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2:03

Hey,

2:03

everyone. John Heilemann here, and welcome to Helen High

2:06

Water. My podcast about politics and culture

2:08

on the edge of Armageddon. It's

2:10

determined if dubious, committed,

2:13

if cuckoo for cocoa puffs, often wrong,

2:15

but rarely in doubt exercise, in

2:17

elevated gas baggery. Than

2:20

neither rain nor snow nor heat nor gloom

2:22

of night nor the toxic

2:24

rantings of thenut house right. A

2:26

president attempting to invalidate a legitimate

2:28

election and stage an auto coup

2:30

complete with an armed dissection of the United

2:32

States capital nor more broadly

2:34

and arguably even more disturbingly.

2:37

The capture of a decent sized chunk of our political,

2:39

social, and civic spheres by a cadre

2:41

of incoherent, insidious, conspiracy

2:44

adiled, conspiracy craving, authoritarian

2:47

worshiping lunatics, hustlers, grocers, nihilists,

2:49

and nint compoops. None of it. None

2:51

of it has kept us from our duly

2:53

sworn duty and obligations. Giving

2:56

you, our listeners, a fresh episode

2:58

of this podcast week after week after

3:01

week after week. Maybe not

3:03

without fail because, you

3:05

know, hashtag epic fail

3:07

is one of our many Mottos around here, but

3:09

certainly without a pause. We've

3:12

been doing that for more than two

3:14

years. Haven't had a break. All

3:16

of which is to say that I

3:18

am plumb shagged

3:21

out and desperately in need of

3:23

some R and R. And with the midterm

3:25

election now comfortably in the

3:27

rearview mirror in our democracy, Amazingly,

3:30

if I will admit a little unexpectedly, still

3:33

intact, it seems like a suitable

3:35

time for the High Water home

3:37

office to give itself a fucking

3:40

break. So for the next few weeks,

3:42

that is exactly what we are gonna 2. And

3:45

we'll see you back here on the other side of the holidays.

3:47

Tanned, rested, refreshed, revitalized, and

3:49

raring to go. Ready to

3:51

get back to cranking out more

3:54

tasty content. In the meantime,

3:57

Don't despair. We're not leaving

3:59

you entirely in the lurch for

4:01

these weeks. To the contrary, every

4:03

Tuesday morning pre usual, you

4:05

will find a hopefully unfamiliar

4:08

episode of podcast doing

4:10

the backstroke in your feed drop

4:12

there by the able AI fact totems

4:14

who'll be mining the store while we're away.

4:17

And while these episodes come over

4:19

the next few weeks, may not be fresh, or

4:22

strictly speaking new, they will

4:24

be piping hot, a carefully

4:26

curated series of hell in high water golden

4:28

oldies, which those of

4:30

you who've been around from the start may remember,

4:33

I

4:33

hope fondly. And those of you who came

4:35

along sometime later may never have encountered

4:38

it all. Given our

4:40

focus on politics these past few months and our

4:42

desire not to take a dump on your

4:44

mood of holiday inspired good cheer, we've

4:46

decided these encore presentations will avoid

4:48

that topic like the plague. And focus is set

4:50

on culture, entertainment, technology, and such with a

4:52

run of some of our most favorite guests in those

4:54

realms over the past two 2, including

4:56

this beauty right here, which

4:59

whether or not you've heard it before, you will

5:01

not want to miss. And so with

5:03

that, we leave it to it with a

5:05

hearty and heartfelt Nice day.

5:21

And we are back for the second installment of

5:24

this very special two part episode of Helen

5:26

High Water with my guest and friend Mike Bender

5:28

of The Wall Street Journal, the author of the

5:30

Fantastic New Book. Frankly, we did win

5:32

this election. The inside story of how

5:34

Trump lost. But before we resume,

5:36

Mike, let's take a listen

5:39

to a little bit from the man of the hour.

5:41

Donald Trump at one of his recent

5:43

post presidential rallies. I don't know if they

5:45

still make you go to these rallies. Is that something that's

5:47

still part of your job description when you're not on book leave?

5:49

Anyway, let this is one of

5:51

those recent post presidential

5:52

rallies. This one at the Lorraine County Fairgrounds

5:55

in Ohio. Together, We

5:58

will send Joe Biden and the

6:00

fake news media. There's a lot of

6:02

people back

6:03

there. Look at

6:05

that. Look

6:08

at that. Do

6:12

you miss me? They miss me. Famous.

6:21

I know. They

6:22

look at their bad ratings and they're

6:25

saying we miss this guy. So

6:27

there he is. Donald Trump

6:29

in Ohio late June

6:31

talking about the press, doing a thing, you know, we've been

6:33

watching Mike. We've watched him do this for years. Right? We're

6:35

gonna do rallies of, like, one of the standard Trump things.

6:37

Pointing to the point of the

6:38

riser, talking about the fake news media. I've

6:41

often been on this rise because you've been on a lot

6:43

of risers

6:43

or in a lot of places where the press file

6:45

is, where the president's pointing and mocking,

6:48

deriving, sometimes stirring up

6:50

near or more than near violent animus among

6:52

his crowds towards the press and rather

6:54

sometimes very uncomfortable circumstances. And

6:56

he's still doing it, talking about fake news media, but there's a

6:58

thing in that thing. I wanna talk about how you became

7:00

a member of the fake news media. Mhmm. Well,

7:02

let's talk about that and then we'll talk about whether Trump's

7:05

right. The press actually does miss him. Okay. The bender

7:07

story begins in

7:07

Ohio. Right? Mhmm. Tell me about how

7:10

you got bit by the journalism bug. I

7:12

didn't really even consider journalism

7:14

until I was college. I mean, I grew up in Cleveland.

7:16

The Cleveland plane dealer was dropped at my driveway

7:18

every morning. It was a race between my

7:20

dad and I to get the paper to, you know,

7:22

to grab the sports page first. Which

7:25

I blame him for, you know, the I

7:27

just can't look away from the browns. Those orange

7:29

helmets are like the Cleveland Indians or calves. It's

7:31

really a

7:31

curse. But They'll win they'll

7:32

win eventually. Don't ruin my this

7:35

year. This year. I went

7:37

to Ohio State and was taking my

7:39

round of electives. And for

7:41

a degree in US history, and it was journalism one

7:43

on one class. And it dawned

7:45

on me there that this kind of

7:47

had all the things I was looking for. I really

7:49

enjoyed writing, This offered me

7:51

something to write about and write about different

7:54

things every day. And having

7:56

grown up in Cleveland and gone to school in Columbus,

7:58

I was sort of like looking for a different

8:00

kind of experience after college,

8:02

trying to maybe live somewhere else for a little

8:04

bit and see what that was like. And

8:06

at the time, every town in America had

8:08

a newspaper this year, but I graduated in two 2. And

8:11

some 2, so that

8:14

sparked a newspaper career. I went to the I just

8:16

ended up working for the college paper,

8:18

some internships in Columbus,

8:20

and I worked for newspapers in

8:22

Ohio, Colorado, and

8:24

Florida for the

8:27

the first dozen

8:27

years, first twelve, thirteen years in my career.

