0:02

What else, where else they want to grow, where

0:04

are they at, in their progression, their pathway.

0:10

I'd like correct, I think I Twitter stalked you.

0:10

Shut up in like a little publishing

0:11

Gremlin.

0:13

Teachers they're doing and they're doing a lot of good stuff.

0:14

But then it's like, how do we share that? If

0:16

we can't talk about it.

0:23

Welcome Hello World a podcast

0:24

for educators, interested in

0:26

Computing and digital making.

0:28

I'm James Robinson, Computing educator

0:30

and professional development Pioneer.

0:34

And I'm Coleman editor of Hello

0:35

World magazine and workshop

0:37

wizard.

0:39

As ever we really value your comments and feedback

0:41

which you can share at helloworld

0:43

.cc/podcastfeedback .

0:47

This week returned from the CSTA teacher's conference

0:49

in Chicago, We're reflecting

0:51

on what we think makes an effective

0:53

Professional development experience for

0:55

computing Educators

0:55

. In particular,

0:57

I'm interested in the different

0:59

forms that PD can

0:59

take and the different things

1:01

that Educators can take away from

1:03

each. Gemma,

1:05

hopefully you've had some chance

1:06

time to recover

1:07

from what was a really intense

1:09

week. Do you have

1:11

any Reflections on the conference

1:12

itself or on the wider question

1:14

of what makes effective PD?

1:16

I think my reflection

1:18

is mainly that it

1:19

was just so amazing being

1:21

back face-to-face as I'm sure you

1:23

felt as well. I

1:25

think, although,

1:27

this year has definitely felt a

1:29

lot more normal COVID wise.

1:31

This was still,

1:33

I'm pretty sure the

1:34

first time that I

1:35

was back face-to-face

1:37

with Educators since about

1:38

February 2020. So

1:39

that was

1:43

really lovely just having some, you

1:44

know, just the

1:45

energy and excitement of that. And I

1:47

think especially

1:49

because working

1:49

on the magazine,

1:51

I spend an

1:53

awful lot of my time at my desk, behind

1:56

computer and like

1:57

shut up in my room

1:58

like a little publishing Gremlin.

2:00

So it's

2:02

just really lovely listening to people

2:04

talking about

2:06

articles that you've, you know,

2:09

that you've commissioned or

2:10

created in that, you know, quiet

2:12

little environment away from people

2:13

or, you know, hearing people

2:15

talking about themes in the magazine that they

2:17

really enjoyed that, you know, we'd selected

2:19

at the start of the year. So I

2:20

think it's really motivating when you

2:22

actually see the difference that you're work's

2:24

making. And I

2:26

think something

2:27

that we heard and

2:28

saw a lot about in

2:30

this conference,

2:31

was how

2:33

Hello World in particular, the Big Book of Computing Pedagogy

2:36

was being used for

2:37

PD. So as

2:40

you obviously know James as part of this exhibition

2:42

we as part of the conference we had

2:44

like an exhibition stand where

2:46

people could drop by and have little chats

2:48

with us and grab some free magazines

2:49

and something

2:52

that yeah, came up a

2:53

lot in those conversations was how

2:55

teachers had used

2:57

the Big Book

2:58

since it come out or how they're planning on using

3:00

it, if it was the first time they'd

3:02

seen it. And some

3:03

people had

3:06

made the Big Book, I guess, a more formal

3:08

part of their PD,

3:09

where they were

3:10

doing sort of like

3:11

reading book clubs

3:12

where they were reading a different section each each

3:15

week, or each month with with

3:17

them, with their groups. But I

3:20

think even on the

3:22

less sort of formal

3:23

end of the spectrum like that. I think

3:24

you've got to remember that even just the act of

3:26

picking up that Magazine having a

3:29

skim through adding some Post-it notes and

3:31

getting a really

3:32

great idea for your

3:33

next class is PD and

3:34

an

3:39

extension of that sharing your Reflections

3:41

and findings with each other.

3:43

So, you know,

3:44

something I think we've said a few

3:46

times is, you know,

3:48

at the conference itself was that PD

3:49

isn't just about attending a course

3:51

and you

3:53

obviously know James that we ran a super Lively writing

3:55

Workshop where you

3:57

can learn to write for Hello World and

3:58

get some tips and techniques, best way

4:00

to share your

4:01

ideas with readers. And writing

4:04

for the magazine, is a really great, great way

4:05

to reflect on your own practice

4:07

and I think

4:08

that that's a,

4:10

what a lot of the workshop attendees

4:12

took away with them that even if they

4:14

don't end up submitting. An article idea to

4:15

us, they've had they've

4:17

had that reflection,

4:18

you know,

4:21

that that chance to reflect on their own practice, and that

4:23

PD can be. Yeah, so

4:25

much more than just just attending

4:27

a course. That's a

4:30

lot that I've just

4:31

said and you have

4:33

got so much more experience in this

4:35

area, James, with delivering

4:36

PD. So, I think

4:38

people would probably be very interested in

4:41

hearing your kind

4:41

of sum up your

4:43

thoughts.

