0:22

Hey, y'all, welcome to a

0:25

new episode. First

0:27

new episode. I feel like I have a lot of like

0:30

uh, identifying words that are supposed to go

0:32

before episode. First new

0:34

Yes episode of Her with

0:37

Amina Brown and I am your host,

0:39

Amina Brown. I want to thank all of you for

0:42

tuning in to the real lotch

0:44

of my podcast. I'm so excited to

0:46

be a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network

0:49

and all of our partners there

0:52

and at my Heart Radio. So

0:54

hello to all of you. This

0:56

is the first of many new

0:59

episodes. Theyke for tuning into the best

1:01

of Her and even more

1:04

best to come. Y'all can see that I'm just throwing

1:06

all sorts of words around because I'm so excited

1:08

to be in here talking to you. What can you expect

1:10

from this podcast? You can expect every

1:13

episode we'll have just a

1:15

little catch up time, a little time to

1:17

talk about maybe what's been going on this

1:19

week. Could be for me personally,

1:21

because I just feel like I'm a

1:23

person that a lot of very

1:26

crazy things happened to me and they turn out to

1:28

be very interesting stories to share with you.

1:30

Could also be a time that we talked about maybe

1:32

some current events or a cool video

1:35

that I watched online all sorts of things. I

1:37

love to have a segment of this podcast

1:39

that is really me borrowing a little

1:41

bit from things that I would do on stage

1:43

when performing. So I've got a lot

1:46

of fun, comedic bits and

1:48

poetic readings that I can't wait to share with

1:50

you all. And in this podcast,

1:52

sometimes there will be a guest here. We

1:55

will invite a guest into our

1:57

her living room and

2:00

and when I bring those guests into the

2:02

living room, we will talk about

2:04

different things that they may be doing in their

2:06

work in their life that are helping

2:08

them to access joy, that are helping

2:11

them to continue to be inspired.

2:13

And I hope as you hear their stories that that's

2:15

inspiring to YouTube. One thing you can

2:17

always expect from this podcast. You can

2:19

expect that we will be centering the stories

2:21

of women of color here. And when I say

2:24

women of color, what do I mean, I mean Black

2:26

women, Indigenous women, Asian

2:29

women, in Latin X women. You can expect

2:31

those stories to be centered here. You

2:33

can expect that when I bring a guest here, it's someone

2:35

who's work and life that I

2:37

really find inspiring and I hope you will

2:39

too. And when we don't have a guest. I'd

2:42

like to call this segment a time

2:44

for me to pontificate, to time that

2:46

I can share with you some things that

2:49

I'm learning, things that I think are important

2:51

for you to know. Maybe put you onto

2:54

some music, some books, some art,

2:57

uh some people that you can

2:59

also be inspired by. And you can always

3:01

expect at the end of every episode,

3:03

whether I do this or I invite a guest

3:05

to do this, I will always pick

3:08

a woman of color for this segment.

3:10

Give her a crown and

3:12

give her a crown is a time to think about

3:15

a woman of color who is doing amazing

3:18

and inspiring work and shout her out.

3:20

I also hope that when you think of give

3:23

her a crown, that you think of women in your

3:25

life who deserve a crown,

3:27

deserve to be celebrated. And it could be something

3:29

really huge in their life that deserves celebration.

3:32

It could be that you are so proud of

3:34

what to some people may seem like a

3:36

small thing. For some of us, we deserve

3:39

a crown for getting out of bed. For some of us,

3:41

we deserve a crown for caring for our aging

3:43

parents. Some of us deserve a crown

3:45

for not cussing someone out that day,

3:47

right, So we want to be able to give the

3:49

people crowns who deserve

3:52

them. So that's a little bit of what you can expect from

3:54

her with Amina Brown. And I am inviting

3:56

you into this audio

3:59

living room that we have, so I hope you're getting

4:01

comfy. I hope you took your shoes off. I

4:03

hope you have a pillow that

4:06

you can hold onto. But if you're driving,

4:08

don't do any of that. Hold onto the staring wheel

4:10

and focus on that. Okay,

4:12

good yo,

4:15

Okay. We are, as of

4:17

the recording of this episode, in the middle

4:19

of a global pandemic, and I

4:21

am living here in the US. I

4:23

live in Atlanta, Georgia, so we

4:26

are in the thick of it here.

4:28

And I've learned a few things about myself during

4:30

this pandemic. It has been

4:33

a very interesting time of ups

4:35

and downs. My life before the pandemic

4:37

was very, very busy, So there

4:40

were a couple of weeks during our time

4:42

of quarantine that I just enjoyed having

4:44

some time off and just not doing anything and

4:46

eating whatever I wanted. I will

4:48

tell you a couple of things I've learned about myself

4:50

during this time, and maybe you also are

4:52

learning these things. Number One,

4:55

I learned that a pandemic for

4:58

me is not a great time to are

5:00

a new eating plan. I had

5:02

planned to do a lot of things before the pandemic.

5:05

I was going to get on this like high

5:07

protein, low carb situation,

5:10

And as soon as the pandemic came in, I was immediately

5:12

like, oops, craving bread and craving

5:14

cupcakes, and that is what I'm gonna do,

5:17

eating pasta whatever, That's

5:19

what I'm having. Another thing I've learned

5:21

about myself since the pandemic is

5:23

it's creating some really interesting

5:26

social strata. Right. I'm having

5:28

a lot of conversation with my girlfriends about

5:31

how do you decide who's in your social

5:34

distancing bubble right? And

5:36

I feel like part of this is judging, but

5:39

I'm I don't know. I'm trying to figure out if it's

5:41

judging or not, so you all can tell me

5:43

if you think this is judging. But I feel

5:45

like there are different things

5:48

that I'm looking for when I'm trying to find

5:50

out if someone can be

5:52

in my social distance bubble right.

5:55

Because at first we were all I

5:57

can't say we were all, but some of us

5:59

were being very strict about

6:02

quarantining and social distancing. Right,

6:04

that basically meant that you weren't leaving your

6:06

house unless you had to

6:09

write to get food or

6:11

whatever other necessary things you need to get.

6:13

But otherwise you were staying at home,

6:16

even most of us that had

6:18

jobs that could be done from home. That's

6:21

what we did, right, And I want

6:23

to also stop here and give a special shout out

6:25

to the people whose jobs could not be done

6:27

from home that were and are still

6:30

helping our country runs. So big

6:32

shout out to all of our essential workers,

6:34

all the people working in the medical profession,

6:37

all the people working in our grocery stores,

6:39

people doing deliveries, just everyone

6:42

doing a central work. Thank you. Thank you

6:44

those jobs cannot be done from home, and those

6:46

of us who are staying from home but not be able to

6:48

stay home as much as we do if it weren't

6:50

for you, So thank you. Want to give that shout out there.

6:53

Okay, So while you're trying

6:55

to figure out who's in your social distance bubble,

6:58

there's like all these questions like, okay,

7:00

are people are your people wearing masks?

7:02

Right? And like when they say social

7:05

distancing, what do they really mean? And

7:08

it kind of feels a little to me, like when

7:10

I was dating and how

7:12

there were just certain little like catch phrases

7:15

or different little things that a guy

7:17

might say that I would immediately be like, oh,

7:20

no, we can't date. Like if

7:22

I was talking to a guy. I remember I was dating this one guy

7:24

and I asked him, Hey, do you have like the

7:26

theme song or just a

7:28

song that motivates you, that really gets

7:30

you going? And he was like, no, I

7:33

don't have a theme song. He was like, I don't even

7:35

really listen to music that much. And immediately

7:38

in my mind, I'm like, who, we can't date, Like

7:40

I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what to

7:42

do with the fact that you don't listen to music,

7:45

Like what what are you doing with your entire

7:47

life if you're not listening

7:49

to music? I don't know. So I find myself

7:52

in conversations with people like family

7:54

members, friends, whoever, and we're

7:56

talking and like they might say something

7:58

someplace they've been, and as soon as they

8:00

say that, I'm like, wow, you can't be on my bubble. And

8:04

I feel like such a judgy person

8:07

for thinking that way. But these are

8:09

the types of decisions we're having to make now.