8:29

Just to go back, right, your love of newspapers

8:32

really started --

8:32

Mhmm. -- you know, with a plane dealer

8:35

landing every day in your driveway and

8:37

you, you know, racing out of the house to try to beat

8:39

your dad to get a hold of it. And get hold of the

8:41

sports pages really. Right? You're you're

8:44

I'm sitting here like having a an acid

8:46

flashback to my youth -- Mhmm. -- where

8:48

my dad was the same as your dad. He got

8:50

the LA Times like exclusively for

8:52

the sports section, it could throw out any part

8:54

of the paper that didn't mention either the dodges of

8:56

the

8:56

Lakers. If it didn't have one of those two teams reporting,

8:58

it was, like, fuck that. I don't need it. And it

9:00

sounds like your parents were kinda like

9:02

that not I

9:03

mean, my dad paid attention to news, but not

9:05

like I'm pouring the newspaper for

9:07

foreign news it sounds like your parents were a little like

9:09

that too. So I'm

9:11

curious, like, what they thought when you

9:13

started talking about becoming a

9:15

journalist? Did they think it was,

9:17

like, a legit profession and they were, like, oh,

9:19

we're so proud, or they

9:21

kinda, like, oh, shit. Like, we wanted a

9:23

doctor or a lawyer. You know, my parents,

9:25

like, They were very encouraging at whatever

9:27

I wanted to do, but I can't say they

9:29

totally understood, like, what the journalism

9:32

racket was all about. So

9:34

I feel I'm wondering whether yours

9:34

did. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's a really fair

9:37

question. And it was different than anything

9:39

in my family. My grandfather was

9:41

a scientist and became

9:43

an executive my aunts and

9:45

uncles are accountants and

9:47

businessmen and business women, dads and

9:49

accountant. And here I came by

9:51

offering journalism. My parents were actually they

9:53

were always supportive. I think two things. One is, like,

9:55

I'd never really talked seriously about a career with

9:57

my mom since I wanted to be become

9:59

a baseball player for the Cleveland Indians. So

10:01

my parents were just both thrilled that I had

10:03

shown like, was showing some interest in

10:05

a specific career path. And my

10:07

dad my dad didn't want to become an account.

10:09

He wanted to have a big family and he saw

10:11

accounting as a way to support a

10:13

big family and 2 his wife stay Heilemann

10:15

raise us all. So he was

10:17

he was thrilled that I was excited

10:19

about something and was pursuing, wanted

10:22

to pursue a career that that wanted to 2

10:24

its own sake as as opposed to as

10:26

it means to an

10:26

end. Right. Dave and you say you're a history man,

10:29

but were you, like, a politics junkie back then?

10:31

No.

10:31

I I really wasn't. I and and

10:33

and still wouldn't consider myself

10:35

a junky. Sounds weird. But my

10:37

interest really was history. The classes I

10:39

liked growing up the social studies and

10:41

history classes. I I liked the stories

10:43

and I liked writing and

10:45

what attracted me to politics was

10:47

both of those. Was the history of the

10:49

moment And when I write about

10:51

policy, like, I I don't really feel strongly about

10:54

particular policies. I mean, it really is true.

10:56

Like, and it's not like a journalism joke.

10:58

Like, I've never really identified myself

11:00

as a Republican or a Democrat,

11:02

and that sort of bleeds into these different

11:04

policy issues. I don't have super strong

11:06

feelings on, you

11:06

know, what should be done with the infrastructure bill

11:09

or what

11:09

corporate tax rate should be. What

11:12

fascinates me is the stories behind that,

11:14

the relationships and the interactions and

11:16

the negotiations that are

11:18

all at play. To get these deals done

11:20

and to get these policies written. Right? I mean, it's

11:22

a relationship business. It's a people business.

11:24

And these things don't get done because of

11:26

necessarily who has the best idea

11:28

It's who's put the work in to build the relationships

11:31

and knows how to leverage that stuff,

11:33

which is endlessly fascinating to me.

11:35

And so

11:35

this is where, you know, you end up writing a whole bunch

11:37

of different places in Florida covering a bunch of stuff

11:39

in Florida in that period around two

11:41

thousand ten. Basically, the tail end of Jeb Bush --

11:43

Mhmm. -- and then Charlie Chris you're at the

11:45

Tampa times, right, when when Rick's got rent

11:47

for

11:47

governor. That's right.

11:48

I'm kind of like compressing all of your Florida experience.

11:50

You went Tallahassee for a while. Because

11:52

that's all the stuff you did right before Bloomberg discovered

11:54

the talents of Mike Bender down there covering Florida

11:56

politics, which is a serious thing. I mean, there

11:58

are a lot of places in the country where

12:00

The leap from from local or state politics

12:02

or city politics to national politics is

12:04

is a leap. Right? And I think, you know, as

12:07

a big institution like Bloomberg, where you and I

12:09

worked together for a period of time, is looking

12:11

around. You look at, like, what are the places where you're gonna go

12:13

find someone who has the chops to make the

12:15

jump from state to national politics? You

12:17

look at places like Florida. That big state

12:19

with a bunch of people like Jeb Bush, people like

12:21

Rick Scott, people who had national aspirations right now.

12:23

Ron DeSantis is arguably beyond

12:25

Donald Trump. Yeah. The Republican who people

12:27

think has the best shot at twenty twenty

12:29

four. Mhmm. You can make what you will of that. But

12:31

it's an interesting place to learn the ropes in

12:33

politics. I'm curious about how you found covering

12:35

Florida politics and what you learned there

12:37

that came in handy as she made the move to national

12:38

politics. One thing

12:39

I learned in this career

12:41

path is working for metros and even

12:43

community newspapers, writing about people who are

12:45

actually gonna read the paper

12:47

that morning. Right? Getting the paper delivered that

12:49

morning. And you have to see in the

12:52

grocery store the next day or out

12:54

in the neighborhood and the accountability that brings

12:56

with, you know, you're not just firing something

12:58

off into the 2 on a blog for

13:00

someone in, you know, in the other side of the country

13:02

to read and interpret whatever they want. I

13:04

mean, it was really important

13:06

for my career and understanding the

13:08

business and understanding how

13:10

to report and how to fact check and how to get things

13:12

right and how to talk to a lot of people to

13:15

do that. You know? And then, as that

13:17

apply to Florida, I mean, Florida is, as

13:19

you were saying, I mean, it's first paper in

13:21

Florida was the Palm Beach Post. The Palm Beach Post is

13:23

competing with Florida Sun Sentinel. South Florida Sun Sentinel

13:25

is competing with the Miami Herald. And the

13:27

Palm Beach Post is a fraction of the size both of those, but

13:29

we're punching above our weight and trying to compete with

13:31

everyone all in the same

13:33

space in, like, some of the most

13:35

fertile ground for news in the

13:37

country. You have all these different

13:39

demographics. All these age ranges -- Right. -- like, they

13:41

have all thrown together on, like, a very

13:43

on a continuous stretch of of beach,

13:45

you know, for ninety miles there. And you

13:47

haven't even mentioned that the same peak times, which was, you

13:49

know, for

13:49

peak times, like, back in in my

13:52

somewhat earlier day,

13:54

among this level newspaper was, like,

13:56

one of the, I mean, the incredible talent came out

13:58

of Saint Peter Peterburg. Like, an amazing -- Yeah.

