0:01

When leadership advice feels like buzzwords and

0:03

platitudes, it's time to get real. HBR's

0:06

podcast, Coaching Real Leaders, brings you

0:08

behind closed doors as Muriel

0:10

Wilkins coaches anonymous leaders through raw,

0:12

honest career questions that we all

0:14

face. Listen and follow

0:17

Coaching Real Leaders for free wherever you

0:19

get your podcasts. Welcome

0:27

to HBR on Leadership. We

0:29

study and conversation with the world's

0:31

top business and management experts, hand-selected,

0:34

to help you unlock the best in those

0:36

around you. If

0:40

you've invested in someone you manage, it's natural

0:42

to feel hurt when that person tells you

0:44

they're leaving, especially if they're a

0:47

strong contributor. The classic

0:49

management advice is don't take it personally,

0:51

be professional. But it's important

0:53

to acknowledge your feelings and work through them, for

0:56

yourself and with your team. Today

0:59

we bring you a conversation about how

1:01

to cope with the shock, sadness, and

1:03

stress of losing a star employee, with

1:05

the help of two HBR editorial

1:07

leaders, Maureen Hoek and Nicole Smith,

1:10

and Women at Work listeners themselves

1:12

who share their experiences losing team

1:14

members. You'll also

1:16

learn how to manage your emotions in the

1:18

moment, and then how to revisit your feelings

1:20

later to process them. This

1:23

episode originally aired on Women at Work in October 2021

1:25

in the midst of what was

1:28

known as the Great Resignation. You'll

1:30

hear it mentioned in the episode, but the

1:33

conversation has implications for leading through difficult staffing

1:35

transitions that are relevant at any time. I

1:38

think you'll enjoy it. Here it is. I

1:48

am feeling for my friends who

1:50

manage teams right now because this

1:53

phenomenon of the Great Resignation

1:55

is hitting them really hard.

1:58

What are you hearing from them? I hear

2:01

a lot of stories about dreading

2:03

the, can I talk to you

2:05

for a moment or getting the

2:07

invite from a beloved

2:09

direct report, but it's unclear

2:12

why exactly they're setting up a

2:14

meeting and the

2:16

sleepless nights of how do I make sure

2:18

I don't lose anyone else on my team.

2:21

I have to tell you nothing strikes

2:23

fear in my heart like the email,

2:25

the subject line of which is, got

2:27

a sec. I mean, that,

2:31

it never takes a sec. I always want to say,

2:34

I just want to say no. Yes, no, I don't. You

2:38

know, all managers have gone through

2:40

this and we know how

2:43

we're supposed to respond and

2:45

it's genuine. You want what's best for

2:49

anyone on your team. You want them to be

2:52

happy. You

2:54

know that no employment situation

2:56

is forever, but even

2:59

though you know all of that intellectually,

3:01

it still hurts. It still

3:03

strikes home. I didn't

3:06

realize how personally managers take it, which

3:08

is so sad for

3:11

all bypass managers who I've been like,

3:13

bye. You're

3:17

listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business

3:19

Review. I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy

3:21

Bernstein. And I'm Emily Caulfield. Every

3:25

time I see a manager calm and collected after

3:28

somebody on their team quits, I

3:30

wonder what are they actually thinking and

3:32

feeling? Well, we're about to find

3:34

out. You're going to

3:36

hear from several managers, me included,

3:39

about how we deal when someone

3:41

leaves our team. We're

3:43

starting with two women who opened up

3:45

to me about their experiences of losing

3:47

multiple employees. The

3:51

first woman works in city government in the U.S.

3:54

Typically she manages a team of seven or

3:56

eight, but in 2020, two team members left

3:58

within a couple months. of each other. She'd

4:01

actually been expecting the resignations. Both had been

4:03

with the city for a long time and

4:05

had let her know many months

4:07

prior that they were searching for new jobs.