4:45

I mean, I slightly distracted by your

4:47

yourself a ppropriated

4:49

job description of a publishing

4:50

Gremlin and I might might

4:52

use that going

4:54

forward whenever

4:55

I introduce

4:56

you. So no, no.

4:58

And I think you're right. A

4:59

lot of those Reflections that you've had about like conversations

5:01

with Educators I think going

5:03

back to one of the very first things you said

5:05

about being face-to-face and

5:07

connecting with Educators. I think

5:08

for me that underscores something

5:11

that's really important within a

5:12

PD kind of

5:14

session

5:14

is that

5:17

it's about connecting

5:18

with other Educators

5:20

and that being really, really

5:21

important. And some

5:24

of the nicest moments were sort

5:27

of, you know, running sessions

5:29

and just letting teachers and

5:31

Educators, just talk to each other and

5:33

share their

5:33

ideas and as

5:36

subsequently their worst moments were having to

5:38

ask them to stop so that you can interject and share

5:40

something else. Yeah. Yeah,

5:44

absolutely. And and so, I think

5:46

yeah, I

5:48

think that in person nature, that communication, that

5:50

sharing is really

5:52

really important

5:53

and something

5:54

else that you kind of touched on is

5:56

this sort of multiple means of

5:58

Engagement kind of

6:00

thing is that you know some things

6:01

you might learn

6:02

best by going on

6:04

a course, being

6:05

told a bunch of information assimilating

6:08

that information than going away and delivering it in your

6:10

practice, other

6:12

things are things that you're going to talk about. Other

6:14

things are even just delivering a lesson

6:16

in your classroom is almost its own

6:17

form of PD. It's

6:18

you trying a new

6:19

idea and self reflecting on that.

6:24

Reading a Magazine article, writing a magazine

6:25

article, listening to a podcast.

6:27

You know, all of

6:29

these are forms of

6:31

PD in their own

6:33

right, and they're opportunities to

6:35

further our learning, if we

6:36

grab them. And so, I

6:38

think that that reflection is really

6:40

important. And I think it also

6:42

helps us deliver

6:44

flexible PD for a

6:45

whole range of audiences. Right.

6:48

Yeah, it's accessible isn't it if it's,

6:50

if PD is just seen

6:51

as I'm going to

6:53

go along on this, you know, massive

6:54

course that I have to get a budget signed

6:56

off for, and all the rest of it, it

6:58

doesn't seem that attainable but, you

7:01

know, listening to a podcast

7:02

on your way to work, seems a

7:04

lot more achievable, doesn't it?

7:06

Yeah. And of I think giving I

7:08

mean something that Sue's spoke

7:10

about in her talk at the conference

7:12

was about kind of recognising teachers

7:14

as professional

7:15

individuals with

7:17

knowledge of their

7:18

context, their Learners and

7:20

giving them agency, over kind

7:22

of how they

7:23

teach and how they learn and that's

7:25

really important.

7:26

And I

7:28

think so, as a PD provider

7:30

or someone, that's sort of

7:31

run, a lot of PD, I

7:32

think, one of the kind of the

7:35

keywords for me, you know, whenever

7:37

I'm delivering

7:38

some PD, I think

7:40

it's not about me instructing it's

7:42

about me, facilitating

7:43

and sort of making

7:44

space for those conversations providing

7:47

a little bit of input and then letting those

7:49

conversations run away

7:50

and see where they get to and

7:52

then kind of drawing people together. We met so

7:56

many amazing

7:57

Educators while we were at CSTA, that

7:59

we had to interview

8:01

at least a couple to share with you their

8:02

perspectiv e on this question of

8:04

effective PD. First, I

8:06

spoke to Bryan

8:08

Twarek a K -12, Computer Science,

8:10

Education leader, and now Director

8:12

of Education

8:12

for CSTA.

8:16

So, I sat down at the conference with

8:18

Brian, or BT to

8:19

find out a bit more

8:20

about the sort of

8:22

rationale behind the conference

8:23

and their approach

8:24

to providing

8:25

PD for the wonderful

8:27

teachers here at CSTA. So welcome,

8:29

Brian, do you want to introduce yourself to our audience briefly.

8:32

Sure, I'd delighted.

8:32

I am

8:34

currently Director of Education for the Computer Science

8:37

Teacher's Association. I'm a previous Middle

8:39

School teacher, and administrator

8:41

for the K-12

8:43

public school system in San Francisco.

8:46

Great and we're now kind of chilling

8:47

out at the end of the conference.

8:48

It's been such a great conference.

8:50

It's my first time attending

8:51

in person. What's

8:53

the kind of the purpose of the conference? And what

8:55

do you hope teachers that are attending are getting out of

8:57

such a session?

8:59

I think that sets it apart is the

9:01

desire for community

9:02

building.