14:00

-- amazing pulsing

14:01

throbbing, thickened newspaper

14:04

environment in Florida for a very, very long

14:06

time. Yeah. But and for different reasons. Right? I mean, you

14:08

you you the the people and the reports you you

14:10

sort of think about coming out of South Florida, and those

14:12

papers are our news grinders. Right?

14:14

I mean, it is a it is a

14:16

doggy dog world and and and that stretch

14:18

of the state. When I was there and

14:20

before me for news. In

14:22

crazy news. Right? Like, the guy

14:24

who bit off the side of the other other

14:26

man face a, you know, a few years ago, you know,

14:28

that kind of stuff. And Saint Pete's is sort of the

14:30

sleepier side of

14:31

Florida. But but Saint Pete develops

14:34

to compete is the best writer's

14:36

paper in the country.

14:37

Right. Yes. That doesn't pull surprises

14:39

mostly for for their writing

14:41

and, you know, deeply reported pieces and

14:43

and that all that all comes together in

14:45

politics. You know, and you have a a

14:47

state producing all of these

14:49

politicians who are national figures.

14:51

Right? I mean, it's it's the biggest battleground state in the

14:53

country for for decades at this point.

14:55

Yeah. If you rise to the top there, you're immediately

14:57

a national figure to draw back to

14:59

journalism a little bit. I mean, again,

15:01

it's just so important to

15:04

2 people fairly. Right? I'm not,

15:06

you know, I'm not

15:08

saying 2 be easy on them, but if they

15:10

know you're getting a fair shake.

15:14

And Marco Rubio was a house majority

15:16

leader when I started in Tallahas see.

15:18

You know, I sat in his office and

15:20

his house speaker at the Florida House and

15:22

watched the NFL draft one year. Right?

15:24

I mean, we all knew he was ambitious. We didn't you

15:26

know, but, like, my my point being, like, those

15:28

people, like, all became he

15:30

and the people around him are are now in

15:32

movers and shakers in Washington on a

15:34

national level. And, you know, these are it's

15:37

again, politics is a relationship business. So

15:39

is journalism. The only currency

15:41

we have is or trustworthiness.

15:44

And, you know, if you blow that,

15:46

chasing a a city council

15:48

story or a state

15:50

legislative story, or, you know, an attorney

15:52

general race that that stuff will not just

15:54

will will come back to haunt you.

15:56

And, you know, I think I've been been lucky in

15:58

that respect to have created some good

16:00

relationship is a good

16:01

foundation, not just in Colorado, but also in

16:03

Florida that has helped me in Washington

16:05

too. So here here you come out of

16:07

Florida. Yeah. Bloomberg brings you

16:09

on down in Florida initially and

16:11

then up to 2. And

16:13

this is kind of around, you know,

16:15

in twenty sixteen, twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen is when

16:17

our paths crossed -- Mhmm.

16:18

-- yours

16:18

in mine. And, you know, I I think

16:21

about that time because it also is when

16:23

all of our when your path all of these things

16:25

intersect around Donald Trump in the twenty sixteen

16:26

campaign. I can't remember. Were

16:28

you were you were you the original Trump assignment

16:30

that we had for you at Bloomberg Project? Or were

16:32

you the first person we assigned to Trump? No.

16:34

Because No. Surly. Yeah. Because I was covering

16:36

the front runner. John, I was covering the front runner. Right. You're

16:38

following guys. Jeb and Rubio. Right? Like,

16:40

I those are the guys I knew. Right. And

16:42

I I remember having a conversation

16:44

with you and the editors about, like,

16:46

Trump's polling and that it

16:48

should be, right, that everyone's

16:50

kinda making front of him, but he was, you know, you

16:53

his pulling suggested otherwise.

16:55

Yep. And, like, okay.

16:57

Bender, you, you know, you check-in oh,

16:59

no. No. No. Not me. You know, it's a good

17:01

idea to cover him, but I'm covering the

17:03

front runner here, guys. I can't, you know, be

17:05

possibly bothered with this guy. Yes. So so,

17:07

no, I didn't I didn't end up covering I covered Jeb

17:09

till the end. I really wanted to write the end

17:11

of that story. And -- Right. -- even

17:14

the the Jeb Obit that I

17:16

did with John remains

17:18

now If not, the favorite one

17:20

of the favorite stories I've ever written in,

17:22

you know, twenty years in this business. I'm gonna

17:24

have to go back and read that now. You know, John Hellman's for people

17:26

who don't know a famous long form magazine editor

17:29

who have edited me at New York magazine for

17:31

twenty years, and I who I

17:33

brought with me to Bloomberg and ended up editing

17:35

a bunch of other talented young

17:36

people, including Binder

17:39

here, who learned who were like, I've heard

17:41

this guy's kind of a genius and

17:43

it turns out he really was a genius

17:44

and who just passed away about a year

17:46

ago, tragically from various

17:49

cancers, and we all miss him every day.

17:51

Yeah. Seriously, there was there was a lot of moments in this book,

17:53

John. I would tell you that I could hear you

17:55

I can I can hear home. It's telling me in the

17:57

background, you know. That's that's a score. Right? That's a score.

17:59

Yeah. I was talking to somebody the other day about all the

18:01

number of columns I wrote in New York Magazine for John

18:03

where we'd be getting close to the

18:06

deadline the deadline was always for my

18:08

deadlines were always, like, artificially

18:10

late because I could never make a deadline in

18:12

my life. And at some point, I always knew

18:14

I was really getting really pushing the thing to the point where if I didn't

18:16

get it in soon, there was gonna be blank pages in

18:18

the magazine when I would get an email from homes at homes

18:20

that would just say, How's the

18:22

my friend? How's the poetry, my friend, was

18:25

basically like the four alarm fire that

18:27

that I was about to cause a real problem

18:29

in New York magazine. How's the poetry,

18:32

my friend? So, yeah, I mean, miss him, miss

18:34

him to death. And and I think, you know, if

18:36

you're if you're like everybody else with John, you probably

18:38

learned a lot just from having done some amount of

18:40

work with him in that period

18:42

at Bloomberg. And I now remember, of course, you are covering

18:44

Jeb because as people now, it's hard to

18:46

remember. It's hard to believe that

18:49

Jeb Bush with the front runner in twenty

18:49

And that was, like, everyone was, like, it's gonna be Jeb

18:52

versus Hillary. Jeb versus Hillary. And so a

18:54

plumb job was, hey, Mike Bender from earlier

18:56

that

18:56

he knows Jeb really well. You're gonna be covered

18:58

with the front runner, maybe the next president of the United States.