4:10

But it was the next three that were not

4:12

expected. Those happened in quick succession

4:15

within a month. You know,

4:17

those conversations were hard to swallow. It's

4:19

just an emotional roller coaster because, you

4:21

know, at first it was part

4:23

of the job. People will leave, you know, this

4:25

is part of being a manager. But

4:28

then it started being like, okay,

4:30

this is exhausting. And I've

4:34

just learned to be

4:36

quiet and listen, take

4:39

it all in, ask what

4:42

their next opportunity is and

4:45

let myself breathe in that space

4:48

and not react in front of them. Because

4:50

I definitely react, but

4:53

it's not good to do that in front of

4:55

them. And I usually

4:57

touch base with my boss and say,

4:59

hey, this person's leaving. Here are the

5:01

facts. And this is what I want

5:03

to do moving forward. Or do you have another idea?

5:05

Kind of game plan it out. The

5:07

resignation that hurt the most was the

5:10

employee who left for a lower pain,

5:12

but also lower stress job. Our

5:14

workload and our capacity has just been

5:16

overwhelming. And so it

5:19

was really a cry for help

5:21

that she can't sustain in this

5:23

position any longer. And that really

5:25

got to me emotionally, just

5:28

because, you know, we have these

5:30

monthly one on ones. And so

5:33

to not recognize the signs

5:35

that she was struggling or

5:37

suffering even, and that,

5:39

you know, I thought we

5:41

were decent friends and still

5:43

not recognizing that. Yeah. Did

5:46

it make you wonder what other people on your

5:48

team were feeling like that you weren't maybe seeing?

5:51

Definitely. COVID, you know, has

5:54

created this hybrid or remote work

5:56

for us. And

5:58

I'm a pretty good. Read on. People

6:01

are usually know. What's up and that

6:03

kind of social awareness as disappeared

6:05

with coven. We've been doing a

6:07

lot more in person work now

6:10

and so it's definitely bring it

6:12

back to better place by. yeah,

6:14

definitely. I think there's a lot

6:17

of start questioning what are the

6:19

role of things. Especially

6:21

because by that time. That.

6:24

Those three laughed. We had hired

6:26

new people and so they're coming

6:28

in a month to three months

6:30

into an organization saying. What

6:33

am I going with of Israel? Is

6:35

there something wrong with the. Romans

6:38

that maybe it is. I don't know

6:40

sister. She's in it for

6:43

the long haul, but that doesn't mean

6:45

she wants the working conditions to stay

6:47

the way they are. And fortunately others

6:50

resignation see said lead senior management to

6:52

offer more support and making the workload

6:54

more sustainable. They paused some projects and

6:57

change the budget midyear to add a

6:59

few new positions. For me, emotionally,

7:01

I've I broke down for that

7:03

because I recognized that they recognize

7:05

how much we were struggling. She's.

7:08

Also making changes to the things

7:10

that seeking control. If

7:12

weeks only expect people to say two

7:14

years then we need to be more

7:17

efficient with our own boarding. I need

7:19

to spend way more time with people

7:21

so I can understand their weaknesses or

7:23

what they do or don't understand for

7:26

me to feel. Better.

7:28

About. Did. I do

7:30

enough. When someone does eventually leave his

7:32

out that will still happen by it.

7:34

Did I put enough time and to

7:37

on board this person? Did I spent

7:39

enough time. To. Truly understand what

7:41

makes them tick to make sure that

7:44

they're getting all the resources that they

7:46

need to feel successful. The drug. Their.

7:51

Said ceiling when someone quit because

7:54

there's just. The. Work

7:56

is too much and. And the pressures?

7:58

Too much. When you. realize, yeah,

8:00

it's been too much for all

8:02

of us. And if

8:05

this person can quit, why

8:07

do I have to put up with this myself? I'm

8:09

also totally stressed out. And once

8:12

all your staff quits, then you're extra overworked.

8:15

Managers are going to be the most burnt out

8:17

people of us all after

8:19

this great resignation. I think

8:21

that's exactly right, Emily. And that's actually what

8:24

we heard from the second person I spoke

8:27

to was just how overwhelming the

8:29

workload was when she lost so

8:32

many members of her team. It

8:35

started around about March of

8:37

this year, which

8:39

in the UK, that's when we've been in

8:41

a few months of quite heavy lockdown. And

8:43

you could see that people were really coming to

8:45

the end of their tethers. And

8:48

how many people just give us context? How many people

8:50

do you manage and how many people quit? I

8:52

have a direct team of six people of

8:55

which at one point four had left

8:57

the business. That was a really considerable

8:59

impact on my life. Yeah.

