runs the show. Right? So and

13:34

he controls everything. So

13:36

It's really and she's very smart too. So

13:38

there's no. No. And people of color,

13:40

no. No. There's the woman who

13:42

runs Zukes. but she's

13:44

now bought by Amazon, so she's not running the

13:46

show really. So yeah. No. It's no.

13:48

Even at the lower ranks, you haven't seen

13:51

improvement. I sort of sort of

13:53

mental white mental run the whole show,

13:55

really, with an occasional, you

13:56

know,

13:57

know

13:58

other kind of man there,

13:59

but not really. Yeah. It's not but certainly

14:02

not people of color. It's certainly not women.

14:04

Yeah. There's some people in in strong

14:06

positions

14:06

of already. There's some very strong AI researchers

14:08

at Google for sure. You know,

14:10

Sheryl Sandrick sort

14:11

of carried the weight for all these women, but then

14:13

she got tarnished in in all the controversies

14:15

around that. Yeah. But she was the COO. She

14:17

wasn't the CEO. She was the COO.

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Okay.

15:43

So let's talk about the future. Mhmm.

15:46

What are the big tech companies

15:48

that you talk to focused on now?

15:50

And does that differ from what you think they should

15:52

be focused on? Well, I think it's it's

15:54

an opportunity for tech to really reinvent itself

15:56

right now. I spent the last day

15:57

or my code conference talking about climate change

15:59

tech. I brought in John Dorr who I've covered

16:02

for decades on other things. He was one

16:04

of the first investors in Amazon and Google

16:06

or in the early days. very legendary venture

16:08

capital. He's spending all his time on deployment

16:10

change tech. Same thing with Bill Gates. It's really

16:12

interesting. Same thing Elon is

16:14

quite involved too. Elon Musk

16:16

So I I'm really interested in climate change

16:18

tech, so I think we'll just push a little reset button

16:20

and focus on the existential crisis we

16:22

all face. I've written several columns

16:24

saying I think this is the most important area

16:26

for young entrepreneurs to go into. You

16:28

could make a lot of money. And by the way, if you

16:30

don't, we're kind of finished. So it's

16:32

not fixing the Internet.

16:34

It's let's solve the big challenge.

16:36

I think we had to fix the Internet. We have

16:38

to make for. We've got to regulate it more. We've

16:40

got to have privacy, more

16:42

protective privacy as we move into the

16:44

Metiverse. If we ever do, that's a big

16:46

if. by Meta, but we'll see. I

16:48

think you have to put things in place

16:50

before they happen. You can think of all the

16:52

disasters. I just interview Bob Iger from

16:54

Disney with a former Disney CEO and, you

16:56

know, he was like, can you imagine all the

16:58

things, the bad things that could happen in a

17:00

metaverse versus a regular Internet, A3D

17:03

live version of the Internet. Oh, you you know, you

17:05

gotta be thinking about where abuses could

17:07

happen. You gotta be thinking about people's health

17:09

and addiction and young people, especially

17:12

depression and things like that and

17:14

that impact just the way we think about

17:16

cigarettes. Think about use of social media

17:18

and other things. Continue to do that. But at the

17:20

same time, really, it's sort of like

17:22

thinking about electricity. It sort of runs the

17:24

show no matter if we didn't have electricity, none

17:26

of this would work. Right? And

17:27

so the climate, if we don't have the

17:29

planet, it really hardly matters if you're

17:31

on a dating service. If the oceans

17:33

cover the land. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

17:35

Physical. and the analog tends to win in

17:37

the end, I would say. And

17:39

one of the biggest criticisms of tech

17:41

is that it did focus on things like dating

17:43

and food delivery. and cars at

17:46

any time instead of what we

17:48

knew was a very big problem. Well,

17:50

this is where the money was made. But, you know,

17:52

these things, you know, it's like anything

17:54

else these things

17:54

boil slowly and you'd be like the frog and

17:56

the water

17:57

thing. Yeah. You know, I think we it's it's

17:59

a very long term and very difficult

18:01

problem, and so why not deal with food delivery

18:03

services. Right? I mean, I don't find that

18:05

weird. I find it just normal if you

18:07

make money in the here and now. I just think we

18:09

have to really bring our greatest minds together

18:12

been convinced by a lot of

18:14

technologists. And it's not only a technology solution,

18:16

by the way, it's going to be a political

18:18

solution, a a policy solution.