9:05

In the United States. And I think it also more broadly

9:06

most computer science teachers

9:08

have a department

9:09

of one so they don't have a colleague to

9:11

collaborate with like

9:12

most other subject area teachers

9:14

and so they lack

9:16

that both

9:18

connection and community.

9:19

And so we really

9:21

hope to build that here so that

9:22

when teachers go home to their

9:24

schools, they have someone to ask for

9:26

help, exchange ideas, share

9:28

resources. So we

9:30

both hope to do that there as well

9:31

as bolster those Regional networks.

9:35

Yeah.

9:35

And then to build

9:37

some pedagogical

9:39

knowledge, content knowledge, share

9:41

resources, like translate research

9:43

to practice like those things.

9:44

But I'd say that like, what sets

9:45

it apart is the community building.

9:48

Yeah, I reflects a little bit our

9:49

situation in the UK where teachers

9:52

are often or have in the past been often, very

9:54

isolated. And I

9:56

think it's really important to bring them together and help them connect and share

9:58

good practice. And I think

10:00

being here, I think that certainly, something that's come across

10:02

is, people have felt very relieved

10:04

to be back in person.

10:06

Absolutely.

10:07

And just spend time together and make those connections. That's

10:09

been really important, but there's been so

10:11

much professional development that's

10:12

going on at the conference through

10:15

workshops and conversations . To you,

10:17

what does effective

10:18

PD for teachers

10:19

look like, and what

10:20

forms can it take?

10:23

Effective involves some Community

10:26

Building, chances for teachers to make connections

10:27

to people and for

10:29

not to be only about the content

10:31

and learning.

10:31

I think it should

10:33

have an element

10:34

that is relevant

10:35

for their practice

10:36

next week or this

10:38

week or tomorrow. Something in the immediate future,

10:40

they can take back

10:41

and I

10:43

think it should be grounded to a bigger picture. So a

10:45

line to a framework

10:47

or positioning

10:48

it so that teachers,

10:50

over time kind of understand the

10:52

bigger picture, and are able to

10:53

reflect on what

10:55

else, like, where else they want to grow, where

10:57

are they at, in their progression, their pathway.

10:59

And then,

11:01

I think it is also helpful for teachers

11:02

to leave feeling appreciated. And so,

11:06

when leading PD personally,

11:07

I always like to make sure that that

11:09

there are some things they're taking away and

11:11

they're feeling that they're

11:13

feeling like the All-Stars, they are.

11:16

Yeah, And I think what's

11:17

been nice here as well is that, I think teachers

11:19

are given that sense of agency in

11:20

that there's

11:21

lots of, it's not you know a day of PD

11:22

where it's all very

11:24

prescribed, they can go and choose their sessions.

11:26

They can pick what

11:27

is sort of going to resonate with them

11:29

and that's been really apparent here as well. And

11:31

they're learning from their peers. It's not a top-down.

11:33

This is how you will do things. I

11:35

think one of the things that's been really

11:37

exciting about being here at the conference and this

11:39

is largely in thanks

11:40

to you and the organisational work that's been put

11:42

in by CSTA, is that we've been able

11:44

to bring our twelve pedagogy

11:46

principles here. And

11:47

I think part of

11:48

that was trying to

11:49

help give teachers

11:50

a shared language,

11:51

and I guess that must be really challenging here in

11:53

the states, right? Because as well, not only

11:55

have, we got, it's

11:56

very you know, geographically big but

11:58

every state has

11:59

a different set of standards and principles

12:02

and approaches.

12:02

So yeah.

12:04

Do you have any kind of Reflections on the

12:06

value of that kind of shared language?

12:08

I think vitally important and I

12:10

think there's a lot more shared

12:11

language around the computer

12:13

science content objectives outcomes

12:16

because while

12:17

each state adopts

12:19

its own set of instructional standards,

12:21

the vast majority

12:22

are built on or are

12:23

the CSTA

12:26

standards. And so there's not that much variance. However,

12:29

there's a

12:31

wider variety of like, what are the

12:33

requirements for certification of

12:35

teachers? And there's very

12:37

little commonality around what

12:39

effective pedagogy looks like. And

12:40

so yeah,

12:42

we need common language

12:44

and common framework for that. And it

12:46

really hasn't existed. There's

12:47

very few methods courses because

12:49

there's very few CS teacher preparation

12:51

programs so most

12:52

of our PD

12:55

is inservice. Meaning teachers, existing

12:57

teachers, take some

12:58

sort of training to begin teaching of computer

13:00

science and often get certification

13:02

alongside that or afterwards and it's

13:05

tricky. So like

13:07

there's a real need around this and

13:08

so I feel incredibly grateful for this

13:10

...