8:11

You know, like if I talk to someone and

8:13

they're like, yeah, I just went on this date last

8:16

night, and you're like, oh, like on

8:18

Zoom you went on like a Zoom date or like a FaceTime

8:20

date, and they're like, no, No, I went out

8:23

like on a date with this person. We went out

8:25

and we just hung out and you know, we

8:27

held hands. Like they start saying some of those

8:29

facts, and You're like, oh, no, you can't be on

8:31

my bubble. That's how I feel I've turned

8:33

into the person that is judging those people. Also,

8:37

I did not realize how much I missed

8:40

just walking through a store

8:43

just because I wanted to see

8:45

what was in there, Like I

8:47

haven't done that for months until we

8:49

went to Whole Foods and

8:52

there is a t J Max next to the

8:54

Whole Foods closest to our house, and

8:56

it had not been open because you know t J Max,

8:59

like many stores have been closed. And when

9:01

I went to Whole Foods and

9:03

saw that TJ Max open, like I really

9:06

could not even think of anything I have need of

9:08

to buy in TJ Max. But

9:11

just the feeling of walking through the store

9:13

and being like, oh, look at those candles,

9:15

Oh look at those face masks. I

9:18

wonder what that shampoo smells like. I

9:21

did not know how much I missed dear

9:23

old t J Max until I had

9:25

the opportunity to just walk through there wearing

9:27

my little mask. And you know what they had that

9:29

I really needed is a jade

9:31

roller for my face and you know what, it

9:34

was eight dollars. And there's just there's

9:36

just something about shopping in person

9:39

and getting to walk through there and just come

9:41

upon an item like I don't know if there's a way

9:43

we can kind of replicate that online,

9:46

but that's not how online shopping is

9:48

for me. It's like a lot of searching and scrolling

9:50

and googling. You're not having fun

9:52

like walking through there, and just like sniffing

9:54

candles, you can't do that stuff online. So shout

9:57

out t J Max and all the people that work there.

9:59

I thank you for service. And

10:01

lastly, I'm a person who loves going

10:03

to the grocery store in general. That's

10:06

one of my favorite mundane tasks.

10:08

Like I just I mean, I do

10:10

make a list and I get really like organized

10:12

about it. I have a certain like way I like to

10:14

go through the store and all. And

10:17

I never thought that I would be so excited to go

10:19

to the grocery store, even more so than usual,

10:21

because for so long that's like my only outing.

10:24

I go so long without leaving my house, and then

10:26

when I do, I'm like, we're getting up early,

10:29

we are putting on masks, we are

10:31

going to go see what's in the store. And

10:33

it has been really interesting during this pandemic

10:36

time, the things that are left

10:38

on the shelves and the things that are totally gone,

10:40

like where we live there's still like

10:42

no Lisol. Every now and then

10:44

will come upon like some bleach,

10:47

or come upon like some sort

10:49

of like disinfectant cleaner, and

10:52

it might be a brand we don't even know, but

10:54

we're so excited to find it.

10:56

It's like some sort of treasure hunt type

10:58

situation that I have come to enjoy.

11:01

So shout out to all of the things I've discovered

11:03

about myself during the pandemic. What have you been discovering

11:05

about yourself during the pandemic? I would love for you to

11:07

share it with me online on

11:10

socials. I would love for you to tell me

11:12

all about that. This

11:19

week, I am in conversation with

11:21

Austin Channing Brown and

11:25

what a wonderful and fantastic

11:27

person to welcome into our her living

11:29

room. And I'm also excited to report that

11:33

since we recorded this, Austin

11:36

is now New York Times best selling

11:38

author Austin Channing Brown for

11:40

her book I'm Still Here, Black

11:43

Dignity in a world made for whiteness.

11:46

So listening as Austin and I

11:48

are talking like girlfriends would

11:50

in a living room, because she is one of my girlfriends,

11:53

but we were also talking about the

11:55

importance of centering the narratives

11:57

and experiences of black women. We're

11:59

talking about the importance of celebrating and affirming

12:01

black dignity, and we are talking about some

12:04

of the things that Austin wrote. And I'm still

12:06

here. And if you have not read this book, I encourage

12:08

you to get ahold of it. It

12:11

is a fantastic and important

12:13

read. Check out this conversation with

12:15

me and Austin, y'all.

12:20

I am so just excited

12:23

that Austin has joined me today because

12:25

I want y'all to know everything about

12:28

this book. Because I

12:30

got a few pages into it and I was like, She's

12:32

not gonna do this to me. Like something

12:35

about Austin's book, It's

12:37

like you get you're having like a little bit

12:39

of a Harry Potter feeling. And I didn't really

12:41

read Harry Potter, to be honest, but

12:43

other people that have read it had told me

12:45

that you start reading it and then you

12:48

look up and it's like five am, and you're like,

12:50

wait, I was supposed

12:52

to do other things with my life. And that was

12:54

the feeling I had. I got like a

12:56

few pages in at first, and I was like, oh,

12:58

no, Austin is not doing this to me. I have

13:01

a job, I have things

13:03

that I need to do with my

13:05

life. Please. And

13:08

another reason why I'm so happy to welcome Austin

13:10

to the podcast is because we sort of knew

13:12

of each other in an Internet way. We are

13:15

in uh some similar spaces,

13:18

speaking and different things. And

13:20

we finally met at an

13:22

event and I don't know what

13:24

the sessions was doing, but

13:27

we was not going and

13:29

we got in this corner

13:35

and went in like

13:38

not talking about the weather and

13:41

not talking about no sports teams

13:43

like when like

13:46

immediately was like a black girl meeting

13:49

call to order, like went right there. And

13:52

that was just the beginning of

13:54

these moments that I have loved and

13:56

knowing you Austin, just she has opened

13:58

her home to me when I was

14:00

in some dire straights and she was like,

14:03

just come to my house this. I got this soup

14:07

brock cook because

14:10

it was your birthday. That's right. Good.

14:15

We've had quite a few moments together that have

14:18

involved in food and your conversations. So

14:20

we're we're letting you all in on a

14:22

sliver because it'd be some realness that we're

14:24

obviously not gonna talk about on here, but

14:27

we're gonna let you all at least have a

14:29

small percentage of what this is. I

14:32

wanted to talk to Austin about the dignity

14:34

of the black body because

14:37

this is a theme that is inherent

14:39

in your work period, in

14:42

your speaking, in your preaching, in

14:44

your writing. It's always showing up,

14:46

which I think is so beautiful. So I like to start

14:48

asking each guest and

14:50

origin story questions. I want

14:52

to ask you what was

14:54

one of the earliest memories you can think of

14:57

where inside yourself you were like I

15:00

of being a black girl. So

15:03

I attended UM private white Christian

15:06

schools growing up where I was UM

15:09

initially often the only black girl.

15:11

So there were there would be other um black

15:13

boys in my classroom, but often the only black

15:15

girl, and I remember on a

15:17

very regular basis, all the like teachers

15:20

and students and like the cafeterial

15:23

workers asking me about my hair

15:26

because it could keep a curl,

15:28

because it was thick and

15:31

it was long, and it just

15:33

like really floored them. And this was

15:35

when I was like a little girl, this isn't

15:38

like high school with you know, the weave and

15:40

the swoops and the you know what I'm

15:42

saying, the updud, the

15:45

glitter, the you know, I wouldn't

15:47

doing all that yet, just my hair

15:50

doing what it does as a little black girl with the barette,

15:52

you know what I mean. It was just people

15:55

loved it. I loved it. Now

15:57

I woke confess I didn't like getting my hair done.

16:00

Life be hard. There was a lot

16:02

of wanting to be yelling and screaming,

16:04

and it was it was not screaming

16:06

on the please, because

16:08

we're told that you're not gonna be out

16:11

here screaming like

16:13

I'm hurting you, but you are,

16:15

but you hurting me. This does

16:17

not feel good. And the sea this

16:20

fellow was no longer doing it. Please.