19:00

And it took about, you know, I

19:02

think by about August. And

19:04

that first debate, you looked up and went madgev

19:06

is just not this is not gonna be his

19:08

game. That's

19:09

true. With Trump. So I I guess I

19:11

that is the question I wanted to ask you. Right? So you

19:13

left

19:13

Bloomberg going to work for for in

19:16

the course of twenty sixteen. And Trump becomes your life

19:18

-- Mhmm. -- as you had

19:21

observed that campaign starting

19:24

and seeing the way in which he was

19:26

decimating

19:26

everybody. Yeah. The giant field

19:29

seventeen candidates, Trump just mowed down

19:31

everybody. Right? From the very

19:33

beginning, and it became clear that he was gonna be the nominee.

19:35

I just I'm curious what you kind of how

19:37

you thought about why having watched him, the

19:39

way in which he did what he did and the way in

19:41

which he produced Jeb to dust

19:43

so quickly. How did you greet the prospect of

19:45

okay. Yeah. Now I'm, like, the Donald Trump reporter --

19:48

Yeah. -- and the fact that you want to keep your life for

19:50

five years. I mean, I know.

19:52

There there there's two moments where I have to,

19:54

like, confront that question. One is when he becomes the

19:56

nominee. And you're right. It was basically

19:58

August where Trump it was it

20:00

was cleared that Trump had was

20:02

resonating. And I remember

20:04

telling the jet people that, like, Trump

20:06

is gonna be the nominee. Like, there's no doubt

20:08

in my mind. Like, there's no way he's he's

20:10

disappearing. And I say that

20:12

and like a, you know, like, sure

20:14

vendor, like, in hindsight. Yeah. Of

20:16

course. But to say that when he became the

20:17

nominee, I immediately talked myself out of

20:19

That's how I kind of dealt with it was that, like, Hillary

20:22

Clinton, lover or

20:24

hater, was the most

20:26

qualified presidential candidate on

20:28

paper of my

20:29

lifetime. Right. And

20:29

she had a machine, and she had

20:32

just beaten a guy in a Democratic

20:34

primary who was drawing arena

20:37

sized crowds. Right? Like, these

20:39

crowds don't mean anything. Right? Because, like, Hillary just showed,

20:41

like, that it's not actually

20:44

one to one

20:44

thing. So Right. I was convinced I was

20:47

just writing, you know, the death of the Republican

20:49

party at that point, which turns out

20:50

to be wrong. And But,

20:53

you know, there

20:55

is there is a, you know, election night twenty

20:57

sixteen, even in in the Wall Street Journal's

20:59

Washington Bureau as a night, I will

21:02

never never forget and and how much copy had to be

21:04

written be written on the fly that night. But

21:06

then there's the question of, like, covering him

21:08

as president. Right? And we were I

21:10

was one of a five member

21:12

team covering Trump as the Republican nominee,

21:14

and exactly one of

21:16

us went into the White House. All of

21:18

my other colleagues were like,

21:21

no fucking way. Right? Like, you

21:23

know, next time, thanks, but no thanks. I've

21:25

had my fill. You know, it it it is

21:27

more just like like you were talking about before, like the two

21:29

or three new cycles that Trump dominates

21:31

in a single day, the journal for some

21:33

reason only wanted to pass for one of those new

21:35

cycles every day. And, you know, and

21:38

if you had in a journal, like 2 were

21:40

saying before, it's mostly, you know,

21:42

veteran reporters who have years in the in the

21:44

business have families. Right?

21:46

And Trump had shown that he was willing

21:48

to create news at any time of the day

21:50

over anything create policies on

21:51

Twitter, and it's just exhausting.

21:53

But, like, on the other

21:55

hand, it was the opportunity to

21:57

cover the

21:58

White House for the Wall Street Journal and,

22:01

like, the two didn't even compare 2 me. I was

22:03

just like, I was all in. I was I was ready to

22:05

go. And in in a weird way, I

22:07

much rather cover campaigns than

22:09

than the White be out, you know,

22:11

at stops in Iowa, New Hampshire

22:13

talking to people in South Carolina making

22:15

reservations for dinner and

22:17

you know, in in Columbia. But in

22:19

a weird way, Trump was a lot more fun

22:21

at rewarding to cover in the

22:23

White House because none of that stuff happened

22:25

in twenty sixteen. Right? It was the plane would

22:27

would land in in

22:30

Nashville. The campaign would stay on the on the

22:32

plane. Trump would come out screaming us

22:34

all for two hours, get back on the plane, fly back to

22:36

New York. Like, there were no improvements

22:37

to, like, catch them at the best

22:40

western in the White House, they were all

22:42

contained. Right. Right?

22:42

And everyone was there. They couldn't get away from us. So, like, it

22:45

was it was much it it was more of a

22:47

campaign feel in the White House than it

22:49

that campaign itself. So Giuliani just wrote this piece, which is basically

22:52

that's been getting a lot of attention in our world, which

22:54

is kind of a the press missing

22:56

Trump in some ways. Her thing

22:58

is kind of like how a reporter should cover

23:00

Trump dealing with the

23:02

transition to 2, the reduction

23:04

in adrenaline, the

23:06

different tempo, it be

23:08

more different. Right? Black and white. How is everybody kind

23:10

of coping with them? There's a lot in the piece. I'm just curious

23:12

about your view about that. Like, what it's

23:15

been like it was an enormous challenge to to cover the

23:17

past administration. But also, I

23:19

mean, time when the the press never felt more

23:21

important. Right? I mean, everybody was

23:23

on that of, like, this is a moment when the

23:25

stakes are very high every day. When it

23:27

felt like, you know, the basic bedrock

23:29

of it, it did. I not only felt that way, but

23:31

it was. Where the basic kind of

23:33

underpinnings of of American democracy seemed to be.

23:35

Trump was at trashing institutions

23:37

and norms every day. And so the

23:39

stakes seemed really high and the role of

23:41

the press was it's

23:43

always there, but it was much more front center,

23:45

much more obvious. You 2 a little bit about whether

23:47

you felt like that in the process of covering it

23:49

and in writing the book. And how you

23:51

feel about it now that you're on the other side and the book

23:53

is written and and it's kind of the summation in a lot

23:55

of ways of your whole of this whole period

23:58

of your of your professional

23:59

career. Everything you said about Trump's

24:01

driving interest in politics and and

24:03

journalism again is is all definitely true. And and I've

24:05

heard you actually speak about this 2. It's all

24:07

part of a trajectory. I mean, Trump amplified it, no question,

24:10

but the American public has been getting more

24:12

and more interested in in

24:14

American politics. For decades now, really. Right? And

24:16

there's data that that shows this.