13:11

No we feel grateful to come and share

13:13

this with with your teachers. And I

13:14

think the other thing was you mentioned about pre

13:16

sort of in-service teachers, maybe transitioning into

13:19

computer science is often, what that

13:20

means is that the biggest and the

13:22

most pressing demand often is the content

13:24

Knowledge is understanding the

13:26

concepts, they're trying to teach,

13:27

but sometimes that maybe means

13:29

that the, the pedagogy gets left

13:31

behind or becomes secondary.

13:33

Something witnessed

13:34

from my time in San Francisco Public Schools.

13:36

Is that teachers often teach

13:38

multiple subjects

13:39

and I would observe them

13:41

teaching a subject they're more familiar with like

13:43

mathematics and also

13:45

computer science. And I might see

13:47

brilliant collaborative

13:48

group work where

13:50

teachers are working to mitigate

13:51

status and have

13:53

these collaborative activities where

13:55

students it's inquiry-based that sort

13:57

of thing and then go into their computer science

13:59

environment where students are working independently

14:00

or maybe

14:03

asking partners for help which they but the,

14:04

what I see

14:07

an over Reliance I think a lack of confidence

14:09

leads to an over-reliance on the

14:11

prescribed curriculum

14:13

or or what's dictated for them

14:16

in a lesson as

14:17

opposed to

14:19

relying on their teaching craft.

14:21

Yes.

14:21

And so I having

14:23

something that says, this is what effective pedagogy

14:25

is in Computing

14:26

can help.

14:28

And with time for reflection can help with that, transfer

14:30

of things that teachers might

14:32

already be skilled in, but feel less

14:34

comfortable bringing

14:34

into their Computing

14:36

class.

14:37

And it's think, yeah, sometimes this transition into Computing

14:39

can be a little bit not not

14:41

demotivating, but it

14:42

can leave, teachers feeling having

14:45

less agency and having less sort of ownership

14:47

of what's going on and and I think

14:49

it's maybe trying to kind of move the

14:51

dial back to recognising that teachers, are

14:53

trained professionals with expertise

14:54

and experience

14:56

and they know their students

14:57

and that's that's their job, right?

14:59

And and and empowering them to

15:01

take those decisions to use what's

15:02

right for their Learners.

15:04

Absolutely.

15:04

And my question

15:05

is so we've had

15:06

what was it? 1600 something like

15:10

that p eople attend the conference

15:10

which has been absolutely fantastic.

15:13

It's been buzzing.

15:13

How do we

15:15

then take

15:15

PD out to

15:18

the masses to the people that couldn't attend in

15:19

person, the people that don't have the

15:21

time to get out here? How do we

15:23

move the dial on that?

15:26

I think always has to be a menu of

15:27

options because there's a number of constraints and

15:30

teachers are busy and also deserve a

15:32

vacation. So I think

15:35

a number

15:37

of online options are important. So in

15:39

late October we'll be collaborating

15:41

with Raspberry Pi foundation,

15:43

on an online Summit, Focused

15:45

around the Big Book of Computing Pedagogy. And

15:47

another thing

15:49

that we focus on is our regional,

15:50

CSTA chapters.

15:51

And so a goal is for chapter

15:54

leaders to select

15:56

what's most relevant to

15:58

teachers in their area and find

16:00

teachers and facilitators to, like

16:01

lead PD locally.

16:02

So we rely heavily

16:03

on that. So they, a combination

16:05

of local networks, centrally provided

16:07

things, online and in-person options.

16:09

I think choice of flexibility piece

16:11

that you mentioned there is really, really important.

16:13

Super. Well, Thank you BT. It's

16:15

been a pleasure talking to you, and I hope you enjoy the

16:17

remainder of the conference.

16:18

Thank you

16:19

Thanks for us.

16:22

It was there to

16:23

just hear Brian's Reflections on PD and

16:25

the CSTA

16:27

conference and we're super,

16:29

super grateful to Brian and the

16:31

rest of the CSTA

16:32

CSTA team

16:34

for inviting us and supporting us at the

16:36

conference . James

16:39

towards the ends of the conference.

16:40

I saw you sneak off

16:41

on what I thought was a quest for

16:43

yet more free

16:44

swag. But I believe

16:45

you were actually speaking to our

16:47

second guest is

16:48

that...

16:49

Yes, yes, was

16:51

working. I was doing some interviewing

16:52

and not just leaving you all to do the pack-down.

16:54

Which I, you know, I did. Yeah. So

16:57

I had a really great conversation

16:58

with another conference attendee Elizabeth Bacon

17:00

who's an educator and curriculum

17:02

developer who's worked with

17:04

organisations such as code.org and

17:07

CoderZ. And so

17:08

yeah we had a little bit of a chat

17:10

about her experience

17:11

of PD. So,

17:14

I sat down with Elizabeth Bacon, we bumped

17:15

into a number of times at a conference,

17:17

and just had a chat, little bit of a chat with

17:18

her about what she's taken away from CSTA 22.

17:22

I like to think I Twitter stalked you is actually what happened.