16:22

You are bringing up some black grown memories right

16:25

now, like like it was like

16:27

a rare moment I was in a salide. There

16:29

were definitely something like sister

16:31

someone so it is about to corn row her daughter

16:33

hair her house, and

16:36

she going on your hair too,

16:38

and I'm like, but I'm uncomfortable,

16:41

and it's

16:45

yeah, so yes. I just

16:47

remember taking great pride in my

16:50

hair because it just moved so

16:52

differently. I actually, when I was thinking

16:54

about this question, my answer is about

16:56

hair too. I think for me,

16:59

I was probably wably, maybe

17:01

six five or six. I

17:03

had a friend and her

17:06

mother knew how to corn row really well,

17:09

and so she could do the ones where you could

17:11

get like a little design and stuff,

17:13

and then it went down to your you

17:15

know, my shoulders and she would put

17:17

the beads on the end. Who I

17:20

would swing that hair? I

17:22

thought I was in a

17:25

music video. I don't know who else

17:27

was performing and what they

17:29

were. It was not music. I was in

17:31

a video that was pretending to be music

17:34

video with no music, and it was just me like

17:37

the clack of those bees. I just

17:39

felt like I am stunting on everybody,

17:42

Like, you know, my father

17:45

actually used their corn roll my hair. Really,

17:47

come on, dad, your daddy

17:50

about to get the dad Award out

17:52

there? Because I'm like

17:54

I don't even Please don't take away

17:56

my black girl cards, y'all, but I don't even know

17:58

how to corn row. I'd be out here, my

18:00

fingers would be like this, like I'll be like

18:05

this, like this, maybe

18:08

I should try on the baby's offers,

18:11

right, because let

18:13

me try Like hair, my situation

18:16

was not coming together, but that it is

18:18

interesting that we both felt that moment

18:20

about our hair. And I still feel

18:23

like now a lot of times

18:25

that I have that like, oh I love being a black

18:27

woman moment. It's like something

18:29

that my hair is doing that I'm like, you

18:32

stand out, you take up space,

18:35

you know, swing it around, and

18:37

I love that we're so not intentionally

18:39

so, but I love that there's so many secrets around our hair.

18:42

So child, I can't get on a plane and not have

18:44

somebody be like how long did

18:46

that take? And I'd be like, well,

18:49

listen, there's multiple ways doing this.

18:51

So yes,

18:55

this is this is me in the aisle at Target,

18:58

like being on the natural hair aisle at Target.

19:00

This is me becoming a consultant.

19:03

And you can tell that, like the black woman next

19:05

to you is trying to see if she can catch your

19:07

eye, like if if you're in the mood

19:09

for that conversation if you have time, and

19:12

I'll later around and then she'll

19:15

finally say, so, I'm looking

19:17

for a moisturizer and I

19:19

tried this, points to rejected

19:21

product. I tried this and

19:24

it did not do the right things for my hair.

19:26

But then my girlfriend said, try this, but I'm afraid

19:29

to spend the money because I don't want to have and

19:31

I'm like, well, says, if you're looking for a moisturizer like

19:33

this, you could try this one. If you won't want, this made us

19:35

some organic stuff, try this if you want. Like

19:38

we know, had a whole twenty

19:40

minute conversation just on the

19:42

target aisle. For me, it almost

19:44

always starts with money. Girl. You know

19:46

these products expended. The

19:52

last time this happened, the Little Snails

19:55

clerk

19:56

was idea,

20:00

all need any help, and she was like, y'all

20:02

get any sales going on please?

20:06

She was like, well, I don't see it any

20:09

but um that tea tree oil

20:11

down there is on sale, and we both

20:13

looked at each other and laughed. So I'm

20:17

gonna put like a few drops on my scalp and it would

20:19

what's next? Need

20:22

a little more because

20:26

hair will be out here looking like the top of

20:28

a cotton swab. If you if

20:31

all you have is te tree oil, it's

20:33

gonna be so some struggles.

20:37

I'm like my my my hair need room to

20:39

breathe, It needs

20:41

its moisture out here in these streets,

20:43

like I need to provide my hair with the things

20:46

that my hair needs for this world. Okay,

20:48

you mentioned in your book a poem

20:50

that I love by Paul Lawrence Dunbar.

20:53

You mentioned we wear the Mask, and you

20:55

talked about this quite a bit

20:57

in your book, which I loved and I want to read. We

20:59

wear them. Ask for anyone here that's

21:01

never heard this poem, and you should know this name

21:04

Paula and Stumbar, because he's

21:06

amazing. This poem, We wear

21:08

the Mask, says, we wear the mask that grins

21:10

and lies. It hides our cheeks

21:12

and shades our eyes. This debt we pay

21:14

to human guile with torn and bleeding

21:17

hearts. We smile and mouth with myriad

21:19

subtleties. Why should

21:21

the world be overwise in counting

21:23

all our tears and size? Nay,

21:26

let them only see us while

21:29

we wear the mask. We smile,

21:32

But Oh Great Christ, our cries

21:34

to thee from tortured souls arise,

21:36

we sing, but oh the clay

21:39

is viled beneath our feet, and

21:41

long the mile. But let

21:43

the world dream. Otherwise we

21:46

wear the mask. Oh it's

21:48

it's beautiful and haunting, right,

21:51

I mean the fact that this could move

21:53

over centuries, It's

21:57

amazing and I'm still

21:59

reading it, like let them only

22:01

see us while we wear the mask.

22:03

Paul Lawrence Dunbar speak a word.

22:06

Some of what I hear in the theme of

22:08

your book and just your writing your

22:10

work is this idea that

22:13

as a black person, that you

22:15

do not have to wear the mask, which

22:18

to me lends itself to being

22:21

unapologetically black, and

22:24

that there are so many times that

22:26

many black people we obviously

22:29

I joke with my friends all the time, like you know, waking

22:31

up black every day, not not

22:33

have not woken up a morning that

22:36

I was not black, woke up every morning black, but

22:39

sometimes have been black and apologetic

22:42

for it. Talk to me about how

22:45

we can deal with the layers of that

22:48

mask. How do we I don't want to say arrived

22:50

unapologetically black. I think that takes

22:52

time to work through. But how

22:55

do we start looking towards that? What? What would

22:57

you say, yeah, I think a big

22:59

part of this book is my journey towards

23:02

that. Right. So when

23:04

I first read that poem, I

23:06

was wearing a mask, and that's why it was so jarring,

23:09

because it was like, whoa,

23:13

I'm doing this like currently right here

23:15

in this room where I'm the only black girl in

23:17

my English class.

23:19

I just really didn't know what to

23:21

do with that because I had never really thought

23:23

about and didn't had the terms like code

23:26

switching, and you know, like I was just

23:28

out here living life, and I thought, man,

23:32

there's a lot of things that all

23:34

the folks in this classroom, including the ones that

23:36

I really like and the one the folks that I really

23:38

admire, I don't know about

23:42

my life that other

23:44

black students in my gospel choir or at the

23:46

lunch table or whatever do. And

23:48

so it was really my first time

23:51

I was like, oh, what am I when

23:53

I'm around white folks? What am I

23:55

protecting? Which I think is a

23:58

real thing, right the Egypt versus

24:01

what am I hiding? And

24:03

it's been still is it has

24:06

been a journey to figure out

24:08

in what spaces can I be unapologetically

24:11

black? You know, it's just not

24:13

always safe and I've been in plenty

24:15

of jobs in particularly where

24:18

it wasn't it wasn't safe grow How

24:21

do you discern when

24:23

a place is safe to be unapologetically

24:26

black or not just real rough? But

24:28

I look for signs. So

24:30

during an interview, like an interview for

24:33

a job, girl, I take that thing to a who

24:35

new level. I am probably the

24:37

most black in an interview because

24:40

I am like, I just

24:42

like for a double shot on it, just

24:45

in case, because I feel like, if you can handle the double

24:47

shot, you can probably handle how black I actually

24:49

am. I love

24:51

this. I love it like I'm

24:54

black, Like I came straight from Wakanda to

24:57

come straight to this interview. Yes do

24:59

you want all it is? And

25:01

then I toned it down like one I actually arrived you once

25:04

I got the job. I actually, you

25:06

know I

25:09

love it. I wish I was all that

25:11

I had pretended to be, but you know I

25:13

can't play space to save my life. So so

25:15

yes, I think I'm getting wiser

25:18

about particularly this is where I need to make a long

25:20

term commitment, like like job,

25:23

I think for other spaces because

25:25

I'm in and out like white evangelicals

25:27

them a lot with speaking and preaching and that kind

25:29

of thing I one

25:31

have started to ask questions about

25:33

how they heard about me, what they've read

25:36

that they really appreciate, to kind

25:38

of give me an idea of whether or

25:40

not it's really me they

25:42

want, or if it's an idea of me

25:44

that they want speak word?