9:01

Were you expecting the four who

9:04

quit to do so? Nope,

9:06

definitely not. Yeah. What

9:09

was your initial reaction? So

9:12

it was a mix. There was some

9:15

disappointment, disappointment that they were going. A

9:18

bit of disappointment that I hadn't

9:20

created an environment that was great

9:23

for them to stay. But also,

9:25

if I'm honest, a little panic of like,

9:27

what am I going to do

9:29

now? We have clients.

9:31

I work in a service firm. We

9:35

have to provide what we said we will for

9:37

clients. And that essentially meant

9:39

me picking up a lot of

9:41

things directly. Quite a lot of early

9:43

mornings, late evenings, weekend

9:45

working. Giving up

9:48

time, digging in and just

9:50

doing things. Yeah. It

9:52

sounds exhausting. Yes. Take

9:55

us back to Perhaps the

9:57

most painful of the departures. How did

9:59

you? You react when they told you

10:01

they were leaving and what were you

10:03

feeling inside at that moment? I

10:07

would actually say it was the first.

10:09

It almost felt like a bit of

10:11

a cascade following. that. that it was

10:13

that first one that I think really

10:15

triggered things. So. I

10:17

am a believer that when you are surrounded

10:19

by your team a loss of the time,

10:21

you get a sense of when people aren't

10:23

happy, You get a sense of when they

10:25

may be off doing an interview and when

10:27

everyone is virtual. You just do Not

10:30

get that. Yeah, So

10:32

when they have the conversation with

10:34

me which was obviously over that

10:36

video call. It

10:38

was a shock. I wasn't

10:40

expecting it from this person.

10:43

Ah, this is somebody that I was

10:45

very invested in. Very invested in their

10:47

future of where they come from, where

10:50

I thought we could go to and

10:52

I didn't expect sense and you'd have

10:54

to maintain that say so fights. Okay,

10:56

well. That's. Really sad

10:58

and can we do anything to keep

11:00

pew and my gosh this is disappointing

11:02

and internally your to side. with

11:05

of when did this happen and when we you

11:07

doing this and so did I not pick this

11:09

up and and why didn't I. Know about this

11:12

and why didn't you talk to me and I'm.

11:15

In retrospect, why not ask a few of

11:17

those questions in a slightly less than person's

11:19

way? But yeah, that was a big contrast.

11:22

Between them. So

11:24

I felt I had to behave and then. How

11:26

I felt I had to then go and talk

11:28

to other people in the business about this versus

11:30

what I actually thought which the sight. This

11:33

is. Your stressful and I think this is

11:35

going to trigger some other things happening. Off the

11:38

back of their Senza and that's where we were.

11:42

Described the contrast a little bit more

11:44

because. You're saying you were expected

11:46

to behave in one way: And

11:49

you access salt Completely different. Say,

11:51

tell us a little bit more

11:53

about that contrast. i

11:56

think there's a manager you you really have

11:58

to show that you our supporters of people

12:00

decisions. Even when that decision is, I'm not

12:02

going to work here anymore. And that's

12:05

what I was trying to convey like, okay, I

12:07

understand this. But

12:09

to be fair, I didn't understand it. I

12:12

didn't actually understand quite why they had quit and

12:14

why we couldn't give them what they were actually looking

12:16

for. And I think it was a really very, very

12:19

different feeling internally versus externally.

