0:02

All right, hop on, friend. Yay!

0:08

Unmute yourself, and we're going to dive in. Hey, guys.

0:14

Hello, listeners of Healthy, Wealthy and Smart. I'm so grateful

0:18

to be here to interview Dr. Veronica Canada, who

0:22

is a specialist in sports physical

0:26

therapy. Specifically today, we're going to be focusing on

0:30

the difference between swimming and

0:34

diving. We're just going to dive right

0:40

on into that. So first of all, Ronnie, would you mind

0:43

giving a little background on your experience with swimming

0:48

All right, sure. Hey, everybody. So a little bit about

0:51

my background. I have been a swimmer, competitive swimmer since

0:55

the age of seven. Wow, that's a long time to think about

0:58

it. But we're not going to talk about that. And then

1:02

shortly after that, I took up competitive diving when

1:06

I was 12. And then when I was 16, I was

1:09

doing year round for both sports. And then I

1:12

did division one diving in college. And the

1:15

rides have been a complete roller coaster. And it's been

1:19

amazing because I learned a lot of things, both from a physical standpoint from

1:22

the sports themselves and from a mental point. And

1:26

now that I'm adult, I'm just like, oh, wow, like those are life lessons that

1:29

were taught back then. But. It clicks now,

1:33

and now being in physical therapy, I'm like, oh, wow, this really

1:37

makes sense. Or like, wow, I remember my shoulder hurting. Or like,

1:40

wow, I remember this hurting me. And like, it makes sense now. So

1:44

that's why I'm really passionate about it. And can't wait

1:49

I'm so happy. This is exciting. And, and we

1:52

know each other from the dance PT world. So that's our

1:56

connection. And Disney. Disney and

2:00

dance PT. Absolutely. And, and

2:03

I know I already knew, I've known you for a while now. So I've known about your, your

2:07

passion for sports. It's funny, actually, before I

2:10

started this interview before today, I went and I Just

2:14

did a quick Google because I started to get curious about the research

2:17

that's out there. Yeah, because when we get into more niche

2:21

specific sports and when what does pop up for swimming and

2:24

diving. There was definitely stuff for swimming there was, but

2:28

when diving scuba diving was. And scuba

2:31

diving is so different. I

2:35

was going there is there was like hardly any

2:38

so I was wondering just to start there. What is your journey been

2:42

with looking at the evidence that is out there where are we out

2:47

It's like, I'm gonna be honest with you. It's like how I

2:50

feel about my bank account. I'm struggling to find stuff because I'm

2:54

just like, because on a serious note, like you said, like when you

2:57

when you type in the word diving, you get scuba

3:01

diving, you get diving, you get springboard, you

3:04

get platform, there's different types of diving. So And

3:08

all of that requires different physical demands. So like, for example,

3:11

when you look at the Red Bull cool cliff divers that

3:15

are diving off of 60-foot high or 60-meter high

3:19

cliffs from a mountain in Europe, It

3:25

takes, you're hitting the water, your wrist alone are hitting the water more than

3:29

45 miles an hour versus a springboard diver who's three

3:32

meters high, you're hitting at a little bit of a less speed. So like

3:36

there's different demands. So the research is going to be a little bit

3:39

different. But on top of that, it's just, it's cool

3:45

like you don't even think about scuba diving so it's just like oh wow like that

3:48

is something somebody there's someone out there or like

3:52

a group i mean i didn't look at who did the research but it's probably in the same place like

3:59

And even that, you know what made me laugh? Because I remember one time I did a project on

4:02

diving, and I was trying to find research, because, you know, your professor's like,

4:05

yo, you got to find something. I'm like, OK. And I did that. And I'm like, why is scuba

4:09

diving on here? But I was like, you know what? I'm going to procrastinate a little bit. So

4:13

I read an article. And it was about lung capacities and, like,

4:16

different, the deeper you go, I think, the more pressure builds on

4:19

your lungs or something along those lines of what that can do as a scuba diver and

4:23

how that trickles into the physical demand.

4:30

That's right. Right. It's so funny. We're getting, I

4:34

mean, we're on track. We're also off track, but I needed to point that out right away. I

4:37

think always started with the evidence and what's out there. And I know

4:41

you already knew that, but I just wanted to talk about it because there is

4:44

such a huge lack of evidence. Uh,

4:52

When you get at least like specific sports, when you get a lot of

4:55

them, a lot of it is either I've worked with it. Or

4:59

I did it, or it's a combination of both. You're

5:02

not going to find a lot of evidence right now, at

5:05

least, on diving from this

5:09

perspective, only because there's a lot

5:12

to take in. There's a lot of factors that play into that role. And

5:16

when you conduct research, you kind of have to narrow it down to an extent.