25:49

Is it really me they want

25:51

or is it the idea of me? Speak

25:53

a word? Austin and I started doing

25:55

other things too, like, um, there

25:57

was a conference I went to recently where there

26:00

was like just a lot of conversation around

26:02

race. You know, they'd be doing

26:05

the most job, and basically like

26:07

a professor had made an assertion that

26:09

race is not about gospel issue. Talking about racial

26:11

justice is like listen job.

26:14

And I was okay. And

26:17

so to the conference planners

26:19

where this was going to take place, I say, do

26:21

you know what I need all exit smart.

26:24

I'm gonna need to know that security is in

26:26

the room. I want

26:28

to know if somebody makes a rockist

26:30

while I'm preaching, which one of you white folks

26:32

is gonna get up and calm everybody down

26:34

while I go ahead a seat? Um,

26:37

you know, I want a public apology if something

26:40

jumps off, you know what I mean? Like I just

26:42

had some you know, some security measures.

26:45

And if they had written back and been

26:47

like, oh, we don't think that's necessary, like

26:49

worse it'll be, you know what I'm saying,

26:52

if they didn't take it seriously, that would

26:54

have been her NU. So sorry,

26:56

I can be there via Skype. Would

26:58

you like to have a because

27:02

when I'm Skype, I'm safe. I could

27:04

be someplace where I'm saying, so the

27:07

foolish that starts, you know

27:09

what I'm saying. And for that conficular

27:12

she was like, oh my gosh. You

27:14

know, she certainly was like I don't think anything

27:16

would happen. But her next sentence was

27:19

here's your person, you

27:21

know. And when I and when I arrived,

27:24

she took me into the space where I

27:26

was speaking so that I could see where the exits

27:28

were. Like she just took it very seriously,

27:31

so I'd be looking for signs you know that

27:33

the white folks around me, the white folks in charge,

27:36

the white folks who brought me in, are

27:39

taking my safety

27:41

serious way. And

27:43

sometimes I don't even make it about race girlfriends.

27:45

Sometimes I will even just be like, you know what, I'm

27:47

an introvert, so I'm not gonna be at

27:49

that reception I'm gonna be at the hotel

27:51

calling my boo and seeing how my son

27:54

is doing. You know what I'm saying, and if they write

27:56

it back anything other than of

27:58

course, we completely under stand. We're so grateful

28:01

for your time. You know, I'm not. If

28:03

that ain't the response, then I know who I'm dealing

28:05

with. And then all of a sudden, you don't have

28:07

time, like you might have had time

28:09

before that, but now you don't have time speaking

28:12

of the ways that you use

28:14

your voice and platform, which is

28:16

one of the things that I just love

28:19

about you as just

28:21

a person, but I also learned

28:24

a lot from you. Uh and I

28:26

will tell y'all. Austin Channion Brown is one of

28:28

my favorite Twitter follows for

28:31

a couple of reasons. Number one, because

28:34

she is not here for the foolishness, and I always,

28:37

you know, appreciate that. I just have a strong

28:39

appreciation for people that are not here for the foolishness.

28:42

But also, Austin, you do

28:44

something that as a

28:46

poet I do not do very

28:48

well. I am a super

28:51

slow thinker, so

28:53

like a current event

28:55

might happen and then like seven

28:58

months later, I'm like, and that

29:04

has made me think about these things

29:06

that I would like to write in a poem.

29:09

Whereas the current event

29:11

will have happened at like nine am

29:13

before two pm,

29:15

Austin is on Twitter, like a word

29:18

about the such and such that just happened.

29:21

Here is a Twitter toolbox for the ways

29:23

that you cannot be about the foolishness

29:26

that happened this morning at the such and

29:28

such. Here are some resources

29:30

where you can think about reading that

29:32

so that you will not be racist.

29:35

Here are something like Austin

29:37

gave these people the thread

29:40

like you, you are always killing

29:42

the threads, Like every time I'll

29:45

be on the thread like yes, yeah,

29:47

m oh that person trying to comment with the foolishness.

29:50

Oh, Austin, not here for that. Oh the people to follow Austin,

29:52

I'm not here for that. Okay, scroll scroll scrol.

29:55

You know I'm paying attention. So

29:58

when you are using your voice

30:00

in these ways to speak

30:03

very plainly, very

30:05

directly, very clearly

30:07

against racism, against white

30:09

supremacy, I want to start with how

30:12

did you know this is going to

30:14

be a part of my messaging

30:17

as a communicator, Because some people believe that

30:19

those of us who are communicators, writers,

30:22

speakers, artists that really

30:24

we create all these things, but underneath

30:27

them, some people would say, underneath them is

30:29

really all the same message.

30:31

You know that some people, you know, finding

30:33

your calling is like that's what's underneath

30:36

their message. So it really doesn't matter how

30:38

many different retreats, workshops, whatever

30:40

they do, they're still coming

30:42

back to sort of that message.

30:45

And this seems to be one of those

30:47

for you that we can

30:50

not only use our voices but take action

30:52

against racism and white

30:54

supremacy. Do you feel like when you look

30:56

back at your upbringing, you were always like

30:59

this is the person that I was going to become using

31:01

my voice for this, or did another

31:04

moment come in your life where you were like, this

31:07

is what I need to If I'm gonna put pen

31:09

to paper, I need to write about this, you

31:11

know, if I'm going to be on Twitter, I need

31:13

to tweet about this. Like did you have

31:15

a moment like that, this epiphany

31:18

or did it just slowly evolve in a

31:20

way for you? So being a

31:22

communicator is something

31:24

that I was just aware of as a

31:26

child. I remember like being a

31:29

kid, and you know when teachers

31:31

like very first start to ask questions

31:33

about like what you think, like what do you think questions, what

31:35

do you think about this book? What do you think of right? And

31:38

I can remember like raising my

31:40

hand and my other classmates telling

31:42

the teacher to call on me, you know what I mean,

31:45

like just like really weird, Like I

31:47

don't think that's normal. Um,

31:51

And my dad has this video. My guy

31:53

used to do the camera for Sunday services

31:55

to recurt Sunday services back in the VHS days

31:58

come on VHS, and so he would have to go

32:00

early on Saturday mornings to set up the

32:02

video camera and make sure everything was working popularly,

32:04

you know. And he has this video of

32:06

me. I have no idea where it is, child, but he has a video

32:09

of me somewhere where I opened the Hymn

32:11

book and started reading

32:13

it as if I was standing and we in the balcony,

32:15

but I was reading it like

32:17

as if I was standing in the pulpit reading

32:20

the Bible. Like I

32:22

love it. I love it. I'm here

32:25

for it. So being a communicator,

32:27

it's just always been

32:30

in me and I've been very aware of

32:32

it and became a minister when I was fourteen,

32:35

became more dained when I was nineteen. But

32:37

it was in college when I really started to find

32:40

my particular niche around justice,

32:42

um and really developing that passion.