12:22

And then because you're not in an office and you

12:24

can't just go and grab a couple of people and

12:26

talk about it, it then almost sort of compounded

12:28

as in, you know, why did this happen

12:30

and what could we have done? And that's

12:33

pretty tough as well. Yeah. If

12:36

you weren't behaving the

12:38

way you thought you were supposed to, what would

12:40

you have said in that moment? I

12:43

think I would have just been more like, you're

12:46

really a star employee within the

12:49

team. You know, I really rate

12:51

what you're doing. I really

12:53

think you have a massive opportunity to move

12:55

forward. There's this and this and this. And

13:00

can we just have a conversation over a

13:02

glass of wine or something then just tell

13:04

me more about why you were doing this

13:06

just as a person, not as your

13:08

manager? Yeah, what would have been the harm

13:11

of doing that? In

13:14

hindsight, none. It would have actually

13:16

been great. I think that's a

13:18

great learning, which is that, you

13:21

know, you would have done that in an office

13:23

environment, you would have been like, come on, right,

13:25

we're going to go out at least for a

13:27

coffee now have this chat. And you cannot do

13:29

that. And I do

13:31

think that's been another downside of being

13:34

just on calls for the last

13:36

18 months is that you cannot

13:38

as easily break through some of

13:40

these barriers and emotions. Yeah,

13:42

I mean, it almost sounds like you're saying

13:44

that having to

13:47

have these conversations virtually means

13:49

you end up being less human. I think

13:52

you can be yes. And I think that

13:54

is partly it's partly

13:58

that work has become a little bit more robotic

14:00

in some ways and like it is very much now

14:03

like half an hour here and half an hour there

14:05

and this call and then this call and

14:07

to then recall or just remember that this

14:09

is your team. This is people that you

14:12

work with and to really bring out that

14:14

human side not just like get through the

14:16

next thing and get through the next thing.

14:19

Right. All right. The two survivors on your

14:21

team. Yes. And

14:23

I'm sorry to use that word but I think it's out. I

14:25

know it's great. How did they

14:27

feel? How did you manage their emotion about everything

14:29

that was happening? Yeah.

14:32

So spending more

14:34

time actually trying to be

14:36

a bit more human, trying to talk about things

14:38

other than great. This meeting is tomorrow. Have you

14:41

done the deck? And the

14:43

other thing I did was actually start to admit

14:45

that I was feeling very stressed and that I

14:47

was feeling that I'd really had to take on

14:49

a lot and do the jobs of three to

14:51

four people and that I actually just couldn't do

14:54

that anymore. So I actually

14:56

slowly started to delegate more things and actually

14:58

get people involved in more things and have

15:00

them realize how much was going on and

15:02

how many things were actually behind the scenes

15:04

that they didn't know about. And

15:08

that's been very helpful all around.

15:11

Were there other people at work, your

15:13

boss, the remaining people on your team

15:16

who you've talked to over the past?

15:18

It sounds like almost six months

15:20

now about how you felt about

15:23

these employees quitting, being so understaffed.

15:26

Yes. And to be clear,

15:28

my boss has been absolutely

15:30

fantastic. I just got

15:32

slightly stuck in that piece around

15:37

sometimes it takes more time to hand things over

15:39

than it does to just do it yourself.

15:41

And I got very stuck in the just

15:44

do it myself. If I just do it myself, I

15:46

can do it quickly. I can get it done. But

15:48

I actually had a huge amount of support from

15:51

my boss. And she very much was like,

15:53

look, what can I take on or, you

15:55

know, phone me if you just need to

15:57

chat. And I didn't really take her up

15:59

on that. And I would going forward, I

16:01

would actually just have more conversations that

16:03

were just I

16:06

need to download this or hey, I

16:08

have five competing priorities. Can you just

16:11

let me talk them through and help me prioritize

16:13

them, for example. So just taking

16:15

away some of this feeling

16:17

that I have to make every decision. That's

16:20

what I would do differently, not feel that

16:22

I have to make every single decision. Right,

16:25

right. I imagine you

16:27

were counting the days until you have a full

16:30

team again. Yes. So

16:33

over the next couple of weeks, help

16:35

is coming. I have people joining the team, which

16:38

is really fantastic. I'm very excited.