5:20

And on top of that, everybody's built differently. I mean, that's what makes research fun.

5:24

It's going to be very hard to trickle down to like, what specifically are

5:28

you looking for? Because there's outdoor diving

5:31

too. Now you have to take into account weather changes, wind

5:35

speed, that affects a certain angle that you hit the water at,

5:38

that can include speed. There's different factors. So you may not find

5:42

a lot of research. And trust me, I was struggling to

5:46

Absolutely. One thing that you had messaged me about was the

5:49

shoulder. The shoulder is definitely an injury that is found in

5:53

swimmers. And I was wondering when comparing,

5:57

because the shoulder injuries from the opinion articles out

6:00

there, expert articles out there on, let's say competitive swimming,

6:04

competitive diving, because that way we can narrow it down here in this conversation. So

6:10

like, how is, would you say from a

6:14

kinesthetic standpoint, because that's what we have right now in an anatomical

6:19

standpoint, how does the, could

6:22

the shoulder injury be different or

6:26

caused differently from just competitive swimming

6:30

to diving? Because competitive swimming, they are still diving in the

6:33

water, but it's just very low. So that's

6:39

I like it. I like it. Because when I was

6:43

doing research on this, I literally tried to put myself in your shoes. And

6:53

Well, no. Honestly, it strikes up good conversation, though. But to answer your question,

6:58

a lot of the times, in terms of differentiating between shoulder

7:02

injuries with swimmers versus divers, a lot of the time, shoulder injuries are

7:05

more overuse when

7:09

it comes to swimmers. When you look at an average competitive swimmer,

7:13

you're going to hear either somewhere between a, hey, this

7:16

is something I just started, or B, I've

7:20

been doing this for more than five years. And

7:23

the shoulder, you know, just anatomically, shoulders are more used for mobility

7:27

rather than stability. And already you're

7:31

having all the muscles trying to work with the laws of buoyancy and

7:37

I can't even talk right now, but it's fine. Just the laws pretty much of

7:41

water. And you're trying to build resistance. And then you have coaches

7:44

that you may have a different coach here and there type

7:48

thing that might train you differently because you're more of a sprinter in

7:51

terms of competitive swimming or you're more distant in terms of competitive swimming.

7:56

But anyway, it puts a lot of strain on your shoulders because I'm not

8:00

going to say that's all you use because you're using every muscle

8:03

in the body when it comes to swimming, literally. But

8:07

the ones that is predominantly used in this sport, regardless of how you use it,

8:11

are your shoulders. So a lot of times it is overuse. And

8:15

on top of that, if we're going to throw in just

8:19

daily living, How are you? Are you

8:23

a desk worker? Are you constantly slouching? So now you're putting your

8:26

shoulders in a more predisposed position. Are you

8:30

a multi-sport athlete? Because like me, I did three sports. I did swimming,

8:33

diving, and softball. So for my shoulders were just either,

8:38

I'm not saying pain all the time, but they were bothering me a little bit.

8:41

But on top of that, you know, I was a very studious person. So I'm sitting

8:44

like this all the time. And now

8:48

I'm older, and I look back, and I'm like, OK, now that makes sense. But

8:51

in the moment, you're not really thinking about that. And on top of that, it

8:55

wasn't until I was really 15, 16 where I started

8:59

training competitively, because my coach believed I could have made the Olympic trials, that

9:04

that's when he really took me on a different page with this, where

9:07

it wasn't just about pure water. Now you're talking about dry

9:11

land, which involves a lot of

9:16

plyometric movement. Sometimes it really is working on

9:19

just explosive power, or it's working on building up your upper

9:23

body strength, but not really focusing on keeping

9:27

the joint intact, but rather let's get you ready for competition. Versus

9:32

diving, it's more, it's less overused, more acute. A

9:36

lot of the times I would, if I injured

9:40

my shoulder, I injured my shoulder more with swimming than diving, but the times I didn't

9:43

injure it with diving, it was, I didn't, um,

9:47

place my hand, like, above my head where it should be. Uh, or...

9:51

Or your ergonomics. Yeah, uh-huh. So, like, in

9:54

diving, you have to place your, like, when you grab your hands like this, you have to

10:01

For those who are listening, what, what, what, uh, Veronica's

10:04

doing is raising her arms up right by her head. Yeah.