32:45

And so by the time Twitter rolled around,

32:47

I was not an early adopter of Twitter, and

32:49

truth be told, the only reason I got

32:52

on Twitter was because I had started my

32:54

blog and one of my girlfriends was like,

32:56

Austin, I need to be able to share your blog via

32:58

Twitter. I need to be on Twitter so I can tag you

33:00

and share this good blog. And I was like,

33:03

I don't really get it, Like, isn't it just people

33:05

talking about what they did all day?

33:07

I don't need to know who

33:10

you know, who ate a chicken sandwich today?

33:12

Like, I just don't How is this going to enrich my life?

33:14

I don't understand. So I really didn't get it Twitter

33:17

at all. But I don't mind because I was like, she said

33:19

she needed me, you know, I was like, okay, cool. I

33:22

fell in love with the twitters. Yes, I

33:24

like the challenge of it, particularly

33:26

when it was still you know um,

33:31

and I loved how concise

33:33

that could be in a way

33:35

that is very difficult honestly for me to

33:37

be in person. So when I go somewhere

33:40

and speak, inevitably child somebody

33:42

will walk up to me and be like you

33:44

know that was that was not as as

33:47

as hard as you know, like they're searching

33:49

for the word, but what they really trying to say is

33:52

you're a lot nicer than I thought you'd be. I'm

33:59

nice, but I'm not nice about white supremacy.

34:05

Get that straight and bring me some sweet

34:07

tea, you

34:10

know. But I like that about writing in

34:12

general. And I think was where I

34:14

figured that out, that I like that I

34:16

can say the hard things because

34:19

people are reading right,

34:21

you know what I mean. I'm not standing in nobody's face,

34:24

like you will get rid of that white supremacy today,

34:26

you know what I'm saying. I

34:29

am doing no exorcisms, you know. But when

34:31

I write, you know, people have a

34:33

chance to process, they have a chance to

34:36

there's an emotional removal, you

34:38

know, because I'm not standing in front of you, And so

34:40

it just feels like a space where

34:42

I can be unadulterated and

34:45

what I'm thinking and saying and

34:47

just like let the reader deal with that, handle

34:49

that. And I am drawn to folks who

34:52

appreciate that. I'm

34:54

drawn to folks who are like, yes,

34:57

give me more of that, or oh

35:00

I didn't know that term. I'm so glad I have that term

35:02

now or dang, you just put

35:04

language to how I was feeling and I couldn't

35:06

explain it. But you know, now that

35:08

I've read this, I'm like, that's exactly

35:11

it, you know. And so that's how I

35:13

really fell in love with Twitter and decided to go a little

35:15

harder in my writing than I do when

35:17

I'm in person. I want to give a special

35:19

shout out to your girlfriend that number

35:21

one told you to blog and number two told

35:23

you to get on Twitter, So she's

35:26

gonna be a recipient of that. She did that a

35:28

war, because we are appreciative that

35:30

she encouraged you to

35:32

do this. True,

35:35

but I started any of this, it is because

35:37

of a girlfriend. So there was a girlfriend who

35:39

told I need to start a blog. There was a girlfriend who told me I

35:41

had to be on Twitter. There was a girlfriend who took

35:43

me to a meeting that she had

35:45

with an editor and was like, Yo, this

35:47

girl, come write you too, Like every

35:50

everything is because of a girlfriend.

35:53

I love that. I love that, Austin,

35:55

and I love it because I have such

35:57

a great community of girlfriends too. I

36:00

love I love that those moments when

36:02

I might text you out the blue and be like girls,

36:04

let's you such and such what you think

36:06

seeing and we can just order those

36:08

times that we see each other and you can just connect.

36:11

But I love in particular when

36:14

we can have a community of girlfriends that are

36:16

sometimes seeing us

36:19

past what we can see in

36:22

ourselves. That would push push,

36:24

push to be like, Sis, you need to do

36:27

this, and you need to do that, and why don't you do this,

36:29

and why you're not charging this and you know,

36:31

like having girlfriends. And I'm

36:33

not even gonna tell y'all how I'm gonna be beating me up

36:35

over ticket prices and what

36:37

I need to be charging for stuff. I'm not even gonna tell

36:39

you. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna let that slide um

36:43

because get your girl, she begin

36:45

your girl. I just want you to know. But that's what girlfriends

36:48

are for, you know, to remind you of how

36:50

much you're worth. Speak.

36:53

Yes, prices also going up for as

36:55

to Channey Brown next year. Okay,

36:58

so whatever whatever, I'm

37:00

just saying, I'm just letting y'all

37:02

know. So

37:09

I want to ask about your book process,

37:11

so you get to the point where you

37:13

are like, I'm going to write a book, but

37:16

you obviously have this choice. You

37:18

could write about anything you want.

37:20

You could write in any form that you

37:23

want. Even with some of the content

37:25

that you wrote about. It could have been more of

37:27

a how to, it could have been more of

37:29

something that we're going to be very research

37:32

based. But you chose the form of

37:34

the memoir. And I just feel

37:36

en dear to that because I love

37:38

to read memoir and

37:41

it's also a similar form that

37:43

I chose from my book because I was sort of sitting

37:45

at the beginning of that book process, like

37:48

what do I really have in my hand? And

37:50

I have that I'm a storyteller. I have that

37:52

most strongly, and I would rather

37:55

lean towards that and see what stories will

37:57

come out. What was that moment like for you where you have

37:59

the choice suffm and you had the choice

38:01

of content, How did you decide

38:04

you would do the memoir and you would do the memoir?

38:07

Sort of through this lens of

38:09

black dignity actually pitched this book

38:12

like five years ago, at least five

38:14

years I've lost track now, but pre black

38:16

lives Matter, pre finastic

38:18

codes, pre pre

38:21

all the stuff that makes up are like daily

38:23

life experience right now and child those

38:25

polishers were like, um, so

38:27

this whole book is about a white girl who touched your hair?

38:30

Like is that would you like sitting on a

38:32

cliff when that happened? Like did

38:34

you almost get pushed off? You know? Like

38:37

where is where is the life and death

38:39

experience? You

38:42

know? Like? And I was okay,

38:45

so Child. By the time I circled

38:47

back to running

38:50

to prett a book and having an agent and get

38:52

my little posal together, I must have written

38:54

four or five proposals

38:56

where I was trying on different

38:58

voices like you just said, like is it's going to be the

39:00

how to? It's gonna be filled with research?

39:03

And Child, I was like, I would get started. I would

39:05

be like m hmm, but I am not a

39:07

historian that I would scrap

39:09

that started to when I'll be like, oh, but I'm

39:11

not a theologian, so I would

39:13

scrape that. But

39:17

I'm not an academic. I don't even know how to site

39:19

this. Uh you know what site?

39:22

I bring that word back? Yes, I

39:24

got nothing, so I

39:27

really You know what I really did was I

39:29

went back through my blog and took

39:31

note of all the posts

39:34

that I enjoyed writing. And we're

39:37

popular. Yeah, that's good. That's a good

39:39

balance popular and

39:42

the things you enjoyed, So

39:44

yeah, it's like flew out me.

39:47

And one of them was, um, a

39:49

post that's not super long that I did on Digeria

39:52

back then when she was the

39:54

black girl who got tossed around by the police at the swimming

39:56

pool. And I started

39:59

that out by pretending

40:02

that I was in the room when she

40:04

was getting her hair braided, about

40:07

her sitting between her auntie's knees and

40:10

hearing the click of her auntie's fingernails

40:12

braiding her hair down, and how

40:15

she got up and stretched, and how they took a break

40:17

and did you know whatever danced

40:19

around the room together, you know, and

40:22

then said, you know, she got dressed for this

40:24

pool party that she was all excited about

40:26

that she got her hair braided for, and

40:28

all of a sudden she was on the ground

40:31

in the grass with the police officer in

40:33

her back. And

40:36

girl that that post just came out

40:39

like like just my connection to her

40:42

as another black girl just made

40:44

that so easy to write

40:46

emotional but now to

40:49

write, you know, And it was one

40:51

of my most popular blog posts. And

40:53

that was when the lightbulb went on, like oh,

40:56

when I married, Like these small

40:59

experience says that most

41:02

black women can identify

41:04

with right to these larger

41:06

social issues. That's

41:09

when I've struck gold. And so ultimately

41:11

that's what I ended up trying to do. And then you know, when

41:13

Coates came out and I was like, oh,

41:16

well, if we can write about being a black man from the hood,

41:18

I think we should be able to write about being

41:20

a black girl surrounded by white folks.