16:41

We have a lot of things in place to make

16:43

them feel welcome and supported. I

16:45

just feel so much lighter. I

16:47

just, yeah, I

16:50

just feel like it's

16:52

going to be a really nice end to the year. I'm

16:57

really happy to hear that things are going a lot

16:59

better for her now and that

17:01

things are looking up with her new

17:03

employees. Yeah, it does sound like

17:06

relief is on the way for her. Both

17:08

my conversations with these women, I still

17:10

had a lot of questions coming out

17:13

of them like how do you handle

17:15

the guilt you feel when good employees

17:17

leave? Like how can you anticipate if

17:21

and when people might leave and how

17:23

to handle your bosses reaction? I mean,

17:25

it sounded like the second woman in

17:27

London I spoke to had a supportive

17:29

boss, but what if you're afraid

17:32

your boss is going to be mad or going

17:34

to blame you? And

17:36

you know, I'm not a manager. Neither

17:38

am I. But Amy, you are. So

17:41

Emily and I are going to step aside and let

17:43

you talk with two other managers at HBR, Maureen

17:46

Hoke and Nicole Smith. The

17:48

three of you collectively have a lot

17:50

of experience managing people. And

17:52

I'd imagine you all have some experience with

17:55

people leaving. Yes, yes, we

17:57

do. Maureen's

17:59

the editor. of hbr.org and

18:01

Nicole who goes by

18:03

Nikki is HBR's editorial

18:06

audience director. Thanks

18:08

to you both for being here. Glad to be here. I'm

18:11

so glad you invited me to this conversation. Nikki,

18:13

let me start with you. You know, we

18:16

all listen to the manager who

18:19

is based in London. What

18:21

stuck out to you from that? I

18:24

think her interview was

18:26

honest and transparent in her

18:28

shop and not

18:31

knowing completely what to

18:33

say and then having to gather

18:35

herself. And so many of

18:37

us are like that. We try

18:39

to compose ourselves but the truth is

18:42

that we're human. We're managers but we're

18:44

human. And so we feel it when

18:46

other people that we built bonds with

18:48

and souls ties to and spend day

18:50

in and day out leave us and

18:52

the only human reaction is to be

18:55

shocked, is to self-reflect, maybe even some

18:57

self-doubt. And that self-reflection for me at

18:59

least often involves asking myself how much

19:01

of this was about me and how

19:03

much of it really wasn't. How many times

19:05

have we heard that phrase that people don't

19:07

quit jobs, they quit bosses. So that we've

19:10

almost been socialized to think about this and

19:12

to believe this and whether it's true or

19:14

not, it's almost like a go-to. What

19:17

did I do to encourage for you to feel

19:19

like you don't want to be here anymore? And

19:21

the truth of the matter is there's a myriad

19:23

of reasons that people could choose to

19:25

move on from their current job, from

19:27

their current organization. At the end

19:30

of the day, you always wonder was

19:32

I a part of that decision? Yeah,

19:34

I agree. It's really hard to separate

19:36

out the personal from the

19:38

professional even if you know and I've

19:41

done this myself. I've tried to step back and think about

19:43

when I've left jobs in the past, it

19:45

was because I was making my own decision. I wanted

19:47

to do something different. I wanted to do something new.

19:50

I certainly didn't think of it like I'm

19:52

leaving because of my boss in those situations.

19:55

But when you're on the other side of that

19:57

table and if there's somebody who you've really invested

19:59

in and you feel strongly about

20:01

and you've done what you can

20:03

to make that job great

20:05

for them, it's really hard to just

20:07

be like, okay, well, this is just

20:10

a business decision and there's no personal

20:12

connection here that matters.

20:15

And I think as I've progressed in my own

20:17

career, I've had to realize, I've had

20:19

to remind myself that this is a

20:21

job and it's not always

20:24

about you. It's not always personal. I

20:27

heard a phrase a couple of years ago that

20:29

really stuck with me in that you

20:31

can't put a changed person back

20:33

into an unchanged environment. So if

20:35

I'm responsible for changing that person,

20:37

for developing that person, for growing

20:40

that person, I also have to

20:42

be mature enough and broad thinking

20:44

enough to recognize that person

20:46

is now changed. And so that

20:48

means that environment may not suit that changed

20:50

person anymore. And that kind of

20:52

soothes me when I think about the person

20:54

coming and saying, I'm moving forward, I'm moving on.

