0:15

herbie one john heilemann here and welcome to hell or

0:17

high water my podcast with a recount about politics

0:19

and culture on the edge of armageddon with

0:21

biggest my power is a residing geez we

0:23

have set of bhutan clan and the producer of are

0:25

dope see music and man and the

0:28

day is finally com v

0:30

one of only grace my seat back sack

0:32

so crater tell him how water she's that say swerve

0:34

you bad we miss you so much

0:36

i know we thought i was on a fender and

0:38

is true i did it had up

0:40

las vegas enough for the reason you think

0:43

i was off pooping in the n

0:45

b a summer league obviously

0:48

that's where we all knew i was gonna be a

0:50

oh god ok well i look forward to being drafted

0:52

and then rejecting the draft when any

0:54

team other than the boston celtics but you on i liked he

0:56

liked factual the project together they said that the

0:58

reason he doesn't like celtic fans with because they're racist

1:01

as fuck don't even comments don't even

1:03

comments your bank offset your

1:05

bag just in time just in time for our special

1:07

to part podcast the specialty

1:10

barn episodes with the one analyst smith

1:12

the democratic communications savant the

1:14

spend galley to p budaj and now the

1:16

author of this new crackling new

1:18

book that has all the political world talking any

1:21

given tuesday a political

1:23

love story it's her memoir seat

1:25

or early for someone to write a memoir like was that the

1:27

what are you know what do you about smith and us

1:29

and about this book what are you hearing race on the street

1:31

grammar her being so sharp

1:34

in the way that she was quick and people couldn't

1:36

keep up with her and sharp and the way that she would

1:38

fucking skewer you against a wall

1:40

if you are not prepared to handle her

1:42

that's what i remember from the tiny tiny campaign

1:44

where she was with people to judge i

1:46

kind of like in our in i'm in a reverence

1:49

and a little bit of fear and away so

1:51

i'm excited to hear about this book

1:53

description captures or exactly and this

1:55

book really convey is exactly what she's like

1:57

this a book that sounds like it's written by her

1:59

the highest kaufman a memoir and

2:02

i will say you know she's this has all her flavor

2:04

all of her her style old her

2:06

out she's and she's scrappy and she's tough

2:08

and she's smart and she's profane and

2:11

she also knows lot of things but herself and why she's

2:13

a political junkie and here's a little bit south of the

2:15

interview that kind of roster you know like

2:17

why she's in politics in what

2:19

makes her well suited this kind of life

2:21

on the campaign trail this what she said

2:23

i am a competitive mother

2:26

fucker like i will spend all night

2:29

as a blackjack table all night playing

2:31

chess i grew up playing chess i've

2:34

played sports or as a runner

2:36

i had a twin brother i think what anyone

2:38

who has a twin to tell you that

2:41

it really gives you have a very competitive

2:44

sides you because you're always competing

2:46

against each other and you everyone

2:48

for a comparing you to each other so

2:51

i do have sex and headed

2:53

gene i do have that adrenaline genes

2:56

were

2:58

right here i am light

3:01

running into metaphorical

3:04

burning buildings i

3:06

like the roller coaster of it because

3:09

it makes life makes lot more interesting and

3:11

it just so happens that these

3:13

two things that the part

3:15

my personally two things i care about sort of

3:17

merged into one with campaign

3:19

the river crisis junkie

3:21

the adrenaline addict

3:23

foul mouthed and a

3:25

little bit of a drama queen it's like basically of

3:27

the woman a woman right up your alley grace

3:30

there are my alley and i barely say these says

3:32

like after i encounter some one oh you totally

3:34

belong in politics because there's all these cowards

3:37

out there who should have no business involving

3:39

themselves in politics but she

3:41

definitely belongs in politics i

3:43

say that with confidence

3:45

hardaway and you know the book is full

3:47

of behind the scenes stories and hot

3:49

gas on all these democratic

3:51

candidates democratic candidates office holders were on a resume

3:54

you know she starts on her career very young workers like

3:56

sir mccaskill and terry mcauliffe and ted

3:58

strickland in all these kind of like

3:59

gov is a big states and then she moves

4:02

new york and she works in succession

4:04

she says of relationships with and works

4:06

for bill de blasio eliot

4:08

spitzer and andrew cuomo now that

4:10

is it an unholy trinity in my opinion

4:12

and i ask you can you imagine grace i mean you

4:14

had me for a boss and that's like bad enough

4:16

for you imagine working for not just one

4:19

of those guys but all three of that at one

4:21

point your career

4:22

no i would be was saying on some foreign

4:24

and southern southern italy at this point you

4:26

would absolutely never

4:27

the hearing for me ever again will

4:30

i will say in addition to having worked for all three

4:32

of those gentlemen see also in fact out

4:34

also romantic relationship as people may remember with

4:36

eliot spitzer after he was run

4:39

out of the governorship are because this prostitution

4:41

scan old that became like became cause celebs

4:43

a little whilst caused her to get fired

4:46

the door de blasio in one of the most kind of incredible

4:48

ridiculous acts that i have

4:50

many ridicules i've been told by the fire was myth

4:53

of sisyphus yeah to consensual relationship with eliot

4:55

spitzer might be raised the tops your

4:57

tops hear about that about part one of the podcast today

4:59

along with her stories about getting

5:01

into politics and all of that edr assessment

5:04

of the one six committee and it's work so far

5:06

and what we might had to look forward to on thursday

5:08

nights when they had their big prime time

5:10

hearing the back hearing prime time again and then

5:12

again part two we have was talking

5:14

about her relationships with people judge with andrew

5:16

cuomo sluts it's still

5:19

not that long ago they to cuomo guides hounded

5:21

out of government over had these the terrible me

5:23

to scandals he was involved and grace i now you're gonna what

5:25

you want the inside story of that

5:27

the spratly i feel like we just have not

5:29

even an arrest the upper

5:32

cross of how piece

5:34

of shitty this

5:35

the i was well

5:37

you've you've you wanna hear pieces yet

5:39

you're gonna enjoy reading this book

5:42

and despite as because was

5:44

loses video seats you once really like

5:46

the intercom other boy does he treat his staff

5:48

badly in is there a lot of collateral damage

5:50

left in the wake of that scandal so

5:52

listen without further ado we should get on

5:54

with this year with part one of the podcast dropping

5:56

right now part to dropping tomorrow is a special

5:58

two part episode was the author of any given

6:01

tuesday a political love story a woman who knows i

6:03

would say almost as much as you grace why seen

6:06

almost as much as you about

6:08

the place where politics and personality

6:11

allies in the ralph

6:22

after our last hearing they

6:25

didn't from try to

6:27

how a witness in our investigation

6:30

a witness you have not yet seen

6:33

in these hearings

6:35

that person decline

6:36

the answer or respond to president

6:39

trump's call and

6:41

instead alerted their lawyer to

6:43

the call their lawyer

6:45

alerted us

6:47

the committee has supply that information

6:49

to depart

6:50

of justice

6:52

let me say one more time

6:54

you will pay any effort to

6:56

influence witness testimony very

6:59

seriously

7:00

i would request he takes everything for users like super

7:02

super like by when you're not water heaters to take some

7:05

of them series lights were here is liz smith has got

7:07

this great new book any given tuesday a political

7:09

love stories that democratic political strategist

7:12

communications savant memoir

7:14

of the year there will be more important memoir

7:16

by democratic ah you know we

7:18

just as isis the nes

7:20

i'll take memoir of the century

7:23

them or the century mobile not lloyd i went

7:25

you really were twenty one and a half years into it so that's

7:27

fine that seems like a real fun yeah

7:29

i don't think i've seen used in person since

7:32

we were on no more together like a friday before

7:34

the election twenty twenty

7:35

yeah and remember i told you

7:38

i had a book deadline coming up and

7:41

you're like and whatever you do in here it's

7:43

good question the question as you know

7:45

writing a book is a very onerous

7:47

task so i was basically doing

7:50

anything i could to avoid meeting

7:52

deadlines although i did meet my deadlines

7:54

but that was awesome messiah

7:56

i'm super impressed that you met your headline i regard writing

7:58

books is like walking

7:59

through a burning building in a suit

8:02

soaked with gasoline is like the worst possible

8:04

thing to do years

8:05

there are no one how me that

8:06

i'm i'm and i got

8:07

get going into this and

8:10

i had a rule with my friends and family

8:12

like we can talk about anything

8:14

any unpleasant thing in life you cannot

8:16

ask me a single question about

8:18

my book because it's so

8:20

much anxiety and you're just sitting there at

8:23

your computer staring at displaying page imagine

8:26

yourself being a failure wondering how

8:28

are you going to fill all this stuff out and of course

8:30

i was able to base it was

8:32

physically painful was emotionally painful

8:34

it was a lot flat pm i got through

8:36

it i got three that i've spent fire

8:39

with shoot through the whole

8:41