18:21

a mindset solution of what our world is

18:23

gonna look like. I mean, I it was interesting I got

18:25

an argument with, I don't forget some right

18:27

winger. They tend to try to bate

18:29

me, which never works because I'm it just doesn't. I'm

18:31

like, I'm a professional Twitter, please

18:34

don't. And so they were talking about the

18:36

Democrats don't believe in the future. And I said, I

18:38

had four children. And I said, how many do you have? And he

18:40

said, none. And I said, I believe in the future much

18:42

more than you do. I said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You

18:44

don't

18:44

have children. But if I have children, it means I believe

18:46

in the

18:47

future. Yeah. So what is some

18:49

of the coolest stuff that you're seeing

18:51

in

18:51

the Climate Tech arena? What are people

18:54

working on? lots

18:55

of things. We had by the way, that guy acknowledged that, and he said,

18:57

I'm really sorry. I just was doing the typical

18:59

productive team thing. Right? And then he thought about

19:01

it. He said, of course, you do. It

19:03

was great. That's what I try to do a lot. I don't try to

19:05

immediately pick fights, but I I will push

19:07

back and say, think harder. Think a

19:09

little harder

19:10

people about everything. And everyone's not

19:13

a team person, like I'm on Team Blue

19:15

or Team White. It makes you not very

19:17

smart. Right? If you have to suck up all one

19:19

sides ideas and then

19:21

ignore and and denigrate other people's opinions. Yeah.

19:23

And it's important to engage, you know.

19:25

Right? You can't just mute the

19:27

comments or whatever because I mean, when you're talking to like

19:29

these crazy queuing on people, they're

19:31

nuts. Like, I'm sorry. And then you don't even have to be polite. There's

19:33

no two sides to it, but some people okay.

19:36

Why do you think this? You know, I think

19:38

it's better. even if you don't come to agreement

19:40

to at least acknowledge that people, not

19:42

everybody

19:42

is lunatic. Whenever you have to pick

19:44

a side, nobody wins, essentially.

19:46

And even if you're right, it's not gonna end well.

19:49

But I'm sorry, you asked about climate change. There's

19:51

all kinds of solutions technologically. One

19:53

is carbon mitigation that's gotten a lot

19:55

of funding, and that's like taking it and putting

19:57

it in algae or out in

19:58

space or whatever. There's all kinds of

19:59

different things happening. Another is how

20:01

to create energy to replace fossil fuels.

20:03

I think

20:04

that's the top one fat. We've got to get rid of carbon emissions, like,

20:07

immediately to zero,

20:08

not to, like, fifty percent, but zero.

20:10

The changes are already well

20:12

at well established by

20:14

most climate change scientists. My favorite part

20:16

is they if there's twenty thousand

20:19

scientists saying one thing, we have to listen to the four

20:21

who don't agree. really stop it. Stop it.

20:23

Stop it media. Stop it. Like, let's you

20:25

know, don't even listen to these politicians who do

20:27

this. Creation of new fuels, whether it's hydrogen

20:29

fuels that we had a really interesting

20:32

entrepreneur from an Israeli who was doing putting

20:34

things on peers to create with waves.

20:36

There's some really interesting stuff in

20:38

the way we do food. You're thinking about all these empty buildings,

20:40

commercial buildings. Well, why not fill them

20:42

with vertical farming and bring food right

20:44

the way. These amazing. They're too expensive now.

20:46

These amazing strawberries,

20:48

best they've ever eaten. So you're like,

20:50

what? Like, because they

20:51

taste good as opposed to the shitty strawberries we

20:53

all have to eat. What else do we have?

20:55

We had a a guy who's taking all the

20:58

furnaces out of I forget one

21:00

city and putting electric heat pumps

21:02

in. Obviously, the transportation stuff

21:04

captures people's imagination, but building

21:06

materials is another area, a huge contributor to

21:08

emissions. Existing buildings are a huge

21:10

problem, like replacing the things that

21:12

cause carbon emissions. there's

21:14

all kinds of really new materials. And

21:16

obviously, you have to get to people's use, you

21:18

know, recycling as a

21:19

good business, try to figure out how to make recycling

21:21

an actual business. you know,

21:24

food clothing is another area, new

21:26

kinds of clothing materials. That's a

21:28

big contributor clothing, just in, you know,

21:30

that fast fashion. I contribute that and

21:32

then I never changed my clothes since I was in high

21:34

school. So Or you're saying that?