20:58

So there was an idea that came up

21:00

both in the story from

21:02

the person who leads in the

21:04

private sector in London and

21:06

the woman who is based here in the

21:08

US and is in a government role,

21:12

which is that it was very hard for them

21:14

to pick up signals, particularly

21:17

now since we're not all together, we

21:19

don't see each other, we can't observe

21:21

each other. How did

21:23

that hit your ears, Maureen? I

21:26

mean, it's something I've been reflecting on

21:28

a lot lately, that the

21:30

ability to really listen to what someone's

21:32

telling you, it is hard in the

21:34

best of times. And it's like even

21:37

more, I think, just complicated in our

21:40

hybrid world, because it's just harder to

21:42

get a read on people sometimes when

21:44

you're talking through a screen. I

21:47

think that is still something that requires

21:49

time and patience and like an attention on

21:51

your part as a manager. So I

21:54

have tried to prioritize that, especially, I think

21:56

I always have, but especially through the time

21:58

that we've been working at home. and

22:00

I have quite a few direct reports, and so

22:03

it's something that takes up a lot of my

22:05

time. But no, I really felt

22:07

like the ability to communicate and stay connected

22:09

was gonna be critical to my ability to

22:11

manage people. So, Maureen, you

22:13

said part of it is listening. How

22:16

do you become a good listener? How do you

22:18

know that you're doing that well? Yeah,

22:21

I think to be a better listener requires asking

22:23

good questions. I think that's part of being a

22:25

good leader, is not always trying to

22:28

come in with the answer or the solution to

22:30

everything, but asking people good

22:32

questions. And not

22:35

trick questions, or questions that get them to be like,

22:37

so have you been on any interviews lately?

22:40

It's not that, but it's more of trying to

22:42

really probe not just how

22:44

they're doing with their work, because they could be doing a

22:46

great job with their work, but it's more like, how are

22:48

they feeling about where they are in their career? What

22:51

do they want to do? How

22:53

are they thinking about the next three to five

22:55

years? Are you taking the time to ask them

22:57

those questions, or are you just focused on just

23:00

the work you're trying to get through that day? So,

23:04

one of the things that eventually occurs

23:06

to you if someone on your team

23:08

tells you that they're leaving is you

23:10

gotta tell your boss. And

23:13

for me, there's always a moment where I wonder, is

23:17

this gonna somehow bruise

23:19

my reputation? Have you

23:21

ever thought about that? Nikki, do you think about that?

23:24

Well, I have selfishly

23:26

thought about that. The

23:28

succinct answer is yes. Anyone

23:31

who I work for knows

23:33

my employees equally as well as me,

23:36

and I'm usually giving updates

23:38

to my manager, so by

23:41

that time, I'm hoping that I feel

23:43

comfortable to say, this person

23:45

quit, this person said this is why

23:47

they're quitting, and maybe

23:49

even beforehand, when I've talked to my

23:52

manager, we've walked through that, maybe we've

23:54

detected that, maybe we've tried to do

23:56

something ahead of time to

23:58

prevent that, so you. Usually, I don't

24:01

think it's a surprise by that point because

24:03

my manager and I have had that conversation.

24:05

I will say if someone needs to be

24:07

on alert and he or she

24:09

knows that by that point and just keeping

24:12

that openness has helped make that conversation a

24:14

lot easier. It's also opened the door for my

24:16

manager to talk to my employee and see if

24:19

they can have them open up in a way

24:21

maybe they don't want to open up to me

24:23

because I am the direct manager. So it's usually

24:25

a little bit more collaborative by the time I've

24:27

gotten to tell my manager

24:29

this person's quitting. How

24:31

about in situations when you didn't

24:33

see it coming where you

24:36

were blindsided and now you're going to have

24:38

to blindside your manager, your boss? Yeah,

24:40

I've had to do that. I

24:43

remember there was one time I had to

24:45

call my boss and I think he was

24:47

technically on vacation. I remember he was driving

24:49

somewhere and I said, I'm sorry

24:52

if I have to tell you some bad news.