that whole bad thing bad thing said just gonna be a two part

8:43

podcast because there's a lot to talk about buttons

8:45

what's going on the world and we're gonna talk about the book but i

8:47

want to get back to lose cheney cause like we play that sounds

8:49

he just wandered away from it because it was foods so delightfully

8:51

see you the one six committee these hearings have

8:53

happened people had various expectations for what

8:55

they were going to yield and i dunno everybody

8:57

i think i even people who were wake

9:00

me hope for that

9:02

they would break through the american people but not

9:04

optimistic because of the way the world

9:06

isn't and previous examples of democrats

9:08

fucking up impeachment hearings and not really ever breaking through

9:11

do you agree with the widespread assessment

9:13

that they have broken through

9:15

the and

9:16

if so why were they done better the

9:18

initiating i will ideas by just by yours

9:21

as a communications specialist

9:22

yeah so i like

9:25

how you describe your feelings toward

9:27

it's i was definitely

9:29

skeptical going into it after seeing

9:31

the impeachment hearings such as a person

9:33

peter and young which i thought was incredibly

9:36

and effective and to be honest

9:38

with you i don't think that adam schiff

9:40

is someone that we should be pointed out there on these

9:42

issues i think he's had a discredited himself

9:45

in some of the hearing sarah and they felt

9:48

like it was congress people just going to give diatribes

9:51

it felt very partisan and

9:53

partisan on facts this

9:56

one feels different

9:58

to me it feels different from the first if drunk

10:00

different from the second wants to me i think

10:02

part of it is because you

10:04

do have liz cheney involved and

10:07

man see you're right she is that

10:10

serious at all times spied

10:12

it takes away sort of the partisanship

10:15

that we had with though the first two

10:17

committees and what i like

10:19

to isn't they've been heavier

10:22

on evidence you're showing videos

10:24

from the days that we haven't seen before

10:26

bringing forward witnesses that we

10:28

haven't heard from before vs

10:31

just telling just what their opinions were

10:33

it's more showing it's and less telling

10:36

and some of the videos i've seen

10:38

some of the testimony has been

10:41

really really telling

10:43

and so telling think it's been more effective

10:46

i don't know how much it has broken

10:48

through with the american people

10:50

with don't know how much it's going to impact

10:53

the elections the do think

10:56

the big affected it could have is

10:58

rallying the republican elites

11:00

the big have republicans to say we

11:03

can't run donald trump again because

11:05

the picture that has come through here

11:08

more so than ever before is that

11:10

he is completely unhinged she

11:12

is a mad man and he should

11:14

be and no position of power

11:16

you should even be a dog catcher let alone

11:18

present the united states

11:20

three the leg irons you've yes may by schwab

11:22

that they ask you know the

11:25

do this or thirty years it's like a problem of congressional hearings

11:27

in general is that the congress people forget

11:29

with the point the hearing as they need their time

11:31

they want to get their opening statements they want to ask their questions

11:33

enough the repetitive you know they're just mostly

11:36

about themselves and in this case they've

11:38

done some things that are totally sensible

11:41

but also for a democratic congress people are unheard

11:43

of like really been like we don't need to give helping statement

11:45

i just need to be every hearing let

11:48

somebody drive the car at every hearing and

11:50

then the things been obviously constructed like a prosecution

11:52

and like a television show there's a bunch tv professionals

11:55

have been working on this and they've made it like a

11:57

premium cable series and

11:59

that

11:59

she because good example of

12:01

they don't like a little cliffhanger at the end of every hearings

12:04

that's what she says the end of the last year and the

12:06

i finally woke up and what oh yeah this is storytelling

12:08

before going up to people's attention and make our point

12:11

we gotta tell this like a story

12:12

totally agree with had an i

12:14

was can imagine that the top i didn't wanna

12:16

be like a congressperson time

12:18

the

12:19

but it has been

12:21

compelling and we're both people in the media

12:23

and when you're doing a convention

12:26

or when you're doing a tv show like the circus

12:28

it's good to like sort of have different

12:30

concept that you're throwing up people so

12:33

when you have less cheney talking spin

12:35

you have a video of from a deposition

12:37

send you a video from the day i have a

12:39

police officers on the scene are saying and

12:42

then you have people testifying

12:44

in person it's sort of satisfies

12:47

the like , d d

12:49

eighty eight see of the modern

12:52

information consumer and i

12:54

would say it has exceeded my

12:56

expectations and i

13:00

you believe that because of the way that they've

13:02

handled that that they have been able

13:04

probably to on earth more

13:06

material and root out more

13:08

witnesses then if

13:10

they had conducted this way they had

13:13

some of their earlier impeachment hearings

13:15

the web to get mad at me and will get mad at you if

13:17

you agree with me about this the reality as this

13:20

is the ultimate gift for them because she

13:22

does a republican to cheney and they were

13:24

skeptical then she turned out to be more hardcore

13:27

about like and charges against trump or anybody else

13:29

on the committees and they learn something

13:31

else was which i know you know which is

13:33

like it just is the case he

13:35

can talk about what should be versus

13:37

the how i am focused on what is what is is

13:39

that the press

13:41

read stories differently when they

13:43

have a least some element bipartisanship to them at the

13:45

press has been on the side of the me i think rightly

13:47

so and it all transmitted crimes that should never be present

13:49

against like the worst ever happen in american history but

13:51

it is the case that with a discovered was how useful

13:54

she was she gets a curing

13:56

the on television in a way

13:58

that adam schiff issues our could go for

14:00

is a democrat absher futures by i'm jamie raskin

14:03

are smart up at are some smart guys but the press

14:05

emilio or coils and goes i could just democrats

14:07

going up or down trump again and when they hear was shady

14:09

they treated differently i think democrats woke up there were

14:11

oh she's on our side and

14:14

she's a really useful tool in

14:16

terms of getting this worked

14:18

no i agree and he i'm

14:20

i'm not completely surprised because

14:22

there is a thing to the as zealand's

14:24

the convert addicts and i've

14:26

seen there's certainly with my friends

14:29

who had been republicans

14:31

and when they turned against

14:33

trump and modern trump is and they're

14:35

like more hard for than i am so i'm

14:37

i'm not completely surprised

14:40

that cheney has been that way but i have

14:42

been very impressed with her and a year

14:44

ago i would have you made like

14:46

a bomb at motion if you'd asked me

14:48

about liz cheney i think bennie thompson

14:50

has been guides he's got sorted out all

14:52

country lawyer thing to him that i like

14:55

fights there's no doubt that

14:57

when you are going up and making an argument

14:59

against a republican

15:01

president former republican presidents that

15:04

having republicans

15:06

do it is more effective than having

15:08

a partisan gemma

15:09

yeah i guess it i'm not in a

15:11

way demeaning day thompson i think he's a fine chairman

15:13

the committee's doing a good job i got was

15:15

a democratic committee know how

15:17

powerful out for english and english ben to their

15:19

cause so excuse me really good point about

15:21

the power of republicans talking about aren't on the

15:23

thing that blue people's minds with all these for

15:26

trump administration officials or publicans or people

15:28

were for donald trump oily for a long time including possible

15:30

and you finally decide to give an interview or

15:32

them giving testimony about my daves now

15:34

known as the unhinged meeting december

15:37

eighteen to twenty to twenty the oval office in which

15:39

you have the genuine nut cases are high

15:41

in omega boom in your city pals and usually

15:43

on his and your mike's wins all in their late at night

15:45

try to convince donald trump to like sees

15:48

ballot boxes let's say this little bit a savvy

15:50

i want to play possibility erik hersman

15:52

and dark lines three lawyers

15:54

in trump's world all republicans on how

15:56

many telling the story of the unhinged hearing

15:58

was by that

15:59

the do more

16:01

and i walked in

16:03

what you man

16:05

sydney hours sitting there

16:08

i have used to the people in

16:11

the oval office that one point

16:13

the

16:15

general flynn took out a diagram

16:19

that supposedly showed a

16:22

few years is all over the world

16:24

and

16:25

i've been oh is who was communicating with whom

16:27

v the machine and uncommon about

16:29

like nest thermostat been hooked up to the internet

16:32

in a times there were people shouting

16:34

at each other hurling insults

16:36

at each other

16:38

them

16:40

it wasn't just sort of people sit around

16:43

accounts like the chatting

16:45

when you get people walk and it was late at night have been a

16:47

long day and what

16:49

they were proposing i

16:51

don't was nuts the descriptions

16:53

of this meeting was insane we've been innovation

16:56