41:22

That's what I think. That's

41:24

what I think, And so yeah, it really did unfold.

41:27

But it was a long process job. I easily

41:29

spent a year just writing proposals, trying

41:31

to figure out who I am as a writer. I think

41:33

I spent a long time on proposals too, because part

41:36

of the proposal process is this, like what's

41:38

my voice or what what am I anticipating

41:41

my voice is going to be? Because

41:43

I have to say even what I sent in as my proposal

41:46

was in theory what

41:49

this book was gonna be, but

41:52

how the book actually came out

41:55

that was its own thing. When I sat down

41:57

to actually write the book and was like, Oh,

42:00

you don't want to be that thing that

42:02

I wrote in here. You wanna

42:05

be something else, So I need to let you

42:07

be yourself. While I learned

42:09

to be myself. It was like an interesting,

42:13

interesting relationship with with

42:15

your book and with how in particular.

42:18

And you'll have to tell me if this is your experience to

42:20

in particular when you are writing these

42:22

personal stories of your own life

42:24

experience that there are some ways

42:26

that writing healed me, like sealed

42:29

up some places where I had

42:31

been wounded. There were some

42:34

places where it changed me, totally

42:36

transformed me in some

42:39

ways that I just couldn't even account

42:41

for until the book had been

42:43

out, and I was like, I'm somebody different than

42:45

I was when I first sat down to figure

42:48

out what this was going to be. I mean, I know you

42:50

are, we're right here as your book

42:52

is launching, But do you feel

42:55

some of that sort of transformation

42:58

in you as a write in your voice?

43:01

Do you feel any of that as you're thinking

43:03

back now on the writing process of your book.

43:05

I did, because I think my voice was very

43:08

teachery before, you know, because I had been doing

43:10

workshops. And even if you like I haven't

43:12

deleted any of my blog posts, if

43:14

you go back to the very beginning, they're very teacher

43:16

esque and like here's step

43:18

one or here's a great metaphor for how to think about

43:20

this or very

43:23

like come along on the journey and

43:25

girl, the closer we get to black lives matter, the

43:29

more that disappears. But

43:37

then in writing the book, I think what

43:39

was transformative for me was making

43:42

declarative sentences because

43:47

I had to think about whether or not I would

43:49

still be standing by those declarative sentences

43:52

a year from now or two years from

43:54

now or three years from now. And so I want

43:56

to get myself grace and that there may be things

43:58

in this book that I you know, I had to change ten years

44:01

from now and be like, you know what, that's what I thought then.

44:03

But I have grown, I have evolved. But on the

44:05

whole, you know, I had to really ask

44:07

myself, do I find white people exhausting?

44:10

Yes? I do? And you know that

44:12

just had to be a sentence in the book, but it was it

44:14

was like that declarative sentence,

44:16

like this is what I think today,

44:20

knowing what I know, right, knowing

44:23

what I know, this is what I think today?

44:26

Yeah, that was that was transformative for

44:28

me to think about

44:30

what I believe, what I'm willing to declare.

44:33

I love the way you're describing this, that

44:35

declarative moment, because I think that is

44:37

also a moment of reminding

44:40

ourselves of our dignity when

44:43

we are able to make these

44:45

statements with no equivocations, with

44:48

no apologies, that this

44:51

is what it is, this is how

44:54

it happened, how it happens like

44:56

this period, and

44:59

because used to be there exactly

45:02

exactly, there's a lot of power

45:04

to that. I want to ask along those

45:07

lines. You have a whole chapter

45:09

on creative anger in

45:12

this book, which I love so much

45:14

because within the last month,

45:16

in my various conversations with black women,

45:19

some of it has been with just professionally

45:21

other women who are author, speaker,

45:24

you know, performer world, and some of it has

45:26

just been with girlfriends. And there

45:28

are so many moments that the phrase, well,

45:31

I was going to do this or I was going to say

45:33

this, but I didn't want to be that angry

45:37

black angry black woman. And

45:40

I used to I used to fight against

45:42

it, you know, like, hey, hey,

45:45

I am not that angry

45:47

black woman. I can you

45:49

know, communicate these things and do these

45:52

things without you know, roaring

45:54

about everything. I can do it. And

45:56

now I'm like, sometimes I am

46:00

that's angry black woman, and

46:03

I have a right to

46:06

be angry. It

46:08

is not wrong or bad

46:11

for me to be angry and for me to express

46:14

my anger. So yes, sometimes

46:17

I am an angry Black woman, and

46:20

sometimes I'm hurt and I'm disappointed,

46:22

and that by itself makes

46:24

me mad about whatever the injustice

46:27

is that has happened. But it's

46:30

interesting to me that many of us, as

46:32

black women are still trying to yes,

46:35

yes to undo that thing that we

46:38

learned. And I loved that in this chapter, which

46:40

I want y'all to check out Austin's book, because

46:43

you talked about how that anger can be useful,

46:45

and I love just the idea of creative anger talk

46:48

to me more so, I was so

46:50

in college. I was definitely that girl who

46:52

was like, I don't I don't think I even thought

46:55

about myself as being angry. It wasn't even that I put

46:57

anger away. It was just so communicated

46:59

to me that you have to speak in a certain way in order

47:02

for white folks to hear you, that I totally

47:04

bypassed my own emotional needs,

47:07

you know, and went right to, Okay,

47:09

well, getting this fixed is more important, right,

47:12

So let me go ahead and

47:14

talk about maybe how much I'm hurting

47:17

or you know what I mean, Like, let may be sad

47:20

or like, let me try on any other emotion

47:22

basically other than anger, since you

47:25

know anger will be dismissed

47:27

and I'd be angry. I'd

47:31

be angry and

47:34

rightfully so so that was something

47:36

that like, I have been thinking about again, especially

47:38

through like Black Lives Matter and

47:41

all these videos and the number of times that I

47:43

find myself angry on a very regular basis.

47:46

And I was like, you know what, I think I'm kind of intimate

47:48

with my anger. Like we we spend

47:50

a lot of time together, you know, we'd

47:53

be sitting on the couch and things anger.

47:59

Would you like, pup anger,

48:02

get you a snack? And

48:06

so so I picked up Sister Outsider,

48:08

which was a book that I had been meaning to read forever,

48:11

finally got around to it and got to uses

48:14

of Anger. The essay called uses his Anger, and

48:16

I was like, what

48:19

when I say revelation and

48:22

I'm almost I'm like almost

48:24

shamed to be like it was a revelation, but

48:26

it was I might just be honest, it was a revelation

48:29

to me. When Audrey Lord

48:32

says, and forgive me for paraphrasing

48:34

here, but when she says, anger

48:38

is evidence that an injustice

48:41

has occurred, Like, anger

48:43

is evidence that something's not right

48:45

here, and it can be fuel

48:47

when channeled correctly, it can

48:49

be fuel for making

48:52

things right. Yeah, and

48:54

I was like, yeah, okay,

48:59

I I had to really pause and think

49:02

about how how many

49:04

things black folks, black women

49:07

create that started off

49:10

with anger, Like

49:12

you know what I'm saying, Like I'm real upset

49:15

that all these black girl ballerinas

49:18

out here wearing nude whatever

49:20

ain't nude for them. You know what I'm saying.

49:23

Somebody got a little upset, and so some black

49:25

girl said, you know what, we're gonna fix that, and

49:28

we don't. We gonna get some black girl

49:30

nude jades. That's what we're gonna do. Yes,

49:33

you know what, Like there's so many things

49:36

we just be like, I'm tired of being left out. I'm

49:38

tired of being unseen. I'm tired. I'm

49:40

tired. I'm tired. Right, the whole Black

49:43

Lives Matter organizing is essentially

49:46

rooted in anger and not just anger of

49:49

and dignity and a whole lot of other things.