24:54

I almost wondered if I should tell him

24:56

to pull off the side of the road but I didn't need to

24:58

do that. But I

25:01

was so fortunate. I've been so

25:03

fortunate in these situations I've been through where

25:05

my manager has been totally like, we knew

25:07

this person was a risk. We knew that

25:09

this is something that might happen and

25:11

like immediately pivots to, okay, what

25:14

do we do from here? I've been on the

25:16

receiving end of that phone call, not your phone

25:18

call. But I

25:21

have to say that my first

25:23

response, my first instinct was to

25:26

take care of the person who was calling me because

25:29

I knew how painful a call that

25:31

was. And then how do we take

25:33

care of the team? Because one thing I worry

25:35

about a lot when someone leaves

25:38

is the fabric of the

25:40

team left behind. How do

25:43

you guys think about that? Yeah,

25:45

I think you need to manage and

25:47

ideally with the person who's decided to

25:49

exit how they want to communicate to

25:51

people on the team and hopefully if

25:53

they're telling you they haven't

25:55

already told also their 10 closest friends, you

25:57

know what I mean? Like hopefully you're one of the first people.

26:00

The want her to get the news so

26:02

the you can understand There are there people

26:04

they want to tell themselves and then. I.

26:06

Think what the team? You want

26:08

to be a leader in that moment anyone ever want.

26:11

To feel confident like yes this is a change

26:13

but like we're going to see a true i'm

26:15

in the driver's seat. We're going to get through this.

26:17

but on the other hand, you don't want to act

26:19

like this is no big deal. suffered like ten

26:21

of just saying like hair know this is. Hard.

26:24

But. You know, let's think about where

26:27

we go from here I think especially when the

26:29

news is fresh. I think like once people have

26:31

some time to digest the news and then years

26:33

and ten of like move forward when that news

26:35

as fresh as when the hardest. Line

26:37

to walk As a manager. And

26:40

under key, how to handle that?

26:42

honestly? Burst. Of I think people

26:44

had told the tin closest friends about the look.

26:46

When. You're

26:49

probably right as think that. If

26:52

you are open and honest

26:54

in conversation, know and not

26:56

overly. Corporate. Quite frankly,

26:58

not overly structured in expressing how

27:00

you feel that think people get

27:02

it, that people decide to move

27:04

on is not necessarily a reflection.

27:06

I'm just. The culture with the boss who's

27:08

have. To think that night. One. Thing

27:11

I've always believed him for his

27:13

really recognizing someone's contributions and acknowledging

27:15

that in front of your team

27:17

is so important, even if you're.

27:19

Feeling very blindsided

27:21

upset discouraged. If

27:24

you show that to use the team and

27:26

you don't recognize and think that person for

27:28

all the ways that they made. A difference

27:30

that's gonna hit your team wrong He like

27:32

at that point you need to put a

27:34

little bit of whatever your personal feelings are

27:37

aside and just recognize that person for. All. They've

27:39

done and and celebrate them a little bit as much.

27:41

As you can so you want the

27:43

person. Leaving to feel good. About

27:46

their time here. And

27:48

to feel proud and to feel appreciated?

27:50

Ah, and you want everyone else on

27:53

the team to know that. People.

27:55

Are are valued. No

27:57

matter what, Nicky

27:59

More. And you how much for

28:01

joining they say the least for easier to

28:03

be. You

28:09

just heard Maureen Help editor of

28:11

hbr.org and Nicole Smith H B

28:13

Hours Editorial Audience Director and Conversation

28:16

with Any Bernstein, Amy Gallo and

28:18

Emily Caulfield on Women At Work.

28:23

Will be back next Wednesday with another

28:25

handpicked conversation about leadership from server to

28:28

business review. If you through this episode

28:30

health whole share with your friends and

28:32

colleagues and follow our show on Apple

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Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your

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with the world's top business

28:49

and management experts suspended and

28:51

hbr.org. This

28:54

episode was produced by Amanda Kersey

28:56

and Seine and Me Hannity. He

28:58

and Fox is our editor Music

29:01

by Com A Media special thanks

29:03

to a lady Martha Marine help

29:05

Eric the truck fleur frames the

29:07

cabanas Nicole Smith and Bartholomew and

29:09

you. See

29:12

this week.