24:18

But not only did Trump supercharged

24:20

that, but, like, during the pandemic,

24:22

he was the only thing on TV. Right? You

24:24

know, you liked sports. Like, you 2 in to

24:26

his news conferences to see the game. Right? If you

24:29

liked kind of like drama shows in in the evening,

24:31

like, nothing new has been made really, so you

24:33

tuned into his COVID newspapers to see what the drama

24:35

was. I mean, it was Trump

24:37

has a gift for attracting

24:40

eyeballs and driving news. And,

24:42

you know, that is not only is that different

24:44

from Biden, but but

24:46

this was Biden's campaign promise.

24:48

Right? Like, he promised to basically be the

24:51

boring guy. Like and so that he didn't have to turn on

24:53

your TV every day to see what the president was gonna

24:55

say. So on one sense, I would say that

24:57

it's not surprising at all. You know,

24:59

I I don't feel nostalgia for that

25:01

chain. I mean, and I'm just talking as a

25:03

journalist covering. It was exhausting. I'm a

25:05

big fan of Julia, and I I talked to her for

25:07

that piece. And -- Yeah. --

25:09

she she doesn't exactly say this, but there's a

25:11

sense that that it was easier during

25:13

Trump. Right? And that, like, there was all this news and

25:15

and now it's so much harder. I

25:17

would say that they're covering these two presidents

25:20

present equal challenges. The the

25:22

challenge of these two guys are are are equal.

25:24

One is that Trump was such a flood of

25:26

news. There was so much happening and

25:28

he was such an unreliable narrator of it

25:31

all that it did make it

25:33

easier for my profession to

25:35

cut corners. Like, I mean, there's it's just a

25:37

fact. I mean, West Wing didn't know how to

25:39

push back, it didn't know how to manage these

25:41

stories. And and there was very limited

25:43

opportunity for them to anyway because of how rapidly the

25:45

next story was coming. So if you wanted to

25:47

tell an accurate story, Like

25:50

you had to talk to way more people and put in

25:53

way more work for these stories than you would

25:55

have for any other administration where

25:57

there's generally an agreed upon

25:59

version of what happened in that meeting. Right?

26:02

Which is the challenge now is getting that

26:04

agreed upon version. You have to talk to a

26:06

lot of people in order to find someone

26:08

who's willing tell you what happened. I

26:10

mean, the nice thing is is that there's not as

26:12

many competing versions of

26:14

that, but it I I think the challenges are

26:16

equal and they're it's just as

26:18

hard.

26:18

I don't know about equal because

26:20

I do think there are special

26:23

challenges involved when you're dealing

26:25

as a reporter with an environment like

26:27

this one where, you know, led by

26:29

the president, the default mode

26:32

is to deceive. If for no other reason then there's

26:34

a lot more, in fact, to

26:36

be deceitful about. And I wanna come

26:38

back to this point in a particular

26:41

challenges that it poses for anyone like you,

26:43

Mike, who cares a lot about the

26:45

truth, and is trying to capture that truth between

26:47

hard covers in a book for history

26:49

with sources like

26:51

those in Trump world, it sounds kinda

26:53

tricky to me. So we're gonna take a

26:55

quick break, listen to some

26:58

advertisements. And then we will talk about

27:00

all of that on the other side here

27:02

on hell high water with my guest, Mike

27:05

Bender. And

27:09

we

27:15

are back with second

27:17

installment of a special two part episode

27:19

of Helen High Water with my pal Mike Bender.

27:21

Before the break, Mike, we were talking about your

27:23

experiences reporting on Trump have a very particular

27:25

question that goes directly to the book

27:27

writing process, which is how

27:29

to deal with the problems

27:31

posed by sources who

27:33

are what we call in

27:35

the news business, unreliable

27:37

narrators. Unreliable narrators are a great term of

27:39

art for a lot of things, covers a lot of sins.

27:41

But the unreliable narrator problem is

27:43

an even bigger problem in dealing with Donald

27:45

Trump's team who were famously a

27:47

bunch of that fucking lying liars

27:50

who lied all the time, speaking

27:52

of which, let's say, listen to Steven Miller,

27:54

the ultimate unreliable narrator,

27:56

as borne out by recent appearance here with

27:58

Sean

27:58

Hannity. No president in history

28:01

has been dealt a better hand on

28:03

day one than president Biden.

28:05

About what President Trump left him and what has

28:08

become. We have cities out of control with

28:10

crime. We have open borders. We have the

28:12

Middle East in tatters. We have

28:14

Afghanistan falling to pieces. We have

28:16

an economy with

28:18

massive inflation runaway spending,

28:20

and we we have jobs that should be

28:22

filled, not to be filled, but unwise

28:25

fiscal stimulus policy is keeping

28:27

workers out of the

28:27

workforce. This is

28:28

a disaster.

28:29

Where is it leaving

28:30

listening to that, Mike,

28:32

I can't help but ask.

28:37

How did you deal with? The unreliable

28:39

narrator problem and that it wasn't just Trump as

28:41

the most unreliable narrator at all time. It's that a lot

28:43

of people around Trump are incredibly unreliable

28:45

narrator. And I mean this in a very specific way

28:47

when it comes writing a book, you know, having done a couple of them

28:49

-- Mhmm. -- that relate to 2

28:53

history. Things you did not witness -- Mhmm. -- you know,

28:55

where you were not in the room, and you

28:57

were relying on the memories, sometimes

29:00

contemporaneous notes. Mhmm. Sometimes you

29:02

get lucky and someone's tape recorded something -- Mhmm. -- or

29:04

audio recorded something. But, you

29:05

know, notes emails,

29:09

documentation, memos --

29:10

Text messages. -- messages,

29:12

voicemails, text messages, all of that.

29:15

Sometimes contemporaneous, sometimes after the

29:17

fact. Sometimes you're just relying on their memory

29:19

because you're doing an interview after the fact. But it all

29:21

you're putting it all together, right,

29:23

to to write a scene in

29:25

your book -- Mhmm. -- or in a book like game

29:27

changer. Mhmm. And if

29:29

you're trying to exhibit the highest fidelity

29:32

to the closest approximation of

29:34

the truth. Sometimes you get

29:36

very ideally, you get very lucky

29:39

where you you talk to everybody who is in the room,

29:41

you get all the evidence put and and although there's

29:43

some small disagreements about matters that

29:45

are marginal, on the important big

29:47

things that happened, fundamental agreement and you you're

29:49

you're never gonna get perfect. You weren't there. Right.