10:08

And saying that they, they, the arms... And squeezing your head as

10:13

Oh, you have to squeeze your head. Question, does it matter if

10:16

your shoulders are hiked up? That's

10:21

a good question. Because when you were just demonstrating now, your shoulders

10:25

went up to make it happen, to squeeze. It's harder

10:29

It's harder to squeeze, yeah. So even just

10:33

something as simple as that, that puts a shoulder at a predisposed position,

10:37

right? So now you're talking about, oh my god, Not

10:41

even like here now because I want as minimal water coming

10:46

Oh, that's why the arms need to squeeze the head so much when people point

10:54

That's another thing to take

10:57

it and that's why the research is very, very limited because with swimming,

11:02

I'm going to talk mainly from a sprinter standpoint, because that's what I specialize

11:06

in. I was a sprinter. It was explosive movement. It was

11:09

power. It was get to and from as quickly as

11:12

you can versus diving. There's three points that judges really

11:16

look at. Height in the jump,

11:22

the correct dive, somersaults, twists along that

11:25

line, and entry. We don't want a lot of splash. We want precision. And

11:30

there's a way to kind of give you the no splash

11:34

effect, and it's called ripping and diving. And pretty much what

11:37

that is, is the second your hands hit the water, you kind of have to like

11:41

fling the water to the side to bring the water down so it doesn't

11:45

cause a big splash. Yeah, it's a lot of

11:48

little intricate stuff. That's why it's like the reason you're

11:51

not going to find a lot right now because it's very hard to hone

11:59

in on what is it that I'm looking for. It's just going to be

12:02

a lot of expert opinions based on what they've worked with or if

12:08

Am I interrupting a

12:11

thought? Were you finishing a thought? OK. You got me thinking, just

12:14

hearing the three main components of diving, I started to

12:18

just compare it to competitive swimming. Because

12:21

competitive swimming, you're on your feet at the very beginning. Just

12:25

to get in the water. But that's it. That's the only time. Diving,

12:30

the first component that they're even judged on is that little

12:33

jump. So there could potentially be foot

12:42

And even with swimming, because this is totally off topic, but it

12:45

was more of a freak accident, but like I hurt my feet in swimming. No way!

12:52

I remember we were training, I was in high school,

12:55

we were training outside because preseason we train outside. Yeah. Outdoor

12:59

pool. And I remember the glare

13:03

from the sun blocked the wall. So I didn't really see

13:07

the wall. So I came in on my flip turn, and

13:13

Oh my gosh, that's a point where you contact with your feet, though. But I

13:17

forgot about that point of contact. That does happen every time you turn. Oh

13:23

Ow. Ow. Injuries are very interesting

13:26

in both of these worlds, because it's literally because When

13:30

you talk to somebody saying hey, I'm coming in because my knee hurts or hey,

13:33

I'm coming in because my shoulder and today I'm just gonna focus on shoulder You're

13:37

allowed to pick it pick it. Okay. When do you feel it? Do you feel it

13:41

in your hurdle? Do you feel do you feel it when you're throwing your arms back or forth?

13:44

Do you feel it when you're coming on your pull out

13:48

from an underwater? Like when do you feel it? Um, because

13:51

that gives you one is the resistance happening. Is it coming on an eccentric concentric action?

13:55

Is it more so? uh chronic has

13:58

this been happening for a very long time or did this just come about okay if

14:02

this came about what are you doing differently you're doing something differently are you

14:05

changing the cupping of your hand are you spreading out your fingers a little bit more

14:08

and you're trying to bring it together your body's used to something and now you're trying to change it

14:11

and your shoulder may not like it right now but is this to get better or

14:15

faster or are you doing this the wrong way or are you being taught the wrong way

14:18

so a lot of the times that's why it's like did

14:22

a freak accident happen or has this been happening for a very very long time in

14:25

both realms but a lot of the times with shoulder injuries with swimmers

14:28

it's going to be more of an overuse thing because even in warm-up you're

14:32

doing over a mile and a lot of the times especially

14:35

in club year-round programs practices are two hours so

14:40

you're doing a mile as your warm-up and swimming in

14:44

the first 10 to 15 minutes of practice and

14:47

give or take on how your coach is feeling that day. Either you can do a mile

14:51

warm-up and a five to seven mile main workout Or

14:58

you're doing maybe four miles. And on top of that, you're doing circuits.

15:02

Because I remember one practice that I had, it was

15:06

circuit day. And I liked it because you kept moving and you're doing different stuff.

15:09

So it didn't feel, in a sense, boring, for lack of better words.