that he meetings you know how this tends things getting pluto

16:58

campaigns and a white house's dot

17:00

never heard anything like all these crazy

17:02

people screaming at each other top their lungs

17:05

and talking about things like you know seizing

17:07

ballot boxes the down from

17:09

goes up some that tweet and ruff to the races

17:11

yeah and i to access

17:14

to test

17:14

oh yeah oh please no yes i'm not only

17:16

can you cause you must

17:17

i've been in some that

17:20

shit

17:21

behind the scenes me and i've worked

17:23

in upper manhattan and you can only imagine some

17:25

the shit of saints for her name or

17:27

one has had to be called but that

17:30

sounded like it was a mix of the star wars

17:32

var seen dr strangelove

17:35

and veep and you can't

17:37

even imagine that this is real this is

17:39

happening in the white house

17:42

these people are having these completely

17:44

cockamamie schemes that

17:47

you almost have to laugh about you

17:49

would laugh about if it weren't

17:51

something weren't something if

17:53

someone had just produce that

17:55

seen spur movie spur

17:57

t v show people were said

17:59

know that some that's not realistic

18:01

but it really is this task of just

18:04

lunatic characters that

18:07

should not be allowed within a

18:09

thousand yards of the white house

18:12

the committee's very focused also met like their attitude

18:14

is a pace without can avert thirty

18:16

percent of republican party if you think the twenty twenty one

18:19

twenty four very important license additions moxie

18:21

they are like really focused on trying to like move the needle bike

18:24

two or three percent it is peel off enough

18:26

republican supports that it's in close

18:28

races they're focused on that they're not

18:30

focused on trying to chase hearts and minds the mega faithful

18:33

they're just try to find those republicans you talked about before

18:35

the ones who are always uneasy with trump and

18:37

now i can you tip them over and make them be like

18:39

okay

18:40

the

18:41

yeah and this is where i think you can come into

18:43

play and twenty twenty two

18:45

as democrats are smart is

18:48

to make the connection between

18:50

what these people dead and twenty twenty how

18:52

they try to overturn the election androids

18:54

or direct line between that and a

18:56

lot of the candidates running and twenty twenty two

18:59

dog mascherano in pennsylvania tutor

19:01

jackson in michigan terry like

19:03

in arizona they're all running

19:05

for governor rebecca cliche some

19:08

wisconsin they're all lessons and ayers

19:10

stay are all the people who will you

19:12

can help have the power to invalidate

19:15

stage twenty twenty four election

19:17

if they so please and so we need

19:19

to draw direct line between what was done

19:21

then what could be done and twenty

19:24

twenty four if we elect

19:26

some of these extreme gubernatorial candidates

19:28

and neo secretary of state candidates to

19:31

office because that's the

19:33

ball game their dog mastery i know if

19:35

he becomes governor that could be the ballgame

19:38

because this would i want to throw

19:40

out the twenty twenty result she

19:42

went to the capital on the sexy by the people

19:44

there and same with these other gubernatorial

19:47

candidates i mentioned that's where i

19:49

really see the electoral impact

19:51

and i imagine that you will see some

19:53

of these twenty two campaigns using

19:56

these hearings for advertising in that sense

19:58

the i'm hoping woman

19:59

found before we leave one six committee is a someone

20:02

who we might get here from or might not have here

20:04

from will see steve bannon desperately

20:06

offering to testify be as very specific

20:08

terms and conditions size i'll works

20:11

yeah where the witnesses get to decide the

20:13

terms under which they testify by his

20:15

always man with a high degree of self regard embryo

20:18

in confidence so thirsty ban on his

20:20

worm podcast last week talking

20:22

about that's why not just buying and

20:25

selling incredibly complex romance who's

20:27

watching happened what is in happening

20:29

here is up and tells us pray

20:32

for our enemies okay pray

20:34

for because we're going medieval on these people savage

20:37

our enemy surprise for them and we'll see but

20:39

this committee what happens this afternoon but hey my

20:41

office out there was a good here's what i

20:43

need give me a date

20:46

a time or room number a microphone

20:48

in a holy bible i can take the oath

20:52

deliver that and we'll see how good you are a little jamie

20:54

raskin and liz cheney and all of a servant

20:58

okay so again three kitchen strategist

21:00

or excellence listener

21:02

the see been a genius or a lunatic

21:04

or both

21:05

i'm gonna go with

21:07

for nine a good way

21:10

out the same megalomaniac as

21:12

mary i'm doing what i did without it because

21:14

i thought i was obvious i mean yes

21:16

higher self regard than michael jordan

21:18

who at least deserves sad that level of self

21:20

regard listened to his language i

21:22

mean that sounds like someone who is clearly

21:25

detached from reality as way too much self importance

21:28

probably doesn't look in the mirror and asks

21:30

ah from an genius

21:33

about it was smart about it and

21:35

i don't think he'll succeed with s is

21:37

he's clearly trying to get a public hearing

21:40

and go in front of congress

21:42

and he knows that would get probably

21:44

monster ratings and then he would be able

21:46

to say a lot of gonzo's

21:48

it's shit that appeals to his

21:50

cultists followers that sort

21:53

of lights subsets worst elements

21:55

of the white nationalist pow boy

21:58

whatever and he could coded

22:00

language man my

22:02

view on why he wants to do

22:04

that is a gin something

22:06

op's use it as a platform

22:09

for him to said hateful

22:11

things suspend lies maybe

22:13

to convert more people to what

22:15

he's trying to do so it's

22:17

a brilliant play on his part in that way

22:19

but it is extremely dangerous

22:22

and i think that it would be

22:24

obviously wrong headed to given that sort of

22:26

platform

22:28

i guess will appear the episode

22:30

one part one of the bike as up your i'm on

22:32

the day that your book any given tuesday which were about

22:34

start talking about and even to see a political i'm story comes

22:36

out

22:36

that's also two days before what is

22:39

as of now the last scheduled one six

22:41

committee hearing they're going prime time

22:43

thursday they have been taking advice

22:45

from smart people agree with you i don't know what impact will

22:47

have in the and but i think it's broken through was like i hear people

22:49

have been main right now even who are watching

22:51

the hearings are suing about the hearings as part

22:54

of their storytelling strategy has been to break through

22:56

that way i think that's the smarts is more reverb

22:58

in the culture than there was for either the first

23:00

two impeachment hearings the no doubt about that what

23:02

the impact of that as i don't know what would you say

23:05

to them about what do you need to do

23:07

now it is giving the last time going to make a public

23:09

case here on television these

23:12

are a few the things you've gotta get done here this

23:14

was your focus on this is what should be the

23:16

metric of success

23:17

this is a juggler abusive be grabbing for

23:19

satisfied

23:20

what i regard for his i did you ever

23:22

watch game of thrones

23:24

oh yeah sure every was hours a

23:26

day i may i be be out of it lives by not so out

23:28

of it's ib those episodes was that

23:30

why are know you're in our new a baby

23:32

boomer

23:33

oh no you're so mean i got

23:35

a new a know ever so even though so in love

23:37

with i just have just be mean to me okay guy

23:40

we know my favorite xanax are so

23:42

you know that scene where to neris just

23:44

go it's like fall on

23:46

it gets the dragons

23:48

bernie actually burning everything surprised

23:50

that everything difference all down

23:52

though is i think it's gotta be something

23:54

like that and state been

23:56

building up building up building

23:58

up and now think my

24:00

expectation is that there's gonna be

24:03

something very directly tying

24:05

donald trump to all this whether

24:08

it's a recording of ham video

24:11

something that is

24:13

beyond a smoking gun i

24:15

, tell you when i watched the first hearing i thought

24:18

it was pretty good my view

24:20

would have they should have led maybe with

24:22

more direct evidence connecting

24:24

trump to death for now i sort

24:26

of see what they're dealing which is that

24:28

it's almost scripted like a season

24:30

of game of thrones where

24:32

it builds you've got a compelling

24:34

introduction but each episode draws

24:37

you in more and more and

24:39

i think that this is a lion this

24:41

, be the climax and i

24:44

expect to see some direct the

24:46

evidence and real criminal activity

24:48

from amps that won't break

24:50

through my advice to them would be

24:53

you gotta have something that brings it directly

24:55

back to the oval

24:56

right in your advice it also be to to shift from

24:59

game of thrones to my current tell visual obsession

25:01

which is a show called the bear am

25:03

i got better at it was it

25:05

your best i can show with history the world where there's

25:07

got renewed for sides is thank god you guys at

25:09

just as if if our bird fx to the

25:11

ground if they hadn't renewed americans but americans will

25:13

say the theme of that show is let it rip

25:16

and rip think that building your has i use like don't

25:18

leave any clubs in the bag don't leave any gas

25:20