29:51

Memories are faulty, but you're like, okay,

29:53

I've cross tabulated

29:53

this. I've looked at this from every possible

29:56

Heilemann I think I'd know what happened in that room

29:58

in in every important

30:00

dimension. Then there's the other the other extreme, which

30:03

is like fundamental disagreements between people in

30:05

the room. Mhmm. Like, where you can't square

30:07

the circle and you don't really

30:09

trust anybody you're talking to. Yeah. And unless

30:11

you have a contemporaneous recording of that

30:13

event, you're having to somehow render

30:16

professional judgment about who to

30:18

believe and and how do you try to get to

30:20

a point where you're comfortable writing this thing as if

30:22

it happened without saying

30:24

so and so said the following and the other person said there

30:26

was, you know I mean, obviously, one of the ways out of this

30:28

to 2 say, you know, the memories differ or that people

30:30

dispute what happened in the room. But if you're trying

30:32

to get to the point where you can write, like, what

30:34

you think has really happened,

30:37

It's a real challenge when you have either unreliable

30:39

ryan operators or fundamental disagreements. This

30:41

is a hard problem even when you're not dealing with with

30:43

a bunch of pathological liars.

30:45

This is an incredibly difficult thing

30:47

to deal with. Did you find it as difficult

30:49

as I imagined it to be? And

30:52

then, if you did, how did you cope with that trying

30:54

to do a book for history where you wanted

30:56

to get somewhere close in the same zip

30:58

code at least with the

30:59

truth. If not, and without ever being able to know

31:01

exactly whether you got everything

31:03

exactly right in every detail. It was extremely

31:05

hard. It was extremely hard. And I

31:07

went down a lot of rabbit holes and

31:09

and struggled in real time with how to handle

31:11

these

31:11

questions. Right. I kind of sort

31:14

of

31:14

divided it in two ways. There were some things that

31:17

were just either happened

31:19

or didn't happen. Right?

31:21

And other things that people's impressions could be

31:23

different. Right? And their interpretations of a

31:25

conversation or a

31:25

moment. So I kinda tried to first sort

31:27

of separate those depending on how much time

31:29

I would devote to a a

31:32

detail. A colleague of mine Ted Mann, he wrote

31:34

a book at The Wall Street Journal. He was a

31:36

helpful person to talk to 2 me for for this

31:38

process. And some point, he just told me that, you

31:40

know, these competing stories, you know, that's the

31:42

story at some point. Right? Instead of trying

31:44

to figure out exactly what was said or

31:46

exactly what happened or know who

31:48

made this decision to

31:48

what, the fact that there are all

31:51

these senior people around

31:53

Trump disputing

31:54

that, that's its own story. Right? That's its

31:57

own fact. And is maybe

31:59

more illustrative of what

32:01

was going on and what

32:02

happened. Than exactly who said what. Yeah. So

32:04

there's a couple instances in the book. Right? I try

32:06

to just say, like, these these are the different

32:08

versions of what happened. Trump's

32:11

COVID test is one of those. And

32:14

I just made sure that I talked

32:17

to as many people as I

32:19

could gave people as many opportunities to

32:21

discuss scenes in the book that they're

32:23

involved in

32:24

or, you know, decisions that they were

32:27

part

32:27

of. That's a good answer. And you're basically

32:29

saying to me, like, it's really fucking hard. The

32:31

one thing I learned in working on game changer double down

32:33

was just how flawed memories

32:34

are. You can probably

32:34

be only trying to tell you the truth. A

32:37

hundred percent. I mean, it's amazing. The

32:39

problem of memory is a huge problem for people

32:41

who are writing history and non fiction is

32:43

that even people in who have great

32:45

memories in good faith they changed their

32:47

story. You you interview them in February, and

32:49

then you interview them in May. And they tell you something

32:51

different between the two things, and they're not actually trying to lie

32:53

to

32:53

you. They're just like -- Yeah. -- they've just

32:55

in the course of three months, they they and you're like, what are

32:57

you gonna do with that? Like, that that was a technique I

32:59

used too. Like, I sort of like a police investigative

33:02

because it's just sort of, like, ask the in

33:04

in some of these instances, I have to ask the

33:06

same people, the same questions, like, a few different times.

33:09

And if you know, depending on

33:11

whether their stories change over time

33:13

or don't. Like, that was informative

33:14

too. Right.

33:15

It's very, very hard. But, man, I mean, having

33:17

to do that, having to go back ask the same questions over and over

33:19

and over again. Right. It was a long

33:22

process putting this thing

33:22

together. It does,

33:23

as I say, leads to my last question about this

33:26

matter, which is this. Heilemann,

33:28

one of the challenges it seems to 2, and this

33:30

gets into a 2 very large potential discussion

33:33

about, you know, the way that the press

33:35

broadly handled Trump. But

33:37

I'll ask it in a very specific way.

33:39

I mean, I think, like, you know, there everybody

33:41

talks about media bias in a variety of different ways.

33:43

I think there are a lot of reporters

33:45

and I I put myself in this category who looked at Trump and

33:47

were like that he was just categorically

33:50

different from anybody else we never covered. And it

33:52

wasn't about like disagreeing

33:54

with his policies or, like, it just has to

33:56

do with, like, reaching some kind of assessment you thought

33:58

this person's unfit for office. Did this

34:00

issue come up for you. Did you grapple with that question in

34:02

the course of your coverage over the course of four

34:04

years? Yeah. I mean, it informed

34:07

the way I did the

34:09

job. It it helped, I think, for me, not being again, I

34:11

mentioned a little bit earlier that I'd never really

34:13

identified as a Republican or Democrat. Like, it

34:15

wasn't really a conversation growing up.

34:17

You know, I would fight you to the death if

34:19

you're a Michigan Wolverine, but, you know, it really

34:21

doesn't remember just a so that that sort of

34:23

helped. But the way Trump behaved in

34:26

the office, it did for me was I knew there was gonna be more to the

34:28

story. This is sort of like the gift of Trump.

34:30

There's always a kernel of truth in what Trump

34:32

is saying.