15:12

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It didn't feel boring. I

15:16

crawled to the car one time, and my mom thought I was exaggerating, but

15:20

I'm like, do you know what we did? And she said, what? And I

15:23

said, this bench, we did elevated

15:26

pushups. This bench, we did squats. And then after

15:30

that, you get in the water, and each lane is a specific workout, whether

15:33

it's 10-200s, and I'll get to that in a second, freestyle

15:38

on three minutes or like whatever. And

15:42

each lane was different. And then on top of that, on the other side of the pool, there's like

15:45

three different circuits. And I'm like, we did that like five times. I

15:54

But it was worth it. Well, it makes sense you saying all this because it really

15:57

connects with overuse. So I get that more I want

16:00

to go back to something you said at the very beginning, comparing diving

16:04

and the different pieces of information you've said one

16:08

piece of information you said that's really stood out to me was that.

16:12

Shoulder is shoulders, it has stability and mobility but in swimming

16:16

you're talking about mobility so I kept thinking about that because we

16:19

always know we need stability, why are you saying that for for

16:23

mobility more so right away I'm thinking with diving. you

16:27

demonstrated to me when they bring their arms over their head for, you know,

16:30

where they hold the arms straight, squeezing there. They have

16:34

to, you're raising your shoulders as much as you can, AKA not

16:37

in that point of stable stability spot. It's not pulled

16:41

in there because the stability is actually almost like a, your

16:44

core and the squeezing of your head. You're like changing your point of

16:48

stability completely. And then in swimming,

16:52

And we're talking about the, you saying more mobility.

16:58

there it's when if I'm just thinking of freestyle alone

17:03

every time you reach you're not thinking oh let me keep

17:06

my shoulder in you're reaching it is a

17:10

reach every time and even as you're reaching right

17:13

now you can kind of feel that trunk rotation exactly oh yeah there's

17:17

trunk rotation yeah the trunks there's other things that's helping you because you're reaching so much

17:20

and also the arm you need to have that beautiful shoulder

17:24

extension to come up out of the water it's

17:27

almost like throwing in that when you're

17:31

swimming. So I can see where there's the

17:35

biomechanics, and we know there's more than just freestyle stroke, but

17:38

in the biomechanics alone are a different ask in

17:42

the shoulder diving compared

17:46

to swimming. But

17:51

then right when I was noticing the feet, the foot and ankle thing, The

17:57

board, and then you gave your story of actually I hurt my

18:00

foot and ankle just for my competitive swim and

18:03

and and on the turn and I've totally forgot about your

18:07

foot, like you having to push off, forgot

18:11

about that I forgot about that and then if you are what if you

18:20

It's now looking back at my journey, you know, when

18:23

you're growing up training, you always like question, like, why am I doing it? Like,

18:26

this doesn't make sense. And like, what? Like, I mean, I'm

18:29

doing it because he, like, my coach is telling me to, but like,

18:33

like, nothing makes sense. But okay, but now I get older. I'm like, that's why

18:36

I did that. So like, for example, You'll see

18:40

swimmers, when they're doing flip turns, you'll see them

18:44

count, essentially. Count towards the wall, or count the many strokes

18:47

that they're taking towards the wall, so they can understand the amount of

18:50

strokes they need to get their right foot placement on the wall. Because nothing

18:54

is worse than you not touching the wall and not getting a

18:57

push, or you're too close to the wall and now you're working

19:00

twice as hard and not getting the results that you want. And I'm

19:03

just like, dude, I remember just learning how to flip

19:07

turn. My coach just said, spell your name. Like that's the amount of

19:10

strokes you're going to take. And I'm like, okay. And it worked, but

19:16

But I was like, okay, yeah. I wonder if she

19:19

counted it briefly to be like, that's the amount of strokes

19:23

in this book. That's really funny. I was like, I

19:27

But I don't, I don't know. But at that time it worked.

19:31

But as I started getting taller, all of a sudden I was like, oh, I can't spell

19:34

my name anymore. I got to do this. Maybe a nickname may

19:41

Yeah, you got faster you got faster

19:44

as well. Absolutely. Exactly. I love that. That's really cool.

19:48

What other. We are getting close to the end of this podcast

19:51

because I do like to keep it short. Okay, what, and

19:55

because and yes for those who are listening Yes, are we a little bit scattered

19:59

on how we're connecting everything. Absolutely, because there is no format.

20:03

There is no format created right now. So we're just talking openly,

20:06

combining the ergonomics, the anatomy,

20:13

all these things, along with Ronnie's experience in

20:17

order to start just discussing things that could be seen.