49:51

But we are about to sit here and pretend like we

49:53

wasn't also angry about Trey

49:56

Ron and about Zimmerman

49:58

getting off. You know what I'm saying, Like we

50:01

go sit around here and pretend like anger

50:03

doesn't also fuel action, and

50:06

so yeah, so I think about anger

50:08

very very differently. And even when

50:10

I wrote that chapter, girl, I started I

50:12

started to try to document even

50:15

in my own life, things that I did

50:17

that initially were out of anger. M

50:20

So which I wrote that we're initially

50:23

out of anger? What groups I started

50:25

on my college campus because I was angry

50:27

about something that happened, You know what

50:29

meetings I attended because we

50:32

were angry about an injustice

50:34

or a crisis or you know what I'm

50:36

saying. And I was like, my life is filled

50:39

with examples of the usefulness

50:42

of anger, but I need

50:44

Audrey Lord in order to like bring

50:47

that into my conscience. You know, so

50:50

powerful. I think it's so powerful to be able

50:52

to take something that we learned

50:55

to diminish, that

50:58

we learned to compartmentalize, sit

51:00

and even even like the image

51:03

of you saying, like me and anger

51:05

of friends we we hang out were

51:08

sort of like we get to invite these parts

51:10

of ourselves that we were told to shut

51:13

out and shut down and not acknowledge

51:15

and not love because the first

51:18

thing we're told, especially as black

51:20

women, is that we're being divisive, that

51:22

we're not being unifying, that this is

51:25

the opposite of love, right like, the

51:27

world is quick to tell us why

51:29

our anger is destructive and

51:32

only destructive. And so

51:34

it was a real gift to my life for

51:38

Audrey to say to me, not so

51:40

not so like it could be if you allow it to

51:43

be. It could be, but it

51:45

didn't have to be. It is not. And your

51:47

anger is not inherently bad.

51:50

That's so good and so healing, you

51:52

know, Like hearing you repeat that right

51:55

now, it's healing for me to

51:57

hear, and I think it's going to be healing for so many

51:59

people listening too. And one

52:01

of the things I wanted to bring up

52:03

that I loved in your book is you you described

52:07

justice work as holy and

52:10

I love that because it's so true.

52:13

It's so true. If we are in

52:16

whatever you know, arena space,

52:18

you know, whatever area we find ourselves

52:21

in, if we are using our voice,

52:23

using our resources, using our

52:25

influence to help see

52:28

justice, in particular for people who

52:30

have been marginalized and have been oppressed,

52:33

that that is holy work. I think

52:35

that's so important. It's such transformative.

52:39

I mean it transforms you,

52:42

It transforms the other, It transforms

52:45

relationships, It transforms your worldview,

52:48

it transforms your theology like

52:50

nothing stays the same. It's

52:53

such holy intimate

52:56

work, UM, because

52:59

it forces you to ask some new questions

53:02

about yourself, about your

53:04

people, about your God, about your community.

53:07

You know, it's and I think

53:09

that's why so I used to UM.

53:12

I used to lead short term mission trips on the

53:14

West Side of Chicago and child,

53:17

you know, I did my best to you know, shed

53:20

some light. Um. It

53:23

was mostly teenagers, you know. UM.

53:26

And I had this one parent who

53:29

we used to give out surveys

53:31

at the end and I was

53:33

going through the surveys and all the surveys

53:36

said like parent or child or whatever, and so the parents

53:38

had written this was really interesting.

53:42

But I'm concerned that you have opened

53:44

Pandora's Box for my child.

53:47

I was like, did I did

53:49

I open it? Or it

53:51

didn't open? I'm trying to right,

53:54

and you know, girl, I couldn't even be offended.

53:57

Like that seems like a really

53:59

act your metaphor like it, Yeah,

54:04

like your child is gonna be asking all kinds

54:06

of new questions. Your child is gonna look at the news.

54:08

Differently your child is gonna listen to the

54:10

pastor differently your child is gonna be sitting at your

54:12

dining room table asking some new questions.

54:15

Like you're right, I think I did just

54:17

open and

54:19

then you were like, good luck with that, see

54:28

you next summer. But

54:31

yeah, I continue to be intrigued

54:34

by the ways that I am changed

54:36

by the work that I do, by the

54:38

people that I encounter, by this

54:41

new language, by the ways

54:43

of reading the word, the prayers

54:46

that I pray. You know, like I understand

54:49

why people resisted. I understand why people

54:51

resistant, and I understand why other folks trying to contain

54:53

it so that it's only gender justice

54:56

or only justice for black folks,

54:58

or only and like, I

55:01

understand because justice

55:04

for one eventually invites

55:06

the question justice for who else? And

55:09

it becomes transformative, very

55:12

very quickly. So I do. I think it is really

55:14

holy worked. The title of your book

55:16

being I'm Still here, which I love

55:19

that. And something about being

55:22

here is being present, it's

55:24

being whole, it is

55:27

fighting for justice and

55:30

joy. Yes, what

55:32

does your process look

55:34

like to remain whole

55:38

as you sometimes are? You're

55:41

speaking such a direct truth

55:43

to people and sometimes

55:46

you may be in a space where you're saying that truth

55:48

to someone who has not been willing

55:50

to let that in, and

55:53

that makes them act

55:55

out because they don't even they're

55:58

like, well, I don't know how to process that, or I'm

56:00

thinking I might know how and I don't want to.

56:03

So this is how I respond to that. I've

56:05

most two part question. One, how

56:08

in the face of that, in the face

56:10

of even when you're on Twitter,

56:13

you're speaking about things

56:15

that happen repeatedly, you're watching

56:18

what happens to the black body in violence

56:21

repeatedly. Right, how

56:23

do you find wholeness

56:27

and healing as this is

56:29

a part of your work as a practitioner. And

56:32

then what would you say

56:34

for for black people and

56:37

maybe people of color in general that are in

56:39

predominantly white space, that

56:41

are facing racism every day, that

56:43

are facing some head

56:46

on aggressions every

56:48

day? How can black

56:51

people and people of color remain whole and healed

56:53

in the process too. So,

56:56

so I think the first answer for me personally

56:59

changes then this season and

57:01

based on what's happening. And I know that's

57:03

like cheating, but

57:05

it's the I'm learning, it's the truth. Like I'm

57:08

a human being, and so, um,

57:10

my son it was just born about

57:13

seven months ago, and my ability to

57:15

read headlines has declined sharply,

57:18

or all I can read is the headline. So I have

57:21

a vague idea of what's happening, but I cannot open

57:23

the story. I can't watch the video, like,

57:26

I just can't. I can't do it. I'm so

57:28

tender right now, and

57:31

it's spending so much time thinking about his

57:33

life and his future and what I want for him.

57:36

And it's too closely linked, you

57:38

know what I mean, to like read that story and

57:40

to try to resist the thought

57:43

that I might have to insert my son's name and

57:45

that story like it's just too it's too

57:47

close right now. And so

57:49

I find myself staying aware of what's

57:52

happening, but not diving into it

57:54

right now. UM, knowing that

57:56

there are other black women and other black folks

57:58

who can food space

58:01

and who do have you know, and so part

58:04

of it is realizing that I'm not the only voice

58:06

I out here speaking about race and justice,

58:08

you know what I mean. Um, there are other

58:10

times when um, like when did Gerry

58:13

Beckton happened? I just cried and

58:15

I said, thought my body needed like my body just needed

58:17

to cry, and they need to be honest

58:20

about my connection to the

58:22

offense that she suffered, UM

58:25

as she laid on that ground and cried for her mother

58:27

and embarrassment and then shame and

58:30

the me like I just so connected

58:33

with that sound and her voice right,

58:35

the desperation and her voice for that to come

58:38

to an end, for somebody to come rescue her, for

58:40

somebody to come protect her. UM. And

58:42

so in that instance, why I could do was cry. Obviously,

58:45

writing is you know, UM,

58:47

often how I try and process and make

58:49

sense and we assert dignity. UM.