17:24

Yeah, no

17:26

fine, yeah, yeah, we started up a conversation on Twitter. But then,

17:28

but then yeah, we met him in person,

17:30

and we've had some really great conversations. So we're

17:32

at the end of the conference now, Elizabeth, if you

17:35

reflect back on the last 3-4 days,

17:37

a week, whatever

17:38

it's been, what has

17:40

been your kind of biggest takeaway,

17:42

what are you, What are you, taking

17:43

away from the conference ? What have you learnt? What have you enjoyed? Yeah.

17:46

What are your Reflections ?

17:48

Well, I it's a bit of a blur right now. Yeah.

17:50

Yeah. Because we're just on the

17:51

last day, so technically it's

17:53

still going on, but I think

17:54

that there's

17:55

been this

17:58

conference compared to previous conferences.

17:59

It just feels

18:00

like a lot more polished, a lot

18:02

more sort of like we're getting

18:04

systems in place compared to, you

18:06

know, few years

18:07

ago, when CSTA felt

18:08

like sort of this ragtag group of

18:11

Educators that were coming together

18:12

and, you know, just trying to

18:14

make sure that that computer science

18:16

is going to be in the schools. And now I feel like

18:18

it's we've gotten to

18:20

a point where we're kind of we

18:22

realised, Okay, we're here, we're going to

18:24

stay but how do we

18:25

make this sustainable? How do we make it Equitable? You know,

18:28

what are the things we do to make sure that we're doing it

18:30

well, and that students are

18:33

having a cohesive experience that, you

18:35

know, we've been talking a

18:37

lot about localisation

18:38

at scale, you know,

18:40

how do we meet the diverse needs of our students?

18:42

So I think

18:44

seeing that moving from kind of what

18:46

felt like seven

18:47

years ago is just survival mode in a

18:49

lot of ways to seeing, you know,

18:52

we're at McCormick.

18:52

It's huge, it feels

18:54

very slick.

18:55

Yeah. It's just it

18:57

feels kind of all

18:58

grown up, you know.

19:00

Yeah, I you mean. There's definitely that sort of that

19:02

end point of that journey and it's

19:03

been, it's been really great. I mean, I haven't

19:05

had the opportunity to go to many sessions during

19:07

the conference, but I think I've seen, I think

19:09

I've seen you popping in and out of a few sessions.

19:10

So, what's,

19:12

what's been, what would you kind

19:13

of say, has been made a really good session while you've

19:16

been here, what have you enjoyed

19:16

about the sessions

19:18

or what does good PD look like?

19:20

While you're at a conference like this?

19:22

Well, I of the things that I

19:24

really like about PD is the

19:25

opportunity for educators to talk

19:27

to each other and

19:29

reflect on their practice with other professionals.

19:31

So if, you

19:33

know, if you're at a PDE,

19:33

you've got a giant

19:35

group of experts

19:36

that often don't have a chance to

19:38

share their expertise with one another. So I

19:40

think for me, good

19:41

PD leaves,

19:43

a lot of space for reflection

19:45

on what we're

19:46

doing. But also that

19:47

peer-to-peer communication

19:49

and I

19:51

think for the we think about the PD

19:53

facilitator rather than trainer

19:55

to say, you know, here's this idea

19:57

that we're going to explore together

19:59

jointly as professionals,

20:00

you know, obviously,

20:01

you know, I went to your Workshop

20:03

which is fantastic

20:04

and you know you were definitely

20:05

bringing in a lot of content expertise

20:07

for this new, you know, the semantic

20:09

waves. That is something a lot of

20:11

us have encountered before. So like I

20:13

think you did have to say, this is what it is. Yeah

20:15

but what I

20:17

really appreciated it, what I really appreciated

20:18

was the opportunity

20:20

for us to think about our own lessons and how

20:22

and to conference

20:24

with each other about how would

20:25

this work for you? How do you do it in your classroom?

20:27

Because even when you facilitate

20:29

a PDE, you get so

20:30

many ideas from the other teachers.

20:32

So I think respecting the expertise

20:34

of the Professionals in the room. It's probably

20:35

like the number-one thing, and, and

20:37

for it to be more communicative and

20:40

collaborative than like, performative.

20:42

Yeah, that's really important. And I think

20:44

whenever we've delivered PD, we

20:46

try to kind of,

20:46

you've got to sort

20:48

of situate as close to the participant

20:50

in the room as close to their practice and their

20:52

experience and their expertise because

20:55

they know their students, they know their contacts.

20:56

They know the challenges that they

20:58

face and they're, you know, they are

20:59

bringing a wealth of expertise with

21:01

them. I think something else

21:03

that's been really interesting and it kind of the session

21:05

we did on Thursday, on semantic

21:07

waves but also I think one of the other things

21:09

we've been talking about at the conference is

21:11

sometimes to be able to have that dialogue with

21:13

other teachers it's we need to

21:15

have that that shared language

21:16

. And that's a real challenge,

21:18

is that something like a challenge

21:20

that you've experienced? And do

21:22

you think it's something that we're starting to overcome

21:23

as a teaching professional Community,

21:26

kind of internationally?