in the tent it's all an ally

25:22

yeah we thought of things that they're tapes

25:24

rate you gotta think that there's something

25:26

else politics everyone keeps

25:29

everyone at some point i always assume

25:31

when i'm in the room that someone's taping some length

25:33

either for the feds or for their own file

25:35

this you know right now was were taping this to

25:37

serious guidelines

25:38

i have a health

25:40

and safety for alerting me today and

25:43

beforehand that's are my hunch tells me

25:45

i open on overselling and i don't want to disappoint

25:47

your listeners by i

25:49

think it is can be something that direct

25:51

i gotta say those guys have been very thoughtful

25:53

about what they've done so far it every single here he's had

25:55

something that has been like whoa fuck and

25:58

it's hard to believe they don't have something else what

26:00

it years

26:01

and when we see huge sorry to

26:03

take over and ask you questions by it's

26:05

like she's you was was

26:07

the most compelling part of that

26:09

i thought some of the stuff

26:12

i mean everything has been compelling in different ways

26:15

but

26:16

the one that hit me hardest in some ways was listening

26:18

to

26:19

the berries election workers who ben yeah

26:22

have proven that harass intimidated

26:24

or very human to me to hear from these people

26:26

who just like i'm just there to try to help democracy

26:28

work and then they were getting docs to and

26:30

chased and threatened and i mean of him

26:32

we we both know it is like to have a mob apps you at some

26:34

point but like these were people would not

26:36

sign up for that particular entertainment

26:39

i felt for them you know like i when heard their voices

26:41

really ever before and it's not like and inside

26:43

baseball thing but i do think for some normal human

26:45

beings in america watching they be like

26:47

fuck man these people really

26:49

are bad painting credible price that when river

26:51

grapple with the for

26:53

i totally agree about you know

26:55

i guess and serve a basic bitch here

26:57

i think that as a cast the hudson

26:59

oh wow yes

27:01

that's but also said what she

27:03

said about that would there was also this

27:05

video from that day i think it was from

27:07

the radio and police were the pointing

27:09

out that

27:10

it's really happy i am that as

27:12

that's a gave me goosebumps because

27:15

there's something about reading about

27:17

something in a newspaper vs

27:19

, seeing it on tv and

27:21

your of eve these guys up there

27:24

there into the air for teens and you're like

27:26

holy shit this is really bad

27:29

and i think that done a really effective job

27:31

of making it seem like it wasn't

27:33

just a bunch of rag

27:36

tag lonely and sell

27:38

guys stalling and to get se

27:40

there's some dangerous people involved here and that

27:42

and lot of people's well being

27:44

with us

27:46

or i really think quick break it will be right back with

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32:41

welcome back to helena water ago

32:43

, were shipped years now and start zoc

32:47

a nice long discussion of this

32:49

book which this book congratulations you before

32:51

frame the book any given to stay afloat a love story bellis

32:53

method out today

32:55

everyone who has raised the politics whatsoever as opposite

32:57

going to read or a they don't need a sales pitch for me but

33:00

even if you're if you're not an insider you want to read

33:02

this book because it turns out that well

33:04

as smith all the personality that you have

33:06

in life and as a professional comes to on

33:08

the page

33:09

you know it's funny i never thousand

33:11

right above sites when i got to writing

33:13

the proposal i wrote my first

33:15

drafted a proposal on my agent sewn

33:18

harris with i see i'm calls me was like

33:22

this this , this

33:24

isn't this isn't working for me and

33:26

i think wind is like i don't know

33:29

you're like writing more like henry james

33:31

and fuckin liz smith and fuckin

33:33

look at it and it's like does

33:35

this is how it is and so

33:38

what what it did was i just laugh

33:40

and did rewrote it as rewrote how

33:42

as would talk and how i would tell friends at

33:44

a bar and everyone always says that about

33:47

writing spies it's hard

33:49

to first time you ever write a book and my

33:51

experiences never writing stuff in my

33:53

voice it's writing stuff and people who

33:55

judges voice or yes terry

33:57

mcauliffe's or is marta malice voice whatever

33:59

it is so i had never written

34:01

in my voice the foreign usually

34:03

my voice is not the voice of one that

34:05

you written a press release

34:07

you're from new york you go

34:09

to dartmouth once you're on the edwards

34:11

campaign this will teach you a little bit in two thousand and

34:13

four does he does need every campaign the one

34:15

to sounds like yeah it's an important distinction

34:17

because in two thousand four hundred was a somewhat like of what

34:19

you as an eight not so much and then you're off to

34:21

the races right you'd jump in a very young

34:23

age you are working for a series of people karma

34:25

casco and terry mcauliffe and jon corzine and

34:28

ted strickland all these big state politicians

34:30

and here's my question

34:31

given how fast your rise was resold

34:34

they're all losing the races that european

34:35

and how national i did time basso slow

34:38

added that loser to

34:39

but are you know but these are he last election

34:41

do not have a great win loss record but but

34:43

i wanted to learn interned at some point by now

34:45

dead while obama relationship is a good way

34:48

to turn your fortunes around you stick with barack obama

34:50

but let me go back to the first thing for you come flying

34:52

out dartmouth into

34:54

all these jobs jobs jobs jobs that

34:56

high profile within our world it

34:59

leads back to the question which is any given tuesday

35:01

political love story when he was about politics what

35:03

was it that said you out of dartmouth with that

35:05

degree of like i'm in this is what

35:07

i want to be doing and i am going

35:09

to do it both a wall fell through

35:11

a metal the way you did right outta college

35:13

we have very much hesitation or uncertainty of there

35:16

was some love thing going on there what was that

35:17

yeah so i

35:20

live in a family were both of my parents

35:22

were very politically engaged my

35:24

mom was hard for democrats

35:27

my dad was you know a quintessential swing

35:29

voter he voted for break

35:32

into ties and clinton

35:34

two times and bush and carries

35:37

so you know he flipped every

35:39

election but growing up they would take

35:41

me to political than their big

35:43

cel bradley supporters all of that but

35:45

when i really fell in love was

35:48

love think i was nine

35:50

or ten years old when the

35:52

documentary the war room came out man

35:55

isi it i was like oh my

35:57

god this is what

36:00

wanna do for a living usually

36:02

, you've seen lilies about hard

36:04

eggs for documentaries about politics they're

36:06

all focus on the politician this

36:09

one it was one it where the position

36:11

is like a supporting actor i

36:13

saw just sort of the great

36:15

the passion the adrenalin the

36:18

love of the game but more importantly the love

36:20

of what they were doing and the importance of they are

36:22

doing of it people james

36:24

carville and george stephanopoulos and

36:26

to that was really what sorts birth

36:29

planted in my mind i really wanted to

36:31

politics but my parents had

36:33

instilled in me that politics

36:36

wasn't just a game it is something

36:38

that impacts everyone's lives it touches everyone's

36:40

lives whether you like it or not

36:43

so i give them a lot of credit

36:45

or why i decided to get involved

36:48

and is one of the reasons why i chose

36:50

dartmouth because homeless

36:52

first as a nation primary and at

36:54

dartmouth are is the presidency young democrats

36:57

most girls got a dartmouth join a sorority

36:59

and don't get me wrong i was out every wednesday

37:02

friday and saturday night playing beer pong

37:04

spies might already was young

37:06

democrats and i started a student

37:08

group for john edwards i

37:11

just love politics because she to be so

37:13

young that you're nineteen your

37:15

twenty you're twenty one you're

37:17

traveling the country for a presidential candidate

37:19

knocking on doors and your maybe you're just

37:21

game them a vote if you were there but

37:24

you're part of something big your

37:26

part of something important your part of something

37:28

hetty your part of something that could

37:30

change people's lives and

37:33

i looked around at my friends in college who

37:35

god bless them were being interns at

37:37

white shoe law firms or investment

37:40

banks and i don't think that they had

37:42

that sort of feeling about their job and

37:45

i knew that at least the candidates the

37:47

things i was going out for that they could help

37:49

maybe and the war in iraq or

37:52

get us better healthcare and

37:54

really do two things to change people's lives

37:56

i'll never cast any data aspersions

37:58

on someone's of idealism bad because you're helping

38:00

the country because i know that you're sincere about all

38:02

that but also it's just a case that like everything i know

38:04

about you you're an adrenalin junky are very compelling

38:07

you're like there's all these other elements citizens are also

38:09

true which is like a lot of that was about waiting

38:12

and winning you say throughout the book that you like

38:14

a good scrappy like to be in the mud you know like to be

38:16

the most of pigs but you're not free to get dirty