20:21

So my last question for you is, aside from

20:24

the potentiality of foot and ankle injuries and the absolutely shoulder injuries,

20:28

which there is writing evidence of that, Did

20:31

you ever see other injuries elsewhere in the body,

20:42

Wait, what? OK. I have the

20:45

dance background, so you got it. Wait,

20:48

diving I think I could see. Is that one of them? I don't know if it's from diving.

20:53

Uh, head injuries with swimming as well sometimes. I'm

20:57

gonna take it back from, I'm gonna go back to my story, now just take

21:00

out the feet part. The glare is blocking the wall. And

21:05

on top of that, um... The glare is blocking the wall? I don't know

21:08

what that means. So like, my bad, so... The wall in

21:11

the pool was white, right? And the glare from the sun is blocking the

21:15

wall. So you may not see as you are.

21:19

And on top of that, you have to look straight down in order to keep

21:23

your body aligned that the way that it needs to be. You can't even even

21:27

remotely give up. You can give a little bit of cervical extension, but not

21:30

too much. Otherwise, it's going to create more resistance and

21:34

it's going to slow you down. So you're looking straight down. So that's why a lot of

21:37

the times swimmers count strokes to kind

21:40

of gauge where they're at in terms of the wall. So not

21:43

only in terms of foot plays before their flip turn, but just understand where am I.

21:49

So yeah, I've seen people just accidentally not

21:52

realize they're that close to the wall and boom, and I'm just like, okay. Yeah,

21:58

it wasn't it wasn't too too serious and like, or I've seen people

22:02

scratch their heads or I haven't seen too much. Um, but

22:05

actually I do remember one time, and I was in high school you're gonna laugh

22:09

at this, but pretty much our coach really loved how

22:12

we came about our me because we want our competition, and we.

22:17

And we were doing very well in practice and created a very great culture and everything. So

22:20

our coach let us play a game. And we

22:24

played Sharks and Meadows. And all of a sudden, we're all having a great time. And

22:27

all of a sudden, two seconds later, I hear screaming. And I'm

22:31

like, what is happening? And a girl dove

22:35

in the water not realizing there

22:38

was a girl underneath her. So pretty much, she

22:41

broke her nose and I think partially had

22:45

a not a fractured skull. What's she telling me? She definitely

22:48

broke her nose and I think a bruised lip

22:54

I was going to say concussion. I can see concussions happening for

22:58

And you know what the funny thing is? I saw that girl last year,

23:01

two years ago, because we had big sisters, little sisters, and that's one program. She's

23:08

Oh my gosh, I love that. When diving, I

23:11

said last question, but this is really the last question. When diving, I'm

23:16

assuming just like the arms have to be a little bit off for the head to be the

23:28

I don't know if you saw, but one of the best, one of the memories

23:31

for me that kind of made me a little bit scared of diving as I

23:35

got older and started realizing was Greg Louganis back

23:38

in the, what year was that? I think it was in the 80s, where

23:41

he hit his head on the diving board and got stitches right

23:44

then and there and continued going and kept going. Nothing happened. And

23:51

Wow. Oh, I can't anything dizzying.

23:55

That must have been she anything can be off from anything.

24:01

And that's the mechanics about it. You know, you have to understand the

24:05

physics about it as well. And that took a lot of time for me to

24:08

reach your proprioception and body awareness big stage. proprioception,

24:12

body awareness, and just understanding because even

24:15

now I didn't understand the physics of diving until I became a

24:18

coach and someone sat me down and explained this to me and I'm like, oh my God, that

24:21

makes so much more sense. Yeah. But like, tell me

24:25

to 13 year old Veronica, who's just trying to learn this and do

24:28

this. I'm not going to understand this. You're like,

24:31

huh? I just do what my coach tells me to do. Like, that's

24:35

what I'm taught. I'm taught to do what I'm told. But Yep. Yeah,

24:39

anything can bring you closer to the board than you anticipate that all

24:42

of a sudden there's the board and boom, or you break out

24:48

Oh, I can't thank you enough for coming on this was an absolute joy.

24:56

I have social media. I have Facebook, Veronica Canada on Facebook and

25:00

my face is right there. There's no... Perfect, perfect. Or

25:04

I have Instagram as well. My Instagram handle is RonnieWaterLife32, I

25:11

That's perfect. And we can reach out to you. I think that's wonderful. Thank

25:15

you. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your friendship. I'm

25:19

so grateful to have you on talking about this because you just know so much.

25:23

And then your passion is absolutely clear. So everyone

25:27

who is listening, if you ever have any questions or want to get more

25:30

insight, especially because of the lack of evidence, Ronnie

25:34

is your person for sure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.