21:28

Well, I of the things that, you

21:30

know, when we talk

21:32

about the shared language, or the language that

21:34

we're using around, our pedagogical approaches

21:36

is that we're

21:37

getting a lot of people in CS who

21:38

come from a lot of different disciplines.

21:40

So it's very rare

21:42

at least from, you

21:44

know, at least over here for a

21:46

teacher to have graduated from teacher College

21:48

saying, I'm going

21:49

to, I'm going to teach CS. Just we're

21:51

not there yet, we're getting there, but we're not

21:53

there yet, so a lot

21:54

of the kind of

21:56

when we talk

21:57

about our instructional strategies, we're

22:00

getting them from literacy. We're getting them from

22:02

maths. We're getting them from science and

22:04

what's happened. Then we're also

22:06

getting a lot of people from

22:07

Tech. Who didn't go

22:09

to teacher school

22:10

and maybe have their own experiences

22:12

in education,

22:12

but being a passenger on that

22:15

ship is not the

22:15

same as you know, like trying to

22:18

navigate that ship. So it's a

22:19

very there are

22:21

a lot of people coming in with a diverse set of

22:23

experiences which can

22:24

make what we're doing really

22:26

robust and, you

22:27

know, we can meet the needs of a lot

22:29

of students, but it can also be

22:31

hard. You know, when we talk

22:32

about, for instance inquiry based

22:35

learning or, you

22:36

know, some other,

22:38

you know, other strategies that we

22:39

use, that can mean something really

22:41

specific to some people, and then

22:42

it means something different to somebody else. And

22:44

I think that's

22:45

been sort of a challenge when, you

22:47

know, I've been talking to other

22:49

people who are in the curriculum development space, or

22:51

in the PL space. Is

22:52

what what

22:55

exactly do you mean by that?

22:56

Not not because I'm trying to challenge you, but

22:58

let's make sure we're on the same

22:59

page. So I think the

23:01

the work and I know you said this

23:03

is not an ad for yourself, but the work you're

23:04

doing with like the

23:06

Big Book of Pedagogy has been

23:07

so helpful that, you

23:09

know, when somebody

23:10

says, for example,

23:11

PRIMM it's like people know what

23:13

that means and that's something

23:15

that was specifically created for this

23:17

space and

23:19

it's not necessarily a surprise. It's one

23:22

of those things that when teachers look at it they're

23:23

like, well, of course or I'm

23:25

already doing it. Yeah but now we

23:27

have a name for it and now that

23:29

we've kind of like operationalised it we're

23:31

able to go out and

23:32

sort of like take it to the next

23:34

level and share resources in a way

23:36

that wasn't really possible before because

23:39

that there's the there's

23:41

the underlying sort of learning

23:43

Sciences Theory. And then there are

23:45

these strategies

23:46

that we use and

23:47

then these concrete

23:48

how are the strategies implemented

23:49

in the classroom? And sometimes

23:51

I think that middle layer of

23:53

just what are the

23:54

what are the systems and strategies that we

23:56

can talk about for this specific,

23:58

You know, this discipline specific

23:59

pedagogy is kind of missing.

24:01

So we're sort of teachers, know what

24:03

they're doing and they're doing a lot of good

24:05

stuff. But then it's like, how do we share that? If

24:07

we can't talk about it.

24:09

Yeah, and really important, and I think just going

24:11

back to what you were saying about the whole

24:12

you know Computing,

24:14

kind of being a broad Church.

24:15

Like a really, we've got to discipline as a

24:18

discipline. It is such a broad discipline that

24:20

touches upon so

24:20

many other subjects

24:22

and disciplines that it makes

24:24

sense that we have people that are coming from Tech

24:25

and from science and maths and English and all

24:27

of those are the subjects and though they're

24:30

bringing their own subject specific pedagogy and ideas

24:33

and expertise. And that does mean

24:35

that we're in this really exciting

24:36

space where we

24:38

are. We've got some really great

24:39

pedagogy already, but we're also developing new

24:41

pedagogy all the

24:42

time. And so this

24:44

is the book that we've produced and the principles.

24:45

It's a, it's a snapshot in time

24:48

and we will

24:49

build and grow

24:50

that. But I think

24:51

that that double-edged

24:53

sword of having people that are

24:54

coming in without experience of

24:56

computing. They're bringing a lot into the discipline

24:58

but they're also having to learn a lot and

25:00

take I meet them. You know, we might often

25:01

have the same words for very

25:03

different things in different disciplines that we're having to

25:05

kind of navigate that challenge.

25:07

And I think, I

25:09

guess my last question to you because we talked

25:10

about this a little bit in a conversation the other day was

25:12

around, sort of the different

25:14

forms that PD can take it. So we're

25:16

here at a conference,

25:16

we've got physical presence. We've got

25:19

people talking to each other in

25:20

person and

25:23

I think sometimes PD can is

25:23

almost like a

25:25

capital letter, kind of PD, which

25:26

is like a, you know,

25:27

in a space with other people

25:29

being facilitated by somebody.