38:18

there's up a sign of a personality type and

38:20

service with james and and george another

38:23

people in the worms let were like yeah

38:25

we want help the country that's why we're doing this

38:27

we can make more money doing something else but

38:29

there's also a a temperamental quality

38:31

of scrappers fighters

38:34

bruisers and people who liked to right

38:37

and a be able to see who wins or loses on the scoreboard

38:39

on election night it's not like there's a lack of clarity

38:41

about who's won despite about did you what is without

38:44

his litter is a loser you're on one team

38:46

or the other i think it that obvious if it's your personality

38:48

and that's completely true

38:50

and i didn't mean to sorry gloss over that's

38:53

at age nine or hey i

38:55

, that's exactly how i was thinking

38:57

i don't the ghosts and adrenaline junkie

39:00

quite yet of course

39:02

i am a competitive mother

39:05

fucker like i will spend all night

39:08

as a blackjack table all night playing

39:10

chess i grew up playing chess i've

39:13

played sports or as a runner

39:15

i had a twin brother i think what anyone

39:17

who has a twin it's to tell you that

39:20

it really gives you have a very competitive

39:23

sides you because you're

39:25

always competing against each other and

39:27

you everyone for a comparing you to

39:29

each other so i do

39:32

have that competitive scene competitive do have that

39:34

adrenaline genes were

39:37

i'm like crises

39:39

i like running into

39:42

metaphorical burning buildings

39:45

or i like to roller coaster of it because

39:48

it makes life makes lot more interesting and

39:50

it's just so happens that these

39:52

two things that the report

39:55

my person i two things i care about sort of

39:57

mario into one with him

39:58

so okay the region

39:59

the reason this book about claire mccaskill

40:02

about term costs about concourse

40:04

him strickland all those people

40:06

when i guess how many of them because that would be like a seven hour

40:08

podcast oh by the book average by the book the

40:10

barack obama campaign also about i'm

40:12

i'm relationship in were well as meets david

40:14

axelrod into tix are under his wing to some extent

40:17

these are all in sync story

40:18

what i want to play a little pieces sound right now

40:21

as a way of getting into a different

40:23

kind of crisis a crisis that in

40:25

part due directly was and

40:27

that he's been a decent our time on in

40:30

the book so you better come in new york

40:32

come back to new york our you grew up and

40:34

into a thirteen you work

40:37

on eliot spitzer his campaign

40:39

for comptroller eliot spitzer former governor

40:41

of new york poop basically got hammered

40:43

out of politics because the prostitution

40:45

scandal

40:46

he runs for comptrollers he

40:48

loses in the democratic primary you then

40:50

go and work for bill de blasio who that same

40:52

year and twenty thirteen is running for mayor and

40:55

after de blasio wins but before

40:57

he takes office there's a

40:59

sort of tabloid frenzy

41:01

around the fact that you dad started

41:03

a personal relationship romantic relationship with

41:05

spitzer and when

41:08

that comes to light de blasio kind

41:10

of on believe weights spires you and

41:12

so you're now out of a job he now

41:14

becomes the new mayor of new york city in

41:16

january of twenty fourteen and now

41:18

this the santa want to get to here shortly thereafter

41:21

ah you are on television

41:24

we'll talk more about the whole scandal at scandal second but

41:26

here you're on television a new york one local

41:29

television and you're and you're

41:31

your pundit doing and punditry here and you

41:33

are asked to comment about

41:35

your former boss who had just fired

41:38

you build a blasio and how he handled

41:40

his first snowstorm as

41:43

mayor of new york city always a big challenge for

41:45

every new mer let's hear what you had to say

41:47

i didn't see because i think it was

41:49

a very challenging week and

41:52

bucks a day idea of this honeymoon

41:54

as and anyone who saw that the near

41:57

post has gonna give know the blasio

41:59

the honeymoon is seriously the rains

42:02

and i think that said new york media engine

42:04

i'm not inclined to the partners

42:07

and honeymoon

42:08

yeah i mean that is certainly true lives what

42:10

you said their new york media is not inclined

42:12

to give politicians and certainly not

42:14

new mares of of the city honeymoons

42:17

but it's also the case that you are not especially

42:20

sensitive a honeymoon to bill de blasio

42:22

add you know you brought the hammer down there are so

42:25

lucky people now you ,

42:27

ball fell experts are it was it

42:29

scandal people may a lot out of

42:31

the was you eventually parted ways with you in a very unceremonious

42:34

way the described in the bucket no love lost between

42:36

the two of you are you tell the story what you want

42:38

but what i really want to hear from you because i

42:40

think it's it's there's really is an interesting important

42:43

thing in this beyond the details are that

42:45

lurid there but they certainly whenever and about

42:47

as i target a tabloid story the everything

42:49

sees more lower than early as by

42:51

what you learned from that

42:53

go to the worst experience of your life and the intersection

42:55

of money and politics i think i know what

42:57

you learn from it just reading the book but i'm curious

42:59

what you think you think back on it now with a decade

43:01

behind you you're young

43:03

no guarantee that it was it became a national story

43:06

he didn't have a fast rising politics i know it's sort

43:08

of at a very scary experience sub again

43:10

i give you the floor doubt it's have told ever

43:12

parts of that's are you want and but also contrary to get

43:14

you when you think you learn from it on the

43:16

backside of

43:17

yeah on any could

43:19

have been and a lot

43:22

of people who go through those

43:24

sorts of experience leave the best asked

43:26

his are like goddamn yeah oh this

43:28

is all falls or i'm never gonna get higher

43:31

again things i learned

43:33

i talk about this in my books but

43:35

when i sat down with bill de blasio

43:38

i've never for

43:40

than since then had

43:43

an interview with someone were

43:46

i had that's faith

43:48

and then to do the duties

43:51

of their job less faith in their

43:53

leadership skills and

43:56

behind the scenes of the campaign

43:59

isi act in ways that

44:02

as that where i describe

44:04

on is childish but he would berate

44:06

and fully staffers for

44:08

the smallest things like typos

44:11

in briefings whether his

44:13

coffee was hard enough or not

44:16

i remember one time i was speaking

44:18

with a cipher and be

44:20

aware hand feed from de blasio

44:23

and divisor came over any sex sex

44:25

and puts his arm around us is like lives

44:28

you get a pass to this only your second

44:30

day you do not and

44:32

search for writing the cipher side

44:35

you're you're doing right

44:36

you're speaking with in my earshot

44:39

then you know what i have very heavy

44:42

being on my mind

44:45

i'm gonna be mayor thirty

44:47

days and logistics

44:50

your issues that logistics yeah logistics don't

44:52

need to hear them

44:53

right and the theme

44:55

enemy in a world that assume that some

44:58

other people i suspect

44:59

the

45:01

i knew this is

45:03

not a good guy and that right not

45:05

someone who was going to be a great executive

45:07

because like how are you going to be dealing

45:09

with a nine eleven if you can't

45:12

deal with someone speaking ten feet away

45:14

and you say that they're in your earshot would i

45:16

should have learned more of is one that

45:18

alarm bells go off road don't

45:20

go and work for someone like

45:22

that was but i'd say that because

45:26

you know next to white house press secretary

45:28

like new york city press secretary

45:30

is a pretty big job and i will

45:32

right right

45:33

and yeah and so i put my ambition

45:36

first even know behind

45:39

closed doors to my family and friends

45:41

and friends say the guy's the clowns

45:44

you know one of the perfect of enemy the good

45:47

but well as usual i was don't work for

45:49

candidates who don't fundamentally respect read

45:51

and that's one that's a good lesson

45:52

one and then the other thing is

45:55

then when everything came down alien

45:57

down alien been going out and

45:59

we the to have been building up

46:02

making our relationship feel introducing

46:05

him to my parents my family's

46:07

him introducing me to his family

46:10

during the for a normal things you do in a

46:12

relationship it was sort of a plan that then

46:14

of course the word not

46:17

announcer relationship

46:18

added some point people that like the right

46:20

we didn't have

46:22

that opportunity it turned out bro

46:24

that's a new york post's photographer

46:28

daves had been in

46:30

a car across from my so

46:32

how apartments to sit waiting

46:35

and snapping photos of elliot leaving

46:37

my part man mealy been my

46:38

man speak out as they can get

46:40

sick does

46:41

yep so i stayed down and

46:44

i got word of this about

46:46

and it was eight days before de blasio

46:49

swearing and it was the first time

46:51

where i was going handling

46:53

crisis or someone asks you where i

46:56

was the crisis and

46:58

i saw it's that while because

47:00

i'd help politicians

47:02

with crises in the past the outside do

47:04

you eyes illegitimate children

47:07

who are you know extramarital affairs

47:09

with every one out whatever it as

47:11

handle that

47:12

the seven deadly sins and every was if

47:15

he violet aids and commandments are even more perfect was