58:52

After Charleston, I had to go back to

58:54

my home church because I was so devastated

58:57

by my fear of walking into a church

59:00

that I was like, you know what, I'm not even

59:02

just gonna go to any church like that day, I just I

59:04

went to a church. UM that that weekend

59:07

I fought. The weekend I went back to my home

59:09

church with my um, my father. And

59:11

so it's it's it's spending a lot of

59:14

time being self aware. I think if I had to

59:16

boil down, being aware of what I

59:18

need, being aware of how much of

59:20

the pain and I can contain UM.

59:23

And then figuring out how to release that, whether

59:25

that's through writing or through a conversation with a girlfriend

59:28

or finding each other on Twitter or you

59:30

know what I mean, Like I feel like we've done We've

59:32

figured out some new ways to take

59:35

each other. You know. Um, I can't

59:37

even remember which verdict it was, but I remember

59:40

black Twitter was basically like, Okay,

59:42

so all day today while we were waiting for this

59:44

verdict, We're gonna drink water, We're gonna

59:46

have tissues ready we got do you know what

59:48

I mean? But there was like a checklist. We

59:51

all knew we was gonna be sit in front of the TV waiting

59:53

for this verdict to come through. And

59:55

so I just really appreciate the ways

59:57

that we're learning how to ass

1:00:00

us through this and not just pretending

1:00:02

like we're immune from the work. And then,

1:00:05

for um, the second happier question,

1:00:07

So I have the small team

1:00:09

time, little section in the book called how

1:00:12

to Survive Racism and an organization

1:00:14

that claims to be anti racist speak

1:00:17

a word today because

1:00:20

so often, first of all, we do be trying,

1:00:22

like we do, we do be trying to let

1:00:24

the organizations and

1:00:26

figure out who's for real about

1:00:29

this inclusion life you know, and

1:00:32

we still get disappointed because it's

1:00:35

racism, even at these organizations that

1:00:37

claim to want anti racism and racial organitiation

1:00:39

and whatever I want to call it um,

1:00:42

and it's it's rough out here.

1:00:45

And so a few things that come to mind.

1:00:47

One is to

1:00:50

not go into the organization believing

1:00:52

that you have to change everything, because

1:00:55

there's something about even that language

1:00:57

where because we want

1:00:59

to particie to page right, we want to participate

1:01:01

in change, we want to be a part of movements, we

1:01:04

want to be a part of doing something

1:01:06

good. And so when folks start using

1:01:08

that language, we get really attracted to it

1:01:11

and then find out that it's all on us and

1:01:13

that ain't right. An right, it

1:01:15

ain't right. That ain't the way to

1:01:17

change the organization UM. And

1:01:20

so so that would be one another one I would

1:01:22

say to spend your like first year

1:01:24

trying to find your allies. I don't

1:01:26

do nothing and the way until

1:01:31

you figure out who your allies

1:01:33

really are, who's coming at good

1:01:36

funding, who you know,

1:01:38

who called you when the latest crisis

1:01:40

happened, who brought you some food,

1:01:43

who wrote a post on their own website,

1:01:45

who goes hard on Facebook? You know what I'm

1:01:47

saying, like, who is I really living this life?

1:01:50

That you can connect with um

1:01:52

so that you're not doing this work by yourself, right,

1:01:55

and build up your little coalition so that you're

1:01:57

not alone. And if you find

1:01:59

that you are alone, I'm gonna for you to get

1:02:01

out. I don't want you to be in the

1:02:03

sunken place. Don't be in the sunken

1:02:06

place, y'all please? Now

1:02:09

that comes with the game plan, right, most of

1:02:11

us cannot just be out here quitting our jobs when

1:02:13

somebody makes us upset. I understand that that's not

1:02:15

what I'm saying, But there isn't such things

1:02:17

that exist strategy. How many for you to

1:02:20

be out here looking for this new job, going

1:02:22

to be thinking about this entrepreneurship life.

1:02:25

I'm gonna need for you to be like, you

1:02:27

know, every organization ain't like the one

1:02:29

you end. So maybe we can hop over to somebody

1:02:31

else who's you know, starting networking

1:02:34

stuff? You know where might you

1:02:36

be safer? You know where

1:02:38

might you just be more safe and

1:02:41

and be ready and willing and willing

1:02:43

to move Especially with our generation

1:02:45

child we at about to retire from

1:02:47

no place after being there for thirty some years. That's

1:02:50

just not the that's not the life we live in. And

1:02:52

since that's the reality right now,

1:02:55

that comes with some hard things too. But the

1:02:57

beautiful thing about that is that you

1:02:59

can't move. That's not unusual, that's

1:03:01

not weird. And nobody's gonna look at your resume and be

1:03:04

like, oh, you ain't working no place for twenty years.

1:03:06

You know, I don't know what they expects all that, And

1:03:09

so it gives some freedom to that.

1:03:11

If you can see that the organization has

1:03:13

gone as far as it's willing to go, or you

1:03:15

are being too harmed, then

1:03:18

it might be time to make that move. Oh that's

1:03:20

some good advice come through through

1:03:24

well, Austin. Please tell the people, first

1:03:26

of all, how they can get a hope

1:03:29

to this book because the book is out now.

1:03:31

I know y'all can't see me, but I'm doing my out now

1:03:34

hands I'm blinking my hands

1:03:36

out. Now. You can

1:03:39

get this book wherever books be at

1:03:42

books? Where can people getting

1:03:44

these things? Where can they where can

1:03:46

they learn more about you as well?

1:03:48

If they want to follow you and learn

1:03:51

more from you as well as access this

1:03:53

book? What are the things? Tell me to things? So

1:03:56

any place you like to get your books. Please

1:03:59

feel free to get this look. I personally

1:04:01

would love if you asked their local independent

1:04:03

bookstore to bring this book

1:04:06

in or ordered it from them. Um,

1:04:08

that would be amazing. But if you got to get your

1:04:10

Amazon on you know what I'm saying, do

1:04:13

you boo um?

1:04:15

And then I've

1:04:18

got that good website Austin

1:04:20

Channing dot com. And then we already

1:04:22

talked about how much I love the twitters, which

1:04:25

is at Austin Channing. I also

1:04:27

do have Instagram also at

1:04:29

Austin Channing. And then my Facebook

1:04:32

is my whole name, Austin Channing Brown.

1:04:41

This week's edition of Give

1:04:43

Her a Crown a segment

1:04:45

in which I like to give a shout out

1:04:48

to a woman of color that is

1:04:50

inspiring me doing amazing

1:04:52

work in the world. So this week

1:04:55

I want to give a special shout out to Tamika

1:04:57

Mallory and I want to give her a Crown because,

1:05:00

as as we are watching UH, such

1:05:03

a needed UH and continued

1:05:05

global uprising happen in America

1:05:09

as a part of the Black Lives Matter movement

1:05:11

and as a part of seeing racial

1:05:13

justice happened for black people in America.

1:05:15

Tamica Mallory is one of the voices and

1:05:18

leaders at the front line of

1:05:20

this movement. She is using her voice,

1:05:22

using her body to community

1:05:25

organized to be an activist. I

1:05:27

want to give a shout out to her organization Until

1:05:30

Freedom, if you're looking for an organization

1:05:32

to give to that is doing frontline

1:05:34

justice work to not only ensure

1:05:37

that all black lives matter, but especially

1:05:40

to ensure that the names of the black

1:05:42

women and black trans women whose lives

1:05:44

have been lost as well are continued

1:05:46

to be uplifted and that justice is served

1:05:49

for them as well. So Jamica Mallory,

1:05:51

Let's give Her a Crown Part

1:06:04

with Amina Brown is produced by Matt Owen

1:06:07

for Sole Graffiti Productions as

1:06:09

a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network

1:06:11

in partnership with I Heart Radio. Thanks

1:06:14

for listening and don't forget to subscribe,

1:06:16

rate, and review the podcast.