21:36

Or my I don't change a lot. I look the same

21:38

mainstream. Yeah. So So I'd love to now

21:40

talk about you. You've made a lot of big

21:43

career moves in your time. As you said,

21:45

you studied government and policy

21:47

and you're worked at the Washington Post, so you

21:49

could have been covering those issues, but you decided --

21:51

Mhmm. -- to cover tech. And then you

21:53

jumped from the post to the Wall

21:55

Street Journal and to conferences and digital journalism with

21:57

all things digital. Mhmm. Tell me about the

21:59

big lessons that you

21:59

learned launching that with

22:02

Walt Moskbark. I

22:03

learned it for myself and said I wanted I didn't

22:06

really want to fall in line as an employee. I

22:08

never was very good at that. And

22:09

so I decided to be an entrepreneur and

22:11

do things on my own. And so A lot

22:13

of it had to do with taking control of my fate. I don't want to take orders

22:16

really. And I didn't believe in some of the orders

22:18

I was taking, and I didn't think they

22:20

understood the changes that were and

22:22

that you needed to have of revenues. Now everyone's like,

22:24

oh, yes, number of revenue streams, but I

22:26

had like four of them many years ago. Like,

22:28

I was like, if that's not gonna work, then this isn't gonna work. If

22:30

this falls away, then you need this. And

22:33

so I spent a lot of time

22:35

thinking about that. I was a busy this

22:37

person as much as I was a reporter. And so the

22:39

things I learned about is take control over

22:41

everything that you can. I think it's critical. Like

22:43

right now, this new thing I left The New York

22:45

Times, people were like, what?

22:46

Who leaves the New York Times and like I do?

22:49

because I wanna own my stuff. I want total

22:51

control over it. And in all of these

22:53

ventures, you've been the face and the

22:55

leader. Mhmm. So what kind of boss are

22:57

you? Well, I have a new thing where I called

22:59

staff zero, where I don't

22:59

wanna have anybody as

23:02

my staff. and not supposed to use that

23:04

term anymore.

23:05

Team members. Team members. That's what you're

23:07

supposed to say. But in any case, whatever we

23:09

wanna call anybody So I I'm

23:12

okay. I don't like management that much. I don't

23:14

think I'm bad at it. I just don't like

23:16

to spend my days doing it, and so

23:18

I think other people are better at it. I have an amazing producer

23:20

named Eraza who runs the team. And I

23:22

tend to weigh in on the big things. I

23:24

think people are surprised that I'm a lot

23:26

nicer than they think I'm gonna be.

23:28

Like, one one thing I did, I gave I

23:30

told everyone to take two weeks off when they take a

23:32

vacation. I kind of forcibly did because you can't

23:34

have a good vacation. on

23:36

one week,

23:36

you get all you get by the time you get back,

23:38

you're all relaxed, then you get back to work, and

23:40

I don't think

23:40

it's very good for your mental health.

23:43

And so I would insist that people take two weeks vacation

23:45

when they took a vacation and, you know, they'd

23:47

resist it. And I'm like, I it's good for

23:49

me. You come back, like, nothing when you

23:51

have one

23:51

week off. You're not good. You're not a very good worker.

23:53

And so I use that argument, whatever. I

23:55

just think it's better. What do

23:57

you look for in the people that you

23:59

gather around to be part of your team.