25:31

But for me PD can

25:32

take a whole

25:34

range of other

25:35

forms. And I think you kind of echoed

25:36

that a conversation we had to the day.

25:38

So how else can teachers engage in

25:40

effective PD that

25:41

doesn't involve them traveling

25:43

or talking to other people maybe.

25:45

Right, I they're kind of two Dimensions to that

25:47

which is like what are the resources

25:49

available? And what's the kind of

25:52

what's the process through? Which are engaging in it and

25:54

also sort of what

25:55

sort of PD is our

25:57

teachers looking

25:58

for and at a point in time because,

25:59

you know, we have teachers who

26:01

really are kind of thrown into this

26:03

and they are, you know, their

26:05

teachers but they haven't done Computing before

26:07

but and then their their

26:09

needs for

26:12

PD, you know, they like they kind of need that

26:13

boot camp of like I just want to get into the classroom.

26:15

Tell me what to do. Tell me what

26:17

to say. And then maybe after a

26:19

while, they're going to be able

26:20

to do more of the

26:22

sort of PD that we're seeing

26:23

here with people

26:24

who have already gone through that process

26:26

and they're like, okay, I'm going to expand my

26:27

practice. I'm going to reflect.

26:28

So I think that's one dimension

26:30

but then I think the other dimension that you were talking about is

26:32

yes, you can go to

26:34

the week-long summer workshop

26:36

and be in person

26:38

with everybody and it's going to

26:39

be an amazing transformative experience.

26:41

But then

26:43

there are

26:43

also we do

26:47

have opportunities like

26:48

within our local communities, of

26:50

building that community of practice of just

26:52

communicating with our

26:53

peers. So I think that's sort of

26:55

informal space of

26:56

you have that problem. You know,

26:58

here's how I did it. I think there's there's that too

27:00

. Sorry I'm sort of thinking

27:02

while I'm talking

27:03

then, so it's a little bit hard. But there's,

27:06

you know, those sorts of informal

27:07

conversations or this hallway conversation,

27:09

so there's Teachers Lounge conversations

27:11

I have to say I worked at a K-12

27:13

and I was always

27:14

kind of like looking at what the I worked in the high school. I

27:16

was always looking at what the elementary teachers

27:18

were doing because I was like, I was

27:19

like you guys are,

27:21

you know, you're

27:22

into the manipulatives, you're into, you

27:24

know, all of these things that we

27:25

know could be good for everybody but they're

27:27

just so necessary

27:28

for, you know, those those

27:30

younger kids and but my kids

27:31

loved it too. You know, when we were doing paper

27:34

craft stuff, they loved it. So,

27:35

getting those conversations but also

27:37

just giving yourself that

27:40

space to sit down and reflect

27:41

and that's something I'm not good at,

27:43

you know, it's like, are we, you

27:45

know, we get so

27:46

kind of

27:48

like, bogged down with the prepping and the doing,

27:50

and the marking and the assessing

27:51

and everything and it's like, do I have time to

27:53

just sit down and read something? And generally

27:56

it's on the plane like that's, that's when I

27:58

can read. Is when I'm on the plane. So

27:59

I think

28:01

there are a lot of forms that PD can take,

28:02

but I would kind of have a caveat there

28:04

that that that's

28:06

work time. That's time that teachers

28:08

need. We need to recognise that if a

28:10

teacher is sitting down and reading the Big

28:12

Book of Pedagogy like they're working, are we

28:14

giving them space in their

28:16

workday to do that? Because if we're

28:17

not, then you know,

28:19

they're not only will they not have the time to do it,

28:21

but we're not going to have the cognitive energy to

28:23

actually process all of that. And

28:25

that's, that's

28:27

kind of a danger there.

28:29

Again, bit of an issue in the, you

28:30

know, like sort of

28:31

PD events.

28:34

They often like we're certainly in the

28:35

UK. If I say I'm going to go to this course.

28:38

Well OK, you're going to need time

28:39

to go to that course. And I'm

28:40

going to, we're going to pay for to get a supply

28:42

teacher in. But for you to say, I

28:44

need some time to go and listen to

28:46

a podcast, have a conversation with another teacher,

28:48

visit another school, read this book because

28:51

you don't have to go anywhere

28:53

...

28:54

That's Sunday nights for.

28:55

Yeah, just your evening, right?

28:58

Or even a supply teacher so that I can go, observe my peers, you know,

29:00

and see what they're doing in the classroom.

29:02

Yeah, I some ways, actually

29:04

being in the classroom, delivering

29:05

lessons in itself is

29:07

a really great form of PD. And

29:08

so you were

29:10

saying the idea of kind of like, bootable bootstrapping

29:13

kind of giving people some

29:15

content to just say, just go and teach

29:16

this be reassured.