34:34

Right? Like, I always try to remind myself

34:36

of that of what he was actually trying to say

34:38

here. Like, give it a second. Think about

34:42

this again. And I think it happened to me and other

34:44

2 colleagues, like, you you sort of

34:46

hear what you wanna hear with Trump, but

34:49

to do this job and and, you know, report on

34:51

a daily basis, you really have to kind of go back

34:53

and look at what he said again and then

34:55

make your judgment how that story should be played. And -- Right. --

34:57

to your point of, you know, 2 whether he was fit for

35:00

office or not. I mean, that's

35:02

ultimately a choice for voters. And what I

35:04

could do

35:06

was tell them what was happening behind the scenes. And

35:08

knowing what I know about Trump and learned

35:10

about him along the way,

35:13

2 understand where there was gonna be more to the story and where like,

35:15

what he was trying to keep from, not

35:17

just us, but American people

35:19

were at large. And felt like my

35:21

job was to to tell stories and then let people decide for

35:24

themselves. My admiration for

35:27

you and for everybody who did this job on a daily basis

35:29

over the course of the four years could not be higher. It really

35:31

is what, like, one of the great challenges I think, you

35:34

know. Again, I think the stakes are incredibly

35:36

high for and I also think it was

35:38

really hard to do this for all these reasons

35:40

because reporters had to confront a

35:42

bunch of questions about the

35:43

presidency, about their job, about the

35:46

proper relationship between their job and and

35:47

the institution they're covering. In a way that, you know, no one

35:50

covering the Obama administration or the

35:52

Bush administration

35:54

or the Clinton administration or the Bush administration or the Reagan administration

35:56

had to do because of the unique nature

35:58

of Donald Trump.

35:59

Yeah. You know, if

35:59

you take that, those set of

36:02

existential kind of questions, really

36:04

deep questions about the

36:06

endeavor, you know, what its point is

36:08

and how to do it. You layer those

36:10

on top of the fact that

36:12

you're running it's seventy miles an hour constantly with your hair on fire and the the

36:14

thing was moving so fast and was

36:16

this information overload and the news cycle was sped

36:18

up the way it

36:18

was. If you take all of that into I'm

36:21

just surprised there were

36:22

not more reporters who ended

36:24

up in mental institutions wrapped in

36:26

straight jackets. So I should say

36:28

that I did literally finished this book

36:31

inside a therapist's office. It was

36:33

a it was a it was down the street.

36:35

She was the the therapist was subletting the space because of

36:37

the pandemic. She couldn't actually see

36:39

patients in her office, so she was subletting

36:41

it, and I took it over.

36:44

So, you know, somewhat unironically

36:46

finished this book literally inside a therapist's office. But will say

36:48

that, you know, all of those challenges you you

36:50

mentioned, and on top of

36:52

that is

36:54

a extremely competitive

36:56

industry. Yes. Right? And you have,

36:58

like, a lot of elbows not just, you

37:00

know, aimed at each other or competitors in

37:02

the press, but a lot of times, like, on the same team

37:04

in the same media outlets. Sure. Sure. And

37:07

-- Sure. -- how I kind of coped it all

37:09

of it was was two things. One is 2 was really

37:11

lucky at the journal to be a

37:13

part of a team of veteran

37:16

reporters who really did, like, look out for

37:18

each other. I mean, we looked out for each other schedules,

37:20

make sure we get we're getting home to

37:22

our families And, like, you gotta you're gonna fight with your editors about what the

37:24

story is. You're gonna go to the White House and fight with

37:26

them about every little thing. And there was a sort of

37:28

collective agreement from the

37:30

beginning that, the one place we didn't

37:32

need to fight was with each other and -- Right. -- I really was very, very lucky

37:34

with that. And also

37:38

to have really the the

37:40

unconditional love for my my my my wife and my

37:42

family and and really my friends

37:44

who did not blame me

37:46

for disappearing you

37:46

know, for years and not tending to those relationships like I I wanted to and

37:48

should have. When you hear the 2 of Ashley

37:51

Parker vendors, for anybody who doesn't know,

37:53

Ashley Parker from the Washington Post,

37:56

Benders' wife who who is,

37:58

you know, -- The best. -- just absolutely the best.

38:00

Yep. One of the great professionals in our business

38:03

and also just spectacularly wonderful human being.

38:05

I mean, it's not just that she's too good

38:07

for you. I mean,

38:10

truly, you've used up your

38:12

lifetime of good luck and good

38:14

fortune to have ended up in their relationship you're

38:15

in. A hundred percent true. And I'm sure it has been

38:17

incredibly helpful to have a wife who understands really all of

38:19

the dimensions of this. Yeah.

38:20

It's like

38:21

part of the way you survived. She's my

38:23

best friend, she's my best editor, she's my best publicist in

38:25

this process. And therapists. And therapists. Yeah. A

38:27

hundred percent. Yeah. This

38:31

is a great spot after finishing our joint

38:33

in Comioms to your wife, Ashley, for

38:35

a stick and brake. And when we come back,

38:37

we will dive into the horror show that

38:40

was a January sixth. And in particular, what was going on behind the scenes

38:42

with Donald Trump and Mike Pence, something that

38:44

our guest Mike Bender, has fresh

38:46

reporting on in his new book. Frankly, we

38:48

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41:08

And we are back on Helen High Water with Mike Bender of Wall

41:11

Street Journal. Brand new soon to

41:13

be number one 2 selling

41:16

author. Frankly, we did win this election to talk about the

41:18

insurrection at the capital on January

41:20

sixth, but let's first listen

41:24

to some recent comments about that fateful day, first by Mike Pence,

41:26

and then by Donald Trump. January

41:28

sixth was a dark day

41:29

in the history of the

41:32

United States

41:32

But thanks to

41:35

the

41:35

swift action of

41:38

capital police, and

41:40

law

41:41

enforcement. The violence was

41:42

quelled. The capital secured.

41:47

And we

41:47

reconvene the congress the very same

41:50

day. So that whole

41:54

event, unfortunate event, just went

41:56

through Congress and a report was issued, and

41:58

my name wasn't even mentioned.

42:00

And I appreciate that.

42:02

I say

42:02

though, however, people are being treated unbelievably

42:06

unfairly.

42:06

When you look at people

42:08

in prison and nothing happens

42:11

to antifa and they

42:13

burned down cities and

42:15

killed people. So that's Mike Pence at the Reagan

42:17

library saying that January six was

42:19

a dark day, that law

42:21

enforcement was heroic. And, you know,

42:24

constitutional order was, thank God,

42:26

eventually restored. And then you have Donald

42:28

Trump butted right up against it

42:30

with him calling it and fortunate

42:32

event, the insurrection,

42:34

the deadly riot at

42:36

the capital where people were killed

42:38

and and others were beaten senseless

42:41

with fire extinguishers and American flags

42:44

and their

42:46

own shields in

42:48

the case of police, Donald Trump, an

42:51

unfortunate event. Yeah. So a pretty stark

42:53

difference there, Mike. And I

42:55

said something earlier about

42:58

shocking, but not surprising.

43:00

And in some ways, the capital interaction is the

43:02

ultimate example of

43:04

shocking, but not surprising. I mean, I was up there that day

43:06

and it was shocking for sure

43:08

-- Mhmm. -- and horrifying and

43:10

and depressing

43:12

and upsetting and

43:14

traumatic. But in some ways, it almost

43:16

seemed inevitable, not surprising.