24:02

People who

24:02

are outspoken, I like being challenged,

24:04

I like disagreement, I like editorial

24:07

tension, I like people that aren't hurt

24:09

about editorial tension like they don't get anxious

24:11

when you disagree. I'm talking about

24:13

civilly disagree. I

24:14

don't mean acting. I don't like that. But

24:16

I do like people who really can

24:18

push back. And also, when they push

24:20

back and it doesn't go their way, they

24:22

move on. Right? I like people

24:25

who are forthright. I like people

24:27

who feel like they wanna make

24:29

something beautiful. I don't like

24:31

people who

24:31

are quietly frustrated. I think that's if

24:33

you're frustrated, you should go, like, what are you

24:35

doing? So living in a job that you don't like? I don't get that in any

24:38

I've never done that. I leave the minute I

24:40

feel frustrated. So

24:42

I like people who are aware of the

24:44

thing I like people to leave. I actually, you

24:46

know, one of the things I remember

24:48

was my Geisik, I think, are one of my

24:50

and they're like, didn't wanna tell you I was he was going to

24:52

the New York Times. We a lot of New York Times took

24:54

a lot of my reporters from Rico, but he's

24:56

like, III thought you'd be upset. I'm like, why would

24:58

it be upset that you're doing better? Like,

25:00

I feel great for you. I would like people to move on to

25:02

greater things and realize greater potential that

25:04

they have. So, I like people who want who

25:07

are ambitious. and eventually will

25:09

leave me. I like that. I like that in

25:11

people. I like people who enjoy

25:13

their work. There's too far too many people

25:15

really just don't like what they're doing and

25:17

Many people don't have choices, but the people who do

25:19

have choices and stand jobs, they hate, I don't even

25:22

understand. If I'm not having a great

25:24

time, and I'm not talking about because I'm on a

25:26

party or I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't take

25:28

drugs, but it's like if you're not enjoying

25:30

everything you do all day, why are you doing it? I can't even

25:32

begin to understand. So I like people who are

25:33

aware of their happiness in

25:36

their

25:36

work. And it's a little bit ironic that you brought off taking

25:38

time

25:38

off two weeks. Mhmm. I don't take him.

25:40

Yeah. I don't take you don't take any time off.

25:42

You talk about it a lot. I

25:45

do for other people. Yes. Okay. I do

25:47

as I said. So I do. Where does

25:49

that drive come from? And Well,

25:51

it's not a drive so much. I I have

25:53

four children. Okay. I made that choice as to have that many

25:55

kids. My older sons are twenty and seventeen,

25:57

so they're very nearly out of the house. I have

25:59

another son who's nine months old.

26:01

but my older son who handles the door, he's amazing. He's

26:03

at NYU. He goes, you're almost out

26:05

mom. You could have gone to Hawaii whenever

26:07

you

26:07

felt like. it. And I know. I was almost, but

26:10

I

26:10

chose it. I chose to have more kids. So

26:12

therefore, I don't I there's just only

26:14

so Everyone's like, you can do everything. You

26:16

can't do everything. I've family

26:18

and work. In that case, you can't I

26:20

cannot have endless vacations as the

26:22

third. Yeah.

26:23

So you're actually anticipating my next

26:26

question because you have out a

26:28

major career, but then it is very

26:30

clear, you know, from your Twitter feed

26:32

and when you talk that you

26:34

do adore being

26:36

a mom. So talk about how you balance that though.

26:38

And I asked this question of men too. So Yeah.

26:40

Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. Here's how I balance it. I

26:42

do what I want. I have my hours when I want

26:45

to. That's why I work for myself. don't work for other people. And

26:47

so if I

26:47

had to be in the office every day from

26:49

a certain time, you know, a

26:51

period, I think I would suffer. And so I

26:53

created a career where I

26:55

could work until three o'clock and then meet them at

26:57

school and have dinner. I used to take my sons

26:59

to dinner. My ex wife worked to Google.

27:01

She had to stay there till eight o'clock at

27:04

night. So I got to have dinner with them, and then I went

27:06

back to work. Right? Flexibility, the

27:08

way I've designed my work, I can do it

27:10

at different times, which is great. And I think I

27:12

was way ahead of Someone was talking about I

27:14

was the original remote worker. I never went in

27:16

the office. I hate the office. We did all

27:19

of all things d out of the my cottage

27:21

in the back of my house and we did once a week

27:23

get togethers lunches that I

27:25

thought

27:25

were important for team building,

27:26

but we did everything virtually. And then

27:28

when Slack came, we used that.

27:31

Mhmm. You

27:31

know, as I was

27:32

researching for this interview

27:34

and then also thinking about the

27:36

evolution of the Tencent tree. I

27:38

realize that you are a lot

27:40

like many of these leaders that

27:42

you've covered, you know, your -- Mhmm. --

27:44

smart entrepreneurial, hardworking, pretty

27:47

obsessed with your work, your

27:49

focus, but willing to pivot, you're always thinking about

27:51

the future. So do you feel a

27:53

kinship with the musks and the

27:55

basuses of the world? Yes. I do.