47:17

do committed in the seven deadly sins list

47:19

mrs romance a judge

47:21

then when you do and i do it's

47:23

a sort of and no judgment zone it's

47:25

just you just listen of people

47:27

and try to help them get through starts fighting

47:30

i saw it's that

47:32

okay well , can handle this

47:34

myself myself i remember getting

47:36

wholesome reporters from people

47:38

at different firms a complex boyfriends

47:41

being like you need help doing this

47:43

and i was so mortified

47:46

at being out there that it would suck i almost

47:48

want to talk to anyone else i'm like okay well

47:50

i'm in handle it myself and

47:53

what i learned is that you can be

47:56

the back maybe it what you do them are really

47:58

good at what you do but you

48:01

can't handle your own crises be really

48:03

can't handle your own pr and

48:05

that it is as an extreme

48:08

concept of interest i

48:10

don't know whether it's huber

48:11

right

48:13

embarrassment else is it's just embarrassing

48:15

then to like talk to people about genius

48:18

i'm on it would have the podium like you

48:21

like in a bunker you know sir

48:23

that i saw

48:26

the story line go away from me

48:28

the story line and i will usually control

48:31

go away from me and then i'm

48:33

reading stories about me in the press one

48:35

hundred blasio interviewing other people

48:37

for my position even

48:39

as are telling me keep my head off and

48:42

so another lesson i learned is

48:44

that you've gotta like so as

48:47

control sometimes you can't handle

48:49

your own crises all the time and

48:52

it's good to have some humility

48:54

and put some trust and other people to do things

48:57

for you

48:58

that's the thing i really came through your to buy the book a couple

49:00

of places this notion of on for you

49:02

say my overconfidence of my abilities led me to make

49:04

dumb decisions while facing crises my own of my

49:06

go to attitude was i alone can fix it

49:08

which of course is famously from without trump

49:10

they which i know he said with my arse eyebrows

49:13

you wrote that number one i think fair

49:15

to say that in general that

49:17

phrase a lawyer represents absorb yeah for

49:20

for client that's right i'm saying rights is

49:22

particularly true in your business that right and

49:24

in one of the things that i most have

49:26

found over thirty years of writing about politics

49:28

and recovering politics and talk about issues is

49:30

that some of them still don't understand something

49:33

very basic

49:34

which is that

49:35

they are different than

49:37

their public image the public image they thing

49:39

that exists apart from them

49:41

the closer republic images to reality

49:43

the authentic reality view the better because that

49:45

you're kind of your wind up are stacked up consistently

49:47

but people are going to believe things about you that you're

49:49

not going to see yourself and people going to bleeping

49:52

about you that are good that you'll see yourself in baths

49:54

but that your public image is almost like a separate

49:56

entity i target exists and of course

49:58

you can't possibly

49:59

the

50:00

the person giving advice to your own public

50:02

image because used by it hard to separate them anyway

50:05

spell like read the story you're

50:07

kind of way

50:08

who's this person they're writing about you know you have

50:10

that moment out of body moment like i dunno

50:13

that person that person's being written about there's no relationship

50:15

to me and politicians often make the mistake

50:17

we have to see them doesn't matter where you think about yourself

50:19

if there's a thing out there that exists that you have to

50:22

be in control of all the time and for that you need

50:24

help

50:25

you generally need help in life for usually eliseo

50:27

and it brings to mind is

50:29

something p once said to me

50:31

i think it's a and of twenty nineteen

50:33

early twenty twenty remember when he serves

50:35

to the top of the polls in iowa

50:38

the hampshire either i

50:40

remember as a reporter which

50:43

one is networks calling

50:45

us and being like shuttle ,

50:47

i have never seen as much

50:50

oppo being shopped around

50:52

about a candidate as is being shopped around about

50:54

p right now and

50:57

what will you really interesting

50:59

and really help fall behind the scenes

51:02

was that i could talk to

51:05

i'll be have to test them

51:07

and have on

51:08

conversations with them one on wind about

51:11

what it was like and how

51:13

it feels in that moment and

51:15

of the coping mechanisms you should have

51:18

attitudes you should take so that you

51:20

don't drive yourself crazy and number one

51:23

is don't read your clips don't

51:25

read the clips especially if you're running for president

51:27

for anything like that

51:29

good good luck with the good luck or that i

51:32

did he do that advice does he have their base your day

51:36

pete was he was actually pretty

51:38

good about he was never whatever

51:40

held a pencil fucker with clips you wouldn't go through

51:42

and be like oh god has a right that's a

51:44

big picture guy you know you spend time

51:46

the me i'm day or injured scenario

51:49

where do i really don't know if people are languages

51:51

that at some points less

51:54

i realized the person that

51:56

they're attacking on twitter

51:58

the president they're saying is a c

51:59

the age and that i'm sam

52:02

neill them shell the

52:04

person you hit me let

52:07

them attack that person and

52:10

let me be me one

52:12

thing was able to make that separation

52:16

it was just like waters off and dot

52:18

them i will not take this posture but

52:20

i would say others might say that are to allow for

52:22

lessons that can be learned from this one will be don't

52:24

need eliot spitzer the other would be don't work for

52:26

build was years now and i usually that amassing

52:28

i believe that but i think there would have in a lot

52:30

of people from the outside i'm being serious and awaits

52:33

fly know you know this because your family was like to see i

52:35

want when you write something like the last thing you

52:37

ever want to have tell your father your brother as the words i'm in love

52:39

it i spitzer you know and it's interesting

52:41

as you really works i've caught up with two guys

52:43

in a heated whatever the

52:45

else

52:46

immediately i do as you can work for the suits you guys the

52:48

same time it's dark in close proximity also

52:50

does monday

52:51

why do you have tried and i write about the semi

52:53

but it has been revealed publicly

52:56

before by it's de blasio had tried

52:58

to get elliot to support him in his

53:00

mayoral race had tried to get his

53:02

money

53:02

was

53:04

because he liked him because he liked him because he

53:06

thought he could use that

53:07

the matter that psych pop in politics

53:09

well that's just me you i don't think

53:11

he had some cicero a heat for elliott

53:13

okay we're

53:15

elliott educated bill

53:17

this is right in the book you're very irregular

53:19

that

53:20

because of what build it to me

53:22

oh our wasn't a pre existing

53:24

thing there was really just because over the way that the i was

53:26

essentially

53:27

there were an intellectual lightweight

53:29

and on that site zip personal stuff

53:31

is harder to talk about

53:33

because when you found your for

53:35

someone you fall in love with someone and of

53:38

i am and better martial artist and for

53:40

it and hopefully snow and even knows

53:42

about my love life choices

53:44

going forward by no matter who

53:46

it was devastating i

53:49

don't think it was right for build a blasio

53:51

it's not like my skills evaporated overnights

53:53

it's not like not like

53:56

committed some fireball

53:58

offense and you know

54:00

what's interesting is site eighteen

54:02

months after that de blasio

54:04

fired another extremely

54:07

talented woman who was working for him

54:09

ritual nord langer who's

54:11

lol

54:12

dar i owe you a universal

54:15

we were and on geography as together and

54:17

he says he fired her for the same reason as

54:19

of who she was dating and

54:22

it's gross and i'm

54:24

not sure you to do that is that post me

54:26

to era but there's also something

54:29

that bill de blasio didn't realize he

54:31

was doing when doing when mates

54:33

which is he even

54:36

before he took office signaled

54:39

, the new york tabloids and

54:41

to the near post especially the

54:43

dated steamroll an stat is say

54:45

said oh give her the heave ho de blasio

54:48

then he would do it and

54:51

and if he had stood up and showed some strength

54:53

and that and i think that

54:56

would have given him a lot more credibility

54:58

with them to show that he had a backbone

55:00

but he didn't do that the new york

55:02

media market is very neat but

55:04

people need to know that they can smell blood

55:06

the water and if they smell weakness

55:09

bay was his com and for being

55:11

on your head day after day after

55:13

dec

55:13

we are going to take one more break and will be back

55:16

with more of with smith

55:27

we are back for the final section of

55:30

course none of his attic two part

55:32

episode with was smith gear on how our

55:34

i want to be a thousand was unclear i'm

55:37

not suggesting that there's any possible job no

55:39

matter what better , they

55:41

thought about your leisure with eliot spitzer and alive a lot of

55:43

our thoughts by valve see her

55:45

justification of irish irish was gutted

55:48

dot was no to defend bill de blasio i just

55:50

want to sail to be what you write about the book people are

55:52

you had yeah specify my point only

55:54

think about where you were that moment you