43:18

Like, this was how Trump's term

43:21

kind of had to end when you consider the

43:23

build up to it. So Mike -- Mhmm.

43:25

-- you know, in the book, you'd break

43:27

down the the different experiences in Trump's world and in

43:29

Pence's world and where they stand relative to the

43:31

whole thing today. Mhmm. Yeah. A lot of people are

43:33

still trying to, you know, get their head around

43:35

what happened and

43:38

Yeah. Just like what happened and why it happened who is responsible and

43:40

what it means. And also, another thing

43:42

that is hard for people to

43:45

wrap their heads around is

43:47

the fact that it still looks to a lot of people

43:49

like Donald Trump basically was perfectly

43:52

happy, fine

43:54

with seeing his

43:56

slavishly loyal vice

43:57

president, hung, strung

43:59

up by

44:00

the mob. Mhmm. Because

44:02

there was Trump stoking the mob

44:05

Yeah. Criticizing Pence on Twitter

44:07

even as Pence and his family

44:09

were hiding in a secure

44:12

location afraid for their

44:13

lives. that if you would, please. Yeah. So

44:15

III think I I would start to talk about

44:17

January second. I think what this book adds is some of

44:20

the context

44:22

on January fifth. He's basically been Trump has been

44:24

fighting with Pence over this idea of

44:26

of overturning the election. I've I've object

44:28

into the certification of the results

44:30

on January sixth. And, you know, has another

44:32

art, you know, not really an argument,

44:34

but another back and forth where it's

44:38

Trump tells me that Pence never told him no.

44:40

That Pence never told him he wasn't gonna do

44:42

it. Yeah. I think the truth is that

44:44

Pence didn't make it explicitly

44:48

clear. But regardless, he didn't tell Trump yet,

44:50

and Trump ends this meeting -- Right.

44:52

-- the evening of January fifth,

44:55

he's got a stack of legislation on his desk. He's

44:57

got a sign from congress and papers.

44:59

And he hears the rally

45:01

goers outside the Oval Office across

45:03

the south lawn already lining up and and and

45:05

partying basically near the ellipse where they really is gonna happen

45:08

the next morning. And he

45:10

calls his

45:12

mid level staffers who are still at the White House at that point, into the Oval Office, opens

45:14

the door. This has been January in Washington.

45:17

It's, you know, basically freezing

45:19

in Washington. And instructs

45:22

them to sit and listen to all of the energy outside, all of the

45:25

party, all of the enthusiasm for him out there.

45:27

And -- Right. -- you know,

45:30

and his bobbing along to the 2 rock playing outside

45:32

and and and asks the the

45:34

folks in the room, you know, do

45:36

you think there's gonna be

45:38

violence tomorrow? And

45:40

it's a one of the deputy press directors tells them no. Right. A

45:42

lot of their concern a lot of the concern around Trump

45:44

at the time was how the Trump rally

45:47

goers were going to interact with

45:49

the Trump protesters and whether there was gonna

45:51

be a confrontation there. So Trump has

45:53

basically told no, you know, unless the protesters

45:55

and the rally goers really,

45:58

you know, mix. You know, there's

46:00

there's some interaction between the two of them. Everything

46:02

will be fine. By Trump protests, assuming

46:06

anti Trump processors like --

46:07

That's

46:07

right. -- there might be violence between the protesters versus the Maggot protesters. That's

46:09

right. So Trump is told, no. There's not gonna be

46:11

any violence tomorrow unless those

46:14

two 2. Mix.

46:16

And Trump stops and looks at him and says,

46:18

you know, I don't know. Remember,

46:20

my people are really fired up.

46:24

Which, you know, it it didn't really

46:26

talking to the people who are in the room at the time didn't

46:28

really strike them as anything until

46:31

The next day, right,

46:34

when thinking about that conversation and

46:36

hindsight gave some of those White House staffers

46:38

some chills. Yeah. When

46:40

the sixth happens, we know the broad strokes of

46:42

what happens that day, but but my report on

46:44

it 2 to the stories that Trump was

46:46

excited to see these people, his

46:50

supporters, the links they were willing to go for him.

46:52

That's how he viewed

46:53

it. Inside the capital, Pence

46:56

was inches away

46:58

from the riders laying

47:00

eyes on them. Yeah. Secret service put them

47:02

in a in a little height away. Like,

47:05

when they put him in that room, had it been

47:07

a minute later -- Yeah. -- there would have been writers out

47:09

in the hallway. You know? And I have details from

47:11

a call, it depends calling

47:14

into the Pentagon. You have Mario Bowser, the mayor of Washington,

47:16

calling Mark Meadows, asking him to step

47:18

in and have Trump call him off.

47:20

Kellyanne Conway is calling into the

47:22

Oval Office trying to get

47:24

Trump to call these folks off. Staff

47:26

who was in the office were trying to get his

47:28

attention focused on the right thing

47:30

here. Meanwhile, Pence is in a

47:32

conference call with the nation's

47:34

military and defense leaders in the

47:36

Pentagon, basically saying get

47:39

the down here now. Right? I mean, it it falls to pants

47:41

-- Right. -- to bring down the National Guard who ends up

47:44

needing several hours to clear

47:46

the capital.

47:47

The account in your book Mike is

47:49

incredibly engrossing and it's one of many reasons

47:51

to buy the book. And there's questions

47:53

I think people still have

47:55

And I do wanna just 2 tease out them with you

47:57

a little bit. I mean, I think -- Mhmm. -- immediately,

47:59

I think the day after it was

48:02

been SaaS Republican senator from Nebraska who I think was

48:04

quoted saying that he had heard

48:06

reports coming out of the White House that said

48:08

that Trump

48:10

was watching the insurrection

48:12

on television and was psyched by what he was

48:14

seeing. He was psyched by the fact that his people

48:16

were showing strength, which, you know, he

48:18

told people to come to this rally. He said it would be wild.

48:20

He said, at the rally, you gotta

48:22

show strength. He said over and over again,

48:24

he wanted to stop the steal. So

48:27

you know, perfectly plausible that Trump was in some primal

48:30

way pleased to see his people

48:32

on his behalf going to the capital and trying to

48:34

disrupt the proceedings. Right? He didn't tell

48:36

them directly specifically to do that,

48:38

but, you know, we think about everything he said. The

48:40

totality of his message, you know,

48:42

makes a lot of sense. And as I say, there's some

48:44

reporting that suggests that true. But

48:46

I've been waiting eagerly for more

48:48

reporting on it because it

48:50

does go to the heart of two

48:52

crucial questions. That are, you know,

48:54

underlie not just how he was behaving in the in

48:56

that moment, which I think is of interest, and I

48:58

want more reporting on that.

49:00

But it goes to these deeper

49:02

questions. One, is does Trump truly believe

49:04

really, actually believe that the election was stolen,

49:06

that in formulating the big lie,

49:08

does he know it's a lie?