29:17

This this will,

29:19

this is effective, this will work.

29:20

Here's what you might want to think

29:21

about but just making sure that

29:23

they have that, their focus can

29:24

be not on the concepts, and the

29:26

content and having to plan the

29:28

lesson. But just thinking about, I

29:30

am going to focus in this lesson on

29:31

my pupil relationships

29:33

and getting them to talk to

29:34

each other or use

29:35

language. I think

29:37

giving them the space to do that is really important.

29:39

And I think that's where,

29:40

you know, organisations like code.org

29:42

and a Raspberry

29:44

Pi and other organisations that are providing content

29:46

can provide people with resources that just

29:48

mean they can focus on the teaching

29:50

and learning .

29:51

Right, and think it is important

29:53

with that. You know

29:54

we have these resources that are really rich with

29:57

with a lot

30:00

of research based strategies that.

30:01

Let's at least give teachers the heads-up.

30:04

This is what's going on because otherwise

30:06

you're kind of thrown in and these

30:07

are smart, you know,

30:09

educated professionals with a lot of

30:11

expertise. Let's tell them. This is

30:13

why we're doing it this way. You know,

30:14

I'm not going to make you figure out the learning

30:16

objectives. This is what it is. You don't need to reverse engineer

30:18

my lesson. Yeah, you know, let me, let

30:20

me tell you what's going on here.

30:22

But also, doesn't work for you, change it .

30:25

Absolutely.

30:26

Super. been an absolute pleasure

30:27

to talk to you throughout the whole on whole conference

30:29

...

30:30

So glad I meet you in person, I know you did answer my Twitter.

30:33

Yes, yes. so much.

30:34

Well, what

30:37

was a great conversation and I think,

30:39

you know, to try and some wider perspectives. We asked

30:41

our wider

30:49

audience , what do you think

30:50

makes a great Computing PD

30:52

experience ? And

30:54

former guest on the podcast

30:55

Cat Lamin, sort of

30:57

shared her Reflections, which she's

31:00

been very fortunate to experience some excellent

31:02

PD over the

31:03

years. And one of the key things is having facilitators

31:05

who are passionate and enthusiastic.

31:07

And that

31:10

gives they give you lots of opportunities

31:11

to talk and work creatively with new

31:13

interesting people.

31:14

And when you leave, you, leave feeling

31:17

excited, engaged,

31:18

And eager .

31:20

That's the key. I think, if you're not leaving,

31:22

feeling excited,

31:23

that's a

31:25

worry.

31:25

And Andy

31:28

Kali has also sent us his

31:30

thoughts. He has given a few kind

31:31

of clear, you know,

31:33

key ideas to what he thinks makes a

31:34

great and PD session and that's training

31:37

that has a clear purpose. Improves

31:40

your practice, of subject knowledge,

31:41

has time

31:44

built into actually apply it, which I

31:46

definitely agree is really, really important and that

31:49

you might even get some follow-up

31:51

to it because sometimes I think

31:53

you're just, you

31:53

know, it's

31:56

just a one-off kind of thing where you

31:57

don't ever get a chance to kind of

31:59

go back to anybody with questions. That could be a bit

32:01

difficult, so totally agree with you that

32:03

Andy. And

32:06

he's also said, just

32:07

like us having

32:09

that in-person

32:10

kind of experience

32:11

is, I

32:14

don't know. Perhaps a lot more valuable

32:15

and that

32:18

you get the chance to get good biscuits

32:19

Andy has put. So

32:20

just agree with

32:21

absolutely everything he said here.

32:23

Yeah, I

32:27

pick on one thing that he did. Say, sometimes

32:28

you as computer scientists, we can be

32:30

susceptible to the

32:31

oh I'm going to learn about

32:33

this new Gadget or

32:34

new toy or new tech.

32:35

And I think we wouldn't be Computer scientists

32:37

without Instinct

32:38

but we've also got

32:39

to kind of resist that sometimes

32:41

and make sure that we're focusing

32:42

on how we improve our classroom practice. So if you

32:46

have a question

32:47

for us or comment

32:48

about our discussion

32:49

today and you can

32:50

email via [email protected],

32:53

or you can tweet us

32:54

at at HelloWorld_Edu,

32:56

my thanks

33:00

to Brian and Elizabeth for sharing their time,

33:01

experience and expertise with us today, we're

33:04

gonna be taking a short break now over the summer

33:06

but we'll the back in a few weeks

33:07

time for another series of the Hello

33:09

World podcast.

33:10

So Gemma, what did we learn?

33:11

Simple

33:14

that we have managed extremely well over

33:16

the last, you know,

33:18

two, three or however, many years is now in a

33:20

virtual online

33:21

world, but

33:23

nothing quite beats,

33:24

the joy of in-person

33:25

chats with teachers.

33:28

Well, I having run several

33:29

sessions, I think great PD is built

33:31

on really colourful sticky notes.