55:57

know you bend

55:58

our college less than

55:59

the decades

56:01

barely thirty right you've been in the middle

56:03

of now and it babbage's giant tabloid sex

56:05

scandal sort of and it wasn't

56:07

really wasn't sex scandal but it kind of that's how people thought

56:09

about it's yeah when divorced they get your apartment

56:11

i know that's horrible trying to make it more

56:13

lower than it is a waste all that happens

56:16

and three sixteen is coming and

56:18

you go off and decide to work

56:20

it can be a senior person not present you can him for the

56:22

first time you got or for martineau

56:25

malik british your brief low moreno valley thing because

56:27

really what to get some of the more important things by do

56:29

think this this race taught you something so

56:32

warner malley announcing his bid for the presidency

56:34

right here as as may thirtieth twenty fifteen

56:37

had a new twenty sixteen race former mayor of

56:39

baltimore former governor of maryland

56:42

morneau malliori com

56:44

the story of our country's best days

56:46

is not found in a history books

56:49

because this generation of americans

56:51

is about to right it

57:01

and that is why two days to

57:04

you and to all who can hear my voice

57:06

i'd the class said i am a candidate

57:09

for president

57:13

are you more

57:15

normality

57:16

reliable was a good generational talent

57:18

people like mario malaga be present when they right i

57:20

mean that's logical said for one time index the point

57:22

where frame is aware of this

57:25

actually what i'm a full set of as to when

57:27

i'm with someone who was so is essentially

57:29

that world was so thought of as being such

57:31

a fast rising star and also such kept husband

57:34

political player and he ends up being sent

57:36

of the basis for and out now well known

57:38

character in that case tarnished have made the wire

57:41

tommy party was platelets hancock

57:43

editor will compare and contrast who's better

57:45

i'm our topic okay

57:47

well i am god forgive me a politician

57:51

i am somewhat for public office

57:53

because office believe that there was there was

57:55

way of governing and i believe that in be and

57:57

we will be judged not by the efforts we make them be

58:00

do you both for us are those who contribute to our campaigns

58:02

are those who provide for our tax base i

58:05

believe that we will be judged by what we provide to

58:07

the weakest and most vulnerable that

58:09

is the tests that is my tests

58:12

aiden guillen playing a comic arcadia that people

58:14

remember him as little finger and nancy

58:16

say l comes to it comes full circle

58:18

it all comes full circle i became complex humor

58:20

thrown some house so i played us to give me a

58:22

tom cartel you that aggressive nasal speech rate

58:24

their rights how is what did you do with care to could

58:26

speak like that in that are non scripted television show

58:28

format like a chance as good garcetti

58:31

that for guys do on the white house right

58:33

party fan years he has his first

58:36

some flaws five thousand to him he'd

58:38

sit up the city council said

58:40

of the mayoralty he added

58:43

there's a lot of sensitivity around the wire

58:45

i know alley world's yeah i the other as i

58:47

know there's license to the incomes or kelly has and weaknesses

58:49

and flaws also but nonetheless the thing

58:51

about him though moments when is shown as a politician

58:54

like that that speech

58:56

powerful right to speak city ghettos city ghettos no speech

58:58

in the show he says about it ecstasy council

59:01

meeting where he gets rolling you see

59:03

what people see in him rights and the recent

59:05

raise it is this

59:06

have you play mario malley up and i mean you'll a speak

59:08

about the chef that did you like was did you see martin

59:10

is like this guy is the natural

59:13

in the way the people what to bill clinton said that you know

59:15

for the very beginning right back out to go all the way i did

59:17

you see in him the kind of thing that eventually side pete

59:20

at the at the moment as you look at him think man

59:22

this guy's really something and he could be could

59:24

be the nominee could be prison

59:26

so he is a governor who achieved

59:28

a lot you know go down

59:30

there checks i said progressive priorities

59:33

you get them all numb and get them

59:35

before lot of people did them marriage

59:37

equality gun control right

59:39

after sandy hook raise

59:42

the minimum wage driver's license

59:44

for undocumented immigrants decriminalize marijuana

59:47

you get points he had a great resume

59:50

him mayor of baltimore

59:52

governor maryland he was

59:54

also someone i was very closely

59:57

like out it very personally friendly us

1:00:00

then when i've been going through

1:00:02

tough times with de blasio et cetera

1:00:04

he would always call me and sort

1:00:06

of buckley arts and be

1:00:09

really supportive and of me in a way

1:00:11

that he a lot politicians aren't

1:00:14

and me the

1:00:17

martin martin that i saw it behind

1:00:19

the scenes that i saw off the

1:00:21

record was one

1:00:24

of the most amazing i like smart

1:00:26

funny witty caring warm

1:00:29

fatherly you know has to sort of

1:00:31

irish his charm

1:00:34

to him but it's really warm

1:00:36

and sentimental but

1:00:39

he

1:00:41

had served the whole thing right that

1:00:43

made him good on paper you're beautiful

1:00:46

family but he was on this guy that

1:00:48

wants the tv camera turn on

1:00:51

is , like there it's like a wall

1:00:54

and up and the wall was

1:00:56

very hard to break down and

1:00:58

he and i would talk about oh how did

1:01:00

that wally then get belts and

1:01:04

the turnout ia when he had been mayor

1:01:06

the baltimore he been a very

1:01:09

it's thrash out there

1:01:11

politicians who would have no problem

1:01:13

drop and as bombs at press

1:01:15

conferences no problem

1:01:17

going out there and like to threatening

1:01:20

fist fights with bad people were doing

1:01:22

bad things playing and

1:01:24

yom cut off sleeved shirts

1:01:27

are you concerts any

1:01:30

had a group or consultants around

1:01:32

and like older white man

1:01:34

who said martin your life if

1:01:36

you're going be governor you can't do

1:01:38

this you need to be more serious

1:01:40

you know you need to be more gubernatorial

1:01:43

race and i feel like

1:01:45

they feed the

1:01:48

in custody out of hand yeah

1:01:50

i'm and they made it so that

1:01:52

he became the

1:01:55

cookie cutter her and like imitation

1:01:58

of a kennedy and nasa him

1:02:01

and i would always times let

1:02:03

people see who you are

1:02:05

behind the scenes where you can't

1:02:07

see program years of that

1:02:10

and was it something like that frustrates

1:02:12

me sometimes about the political consulting

1:02:14

industry is that these

1:02:17

guys try to make every one

1:02:19

into this you

1:02:21

what they think of as a cookie cutter gubernatorial

1:02:24

candidate or presidential candidate and

1:02:26

in the meantime you lose all

1:02:28

the character all the authenticity all

1:02:30

the interesting things about them because

1:02:32

sometimes even the flaws in these

1:02:34

people make them beautiful

1:02:36

and make them fascinating and make them interesting

1:02:39

and that sort of my diagnosis

1:02:41

of what happened with more know malaise

1:02:43

but malaise love him he has been

1:02:45

has great friend to me and

1:02:48

yo i had it so

1:02:51

much loyalty toward ham i would go

1:02:53

back and do it again in a heartbeat for

1:02:55

knowing how it ended because

1:02:57

he's a he's a great guy he someone we

1:02:59

should have in public office but i

1:03:02

i think he did get some really bad advice along

1:03:05

the line

1:03:06

like i can't tell ya was like

1:03:08

i had known that well but i

1:03:10

mean i'd see him a brown for years and and knew him

1:03:12

by reputation the covered i'm a little bit here and there

1:03:14

yet this reputation for being much more

1:03:17

real ah man i seen him in

1:03:19

some cases be much more real he turned into

1:03:21

you know a max headroom character and that

1:03:23

in the in the campaign and it was

1:03:25

just the worst possible contrast in the world

1:03:28

would bernie sanders home i don't want everything

1:03:30

about the ideology bernie sanders the hovers

1:03:32

interesting was like i'm not i'm a yellow

1:03:34

you for an hour and a half from the stage

1:03:36

i mean i have dandruff on my shoulders i'm

1:03:38

going to skip the same speech of in oregon is this what i believe

1:03:41

in the swamps and even as you know the kids

1:03:43

younger than us there's other of generations as jersey

1:03:45

kids and wales like wow this guy's

1:03:47

honest authentic in the republican side their same same

1:03:49

thing but trump this guy speaks his mind

1:03:51

is your that's usually he is love more hit

1:03:53

him and you know he

1:03:55

said

1:03:56

boredom our next a breeze there's like democrats

1:03:58

are looking for alternative between do you know

1:04:00

i that old ones like barry sanders and

1:04:03

and martin looks like robotic

1:04:06

tinman not the martineau malley that people

1:04:08

that we once knew of like what happened of them are no

1:04:10

value but i'd seen ten years ago

1:04:12

and we're an email and his recent

1:04:14

i met him a was added

1:04:16

dj of and democratic governors

1:04:19

association they , annual

1:04:21

events at the derby a mobile yeah

1:04:23

for donors and i met

1:04:25

him that night for the first time and

1:04:28

and their yeah i'm drinking a beer

1:04:30

and a talk with ham and

1:04:33

my boyfriend at the time jeff smith who is a state

1:04:35

senator a jewish guy representing majority