27:56

I do like their the idea of their

27:59

entrepreneurship of thinking up an idea and making

28:01

it happen. I often I I

28:03

marvel, like, I was our

28:05

last code this year. I was looking around and

28:07

I was like, look how many people I

28:09

made jobs for. I wasn't patting myself

28:11

on the back, but, like, just one idea that Walt and

28:13

I had provided jobs for twenty

28:15

years to people, like really good jobs,

28:17

really fun. Look at all the great content we

28:19

made just from our idea. to

28:21

me is a big deal. Like, you look around

28:23

and you create jobs and ideas and

28:25

things that people use, that feels

28:28

great. that feels really great. And I have to say it's a

28:30

really nice, you know, an

28:31

ability to be an entrepreneur and make

28:34

things that then have impact on a wide

28:36

range

28:36

of people, whether your customers or your employees

28:38

is really kinda cool. Why

28:40

do you

28:40

think you have that ability to

28:42

quit while you're ahead and jump

28:44

to something new even though

28:47

you don't know that it's going to be as much of a success?

28:49

Well, one thing is

28:50

I've had a lot of success. I mean, I tend to

28:53

whenever I do that, it tends to

28:55

work out. because I I think really hard about my

28:57

ideas. And if it doesn't work, I don't

28:59

care. Like, then I'll do something else. Like, I always

29:01

feel like one time someone was saying

29:03

that to me, like, if you don't do this, you're

29:05

going

29:05

to be washed up at twenty eight. I remember it

29:07

was really something, and I was

29:09

like, I could be a

29:10

freaking waitress, I'll be just fine. Like, you know

29:13

what I mean? Like, I'll be fine no matter what

29:15

I do. They were like, you're gonna ruin your career. I'm

29:17

like, really? you think that right now is the

29:19

end of biker. I do that. I'd say that the young

29:21

kids including my sons, my older

29:23

sons, whenever my son right now is all

29:25

upset about college. I'm like,

29:27

don't worry. tall, tall,

29:27

white man with wealth. Somehow,

29:30

you'll live

29:30

on the odds.

29:31

I'm always like, you can do what you want. You

29:34

you

29:34

are to be on a planet where you're in a country that you can

29:36

do what you want. Everything is up to you

29:38

and you can make some choices. I don't say not

29:40

to do anything, but like at least

29:43

think hard. And so I can leave because I'll do something else.

29:45

I'll make something else. And it always works

29:47

out. Because if you stay at the fair too

29:49

long, you you you just become stale and

29:51

you're just phoning it in and I find that

29:54

depressing. And, you know, I think it's because

29:56

my dad died when he was thirty four. I

29:57

really think it informs everything

29:59

I

29:59

do. He'd just gotten out of the navy. He was

30:02

poor guy, relatively poor

30:04

family, middle lower middle

30:06

class family. but couldn't afford

30:08

college and medical school. And so he

30:10

went in the navy and he paid for

30:12

everything. He gets out. He has this

30:14

great new job. first big high paying

30:16

job at the

30:16

time running in the anesthesia department at

30:19

a major hospital in New York.

30:20

He's three kids, new house. He

30:22

just was able to buy a new house and he died. Like, think

30:25

about that. Like, now he was that

30:27

was tragic because he was really looking forward to

30:29

his next chapter, but I think about that all

30:31

the time. I talked about that at the last

30:33

code. Steve Jobs made all the things

30:35

he made when he was dying, all the things we

30:37

remember

30:37

for when he was dying.

30:39

Every second he

30:40

was dying. And so I think about he you have a

30:42

great

30:42

speech at Stanford that I read every

30:44

month or so. which I referenced in my last code, which is

30:46

like, if he had too many days in

30:47

a row where he said he wasn't happy,

30:50

he stopped and he changed. And I think that's

30:52

a really good piece of advice for a lot of

30:55

people. who have the ability to do it,

30:57

not everybody does,

30:57

as I said. Terrific. Well, Cara,

30:59

it

30:59

has been wonderful talking to you. Thanks so much for

31:02

coming on the show. Well,

31:04

thank you for doing such a thoughtful and nice

31:06

interview. I appreciate it.

31:08

That was

31:11

Kara Swisher. journalist, entrepreneur, and

31:13

host of on with Cara Swisher,

31:15

a Vox and New York

31:17

Magazine Podcast. If

31:19

you like today's we have more podcasts to help you manage

31:21

yourself, your team, and your organization. Find

31:24

them at HBR dot org slash

31:26

podcasts. or search HBR in Apple

31:28

Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you

31:30

listen. This episode was produced by

31:32

Mary Dew. We get technical help from

31:35

Rob Eckart. Hana Bates is our audio

31:37

production assistant, and Ian Fox is our

31:39

audio product manager. Thanks

31:40

for listening to the HBR ideacast. We'll

31:43

be back with a new episode

31:45

on Tuesday. I'm Allison

31:52

Gilliam.

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