1:04:38

bucks district men he

1:04:40

and i'll malaise just talk for

1:04:42

an hour telling stories

1:04:44

about being mayor being said set our

1:04:46

st lois baltimore and amassing

1:04:49

so salty so fun but so

1:04:51

insightful and smart said i

1:04:53

think you and i are on the same page that the saying

1:04:55

that was great about ham

1:04:58

had banned unfortunately

1:05:00

been half an hour before even came

1:05:02

along and it's one

1:05:04

thing i've learned is that i don't have

1:05:06

you ever played an instrument for just as instrument for

1:05:09

early on it had a really bad form

1:05:12

with my bow and i just

1:05:14

simply great you know i was they had

1:05:16

a my high school orchestra alas

1:05:18

but i could never fix

1:05:20

how i held my bow it same with

1:05:22

chopsticks what

1:05:24

i learned that how to use i'm i'm still babbage

1:05:26

have sex and it's i think the same

1:05:29

a politician said as certain points

1:05:31

these things get paid ten and

1:05:33

you can't succeed right

1:05:36

is it doesn't diminish the fact that he was

1:05:38

in it's very accomplished governor and

1:05:40

you weren't

1:05:41

that leaves like like the i know i know in

1:05:44

an engine i'm like i'm not

1:05:46

trying to spend by

1:05:47

one of the most decent man like

1:05:49

i've i've worked for behind the scenes and and

1:05:51

i do love him and i don't

1:05:54

want to discount i'm i'm i feel like a little guilty

1:05:56

of but yeah

1:05:57

yeah i'm i'm not i'm no one's together

1:06:00

trashy my family your users i like it was

1:06:02

actually just that magic in out and a different

1:06:04

world

1:06:05

the world a lot of people politics imagine could be the

1:06:07

world like the i was those guy who was like

1:06:09

summer and and be i could have easily seen him

1:06:11

with a so there was space and that race but mart

1:06:13

know malley did not see that space

1:06:15

and his campaign came to a pretty

1:06:18

inglorious if not ignominious

1:06:20

and in iowa for

1:06:22

after i will read out to the caucasus were

1:06:24

heated up for particularly well ah he's

1:06:26

out of the race edu lose your outta

1:06:28

town you at some point here in

1:06:31

the early part of twenty sixteen

1:06:33

it's you'd didn't just get out and you like

1:06:35

way outta town it's like fled the country went

1:06:37

to uganda us and said bucket i'm going to go off

1:06:39

and track and gorillas when was that it

1:06:41

was

1:06:41

right after an iowa caucuses

1:06:43

yeah so you know you go up to you gotta

1:06:45

and do your gorilla tracking something i've always wanted

1:06:47

to do and eight this delightful story the bakary

1:06:49

study where you're basically doing the

1:06:51

ones that you're not supposed to do when you're tracking girl

1:06:53

as which is make a lotta loud noises ah

1:06:56

i enjoyed that enjoyed that it will eventually after

1:06:59

it's a little the time way your back on

1:07:01

the political grid by the time we get a thought

1:07:03

may sixteen and donald trump and hillary clinton are going

1:07:05

at it and you know what does things i would say

1:07:07

if i recall or right ever having you on tv

1:07:10

in that period was that you

1:07:13

were not one of these democrats

1:07:15

who took the view that like beating

1:07:17

donald trump was gonna be a slam dunk

1:07:20

and that it would be easy and that hillary clinton

1:07:22

was going to glide to relax and you had some

1:07:24

degree of appreciation for

1:07:27

what trump

1:07:28

had done in kind of demolishing the

1:07:30

republican field into a sixteen and

1:07:33

and you were wary

1:07:35

i wouldn't say respectful but you are warily

1:07:38

kind of aware or sisters speed

1:07:40

of the fact that there was a certain power

1:07:42

around trump and that maybe he

1:07:45

could be more of a problem

1:07:47

in the general election than other people thought

1:07:49

and i think probably so that came from watching bernie

1:07:51

that you've had a solid where the fire was

1:07:53

in the in the two parties that year that

1:07:55

this was like a year for not for

1:07:58

a pillar he is enough for mario malaise and aperture

1:07:59

bush's but for the bernie sanders

1:08:02

and donald trump's the world who are you know

1:08:04

more incendiary and work connecting at this more

1:08:06

populous level with people i know

1:08:08

seem to be like you had appreciation for what

1:08:10

was going on with trump is that that fair

1:08:12

you know what it's like ads i'm

1:08:15

the oh i have bengals fan obviously

1:08:18

i don't know how many times i can drop in an interview

1:08:20

but ah

1:08:21

we're going to so far

1:08:23

i yeah i grabbed the an address

1:08:25

family and you know

1:08:28

if every my family always had

1:08:30

season tickets the at first there were like

1:08:32

in the nosebleed seats with us they're like second

1:08:35

level you know at some point and the

1:08:37

jets fans fucking hate

1:08:40

the patriots they fucking hate

1:08:42

tom brady but god damn

1:08:45

tom brady is a great great

1:08:47

quarterback and at

1:08:49

some point you have to divorce your personal

1:08:51

feelings about the person

1:08:54

about what you to give their character

1:08:57

just like gate you know and

1:09:00

realize okay this person

1:09:02

has got some sort of scale whether

1:09:05

or not i i approve of them

1:09:07

or think they're you morally

1:09:09

superior snare the data

1:09:11

base or to get it and donald them

1:09:15

the candidate was the guy

1:09:18

who understood the media environment

1:09:20

under is absurd how to get clicks

1:09:23

understood how to get views and

1:09:25

understood that a presidential

1:09:28

election and a lot of elections are are are

1:09:30

about more than ten

1:09:32

point policy plan for a oh it's about

1:09:35

are you tapping into the zoc guys are

1:09:37

you speaking to what people

1:09:39

are feeling and he's

1:09:42

like he's is captured that moment very

1:09:44

well in a way sanders tried

1:09:46

to in the primary trump captain some

1:09:49

to some really ugly stuff that

1:09:52

he really answer brought to the for

1:09:54

of american politics yeah but

1:09:56

he got it you know and he he also that the press

1:09:58

man the pregnant really

1:10:01

because our suppress i can hover it we

1:10:03

were all there for oj and like

1:10:06

we remember all their helicopters

1:10:08

above oj all those specs and

1:10:10

you know he'd i don't even know what cable news

1:10:12

you as but they are all fallen

1:10:14

the white bronco rights because

1:10:17

nothing's history happening right now it's

1:10:19

a white bronco but we know oj center but

1:10:21

something could happen

1:10:22

i was has a caped i say this this is

1:10:24

the ask us trust yes one of the most

1:10:26

extraordinary whether moments

1:10:29

twenty six theme that for that cycle our

1:10:31

remember most the only erupting

1:10:34

a because the so right on point do you be

1:10:36

iowa state fair into a fifteen and

1:10:38

do you surgery clinton that days and that a

1:10:40

watching her at the fair i think maybe shooting

1:10:42

for the circus or how know i was just there to

1:10:44

poop or stuff i guess

1:10:46

and trump helicopter when

1:10:48

the helicopter came everyone

1:10:50

on the ground the press

1:10:52

clinton campaign everyone how

1:10:54

looked up the sky and well as trump

1:10:57

it was early no one really thought trump had trump had at that

1:10:59

point to there was something about like the spectacle

1:11:01

of it here's this guy arriving at the i was a ferret

1:11:04

his personal helicopter that everybody

1:11:06

who was there including all the season

1:11:08

hard bit reporters everyone suddenly

1:11:10

looking up in the sky and time muttering

1:11:12

under their bras which trump here

1:11:14

comes trump and i was like man this

1:11:17

is the thing happening here was very cinematic

1:11:19

moment that kind of captured a certain top quality

1:11:21

of like twitter would have throughout the entire

1:11:23

campaign

1:11:24

that's right yeah this feral brilliance

1:11:27

to ham and it's

1:11:29

is something you can't deny and that

1:11:32

is some of the feral brilliance woods

1:11:34

tapping into the lowest

1:11:36

common denominator of voters but

1:11:39

also the lowest common denominator in the

1:11:41

media and it so

1:11:43

yeah i watched him learn from it

1:11:46

totally all right we have reached the

1:11:48

end of part one of our special two part episode with

1:11:50

v one and only liz smith the author of the

1:11:52

just published a memoir any given tuesday

1:11:55

april if a love story here are held

1:11:57

high water per to have this

1:11:59

to protect [unk]

1:11:59

there will be available tomorrow dropping

1:12:02

in the morning and you get here was

1:12:04

talking in great detail about her see

1:12:07

crucial critical essential

1:12:09

indispensable role in turning

1:12:11

people who to judge from a name that no

1:12:13

one had ever heard of into

1:12:15

a name that everyone at her but still couldn't

1:12:18

really pronounce and helping him became

1:12:20

a surprisingly successful candidate for

1:12:22

president and twenty twenty an

1:12:24

, turned himself into a national

1:12:26

figure that campaigns big props

1:12:29

and ups do do

1:12:32

also hear all about loses excruciating

1:12:34

experience being part of former new york

1:12:36

gov andrew cuomo's kitchen cabinets

1:12:39

at the heat the height rule out

1:12:41

the height more like been the deer of

1:12:43

the me to scandals that brought

1:12:45

down gov down sources

1:12:48

, rasmus forced to

1:12:50

resign last year with

1:12:52

year million years ago trust me you

1:12:54

want to hear the inside story of what went down

1:12:56

there and you'll hear it tomorrow

1:12:59

there and i water park to with

1:13:01

will smith